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marym625

(17,997 posts)
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:06 PM Mar 2015

We killed so many innocent people!

I am so angry. This is nothing new. It's all stuff we have known for years. But it's all coming back up with our new wars. Our new claim to being the world police. Our new game to control the middle east.

So many people died. So many people were wounded. So many still suffer to this day. And why? For fucking money!

Why aren't these warmongering, lowlife, lying piece of shit bastards not even being tried?

I don't know about you, but I have more than a couple friends and family members that will never be the same because of the Bush family, friends and administration.

Prosecute these bastards!

http://www.gregpalast.com/bffdownload/

145 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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We killed so many innocent people! (Original Post) marym625 Mar 2015 OP
What are our new wars? Agschmid Mar 2015 #1
The war on ISIS marym625 Mar 2015 #2
Seems outrageous... Agschmid Mar 2015 #6
The DU definition? marym625 Mar 2015 #8
Worth a read, but you'll need $30.00 to access it. Damn those Princeton Oligarchs... Agschmid Mar 2015 #10
$30 for what? marym625 Mar 2015 #14
Define the term for me. Joe Turner Mar 2015 #47
What?? You never heard that word except on DU? Are you JOKING? sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #80
evidently marym625 Mar 2015 #83
Well, I'm not trying to diminish your power, or Rhett's for that matter, but I don't think YOU made sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #85
LMAO! marym625 Mar 2015 #88
Okay, I won't! Lol! sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #128
No clearly I've heard of it, I just don't think people here understand the definition. Agschmid Mar 2015 #92
How very pompous of you. marym625 Mar 2015 #101
It's my fault. You are so astute to catch me in the error. I actually meant Plutocratic-Oligarchs. rhett o rick Mar 2015 #102
I know what you meant. marym625 Mar 2015 #104
I wouldn't exactly call ISIS an example of the oppressed peoples of the world.... n/t Adrahil Mar 2015 #22
Yah me either... Agschmid Mar 2015 #23
It's dramatic. marym625 Mar 2015 #28
Definitely sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #91
Failed to notice who? Agschmid Mar 2015 #93
I'm seeing projection there. It's very clear where sabrina stands what isn't clear is rhett o rick Mar 2015 #103
I'd like to call it "non-delusional". Agschmid Mar 2015 #118
Really? You are self identified as "non-delusional"?? Isn't everyone? nm rhett o rick Mar 2015 #145
And who publically exposed their own demon-like behavior in exactly the precise manner which would GoneFishin Mar 2015 #127
Except for the fact that the Iraq War created them BrotherIvan Mar 2015 #26
Well, I agree with that. So does Obama. Adrahil Mar 2015 #36
How about we stop giving them weapons BrotherIvan Mar 2015 #40
Yes I am sure the US government intended ISIS to get ahold of those weapons cstanleytech Mar 2015 #56
Bingo! marym625 Mar 2015 #81
I think you mean 500 million... EX500rider Mar 2015 #142
Million, billion, pallets of cash...who cares? BrotherIvan Mar 2015 #144
Stop killing them and their friends and families, bvar22 Mar 2015 #143
No, it didnt create them. The war though did create enough destabilization in the area cstanleytech Mar 2015 #54
Really? You think they came out like they marym625 Mar 2015 #27
I think Dubya created the conditions for them to arise. Adrahil Mar 2015 #38
Maybe, just maybe marym625 Mar 2015 #39
I wish that was the case but I really doubt it would much if any impact on cstanleytech Mar 2015 #57
I have no dreams of it ending anything marym625 Mar 2015 #59
"we'll never know. And that sucks." Agreed and yes it does suck. cstanleytech Mar 2015 #63
Yup, and unicorns might prance out of the forest too. n/t Adrahil Mar 2015 #64
Well we won't ever know marym625 Mar 2015 #69
No we wont and no they probably wont be but even if it did happen the leadership for ISIS cstanleytech Mar 2015 #74
I think if we leave it to the area that it's attacking marym625 Mar 2015 #75
Yes but we have tried isolationism at varies times in our history and its cstanleytech Mar 2015 #78
We can leave this alone marym625 Mar 2015 #79
And have a repeat of Europe after WWI which led to millions dying before and during WWII? cstanleytech Mar 2015 #84
I totally disagree marym625 Mar 2015 #86
Getting that bad? Just how much badder would it have to be before you would agree to get cstanleytech Mar 2015 #94
seriously? marym625 Mar 2015 #98
I didnt say they were "at" that level rather I was pointing out that they could get to it if we did cstanleytech Mar 2015 #105
We are part of the world when it comes to those poor girls marym625 Mar 2015 #106
Of course we cant be the police but we can help the locals find solutions to the problem of dealing cstanleytech Mar 2015 #109
I agree marym625 Mar 2015 #111
I cant agree there because there might come a time when such a thing is needed but it cstanleytech Mar 2015 #114
I can agree with that marym625 Mar 2015 #115
If we are responsible for the rise of ISIS... Adrahil Mar 2015 #121
I, obviously, disagree. marym625 Mar 2015 #124
I don;t see how any of those things would help right now. Adrahil Mar 2015 #137
nope. seems we will not. marym625 Mar 2015 #140
Yeah, unfortunately, they won't. But... Adrahil Mar 2015 #120
Never thought or said it would stop all the bad people. marym625 Mar 2015 #123
Doubt it. But I don't disagree that we should involve ourselves differently... Agschmid Mar 2015 #68
What and WHO are 'ISIS"?? I thought OUR enemy was Al Queda? Can you explain why sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #82
Wiki is your friend cstanleytech Mar 2015 #90
So you can't explain how an all powerful group of people who managed to control the oil revenues sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #95
