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Mon Feb 2, 2015, 10:34 PM

Rising anti-Semitism: ‘The Pianist’ actress considers leaving UK

http://rt.com/uk/227131-maureen-lipman-antisemitism-uk/


Acclaimed actress Maureen Lipman says she could leave Britain because of the growing number of attacks on Jews in recent months.

She says she has spoken about her fears for a “long time,” but recent events have prompted her to think about moving abroad.

Anti-Semitic attacks in the UK reached a record high last year, according to the Jewish charity, Community Security Trust.

Some 304 incidents were recorded in the first six months of 2014, a 36 percent increase on the previous year.

Lipman, who featured in the award winning film The Pianist, rejected the notion that rising anti-Semitism was related to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.

“When the economy dries up, then they turn on the usual scapegoat. The usual suspect. The Jew,” she said.


“There is one school of thought that says it’s because of Israeli policies in the West Bank – it isn’t. There’s been anti-Semitism for the past 4,000 years.”

“When the going gets tough, the Jews get packing ... it's crossed my mind that it's time to have a look around for another place to live.”

BBC’s director of television Danny Cohen voiced similar concerns last December.

“I’ve never felt so uncomfortable being a Jew in the UK as I’ve felt in the last 12 months. And it’s made me think about, you know, is it our long-term home, actually? Because you feel it. I’ve felt it in a way I’ve never felt before,” he said.

Speaking in an interview with LBC radio, Lipman said she had considered going to New York and Israel in recent months.

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Reply Rising anti-Semitism: ‘The Pianist’ actress considers leaving UK (Original post)
Bonobo Feb 2015 OP
Bonobo Feb 2015 #1
NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #2
Bonobo Feb 2015 #3
starroute Feb 2015 #13
Bonobo Feb 2015 #14
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #19
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #20
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #21
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #22
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #23
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #24
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #26
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #27
Bonobo Feb 2015 #29
leftynyc Feb 2015 #75
Dorian Gray Feb 2015 #72
Chef Eric Feb 2015 #7
Bonobo Feb 2015 #9
nomorenomore08 Feb 2015 #135
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #25
Bonobo Feb 2015 #30
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #32
BlueJazz Feb 2015 #4
Bonobo Feb 2015 #5
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #11
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #37
NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #6
BlueJazz Feb 2015 #8
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #10
Bonobo Feb 2015 #12
NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #15
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #16
Exhibit A Feb 2015 #17
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #18
Rhinodawg Feb 2015 #41
leftynyc Feb 2015 #77
nomorenomore08 Feb 2015 #136
Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2015 #111
Bonobo Feb 2015 #112
nomorenomore08 Feb 2015 #137
ann--- Feb 2015 #34
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #36
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #38
Bonobo Feb 2015 #47
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #67
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #79
grossproffit Feb 2015 #103
NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #61
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #65
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #86
LeftishBrit Feb 2015 #122
parkia00 Feb 2015 #51
BlueJazz Feb 2015 #55
smirkymonkey Feb 2015 #54
DetlefK Feb 2015 #28
Bonobo Feb 2015 #31
ann--- Feb 2015 #35
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #40
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #81
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #85
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #88
hack89 Feb 2015 #46
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #84
hack89 Feb 2015 #87
leftynyc Feb 2015 #78
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #89
leftynyc Feb 2015 #91
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #94
leftynyc Feb 2015 #126
randome Feb 2015 #92
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #95
randome Feb 2015 #99
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #93
grossproffit Feb 2015 #102
ann--- Feb 2015 #107
grossproffit Feb 2015 #124
ann--- Feb 2015 #125
NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #130
ann--- Feb 2015 #133
NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #134
LeftishBrit Feb 2015 #129
DetlefK Feb 2015 #39
Solindsey Feb 2015 #42
MohRokTah Feb 2015 #96
LeftishBrit Feb 2015 #132
ann--- Feb 2015 #33
hack89 Feb 2015 #44
Rhinodawg Feb 2015 #45
Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #48
ann--- Feb 2015 #52
Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #53
ann--- Feb 2015 #70
leftynyc Feb 2015 #82
leftynyc Feb 2015 #80
MohRokTah Feb 2015 #97
LeftishBrit Feb 2015 #120
Rhinodawg Feb 2015 #43
smirkymonkey Feb 2015 #56
LanternWaste Feb 2015 #57
Rhinodawg Feb 2015 #58
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #90
Chef Eric Feb 2015 #66
leftynyc Feb 2015 #83
LeftishBrit Feb 2015 #121
mr blur Feb 2015 #49
Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #50
lame54 Feb 2015 #59
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #60
Bonobo Feb 2015 #62
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #63
Bonobo Feb 2015 #64
LeftishBrit Feb 2015 #119
Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #68
Bonobo Feb 2015 #69
ann--- Feb 2015 #71
Bonobo Feb 2015 #73
ann--- Feb 2015 #74
Bonobo Feb 2015 #76
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #100
Bonobo Feb 2015 #104
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #105
Bonobo Feb 2015 #106
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #108
Bonobo Feb 2015 #109
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #113
Bonobo Feb 2015 #115
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #117
Bonobo Feb 2015 #118
MohRokTah Feb 2015 #98
grossproffit Feb 2015 #101
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #127
enid602 Feb 2015 #110
Bonobo Feb 2015 #114
nomorenomore08 Feb 2015 #138
randome Feb 2015 #116
Spider Jerusalem Feb 2015 #123
LeftishBrit Feb 2015 #128
Bonobo Feb 2015 #131

Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 10:49 PM

1. Recently I saw that the UK's least favorite countries are "Russia" and "Israel"

This is why I say it is hard to separate anti-semitism from "hating Israel" - because the two do so often go together.

Anyway, they can at least agree with Russia about hating jews, so there is that.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:03 PM

2. True.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:07 PM

3. There's ALWAYS some reason that can be found to blame the victims, but as she said...

4,000 year history of anti-semitism pretty much everywhere strongly suggests that is goes way beyond Israel/Palestine.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 02:38 AM

13. 4000 years of what?

