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cali

(114,904 posts)
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 07:03 AM Mar 2015

Indefensible: Israel 'spied on US-Iran nuclear talks and leaked details to Congress'

I am not one to use the word lightly, but treason comes to mind. Specifically, Congress critters accepting information on sensitive negotiations, gained from illegal means. I'm probably wrong and it's not actually treason, but ugh.

Israel has spied on Iran's nuclear talks with the United States and other major powers, the Wall Street Journal reported on Tuesday.

Israel quickly dismissed the report as "not true", and denied spying on the United States.

The report, quoting current and former US officials, said the operation was designed to infiltrate the talks and help build a case against the emerging terms of a deal.

Besides eavesdropping, Israel obtained information from confidential US briefings, informants and diplomatic contacts in Europe, the officials told the newspaper.

It added that more than the espionage, what irked the White House was the fact that Israel shared inside information with American legislators in a bid to sap support for a deal intended to limit Iran's nuclear programme.

<snip>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11491465/Israel-spied-on-US-Iran-nuclear-talks-and-leaked-details-to-Congress.html

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Indefensible: Israel 'spied on US-Iran nuclear talks and leaked details to Congress' (Original Post) cali Mar 2015 OP
It's become clear that Israel does not want Iran's nuclear program limited Fumesucker Mar 2015 #1
If by that you mean that Israel wants to bomb the everloving crap out of Iran, cali Mar 2015 #2
Yep. That's what it looks like to me - Netanyahu is lusting after the chance to bomb Iran, djean111 Mar 2015 #3
No, he's lusting after the United States bombing Iran hatrack Mar 2015 #15
Hatrack is correct: Netanyahu is lusting after getting the US to bomb Iran. BillZBubb Mar 2015 #56
He wants us to fight Iran Jim Beard Mar 2015 #60
I put nothing past Bibi baby Jim Beard Mar 2015 #61
Even the US has admitted they can't reach all of Iran's nuclear facilities to do a thorough job Fumesucker Mar 2015 #4
Gee...that brings to mind the song "bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran". Hmmmm. glinda Mar 2015 #38
You are right Jim Beard Mar 2015 #59
Israel Needs Iran as a Boogeyman to Keep Populace Frightened and War Profiteers Rich McKim Mar 2015 #5
That's the right wing way to power: fear, fear, and more fear. BillZBubb Mar 2015 #57
But spying on your allies is a good thing, no? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2015 #6
You must have missed, 'Israel shared inside information with American legislators" nt tridim Mar 2015 #8
So it's bad when our allies share what they get from spying with us? nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2015 #9
who do you think they shared it with, those supportive of the President vis a vis Iran cali Mar 2015 #11
When used to sabotage our own negotiations Bradical79 Mar 2015 #51
You did notice that the US only found out about this by spying on Israel. R Merm Mar 2015 #13
LOL...yes Oilwellian Mar 2015 #23
Wait, I thought we were just told they shared it with Congress. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2015 #32
It's not the spying -- it's the messing with internal US politics starroute Mar 2015 #31
Guess that is the outcome actions of a congress bought and sold by the 1% interests. glinda Mar 2015 #39
The fact that they spy on us is not surprising. The "sharing" with Congress may be immensely costly leveymg Mar 2015 #7
congress and a foreign nation conspire to undermine presidents policies...how democratic spanone Mar 2015 #10
Of course it is H2O Man Mar 2015 #12
If the Reps knew of the espionage, and did nothing, or alfredo Mar 2015 #20
Good question. H2O Man Mar 2015 #43
Intent? At least one of the 47 admitted to trying to sabotage our diplomatic efforts. alfredo Mar 2015 #46
With friends like that... NoAmericanTaliban Mar 2015 #14
Jonathan - not David karynnj Mar 2015 #16
kick....this should be the headline across the world spanone Mar 2015 #17
So they conspired with a foreign power to sabotage Obama. alfredo Mar 2015 #18
serious question... Takket Mar 2015 #19
They could use their nukes against Iran, if they can't get us to alfredo Mar 2015 #21
None of us use the word "treasonous" lightly, but we find ourselves using it more and more lately world wide wally Mar 2015 #22
Isreal would be irresponsible to its citizens if they didn't spy on the talks. NCTraveler Mar 2015 #24
they shared the info with congress to undermine the president's policies....that's the shock. spanone Mar 2015 #25
I get that. Still don't see the shock at all. NCTraveler Mar 2015 #30
+1 onenote Mar 2015 #36
True, but they enlisted US lawmakers in their act of sabotage. alfredo Mar 2015 #54
Very good Jim Beard Mar 2015 #58
About as indefensible as the US tapping world leaders phones? L0oniX Mar 2015 #26
this is particularly noxious as evidently the Israelis cali Mar 2015 #28
Election tiptonic Mar 2015 #27
OK, what if salib Mar 2015 #29
The heart of the question: is Congress conspiring with a foreign power? Maedhros Mar 2015 #55
They should take Boners pass port away when he gets to Israel randr Mar 2015 #33
Hahaha! glinda Mar 2015 #42
I see a lot of pretzel logic in the comments above Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2015 #34
Just to make sure I understand. Savannahmann Mar 2015 #35
You really think Israel and the US don't spy on each other all the time? eom Kurska Mar 2015 #37
To me the story is about members of Congress receiving G_j Mar 2015 #40
I think the very idea there is information classified from congress Kurska Mar 2015 #41
So you think information illegally gained from spying on delicate international G_j Mar 2015 #44
I think the idea of having information classified from congress is ridiculous. EOM Kurska Mar 2015 #45
Why do I get the impression whatchamacallit Mar 2015 #47
Were you equally outraged when we wire taped Angela Merkel? Kurska Mar 2015 #48
Yeah, I didn't think it was cool whatchamacallit Mar 2015 #49
In collusion with the American government to undermine the American government. Kurska Mar 2015 #50
Take up congress' roll with the administration whatchamacallit Mar 2015 #52
such as the specific information we are talking about? G_j Mar 2015 #53
 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
3. Yep. That's what it looks like to me - Netanyahu is lusting after the chance to bomb Iran,
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 07:12 AM
Mar 2015

