The Dumb South: What to make of regional difference

[gollygee]

Before any southerners get angry, you need to know that this article is explaining that racism is everywhere, not just or specifically in the south. It's written by a Harvard student in the Harvard Crimson.

http://www.thecrimson.com/column/the-happiness-here/article/2015/3/11/harvard-making-fun-south/


A lot of racist shit happens down South. It is excellent and warranted and exciting when people thoughtfully consider that, questioning what unique Southern history is at play, considering what role education inequity plays in the situation and how racism plays into that, analyzing how history bleeds into the present.

More often though, the conversation doesn’t quite go like that. The conversation goes, “LOL, the South!” And then the conversation is over. And suddenly it’s not a conversation at all. It is a hilarious device, a dark and farcical tale against which it's authors apotheosize themselves.

Growing up, there were people who talked about the North like it was the Promised Land. Here, I’m beginning to hear people talk about the South like it is actual Hell. By substituting laughter for any possible constructive conversation that could take place about what is actually at play and what is actually at stake when it comes to the American South, there becomes a sense of irresponsibility. Oh no, we would never do anything like that. And if we would, at least we’re not the South.

A lot of racist shit happens in the Northeast. But hey, let’s make it personal. A lot of racist shit happens at Harvard. (Its not just about race, its about ableism and sexism and homophobia and all kinds of prejudice.) It is rare and excellent and warranted when people thoughtfully consider what history is at play here, what education inequity is at play when a Harvard student wearing their new academic privilege like an uncomfortable but expensive sweater vest (or, more likely, like yet another shiny badge on a very old and familiar sweater vest) chuckles and guffaws at all the Southern plebeians.

[F4lconF16]

1. Kick and rec for a very thoughtful essay.

Props to the author

[ms liberty]

2. Marking for later. n/t

[kcr]

3. Racism does happen in the Northeast.

That is true. But it isn't like the South. And nothing will change as long as enough Southerners are in denial about it. It's a shame.

[Aerows]

5. I've lived in the Deep South

all of my life. I assure you, I am in denial about nothing. I'd say that many liberals that live here aren't in denial about it, either.

Do you wish to discuss Indiana? It might not be the Northeast, but it sure as hell is closer to it than Mississippi or Louisiana is. I dare you to say that New Orleans is not a fairly cosmopolitan city (well, it got slammed by Katrina, but still - cosmopolitan).

[kcr]

6. I lived in the South for many years myself

And I stand by what I said. It's usually liberals who've only ever lived in the south that believe that there is no difference.

[Aerows]

10. Oh my

What a delightful dig as though you know everything about me, including where I have traveled.

You've really put this liberal in her place!

[kcr]

14. No, I only go by what you post

and you said you'd lived there all your life

[Aerows]

15. Do you think that

having a permanent residence in the Deep South means you have never been anywhere other than the Deep South?

[kcr]

23. What does visiting other places have to do with it?

You seem to think I'm saying it's perfect everywhere else than in the South, and I'm not. It isn't. But that doesn't mean racism isn't a bigger problem in the South. It's just plain more conservative there than it is in many other places.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

28. Racism is a problem Nationally.....

The white racists in California hate the "Mexicans" as much as the white racists in the South hate black people.

One thing they both have in common...

They only hang with like minded people and in both places those groups are getting smaller and are being ridiculed by people who got the memo that it's the 21st century.

[kcr]

30. I understand it is a problem everywhere

I honestly do. No one should operate under the delusion that if they live in a certain region that racism doesn't exist. But I don't think it's right to pretend it's the same everywhere. It's especially frustrating when you live in a southern state and people are hyper-defensive whenever the topic is brought up and seem to want to keep their head in the sand.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. One of the things I heard in the Midwest was, "We treat our's real good here"....

The person saying that didn't even see a problem with it.

[kcr]

35. Right, most people know a racist or two at the least.

I'm talking about those who for some reason want to deny the social and political conservatism of the South and the extra heaping of racism that goes along with it. There are deep seated historical reasons for it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

36. I the South you have a different situation...

Namely, Republicans telling poor whites the reason they're poor is because the government is taking away their money to give to black people so they don't have to work.

Mention the word "reparations" and watch them go ballistic.

[kcr]

37. In the South you have a different situation. Exactly my point.

But some don't want to hear about that different situation because that's "South Bashing" They want to operate under the delusion that the South is no different than any other place and you're nothing but an elite Northern snooty toot for pointing it out.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. The "just as bad" crowd tends to pull a Bush Administration tactic too....