In 2000 BC, there was no anti-Semitism. In fact, there were no Jews. There were only Canaanites, worshipping their traditional pantheon of gods, until about 1200 BC, when a collapse of the mainstream Canaanite culture led to a cultural revolution in the hill country further inland.

According to Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's The Bible Unearthed:

"These surveys revolutionized the study of early Israel. The discovery of the remains of a dense network of highland villages -- all apparently established within the span of a few generations -- indicated that a dramatic social transformation had taken place in the central hill country of Canaan around 1200 BCE. There was no sign of violent invasion or even the infiltration of a clearly defined ethnic group. Instead, it seemed to be a revolution in lifestyle. In the formerly sparsely populated highlands from the Judean hills in the south to the hills of Samaria in the north, far from the Canaanite cities that were in the process of collapse and disintegration, about two-hundred fifty hilltop communities suddenly sprang up. Here were the first Israelites."

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Response to starroute (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 02:40 AM

14. Sorry, I should have said 1,500 years.

Doesn't change the point one bit.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:32 AM

19. 1200 years. and you're saying anti-semitism began from the moment there were jews?

 

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Response to ND-Dem (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:38 AM

20. When do you think it began?

Do you think it exists?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:40 AM

21. i have no idea when it began and of course it exists. but i doubt it began 1200 years ago, as soon

 

as there were jews.

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Response to ND-Dem (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:43 AM

22. Jews didn't "begin" 1200 years ago.

Check your math.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:51 AM

23. i said "as soon as there were jews" not that "jews began". and i should have said 1200 BC,

 

sue me.

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Response to ND-Dem (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:52 AM

24. Hmmm...ain't that the same thing you did to Bonobo?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:01 AM

26. no.

 

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Response to ND-Dem (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:06 AM

27. If you say so.

Just like the other poster, you were both trifling with "exactness" and avoiding the actual topic.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:35 AM

29. Give him a break man...

He doubts it began as soon as there were jews. Lol. Than he quibbled with the 1500 years number and then backed up over his own foot when he self corrected to 1200 BC forgetting that would mean 3200 years.

Jews.... So troublesome with autocorrect wanting me to capitalize "Jews". It makes it actually hard to intentionally make if lower case.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #29)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 08:59 AM

75. I noticed the same thing

 

my phone would make you go back to the word to uncapitalize it. Poster isn't fooling anyone with the nonsense.

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Response to starroute (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 07:55 AM

72. So 3200

years of anti-semitism, then.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:19 PM

7. As far as I'm concerned, the two only go together for anti-semites.

Anybody with the slightest bit of sense should know that Israel's harsh treatment of the Palestinians is no reason for attacking Jews; it is merely an excuse, and a poor one at that.

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Response to Chef Eric (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:32 PM

9. I totally agree...

Now tell me how we can tell the two apart without knowing the person well. That would be a big help, because it is not clear who is who right away and that can be a problem.

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Response to Chef Eric (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 10:15 PM

135. +2

Blaming all Jews for the Israeli government's oppressive policies is repugnant.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:53 AM

25. In both those cases, recent conflicts are the main reason

The poll was in early August 2014 - so, in the middle of the attack on Gaza, and when Russia had taken Crimea, and right after MH17 was shot down.

The poll results: http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/field/field_document/20150129YouGovGP.pdf

The 'especially unfavourable' rating for Russia:
June 2010 24
June 2011 23
June 2012 30
Aug 2014 56

Israel:
June 2010 32 (about a month after Israel attacked the Turkish aid flotilla)
June 2011 22
June 2012 17
Aug 2014 35

While North Korea has been consistently 'unfavoured', Iran has dropped from being the most unfavoured from 2010-12 to the 3rd in 2014.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:36 AM

30. Anti-Semitic attacks up 36 percent.

Did you read that part? Or is that also the fault of Israel?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:43 AM

32. I replied to your post about the poll, not to your OP

for a reason.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:08 PM

4. Never understood the Jewish hate thing. I've even asked people to explain it to me and I get..

 

...the Deer/Headlight thing. All I can think of is the same reason some people don't like blacks. They still live in a tribe somewhere in their mind.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:12 PM

5. Everyone needs an "Other".

Jews are the non-white whites that everyone can hate.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 01:31 AM

11. "Jews are the non-white whites that everyone can hate."

I am stealing that! I have seen it's incarnation more and more, including the recent kerfuffle about the Briton who wants to prevent the "Jewification" of some British city suburb.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:11 AM

37. Brilliant!


This might be my sig line in March!

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:13 PM

6. Cool signature.

I think anti-Semitism may go deeper than what you posted. We have seen millennia of propaganda telling us that Jews killed Jesus, control all the money, and are in a worldwide conspiracy against anyone who isn't Jewish. It's a hatred that continues to be fed.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:28 PM

8. Thank you. Maybe that's why I've never developed those feelings. I don't believe in any of ...

 

...the reasons you wrote. Or I'm just lucky.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 01:29 AM

10. It is amazing how little people actually know about anti-Semitism.

Despite its eons of existence, many really don't get the concept, especially it's modern day incarnations, as evidenced by the thread Bonobo put up a week or so ago. I got a book on the history of anti-Semitism for Chanukkah, but haven't started it. I have researched it for years, so I know quite a bit, but there always seems to be something new to learn.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 01:42 AM

12. I really don't blame them though.

I grew up on Long Island in a predominately Italian Catholic neighborhood.

All through the 70's, we were the victims of anti-semitism. Our hedges would be burned on Halloween, an older brother would be beaten up by someone screaming "you killed Christ", another brother would be unable to date, we would not be allowed in the country club because it wasn't for "us".

