When people get unreasonably defensive about feminism or racial or LGBT equality....

[kpete]

:large
https://twitter.com/hashtag/KnowTheHistory?src=hash

[Gormy Cuss]

1. I've been in DU threads like that. n/t

[rhett o rick]

2. This is a very interesting OP. While most activists are reasonable

and recognize the dangers of extreme polarization there are some that use their idea of goodness to justify bullying those that don't completely agree. They refuse to acknowledge gray areas.

[WillTwain]

3. Been there

[zeemike]

8. And extreme polarization is where we are today.

And some people think you can win by bullying people into submission...it never works...never has and never will.
Backlash is the results and it is ever present whether we see it or not.

[jeff47]

11. So, a meta-"Not all Drivers"? (nt)

[thucythucy]

42. Please elaborate on this.

"All drivers should be hanged" is an analogy for what posts in what threads on DU?

DUers saying "all men should be hanged" in OPs about rape and rape culture?

DUers saying "all whites should be hanged" in OPs about racism?

DUers saying "all straights should be hanged" in OPs about gay bashing and homophobia?

Just need a clearer sense of what is being referenced by this analogy.

Thanks.

[rhett o rick]

43. I would try to explain it to you but I can tell by your post that

you aren't receptive to the truth. Let's leave it at that.

[thucythucy]

44. Ah, someone complaining about being stereotyped

has now stereotyped someone on the basis of a simple request for an elaboration on his post. But if these instances never happened, then you're indulging in straw men arguments. Because if they aren't straw men, it should be simple enough to provide some actual instances of that about which you complain.

I take it then that you can't actually provide the answers to my questions. Which, in turn, tells me what I need to know about the sincerity and veracity of your post.

[rhett o rick]

58. Just as I thought. You aren't interested discussing this.

I shouldn't have to answer your questions for you to make your point. You can make your point via statements.

[thucythucy]

60. You can't answer my question

Last edited Wed Apr 8, 2015, 08:29 PM - Edit history (1)

because your post is a straw man.

"Rhetoric" is absolutely right.

[rhett o rick]

61. If you think my post is a strawman, then explain why. Trying to corner someone

with insinuating questions is a lame tactic. I don't play that game. Once again, if you don't agree with me, come out and say so.

Your posting seems very familiar. Did you use to have a different name?

[thucythucy]

62. Simple: You stated that the cartoon should include

a panel with someone saying "All drivers should be hanged!"

The cartoon is obviously referencing the reaction pretty much any discussion on rape evokes from "some" men--an obvious diversion into "not all men" etc. The same dynamic occurs in discussions of racism--"not all whites..."

In this context, to say this needs a panel of someone saying, "all drivers should be hanged" is to strongly imply that a common response of rape survivor advocates is "all men should be hanged," of anti-racism advocates, "all white people should be hanged."

If this alleged response is so common it just has to be included in this cartoon to make the discussion complete, then obviously you should be able to come up with at least one example among the hundreds of discussions of these topics on DU. That's what I asked you to do. Instead, we're now in the third or fourth go-around of "I won't link to such a comment because..." what? I don't play nice?

So I call straw man.

[rhett o rick]

64. Seems you can only see it from one side. None drivers can over react also.

We all need to be careful to keep an open mind and not use self-righteousness as an excuse to bully those we deem wrong.

"Self-righteousness is the devil's masterpiece to make us think well of ourselves." Thomas Adams

[thucythucy]

65. So you have no examples to cite.

"We all need to be careful to keep an open mind..." which means you might want to be careful about posting straw man arguments in an attempt to denigrate what seems to me to be a perfectly on point cartoon.

I'm open to seeing any actual examples of this alleged over-reaction to which you keep referring. If you have none to offer, then perhaps you might want to open your own mind to the possibility that your response to this cartoon was a knee-jerk reaction driven by your own defensiveness.

Best wishes.

[rhett o rick]

66. You seem very familiar. Have you posted under another name?

I don't keep links to people's posts to use later to attack them as some do. Homey isn't playing your game.

[thucythucy]

67. Straw man followed by failure to cite

instances followed by ad hominem.

No, this is my only DU identity.

And the only "game" I've been playing is to ask you to cite examples of what you mean. Which you very obviously can't do.

'Bye.