They make bold declarations based on cherry-picked data.

Having said that, the South will continue to oppress black people for one simple reason: They outnumber white people.

[cheapdate]

38. I've seen it here in Tennessee -- the hyper-defensive denial.

It's so preposterous that it's almost funny -- but it's not.

[tblue37]

34. And in places like Oklahoma, the target of racists is more often Native Americans. nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

40. The SPLC puts out a map of hate in America regularly.....

http://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

Very relevant to this topic as it shows the abundance of hate groups in places like New York (44) and California (57) as opposed to Alabama (18).

[Bluenorthwest]

55. California also has 8 times the population of Alabama, 38.8 million vs 4.85 million....

8 x 18 =144

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. Maybe the other states have more because they like to shop.

[Mariana]

57. Of course, you're not accounting for population, are you?

We can express the data in a different way: Alabama has one recognized hate group per (roughly) 270k residents, New York has one per 450k residents, and California has one per 680k residents.

No one has ever denied that racism and other forms of hate exist everywhere. It is more prevalent in some states than in others. That's just a fact.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

58. That, and being a member of a hate group isn't a point of pride quite as much....

In the South you get a pat on the back for becoming a full fledged member of the KKK. Especially amongst your fellow members of the Chamber of Commerce. (Used to be the PTA too)

[Ghost in the Machine]

44. Is Maryland in the South? That's where the headquarters of the Aryan Brotherhood is for the

entire East Coast. Tom Metzger, founder of the White Aryan Resistance, was born and raised in Indiana before going to California. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Metzger_(white_supremacist)

I was born and raised in the South, from Miami, FL to GA, NC, SC & East Tenn, but I saw more "rebel flags" in Indiana, Ohio and Michigan than I've ever seen here. Of course, if you know your history, you know that East Tenn fought for the Union during the Civil War, right?

As a side note, I recently found out that I'm related to the outlaw Jesse Woodsen James through ancestry.com DNA. His mother's maiden name was Woodsen and we are related through her. Must be in the blood because I was an outlaw for as far back as I can remember

S.Y.L.O. (Support Your Local Outlaws)

Ghost

[kcr]

49. Why does it matter where the headquarters for the Aryan Brothers is?

Especially when the argument isn't, "Racism only exists in the South"

[cwydro]

54. Ho hum.

Another south hater.

[gollygee]

7. There's plenty of racism here in Michigan

We can clean our own houses before we need to complain about the mess in someone else's house, particularly if we use their mess as an excuse to not fix ours.

[kcr]

9. Yep, I know.

Michigan happens to be the state I was born and raised in.

[Revanchist]

8. Yeah, racism in the NE is nothing like the south. That's why the first open KKK march was in Maine.

[kcr]

13. Yeah. Racism in the NE is nothing like it is in the South

That Klan march happened in the 1920s. You aren't contending that Maine is the only state that was having open Klan marches are you? The fact that Maine was the first during that time period in US history wouldn't be that significant.

[Aerows]

16. Unless it erodes your idea

that the South has a substantial monopoly on bigotry.

[Jackpine Radical]

19. Let me add that three black men were lynched in Duluth, MN in 1920.

And Milwaukee is "the most segregated city in America."

[kcr]

21. Okay. So if someone else is being a jerk

or people were jerks in the past, then no one ever has to examine their own jerkiness and should be defensive everytime someone points it out?

I just do not and never will get this sort of reaction to the valid criticisms of the South. I think it's beyond unfortunate and a major reason why there hasn't been more change.

[Jackpine Radical]

25. Oh, fer Chrissake,

You make it sound like I was saying there is racism in the north, therefore we should let the south off the hook. That was neither my intention nor my attitude toward the whole thing. I was active in civil rights in the north 50 years ago because I could see the racism all around me and believed we have to clean our own house too, not just bask in some self-indulgent sense of superiority.

I think the ways in which racism manifests can be different based on geography, but the racism is everywhere, and that's where we have to engage it: Everywhere.

[kcr]

27. You're responding to me in a thread where I'm engaging a certain type of denial, though.

I was assuming you were arguing my point in that context and I apologize if I misunderstood you. Racism is everywhere and of course that should be addressed, but that doesn't mean we ignore specific regional racism.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

47. Wow you got browbeaten here. I agree with your point 100% - I have

lived in both places - you are exactly right !

