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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe killed so many innocent people!
I am so angry. This is nothing new. It's all stuff we have known for years. But it's all coming back up with our new wars. Our new claim to being the world police. Our new game to control the middle east.
So many people died. So many people were wounded. So many still suffer to this day. And why? For fucking money!
Why aren't these warmongering, lowlife, lying piece of shit bastards not even being tried?
I don't know about you, but I have more than a couple friends and family members that will never be the same because of the Bush family, friends and administration.
Prosecute these bastards!
http://www.gregpalast.com/bffdownload/
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:15 PM - Edit history (1)
The continuing war on "terror." Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia and anywhere else the US decides to kill with drones. The war on people of color. The war on women. The war on the poor and middle class.
It's all related. It's all about the oligarchs.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)So when did the word "oligarch" become the new catchphrase on DU? Between you and Rhett I've seen it about 20 times today.
Define the term for me... Yes I can google it but I want to know what the DU definition is?
Thanks.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I can't speak for rhett, but I use it to mean exactly what it means. A ruler in the oligarchy.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)There is actually some data/research on this...
A great deal of empirical research speaks to the policy influence of one or another set of actors, but until recently it has not been possible to test these contrasting theoretical predictions against each other within a single statistical model. We report on an effort to do so, using a unique data set that includes measures of the key variables for 1,779 policy issues.
Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.
Source.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:27 PM - Edit history (1)
There is nothing wrong with the word "oligarchs" either at all or in the way I used it.
I read your post incorrectly on the $30. Not sure why you feel the need respond with such sarcasm. As I said above, and what your abstract states, is one in the same.
Here's an article about the study the two professors did that is referenced in your abstract
http://m.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746
Joe Turner
(930 posts)Shortest Definition. Wall Street and the political ruling class they own.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Rhettorick and I made it up.
We're that good!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)it up.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Shh! Don't tell anyone!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)And wrong
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I get lazy and shorten it, but I think most understand what is meant.
marym625
(17,997 posts)For me, I didn't shorten it. Absolutely nothing wrong with the word or how I used it. Unless, well, maybe our friend wants to correct a few dictionaries, including Oxford.
Hi, doll! how are you?
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I think I sense a flair for the dramatic.
marym625
(17,997 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)'Dramatic' is a good word to define the sudden emergence of this 'all powerful' group that suddenly requires WE go BACK to Iraq and start all over again.
Well, if you watch and believe anything you see on the Corporate Media I suppose.
Where did this all powerful group come from all of a sudden?
Were we unaware with all of our 'Intel' that there was this group taking over huge areas of the ME for years?
Were we looking the other way?
Who ARE these all powerful people who came out of nowhere AFTER the War in Iraq supposedly ended?
And who are now the reason to start it up all over again?
Perhaps YOU can explain how the US failed to notice them until a couple of months ago?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)It gets confusing when you spend so much time beating around the bush...
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)where you stand. Seems you are here to monitor our word use. I will guess that you aren't progressive. Neocon? Third Way? Help me out. Are you here to argue a particular point of view or what?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)be required to enrage the public, and unite world opinion against themselves, thereby creating a virtual guarantee that a shitstorm of bombs would rain down on their own heads.
These guys are the neocons' wet dream.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But now what? We can't exactly pretend they don't exist. Bush created that mess, but we can't just walk away from it now. That would be incredibly irresponsible, IMO. OTOH< I think we need to be more of a supporting force, rather than the front line fighters.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)The $500 Billion dollars worth of weaponry that was reported "missing" or "misplaced" this week, what do you wanna bet it went straight to ISIS? The MIC needs another war. What better way than to build a bigger boogieman? If they can't have Iran, then ISIS will do.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)EX500rider
(10,518 posts)Pentagon loses track of $500 million in weapons, equipment given to Yemen.
I doubt they will go "straight to ISIS" with Saudi Arabia between Yemen and Iraq.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)That article is just what they are admitting to. How much money and weapons has gone missing? And it's funny how it just ends up in the wrong place. Oops!
bvar22
(39,909 posts)stop giving them weapons,
Stay the fuck OUT of their business.
Our military "kills people and breaks things".
That is not the way to "help" a country.
How many time do we have to prove that before you see it?
We have children going to bed hungry, homelessness, wage & disparity CRISIS (and much more) right here at home. We can save the rest of the World AFTER we save ourselves.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)to actually become a threat.
