Have you ever competed against prison labor wages on your own job? I have

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.alternet.org/world/151732/21st-century_slaves%3A_how_corporations_exploit_prison_labor/?page=entire

21st-Century Slaves: How Corporations Exploit Prison Labor

In the eyes of the corporation, inmate labor is a brilliant strategy in the eternal quest to maximize profit.

July 21, 2011 |

There is one group of American workers so disenfranchised that corporations are able to get away with paying them wages that rival those of third-world sweatshops. These laborers have been legally stripped of their political, economic and social rights and ultimately relegated to second-class citizens. They are banned from unionizing, violently silenced from speaking out and forced to work for little to no wages. This marginalization renders them practically invisible, as they are kept hidden from society with no available recourse to improve their circumstances or change their plight.

They are the 2.3 million American prisoners locked behind bars where we cannot see or hear them. And they are modern-day slaves of the 21st century.

Private companies have long understood that prison labor can be as profitable as sweatshop workers in third-world countries with the added benefit of staying closer to home. Take Escod Industries, which in in the 1990s abandoned plans to open operations in Mexico and instead "moved to South Carolina, because the wages of American prisoners undercut those of de-unionized Mexican sweatshop workers," reports Josh Levine in a 1999 article that appeared in Perpective Magazine. The move was fueled by the state, which gave a $250,000 "equipment subsidy" to Escod along with industrial space at below-market rent. Other examples listed by Gordon Lafer in the American Prospect include Ohio's Honda supplier, which "pays its prison workers $2 an hour for the same work for which the UAW has fought for decades to be paid $20 to $30 an hour. Konica, which has hired prisoners to repair its copiers for less than 50 cents an hour. And in Oregon, where private companies can “lease” prisoners at a bargain price of $3 a day."

[TBMASE]

1. How are these people supposed to transition back to society

or make any money at all if they are locked away and the only jobs available are in the prison laundry or kitchen?

Should they be paid that same as a normal worker who isn't supported by the taxpayers with housing, food and medical needs being met while incarcerated? A privatized prison system, might pay them $30/hr but then it would charge them for room and board

My BIL is in prison, he works his jobs to have money for the Canteen so he's not completely being supported by the family the luxery items he's allowed to have.

[NNN0LHI]

2. Did your BIL have a good paying job before he went to prison?

[TBMASE]

5. yes, he did

made a BIG, BIIIIIG mistake.

He's not being forced to work, he WANTS to work

[Fumesucker]

3. That would be a reasonable argument if we had a reasonable number of people in prison..

The incarceration rate in the USA is seven times that of Canada and the highest in the world, higher than China, higher than anyone, that is clearly not a reasonable rate of incarceration.

The land of the free has five percent of the population of the world and twenty five percent of the prisoners.

[TBMASE]

4. What does the rate of incarceration have to do with anything

If the laws are the reason they are in jail, then change the laws.

[Fumesucker]

10. They laws are written the way they are because people are profiting from them they way they are.

And you may have noticed that every time some here talk of perhaps lightening the drug war for instance a lot of others come and tell us how that is impossible right now, wait until after the election, blah, blah, blah, rinse and repeat..

[TBMASE]

13. Our prisons aren't overcrowded with pot smokers

so what drugs are you talking about? Meth? Crack? Heroin?

The truth is, there aren't vast numbers of people in prison because of simple posession

[Fumesucker]

20. Then pray tell why does the US have an incarceration rate seven times that of Canada?

Are Americans seven times as criminal as Canadians?

[TBMASE]

23. It's not because of Marijuana posession

there are plenty of statistics out there for what people are in for. The last study I saw had 200 people who were actually sentenced to jail time for posession and of that, something like 80 actually saw the inside of a prison

if you're caught with pot that isn't measured in pounds, you're not going to prison

[Fumesucker]

26. You didn't answer the question..

Why does the US have an incarceration rate seven times that of Canada?

Is it that Americans are seven times as criminal as Canadians?

Or could it be that there is a profit motive in locking people up in the USA that doesn't exist in Canada?

[TBMASE]

32. Depends on the crime, doesn't it?

Our gun crime rate is higher...our robbery rate is higher.

If you want to make believe it's because pot smokers are out trying to get a fix you're wrong...NOW, if you want to talk about Meth, Coke and Heroin it would make more sense.

Surely you're not trying to decriminalize the drugs that ARE the major problems, are you?

[Fumesucker]

36. You refuse to answer the question..

Do you think Americans are seven times as criminal as Canadians?