And for myself, I could expect a penny to be thrown at me almost every day (even from friends!) or be called "bagel boy" or "bagel nose" or have a swastika drawn on a locker or on a book, or have a "jew joke" made ("How do you drive a Jew crazy?", etc.) It was so prevalent, I didn't even think it was odd. Christmas was the worst. Everything was Christmas and Jesus and everyone knew I was Jewish so I always could expect it to be highlighted even more than. Every year our synagogue could expect a swastika painted on it, etc.

But... when I tell these stories, I am sure some either don't believe it or think it is all different now. I doubt that it is just as I doubt that America is no longer racist.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 04:06 AM

15. I still have to occasionally tell someone...

that referring to bargaining as "jewing" is offensive. They honestly don't know and don't even think about it.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 04:13 AM

16. I have to explain "Jew" is a noun not an adjective.

I almost split a gut when some referred to Chanukkah as "Jew Christmas." The first time I actually heard "Jew someone down" was when I moved to OK when I was 30.

It is really disappointing when I hear so-called liberals engaging in anti-Semitism, making excuses for it, claiming everyone else is the "new Jews," or using it as an exception (i.e. anti-Semitism is not as bad as/gets a pass unlike...insert bigotry).

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #12)


Response to Bonobo (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 04:46 AM

18. I do blame some.

There is no reason not to know this; some simply choose to look the other way.

I encountered some anti-Semitism growing up in the 80's, mostly. I was threatened because I was a "Christ-killer", which I didn't even understand. I was made to sit in the hallway during a Christmas party because they didn't want to "offend" me. Someone once asked about my horns. That one threw me for a loop because it was another stereotype I hadn't heard. In my 20's, at a gay bar of all places, the owner was on the mike making "Jew jokes" for 5 minutes. Most people were laughing, only a few were pissed.

But... when I tell these stories, I am sure some either don't believe it or think it is all different now


Yup! We are just liars just making shit up for sympathy. Or, my favorite, "It's not like it is Nazi Germany. Get over it." Then, there are those who "remind" us how everyone else has it worse and they are actually "the new Jews." Those on the left recoil at someone telling a POC they are "playing the race card," but don't blink an eye at claiming Jews "play the anti-Semitism card" or various other tropes as seen in your thread about anti-Semitism.

Just because there aren't jackboots shutting down Jewish businesses or burning synagogues to the ground, we are just being "paranoid."

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:39 AM

41. + 1,000,000...Bta, you nailed it.

 

my favorite is "playing the anti-Semitism card".

Your post should be required reading.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:04 AM

77. Great Post, BtA

 

Could be the best post I've ever seen on this topic on DU.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #18)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 10:21 PM

136. Excellent post.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:07 PM

111. I never understood the "you killed Christ" bit

According to Christian theology, Jesus was SUPPOSED to die.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #111)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:10 PM

112. You'd think they would THANK us!

He died for everyone's sins, right? Now everyone can like sin AND still go to Heaven, right?

So where's the thanks?

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #111)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 10:22 PM

137. I know. It literally makes no sense, in terms of Christianity.



But since when is bigotry ever especially logical?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:49 AM

34. Anti-SOMETHING has existed for eons

 

Jews are not the only ones subject to it. I think African Americans (and Africans in general) have had it worse. The Holocaust also involved the extermination of millions of non-Jews.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:03 AM

36. Did I or any one claim anything differently?

No? Shocker.

"The Holocaust also involved the extermination of millions of non-Jews."

You don't say? For real and for true?

Yes, I know this. I even wrote an OP about it. Didn't see your post there claiming "African Americans (and Africans in general)" had it worse than gays, who weren't murdered in the millions.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:16 AM

38. I'm not playing that game - not falling for it

Just so you know. Solidarity.


The two guys on the left and right stood with the guy in the middle - so I stand with them!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 08:37 AM

47. Solidarity!

You're awesome.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #38)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 02:16 AM

67. And I stand with you!

Our communities face so may hardships, often quite different, but Chris Rock said it best when he was talking about post 9-11 hysteria...that train is never late!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:11 AM

79. And STILL

She keeps at it.

At this point - ignorance is deliberate.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #38)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:26 AM

103. Some would like to forget this or now say that it never happened.

Solidarity from me as well.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:42 PM

61. Seriously?

You're trying the "some people have had it worse than Jews" play?

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #61)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 10:23 PM

65. Or as another poster put it...

Others have it worse but don't have "the luxury of playing the constant victim".

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #61)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:25 AM

86. She sure did

And without remorse.

It's the same old bullshit - divide and conquer.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:54 PM

122. Of course it did.

One can oppose ALL forms of bigotry and hate-crimes. Pointing out anti-Semitism does not mean that one is ignoring others.

With increasing bigotry of all sorts in this world, all actual and potential targets of bigotry - i.e. most people! -need (in the words of a Founding Father in a somewhat different context) to 'all hang together or assuredly we will all hang separately'.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 10:02 AM

51. I have always believed it's linked to the lack of a homeland issue.

The people without a country. Jews were basically outsiders where ever they made their home before the creation of Israel. Even if they were born at a certain place, they were not really considered of that place. And humans are naturally suspicious of "people who are different" they, them, those who are not like us etc... And it was always convenient to blame any problems faced by a community on outsiders amongst them. And issue often stroked up by leaders who find scapegoats to blame when things do not go as planned. And basically these simplistic belief just grew and stuck with communities.

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Response to parkia00 (Reply #51)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 10:55 AM

55. There you go. That's the best explanation I've ever heard. Thanks!

 

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 10:54 AM

54. Neither do I.

It just baffles me.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:12 AM

28. Actually, the economy already dried up 5 years ago.

How can she reject the notion that anti-semitism and Israel are related when anti-semitism made a sudden jump after the latest Gaza-war???

