Joel Osteen's church theft opens can of worms: Jaws drop as folks do the math

[KamaAina]

http://www.examiner.com/article/joel-osteen-s-church-theft-opens-can-of-worms-jaws-drop-as-folks-do-the-math

Joel Osteen recently reported the theft of $600,000 from the safe in his church, but the theft wasn’t the only information of interest revealed. After finding out that this large chunk of money was from just one weekend of Osteen’s collected church donations, jaws dropped around the nation.

According to News Max on March 18, it didn’t take long for folks on the outside to do the math. Based on Osteen’s reported amount of money in this theft, it appears his Lakewood Church takes in an estimated $32 million a year, but some say that is a very low estimate. Calculator keys were punched around the nation taking the $600,000 for Olsteen's weekend donation collection and multiplying this by the 52 weeks in a year.

Many consider this a conservative estimate of donations this church receives, as March is just an average month with no holidays for the church. The spirit of giving around the Christmas holidays has to net this church more than the average week. Then there’s Easter and other holidays, not to mention the weekdays. The amount reported taken from the church was only for their take over a weekend....

If you combine the stolen money with what Osteen’s church rakes in from “other electronic means” and from the folks who give “online,” this amount must be astronomical. The "electronic" and "online" donations were an undisclosed amount of money that wasn’t included in the money stolen. Putting all this together you are more than likely talking about a substantial amount of money, much more than the estimate of $32 million each year.

[Skittles]

1. sad, the number of people who believe in such a bullshit artist

pathetic, actually

[ScreamingMeemie]

4. Posting the "Quotes of Joel Osteen" gets you an auto unfriend on FB or Twitter

in my world.

[yeoman6987]

53. Meanwhile cindi lauper's Go Fund Me campaign

Has only raised $136 thousand dollars. It is clear the priorities of Americans today. Yes to pizza joint and megachurch and no to homeless gay youth.

[Thinkingabout]

2. Yes, this may be a lot of money but so far i have not heard him ranting about

Hating others.

[Laffy Kat]

10. He is anti-gay.

He doesn't rant but makes it clear that the LGBT are sinners.

[ann---]

11. The first time

I saw him, I actually thought he was gay.

[KamaAina]

16. Hey, you never know.

*cough*Ted Haggard*cough*

[Arugula Latte]

17. *cough*Tony Perkins*cough*

(Not technically a minister, but the head of the Family Research Council ... so religious rightwing anti-gay nutjob self-loathing closet case.)

[KamaAina]

18. I thought he was pretty much out

oh, not that Tony Perkins.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

35. Not Norman Bates. Not that Tony Perkins.

I have yet to see one dime of charity mentioned donated by Pimpleface Osteen. His old man used to growl in commercials, "COME to thuh Oh-AY-SIS uv LUVVVV!!"

[Major Hogwash]

3. With that kind of money, I expect him to jump into the race any day now.

As just another Republican charlatan!

[Jamastiene]

54. For fuck's sake,

don't give him any ideas. 0.o

[guillaumeb]

5. If you compare it to the $534 billion 2014 US military budget it does not look so big

On the other hand, if you read the Bible and follow the words of Jesus Christ,
From Matthew 19:24
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Perhaps Pastor Osteen has a plan, but if not, I am willing to help him out by taking a small portion of the wealth. Just to help him out, you understand.

[FrodosPet]

47. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-26.htm

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

[Jamastiene]

55. They don't follow that part of the Bible.

They got tired of bothering to read after Leviticus and Deuteronomy. So, now, that's all they ever talk about and shove on the rest of us. I don't even think they really read that far. I think most of them were told what to think. I rarely saw the preacher at that Christian school I went to ever even open the Bible. He just ranted against people born out of wedlock and women every time we had our Tuesday and Friday chapel services. I'm so glad I survived that place without as many lasting scars as so many others who went there during his time as principal. I know one in my class from there who had to go into an insane asylum at 5 years old and still sleeps with a .45 under his pillow. Most of the kids who went to that same school are strung out on drugs and extremely fucked up even this many years later.

They love their money. They don't follow that part of the Bible. They preach hatred toward certain people, usually women and gay people, and tap into the hatreds that a large number of people have to get unquestioning support from those who hate women and gay people. That is how they keep their followers and make so much money.