The two biggest drug problems in the USA are tobacco and alcohol, tobacco alone kills close to a half million Americans each year and another twenty five thousand die in alcohol fueled car crashes.

http://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/publications/aag/osh.htm

Tobacco use is the single most preventable cause of disease, disability, and death in the United States. Each year, an estimated 443,000 people die prematurely from smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke, and another 8.6 million live with a serious illness caused by smoking. Despite these risks, approximately 46.6 million U.S. adults smoke cigarettes. Smokeless tobacco, cigars, and pipes also have deadly consequences, including lung, larynx, esophageal, and oral cancers.

[TBMASE]

42. yeah, I did a paper on the legalization of weed back in college

I know the argument.

You want weed growers and smokers to not face jail time...great. Now, what % of the prison population is associated ONLY with Marijuana related crimes....trafficking, growing

[EOTE]

71. You're very capable of doing this research on your own?

Or is it that you already have and are fine with it? Either way, it reflects very poorly on you.

INTERVIEWER

I've been told that the percentage of marijuana in prison is a very small percentage of the total number of people in prison for other drug offenses.

ERIC SCHLOSSER

It's a pretty large number, in the sense that, certainly, in the federal system, about one out of every six federal inmates is in federal prison for marijuana. That's a very large number. There are more people now in federal prison for marijuana offenses than for violent offenses. Out of the 1.1 million people in American prisons, the marijuana offenders are not the majority. But there are a lot of them. And certainly, at a time when there's a shortage of prison space and when murderers are serving on average about six years in prison, it seems absurd to have non-violent marijuana offenders locked up in those large numbers.

INTERVIEWER

What kind of marijuana offenders are we talking about?



ERIC SCHLOSSER

Most of them are marijuana growers and marijuana dealers, although there are instances of people being put away for remarkably small amounts of marijuana. I've come across more than one case of people getting life without parole for a joint or for less than a joint. They tend to be habitual offenders and that's their third strike, but that's still a very severe punishment for possessing a joint.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/interviews/schlosser.html

So you think this is all just fine and dandy, huh? That's disgusting.

[canuckledragger]

30. you want to post some links to those statistics?

[chervilant]

70. hmm...

I wonder if you culled those statistics from the online .pdf file posted by the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), a government agency. If so, you failed to note that the '200' (actually 186) represented 2.3 percent of all drug defendants sentenced in federal court for marijuana crimes in 2001. Of these drug defendants—actually, the 174 who were known to have received sentences for simple possession—only 63 (not 80) served time behind bars.

Some might say that's 63 too many. Others might ask why cite statistics more than a decade old? Others might ask, "what about the legislation passed in 2010 that now makes DUID (Driving Under the Influence of Drugs) another avenue for incarcerating US citizens who might have smoked a doobie days or even weeks prior to the day they are captured by federally subsidized 'roving DUI patrols.'

Fifteen states have passed laws clarifying that the presence of any illegal drug in a driver’s body is per se evidence of impaired driving, despite the fact that "cannabis metabolites can remain detectable in the urine for up to 100 days or longer for a regular cannabis consumer and up to fifteen days for the casual consumer."

I think you are supporting a draconian system with a history of abuses, including the incarceration of people who've done little more than smoke a doobie they got from a friend (as has happened to the son of a close personal friend).

[Egalitarian Thug]

17. You are laboring under a false premise. America abandoned even the pretense of

"transitioning back into society" or rehabilitation as it was once known, long ago.

Once you're in the system, you're in for life (unless you were born into the ruling class and did something so terrible or blatant that gaol was required to maintain appearances). There is no fresh start, you will never "pay your debt", you are a convict for life, period.

[TBMASE]

27. well then, let's stop all counciling and education programs too

I mean, if their life is over why do anything to help them change

[Egalitarian Thug]

57. Or, how about fixing the system? How about reversing the criminalization of merely

living? How about reserving incarceration for the very few cases where it is the only option?

I was, in my reply, pointing out what is, not proposing anything. I will never accept merely throwing up my hands and giving up, as you imply.

[TBMASE]

60. Have you been sent to prison for living?

[Egalitarian Thug]

74. No, but the fact that I, and you, and every American breaks the law every day

effectively circumvents the legal foundations of our "justice" system. People are charged and convicted every day for nothing more than association, being in the wrong place, exercising their rights, or simply being poor.