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:38 AM

31. As has been said on this very thread

The only ones that use Israel as a defense for anti-semitism are those that were already anti-Semites.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:51 AM

35. Being anti-war on

 

innocent Palestinians is NOT anti-semitism. It is being against war crimes by Israel that go unpunished and lead to frustration - and sometimes to hatred - of those who inflict so much pain on innocent Palestinians, especially the children.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:22 AM

40. Except she's not an Israeli

Her Wiki shows she was born in England. It's silly for British people to take out their frustration and sometimes hatred on someone who doesn't even get to vote in Israel.

I can relate to a comment she made - I never thought I'd see the abject hatred towards blacks in America in my life time. This is stuff my 89 year old Aunt Clara is shocked to see again. She was born and raised in Jim Crow and is worried for us (her black descendents).

I no longer feel comfortable in America as a black person. She's shown me who she is and I believe her.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #40)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:13 AM

81. Are they?

Does the fact that she feels uncomfortable actually mean that British people are taking out 'their frustration and sometimes hatred' on her personally? Or does it mean that she just identifies with those who are the targets of frustration, while denying that that frustration might actually arise from, say, the killing of 2000 Palestinians and the widespread devastation rained down upon a captive populace in Gaza?

Certainly, it is ignorant to blame every person who hews to the Jewish faith for the actions of the Israeli government. But the world is full of ignorant actions and beliefs, so I don't see how she can be so certain that there is no connection between the latest round of destruction and death rained down on Gaza with 'frustration and sometimes hatred' that surged in the immediate chronologic aftermath.

So I'm not sure that her situation and that of blacks in America is exactly analogous.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #81)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:22 AM

85. yep they are

Especially because for this black woman in America spent a lot of seders with a her mother's paternal grandparents. I *get* it. There are things I get that perhaps you can't?


She can be certain of some things - because it's is HOW she has experienced her country. Much as I've experienced mine.

What right do you or I have to tell her how she has experienced it was wrong?

I believe her. It's her experience - her voice.

Her reality rides over my perception and yours.



ETA - but you DO agree that she is NOT an Israeli and could not have voted for NetanCrayCray so it's not her responsibility for what their government does - right? Because my country being all kissy face with the Saudis does not make me responsible for their stoning and beheadings.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #85)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:39 AM

88. But she's not making statements just about her.

When she says that such animosity is not a result of the Gaza killings, she's actually making statements on behalf of all the people who are causing that upswing in attacks on Jewish people.

Certainly she has good reason to think what she does, but that doesn't actually mean it's the reality behind what's going on. The Jewish people have a long history that dictates that they SHOULD be mistrustful of other peoples, that they SHOULD expect people who dislike them or attack them to be doing so for absolutely no rational reason.

And attacking regular Jewish folks in England for the actions of the Israeli military is indeed irrational. But 'her reality' isn't 'the only reality'. Each person has their own 'reality', their own reasons for what they do, even if those reasons don't make objective, logical sense. So no, I don't think she can categorically state that there is no connection between the two in the minds of other people.

As to your ETA, correct. Although it's possible she's made statements of support or even monetary support for his government and it's actions. This is the first time I think I've ever heard her name, so I have no clue what her position on the Palestinian people and their treatment by Israel is. If she has offered public support to Netanyahu's actions, she then would have assumed some small measure of responsibility for helping sway public sentiment to support such actions. Just as if you had made public statements that support the House of Saud, you would assume some small measure of 'responsibility' for supporting their atrocities.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 08:01 AM

46. What does that have to do with Jews in England?

they have nothing to do with Israel's actions.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #46)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:21 AM

84. Are you that naive?

Living in a cave? Are you completely unaware that the world is just chock full of people who lack the rational capacity to make nuanced distinctions between people who actually commit acts and those who share some trait, such as a religion with them?

In the wake of every media-covered attack perpetrated by Muslims, attacks on Mosques and Muslims surge, despite the fact that those people 'have nothing to do with' the terrorists actions. And our elected offiicials and intelligence agencies come up with even more excuses to profile and spy on Muslim communities and Muslim American citizens.

So why should you be surprised that attacks on Jewish people likewise surge after the Israeli government kills a few thousand Palestinians?

Welcome to reality - it's full of people who will attack anyone who 'is similar to' people who do things they don't like.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #84)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:26 AM

87. I was replying to someone who was justifying such behavior

I am not naive - I understand very well why it happens. Doesn't mean I have to tolerate someone who tries to justify it.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:09 AM

78. I suspect you don't even realize

 

you made the whole point of the problem by bringing Israel into this. What the fuck does this British actress have to do with the Israeli's?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #78)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:49 AM

89. Nothing, in the minds of nuanced, rational people.

But then nuanced, rational people don't go around committing hate crimes.

Pointing out, on the other hand, what ignorant people do and why they might do it, is on point.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #89)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:03 AM

91. So what do you think about

 

a poster right here saying this:

Once she face the fact that it IS Nuttyahoo's fault, she'll understand the attacks against Jews are much less frequent than the Israelis' attacks on Palestinians. Who can forget the last battle when Israelis displayed their outright hatred of Palestinians.


That's right - a reasonable, rational and nuanced person right here puts the blame for anti-semitism in Great Britain, not on the anti-semites themselves - but on Israel.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #91)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:32 AM

94. I think it points out a facet of reality, while actually also being illogical.

We KNOW that ignorant, unnuanced people exist in this world.

So when a Muslim terrorist kills a group of people somewhere in the world, we KNOW that there will be a spike in anti-Muslim hatred in the world, and an increase in attacks on Muslims who had nothing to do with the attack. By people who think (stupidly) that the answer to violence is more violence, and are indiscriminate in who they hurt.

Ditto with Netanyahu and the deaths of 2000 Palestinians. There WILL be a spike in anti-Jewish hatred in the world as a result, and an increase in attacks on Jewish people who had nothing to do with those deaths.

Do I have to 'assign blame' then? If we KNOW that action X will result in actions Y and Z, are we 'blaming' X if we acknowledge the correlation? Who bears the real blame? The people who actually commit any given act of violence. But pointing out that there IS going to be a reaction from violent idiots to actions taken by another violent idiot is reality.