[Jackpine Radical]

60. If you want to drive people further into their pathology, there is an easy way to do it.

Shame them.

OK, maybe this will help elucidate my view: The difference between guilt and shame shame is that the the former attaches to an act, while the latter attaches to a person. It's the difference between "You did an evil thing" and "You are an evil person." Convincing people of the former is a necessary step on the path to change, while convincing people you believe the latter will drive them deeper into the sickness.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. Let's not forget Illinois Nazis....

I hate Illinois Nazis.

[SheilaT]

33. What's written on the photo is

First parade in NE states of Ku Klux Klan

You mean to tell me there was never an open parade of the KKK anywhere in this country before 1923? Really?

[m-lekktor]

45. The Maine KKK was formed to fight Catholicism more than anything.

which, yes, makes it bigotry but not specifically racism in this instance. I know this, I grew up in Maine and near this tiny town of Milo. I was told a great uncle i never met joined the Maine Klan to get free boooze.

The African American population was always very low in Maine. Yes there are bigots who are also racist and homophobic who live there but, for the sake of accuracy, the Maine KKK was formed to battle catholicism, lots of french Canadian catholic immigrants from Canada. Even when i was growing up, we folks of french canadian ancestory would be joked about, called "frogs" etc


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_in_Maine

[Gormy Cuss]

50. In Maine the focus was on Jews and Catholics, especially immigrants-- rather than blacks.

There just weren't enough African-Americans to warrant a parade. Same year there was a much larger KKK parade in Portland,ME's Irish immigrant neighborhood. It was one of my grandmother's earliest memories.

The KKK basically didn't take hold in the state. It was a 1920s phenomenon.

[CherokeeDem]

20. I was born in the South....

Racism there is no different than racism anywhere. The only difference, if you need so desperately to have one, is racism is not as hidden in the South as it is in other parts of this country. The same racist jerks live everywhere but those in the north like to act as though they are superior to their "racist" Southern cousins.

If anyone believes any Southerner is in denial regarding race is in denial themselves. Those you refer to as liberal southerners are well aware, and those who are racist are too. The denial appears to come from those who consistently choose to denigrate a group of people they know nothing about. It's a shame.

[kcr]

24. Yes. It is much more open. That is a significant difference.

The fact that people feel they can be more open is because it is more accepted culturally. It is different in the South. Thank you. I have never contended that racism and racists didn't exist anywhere else. I think it's pretty hard to argue that it is equal when it is more accepted and open in one culture over another.

[CherokeeDem]

51. Once again...

you twist someone's words to validate your argument. I'm certain it's a matter of perspective... you assume your's is correct and everyone else is wrong. Slavery was 'tolerated' in the South and in the North if I remember correctly, as it has for centuries throughout the world. Does that make it right? No. Racism is not tolerated except by racists and I'm willing to bet while the racists living in the South may wear their hatred on their sleeves, at least, they are not hypocrites hiding their racism.

I wonder when you visited the southern US last. I dare say that most people who continue to engage in Southern bashing, have this image of of the white overlords abusing slaves in the cotton fields. The contemporary South is nothing like that... cotton is picked by machines now. Who knew we'd be so progressive?

Yes, there are still small towns where class distinction occurs, not only between blacks and whites but between whites as well. I don't tolerate such behavior and none of my friends and most of my family do not. Unfortunately, there are a couple of tea party nuts lurking in the family. I have nothing to do with them.

I would like to request that you and the others who hold this opinion stop painting the South with such a broad and negative brush. We are citizens of this country and hold diverse, and sometimes unfortunate, views just like everyone else regardless of location. Please stop maligning Southerner's for something which occurs everywhere.

By the way, I believe I read in another post that you are from Michigan. I ask you to consider how you would feel if you were painted as a racist or at least, tolerance of racism due to the horrors that have befallen Detroit. Detroit stands as a symbol of racial unrest and now thousands of people who live there have been abandoned. Would you like for someone to call out your state as tolerant of racism. Doesn't feel good and it is unfair, isn't it?

[raven mad]

4. I like and rec'd this because I was born and raised, until age 13 -

in the deep south.

Then I had to move to Alaska, a move which I've never regretted.

I think it's a lot of what happens with the people around you as a kid - my parents were far the opposite of racists; and I was born in 1954. I married a guy whose uncle was a KKK Grand Dragon. THAT didn't last..............

