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Wed Mar 11, 2015, 02:11 AM

 

Why this space is called "Underground"

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Violet_Crumble (a host of the General Discussion forum).

When the election of 2000 was stolen
and the establishment Dems looked
the other way, there arose from the ashes
this forum of like minded souls whom,
in pursuit of Truth, Justice, and the
American way, did gather to resist.

We were the Underground Democrats who
resisted the establishment that decided
that democracy, as we knew it, was dead.
They killed our democracy with stolen votes,
their corrupted SCOTUS, and a congress that shirked its duty.

Some few, to this day, hold to that resistance.

That resistance lives in the desire for more democracy;
not less democracy. Those here telling us we must
cotton to 'Dear Leaders' and the establishment are not
doing good for the 'More Democracy' idea.

They are, imo, just another brick in the wall
which the establishment spends its billions on
to keep the People from rising up and overcoming.

You can decide for yourself which force you wish to be aligned with for there are but two.

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 34 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why this space is called "Underground" (Original post)
RobertEarl Mar 2015 OP
leveymg Mar 2015 #1
RobertEarl Mar 2015 #2
leveymg Mar 2015 #4
billhicks76 Mar 2015 #21
JDPriestly Mar 2015 #12
zappaman Mar 2015 #3
Hekate Mar 2015 #14
chillfactor Mar 2015 #5
RobertEarl Mar 2015 #6
pbmus Mar 2015 #7
CJCRANE Mar 2015 #8
RobertEarl Mar 2015 #9
BainsBane Mar 2015 #10
RobertEarl Mar 2015 #11
Hekate Mar 2015 #16
F4lconF16 Mar 2015 #22
Fumesucker Mar 2015 #30
JDPriestly Mar 2015 #13
JI7 Mar 2015 #15
Hekate Mar 2015 #17
JI7 Mar 2015 #18
anotojefiremnesuka Mar 2015 #20
JI7 Mar 2015 #23
anotojefiremnesuka Mar 2015 #24
JI7 Mar 2015 #25
dissentient Mar 2015 #19
LiberalElite Mar 2015 #29
Rhiannon12866 Mar 2015 #26
MrMickeysMom Mar 2015 #27
SidDithers Mar 2015 #28
msanthrope Mar 2015 #33
rogerashton Mar 2015 #31
RiverLover Mar 2015 #32
Violet_Crumble Mar 2015 #34

Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 02:26 AM

1. The term "Underground" will have to evolve if this place is to remain democratic

Otherwise, it just becomes another set of cheap seats in the Party cheering section and a focus group for the Line of the Day.

Democratic Underground means we can't be afraid to upset the Party regulars and must be willing to occasionally fight off the doctrine police.

I know where I stand. What about you, brothers and sisters? Which side are you on?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 02:37 AM

2. Very well said, leveymg

 

You are indeed a True Warrior for More Democracy!

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 02:56 AM

4. Thank you, Robert Earl.

For allowing us this wonderful democratic space!

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 04:51 AM

21. True Warrior

 

Glad to be associated with you, Truth Bearer. The fakes and snakes can disappear.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:42 AM

12. Thank you.

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 02:44 AM

3. Thank you for starting this website!

I had no idea how you came up with the name until now!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #3)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:52 AM

14. I think the OP is not EarlG. EarlG is one of the 3 founders.

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:09 AM

5. mostly love it here...

but too many "Democrats" that post here have lost their way...and too many trolls go unchecked...

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:11 AM

6. DU's first year

 

I started reading DU about June of 2001. This is what I remember reading.

First of course was about the stolen election. Then there grew and grew a sense that we could become powerful and teach others. Through the summer we blasted bush/cheney, demanding impeachment, and then:

September 11.

All hell broke loose on DU, as you can imagine. The non-mainstream reports came flying out on DU, and told a story very much unlike that on the nightly news; bush knew.

Suddenly there was the Patriot Act, and we all felt threatened.

News about Anthrax became our next concern.

Then came the invasion of Afghanistan.

What is happening these days pales in comparison to the battles we waged on DU in those days just to hold on to our sanity as the bush regime plowed ahead.

Al Gore later said something like this: We had to off load one disaster just to make room for each new disaster coming our way.

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:13 AM

7. Today my biggest concern is in the number two

The right and the left ,there again is two ,I call bullshit ,because two is dysfunctional ,it sometimes takes more ,

And the force will always rest in the people ...

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:22 AM

8. Going Underground...

The Jam Live - Going Underground



Some people might say my life is in a rut,
But I'm quite happy with what I got
People might say that I should strive for more,
But I'm so happy I can't see the point.
Somethings happening here today
A show of strength with your boy's brigade and,
I'm so happy and you're so kind
You want more money - of course I don't mind
To buy nuclear textbooks for atomic crimes
And the public gets what the public wants
But I want nothing this society's got -
I'm going underground, (going underground)
Well the brass bands play and feet start to pound
Going underground, (going underground)
Well let the boys all sing and the boys all shout for tomorrow
Some people might get some pleasure out of hate
Me, I've enough already on my plate
People might need some tension to relax
Me, I'm too busy dodging between the flak
What you see is what you get
You've made your bed, you better lie in it
You choose your leaders and place your trust
As their lies wash you down and their promises rust
You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns
And the public wants what the public gets
But I don't get what this society wants
I'm going underground, (going underground)
Well the brass bands play and feet start to pound
Going underground, (going underground)
Well let the boys all sing and the boys all shout for tomorrow
We talk and talk until my head explodes
I turn on the news and my body froze
The braying sheep on my TV screen
Make this boy shout, make this boy scream!
Going underground, I'm going underground!