[guillaumeb]

65. They also like the Book of Revelation

especially the part where the elect will be raptured up while the damned will suffer here.

Not to brag, but when the Jews return to Israel and rebuild the Temple, and the Rapture does come, the Du name guillaumeb WILL be available for one of you sinners.

[hobbit709]

6. It's the world's oldest profession, bar none.

Promising things with no proof of there ever being anything delivered.

[m-lekktor]

72. yep, there is more dignity in the "other" oldest profession.

at least something is usually "delivered".

[craigmatic]

7. What the fuck does he do with all this money?

[Cleita]

13. I wonder if the tax exemption for churches extends to his personal draws on the money?

[NaturalHigh]

23. No, his salary is taxed just like anyone's.

As for "expenses" and the like, I can't say.

[progressoid]

40. A minister's housing allowance is excludable from gross income for income tax purposes

If your congregation furnishes housing in kind as pay for your services as a minister instead of a housing allowance, you may exclude the value of the housing from income.

http://www.irs.gov/Help-&-Resources/Tools-&-FAQs/FAQs-for-Individuals/Frequently-Asked-Tax-Questions-&-Answers/Interest,-Dividends,-Other-Types-of-Income/Ministers%27-Compensation-&-Housing-Allowance/Ministers%27-Compensation-&-Housing-Allowance

If the "parsonage exemption" on religious ministers' housing costs were revoked, American clergy members would cumulatively lose an estimated $2.3 billion over five years

http://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/

[Igel]

41. Even that's subject to self-employment tax.

But at the same time, he's an outlier. If you try to base policy on outliers, you get really, really stupid policies.

Sadly, that kind of thinking is a common-place in American political and policy-setting thought. Motivated reasoning is all the rage, and has been since, well, whenever politics and emotion get the upper hand over pure rationalism and truth-seeking (which is plenty biased all by itself).


The church I was in long ago was positioned much more towards the mean. The minister lived reasonably well, but largely because he did a lot of work himself. He grew much of his own vegetables. He did his own yardwork. He replaced his own roof, with his son-in-law. He had one car, seldom ate out with his family (daughters were grown and reasonably independent). His housing allowance was pretty much the cost of his housing. It's worth noting that this was long enough ago that he had been able, early in life, to exempt out of Social Security (that was possible in the '50s, maybe into the '60s--I don't know). That also meant his wife and kids were out of Social Security, as well.

Hardly wealthy. He and that church didn't abuse the system. Most pastors and ministers don't.

[progressoid]

56. Outlier?

Any clergy who receives a housing allowance or furnished housing gets a deduction the rest of us don't get. Are they all outliers?

I too do a lot of work myself - I'm self employed. Grow my own vegetables. Do my own yard work. Fix my own house. Have one car. Seldom eat out. Can I get that housing deduction too?

It is hardly irrational to want a tax code that treats everyone equally.

[Major Hogwash]

63. Benny Hinn owns 7 mansions, worth a total of $29 Million dollars.

Nice work, if you can get it.

Starve the poor, feed the rich.
Starve the poor, feed the rich.
Starve the poor, feed the rich.

Over and over again.

[struggle4progress]

68. I think it's more complicated than you suggest

A minister who receives a housing allowance may exclude the allowance from gross income to the extent it is used to pay expenses in providing a home. Generally, those expenses include rent, mortgage interest, utilities, repairs, and other expenses directly relating to providing a home. The amount excluded cannot be more than the reasonable compensation for the minister's services.

If you own your home, you may still claim deductions for mortgage interest and real property taxes. If your housing allowance exceeds the lesser of your reasonable compensation, the fair rental value of the home, or your actual expenses, you must include the amount of the excess in income.

The minister's employing organization must officially designate the allowance as a housing allowance before paying it to the minister.

The fair rental value of a parsonage or the housing allowance is excludable only for income tax purposes. The minister must include the amount for self-employment tax purposes. http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc417.html

Not all of a housing allowance is necessarily excludable from income tax: only the portion covering expenses directly relating to providing a home can be excluded, and that portion only insofar as it does not exceed reasonable compensation for the minister's services.

Regarding housing allowances, from your link: Include any amount of the allowance that you cannot exclude with your wages on line 7 of Form 1040 U.S. Individual Income Tax Return.

Your excerpt covers the case that the congregation provides (say) a parsonage.

