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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJoel Osteen's church theft opens can of worms: Jaws drop as folks do the math
http://www.examiner.com/article/joel-osteen-s-church-theft-opens-can-of-worms-jaws-drop-as-folks-do-the-mathAccording to News Max on March 18, it didnt take long for folks on the outside to do the math. Based on Osteens reported amount of money in this theft, it appears his Lakewood Church takes in an estimated $32 million a year, but some say that is a very low estimate. Calculator keys were punched around the nation taking the $600,000 for Olsteen's weekend donation collection and multiplying this by the 52 weeks in a year.
Many consider this a conservative estimate of donations this church receives, as March is just an average month with no holidays for the church. The spirit of giving around the Christmas holidays has to net this church more than the average week. Then theres Easter and other holidays, not to mention the weekdays. The amount reported taken from the church was only for their take over a weekend....
If you combine the stolen money with what Osteens church rakes in from other electronic means and from the folks who give online, this amount must be astronomical. The "electronic" and "online" donations were an undisclosed amount of money that wasnt included in the money stolen. Putting all this together you are more than likely talking about a substantial amount of money, much more than the estimate of $32 million each year.
Skittles
(153,104 posts)pathetic, actually
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)in my world.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Has only raised $136 thousand dollars. It is clear the priorities of Americans today. Yes to pizza joint and megachurch and no to homeless gay youth.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Hating others.
Laffy Kat
(16,366 posts)He doesn't rant but makes it clear that the LGBT are sinners.
ann---
(1,933 posts)I saw him, I actually thought he was gay.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)*cough*Ted Haggard*cough*
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)(Not technically a minister, but the head of the Family Research Council ... so religious rightwing anti-gay nutjob self-loathing closet case.)
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)oh, not that Tony Perkins.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I have yet to see one dime of charity mentioned donated by Pimpleface Osteen. His old man used to growl in commercials, "COME to thuh Oh-AY-SIS uv LUVVVV!!"
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)As just another Republican charlatan!
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)don't give him any ideas. 0.o
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)On the other hand, if you read the Bible and follow the words of Jesus Christ,
From Matthew 19:24
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Perhaps Pastor Osteen has a plan, but if not, I am willing to help him out by taking a small portion of the wealth. Just to help him out, you understand.
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)They got tired of bothering to read after Leviticus and Deuteronomy. So, now, that's all they ever talk about and shove on the rest of us. I don't even think they really read that far. I think most of them were told what to think. I rarely saw the preacher at that Christian school I went to ever even open the Bible. He just ranted against people born out of wedlock and women every time we had our Tuesday and Friday chapel services. I'm so glad I survived that place without as many lasting scars as so many others who went there during his time as principal. I know one in my class from there who had to go into an insane asylum at 5 years old and still sleeps with a .45 under his pillow. Most of the kids who went to that same school are strung out on drugs and extremely fucked up even this many years later.
They love their money. They don't follow that part of the Bible. They preach hatred toward certain people, usually women and gay people, and tap into the hatreds that a large number of people have to get unquestioning support from those who hate women and gay people. That is how they keep their followers and make so much money.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)especially the part where the elect will be raptured up while the damned will suffer here.
Not to brag, but when the Jews return to Israel and rebuild the Temple, and the Rapture does come, the Du name guillaumeb WILL be available for one of you sinners.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Promising things with no proof of there ever being anything delivered.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)at least something is usually "delivered".
craigmatic
(4,510 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)As for "expenses" and the like, I can't say.
progressoid
(49,933 posts)If your congregation furnishes housing in kind as pay for your services as a minister instead of a housing allowance, you may exclude the value of the housing from income.
http://www.irs.gov/Help-&-Resources/Tools-&-FAQs/FAQs-for-Individuals/Frequently-Asked-Tax-Questions-&-Answers/Interest,-Dividends,-Other-Types-of-Income/Ministers%27-Compensation-&-Housing-Allowance/Ministers%27-Compensation-&-Housing-Allowance
If the "parsonage exemption" on religious ministers' housing costs were revoked, American clergy members would cumulatively lose an estimated $2.3 billion over five years
http://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/
Igel
(35,270 posts)But at the same time, he's an outlier. If you try to base policy on outliers, you get really, really stupid policies.