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #8)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:28 AM

9. That nails it. Thanks CJ

 

I was younger then. My gawd 14 years younger!!

DU inspired me then to get up and fight. We almost won.....?

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:35 AM

10. Every single time I have tried to discuss sexism and gender inequality

I have been told that to do so is "divisive." EVERY TIME. I've been told I'm an unreasonable radical for caring about women's rights as I define them and not taking the upper-middle class white male's direction on what rights I am allowed to care about. African American members have been called divisive trolls for posting about racism, for suggesting that people here might care about their life experiences. Just today I served on a jury where someone lit into a member for posting about racism, when he felt he should not have to be exposed to such trivial concerns. Now I read a post where you say it's us vs. them, the us being many of the same people who have told me and others to keep our mouths shut, not to pester our betters about issues that speak to the experiences of many women and people of color. Some of the those you proudly proclaim as the "underground" are people who have insulted LGBT members, who have faced discrimination and oppression their entire lives, as hypocrites and accused them of being aligned with the 1 percent and Goldman Sachs because they didn't share their assessment of a single individual. After years of being told I'm an unreasonable radical, suddenly I'm a collaborator with power, a whole new kind of other.

In both cases, I am excluded and reviled for the same reasons: I am not you, and my life has been nothing like yours and the others you so proudly proclaim as "the underground." What I am not is not someone who grew up middle-class and male, and therefore my experiences differ from many here. I care about issues that relate to my life experiences, and that makes me less, just as the subject position I occupy is defined as less in the social and class structure of this country. That is true for many of the people your post looks down upon. You see for us, elections matter. Our very civil rights, our economic livelihood, and for some their survival is effected by the outcome of elections. Yet none of that concerns you. You instead proclaim a superiority as an "underground" keyboard warrior, all over what appears to be opposition to the only presumptive candidate for the Democratic nomination. What you are proclaiming is a superiority tied at least in part to privilege of race, class, gender, and sexuality.

Deliberately seeking to exclude the majority of the electorate from your notion of underground, of who matters, is not revolutionary or even reformist. What it does is serve the interests of the powerful, of capital. The system in which we live is overpowering in its control. To resist it requires SOLIDARITY on issues, on coming together to take action on the role of money political system, to oppose capitalism, the very system that grants you privilege lacking in those you look down on. Yet your posts shows that what you care about is not challenging that system but instead targeting those who disagree with you. That, I assert, does the work of the very forces many here claim to oppose. Yet when they spend their energy attacking ordinary American voters rather than capital or the "corporatist state," it tells me that they, and you, aren't interested in changing anything. You instead proclaim yourselves superior to those who are born, live, and think differently. If i had money, didn't have a uterus, and if others here were white and straight, they could afford not to give a shit about elections. If we were privileged, elections wouldn't make that much difference to us and might even provide a nice cut in taxes. Like most Americans, we are not so fortunate.

You imagine yourself and those you think better than the rest of us to be among the underground because you post on a site that has that title in its name. My notion of underground or change doesn't revolve around an obsession with one member of the political elite or another. For me, social justice and human equality are what matter, and when people insist on ignoring and even silencing those issues and social problems in favor of mudslinging about individuals, I see a way of thinking bound by the power of capital. I see people who forsake activism that might actually change the relationship between capital and citizen and instead direct their energies toward targeting ordinary, working and disadvantaged Americans whose position in society is far more fragile. This conceptual underground you present looks to me a lot like a country club.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:42 AM

11. Oh geez

 

I don't complain about DU much. I could, but what good does it do?

DU and the people here did not invent racism and sexism and all that. The good members get educated and informed and then act. Others don't. DU is not going to change the world. Nice try, but it ain't going to happen.

And getting all personal with your post is rather, shall we say, ugly?

Thanks and have a nice day.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #11)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:56 AM

16. Therein lies part of our current problem. BB is right in this: the "underground" ...

...is bigger than any of us knows, and dialog is important.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 04:53 AM

22. Damn, BainsBane, I don't always agree with you on everything

But you can write like hell. This is one of my favorite posts I've seen from you. I know there's a lot of people that have already left, so thank you for sticking around despite having plenty of reasons not too. I learn every time I read your posts.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 07:09 AM

30. There isn't much social justice in a crab bucket

And we are headed rapidly toward a crab bucket society as the wealthy suck up all the resources and money and the rest of us are reduced to fighting over the crumbs falling from the tables of the wealthy and hauling any crab who starts to climb out of the bucket back down into the bottom with us.