[TBMASE]

75. Maybe in your mind

not in real life

[Egalitarian Thug]

76. Maybe not in your mind, but in real life,

every day, in every part of the nation. Enjoy your fantasy.

[Th1onein]

54. Many prisons used to be self-supporting

By that I mean that they did not compete with workers outside of prison, but engaged in work that supported the needs of the prisoners, themselves. They grew their own food, etc. Nowadays, private companies are making a killing off of taxpayers by charging for running prisons, and making a profit by cutting the costs of running the prisons, AND leasing out the prisoners' labor, and making a profit off of it, as well.

I don't see a problem with prisoners working to support their own expenses, and prisons being self-sufficient. I DO see a problem with private prisons competing with workers by paying slave wages to prisoners, and reaping a profit from those slaves.

[Marrah_G]

66. The saving on wages is not going to the taxpayers

It is going to the companies that are hiring the cheap imprisoned workers.

Society is not benefiting from this.

[Angry Dragon]

6. Slave labor

[TBMASE]

7. They have a CHOICE to work or not

Slaves do not have a choice nor are they paid for their labor

[Angry Dragon]

8. When you have a private company running the prison

then it becomes slave labor

[TBMASE]

9. Why?

My BIL is in a private prison facility, he prefers it to state run facilities because they are treated better, have more access to purchase property and more activities to kill time.
AND they have better job opportunities in a much less crowded environment.

He WANTS to work as to many of the people he's in with. Those who don't WANT to work, don't HAVE to work

[Fumesucker]

11. Because the prisoners are not free to take other jobs, not free to leave..

When you are not free and you are working you are a slave..

[randome]

12. Sounds like you are 'free to leave' by choosing not to work.

[Fumesucker]

19. You are punished for not working, that's not freedom..

See post #16..

[TBMASE]

22. No, you don't get privileges that are to be earned

my BIL has 15 years in the system you know what his major grievences are since leaving a State run facility for a privately run one? That he can't get a particular type of tea and his prison issue underwear sucks

[Fumesucker]

24. You can call it what you want..

The net effect is that you are punished if you don't work.

Orwell wrote some excellent handbooks for biased political rhetoric.

[TBMASE]

34. Punished by doing the time you were sentenced to

in a facility you're supposed to be serving in?

My BIL got 40 years for 2nd Degree Murder, if he didn't work he'd do 40 years in a Max Facility, probably with a 23hr lockdown like he had his first couple of years....

how is it being punished when the only thing you're being forced to do is serve the sentence you were given?

[Th1onein]

55. You just blasted a hole in your own argument that it is not slave labor

Your BIL is being FORCED to work: "If he didn't work he'd do 40 years in a Max Facility, probably with a 23hr lockdown like he had his first couple of years." That is slave labor. He has a "choice," but it's not a good one. He can choose not to work for slave wages, but look at the price he would have to pay. He is being forced to work for slave wages so that he can have better living conditions while he is forcibly incarcerated.

And, I'll just bet that his only grievances are not about tea, etc.

The issue here is not about the conditions he lives in, his grievances, or the great way a private prison treats him. The issue is that this practice of slave labor hurts people, workers, who did NOTHING wrong, and committed NO CRIME. Even if you say that your BIL should pay for his crime, it doesn't mean that innocent workers should also pay for his crime by losing their wages.

[TBMASE]

56. He's being forced to be in jail, not to work

one of the benefits of working is they accrue Good Time more quickly, which is a form of compensation

Those jobs wouldn't be in the US at all if not being done by prisoners. Soooo, we can have a guy in mexico doing them or we can have a prisoner in the US doing them

I suppose we could raise taxes on the same people you claim are being hurt by those jobs so the states could operate a better prison

[Th1onein]

59. Nope, wrong again.

He is being forced to work, or stay in jail longer. Slave labor, by any other name.

As to your other argument, that we would have to raise taxes on people if we paid the prisoners more than slave wages, wrong again. The only people it hurts by stopping this practice is the company that pays the slave labor. They'd actually have to pay a minimum wage.

As for the jobs going overseas, well, simply put, if they CAN be done here, then they SHOULD be done here, and the workers should be paid minimum wage.

[TBMASE]

14. They are free to take other jobs in the prison or not work at all

that's freedom of choice which a slave doesn't have

[NNN0LHI]

16. From the article

"If they refuse to work, they are moved to disciplinary housing and lose canteen privileges" along with "good time credit that reduces their sentences,” reports Chris Levister. To top it off, Abe Louise Young reports in The Nation that the federal government subsidizes the use of inmate labor by private companies through lucrative tax write-offs. Under the Work Opportunity Tax Credit (WOTC), private-sector employers receive a tax credit of $2,400 for every work release inmate they employ as a reward for hiring “risky target groups” and they can "earn back up to 40 percent of the wages they pay annually to target group workers."