We even have similar types here in the US, in fact one of them has managed to gain enough power to seize control over the House and the Senate.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Have because they ruled themselves just as they wanted? What do you think caused them to exist?
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But they exist. Dubya created that mess. But now what? Just say "my bad" and walk away?
marym625
(17,997 posts)If we showed the world we knew we fucked up, that we punished those responsible, and let the middle east take care of the middle east instead of going in again, we might see fewer people joining ISIS
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)their ability to recruit people because the fact is there will always be ignorant people who will join such groups that want to kill people and preach hate be it ISIS, the Taliban or the Republican/Tea Party here in the US.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Just that it wouldn't be as easy. If the Germans had prosecuted their own, I think there would have been an easier, shorter healing.
Just my opinion. But we'll never know. And that sucks.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Because they won't be punished.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)would probably continue with their program of terror until they are either killed or they get their own little paradise for them to rule as they see fit which based on what we have seen them do so far I would opinion as being a bad thing.
marym625
(17,997 posts)To police and not us, again, ISIS would die out.
But, again, we'll never know.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)always bit us on the ass.
marym625
(17,997 posts)And still not be isolationist
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)Because thats what would happen here I am willing to bet.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:18 AM - Edit history (1)
And we could always step in if it actually started getting that bad.
We had no problem leaving the people in Rwanda to die. Letting all the girls stolen and now being used as suicide bombers and the others killed and raped by Boko Haram go without help. And so many other times when our interests are not in danger
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)involved? Few thousand baked roasty toasty in a nice oven? Few million? How about a few miles of heads on a pike??
marym625
(17,997 posts)And who is supposed to stop us? How many do you think it's OK to burn alive with white phosphorus? Kill innocent people with drones? Evidently, we're allowed more than others.
What about the girls taken by Boko Haram? How many blow themselves and others up before we step in because, evidently, that's OK.
I am not saying ISIS isn't wreaking havoc. But I also would not put them on the same level as Hitler or Hideki Tojo. Not even close. And I don't know how much I believe that is in the press right now. Especially when there were stories that have already been debunked.
We are not the world police. We also only act when our interests are in jeopardy. When we act because it's the right thing to do for human beings, and we act equally for all, and we stop committing war crimes, and we stop usurping governments to suit our needs, I will agree we should step in immediately. Until then, we need to allow the people in the region do their best. When and if it gets to a point that they actually need our help, unlike the what we did to help create ISIS, we should stay out of it
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)nothing like we did nothing before when it did raise to that level and it ended up costing the world dearly because of our choice to ignore it because it wasnt our problem.
And no we arent the world police but we are part of this world.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Being used as suicide bombers too.
There's a big difference now. We are aware and we wouldn't make that mistake again.
But we have to stop being the middle east police. We only make things worse and many people suffer because of it.
Please see posts 44 and 96 on this thread. Maybe it's time we play it safe for America before we start jumping in and killing Americans and others.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)with them.
Some of that might be simple as basic training for their police on handling a crime scene other help might be say helping to build a school, there is alot of help we can provide that doesnt involve a drone attack and all of it can lead to stopping ISIS in time.
marym625
(17,997 posts)And I don't have a problem with that kind of help, if it's requested. But nothing at all to do with war. Not us.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)should be used only for a limited amount of time and only in the most dire of circumstances when there is nothing else that can be done by the local governments at all.
marym625
(17,997 posts)But that is not where we are now. Or them.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)how can we, in good conscience, simply walk away.
It's like starting a fire in someone's else and just leaving them to deal with it.
We have an ethical obligation to do something here, IMO.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I think we will cause more harm than good.
We can help in other ways than waging war. Post 109 talked about other ways to help.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Obviously, I agree that humanitarian aid is important in times of peace, but I training police to handle crime scenes will NOT stop ISIS.
But there we go. We are not likely to agree on this subject.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)the idea that doing so would stop all the bad people in the world from doing bad things is naive. It's a lovely thought, but not very realistic, I'm afraid.
And frankly, that sense of justice might be worth the wave of political instability it could unleash.
I'm with you in my heart, but not in my head.
marym625
(17,997 posts)But it could change some of the hatred toward us
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)we never heard of this group until they had taken over large regions of the ME, or so we are told. Please give us a definition of who these people are, and where were they BEFORE we illegally invaded Iraq?
Thank you!