I don't think any PLACE is free of it. I think your mind and heart have to be.

[RKP5637]

11. Racism is all over the US, homophobia is all over the US. And sometimes it occurs in

places one would never expect. And, sometimes where one might expect it, it doesn't. Some places are hardcore, others not so much. I've lived in a lot of states, and visited almost every state in the US.

[Journeyman]

12. I thought Randy Newman explained all that in his album, "Good Old Boys" . . .

Potentially offensive language. Listen with that in mind.

[Warpy]

39. Yep, that pretty much summed up my thoughts. It's not just racism.

It's the intolerant southern culture with its anti intellectualism and hyper religiosity that you still find outside the cities and in some neighborhoods within the cities.

There were parts of living in the south I can look back on with nostalgia and I wish i could visit some of those places once again. I won't because of the way I was treated there when I was a kid.

[Maeve]

52. "outside the cities and in some neighborhoods"

Ohio has its share of bigots (more than its share, perhaps) and a high percentage of those are rural either in fact or in origin. Rural areas are conservative by nature and less likely to foster diversity; the South is still very rural (and so is the Midwest, which is why the Republicans are in the ascendancy here).

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Exactly right.

Last edited Fri Apr 3, 2015, 11:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Low effort thinking is fundamentally conservative and "The South, LOL" is exactly that.

I think that americans everywhere should be a part of the conversation about why conditions differ in various parts of the country, but reductionist farce helps not at all.

[kcr]

32. I actually did learn something new for once in this thread, though.

There were the usual Well, Did You Know About the KKK/Nazis in InsertNorthernStateHere educational posts that always show up, but I also learned that there is no frisking in the south. Now, that was a new one. I'll have to pass that one on at the next Clueless Have No Idea About Racism Northern Liberals Club.

[LuvNewcastle]

18. I think that a lot of Americans

see some of the extremist behavior in the South, such as talk of secession, and those Americans think that they're all right because they would never have such extreme views. But just because you think that it's okay for black and white people to use the same restrooms doesn't mean you're not a racist.

It seems that too many Americans are blind to their own problems because they tell themselves, "hey, at least we're not the South." Should southerners look at their region and say, "well at least we aren't Saudi Arabia?" Instead of justifying our own bad behavior by comparing ourselves to someone worse, I think we all need more self-examination. That, I think, is the better way to achieve lasting progress.

[gollygee]

46. +1

That's what I took from this too.

[the_sly_pig]

22. Racism everywhere

I believe we're all racist in some form. I believe there are degree's of racism. I believe thoughtful people understand their ignorance and at least make an attempt to change their behavior. Stupid people express their racist thoughts with pride and act on their racist thoughts.

I live in the north and know stupid people. I believe racism's effects are reduced through education. Education budgets are being slashed everywhere. Republicans have successfully rebranded academics as elitist rather than simply smart.

I don't believe the battle is between races, I believe the battle is between smart and stupid. Education is where we should be concentrating our efforts.

[Calista241]

26. Stop and Frisk says more about the north's racism than anything else.

And we don't have that here in the South.

[djean111]

42. I moved (transferred) from Illinois to North Carolina, in the mid-eighties.

Only worked there for two years; my company was closing the office there, so I was first out the door, to Tampa.
I became friendly with a black woman who worked in an accounting group I supported as system manager for their application and hardware. This was seen as odd, in my little group of born-in-NC, college-educated guys.

I was the first woman, and first "Yankee" in the group. Joke told to me the first day - why does South Carolina have more black people (they actually used the N-word) and North Carolina have more Yankees? Because South Carolina got to pick first.
Welcome to North Carolina. Was told, seriously, that two great job-openings I applied for in another group would not go to a woman or a Yankee, so don't get my hopes up. (Was offered both jobs. )

Anyway, racism was so obvious, and I asked her why she moved to NC from Chicago. She said that "the North" was just as racist and sexist as the South - they were just a lot sneakier about it.

[NutmegYankee]

43. The difference is the political structure of the South backs the racists.

There are racists in the Northeast, and the place is mega white in diversity, but the political structure overall backs diversity and human rights. I grew up in the Southeast, and went to college there.

I do encounter stupid shit up here. I live in a very blue collar town and have two neighbors that are hard right wingers. My immediate next door neighbor is a Christian Tea Partier. I know some would freak out, but we actually maintain pretty amicable relations despite being very divergent in views. We've had many discussions and I think he's softened a few views after them.