and a lot of our Congress is lusting to enable him.
I doubt that Netanyahu would stop at Iran, too.

hatrack

(59,584 posts)
15. No, he's lusting after the United States bombing Iran
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:16 AM
Mar 2015

Why should he dirty his lily-white hands with actual war when we can do his bidding?

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
56. Hatrack is correct: Netanyahu is lusting after getting the US to bomb Iran.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 04:31 PM
Mar 2015

No sense doing the heavy lifting when you've got bozos eager to carry your baggage.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
4. Even the US has admitted they can't reach all of Iran's nuclear facilities to do a thorough job
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 07:13 AM
Mar 2015

Short of using nukes for the attack.

Israel doesn't have the capability of destroying Iran's nuclear facilities completely, again without using nukes.

Let Israel deploy nukes against Iran and see how fast they really do become international pariahs.

glinda

(14,807 posts)
38. Gee...that brings to mind the song "bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran". Hmmmm.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:00 PM
Mar 2015

Wonder who sang that?

McKim

(2,412 posts)
5. Israel Needs Iran as a Boogeyman to Keep Populace Frightened and War Profiteers Rich
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 07:31 AM
Mar 2015

Israel needs Iran as a boogeyman to keep their populace frightened, compliant and voting for The Right. Also they need to keep the flow of money for defense coming from the U.S. and finally to line the pockets of the defense industry here. When a populace is unafraid they start wanting social goods like housing, welfare, healthcare and education.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
6. But spying on your allies is a good thing, no?
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 07:39 AM
Mar 2015

Isn't that what we were told in wake of the Snowden revelations? That it was all perfectly normal and fine to spy on allies and enemies alike and, after all, 'everyone does it'?

Or is it only IOKIYANSA?

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
11. who do you think they shared it with, those supportive of the President vis a vis Iran
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 08:41 AM
Mar 2015

or those who oppose him?

