US role in Ukraine crisis is not an innocent one

[nikto]

Last edited Thu Feb 5, 2015, 05:07 AM - Edit history (1)

Says William Pfaff, who will likely become
worse-than-Hitler in about another 5-minutes.



Nobody says Putin is a teddy-bear, or that Russia isn't still depressingly primitive in the area
of Gay rights (as is much of the world, sadly, which includes some red state areas in the US).
Basically, Russia is an Oligarchy, like we are in danger of becoming, and rather quickly, too.

But on the issue of Ukraine, America & Europe are not squeaky-clean, by a long-shot.


Pfaff:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/its_time_for_us_and_european_allies_to_step_back_from_ukrainian_conflict_


He has written about this before, but I'm sure all neocons will insist he is lying or delirious.
http://www.williampfaff.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=690

To those willing and able to see nuance, and irony, this is not all black & white ---- But it is
for neocons and those who desire war.

[malaise]

1. We knew that from day one of the so called 'velvet revolutions'

but hey lots of weapons dealers will be making loads of money so who cares who dies.

[newfie11]

2. Thank you for posting this

I've not understood what business we (America) had in the Ukraine in the first place.
If Texas went through with their threats to secede from the union, would we be thrilled to have Russia send an envoy to choose the new president? Of course not but isn't this what America did in Ukraine.
This is none of our business and we need to stay out of it.
This could very well escalate into another war for us and while that would thrill the MIC, it could very well end in a nuclear war and we all lose.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

7. No, that's not what America did in Ukraine. nt

[newfie11]

9. Please enlighten me then. Nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

10. Your analogy makes no sense.

If Texas went through with their threats to secede from the union, would we be thrilled to have Russia send an envoy to choose the new president? Of course not but isn't this what America did in Ukraine

Ukraine didn't vote to secede from anybody, unless you mean the Soviet Union, and that was back in 1991.

After massive street protests failed to dissolve, Victor Yanukovych packed up his most precious valuable possessions and helicoptered away to Russia. To fill the power void after Yanukovych's de facto abdication, the Ukrainian parliament chose an interim government (composed entirely from existing members of parliament) to hold power until new elections could be held several months later. In May 2014, the Ukrainian people elected Petro Poroshenko as their new president in elections that international observers determined to be free and fair.

No, the US didn't "send an envoy to choose the next president." Sorry. Try again next time.

[newfie11]

11. Sorry

You need to do some studying.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

12. Studying what?

All you are doing is repeating the same old conspiracy theories that have been discredited for nearly a year now.

[Duckhunter935]

28. well let's hear how it was done

because those are the facts as much as you do not like them.

[sabrina 1]

30. Yes, a lot of people need to stop falling for the propaganda we are bombarded with

regarding Ukraine before the neocons, and yes, they were over there instigating the riots and backing the coup that took place, and now we have people DENYING that. They were CAUGHT planning it, on tape.

War with Russia is the goal. Just like Iraq, the same propaganda, different place.

The lunatics behind this should have been prosecuted for war crimes. That is the only way to stop them.

So far, our wars haven't gone so well, especially for the people we are always 'saviing'. See Libya right now if you can bear to look at what is happening there.

Thanks for taking the trouble to be informed. We will need to be, the propagandists are all over the internet.

[nikto]

15. I totally agree with you, but maybe your example isn't ideal

Not sure if Texas was the best example. Maybe Mexico or Belize would have been better? Or maybe not.
See where the neocon jumped in there and tried to use that one analogy's weakness
to invalidate your entire point?
(Typical--That's all they've got ).

Perhaps there is no true parallel.
But that doesn't make the US/Euro role, right, or moral, or even practical (except for corporate profit$).

IMO, both Russia and US/Euros are bad guys here, who (in the name of
those compassionate, humanistic Bank$ and corporate interest$) basically want to
plunder Ukraine of its many assets (land, agriculture, timber, minerals, pipeline routes
and maybe even cheap labor, if they can outlaw unions and stuff).

We live in a Banker's World now---Predatory lending and powerful, term-dictating
and va$t foreign investment on a national scale, and Austerity are the way plunder is done nowadays.

So I ask:
Who's in it for UKRAINE and its PEOPLE?

Looks like neither side, to me.

Just the frikkin' truth.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. Apprarently not subscribing to an alternate reality on world events makes one a neo-con in your head

Glad you can come in and immediately analyze what happened in Ukraine via a William Pfaff piece and proclaim yourself to be the guardian of the Ukrainian people's intentions moreso than this second generation Ukrainian-American ever could. I stand humbled in your midst.

[nikto]

22. I know a Cuban-American whose family was forced to leave Cuba after Castro (she was a child)

She is a nice person, and quite intelligent, except on matters of Cuba,
where her intense emotional involvement and lingering sense of trauma,
greatly reduces her ability to think clearly, and she responds irrationally, like the deeply-hurt child
she was at the time of her departure.