-------------------------------

If you refuse to work you have to serve more time. Sounds like slave labor to me.

[Egalitarian Thug]

18. Thank you. +1. n/t

[TBMASE]

21. Guess what? If you refuse to take classes or do counciling

you lose those privileges too. That's why they are called privileges, you have to earn them.

You're not serving MORE TIME by not working, you're not accruing good behavior days , which reduce your sentence, at a rate comparable to those who ARE working.

[Marrah_G]

68. That is serving more time. They just word it differently.

After reading all your posts it's difficult to understand why you are so adamantly defending these companies. I'm left scratching my head.

[Angry Dragon]

15. Perhaps you could tell me who benefits the most

from this arrangement

The business, the prison, the prisoner??

Does he work off-site??

Does the business pay going rate??
If not then it gives them an unfair advantage over others and forces down the going rate which effects all workers.

[Tsiyu]

28. Funny how some of the same folks bemoaning illegal immigrants'

undercutting American workers (by accepting substandard wages thus driving down the pay for legal workers) are perfectly fine with for-profit prisons doing the same thing.

We need more decent jobs in this country. Job creation is a major theme of this election. But we subsidize corporations who refuse to create decent jobs and that instead pay pennies on the dollar to a captive workforce?

Wow. Cognitive dissonance on a grand scale.

[Angry Dragon]

45. Is your last line referring to me??

[Tsiyu]

47. Not at all

I liked your questions.

[Angry Dragon]

48. Okay ....... was just making sure

I have many questions

[TBMASE]

29. Well, the taxpayers benefit from it

they get a reduced cost
the prisoners benefit, they get to make some money, earn good time, learn a skill and kill time
the business benefits, they don't have to move work overseas and they can compete with companies that DO move jobs overseas


The company has already decided it's not going to pay the going rate...if they can have the work done in India or Mexico, they'll do it there

and I don't see why you would want convicted murderers working OFF SITE

[Fumesucker]

31. The taxpayers do not benefit from incarcerating more people than necessary..

And that is exactly what's happening unless you think Americans are seven times as criminally minded as Canadians.

[TBMASE]

35. They don't? Which prisoners do you want on the street

lets see your list

[Fumesucker]

37. Evidently you think Americans are seven times as criminal as Canadians..

I'd start with your BIL...

[TBMASE]

38. a Convicted Murderer?

Nice thinking

Seriously, lets see the list of people you think shouldn't be in prison

[Fumesucker]

39. When you answer my question then I will consider answering yours..

Do you think Americans are seven times as criminal as Canadians?

[TBMASE]

40. whatever, I answered your question

you're obviously going to whine about system you don't really know anything about.

If you think the prison system is full of a bunch of pot smoking college kids who got prison time for an ounce of weed you can go on making believe it's true.

You're not going to prison unless the weed you have measures in pounds..

[Fumesucker]

43. I too have a relative that has done time..

As has my next door neighbor, he did fifteen years, we talk about his experiences fairly often.

My son in law's father was the administrator of the county jail, we talked about the legal system quite often, he told me several times how many people he had locked up that had no business being there, when he passed away he actually had several former prisoners come to his memorial service because he treated them so decently.

I'm also acquainted with our local district attorney since we were band parents together when our kids were in HS, I've heard the same from him, we lock up more people than we really need to and it's counterproductive.

And you did not say whether or not you think Americans are seven times as criminal as Canadians..

[TBMASE]

52. County Jail is a whole different world from prison

and if he's locking up people than we need to, address it with him

And yes, americans are 7 times more criminal than canadians...now what

[Fumesucker]

53. You have a link to prove your claim that Americans are seven times as criminal as Canadians?

[lunatica]

65. Bullshit

Not once have you provided a link to back up your assertions, yet you're trying to come across as an expert with all kinds of 'facts' about prison labor and how wonderful they're treated. You must think you're dealing with idiocrats who believe everything they're told except that water is good for plants.

You sounds like your BIL is in some kind of country club.

[TBMASE]

69. yes, because convicted murderers

with a minimum of 40 years go to country clubs instead of real prisons.