The biggest racist thing I hear is people refer to our little local market as "Ghandimart" because this nice Indian couple owns it. I sometimes think they don't realize how offensive that is. It's actually a privilege that family maintains a small market like that at the gas station, because the nearest supermarket is 8 miles away.

[dawg]

56. "the place is mega white in diversity ..."

I actually think that has a lot to do with the continued greater prevalence of racism in the South. Hate is often born out of fear, but there is very little reason to fear a group that makes up less than 10% of the population where you live.

On the other hand, if you live in an area that is 40-50% black, which is true of many places here in the South, fear becomes much more of an issue with some people.

Over the years, I have gotten a general impression that the "blacker" the town, the more racist the white people from that town tend to be.

[Lee-Lee]

48. I grew up in a very racial mill town in NC

And have traveled and lived all over. I'm not black but given my background (Native American and Filipino) a lot of people assume I am on appearance.

The only place I've actually ever been denied service in an establishment? Philly. It was obviously a practiced technique at this bar- we ordered beer, bartender filled obviously dirty glasses half full of a beer we didn't order. When we complained, he said "If you don't like how we do it here I suggest you go find a place more welcoming to your tastes".

If you set aside all the names called to me by people I arrested, the number of times
I've been called a racial slur to my face in the last 2 decades is remarkably low- but I had it happen in Pittsburgh and Chicago multiple times a brief visits. Chicago is the only place I've been called a "Chigger", I give them props for originality.

Now, I realize that growing up in NC I am sure I've become somewhat numb to how some things are here. But in my experience it's actually other areas where it's worse.

Now, 30 years ago when I was growing up? Yeah, I am sure that every stereotype about the south held true.

But I have watched a whole lot of change over the last 3 decades. The south has made remarkable gains in race relations and changed a lot for the better as each new generation is less tolerant of racism.

The north and Midwest, on the other hand, have never seen themselves as needing to change or made a widespread effort to change. So those areas have stayed the same as they were 20-30 years ago, and in my experience that's worse in many ways than what the south has grown into.

[abelenkpe]

53. Have lived in MA, VA and CA

Racism, sexism is everywhere. It's just in your face in VA. Seriously. Thought I'd escape it by moving to CA but imagine my disappointment when this state voted to turn back affirmative action? How could so many be fooled into voting against their own self interest? Granted my middle of the city neighborhood is very liberal but the burbs here are filled with the same gullible fox fed fools eager to judge those less fortunate than themselves and stuff the "other" into stereotypical boxes as the people living in the burbs of VA. Personally I blame media. And government reluctance to break up large corporations. While we have the illusion of choice the reality is that it is owned by a small number of vast corporations dedicated to keeping their viewers misinformed, separated and at odds with one another. So we spend our time in our own bubble never actually spending time or getting to know our neighbors. If we don't interact then it's easy to believe the medias portrayal of our neighbors. To put people in boxes according to color, gender, age, orientation, etc. This is why it's also disturbing to see public education dismantled. I honestly feel desegregation and affirmative action worked. That we needed to continue them for several generations. If we don't attend school together, don't interact at home or in the very near future at work (with remote work as I do now) than how easy will it be to keep us separated and in fear of one another? Our kids don't play together unsupervised. Many opt out of school altogether with home schooling. We are separated. Nothing will ever change unless we come together.

[True Blue Door]

61. I have a couple of thoughts on the seeming intractability of the South.

The more optimistic one is that it's due to the legacy of Reconstruction being sabotaged, and that simply restarting some of that federal emphasis on making the South a fair, educated, equal, and prosperous place would eventually lead to better integration with the rest of the country.

The more cynical one says some cultures reach a point of no return down a path of cruelty, malignance, and consciously waging war on the truth. That past that point, a society has only one of three futures: Withering away to nothing in its own toxicity, turning cancerous and destroying this country, or once again being destroyed in self-defense by it.

You can fine-grain it all you like and say the usual "yeahbuts": Yeahbut there are plenty of good people; yeahbut so-and-so town elected a liberal Mayor; yeahbut, yeahbut, yeahbut. And yet despite the long and ever-receding predictions of liberalization, the modern North-South line has advanced slower than the trenches of the Somme while the Southern right radicalizes at breakneck pace (a phrase that seems horribly likely to become literal as the Tea Party sector eventually, probably rediscovers the joys of lynching that they seem so rhetorically nostalgic for).