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)As for them being enemies..............imo they should be the enemies of anyone who doesnt think its ok to sit back and let people be beheaded or burned alive.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to the point that they are capable of taking over large portions of the ME, passed unnoticed by the US who declared an end to the Iraq War, are now the REASON WHY WE NEED TO START THAT ILL FATED WAR ALL OVER AGAIN??
I didn't think so. Where WERE they one year ago before the Corporate Media started showing pretty sophisticated videos of what looked like characters from a Hollywood set, complete with expensive outfits, masks (why the masks btw?), with a scare 'terrorist' look, right after the funding for the worst and most failed and illegal war finally ended?
And WHY would these powerful people kill JOURNALISTS rather than, let's say, CONTRACTORS?
Terrorists generally USE journalists to 'get their side out'. I find it odd that almost ALL of their victims are journalists who were more likely to report the FACTS about what is going on over there?
A lot of people are wondering about this. So I don't blame you for not wanting to take it on.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)I would think the whole cutting off of heads and the burning people alive would have told you enough but then some people are never satisfied it would seem.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)As for the beheadings, you must not have been around during the Nick Berg case.
Do you feel the same way about the slaughter of innocent children with White Phospherous eg? Ever seen the bodies of those innocents?
War is evil. Evil things happen once war begins. Rapes, torture, murder, beheadings and much, much worse. Those who are unfortunate enough to witness the horrors of war don't really differentiate between one way of murdering people or another.
Yes, to an American audience using one method of killing CAN rile them enough, or so it is thought, enough to start demanding JUSTICE, AGAIN. But to veterans of War, it's just one more atrocious, inhumane act CAUSED by those who started the whole horror to begin with.
Forgive me if I don't think that those who started this disaster are the ones to go BACK to try to 'fix it'.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)ones involved in his death.
Pictures? Yup seen plenty of them also plenty of the ovens from the concentration camps and the pits, have you?
As for this current problem with ISIS I am just not sure if I can be like you and tell the locals "fuck you" since our fuck up was what pried opened the door for ISIS to come in though I do agree with you that sending in a large part of our military isnt the answer.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)illegal Iraq Invasion based on the fact that it was all a lie, AND that what has since happened to that and other surrounding countries WOULD be the result of such a criminal enterprise.
You must not have been around when those of us who vehemently opposed this massive crime predicted what is happening now. Not that it took a lot of ingenuity to do so, the guilty parties were not shy about stating what their real goals actually WERE.
Michael Ledeen eg, promised to turn the entire ME into a glass parking lot and when asked 'when' his now infamous response was 'faster please'. Well it has taken a bit longer than the 'months, weeks maybe' predicted by Rummy, but then that WAS the goal, forever war in the ME.
I guess they couldn't keep using Al Queda as support for what appeared to be a failed operation after more than a decade, began to drop.
But now we have a new 'enemy'.
I remember being attacked for opposing the original invasion by right wing Bush supporters with the same personal attacks 'so you don't care about the Iraqi people, you are willing to allow Al Queda to brutalize them etc etc.
If the anti-Iraq Invasion sentiment had prevailed, there would be no ISIS because Hussein, bad as he was, kept these elements under control.
Breaking down Iraq's infrastructure paved the way for forever war.
So now, the thinking is, 'sorry we failed Iraq to the point where one more than 4 million of their citizens are STILL in refugee camps in Jordan and Syria, and killed one million of them and turned their country into Mad Max etc.
AND made it possible for ISIS to emerge as a supposedly more powerful group than any seen over there in living memory, fully armed, capable of stealing oil revenues etc.
But hey, TRUST US! We will take care of THIS GROUP now, doing exactly what we did before.
No, I am not the one saying 'fuck you' to the locals. I am one of those who tried desperately to prevent what is happening to the locals by keeping our WMDS out of the ME.
I would say that those supporting ANOTHER round of US intervention are the ones saying 'fuck the locals'. Even more so now that we have seen all those predictions we made a decade ago, come true.
Seems to me the Kurds and other ME armies are far more capable of stopping ISIS than the Western powers who helped create them.
This feels like Deja Vu. Same 'we have to save them' only now we have recent history to argue against the West saving ANYTHING or ANYONE in that region of the world.
So go ahead and wish another decade of Western intervention on those unfortunate people.
I'm for allowing them to take care of their own business which they appear capable of doing without more failure from the West.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)And yes I opposed the invasion as well but I dont think its right to just throw those people in the region under a bus because some douchebags (Bush and those in his administration) fucked their country over.