Sadly, that kind of thinking is a common-place in American political and policy-setting thought. Motivated reasoning is all the rage, and has been since, well, whenever politics and emotion get the upper hand over pure rationalism and truth-seeking (which is plenty biased all by itself).
The church I was in long ago was positioned much more towards the mean. The minister lived reasonably well, but largely because he did a lot of work himself. He grew much of his own vegetables. He did his own yardwork. He replaced his own roof, with his son-in-law. He had one car, seldom ate out with his family (daughters were grown and reasonably independent). His housing allowance was pretty much the cost of his housing. It's worth noting that this was long enough ago that he had been able, early in life, to exempt out of Social Security (that was possible in the '50s, maybe into the '60s--I don't know). That also meant his wife and kids were out of Social Security, as well.
Hardly wealthy. He and that church didn't abuse the system. Most pastors and ministers don't.
progressoid
(49,933 posts)Any clergy who receives a housing allowance or furnished housing gets a deduction the rest of us don't get. Are they all outliers?
I too do a lot of work myself - I'm self employed. Grow my own vegetables. Do my own yard work. Fix my own house. Have one car. Seldom eat out. Can I get that housing deduction too?
It is hardly irrational to want a tax code that treats everyone equally.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Nice work, if you can get it.
Starve the poor, feed the rich.
Starve the poor, feed the rich.
Starve the poor, feed the rich.
Over and over again.
struggle4progress
(118,214 posts)If you own your home, you may still claim deductions for mortgage interest and real property taxes. If your housing allowance exceeds the lesser of your reasonable compensation, the fair rental value of the home, or your actual expenses, you must include the amount of the excess in income.
The minister's employing organization must officially designate the allowance as a housing allowance before paying it to the minister.
The fair rental value of a parsonage or the housing allowance is excludable only for income tax purposes. The minister must include the amount for self-employment tax purposes. http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc417.html
Not all of a housing allowance is necessarily excludable from income tax: only the portion covering expenses directly relating to providing a home can be excluded, and that portion only insofar as it does not exceed reasonable compensation for the minister's services.
Regarding housing allowances, from your link: Include any amount of the allowance that you cannot exclude with your wages on line 7 of Form 1040 U.S. Individual Income Tax Return.
Your excerpt covers the case that the congregation provides (say) a parsonage.
SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)I found this to be very interesting but not surprising....
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Compare THAT to the Clinton Foundation which brings in hundreds of millions but pays out about 94% to charity! But some around these parts like to sling the term "Clinton Foundation" as if it is a pejorative!
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Please... can we have a conversation where the name Clinton doesn't get wedged into it somehow? Don't make me throw her in my trash can again.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)and these Mega Churches are not THAT!
And like I said...you hear "the Clinton Foundation" thrown around like its doing what Joel Olsteen and others are doing!
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Or are you the thread police?
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Nothing at all.
Igel
(35,270 posts)The church I was in spent most of its money on administration and staff. Nobody got rich. But it was what was necessary to keep the office staff housed and fed, maintain the ministers, allow them to travel to visit minister-less areas, and serve those who requested teaching.
Charitable work is not just giving money to the poor and paying bills or providing food and shelter. Harvard and Yale were established to do charitable work--educate. Other "NGOs" were established for another kind of charitable work--environmental causes. Civil rights groups also did charitable work.
ann---
(1,933 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Zynx
(21,328 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I know a bit about this "preacher."
(I can't stand the "name it and claim it" crowd - the Osteens and Hines of the world. )
Anyway, the Osteens' have a sweet deal - they get all their fame from Lakewood Church, and in return they don't draw a salary. Instead, they make their money on book deals, speaking engagements outside the church, etc. The church does apparently have a high number of employees drawing salaries, including musicians.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)I guess I didn't realize that (just googled it to find out). Most nonprofits have to file 990s and make that information public so you can find out how much $$ they raise in a year and a simplified budget of where the money goes, what the highest-paid employees make, etc.
