Should every freshman who chants a racist slogan automatically be expelled from his college?

[immoderate]

And have his fraternity purged? Is the campus devoid of racism now?

Can a university really have a blind "zero tolerance" policy for speech that is protected? Does OU have some sort of diversity education? Apparently not.

I find myself in agreement with the Oklahoma NAACP President Anthony Douglas, who said on Alex Wagner's show that OU missed an opportunity to educate those students. If not a university, then where -- room 101? Until they see things our way? These are the people that we have to reach.

Do not play the "direct threat" card. It's dangerous to sample reality that way. Didn't some of the same people defend Charlie Hebdo? Is this video a "direct threat?" of "violence?" And it's against the US military under conflict. Treason?

For the record, I don't condone racism. Nor do I condone prosecution for 'thought crime.' How about let's fire some cops for shooting unarmed black men?

--imm

[geek tragedy]

1. I have no trouble with people who explicitly declare their intent

to discriminate on the base of race for housing, create a system of segregation, and suggest lynching black people being disallowed from intimidating minorities and harming their ability to access higher education.

There's no educating the willfully hateful, ignorant, and evil.

[Rex]

14. People seen to get 'rules' and 'free speech' mixed up a lot over this!

It is as if they never signed a contract or entered into a verbal agreement. There are crimes and there are infractions and both get broken when the rules get broken.

I don't see the confusion here.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Depending on the context of the chant..

If it done in the context of agreeing and promoting racism? Yeah...

[arcane1]

3. Wasn't it the whole frat, chanting that they'll never have black members?

[Adrahil]

7. Which is ironic since that very chapter HAS had at least one black member.

That says to me that this is a national phenomenon.

[immoderate]

13. Which goes back to my original question.

If it is a national phenomenon, should we expel any student that thinks racist thoughts? Zero tolerance?

--imm

[arcane1]

17. How did we go from chanting, to thinking thoughts?

[Cali_Democrat]

4. If you reference lynching.....then yes

Lynching is murder.

Kick 'em out.

[immoderate]

15. Referencing something is speech. Lynching is murder.

That's my point. We shouldn't confuse the two.

--imm

[Cali_Democrat]

18. I didn't confuse the two. nt

[randome]

5. If it's policy and made known to every student, then yes, kick 'em out.

And I don't think I'd have a problem kicking them out anyways. What else could a university do? Fine them? Discipline them? Then they could easily be the target of the same kind of discrimination they preached.

So maybe kicking them out would be best.

And what would your solution be?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Adrahil]

6. I will say this....

.... SAE national chose to disband the chapter. That is their CLEAR right.

Once they are no longer a frat, they have no standing to remain in an OU frathouse.

The protected speech issue is another thing. I do not know what the OU code of conduct says about such things.

[bigwillq]

8. Sticks and stones

If the chants are non-violent, I say no, but I guess it depends on the situation.

That being said, I have no issue with any institution expelling any member for any reason as long as said reasons are included in student handbook.

[bluestateguy]

9. I think you make a good point, but I disagree

nt

[cwydro]

10. "you can hang him from a tree."

Nuff said.

[PassingFair]

24. It was intimidating hate speech. Yes, they should be expelled.

If I were black, I would feel intimidated and unwelcome in my own school by their language.

Same thing goes for anti-women, pro-rape speech on campuses.

[LittleBlue]

11. If they're chanting about tying black people to a tree

hell yes. They've disgraced themselves and the entire university. In the Information Age, that stuff is never forgotten.

[Rex]

12. For the record, nobody said you were a racist so a disclaimer is unwarranted.

Let me ask you something, if you join a group and they have rules and in those rules are something to the effect of "you may not pick your nose, nosing picking in public will mean instant expulsion" and say you got caught red fingered picking your nose.

What happens? So does that mean every nose picker on campus that gets caught gets expelled? YES. If they signed or agreed to follow the RULES.

People are having such a hard time understanding the difference between rules and free speech! I'm surprised by this!

Have none of ya'll ever signed or agreed to a contract or agreement?

Seriously, strange stuff.