I simply linked you an article about them, you wanted to know who they were after all though cstanleytech Mar 2015 #97
Why journalists, and not Mercenaries? Seems like an odd choice for a group who are our 'enemies'. sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #99
Yes I am well aware of Berg and what happened to him and later on what happened to some of the cstanleytech Mar 2015 #107
Explain you 'be like and tell the locals 'fuck you' applies to ME? I OPPOSED the sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #133
Ever heard of two wrongs dont make a right? Thats why. cstanleytech Mar 2015 #134
I am opposed to failure being repeated. We are probably the LAST country that can help them sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #141
Hint : Who killed two Reuters journalists in 2003 when they fired on the Palistine Hotel which the GoneFishin Mar 2015 #130
WE have to depose Maduro so TPP will work Doctor_J Mar 2015 #132
One of my nephews will never be the same again malaise Mar 2015 #3
The anger and pain I feel is just as raw marym625 Mar 2015 #5
My friend's brother was killed in Iraq by a fellow soldier. Octafish Mar 2015 #4
I'm so sorry for your friend's loss. marym625 Mar 2015 #7
R.I.P. Major Houseal pinboy3niner Mar 2015 #18
The US was founded on genocide and slavery guillaumeb Mar 2015 #9
Well, I'd like to think it went a little bit uphill (npi) at Little Round Top KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #11
I am not familiar with Little Round Top guillaumeb Mar 2015 #13
Sorry, I often assume more than I should. Little Round Top was one of the KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #20
thanks. you saved me a google search guillaumeb Mar 2015 #30
The South spent an entire century after 1865 pissing and moaning about KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #37
"quickly went downhill" guillaumeb Mar 2015 #42
Gen. Joshua L. Chamberlain and the 20th Maine were heros, the best. appalachiablue Mar 2015 #43
I understand your argument marym625 Mar 2015 #15
what in particular, guillaumeb Mar 2015 #32
Neither marym625 Mar 2015 #35
I agree, if that makes sense guillaumeb Mar 2015 #41
on the contrary marym625 Mar 2015 #45
I think it was more that he had to weigh the benefits of a conviction vs the potential dmg it could cstanleytech Mar 2015 #112
Sorry, we disagree on the why marym625 Mar 2015 #113
Are you referring to this ? cstanleytech Mar 2015 #116
That's one of them marym625 Mar 2015 #119
Well you might want to find the others then as he didnt say he would prosecute in that one cstanleytech Mar 2015 #122
He said he would investigate marym625 Mar 2015 #125
Yes he said he would investigate but if you read the entire thing he said the rest of it cstanleytech Mar 2015 #126
the killing continues thanks to the obama administration. msongs Mar 2015 #12
yep. marym625 Mar 2015 #17
Unfortunately Mary... 99Forever Mar 2015 #16
In a way, I am. marym625 Mar 2015 #19
Prosecuting the Bush Crime Syndicate? 99th_Monkey Mar 2015 #21
I think I saw that marym625 Mar 2015 #24
That is exactly right, what it will take 99th_Monkey Mar 2015 #49
I can't watch it on my phone marym625 Mar 2015 #51
. 99th_Monkey Mar 2015 #53
I assume that means I got the name right? marym625 Mar 2015 #55
Yes, "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" is the name of the movie 99th_Monkey Mar 2015 #72
Which is awesome in its own right! marym625 Mar 2015 #73
A family in the city I live had three sons in that war onecaliberal Mar 2015 #25
How awful marym625 Mar 2015 #31
I agree completely. onecaliberal Mar 2015 #34
The losses also continue from one generation to another pinboy3niner Mar 2015 #44
. marym625 Mar 2015 #67
Those two death listings are powerful pinboy3niner Mar 2015 #76
I'm so sorry. marym625 Mar 2015 #77
I knew only one Joe Rufty pinboy3niner Mar 2015 #96
I don't know what to say marym625 Mar 2015 #100
But the politicians who led us into that murderous mischief have been rewarded handsomely MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #29
How? How do we stop it? marym625 Mar 2015 #33
Don't reward people who voted for this horror with a Presidential nomination. Maedhros Mar 2015 #50
I am doing my absolute best to make that happen. marym625 Mar 2015 #52
There is one way but talking about it is, last I knew, illegal nationalize the fed Mar 2015 #87
awesome! marym625 Mar 2015 #89
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #136
I so wish it would happen marym625 Mar 2015 #139
Yes, we have. madfloridian Mar 2015 #46
I'm sorry marym625 Mar 2015 #48
The Bush family is bush league compared to other genocidal slaughters that virgogal Mar 2015 #58
Yeah, it wasn't Rwanda marym625 Mar 2015 #60
Over one million dead, and that's just Iraqis, torture, permanent detentions with no charges sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #131
It did not stop after Bush. 840high Mar 2015 #61
I know marym625 Mar 2015 #62
Sad. 840high Mar 2015 #65
Very. marym625 Mar 2015 #66
Kick and R. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #70
Thanks. I'm didn't really expect anything new marym625 Mar 2015 #71
so very tired. nothing but war, every year, low intensity war that just goes on forever. ND-Dem Mar 2015 #108
Well said marym625 Mar 2015 #110
Thats because they pretty much have been cstanleytech Mar 2015 #117
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #129
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #135
Well said marym625 Mar 2015 #138

marym625

(17,997 posts)
2. The war on ISIS
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:10 PM
Mar 2015

Last edited Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:15 PM - Edit history (1)

The continuing war on "terror." Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia and anywhere else the US decides to kill with drones. The war on people of color. The war on women. The war on the poor and middle class.