[BainsBane]

39. "bullying"

Would that be like insulting a gay man who doesn't share your hatred for a certain political candidate by insisting he is allied with the 1 percent and Goldman Sacks? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6213988
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6273769
Only there it isn't in pursuit of social justice or equal rights. It was about--exactly nothing. Nothing whatsoever but a view of a particular individual. No issue, no cause, no principle. Nothing. Meanwhile, your response to this OP is to comment with disdain on people who advocate for social justice and human rights. Here you are, advocating for a centrist position. Leftists look at this cartoon and think of all the ways that the privileged make excuses in order to maintain their own power, yet you look at it and comment on the "extreme" nature of activists committed to equal rights. There is nothing unusual with arguing for a centrist position in American politics. Most people are more comfortable in the middle, and that is fine. They follow along some time after pathways have been broken through. What is unusual is for such people to declare themselves "the left" and then go around insulting as centrist and Third Way anyone who doesn't share their obsession with defeating a single member of the political elite. For me, it serves as a good example of how some of those who claim to be to the left of everyone else are actually anything but.

[rhett o rick]

41. How ironic. nm

[BainsBane]

56. Anyone who challenges you is bullying

While you feel entitled to insult others at will. That post I linked to above remains in my mind as among the most insulting things I've seen said on this site, and it was intended as such. That inability to distinguish truth from self is precisely what entitlement is about. Unlike you, I didn't call you "corporatist" a tool of Goldman Sachs, authoritarian, or any such thing. Instead I pointed out the contradiction in your views. Your refusal to examine that means that you insist any challenge to you is bullying. There is a power structure far more enduring that a presidential campaign. That power revolves around the marginalization of the majority of the population and a diminishing of their concerns merely because they were not born into a privilege race, class, gender, and sexuality. Yet that is precisely the power you object to being challenged.

[Katashi_itto]

51. Lol...cognitive dissonance anyone?

[rhett o rick]

57. Exactly. nm

[Bobbie Jo]

55. Thank you

Only there it isn't in pursuit of social justice or equal rights. It was about--exactly nothing. Nothing whatsoever but a view of a particular individual. No issue, no cause, no principle. Nothing. Meanwhile, your response to this OP is to comment with disdain on people who advocate for social justice and human rights.

What is unusual is for such people to declare themselves "the left" and then go around insulting as centrist and Third Way anyone who doesn't share their obsession with defeating a single member of the political elite. For me, it serves as a good example of how some of those who claim to be to the left of everyone else are actually anything but.

Nailed it in one.

[riqster]

4. kicked, recced and retweeted.

A good one.

[eggplant]

5. Sounds like a lot of the gun fetishists around here, too. n/t

[flamin lib]

6. What you said! nt

[BrotherIvan]

13. Exactly what the toon reminded me of

In the latest thread of a woman and her son being shot right in front of a cop car, gunners are out in force, arguing about their rights! Not a single word of sympathy for the victim. Not a single word of remorse that we in the US have to deal with this horrible violence. Not a moment's thought ever, in any thread I have ever seen, including after massacres such as Sandy Hook. It just shows how selfish and myopic and dangerously obsessed people are when they can't even consider the pain of the victim.

[ncjustice80]

15. Yup.

I suspect a lot of the gunners are tea partyplants/NRA shills. I wish Skinner would sweep through the Gungeon with the banhammer. A lot made rrally disgusting comments around the Michael Brown case.

[BrotherIvan]

18. And Trayvon as well

Sad really.

[valerief]

31. You haven't trashed the gun groups yet? Everyone should.

Let those _____s talk just to each other.

[Skittles]

23. yup

the only think of themselves - imagine that

[Major Hogwash]

50. If you've made 50,000 posts defending guns at DU, and only own one, then you just might be a . . .

. . . gun fetishist.

Sort of like what Jeff Foxworthy made his living doing, telling jokes like that.

It's funnier than hell to me to disagree with a gun fetishist only to have him turn around and call me a "gun grabber" for disagreeing with him!
I laughed every time someone called me that at the DU.

[Duppers]

7. YES! Recommended

Perfect.

[JTFrog]

9. I love this. n/t

[el_bryanto]

10. That's pretty spot on. nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

12. hope I can find this again, when I need it.

because I'm saving it.

[Nye Bevan]

14. The key here is the use of the word "some" in the first panel.

"Some men are rapists?" Yep.
"Some men are disgustingly sexist?" They sure are.
"Some bakers are homophobic?" True.