[immoderate]

16. Good point. I really don't know what he agreed to.

And it may be legal grounds for the university's action. Would you ever see this universally enforced?

--imm

[Rex]

20. If it is an established rule then yes on all campuses.

And of course I am just playing DA, because I have no way of knowing if they signed anything either. Just going from my own personal life, going to college or even when I was in the Army. Certain behavior or actions would lead to expulsion or in the case of the military any number of articles against me. USMJ is huge and very strict about certain issues.

Rules are rules. I know certain people are going to be going crazy over this (like my relatives that are all brain dead from Foxnews), because they feel it is unfair.

Welcome to the real world folks!

The magic pony ride is over!

Reality called and said there would be severe consequences.

[Number23]

19. They didn't "fail to educate" a damn thing

If more people dealt with racism this way -- IMMEDIATE action, not "arr, we're planning a three year investigation of the incident in question" -- and some pretty serious consequences there'd be a lot less of this shit still going on. Those kids got one HELL of an education and I'm as surprised as anyone that a school in Oklahoma dealt with this as quickly and decisively as they did.

Chanting a racist slogan is creating a racist, hostile environment for minorities as well for thinking/feeling non-minorities who have as much damn right to be there as the racists. In you did this at work, you'd lose your job. Why should this be any different? People sitting around waiting for old racists to "die" so that racism will end are blind to the fact that racism is as enduring as time. The only way to get rid of it is to fight it -- openly and loudly. And that's exactly what that school did.

And what the hell does this "How about let's fire some cops for shooting unarmed black men?" have to do with the rest of your OP?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

21. 'Free Speech' is 'free' from government action.

Any private university is certainly free to expel anyone chanting/singing hate speech. I don't know how it works with public universities.

[Android3.14]

22. Why would anyone think you condone racism?

It's obvious that, rather than condoning racism, you just think racist behavior is okay as long as we can teach the racist that his behavior is actually not okay.

After all, twenty-something racists just need a little understanding.

I mean, my gosh, why would anyone think you condone racism? It's simply outrageous.

Why, I bet you would approach bullying in the same reasonable fashion. Why should we punish bullies, when all they are doing is engaging in protected free speech activity? I mean, shouting homosexual epithets into the face of someone is fine, as long as we take the opportunity to sit the bully down (heck let's have him sit down with his victim and they'll become friends...ahhh. won't that be sweet?) and maybe he will finally understand that bullying is bad.

Mmmkay?

[immoderate]

29. I have confronted bullies -- and racists too. What's your point?

--imm

[99Forever]

23. Cuz...

... letting asshole bigots get away with it has worked SO WELL.

[AngryAmish]

25. There is nothing wrong with this expulsions

I am on record as being entirely comfortable having government officials decide which speech should be allowed.

[NaturalHigh]

26. I'm one of the biggest free speech advocates you'll find...

but this particular incident is a non-starter. The students signed a code of conduct agreement. In essence, they agreed they could be kicked out for this sort of stupidity.

[Lil Missy]

27. Being expelled from college IS the"diversity education".

Absolutely they should be expelled.

[DeSwiss]

28. When the system is itself corrupted......

...it corrupts everything within it's realm. One cannot pass a law commanding that we love each other and that we treat each other with the dignity and respect inherent within our very humanity. And if we could, of what use would such a law be? If love were only given because it is required, it loses its value. It's meaning.

What is clear is that our society is built upon the idea of strata within society and this incident exposes those lines clearly. However, the root of these young men's beliefs reach further down into history. The very essence of their being has been defined with racism included in the mix.

So how do you separate that hate from all the good stuff? Like the grandpa who taught you racism, but also how to fish and swim and he always laughed at your jokes? From the aunt who said not to drink in a water fountain after black people, then showed you how to bake petite-fours that afternoon, and also taught you in Sunday School about how Jesus loves everyone?

- Life is complicated. And it takes time and effort if it is to work for everyone. Not just a few.....


“If people base their identity on identifying with authority, freedom causes anxiety. They must then conceal the victim in themselves by resorting to violence against others.” ~Arno Gruen