It's all related. It's all about the oligarchs.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
6. Seems outrageous...
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:13 PM
Mar 2015

So when did the word "oligarch" become the new catchphrase on DU? Between you and Rhett I've seen it about 20 times today.

Define the term for me... Yes I can google it but I want to know what the DU definition is?

Thanks.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
8. The DU definition?
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:18 PM
Mar 2015

I can't speak for rhett, but I use it to mean exactly what it means. A ruler in the oligarchy.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
10. Worth a read, but you'll need $30.00 to access it. Damn those Princeton Oligarchs...
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:25 PM
Mar 2015

There is actually some data/research on this...

Each of four theoretical traditions in the study of American politics—which can be characterized as theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy, Economic-Elite Domination, and two types of interest-group pluralism, Majoritarian Pluralism and Biased Pluralism—offers different predictions about which sets of actors have how much influence over public policy: average citizens; economic elites; and organized interest groups, mass-based or business-oriented.

A great deal of empirical research speaks to the policy influence of one or another set of actors, but until recently it has not been possible to test these contrasting theoretical predictions against each other within a single statistical model. We report on an effort to do so, using a unique data set that includes measures of the key variables for 1,779 policy issues.

Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.


Source.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
14. $30 for what?
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:36 PM
Mar 2015

Last edited Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:27 PM - Edit history (1)

There is nothing wrong with the word "oligarchs" either at all or in the way I used it.

I read your post incorrectly on the $30. Not sure why you feel the need respond with such sarcasm. As I said above, and what your abstract states, is one in the same.

Here's an article about the study the two professors did that is referenced in your abstract

http://m.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
85. Well, I'm not trying to diminish your power, or Rhett's for that matter, but I don't think YOU made
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:59 PM
Mar 2015

it up.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
102. It's my fault. You are so astute to catch me in the error. I actually meant Plutocratic-Oligarchs.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:40 AM
Mar 2015

I get lazy and shorten it, but I think most understand what is meant.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
104. I know what you meant.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:55 AM
Mar 2015

For me, I didn't shorten it. Absolutely nothing wrong with the word or how I used it. Unless, well, maybe our friend wants to correct a few dictionaries, including Oxford.

Hi, doll! how are you?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
91. Definitely
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:05 AM
Mar 2015

'Dramatic' is a good word to define the sudden emergence of this 'all powerful' group that suddenly requires WE go BACK to Iraq and start all over again.

Well, if you watch and believe anything you see on the Corporate Media I suppose.

Where did this all powerful group come from all of a sudden?

Were we unaware with all of our 'Intel' that there was this group taking over huge areas of the ME for years?

Were we looking the other way?

Who ARE these all powerful people who came out of nowhere AFTER the War in Iraq supposedly ended?

And who are now the reason to start it up all over again?

Perhaps YOU can explain how the US failed to notice them until a couple of months ago?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
103. I'm seeing projection there. It's very clear where sabrina stands what isn't clear is
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:48 AM
Mar 2015

where you stand. Seems you are here to monitor our word use. I will guess that you aren't progressive. Neocon? Third Way? Help me out. Are you here to argue a particular point of view or what?

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
127. And who publically exposed their own demon-like behavior in exactly the precise manner which would
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:46 PM
Mar 2015

be required to enrage the public, and unite world opinion against themselves, thereby creating a virtual guarantee that a shitstorm of bombs would rain down on their own heads.

These guys are the neocons' wet dream.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
36. Well, I agree with that. So does Obama.
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:00 PM
Mar 2015

But now what? We can't exactly pretend they don't exist. Bush created that mess, but we can't just walk away from it now. That would be incredibly irresponsible, IMO. OTOH< I think we need to be more of a supporting force, rather than the front line fighters.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
40. How about we stop giving them weapons
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:07 PM
Mar 2015

The $500 Billion dollars worth of weaponry that was reported "missing" or "misplaced" this week, what do you wanna bet it went straight to ISIS? The MIC needs another war. What better way than to build a bigger boogieman? If they can't have Iran, then ISIS will do.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
144. Million, billion, pallets of cash...who cares?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:51 PM
Mar 2015

That article is just what they are admitting to. How much money and weapons has gone missing? And it's funny how it just ends up in the wrong place. Oops!

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
143. Stop killing them and their friends and families,
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:50 PM
Mar 2015

stop giving them weapons,
Stay the fuck OUT of their business.

Our military "kills people and breaks things".
That is not the way to "help" a country.
How many time do we have to prove that before you see it?

We have children going to bed hungry, homelessness, wage & disparity CRISIS (and much more) right here at home. We can save the rest of the World AFTER we save ourselves.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
54. No, it didnt create them. The war though did create enough destabilization in the area
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 10:00 PM
Mar 2015

to actually become a threat.
We even have similar types here in the US, in fact one of them has managed to gain enough power to seize control over the House and the Senate.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
27. Really? You think they came out like they
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:53 PM
Mar 2015

Have because they ruled themselves just as they wanted? What do you think caused them to exist?