[SummerSnow]

38. Fleecing of the flock is big business..

I found this to be very interesting but not surprising....

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html

[VanillaRhapsody]

8. Wonder what pittance of that amount .....actually goes to charitable work...

Compare THAT to the Clinton Foundation which brings in hundreds of millions but pays out about 94% to charity! But some around these parts like to sling the term "Clinton Foundation" as if it is a pejorative!

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. ...and that has exactly what to do with this conversation?...

Please... can we have a conversation where the name Clinton doesn't get wedged into it somehow? Don't make me throw her in my trash can again.

[VanillaRhapsody]

24. Everything.....because that is what a Charitable Organization does....

and these Mega Churches are not THAT!

And like I said...you hear "the Clinton Foundation" thrown around like its doing what Joel Olsteen and others are doing!

[ScreamingMeemie]

29. It has absolute zip to do with this conversation, but you could start a thread on it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. In your humble opinion right?

Or are you the thread police?

[BeanMusical]

62. "and that has exactly what to do with this conversation?"

Nothing at all.

[Igel]

43. There are many kinds of charitable work.

The church I was in spent most of its money on administration and staff. Nobody got rich. But it was what was necessary to keep the office staff housed and fed, maintain the ministers, allow them to travel to visit minister-less areas, and serve those who requested teaching.

Charitable work is not just giving money to the poor and paying bills or providing food and shelter. Harvard and Yale were established to do charitable work--educate. Other "NGOs" were established for another kind of charitable work--environmental causes. Civil rights groups also did charitable work.

[ann---]

9. Let them pay taxes

[Thinkingabout]

12. It the money for profit? Doubt it is.

[Zynx]

15. Hard to make a profit when you take so much of the cashflow for yourself.

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/real-estate/07-04-10-after-move-to-river-oaks-joel-osteen-wants-to-sell-tanglewood-land-for-11-million/

He's a fucking scam artist.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

71. Being from the Houston area

I know a bit about this "preacher."

(I can't stand the "name it and claim it" crowd - the Osteens and Hines of the world. )

Anyway, the Osteens' have a sweet deal - they get all their fame from Lakewood Church, and in return they don't draw a salary. Instead, they make their money on book deals, speaking engagements outside the church, etc. The church does apparently have a high number of employees drawing salaries, including musicians.

[Cal Carpenter]

14. Huh, and churches don't have any required transparency like other nonprofits are required to do.

I guess I didn't realize that (just googled it to find out). Most nonprofits have to file 990s and make that information public so you can find out how much $$ they raise in a year and a simplified budget of where the money goes, what the highest-paid employees make, etc.

But not churches.

That's pretty fucked up.

[Igel]

44. That may have changed.

I worked for a church back in the '80s. We were required to keep a copy of the books and records (not all, since some of the information really has to be confidential) available in a public space for public inspection--at the very least by the membership.

"Membership" in most churches, BTW, is a fairly flexible and broad category.

There was no necessity for a public filing because every checkbook ledger, every monthly budget report, every expense report and every financial statement was immediately and automatically public. And from time to time we had people stop in to look things over. Sometimes we were helpful and found exactly what they wanted and walked them through the records, sometimes we weren't and just plopped the stack of binders and printouts onto a table and said, "Here they are, we close at 5:15 pm." What mattered wasn't whether they were long-standing members or relative strangers. What mattered was whether they wanted to understand something or wanted to find something to gossip about or base some accusation on.

What was confidential was correspondence, notes from counselling sessions, etc. Payroll records were public.

[Octafish]

19. Rupert Murdoch paid Pat Robertson $1.9 Billion for Family Channel

http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9809/empire.html

Billion with a B.

[Rex]

57. Well, you know...we just ignore most of the significant news now.

They lose out to the circus politicians and reality TV stars.

[Octafish]

67. It's why people can't tell Democrats from Repuglians these days.

Neither some Democrats, so-ing befuddled.

[Rex]

69. Well it takes focus of clarity, you remember how much there was on DU1 and DU2.

DU3...not so much. Got keep that moving forward stuff going donchaknow. Looking back might scare the crap out of us.

[Journeyman]

20. "Prey TV looks like pay TV to me; it's just a curse on the human race." ~ Pete Townshend

[malaise]

26. Thread winner

Let us Prey!!!