But as to why I actually don't agree with you that that quoted statement is entirely 'rational'. (Or at least I don't see logic in it.) The person who wrote it seems to posit some logical jump between knowing about the destruction in Gaza and some 'understanding' about the number of attacks on innocent Jewish people. But even if you agree hypothetically (since I'm sure you don't agree in reality) and stated that there was a direct link between the slaughter in Gaza and a rise in anti-Semitism, I still don't see where that leads to any sort of 'understanding' about the relative numbers of such attacks as compared to deaths in Gaza. The number of such attacks isn't going to have any real correlation to total Gaza deaths, because the attacks are not being perpetrated by rational individuals.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #94)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 02:04 PM

126. My point is that

 

I don't expect to find ignorant un-nuanced people here on DU. That poster - not some ignorance schmuck from some rural flyover town - was QUITE CLEARLY blaming the rise on anti-semitism on Bibi and Israel and not on the vile anti-semites themselves. It's pathetic.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #89)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:07 AM

92. I sincerely doubt people are that politically aware in their thinking, though.

 

Usually hatred comes from a different wellspring than political retribution.

I think the reason for rising anti-Semitism is related to the Middle East but not tied directly to Israel. The atrocities committed by followers of Islam ends up conflating Islam with being Jewish because, let's face it, there are a hell of a lot of similarities.

Both 'tribes' covet the same land. Both think they were chosen by God. Both have their mind-numbingly complicated rituals. Their 'special' clothes.

They are 2 sides of the same coin.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #92)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:36 AM

95. It's an excuse, though.

They're not ACTUALLY creating any sort of real 'payback'. But they're stupid enough to think they are somehow 'avenging' some prior evil action. So it gives them that added 'edge', that leads some percentage of those who already hate to take the next step forward (backward?) into committing evil acts, rather than just thinking about them.

It helps 'radicalize' them. It's not reasonable, but then violence isn't reasonable.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #95)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:46 AM

99. Got it. And agree.

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #78)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:32 AM

93. In the OP, she says that antisemitism in the UK is not related to Israel's policies in the West Bank

and the thread starter also made reply #1, pointing at British disapproval of Israel (and Russia). Israel has been part of this thread from the start.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:25 AM

102. Really. How would you feel if your neighbors were shooting rockets at you day in and day out? eom

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Response to grossproffit (Reply #102)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:40 AM

107. Well,

 

I wouldn't want innocent children bombed in their sleep because of it.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #107)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 01:52 PM

124. So, you'd be okay with them bombing your children while they sleep. Gotcha.

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Response to grossproffit (Reply #124)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 01:56 PM

125. That isn't what

 

happens since Palestine is not provided the air power and deadly weapons that Israel is provided with by the U.S.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #125)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:12 PM

130. Will you ever just answer a question?

Do you or do you not care that rockets are fired indiscriminately into Israeli territory by Palestinian militants? Do you care at all when Israeli children are murdered?

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #130)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 06:44 AM

133. I care that

 

ANY innocent person is killed - anywhere.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #133)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 08:43 PM

134. Glad to know that.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 07:02 PM

129. But punishing Europaean Jews for the actions of the Israel government IS antisemitism

Just as it is not Islamophobic to be against Al Quaeda.

It IS Islamophobic to punish Europaean or American Muslims for the actions of Al Quaeda.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:18 AM

39. That's not difficult.

Being critical of Israel and being anti-Semite are two different things.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:45 AM

42. Anti-semitism... so watered down.

 

Simply criticising Israel gets you labelled anti-semitic, so much so that it's losing all meaning. It makes a lot of people wonder if all these supposed incidents are even genuinely grevious attacks on Jews... or just ill will towards the mess that is Israel.

Her completely delusional attitude towards Israel's crimes against humanity, makes her look like a complete joke.

And I couldn't care less if she stayed or packed up and moved on. There are minority groups today in the UK going through far worse shit and don't have the luxury of playing the constant victim.

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Response to Solindsey (Reply #42)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:43 AM

96. ^^^ This post right here proves the point made in the article. eom

 

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 04:10 AM

132. Though it did make a sudden jump after the Gaza war, it had in fact been increasing for a while

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:47 AM

33. Once she can

 

face the fact that it IS Nuttyahoo's fault, she'll understand the attacks against Jews are much less frequent than the Israelis' attacks on Palestinians. Who can forget the last battle when Israelis displayed their outright hatred of Palestinians.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:56 AM

44. So every Jew in the world bears some blame for Israel's actions?

really?

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Response to ann--- (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 08:01 AM

45. Oh lord....

 

wow...just wow wow wow.

I think I'd better STFU before go apoplectic.



serenity now.


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Response to ann--- (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 09:15 AM

48. By that logic, you would have to give your strong approval to anyone who criticized Muslims for the

 

constant oppression by Muslim Governments of LGBT people, women and people of faiths other than the approved version of Islam. Am I correct in that? You do support the criticism of Muslims at large for the evils committed by Islamic governments? If you don't, then how do you explain what you have posted here about others?
10 countries, all of them Islamic, execute LGBT people. Think about that.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 10:28 AM

52. I'm not sure

 

I understand what your comments have to do with anti-semitism. I do not support oppression of ANYONE - period - and did not say or imply that in my comments.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #52)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 10:44 AM

53. You understand it. You make use of a double standard.

 

It is just as wrong to excuse attacks on Jewish people because of Netanyahu as it is to excuse attacks on Muslims because of the acts of Muslim nations. You do the first, I'm asking you if you also approve of the second.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #53)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 07:47 AM

70. Nope

 

That's what YOU are inferring from what I said. I am not EXCUSING attacks on Jews OR ANYONE ELSE. That is where you are making your mistake in comprehending my post.


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Response to ann--- (Reply #70)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:17 AM

82. You most certainly are doing that

 

Your post about a British actress feeling unwelcome in her own country led you to write this:

Once she can face the fact that it IS Nuttyahoo's fault, she'll understand the attacks against Jews are much less frequent than the Israelis' attacks on Palestinians. Who can forget the last battle when Israelis displayed their outright hatred of Palestinians.