"All men benefit from rape?" Not cool, and yes, I have seen this claim made here on DU.

The message here: the word "some" is your friend. The victim in the first panel did not say "all drivers are dangerous assholes".

[YoungDemCA]

17. ....

[Nye Bevan]

21. A powerful, persuasive, and thought-provoking response.

Thank you so much.

[F4lconF16]

20. #NOTALLMEN!!!!11!!! sdjfio@#&*^safj3458@#

[beam me up scottie]

59. I love you.

[Gormy Cuss]

24. It's important to know the context of that last statement.

If "All men benefit from rape" was stated in the context of Brownmiller I can't image why that would be considered uncool on a discussion board.

[Nye Bevan]

26. Sorry, but "all men benefit from rape" is offensive whatever the context.

And if saying that makes me an "MRA schmuck", I guess that's what I am.

[Gormy Cuss]

27. It's a statement on privilege.

In Brownmiller's case, it's not saying that all men WANT to benefit from rape or that men are aware of the benefits and do nothing. It was a provocative statement to get people thinking differently about it.

[thucythucy]

35. How can you be sure you haven't benefited from the existence and prevalence of rape?

You're absolutely certain of that?

To the extent that women and girls have to worry about rape and sexual violence more than men, all women are at a disadvantage compared to all men, with all else being equal. This worry, this reality, acts to constrain women in so many ways, it's difficult to know where to begin.

Just one example from my own experience: a man and a woman, of roughly equal skills and qualifications, competing for the same night shift job. The woman had to worry about getting home very late at night (early in the morning) more than the man did, and so didn't press as hard as she might have to get that job. The guy--who was as sweet as could be--thus benefited, probably without even knowing it and certainly without intending it--from the fact that sexual violence is something very many women worry about--the background noise to all our lives.

You honestly can't think of a single instance in your life where being male, and not having to worry about being raped, didn't work to your advantage?

[Dont call me Shirley]

53. +++++1,000,000,000

[Rex]

34. 'Driver' is neutral in this context. Interesting what people pick up on to post about

as their subject.

[marle35]

63. I agree with you

I have never seen people on DU become defensive when the word "some" was used. I have no idea why some people here refuse to use that word.

How can you be horrified by generalizations of certain groups, and yet continue to post in a manner that generalizes people? Even if that's not what you meant, why not use clearer language when talking about hot button issues?

But then there would be fewer flame wars. What would happen to popcorn sales?

[demmiblue]

16. Spot on!

[trumad]

22. perfect for the MRA schmucks that roam the halls of DU.

Surprised they haven't blown the trumpet on this thread yet. I expect the 3 or 4 usual suspects will be along any minute.

[ismnotwasm]

47. You so crazy

Never change

[trumad]

25. kick

[Hekate]

28. KnR

[blkmusclmachine]

29. ,

,

[valerief]

30. Love that cartoon. nt

[Starry Messenger]

32. k&r

[Rex]

33. Wow, that is IT right there!

That why I SMH when I see it, because it can only really mean one or two things about the other poster.

[Quantess]

36. Does this apply to Muslim Extremists

and their VIOLENT misogyny and anti gay bigotry?

[romanic]

52. insert

#notall________ joke here. :p

[IronLionZion]

37. what if some gay minority feminist ran me over?

#notallonlinearguments!

[obxhead]

38. I disagree with this toon.

The idea is replace "driver" with lgbt etc.

It doesn't work in my mind.

Quite simply put, a driver can crush me with his car. It is impossible for a lgbt to harm me with their sexual preference.

This toon infers that some lgbt people can actually harm you by being who they are.

[BainsBane]

40. It's not about the LGBT person

It's about the privileged response to discussions of homophobia, sexism, rape, etc.... The "not all men" mantra. It's about, for example, men who take any discussion of rape as an attack on their gender.

[McCamy Taylor]

46. Amen on that.

[jobycom]

48. You got it backwards.

The guy on the ground is the LGBT, Muslim, woman, black person, etc. The driver is the person who just crushed them with privilege.

[McCamy Taylor]

45. So true.

[raven mad]

49. Peace out, my bro!

[Dont call me Shirley]

54. This cartoon is a basic example of Denial of responsibility then Blame the victim

Which is the way misogyny and other forms of bigotry are held in perpetuity.