I'm not advocating for a full scale assault though or a "surge" because that probably would be futile though we might have to provide some military assistance if the locals need it but such assistance needs to be rare.
Our main focus though should be in bringing some of their people over here for training for their civilian and military forces plus I would suggest helping them setup a good school system because if they can get a decently educated base along with a decent police and military it might give them an edge in the long run against ISIS.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)at this point.
We sure didn't help them over the course of a decade of claiming to be doing so.
The ONLY reason, as was true the last time, that there is even talk of a return to Iraq is MONEY for Defense Contractors.
The US doesn't care one bit about the people of the ME. Our FPs are racist.
'Treat the Iraqis like Dogs' Gen. Miller to US Troops.
And we did.
The Malikki Govt we created is as bad as if not worse, than the previous one we first supported for decades, and then toppled.
The US is not interested in 'helping' anyone over their other than War Profiteers, including the massively profitable Arms Dealing Business.
Anyone who was here a decade ago sees nothing different at all about these appeals to 'compassion for people' when compassion is not a human quality possessed by the warmongers who started all this, knows that any attempt to start funding further 'help' for the people of that region, is as false now as it was then.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)U.S. knew was favored by journalists?
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)that one's coming soon.
malaise
(267,800 posts)War is evil
marym625
(17,997 posts)As when it started. Same here, my cousin will never be the same. So many won't be.
Why do they get away with it? And now we're killing people with drones. Indiscriminately.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)While I didn't know Maj. Houseal, I went to high school with one of his younger siblings.
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and all their enablers and liars should be in prison, along with these killers. The Bush cabal lied America into an illegal, immoral, unnecessary and disastrous war.
My friend's family will never be the same -- nor will those who know them.
And our world also will be the poorer for Bush Jr.'s war for decades to come.
marym625
(17,997 posts)For you. For his family and friends.
How will the world ever forgive us if we just let this go?
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)I remember news of another fratricide incident in Kuwait. That one involved the same Army battalion in which I had served in Vietnam, the war that gave birth to the term, 'fragging.' Appropriately, DoD and its service branches include these non-battle deaths in their war casualty database.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and quickly went downhill from there.
"Why aren't these warmongering, lowlife, lying piece of shit bastards not even being tried?"
Because political war criminals in the most powerful country in the world can never be tried.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)on July 3, 1863. But, yeah, I pretty much take your point.
Although I am prone to despair, I take solace that international law finally caught up with Milosevic and Karadzic. The wheels of justice grind exceedingly fine . . . and slow.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)but agree about the wheels of justice
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)two 'high points' -- the other being Cemetery Ridge -- at Gettysburg that Union soldiers under General Meade occupied and held against ferocious Confederate onslaughts on Day 2 of the Battle of Gettysburg. The battle was won for the Union on the 2nd Day, Pickett's eponymous charge on the 3rd day merely the coda to a resounding defeat for the Confederacy (and the last time any serious Confederate invasion of the North occurred).
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I was in a discussion one time with a Civil War re-enactor for the Confederate side. He talked about pride of heritage, pride of history.
I asked was he proud that that heritage was founded on chattel slavery? That discouraged further conversation about pride and heritage.
I also made a comment in a local letter to the editor expressing my opinion that many people in the US had obviously never gotten over their Civil War. I am not sure if the comment or my obviously French name was responsible for the response, but the response was quite heated.
I am a dual national, Canada/US, moving here as a teen, so I realize that my experience and history are different from many, but if the US cannot get past the civil war I do not see how the country will not continue to have the political warfare that goes on.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)its "Lost Cause" and romanticizing ante-bellum life in the South. I think most have gotten over the Civil War now; the battles you see today are rear-guard skirmishes over what the legacy of the 1960s is to be and to mean. I mean the 60s saw the partial liberation of entire swaths of formerly second-class citizens and the right-wing and the older generation in the South have not completely gotten over that little development yet.
I meant only to tweak your "quickly went downhill" verbiage with a little shout-out to the brave Union boys who saved the day for the Union at Little Round Top. Whether their sacrifices will in the long run be justified, of course, remains to be seen.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)was sarcasm on my part. I am not one to classify "all Americans" or "all American actions" as anything. The US has done much good in its history, but the memory of good actions can be wiped out by subsequent bad actions. And in my opinion, many US citizens do not realize that the "history" that they often read is sanitized to present an image consistent with self-image rather than reality.