But not churches.
That's pretty fucked up.
Igel
(35,270 posts)I worked for a church back in the '80s. We were required to keep a copy of the books and records (not all, since some of the information really has to be confidential) available in a public space for public inspection--at the very least by the membership.
"Membership" in most churches, BTW, is a fairly flexible and broad category.
There was no necessity for a public filing because every checkbook ledger, every monthly budget report, every expense report and every financial statement was immediately and automatically public. And from time to time we had people stop in to look things over. Sometimes we were helpful and found exactly what they wanted and walked them through the records, sometimes we weren't and just plopped the stack of binders and printouts onto a table and said, "Here they are, we close at 5:15 pm." What mattered wasn't whether they were long-standing members or relative strangers. What mattered was whether they wanted to understand something or wanted to find something to gossip about or base some accusation on.
What was confidential was correspondence, notes from counselling sessions, etc. Payroll records were public.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)They lose out to the circus politicians and reality TV stars.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Neither some Democrats, so-ing befuddled.
Rex
(65,616 posts)DU3...not so much. Got keep that moving forward stuff going donchaknow. Looking back might scare the crap out of us.
Journeyman
(15,023 posts)malaise
(268,664 posts)Let us Prey!!!
freshwest
(53,661 posts)The start of each episode said:
Weve just been bumped down the food chain.
Damn, it was creepy.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)would feed a lot of hungry people.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)and it was given away to actual needy people
(Yes, I'm stealing quotes from my own Facebook page )
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)logosoco
(3,208 posts)Right after they get that camel through the eye of the needle!
I think a church (or a religious charlatan, whichever!) should get a tax break based on the amount of good they actually bring to the community. If someone is sitting with $600,000 cash, I don't think they get the idea of what the money is supposed to be for.
KG
(28,751 posts)olddots
(10,237 posts)there would be a"heaven " on earth but the chances of that ever happening are slim .
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Capn Sunshine
(14,378 posts)This stinks to high heaven, and I'm sure the Lord has taken notice of the source.
Warpy
(111,123 posts)when they die while extorting money they can't afford to give out of them for the privilege of listening to a charismatic fraud on their teevee sets.
Marjoe Gortner made a movie outing all those frauds back in the 70s and still the faithful keep taking money away from their own dinner tables to send to those platinum plated con artists.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I saw it in the fall of 1972. He was scamming people as a tent revivalist and he knew it. It won the Academy Award for Best Documentary in 1973.
Suckers are everywhere.
Warpy
(111,123 posts)"Glory Gee to Beezus!"--Marjoe Gortner, counting up the loot.
lpbk2713
(42,736 posts)And of course there will never be a further notice.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)I saw a woman reading a book by him at the carwash this past weekend.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Giving their money away to slimy con men.
madville
(7,403 posts)From Lakewood Church. Most of his income comes from his book and inspirational speaking sales (100 million dollar empire by itself).
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)The Joel Osteens of the world are the rare exceptions.
Generally, this is not a business people go into for the money. Ministers often make less than local school teachers.
Rex
(65,616 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)and discovered he could make a lot of money at it.
It is not a business one becomes rich in easily. l
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Initech
(100,029 posts)"This strange and very evil new sect The Movementarians are nothing more than a pack of rituals and chants designed to take away the money of fools. Now let's say The Lord's Prayer 40 times but first let's pass the collection plate!"
BobSmith4152
(75 posts)Ilsa
(61,690 posts)every week if they paid their bills and salaries and benefits, and then used the remainder for actual charitable work, such as providing for basic needs for the poor, medical missions, etc. There would be nothing left to tax after that.
Far too many of these places are doing it for the money they can reap from desperate souls. They are selfish and despicable leaders.
onecent
(6,096 posts)this man is on every Sunday to a crowd of the most hypnotized IN A TRANCE state, and people don't realize this man is MAKING A TON OF MONEY by saying What they ALL WANT TO HEAR OR NEED TO HEAR????
How about taxing churches ALONG WITH BIG BUSINESS....!!!