He's been in 3 state run facilities and 2 Privately run prisons in Florida and Virginia. It was through the private system he was able to transfer to virginia and is now closer to family.

He prefers the private facilities because he's treated better than in the state run facilities

[eShirl]

77. Stockholm Syndrome. n/t

[Zalatix]

46. You're being satirical, right?

This is one of those posts we're supposed to not take on face value, I suppose?

[Marrah_G]

67. It's not really a choice

[lib2DaBone]

25. The fastest growing segment in the employment agency world is PRISON labor

Entire Prison populations in the UNTIED STATES are being bid out as call centers and manufacturing operations.

They pay these prisoners 15 cents an hour.

Does anyone wonder why private prisons are so popular?

Thanks to Barack Obama and his NDAA.. you can be arrested and put in one of these for-profit prisons just for blinking your eye.

[NNN0LHI]

33. You think I was competing against prison labor on my job in the 1980's because of President Obama?

Sounds to me like you may be a little confused on this subject or something.

Don

[magical thyme]

62. were you in a for profit prison?

Were you "leased out" to a private corporation, which payed you pennies/hour for a job that would cost minimum wage+ for a non-prisoner employee?

Or were you paid normal pay rate for the work you did, with money deducted for your room and board at the prison?

Were the companies that hired you given tax breaks for doing so?

[NNN0LHI]

63. Are you sure you are replying to the right person here?

I was working in a union auto factory not a prison and our competitor was using the prison labor.

Don

[magical thyme]

72. aaack...I read your post backwards

sorry. lack of sleep. somehow thought you were in working in prison in the 80s.... wish I could go back to bed, but have to leave for work in an hour....it's gonna be a long evening, I can tell already....

[NNN0LHI]

73. Don't worry about it

I do the same thing sometimes.

Nothing to be embarrassed about.

It happens.



Don

[Uncle Joe]

41. Kicked and recommended. For profit prisons should be illegal, that kind of system is

dysfunctional, corruptive, immoral and its' only possible big picture goal will be to promote an extremely authoritarian governmental system dominated by draconian law, more prisoners = more money.

Make no mistake about what for profit prisons will be spending their lobbying, bribing and campaign contribution, issue advocacy money on, it damn sure won't be on freedom or civil liberties.

Thanks for the thread, NNNOLHI.

[NBachers]

44. I did a fair stretch in Federal prison in the late '80's and early '90's

I worked in the Unicor Federal Prison Industries when I could. It was factory, industrial, and quality control work.

I also did farm work, janitorial, and construction. We actually built our own prison; I got to over-build features into the room my mates and I ended up in.

The Prison Industries job paid enough money that I could cover my own commissary, send money out to my wife, 'till she split, and have a little nest-egg built up when I left.

The other jobs were pretty much free labor.

The people who didn't want to work, who were more interested in playing convict games or fucking off, could get a little shit job and get by with the minimal.

I figured I wanted to remain in work mode so I'd be able to hit the ground running when I got out.

I have friends who campaign against prison labor, both from inside and outside. I support them.

But if I ever went back, I'd go right back to the Prison Industries jobs and try to make whatever I could of my life and time in the joint.

And, so far, I've been out since '91 and off paper since '94. I don't see myself going back in.

[NNN0LHI]

49. What happens if some day your current job on the outside is contracted out for prison labor to do?

Then maybe the only way you will be able to get a job is by going back into prison.

Have you considered these possibilities? You don't see any downside to that?

Don

[NBachers]

58. Well, like I said, I'll support anyone who campaigns against prison labor taking away outside jobs

But answer me this: You find yourself doing a long stretch in prison.

You have the choice of working, bringing in a little cash to make yourself less dependent on those outside, and keeping yourself sharp and ready for the job market when you get out.

Or you have the choice of being unproductive and making your time longer, slower, and more difficult; making your transition to the outside that much harder. "You don't see any downside to that?"

"Have you considered these possibilities?"


Which would you choose, if you had a choice?

[TedBronson]

50. Sort of...

... when I was wild land firefighting.

Occasionally prisoners were brought out to do dig burn lines etc...

[Scuba]

51. Check out PACUR, owned by US Senator Ron Johnson (R-WI). They use a lot of prison labor.

Hate to hire workers and pay them when you can get prisoners for free.

[HiPointDem]

61. that pisses me off. legislators profiting off prison labor. i hate the cesspool this country is

becoming.

[Scuba]

64. Yeah, this particularly rankles me. There are honest citizens who need those jobs.