[freshwest]

61. There was a weird science fiction/horror series called Prey. They left it hanging after 13 episodes:

The start of each episode said:

“We’ve just been bumped down the food chain.”

Damn, it was creepy.

[hrmjustin]

21. Apalling!

[NaturalHigh]

25. That kind of money...

would feed a lot of hungry people.

[arcane1]

27. I like to imagine that the money was stolen by none other than Jesus himself...

and it was given away to actual needy people


(Yes, I'm stealing quotes from my own Facebook page )

[KamaAina]

28. I missed that one!

[logosoco]

30. Well I bet he'll get a front row seat in heaven !

Right after they get that camel through the eye of the needle!



I think a church (or a religious charlatan, whichever!) should get a tax break based on the amount of good they actually bring to the community. If someone is sitting with $600,000 cash, I don't think they get the idea of what the money is supposed to be for.

[KG]

31. religion LOL n/t

[olddots]

32. if this shit was taxed

there would be a"heaven " on earth but the chances of that ever happening are slim .

[joeybee12]

33. Scam artist extraordinaire...nt

[Capn Sunshine]

34. As with most grifters, I wonder how much REALLY got stolen

This stinks to high heaven, and I'm sure the Lord has taken notice of the source.

[Warpy]

36. It's a racket, pure and simple, selling hopeless people the hope of pie in the sky

when they die while extorting money they can't afford to give out of them for the privilege of listening to a charismatic fraud on their teevee sets.

Marjoe Gortner made a movie outing all those frauds back in the 70s and still the faithful keep taking money away from their own dinner tables to send to those platinum plated con artists.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

49. The movie "Marjoe" was excellent.

I saw it in the fall of 1972. He was scamming people as a tent revivalist and he knew it. It won the Academy Award for Best Documentary in 1973.

Suckers are everywhere.

[Warpy]

52. It's on You Tube, or was about 6 months ago

"Glory Gee to Beezus!"--Marjoe Gortner, counting up the loot.

[lpbk2713]

37. Now everyone is expected to donate double until further notice.

And of course there will never be a further notice.

[cui bono]

39. How do they wire that money up to heaven so god can have it?

I saw a woman reading a book by him at the carwash this past weekend.

[tabasco]

42. A nation full of stupid suckers

Giving their money away to slimy con men.

[madville]

45. I've read that he doesn't draw a paycheck

From Lakewood Church. Most of his income comes from his book and inspirational speaking sales (100 million dollar empire by itself).

[Liberal_in_LA]

46. wow.

[kwassa]

48. Most ministerial positions pay rather badly.

The Joel Osteens of the world are the rare exceptions.

Generally, this is not a business people go into for the money. Ministers often make less than local school teachers.

[Rex]

59. That's the whole point, Osteen went into it to become rich and powerful.

[kwassa]

60. I think he just did what he did ..

and discovered he could make a lot of money at it.

It is not a business one becomes rich in easily. l

[L0oniX]

50. Collection plates have a CC/Debit card reader installed.

[Initech]

58. $32 million? Why am I reminded of Reverend Lovejoy from The Simpson's?

"This strange and very evil new sect The Movementarians are nothing more than a pack of rituals and chants designed to take away the money of fools. Now let's say The Lord's Prayer 40 times but first let's pass the collection plate!"

[BobSmith4152]

64. Has anyone noticed how many Christian mega-churches there are and how few mega-charities? n/t

[Ilsa]

73. Precisely. I wouldn't care how much they brought in

every week if they paid their bills and salaries and benefits, and then used the remainder for actual charitable work, such as providing for basic needs for the poor, medical missions, etc. There would be nothing left to tax after that.

Far too many of these places are doing it for the money they can reap from desperate souls. They are selfish and despicable leaders.

[onecent]

66. Are these people asleep under rocks these day? My God

this man is on every Sunday to a crowd of the most hypnotized IN A TRANCE state, and people don't realize this man is MAKING A TON OF MONEY by saying What they ALL WANT TO HEAR OR NEED TO HEAR????

How about taxing churches ALONG WITH BIG BUSINESS....!!!

[Initech]

70. $32 million and they pay zero taxes on it? Where's the IRS?

[KamaAina]

75. Busy watching Rockwell?

[Trillo]

74. Do they get any "faith-based 'government' money"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Office_of_Faith-Based_and_Neighborhood_Partnerships

[valerief]

76. Tax. Free. nt