R Merm

(405 posts)
13. You did notice that the US only found out about this by spying on Israel.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:03 AM
Mar 2015

So the truth is that everyone spies on everyone else friend or foe.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
32. Wait, I thought we were just told they shared it with Congress.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:25 AM
Mar 2015

Is 'sharing with Congress' now considered us finding out by 'spying on them'?

starroute

(12,977 posts)
31. It's not the spying -- it's the messing with internal US politics
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:16 AM
Mar 2015

Sharing the information with Congress was the real no-no, and that's what the administration is pissed about.

glinda

(14,807 posts)
39. Guess that is the outcome actions of a congress bought and sold by the 1% interests.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:03 PM
Mar 2015

They are fully functioning as their own Government in our "Government structure". They would see nothing wrong with that if they are so full of themselves and assured of their positions.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
7. The fact that they spy on us is not surprising. The "sharing" with Congress may be immensely costly
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 08:26 AM
Mar 2015

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
12. Of course it is
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:03 AM
Mar 2015

"treason," though it does not fit the limited definition identified in the Constitution.

The common mistake one finds in places such as DU is the incorrect assumption that a person (or people) can be charged with "treason" for anything that qualifies under the broad meaning of the term. The Constitution actually allows for but one distinct form to be prosecuted, with an ultimate penalty upon conviction. Yet there are numerous other, perhaps "lesser" forms of treason. And there is no evidence the Founding Fathers intended these to be exempt from prosecution (though not with the same penalty).

alfredo

(60,071 posts)
20. If the Reps knew of the espionage, and did nothing, or
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:27 AM
Mar 2015

agreed to use the leaks or intercepts, could they be a party to the act of espionage?

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
43. Good question.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:27 PM
Mar 2015

While I think I know the answer to it, I'm waiting for the opinion of a much better informed source before I attempt to answer this. Hopefully, that source will get back to me today.

There's been some disagreement, for example, on the status of a journalist who receives classified information from a source who is sharing it illegally. In this case, of course, it is not from a domestic source ("whistle-blower&quot .

That's a great question. Thanks.

NoAmericanTaliban

(1,237 posts)
14. With friends like that...
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:10 AM
Mar 2015

Who needs enemies. Not first time they spied on us. Long history of it. Remember David Pollack. Still in jail for spying for Israel.

karynnj

(59,501 posts)
16. Jonathan - not David
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:17 AM
Mar 2015

With the US government saying it was the BIGGEST of US secrets to that point -- and Israel is thought to have passed the secrets to other countries to meet its own goals.

Takket

(21,562 posts)
19. serious question...
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:22 AM
Mar 2015

Can Israel survive an attack on Iran without US help? Thinking in terms of the retaliation they would suffer for attacking Iran without being attacked first.

world wide wally

(21,740 posts)
22. None of us use the word "treasonous" lightly, but we find ourselves using it more and more lately
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:41 AM
Mar 2015

There must be a reason for that.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
24. Isreal would be irresponsible to its citizens if they didn't spy on the talks.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:57 AM
Mar 2015

Just as our government would be irresponsible if we weren't spying on Putin's every action. If Israel was the only country doing everything possible to spy on the talks I would be extremely shocked. Israel acts in its own benefit and people are shocked. Why don't people get we are one and the same? We spy on everyone and leak things during negotiations in order to improve our position. We do that. Why the shock when Israel does it?

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
30. I get that. Still don't see the shock at all.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:14 AM
Mar 2015

They are doing what they think is best for themselves. Israel has always had close friends in congress. They work very hard to make sure of that. To think this is the first time something like this has happened would be foolish. It is not the first time and won't be the last. They are under no contract with respect to whom they are to speak with in our government or citizens. We might think it goes against their best interests, but that is their decision. People really need to understand this. If State A spies on State B & C, then gives certain members of State B information with respect to said spying, then there is very little privileged about the information. The fact that the information was garnered by spying has no relevance on how or to whom State A disseminates the information. Not saying this won't backfire on Israel. I'm saying there is nothing shocking here and it happens daily worldwide.