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
38. I think Dubya created the conditions for them to arise.
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:02 PM
Mar 2015

But they exist. Dubya created that mess. But now what? Just say "my bad" and walk away?

marym625

(17,997 posts)
39. Maybe, just maybe
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:07 PM
Mar 2015

If we showed the world we knew we fucked up, that we punished those responsible, and let the middle east take care of the middle east instead of going in again, we might see fewer people joining ISIS

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
57. I wish that was the case but I really doubt it would much if any impact on
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 10:13 PM
Mar 2015

their ability to recruit people because the fact is there will always be ignorant people who will join such groups that want to kill people and preach hate be it ISIS, the Taliban or the Republican/Tea Party here in the US.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
59. I have no dreams of it ending anything
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 10:21 PM
Mar 2015

Just that it wouldn't be as easy. If the Germans had prosecuted their own, I think there would have been an easier, shorter healing.

Just my opinion. But we'll never know. And that sucks.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
74. No we wont and no they probably wont be but even if it did happen the leadership for ISIS
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:30 PM
Mar 2015

would probably continue with their program of terror until they are either killed or they get their own little paradise for them to rule as they see fit which based on what we have seen them do so far I would opinion as being a bad thing.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
75. I think if we leave it to the area that it's attacking
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:33 PM
Mar 2015

To police and not us, again, ISIS would die out.

But, again, we'll never know.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
84. And have a repeat of Europe after WWI which led to millions dying before and during WWII?
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:58 PM
Mar 2015

Because thats what would happen here I am willing to bet.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
86. I totally disagree
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:02 AM
Mar 2015

Last edited Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:18 AM - Edit history (1)

And we could always step in if it actually started getting that bad.

We had no problem leaving the people in Rwanda to die. Letting all the girls stolen and now being used as suicide bombers and the others killed and raped by Boko Haram go without help. And so many other times when our interests are not in danger

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
94. Getting that bad? Just how much badder would it have to be before you would agree to get
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:10 AM
Mar 2015

involved? Few thousand baked roasty toasty in a nice oven? Few million? How about a few miles of heads on a pike??

marym625

(17,997 posts)
98. seriously?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:26 AM
Mar 2015

And who is supposed to stop us? How many do you think it's OK to burn alive with white phosphorus? Kill innocent people with drones? Evidently, we're allowed more than others.

What about the girls taken by Boko Haram? How many blow themselves and others up before we step in because, evidently, that's OK.

I am not saying ISIS isn't wreaking havoc. But I also would not put them on the same level as Hitler or Hideki Tojo. Not even close. And I don't know how much I believe that is in the press right now. Especially when there were stories that have already been debunked.

We are not the world police. We also only act when our interests are in jeopardy. When we act because it's the right thing to do for human beings, and we act equally for all, and we stop committing war crimes, and we stop usurping governments to suit our needs, I will agree we should step in immediately. Until then, we need to allow the people in the region do their best. When and if it gets to a point that they actually need our help, unlike the what we did to help create ISIS, we should stay out of it

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
105. I didnt say they were "at" that level rather I was pointing out that they could get to it if we did
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:20 AM
Mar 2015

nothing like we did nothing before when it did raise to that level and it ended up costing the world dearly because of our choice to ignore it because it wasnt our problem.
And no we arent the world police but we are part of this world.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
106. We are part of the world when it comes to those poor girls
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:31 AM
Mar 2015

Being used as suicide bombers too.

There's a big difference now. We are aware and we wouldn't make that mistake again.

But we have to stop being the middle east police. We only make things worse and many people suffer because of it.


Please see posts 44 and 96 on this thread. Maybe it's time we play it safe for America before we start jumping in and killing Americans and others.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
109. Of course we cant be the police but we can help the locals find solutions to the problem of dealing
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:04 AM
Mar 2015

with them.
Some of that might be simple as basic training for their police on handling a crime scene other help might be say helping to build a school, there is alot of help we can provide that doesnt involve a drone attack and all of it can lead to stopping ISIS in time.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
111. I agree
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:07 AM
Mar 2015

And I don't have a problem with that kind of help, if it's requested. But nothing at all to do with war. Not us.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
114. I cant agree there because there might come a time when such a thing is needed but it
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:17 AM
Mar 2015

should be used only for a limited amount of time and only in the most dire of circumstances when there is nothing else that can be done by the local governments at all.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
121. If we are responsible for the rise of ISIS...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:14 AM
Mar 2015

how can we, in good conscience, simply walk away.

It's like starting a fire in someone's else and just leaving them to deal with it.

We have an ethical obligation to do something here, IMO.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
124. I, obviously, disagree.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:02 AM
Mar 2015

I think we will cause more harm than good.

We can help in other ways than waging war. Post 109 talked about other ways to help.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
137. I don;t see how any of those things would help right now.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:09 PM
Mar 2015

Obviously, I agree that humanitarian aid is important in times of peace, but I training police to handle crime scenes will NOT stop ISIS.

But there we go. We are not likely to agree on this subject.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
120. Yeah, unfortunately, they won't. But...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:12 AM
Mar 2015

the idea that doing so would stop all the bad people in the world from doing bad things is naive. It's a lovely thought, but not very realistic, I'm afraid.

And frankly, that sense of justice might be worth the wave of political instability it could unleash.