According to you - it's Bibi's fault - not the anti semites, it's Israel's fault, not the anti-semites. But you'll shriek like a banshee if anyone tries to blame ALL Muslims for the actions of a minority. You don't even see how much of a hypocrite you are which is really equal parts sad and pathetic.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #33)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:12 AM

80. Your post is an embarrassment to

 

this entire community. Here you are - blaming ALL Jews - including this BRITISH actress - for the actions of Israel. You are the problem.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #33)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:43 AM

97. And another post that proves precisely the point in the article. eom

 

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Response to ann--- (Reply #33)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:45 PM

120. Which British Jews voted for Nuttyahoo?

NONE; so what's the relevance? We're talking about British Jews, not Israelis.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:47 AM

43. Gee, I wonder why Jews in the UK and France want out?

 

hmmmm....what has changed in the past few years that lead to this rise in anti-Semitism in the UK and France?


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Response to Rhinodawg (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 11:48 AM

56. Of course, you can never say it.

But I am thinking the same thing that you are thinking (probably). Anti-semitism toward Jews is ok, but it's not ok toward Arabs (who are Semites) or other Muslims. Not that it should be, but it seems as though calling out the racism of certain groups of people is forbidden in liberal circles.

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Response to Rhinodawg (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 12:08 PM

57. Ask yourself what led to the historic spikes of Antisemitism and you'll have an answer

Ask yourself what led to the historic spikes of Antisemitism and you'll have an answer which does not validate your bias or the implication you deftly conceal yourself behind.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #57)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 01:05 PM

58. HorseS***

 

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Response to Rhinodawg (Reply #58)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:00 AM

90. Oh come on!

Don't you do everything you do for exactly the same reasons people hundreds of years ago did? Even if circumstances have changed drastically over the course of those hundreds of years?

Surely every person has studied history, so that they know to do what there forebears did, and to agree completely with their reasoning as to why they do or don't do things. I never sail a ship too far out, for instance, because historically everyone knew you'd eventually fall off the edge of the world.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #57)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 02:03 AM

66. I have asked myself and I don't see a reason.

I see an excuse, but not a reason.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #57)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:20 AM

83. I asked myself

 

And came up with stupidity, ignorance and hate. Do I get a prize?

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Response to Rhinodawg (Reply #43)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:50 PM

121. (1) Economic crises; (2) I/P conflict - but I don't think that's the main source; (3) Increasing

ease of spreading propaganda by the Internet; (4) Memories of the Holocaust and the extreme and terrible consequences of anti-Semitism are receding as fewer people are alive who remember it; (5) Although it is worse now than sometimes, there has always been anti-Semitism in the UK and even more in France. (Eastern Europe is mostly far, far worse.) George Orwell wrote a good article about British anti-Semitism in the 1940s.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 09:44 AM

49. Hardly an "acclaimed actress"!

 

Tedious one-note bore, actually. Made a fortune out of parodying a Jewish mother in British Telecom commercials and knows perfectly well that being anti-Israeli murderous actions is not the same as being anti-Semitic or indeed anti-Jewish.

Now, what was the last thing she was acclaimed for? Oh yes, threatening to flounce out of the country. Who would notice, or care much?

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Response to mr blur (Reply #49)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 10:00 AM

50. She is a contantly working actor, twice nominated for BAFTA awards, she works in every medium

 

and has committed the miracle of sustaining herself as an artist for most of her 68 years. The National Theater under Olivier, Royal Shakespeare Company at Stratford, her career is the sort that actors hope to have. She worked very young, she works in her later life.
Take issue with her opinions or politics but the personal attack is both beside the point and entirely inaccurate.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 01:06 PM

59. Are you sure it's not the constant mis- pronouncing of the movie title?

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:14 PM

60. The Community Security Trust itself links anti-semitic attack rates to war in Gaza

The 302 antisemitic incidents recorded in July 2014 is the highest ever monthly total recorded by CST. The previous record high of 289 incidents in January 2009 coincided with a previous period of conflict between Israel and Hamas. CST also recorded at least 150 antisemitic incidents in August 2014, making it the third-highest monthly total on record. The totals for July and August are expected to rise further as more incident reports reach CST.

http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=5047

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #60)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 08:38 PM

62. Attacking British Jews because of Israel

Is act of vicious anti-semitism that reveals the problem rather than rationalizing it as you seem to imply.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #62)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 08:43 PM

63. Yes, it is vicious anti-semitism; but Lipman's suggestion of the cause of the rise makes no sense

She thinks it's because there's a poor economy, and that Jews then get used as scapegoats. But the incidence of anti-semitism increases when Israel attacks Gaza, as the CST points out.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #63)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 08:50 PM

64. Fine and that makes no difference at all to Jews who must face the reality.

Jew hating is ancient and it never really dies. That's why Jews never really "take off their coats" when they move to a country. They always know what happened to the perfectly well-assimilated German Jews, the perfectly well-assimilated Spanish Jews, the perfectly well-assimilated Portuguese Jews and so on and so on.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #63)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:43 PM

119. I think it's both.

Certainly the Middle East conflict gets used as an excuse by anti-Semites; just as Al Quaeda/ISIS terrorist attacks get used by Islamophobes. Hate crimes tend to spike after Israeli-Palestinian eruptions (when there are increasing hate crimes against Jews) or terrorist attacks (when there are increasing hate crimes against Muslims)

But I do think a lot of it - whether with Jews, Muslims, immigrants, or disabled people - is related to the economy and a general rise in insecurity causing scapegoating, and also causing an increased tendency to seek for 'simple' solutions, which are often linked to bigotry. After all, it is not logical to attack British Jews for the actions of the Israeli government, or British Muslims (most of whom are not even from the Middle East) for the actions of ISIS.