I agree with your 1960's analogy. We moved here in 1965 and my first memories were of the Civil Rights struggle. When you wrote:
"I mean the 60s saw the partial liberation of entire swaths of formerly second-class citizens and the right-wing and the older generation in the South have not completely gotten over that little development yet."
a very nice summation of 50 years of political history. Congratulations
appalachiablue
(41,052 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)I just vehemently disagree.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)the genocide or the slavery?
marym625
(17,997 posts)That they can't be punished. I know they won't be. I know the arguments against it. I just disagree. We could and we should.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I just feel that the present system is so rigged for the 1% that absent any significant change by the silent majority nothing will be done. Remember that President Obama ruled out any prosecution of the Bush Administration. Perhaps he realized that he would have no support for any action.
marym625
(17,997 posts)He was covering his own ass. There are a great many things that the President has done that are good. But there are some he hasn't.
I agree that the cards are stacked against us. Especially now. Probably more now than ever before in our history. But damn, we cannot let it go on. We just can't.
I don't know what to do. I am not that wise. But something must be done
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)cause to the american people and thats why he didnt press for an investigation, it was a mistake though on his part imo because we all saw how thankful the republicans were to him for extending that olive branch.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Especially since he ran on prosecuting as one the things he would do.
Doesn't really matter. They won't be prosecuted and the world lost. Including the American people
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment -- I would want to find out directly from my Attorney General -- having pursued, having looked at what's out there right now -- are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it's important-- one of the things we've got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing betyween really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I've said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances. Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in coverups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it.
marym625
(17,997 posts)But he didn't. Instead, he gave them immunity.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)or in other words he acted like what he is.....................a politician.
marym625
(17,997 posts)And that if founded, would prosecute. Instead he gave them a complete pass.
It's wrong
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)in such a way that it left him an out when it came to prosecution.
msongs
(67,193 posts)Just different tacts. Which is why he won't prosecute.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... my very good friend, those that could have and should have saw to it that those War Criminals were brought to justice, either thru incompetence or design, instead let them not just walk free, but left them with a multitude of national venues to try and sell us their evil shit again. And that, as much as the evil they did, is unforgivable.
Is anyone truly surprised that these traitors continue to act as they do?
marym625
(17,997 posts)That just brought me to tears.
I know. I get it. I understand. It doesn't stop me from being angry. From being just so sad. And mostly, just so very disappointed in the country that we want to believe in vs the country we actually have.
Thank you, my friend.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)The last Prez serious about doing that was JFK, and Poppy Bush put
an end to that; then Brother Bobby had to go too, as he was headed
for the WH.
The Zapruder film, RFK, the Gary Webb story, et. al. are very convincing
illustrations of how messing with the Dark Side is an increasingly risky business.
marym625
(17,997 posts)But I am going to try to find it again.
Bobby was a bigger threat than his brother.
Why don't we storm the castle, so to speak. This is what is going to cause the end of our country as we have known it. Even with all the failings, we have been able to keep things in check. Now, they have autonomy
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)It's what it took in our "new mortal enemy" Venezuela, to reverse the CIA inspired
military over-throw of Hugo Chavez. The people by the 100s of thousands surrounded
the Presidential Palace in non-violent defiance of the coup, ultimately the Palace Guard
troops turned their guns away from Chavez and arrested the coup instigators.
It's all here in an excellent on-the-scene award winning documentary of the entire
failed coup attempt. It's by some random Dutch film-makers who were per chance
on the scene already when it started unfolding and were allowed to keep their cameras
rolling from start to finish. An amazing film if you haven't seen it.
marym625
(17,997 posts)The name of it is the same as the song? The revolution will not be televised?
Thank you. I believe that is what will have to happen. And, if it is, I hope it happens as peacefully.
Thank you!
marym625
(17,997 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)but it helps when googling it to add "Chavez" after the name of the movie, because
otherwise you get scads of links to the popular 1970 Gil Scott-Heron song by that name.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Thanks!
onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)Two of them were killed two years apart. The Hubbard family is destroyed forever.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I'm so sorry.
And the people responsible for their unnecessary deaths should be punished. And I don't mean the Iraq people
onecaliberal
(32,478 posts)The entire bush cabal should be in prison.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)It wasn't until many years after the war that I located and talked to the family of a friend who was KIA in Vietnam and learned he was named after an uncle who was KIA at Anzio in WWII.