I'm with you in my heart, but not in my head.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
123. Never thought or said it would stop all the bad people.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:42 AM
Mar 2015

But it could change some of the hatred toward us

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
82. What and WHO are 'ISIS"?? I thought OUR enemy was Al Queda? Can you explain why
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:55 PM
Mar 2015

we never heard of this group until they had taken over large regions of the ME, or so we are told. Please give us a definition of who these people are, and where were they BEFORE we illegally invaded Iraq?

Thank you!

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
90. Wiki is your friend
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:05 AM
Mar 2015
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

As for them being enemies..............imo they should be the enemies of anyone who doesnt think its ok to sit back and let people be beheaded or burned alive.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
95. So you can't explain how an all powerful group of people who managed to control the oil revenues
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:12 AM
Mar 2015

to the point that they are capable of taking over large portions of the ME, passed unnoticed by the US who declared an end to the Iraq War, are now the REASON WHY WE NEED TO START THAT ILL FATED WAR ALL OVER AGAIN??

I didn't think so. Where WERE they one year ago before the Corporate Media started showing pretty sophisticated videos of what looked like characters from a Hollywood set, complete with expensive outfits, masks (why the masks btw?), with a scare 'terrorist' look, right after the funding for the worst and most failed and illegal war finally ended?

And WHY would these powerful people kill JOURNALISTS rather than, let's say, CONTRACTORS?

Terrorists generally USE journalists to 'get their side out'. I find it odd that almost ALL of their victims are journalists who were more likely to report the FACTS about what is going on over there?

A lot of people are wondering about this. So I don't blame you for not wanting to take it on.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
97. I simply linked you an article about them, you wanted to know who they were after all though
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:16 AM
Mar 2015

I would think the whole cutting off of heads and the burning people alive would have told you enough but then some people are never satisfied it would seem.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
99. Why journalists, and not Mercenaries? Seems like an odd choice for a group who are our 'enemies'.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:27 AM
Mar 2015

As for the beheadings, you must not have been around during the Nick Berg case.

Do you feel the same way about the slaughter of innocent children with White Phospherous eg? Ever seen the bodies of those innocents?

War is evil. Evil things happen once war begins. Rapes, torture, murder, beheadings and much, much worse. Those who are unfortunate enough to witness the horrors of war don't really differentiate between one way of murdering people or another.

Yes, to an American audience using one method of killing CAN rile them enough, or so it is thought, enough to start demanding JUSTICE, AGAIN. But to veterans of War, it's just one more atrocious, inhumane act CAUSED by those who started the whole horror to begin with.

Forgive me if I don't think that those who started this disaster are the ones to go BACK to try to 'fix it'.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
107. Yes I am well aware of Berg and what happened to him and later on what happened to some of the
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:54 AM
Mar 2015

ones involved in his death.

Pictures? Yup seen plenty of them also plenty of the ovens from the concentration camps and the pits, have you?

As for this current problem with ISIS I am just not sure if I can be like you and tell the locals "fuck you" since our fuck up was what pried opened the door for ISIS to come in though I do agree with you that sending in a large part of our military isnt the answer.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
133. Explain you 'be like and tell the locals 'fuck you' applies to ME? I OPPOSED the
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:16 PM
Mar 2015

illegal Iraq Invasion based on the fact that it was all a lie, AND that what has since happened to that and other surrounding countries WOULD be the result of such a criminal enterprise.

You must not have been around when those of us who vehemently opposed this massive crime predicted what is happening now. Not that it took a lot of ingenuity to do so, the guilty parties were not shy about stating what their real goals actually WERE.

Michael Ledeen eg, promised to turn the entire ME into a glass parking lot and when asked 'when' his now infamous response was 'faster please'. Well it has taken a bit longer than the 'months, weeks maybe' predicted by Rummy, but then that WAS the goal, forever war in the ME.

I guess they couldn't keep using Al Queda as support for what appeared to be a failed operation after more than a decade, began to drop.

But now we have a new 'enemy'.

I remember being attacked for opposing the original invasion by right wing Bush supporters with the same personal attacks 'so you don't care about the Iraqi people, you are willing to allow Al Queda to brutalize them etc etc.

If the anti-Iraq Invasion sentiment had prevailed, there would be no ISIS because Hussein, bad as he was, kept these elements under control.

Breaking down Iraq's infrastructure paved the way for forever war.

So now, the thinking is, 'sorry we failed Iraq to the point where one more than 4 million of their citizens are STILL in refugee camps in Jordan and Syria, and killed one million of them and turned their country into Mad Max etc.

AND made it possible for ISIS to emerge as a supposedly more powerful group than any seen over there in living memory, fully armed, capable of stealing oil revenues etc.

But hey, TRUST US! We will take care of THIS GROUP now, doing exactly what we did before.

No, I am not the one saying 'fuck you' to the locals. I am one of those who tried desperately to prevent what is happening to the locals by keeping our WMDS out of the ME.

I would say that those supporting ANOTHER round of US intervention are the ones saying 'fuck the locals'. Even more so now that we have seen all those predictions we made a decade ago, come true.

Seems to me the Kurds and other ME armies are far more capable of stopping ISIS than the Western powers who helped create them.

This feels like Deja Vu. Same 'we have to save them' only now we have recent history to argue against the West saving ANYTHING or ANYONE in that region of the world.

So go ahead and wish another decade of Western intervention on those unfortunate people.