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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 02:18 AM

68. Stirred the hornest's nest again.



Shine on little light!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 02:39 AM

69. I think it established one thing quite clearly.

Last edited Wed Feb 4, 2015, 08:03 AM - Edit history (1)

That is that although people claim that anti-Israel and anti-Semitism are two completely different things, they -unsurprisingly-are not.

If one were to draw a Venn Diagram of Anti-Semites (or as I prefer to call them, "Jew-Haters" and critics of Israel, we would see enormous overlap.

BUT THAT'S NOT ALL!

We also see, as Muriel was kind enough to demonstrate (albeit unwittingly I think) that people react to Israel's actions and take it out on Jews no matter who they are or what their nationality is. This is unsurprising to Jews and students of history.

Now, the tough questions. Do we conclude that only true Anti-Semites (that is those who were already anti-semites) link Israel and Jews in this way? Or do we have to face the fact that Israel is in fact leading to the creation of more anti-semites (as one of the hornets on this thread said).

In either case, the salient point for us Jews is that things are getting ugly in Europe again. And maybe not just Europe.

I would like to put the following in BOLD. So if you feel I am shouting, you are right...

IF ANTI-ISRAEL LEADS TO ANTI-SEMITIC VIOLENCE, HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU BLAME US JEWS FOR KEEPING OUR ANTENNA TUNED TO YOUR OVER-THE-TOP ANTI-ISRAELI CRITICISM? IT PUTS US IN VERY REAL DANGER.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #69)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 07:50 AM

71. Then how do you

 

explain the fact that even some Jews AND Israelis criticize Israel's government - not the people as a whole.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #71)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 08:01 AM

73. Wow. You really don't get it.

I criticize Israel too. What the hell does that have to do with British Jews getting attacked?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #73)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 08:51 AM

74. It is related

 

to what you posted about anti-semitism. These are YOUR words that I was responding to...

That is that although people claim that anti-Israel and anti-Semitism are two completely different things, they -unsurprisingly-are not.

If one were to draw a Venn Diagram of Anti-Semites (or as I prefer to call them, "Jew-Haters" and critics of Israel, we would see enormous overlap.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #74)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:00 AM

76. Your confusion is...confusing

You seem to think I am saying there is 100 percent correlation between criticism of Israel and Jew hating. Is that what you think I am saying?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #69)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:10 AM

100. In re your 'tough questions'...

The number of terrorist attacks has climbed in the wake of America's attacks on largely Muslim populations in various countries wourldwide. Do you think that increased American violence against Muslim populations, including lots of 'collateral damage', has increased or decreased the anti-American sentiment worldwide? Have America's violent actions decreased the number of new terrorists, or actually created new terrorists? And are these new terrorists careful to discriminate between the American military and government, or do they end up hating all Americans, and do things like kill journalists and aid workers?

Someone upthread said we have to look to history for 'reasons' in growing antisemitism. Here's a historical phrase for folks - Violence begets violence. And that new violence generally isn't very discriminating about whether it simply attacks those who perpetrated the prior violence, or also includes innocents who simply share some common trait with those who did.

It's a demonstration of stupidity, but it's reality. When Netanyahu's IDF slaughters Palestinians, antisemitism will grow. When polls show that the vast majority of Israelis support his actions, antisemitism will grow. Because lots of people aren't logical and rational enough to separate 'the Jewish people' from 'the Jewish state of Israel'.

Is it criticism of Israel that puts Jewish people in danger, or is it the actual violent actions of the IDF under Netanyahu that put Jewish people in danger? Was it the abuses and torture at Abu Ghraib that 'put Americans at risk', or was it the fact that people criticized those actions that 'put Americans at risk'?

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #100)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:31 AM

104. There have always been reasons to attack Jews. Somehow they always seem to be justifiable to some.

You want to equate attacks on America due to American foreign policy with attacks on Jews due to Israeli foreign policy.

THAT is what you are selling and no, I am not buying.

I reject your loathsome analogy utterly.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #104)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:34 AM

105. So nothing ever changes in your world.

It's not even remotely possible that people ever develop new stupid reasons for the things they do, they have to always be using the OLD stupid reasons for things people did in the past in Bonoboland.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #105)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:38 AM

106. I don't understand what you mean by that.

Are you walling back your loathsome and entirely misplaced analogy?

According to you:

Attacks on American due to American foreign policy is analogous to attacks on British Jews due to Israeli foreign policy.

I see victim blaming. Irrational victim blaming. I see Anti-Semitism and I see someone trying to explain the rationale for it.

And it makes me ill.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:49 AM

108. Look again. At ALL my comments.

And see sentences like 'Who's to blame - the people who commit each individual act'.

And notice how I always talk about people who commit violence being stupid and ignorant.

I'm not 'walking anything back'.

Yes, I am saying that attacks on Americans who have nothing to do with the military or government and who don't support American violence propagated by the American government and military is like attacks on Jewish people who don't support Israeli violence propagated by the Israeli government and military.

While it's not 'exact', because the 'identifier' in attacks on Americans is 'shared nationality' and the 'identifier' in attacks on Jewish people is 'shared religion', nonetheless, members of some Venn diagram group are being attacked by ignorant and stupid people who object to things that others in the group are doing.

You 'see' what you want to see. You don't want to see me pointing out WHY stupid people do stupid things. You want to SEE me agreeing with stupid people, so you do. And so you see me as 'victim blaming', rather than what I'm actually doing, which is pointing out the 'reasoning' behind what the stupid people are doing.

It's not MY reasoning. I'm pointing out THEIR reasoning.

But go ahead and 'be ill' and think whatever you want about me. You will anyway.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #108)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:57 AM

109. If your entire point is to say that anti-semites use Israel as an excuse

for their already pre-set Jew hating, anti-semitic violence, then my response is "duh".

If it were not Israel, it would be for some other reason. Because they were already anti-semites.