She is incapable of discussing Cuba calmly, or even hearing words like "socialism"
or "communism" without her blood-pressure rising sharply, and her "snake-brain" taking over.
It's a little creepy to see, so I stopped trying to talk to her about it.


But I can validate her profound sense of trauma ---- I don't belittle or deny it and I can partly understand it,
in the sense I can empathically "understand" the sometimes blinding hurt inside
a victim of childhood abuse, at least on some level, though I am not a victim myself.

So I discovered, coming from a certain country does not automatically imply a deep, or even rational understanding
of that country. Maybe you are different from my friend; Maybe you are not.
How could I know?

Also, maybe you have noticed how little many Americans know about their own country and its history,
and how close-minded and obstinate they can be about things like Separation of Church and State,
The Civil War, The Constitution, Labor Unions, The Progressive Era, etc.

I reiterate:
Coming from a country is not a guarantee a person will have accurate knowledge of
(or objectivity regarding) that country.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

24. All that I'm asking for is that people remain honest about the events in Ukraine.

And not to propagate fancy, wild conspiracy theories that can easily be dis-proven with just a small amount of research.

Which unfortunately is what Mr. Pfaff and others--and you by proxy--are doing here.

I've never argued that the US should get directly involved militarily in Ukraine. Hell, I'm still on the fence as to whether we should even send military aid there. The only thing I've ever advocated is for people to realize that what happened a year ago was in fact a genuine expression of the Ukrainian people, like it or not. It was not some US underhanded designed scheme with people being paid off to protest. Nor was it a "coup", since nothing shows that Victor Yanukovych was forcibly removed from power but instead voluntarily choose to leave after public pressure against him failed to dissipate. There's video online showing that he took three days to leisurely pack up a variety of luxury belongings (oil paintings, vases, etc.) before walking out to his own fleet of helicopters and flying away. That's hardly indicative of a "coup".

Your attitude here is both patronizing and insulting. What you and others are claiming is as absurd as many of the 9-11 "truther" theories. And in terms of the Ukrainian people, your interests and bald faced lies are just as harmful to them as the neo-cons that you comically accuse me of being.

[nikto]

29. Glad to see you have doubts about fighting a proxy war with Russia, via Ukraine

If you are someone who truly feels threatened by Neocons, then I apologize for the assumption
you were sympathetic with them.

But it is true that Neocons hunger for war with Russia.
Or anybody, for that matter.

If we arm Ukraine, we are risking that country's destruction, a la Vietnam.

It behooves us to find another way out, without indulging our (and Europe's)
corporations and Banks' desire for Ukraine's assets.

Who's in it for Ukraine?

I'm not convinced either side is.

They are clearly a target of Oligarchs on both sides.

Btw,
I visited Kiev in 1985--A beautiful city surrounded by lush countryside (although was part of the Soviet Union then).

[stonecutter357]

3. Putin

[MattSh]

6. Back at ya!

[hobbit709]

4. Probably not but that doesn't make the former KGB colonel the good guy either.

[nikto]

13. Duh

[pampango]

5. If one searches for innocent foreign involvement in Ukraine, good luck with that.

But it is for neocons and those who desire war.

Agreed. How Putin resembles American neocons who hate him.

[Nye Bevan]

8. "Putin retaliated by adroitly seizing Crimea....."

Nice balanced article there.

[nikto]

20. "Putin, who is 347-times worse-than-Hitler, retaliated by seizing Crimea in his hairy claws....."

There.

ftfy

[nikto]

14. I feel the presence of neocons, hovering around this thread

I can hear their leathery wings, flapping out there in the darkness.

[Blue_Tires]

17. Oh, I'm sorry -- Did U.S. armed forces invade while I wasn't watching?

How about some proper perspective on who the real guilty parties are in this ordeal?

And is there any "useful idiot" argument that doesn't boil down to "Ukraine should close her eyes and try to enjoy it -- The more she resists, the more painful it will be"?

[pampango]

18. You haven't been paying attention. We invaded with 'cookie' forces not armed forces.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. Hush neocon!

[Nye Bevan]

21. Can't you just accept that Barack Obama and Joe Biden are determined to seize Ukraine?

Starting a new world war in the process? And peace-loving Vladimir Putin is working tirelessly to thwart their fiendish plans?

[Teutonic Samuel]

23. Innocence? You Want Innocence?

Sorry, my friend, but not on this planet!

[randome]

25. Shame on NATO for speaking to other countries! SHAME!

America's just too fucking uppity!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[CJCRANE]

26. They focus on personality just like they did with Saddam/Gadaffi/Assad.

This technique can be used against just about any leader in the world (and in fact the Tea Party use the same technique against President Obama).

[polly7]

27. K&R nitko. nt.

[joshcryer]

31. LGBT phobia apologia.