I'm for allowing them to take care of their own business which they appear capable of doing without more failure from the West.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
134. Ever heard of two wrongs dont make a right? Thats why.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:34 PM
Mar 2015

And yes I opposed the invasion as well but I dont think its right to just throw those people in the region under a bus because some douchebags (Bush and those in his administration) fucked their country over.
I'm not advocating for a full scale assault though or a "surge" because that probably would be futile though we might have to provide some military assistance if the locals need it but such assistance needs to be rare.
Our main focus though should be in bringing some of their people over here for training for their civilian and military forces plus I would suggest helping them setup a good school system because if they can get a decently educated base along with a decent police and military it might give them an edge in the long run against ISIS.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
141. I am opposed to failure being repeated. We are probably the LAST country that can help them
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:35 PM
Mar 2015

at this point.

We sure didn't help them over the course of a decade of claiming to be doing so.

The ONLY reason, as was true the last time, that there is even talk of a return to Iraq is MONEY for Defense Contractors.

The US doesn't care one bit about the people of the ME. Our FPs are racist.

'Treat the Iraqis like Dogs' Gen. Miller to US Troops.

And we did.

The Malikki Govt we created is as bad as if not worse, than the previous one we first supported for decades, and then toppled.

The US is not interested in 'helping' anyone over their other than War Profiteers, including the massively profitable Arms Dealing Business.

Anyone who was here a decade ago sees nothing different at all about these appeals to 'compassion for people' when compassion is not a human quality possessed by the warmongers who started all this, knows that any attempt to start funding further 'help' for the people of that region, is as false now as it was then.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
130. Hint : Who killed two Reuters journalists in 2003 when they fired on the Palistine Hotel which the
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:55 PM
Mar 2015

U.S. knew was favored by journalists?

marym625

(17,997 posts)
5. The anger and pain I feel is just as raw
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:13 PM
Mar 2015

As when it started. Same here, my cousin will never be the same. So many won't be.

Why do they get away with it? And now we're killing people with drones. Indiscriminately.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
4. My friend's brother was killed in Iraq by a fellow soldier.
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:11 PM
Mar 2015
Army Maj. Matthew P. Houseal

While I didn't know Maj. Houseal, I went to high school with one of his younger siblings.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and all their enablers and liars should be in prison, along with these killers. The Bush cabal lied America into an illegal, immoral, unnecessary and disastrous war.

My friend's family will never be the same -- nor will those who know them.

And our world also will be the poorer for Bush Jr.'s war for decades to come.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
7. I'm so sorry for your friend's loss.
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:15 PM
Mar 2015

For you. For his family and friends.

How will the world ever forgive us if we just let this go?

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
18. R.I.P. Major Houseal
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:41 PM
Mar 2015

I remember news of another fratricide incident in Kuwait. That one involved the same Army battalion in which I had served in Vietnam, the war that gave birth to the term, 'fragging.' Appropriately, DoD and its service branches include these non-battle deaths in their war casualty database.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
9. The US was founded on genocide and slavery
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:23 PM
Mar 2015

and quickly went downhill from there.


"Why aren't these warmongering, lowlife, lying piece of shit bastards not even being tried?"

Because political war criminals in the most powerful country in the world can never be tried.

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
11. Well, I'd like to think it went a little bit uphill (npi) at Little Round Top
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:29 PM
Mar 2015

on July 3, 1863. But, yeah, I pretty much take your point.

Although I am prone to despair, I take solace that international law finally caught up with Milosevic and Karadzic. The wheels of justice grind exceedingly fine . . . and slow.

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
20. Sorry, I often assume more than I should. Little Round Top was one of the
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:41 PM
Mar 2015

two 'high points' -- the other being Cemetery Ridge -- at Gettysburg that Union soldiers under General Meade occupied and held against ferocious Confederate onslaughts on Day 2 of the Battle of Gettysburg. The battle was won for the Union on the 2nd Day, Pickett's eponymous charge on the 3rd day merely the coda to a resounding defeat for the Confederacy (and the last time any serious Confederate invasion of the North occurred).

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
30. thanks. you saved me a google search
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:55 PM
Mar 2015

I was in a discussion one time with a Civil War re-enactor for the Confederate side. He talked about pride of heritage, pride of history.

I asked was he proud that that heritage was founded on chattel slavery? That discouraged further conversation about pride and heritage.

I also made a comment in a local letter to the editor expressing my opinion that many people in the US had obviously never gotten over their Civil War. I am not sure if the comment or my obviously French name was responsible for the response, but the response was quite heated.

I am a dual national, Canada/US, moving here as a teen, so I realize that my experience and history are different from many, but if the US cannot get past the civil war I do not see how the country will not continue to have the political warfare that goes on.

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
37. The South spent an entire century after 1865 pissing and moaning about
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:02 PM
Mar 2015

its "Lost Cause" and romanticizing ante-bellum life in the South. I think most have gotten over the Civil War now; the battles you see today are rear-guard skirmishes over what the legacy of the 1960s is to be and to mean. I mean the 60s saw the partial liberation of entire swaths of formerly second-class citizens and the right-wing and the older generation in the South have not completely gotten over that little development yet.

I meant only to tweak your "quickly went downhill" verbiage with a little shout-out to the brave Union boys who saved the day for the Union at Little Round Top. Whether their sacrifices will in the long run be justified, of course, remains to be seen.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
42. "quickly went downhill"
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:16 PM
Mar 2015

was sarcasm on my part. I am not one to classify "all Americans" or "all American actions" as anything. The US has done much good in its history, but the memory of good actions can be wiped out by subsequent bad actions. And in my opinion, many US citizens do not realize that the "history" that they often read is sanitized to present an image consistent with self-image rather than reality.