There is nothing unusual about President Obama being undermined. It is discussed here regularly. It is always happening and is often cheered. What I find shocking is that others are shocked that a country would act in a manner it determines to be in its best interests. Israel can and will share information with whomever they want.

Over the last fifty years, has the US had diplomats talk to members of a country who were either not the ruling party, or not the top in command of the government, without the blessing of the heads of state. The answer is yes. Many times.

alfredo

(60,071 posts)
54. True, but they enlisted US lawmakers in their act of sabotage.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 04:11 PM
Mar 2015

It is permissible to act in our own interests, and for Israel to act in their own interests. The problem arises when Israel acts against our interests as they did in the Jonathan Pollard case, the Ben-ami Kadish case, and the USS Liberty murders.

1978- A Senate Foreign Relations staffer was passing US secrets to Israel, and later went to work with Richard Perle during the Reagan presidency. Perle had close ties to the Likud party.

Much of the Israeli espionage against us is industrial espionage, and has been for a long time. They are also good at buying US technology (with our tax dollars) then transferring it to China and other US competitors.

I don't mind being allied with Israel, but I do mind when they act against our best interest. A friendship should go both ways.

I was an Army spook working east Africa and the Mideast in the late sixties. Fun Travel and Adventure.


 

cali

(114,904 posts)
28. this is particularly noxious as evidently the Israelis
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:10 AM
Mar 2015

used that information to sabotage the administration in talks with Iran.

tiptonic

(765 posts)
27. Election
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:07 AM
Mar 2015

This could also be a another way, for the republicans to drive a wedge, between Jews and Democratics. Always thinking of the next election. But they will steal it anyway.

salib

(2,116 posts)
29. OK, what if
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:10 AM
Mar 2015

Bush was negotiating with Saudi Arabia on Military Bases. Turns out, they are actually negotiating to artificially control the oil fields of Iraq, as well. Israeli spies on the negotiations, or maybe Anonymous gets information, either way they pass it to Congress members. The Congress reacts and passes a referendum reminding the President that Congress should approve treaties.

Sound close enough?

Is it treason?

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
55. The heart of the question: is Congress conspiring with a foreign power?
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 04:19 PM
Mar 2015

If yes, then its problematic.

If Congress is using published, leaked information then no.

randr

(12,411 posts)
33. They should take Boners pass port away when he gets to Israel
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:25 AM
Mar 2015

He can stay in his adopted homeland.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
34. I see a lot of pretzel logic in the comments above
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:28 AM
Mar 2015

of folks who want to defend spying, while still being outraged that other peoples are spying, and then doing whatever they want with the info they gain from spying - in this case sharing that info with 'Team Red'.

Maybe I should be putting sarcasm tags in my comments upthread, but what I think this points out is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to defend 'spying' that serves your purposes, you have to accept that people who do not agree with you are just as morally justified in spying on you for their purposes. Otherwise, you're just a hypocrite.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
35. Just to make sure I understand.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 11:02 AM
Mar 2015

The problem is not that we spied on them, or they spied on us, we ruled out that objection with our everyone does it defense of the NSA listening in on everyones phone calls. The problem is that Israel told Congress what the Administration didn't want them to know.

Does anyone think about these things before they speak? I only ask because one of our arguments during the Bush years was that Congress wasn't doing oversight. We argued that Bush was keeping secrets from Congress, and Congress wasn't doing their job because Bush was a Republican.

Now we're mad that Congress knows what the Administration is doing. Or is it that Congress found out from Israel instead of from our people? I'm a little confused here, I readily admit it. Because I don't see how we can change tacts in nine years so dramatically.

Whoever decided to go to the Press with this complaint is an idiot of epic proportions. The window licking crayon eating moron who thought this would gin up outrage in the American People over Israel and Congress should be sent back to his previous job of asking if the customer wanted fries with that. Seriously, the gist of the outrage is that Israel told Congress. We can't get outraged that Israel found out what is going on because the entire defense during Snowden was everyone does it. Yeah, we did bad things, but everyone does it. That opens us up to being powerless to object to anyone spying on us. We used to send Diplomatic staff home when someone got caught spying on us, so now we're screwed on that too because everyone does it man.