How do I know this? Because only a Jew-hating Anti-Semite would use Israel's actions as an excuse to commit violence against British citizens that happen to be Jewish.

I certainly hope I have not said anything above that you disagree with.

So, your pointing out "their" reasoning is not terribly enlightening. It is, idiotic anti-semitism. If you agree, great.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #109)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:11 PM

113. Well my point was not 'Israel' per se

but specific violent actions taken by the Israeli military. But beyond the 'duh' part, I do think there IS some additional radicalization effect that occurs in the pool of 'haters' whether they be haters of Americans or haters of Jewish people, when those who hate most virulently can point to 'bad actions' taken by those they deceptively tie the larger pool to the actions of the few.

Ie, you (not you you, but a generic you that in this case represents the extremists) can recruit more people to actually commit violence when you can point to something you can pretend is something you blame on those upon whom you want to commit violence.

And many (most?) political leaders who countenance the use of violence against others seem all too willing to use such faulty logic to generate additional hatred and violence against the larger group as a whole.

The 'victims' are (almost) never those who foment the violence, on any side. The victims are always simply members of the larger group who get to become bodycounts so that the aggressors can gain further political power. So no, I'm not blaming the victims. Netanyahu is not a 'victim'. George W Bush was not a 'victim'. The leaders of any terrorist group are rarely ever 'victims'. They all just create victims, both among their own peoples and among the peoples they scapegoat.

So no, I don't blame the Jewish people, I don't blame the American people, both of whom get to supply the 'victims' that result from the lethal games played by all of those who foment hatred.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #113)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:14 PM

115. It is still a HORRIBLE analogy by any measure.

American citizens have the power to vote for their representatives and as part of a democracy DO in fact bear some of the burden for the actions of their country.

A British citizen who happens to be Jewish, A French citizen who happens to be Jewish do not bear the responsibility for the actions of Israel.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #115)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:23 PM

117. Are you an American?

If you are, have you noticed how little your vote has as an affect on foreign policy? I do vote, and my vote didn't mean squat in terms of ending the horrific violence and war crimes committed by America's military under American Presidents.

So why do I 'share' any more 'burden' for things done by people for whom I didn't vote simply because some other bunch of yahoos voted an violent idiot into power than your random Jewish British citizen who likewise didn't vote Netanyahu into power?

Why do you want to blame ALL Americans, even the ones who voted against the violent idiots, for the actions of the violent idiots SOME Americans elected? How is that really any different than blaming any random Jewish person, whether Israeli or not, who likewise didn't vote in Netanyahu and the far righters?

I reject responsibility for actions for people I voted against such as George Bush, just as your British Jew gets to reject responsibility for Netanyahu. In his (or her) case, because he/she couldn't vote, and in my case because I voted AGAINST.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #117)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:28 PM

118. Yes and the answer is because we have a vote

However ineffectual that may be, it makes the difference. Your analogy is inappropriate and -I am sorry- but it provides a rationalization for anti-Semitic violence whether you intend it to or not.

As I said in my first response to you: I sm not buying what you're selling.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 10:45 AM

98. This thread has really revealed the rampant anti-semitism on DU.

 

I never realized how bad it was until reading this thread.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #98)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:22 AM

101. It's utterly disgusting. I can't believe these people are members of my beloved party.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #98)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 02:36 PM

127. It sure does - doesn't it?

Bonobo had another one last week that was epic too!

Here's the one from last week -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6137838

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:02 PM

110. poor baby

Poor, poor baby. No matter where she moves, however I should think she'll fare better and live more securely than the average Palestinian. At least she won't have to face an embargo and travel restrictions.

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Response to enid602 (Reply #110)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:11 PM

114. Yup, damn that woman!

If she weren't like, umm, a British citizen who is also Jewish, the Palestinians wouldn't have to like suffer!

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Response to enid602 (Reply #110)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 10:32 PM

138. WTF does a British actress of Jewish descent have to do with "average Palestinians"?

Are you really suggesting that, because of the Israeli's government's oppressive policies, Jews as a whole living in fear is perfectly justified?

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:16 PM

116. Of course RT.com has an agenda to portray Europe this way.

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 01:26 PM

123. Sorry, but she's wrong about it having nothing to do with Gaza or the West Bank.

European anti-Semitism isn't gangs of skinheads with neo-Nazi slogans painting graffiti on synagogues, anymore; it's a lot more likely to be Muslim immigrants than native Europeans, and a lot of them probably think they're avenging the Palestinians. They're obviously wrong, and what they're doing is a terrible thing that should by no means be countenanced; Jews in Britain, or in France, or in Germany, or wherever, are not responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, and should have as much expectation of being able to live in unmolested safety as any other British or French or German etc citizen. But one of the effects of Israel's bombing campaign in Gaza last year was to fuel anti-Semitism in Europe, unfortunately. Netanyahu tells the world "Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people". Israel is referred to in the press as "the Jewish state". It's in the name of the Jewish state that the occupation is conducted. Is it any wonder that some people are going to think "Israel"="Jews"? It's just as senseless and stupid as the mob violence directed against German-Americans in WWI, and not really much different in some ways (although there is a much uglier history of anti-Semitism as a backdrop, so it's understandable that people would view it in those terms).

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #123)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 06:59 PM

128. No, we still have plenty of the old-fashioned skinhead variety...

and indeed of bigots in suits, who probably won't e.g. paint swastikas on synagogues themselves, but help to create a climate where such actions can flourish.

Focusing on Muslim immigrants (under 5% of the British population) ignores such choice findings as that only half of UKIP voters would be prepared to vote for a Jewish political candidate; that drunk students in the Oxford University Conservative Association (a springboard for future Tory politicians) were disciplined by the university a couple of years ago for singing a song about Nazis killing lots of k**es to the tune of 'Jingle Bells'; and that the MP Aidan Burley and his friends organized a Nazi-themed stag night party while on a visit to France.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #128)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 09:20 PM

131. Good post. nt

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