I agree with your 1960's analogy. We moved here in 1965 and my first memories were of the Civil Rights struggle. When you wrote:

"I mean the 60s saw the partial liberation of entire swaths of formerly second-class citizens and the right-wing and the older generation in the South have not completely gotten over that little development yet."

a very nice summation of 50 years of political history. Congratulations

marym625

(17,997 posts)
35. Neither
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:59 PM
Mar 2015

That they can't be punished. I know they won't be. I know the arguments against it. I just disagree. We could and we should.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
41. I agree, if that makes sense
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:09 PM
Mar 2015

I just feel that the present system is so rigged for the 1% that absent any significant change by the silent majority nothing will be done. Remember that President Obama ruled out any prosecution of the Bush Administration. Perhaps he realized that he would have no support for any action.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
45. on the contrary
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:26 PM
Mar 2015

He was covering his own ass. There are a great many things that the President has done that are good. But there are some he hasn't.

I agree that the cards are stacked against us. Especially now. Probably more now than ever before in our history. But damn, we cannot let it go on. We just can't.

I don't know what to do. I am not that wise. But something must be done

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
112. I think it was more that he had to weigh the benefits of a conviction vs the potential dmg it could
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:12 AM
Mar 2015

cause to the american people and thats why he didnt press for an investigation, it was a mistake though on his part imo because we all saw how thankful the republicans were to him for extending that olive branch.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
113. Sorry, we disagree on the why
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:17 AM
Mar 2015

Especially since he ran on prosecuting as one the things he would do.

Doesn't really matter. They won't be prosecuted and the world lost. Including the American people

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
116. Are you referring to this ?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:31 AM
Mar 2015
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Barack_on_torture.html


What I would want to do is to have my Justice Department and my Attorney General immediately review the information that's already there and to find out are there inquiries that need to be pursued. I can't prejudge that because we don't have access to all the material right now. I think that you are right, if crimes have been committed, they should be investigated. You're also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve.

So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment -- I would want to find out directly from my Attorney General -- having pursued, having looked at what's out there right now -- are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it's important-- one of the things we've got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing betyween really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I've said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances. Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in coverups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it.


cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
122. Well you might want to find the others then as he didnt say he would prosecute in that one
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:15 AM
Mar 2015

or in other words he acted like what he is.....................a politician.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
125. He said he would investigate
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:04 AM
Mar 2015

And that if founded, would prosecute. Instead he gave them a complete pass.

It's wrong

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
126. Yes he said he would investigate but if you read the entire thing he said the rest of it
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:29 AM
Mar 2015

in such a way that it left him an out when it came to prosecution.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
16. Unfortunately Mary...
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:37 PM
Mar 2015

... my very good friend, those that could have and should have saw to it that those War Criminals were brought to justice, either thru incompetence or design, instead let them not just walk free, but left them with a multitude of national venues to try and sell us their evil shit again. And that, as much as the evil they did, is unforgivable.

Is anyone truly surprised that these traitors continue to act as they do?

marym625

(17,997 posts)
19. In a way, I am.
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:41 PM
Mar 2015

That just brought me to tears.

I know. I get it. I understand. It doesn't stop me from being angry. From being just so sad. And mostly, just so very disappointed in the country that we want to believe in vs the country we actually have.

Thank you, my friend.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
21. Prosecuting the Bush Crime Syndicate?
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:44 PM
Mar 2015

The last Prez serious about doing that was JFK, and Poppy Bush put
an end to that; then Brother Bobby had to go too, as he was headed
for the WH.

The Zapruder film, RFK, the Gary Webb story, et. al. are very convincing
illustrations of how messing with the Dark Side is an increasingly risky business.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
24. I think I saw that
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:50 PM
Mar 2015

But I am going to try to find it again.

Bobby was a bigger threat than his brother.

Why don't we storm the castle, so to speak. This is what is going to cause the end of our country as we have known it. Even with all the failings, we have been able to keep things in check. Now, they have autonomy

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
49. That is exactly right, what it will take
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:50 PM
Mar 2015

It's what it took in our "new mortal enemy" Venezuela, to reverse the CIA inspired
military over-throw of Hugo Chavez. The people by the 100s of thousands surrounded
the Presidential Palace in non-violent defiance of the coup, ultimately the Palace Guard
troops turned their guns away from Chavez and arrested the coup instigators.

It's all here in an excellent on-the-scene award winning documentary of the entire
failed coup attempt. It's by some random Dutch film-makers who were per chance
on the scene already when it started unfolding and were allowed to keep their cameras
rolling from start to finish. An amazing film if you haven't seen it.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
51. I can't watch it on my phone
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:55 PM
Mar 2015

The name of it is the same as the song? The revolution will not be televised?

Thank you. I believe that is what will have to happen. And, if it is, I hope it happens as peacefully.

Thank you!

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
72. Yes, "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" is the name of the movie
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:20 PM
Mar 2015

but it helps when googling it to add "Chavez" after the name of the movie, because
otherwise you get scads of links to the popular 1970 Gil Scott-Heron song by that name.

onecaliberal

(32,478 posts)
25. A family in the city I live had three sons in that war
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:51 PM
Mar 2015

Two of them were killed two years apart. The Hubbard family is destroyed forever.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
31. How awful
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:55 PM
Mar 2015

I'm so sorry.