Three trillion dollars would have allowed a lot of crabs to escape the crab bucket but instead it had to be flagrantly wasted on killing and maiming people on the other side of the planet, people who had done nothing to us. Where is the justice for those people?

In the end the "only presumptive candidate for the Democratic nomination" voted for and urged others to vote for trashing the most equal society in the Middle East and ended up triggering an avalanche of social injustice in Iraq and now we see that avalanche gathering speed and momentum throughout the entire Middle East.

Some of us have a thought for everyone on the planet and think even people outside this nation deserve their share of social justice also.



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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:43 AM

13. Thank you.

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:55 AM

15. this site was started and belongs to third wayers

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Response to JI7 (Reply #15)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:58 AM

17. Have you brought up this concern with the 3 fellows who actually founded it?

Perhaps they have a different POV.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 04:05 AM

18. no, this is based on what those who throw out "third wayers" would say

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Response to JI7 (Reply #15)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 04:47 AM

20. Wiki does not come out and say it but it does mention David Allens ties to third way/blue dog groups

 

If the wiki is incorrect the owners should fix it else people could get the impression that DU is really a front group for Third Way/Blue Dogs.


The website is owned by Democratic Underground, LLC (a limited liability company), and run by David Allen, who posts under the screen name "Skinner"[4] while on the boards and handles most of the issues relating to the forums. The other two administrators are Dave Allsopp, a co-founder, known as "EarlG" (of Washington, D.C.) and Brian Leitner, known as "elad" of Portland, Oregon. Allsopp and Leitner handle the articles and technical issues, respectively. Previously David Allen used to design websites for Blue Dogs/Third Way Democrats in Washington, D.C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Underground


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Response to anotojefiremnesuka (Reply #20)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 05:15 AM

23. so a forum full of attacks on third way would be a front for third way ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #23)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 05:26 AM

24. Easy way to keep tabs on your liberal enemies and easy way to make money off

 

them too.

DU provides zero insight in to their finances people can only guess as to what is really going on.

I am not accusing the owners of DU of anything, I can't because the information is not available.

Just saying Wiki says one thing and if it is false the DU owners should fix the page.




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Response to anotojefiremnesuka (Reply #24)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 05:55 AM

25. Do people think what they post on du is only seen by others who post ?

One doesn't have to join to read the forums

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 04:17 AM

19. I always thought the "underground" part meant the site had a subversive element to it

 

In other words - nonconformists, rebel, independent, etc. That was my impression from being a long time reader/lurker of Du.

I think that element has lessened in the past few years. Unfortunately. If the site wants to go totally mainstream, and be more of a site for party loyalists and yellow dog type Democrats, then they should probably re-name it to something like "Democratic conformists" or "Democratic party enthusiasts", or something along those lines. And also in the "About" section, change the language to say this site is officially welcoming to Democrats only, instead of "politically liberal", which could mean Greens, socialists, and other non-Democratic party affiliated progressives.

That said, I don't think the site would be nearly as popular then, just my opinion, but I think the site would take a nose dive in popularity. I think people in general like controversy, instead of just obedient cheer leading. Again, this is just my opinion.

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Response to dissentient (Reply #19)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 07:01 AM

29. I hereby rec this post nt

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 06:23 AM

26. Did you see this post with a link to DU.1??

It's from February of 2001. If you haven't seen it, you'll be interested. I wasn't here until 2003, but I was on DU.1.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026344966

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 06:39 AM

27. K&R for punching the buttons of the right people...

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 06:53 AM

28. ...

Member since: Wed Dec 14, 2011, 04:53 PM


Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #28)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 07:56 AM

33. Damn....you beat me to it! nt

 

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 07:22 AM

31. The Kraken awakes

I joined in 2002, but didn't participate for something more than a decade. Had to get some work done. Came back about a year ago.

Is it different? Yah, of course. Times are different. Totalitarian Republicanism is not in charge of the White House, the Bush dictatorship is past, the totalitarian Republicans cannot even get their own act together -- though the price our country pays for their toehold on power is still very high.

The fact that one of the founders did IT work for blue dog groups does not mean that he supported them politically, and if he did, people learn and change. I like to think I have.

Having returned, I value the openness of this site to a range of opinions from people who support small-d democracy, including those whose loyalty to the Democratic Party is strong. There is always a tension between the lesser evil and the greater good. If the price of that openness is frequent trolling and unpleasant language, so be it.

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 07:27 AM

32. Thank you for sharing this history, RobertEart. Really great to learn this.

Wish I'd known about DU then. I cried like a baby when Bush Jr became president.

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Response to RobertEarl (Original post)

Wed Mar 11, 2015, 08:06 AM

34. Locking...

Host consensus is this one's disruptive meta...

Threads complaining about Democratic Underground or its members; threads complaining about jury decisions, locked threads, suspensions, bannings, or the like; and threads intended to disrupt or negatively influence the normal workings of Democratic Underground and its community moderating system are not permitted.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025307978

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