Worse, how we found out is we were spying on the Israeli. So we found out they were spying on us, by spying on them. So no outrage there. All we're left with is the weak assed "They told Congress" complaint. That means our parties position is that the Administration isn't supposed to tell Congress anything. Now, worst case scenario, a Republican is elected to the White House in 2016. Then we can't even complain that the Administration is keeping Congress in the dark because our position is that it's a good thing to keep Congress in the dark until we are damned well good and ready to tell Congress what we want want them to know.

Does anyone else see the astonishing levels of arrogance that is going to be seen by the American People by this? That's the image we're reduced to. Congress doesn't have a right to know despite that whole Congressional Oversight thing we were pissed off about ten years ago. In fact, Congress has a duty not to know anything that we don't want them to know. The outrage is how dare Israel tell Congress anything. How do we spin that later when the Republicans are in charge and are keeping secrets? I don't think the public is going to buy the whole we're good people who keep secrets for the right reasons while they are bad people who keep secrets for the wrong reason argument.

It's hard to argue that you are more moral, more honorable than the other guys when you make these kinds of arguments gang. That's why the window licker needs to get fired. If this story gets traction, and it just might, then you can see people asking the candidates for the Oval Office if they believe it is a Presidential Duty to inform Congress and allow proper oversight in accordance with the Constitution, and a few pesky laws.

The Legislative Reorganization Act of 1946 (P.L. 79-601), for the first time, explicitly called for “legislative oversight” in public law. It directed House and Senate standing committees “to exercise continuous watchfulness” over programs and agencies under their jurisdiction; authorized professional staff for them; and enhanced the powers of the Comptroller General, the head of Congress’s investigative and audit arm, the General Accounting Office (GAO).
The Legislative Reorganization Act of 1970 (P.L. 91-510) authorized each standing committee to “review and study, on a continuing basis, the application, administration and execution” of laws under its jurisdiction; increased the professional staff of committees; expanded the assistance provided by the Congressional Research Service; and strengthened the program evaluation responsibilities of GAO.
The Congressional Budget Act of 1974 (P.L. 93-344) allowed committees to conduct program evaluation themselves or contract out for it; strengthened GAO’s role in acquiring fiscal, budgetary, and program-related information; and upgraded GAO’s review capabilities.


So President's Truman, Nixon, and Ford all signed laws regarding oversight of the Executive by Congress. And now we're out in the media furious that Congress knows something that the Administration didn't want them to. Doesn't anyone see that this is going to play out badly for our side? Talk about lack of transparency, this is fury that the obfuscation failed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_oversight

G_j

(40,366 posts)
40. To me the story is about members of Congress receiving
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:04 PM
Mar 2015

classified information from a foreign entity. I don't think THAT happens all the time.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
41. I think the very idea there is information classified from congress
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:10 PM
Mar 2015

Says something bad about the state of the United States.

G_j

(40,366 posts)
44. So you think information illegally gained from spying on delicate international
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 02:59 PM
Mar 2015

negotiations should be available to any member of Congress?

whatchamacallit

(15,558 posts)
47. Why do I get the impression
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 03:27 PM
Mar 2015

you wouldn't be spinning like a top if it was any other country than Israel?

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
48. Were you equally outraged when we wire taped Angela Merkel?
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 03:29 PM
Mar 2015

Why are you pretending it is some gigantic shock that allies spy on each other.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
50. In collusion with the American government to undermine the American government.
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 03:35 PM
Mar 2015

Now that is a concept that makes my head spin. You are aware that we're discussing a treat and congress has treaty powers right?

whatchamacallit

(15,558 posts)
52. Take up congress' roll with the administration
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 03:43 PM
Mar 2015

Unless you think this kind of foreign influence and meddling is an acceptable standard.

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