And the people responsible for their unnecessary deaths should be punished. And I don't mean the Iraq people

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
44. The losses also continue from one generation to another
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:22 PM
Mar 2015

It wasn't until many years after the war that I located and talked to the family of a friend who was KIA in Vietnam and learned he was named after an uncle who was KIA at Anzio in WWII.

Joe Hearne Rufty, Salisbury, NC
July 21, 1917 - June 2, 1944
KIA Anzio Beach, Italy


Joe Hearne Rufty, Salisbury, NC
February 23, 1945 - January 29, 1970
KIA Thua Thien Province, I Corps, South Vietnam
Panel 14W, Line 80

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
76. Those two death listings are powerful
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:39 PM
Mar 2015

That information hit me pretty hard when I discovered it. The two eptaphs tell a tragic story.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
96. I knew only one Joe Rufty
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:14 AM
Mar 2015

We were together on a hill out in the jungle on Christmas Day, 1969.

I remember being at a party in Westwood, CA after the war and hearing the sound of a Laugh Box, and discovering tears pouring down my face and being so shocked and scared because I didn't know why.

It was only when I snuck into the bathroom to wash my face that it came back. Joe, on Christmas day on a jungle hill out toward the A Shau, getting a Christmas present from home with chocolate chip cookies, a bottle of whiskey...and a Laugh Box. Sitting around playing poker in a poncho hooch on that Christmas day, and every once in a while somebody hitting the button on the Laugh Box and all of us cracking up.

And, a month later, Joe going down with a sucking chest wound from machine gun fire and my men volunteering unanimously to rappel from choppers into the firefight to try to save Joe. They wouldn't let us do it because we'd lose too many that way, and it wouldn't have helped, anyway. Joe died either on the jungle penetrator as they winched him up to the Medevac chopper or on the floor of the chopper. I'll never forget those good, good men who were willing to lay their lives on the line against very steep odds to try to save a wounded officer..

Joe was just one guy, one loss. How many other Joes died in all of the wars on all of the sides?

I can't forget the words of a former North Vietnamese Army soldier in his book about having to search, after the war, for the remains of his fallen comrades. He wrote about searching in "the "screaming jungle" ...

marym625

(17,997 posts)
100. I don't know what to say
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:30 AM
Mar 2015

I had to acknowledge your heart breaking, well written post.

I wish I could end the wars. I wish I could hug you. I'm so very sorry

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
29. But the politicians who led us into that murderous mischief have been rewarded handsomely
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 08:54 PM
Mar 2015

Blows. My. Mind.

This. Must. Stop.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
50. Don't reward people who voted for this horror with a Presidential nomination.
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:52 PM
Mar 2015

That would be a start.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
52. I am doing my absolute best to make that happen.
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:58 PM
Mar 2015

I am 100% with you.

There is no doubt in my mind that Hillary knew all this before she voted to go to war. I don't know how I can possibly prove it, but I am trying. Part of why I have been going through old stuff all day. This article made me sure of it. It took Greg Palast over a decade to prove it. I'm sure somewhere her name is on it too.

Oops. Wrong thread. Thought I was on my post Blood For No Oil.

nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
87. There is one way but talking about it is, last I knew, illegal
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:03 AM
Mar 2015

one thing we can all do legally is spread the word that the Oil Age is over, thanks to the Japanese. Really.

The faster we all switch to cars that don't need gas/oil the faster oil is removed from any argument that uses "US Interests" in the Middle East. There would be no war for oil if oil wasn't needed.

Toyota's new gasoline free car goes on sale later this year and Honda will have one on the market next year.



No oil, no gas, no fuel injectors, no radiator, no tune ups, no smog, no smog tests.

Green Fuel produced in the US for the US.


The US could have led this revolution but sadly, Obama cut the funding for this important research and favored fracking.

Response to marym625 (Reply #33)

marym625

(17,997 posts)
48. I'm sorry
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 09:36 PM
Mar 2015

I just went back through so much stuff from 2000 forward, and therefore, even back decades, and the anger became as fresh as it was when this first started.

What really kills me is that there is no way that many that voted for that horrific war didn't know the reality of why we went in. And here they are, asking for us to put them in charge.

 

virgogal

(10,178 posts)
58. The Bush family is bush league compared to other genocidal slaughters that
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 10:20 PM
Mar 2015

have taken place in the last 75 years.

They made me angrier and I've been around for all of them.

Horrors.



marym625

(17,997 posts)
60. Yeah, it wasn't Rwanda
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 10:28 PM
Mar 2015

Or...

I understand. Because they basically took our country and made it a murderous imperial horror. I know we are not innocents before them. But this is so blatant and so horrific.

I think it makes me feel guiltier than what Reagan, Johnson, etc did.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
131. Over one million dead, and that's just Iraqis, torture, permanent detentions with no charges
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:59 PM
Mar 2015

filed etc etc. Pretty genocidal imo, at least it was considered to be during the Bush era when we had hopes that the liars and deceivers who started it all would be brought to justice some day.

Now, we have to face the awful realization that what we viewed as crimes against humanity, appears to be US policy.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
71. Thanks. I'm didn't really expect anything new
Sun Mar 22, 2015, 11:06 PM
Mar 2015

From this post. But I didn't expect disagreement and challenge either. So thank you

 

ND-Dem

(4,571 posts)
108. so very tired. nothing but war, every year, low intensity war that just goes on forever.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:58 AM
Mar 2015

like 1984.

Response to marym625 (Original post)

Response to marym625 (Original post)

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