Joe Hearne Rufty, Salisbury, NC
July 21, 1917 - June 2, 1944
KIA Anzio Beach, Italy
Joe Hearne Rufty, Salisbury, NC
February 23, 1945 - January 29, 1970
KIA Thua Thien Province, I Corps, South Vietnam
Panel 14W, Line 80
For both Joe Hearne Ruftys
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)That information hit me pretty hard when I discovered it. The two eptaphs tell a tragic story.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Yes, powerful, extremely sad story.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)We were together on a hill out in the jungle on Christmas Day, 1969.
I remember being at a party in Westwood, CA after the war and hearing the sound of a Laugh Box, and discovering tears pouring down my face and being so shocked and scared because I didn't know why.
It was only when I snuck into the bathroom to wash my face that it came back. Joe, on Christmas day on a jungle hill out toward the A Shau, getting a Christmas present from home with chocolate chip cookies, a bottle of whiskey...and a Laugh Box. Sitting around playing poker in a poncho hooch on that Christmas day, and every once in a while somebody hitting the button on the Laugh Box and all of us cracking up.
And, a month later, Joe going down with a sucking chest wound from machine gun fire and my men volunteering unanimously to rappel from choppers into the firefight to try to save Joe. They wouldn't let us do it because we'd lose too many that way, and it wouldn't have helped, anyway. Joe died either on the jungle penetrator as they winched him up to the Medevac chopper or on the floor of the chopper. I'll never forget those good, good men who were willing to lay their lives on the line against very steep odds to try to save a wounded officer..
Joe was just one guy, one loss. How many other Joes died in all of the wars on all of the sides?
I can't forget the words of a former North Vietnamese Army soldier in his book about having to search, after the war, for the remains of his fallen comrades. He wrote about searching in "the "screaming jungle" ...
marym625
(17,997 posts)I had to acknowledge your heart breaking, well written post.
I wish I could end the wars. I wish I could hug you. I'm so very sorry
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Blows. My. Mind.
This. Must. Stop.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Seriously. I just an at a complete loss as to what we can do
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)That would be a start.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I am 100% with you.
There is no doubt in my mind that Hillary knew all this before she voted to go to war. I don't know how I can possibly prove it, but I am trying. Part of why I have been going through old stuff all day. This article made me sure of it. It took Greg Palast over a decade to prove it. I'm sure somewhere her name is on it too.
Oops. Wrong thread. Thought I was on my post Blood For No Oil.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)one thing we can all do legally is spread the word that the Oil Age is over, thanks to the Japanese. Really.
The faster we all switch to cars that don't need gas/oil the faster oil is removed from any argument that uses "US Interests" in the Middle East. There would be no war for oil if oil wasn't needed.
Toyota's new gasoline free car goes on sale later this year and Honda will have one on the market next year.
No oil, no gas, no fuel injectors, no radiator, no tune ups, no smog, no smog tests.
Green Fuel produced in the US for the US.
The US could have led this revolution but sadly, Obama cut the funding for this important research and favored fracking.
marym625
(17,997 posts)That is beyond awesome! Thank you
Response to marym625 (Reply #33)
Corruption Inc This message was self-deleted by its author.
marym625
(17,997 posts)It needs to
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)I just went back through so much stuff from 2000 forward, and therefore, even back decades, and the anger became as fresh as it was when this first started.
What really kills me is that there is no way that many that voted for that horrific war didn't know the reality of why we went in. And here they are, asking for us to put them in charge.
virgogal
(10,178 posts)have taken place in the last 75 years.
They made me angrier and I've been around for all of them.
Horrors.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Or...
I understand. Because they basically took our country and made it a murderous imperial horror. I know we are not innocents before them. But this is so blatant and so horrific.
I think it makes me feel guiltier than what Reagan, Johnson, etc did.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)filed etc etc. Pretty genocidal imo, at least it was considered to be during the Bush era when we had hopes that the liars and deceivers who started it all would be brought to justice some day.
Now, we have to face the awful realization that what we viewed as crimes against humanity, appears to be US policy.
840high
(17,196 posts)Hence, no prosecution
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)From this post. But I didn't expect disagreement and challenge either. So thank you
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)like 1984.
marym625
(17,997 posts)So very tired is right. Never ending.
cstanleytech
(26,080 posts)Response to marym625 (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Response to marym625 (Original post)
Corruption Inc This message was self-deleted by its author.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Maybe the bad ones just speak louder and better. As it has been so often in history