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Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:37 PM

Bill Maher Blasts ‘American Sniper,’ Calls Chris Kyle A ‘Psychopath Patriot’

Bill Maher Blasts ‘American Sniper,’ Calls Chris Kyle A ‘Psychopath Patriot’

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/24/bill-maher-blasts-american-sniper-calls-chris-kyle-a-psychopath-patriot.html

On Friday’s episode of his HBO series Real Time with Bill Maher, the outspoken satirist pondered whether Kyle was a “hero or not,” and revealed he’s decidedly anti-American Sniper.

“Hurt Locker made $17 million because it was a little ambiguous, and thoughtful,” Maher said. “And this one was just, ‘American hero! He’s a psychopath patriot, and we love him.’”

Maher then proceeded to fire off a string of questionable quotes from Chris Kyle that he wrote in his autobiography of the same name—upon which the film is based:

“I hate the damn savages”—talking about the Iraqis—“and I’ve been fighting and I always will.”

“I love killing bad guys.”

“Even with the pain, I loved what I was doing.”

“Maybe war isn’t really fun, but I certainly was enjoying it.”

85 replies, 4435 views

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Reply Bill Maher Blasts ‘American Sniper,’ Calls Chris Kyle A ‘Psychopath Patriot’ (Original post)
Miles Archer Jan 2015 OP
RadiationTherapy Jan 2015 #1
rug Jan 2015 #7
Dawson Leery Jan 2015 #2
BlueStater Jan 2015 #3
yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #4
Kingofalldems Jan 2015 #43
yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #52
Demit Jan 2015 #59
Laura PourMeADrink Jan 2015 #71
sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #73
yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #83
sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #84
GummyBearz Jan 2015 #85
glasshouses Jan 2015 #5
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #12
glasshouses Jan 2015 #18
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #21
glasshouses Jan 2015 #25
arcane1 Jan 2015 #28
glasshouses Jan 2015 #33
arcane1 Jan 2015 #37
glasshouses Jan 2015 #44
arcane1 Jan 2015 #49
Skittles Jan 2015 #78
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #30
KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #38
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #47
KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #48
Skittles Jan 2015 #79
Laura PourMeADrink Jan 2015 #72
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #75
rhett o rick Jan 2015 #13
glasshouses Jan 2015 #23
rhett o rick Jan 2015 #29
glasshouses Jan 2015 #35
arcane1 Jan 2015 #40
rhett o rick Jan 2015 #68
Skittles Jan 2015 #80
arcane1 Jan 2015 #81
yourout Jan 2015 #6
Tom Ripley Jan 2015 #8
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #9
Initech Jan 2015 #10
TwilightGardener Jan 2015 #11
braddy Jan 2015 #17
TwilightGardener Jan 2015 #24
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #41
TwilightGardener Jan 2015 #50
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #57
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #26
braddy Jan 2015 #34
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #42
braddy Jan 2015 #46
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #56
braddy Jan 2015 #60
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #62
braddy Jan 2015 #63
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #64
braddy Jan 2015 #65
arcane1 Jan 2015 #31
DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #14
JonLP24 Jan 2015 #16
Miles Archer Jan 2015 #19
DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #20
Alittleliberal Jan 2015 #55
Demit Jan 2015 #61
rhett o rick Jan 2015 #15
Paladin Jan 2015 #22
Auggie Jan 2015 #27
Paladin Jan 2015 #67
Mike Nelson Jan 2015 #32
TwilightGardener Jan 2015 #36
KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #45
TwilightGardener Jan 2015 #54
KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #58
Dawson Leery Jan 2015 #39
Initech Jan 2015 #66
ND-Dem Jan 2015 #77
Hoyt Jan 2015 #51
Kingofalldems Jan 2015 #53
Reter Jan 2015 #69
MrMickeysMom Jan 2015 #74
MohRokTah Jan 2015 #70
ann--- Jan 2015 #76
KansDem Jan 2015 #82

Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:39 PM

1. "They're not like you and me; they're barely even human.

Now we sound the drums of war."

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Response to RadiationTherapy (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:52 PM

7. +1

 

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:41 PM

2. k/r

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:41 PM

3. Good.

Much less clumsily handled than Moore's criticism, I have to say.

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:43 PM

4. Its going to hit the 200 million mark on Sunday

 

Apparently America loves this movie. The negativity just helps those on the fence to run out and see it. Clint Eastwood could not thank the negative publicity soon enough. I am sure he is loving those numbers increase by the day.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:39 PM

43. What does that have to do with anything?

Should we be quiet?

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #43)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:55 PM

52. No keep the interest going. I am stunned how

 

much the movie made. It proves when Hollywood puts out a good movie, Americans will go see it. There hasn't been a movie that appeals to everyone in awhile. Finally there is one. No by all means keep talking.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:17 PM

59. Any time I see your kind of argument, that popular acclaim proves something is good

I think of the old billboard with the headline: 5 Million Flies Can't Be Wrong.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 01:17 AM

71. So Clint decided love was not the answer - money is?

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 01:23 AM

73. I'm sure Hitler's propaganda movies were also very successful.

The far right knuckledragging bigots from Faux's 'education' channel are guaranteed to make this piece of trash a success.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #73)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 09:11 AM

83. The percentage of movie goers are

 

Republican 35% democratic 30% and Independents 35 percent.



So no it is not just tea Partiers going to this movie however hard you wish it. It has been pretty even among political groups.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #83)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 09:58 AM

84. Like I said, Hitler's propaganda movies were probably extremely popular.

I'm really just trying to record, for future generations, not all Americans were on board with the delight in killing brown people that this era will be remembered for, historically.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #84)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 10:06 AM

85. Sadly

 

I can say my wife, who is more liberal than me, has been trying to get me to this this movie for weeks. I keep saying no and explaining why... now she plans to see it without me next week

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:46 PM

5. Watch the clip .The guy on Mahers left shut him down pretty quick

 



Maher shouldn't speak about things he knows nothing about.

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #5)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:19 PM

12. He clearly does know though

The thing I respect about Maher is his fairness in debate, he was about to say something but shut up quickly and said, "go ahead" to hear his points.

As far as his points, the movie is inaccurate in its portrayal of Chris Kyle. Of the many soldiers impacted psychologically from combat tours wouldn't write a book to express not a single shred of guilt. The defense of "savages" as he means only Al-Qaeda though the main antagonist is likely based on a Shia warload, who if anyone knows anything about Al-Qaeda(or ISIS) is they aren't Shia. Likely him terrorizing Sunnis led to tolerating their existence to protect them from Shia militias. Anyways, the whole claim is disputed by his own "kill all males you see" quote.

The guy to his left clearly knows much less based on his perception of the sanitized portrayal of Chris Kyle.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:32 PM

18. Did you read his book on why he said that and where it was said?

 

"kill all males you see" quote.

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:42 PM

21. No but countless sources cite it -- page 79 from his book

"Our ROEs when the kicked off were pretty simple: If you see anyone from about sixteen to sixty-five and they’re male, shoot ‘em. Kill every male you see. That wasn’t the official language, but that was the idea."

Then there is this
Many families were stuck there with few supplies because US soldiers would not allow them to leave, she said.

"Even during a so-called ceasefire, Fallujah was under siege with bombing, missiles and mortar attacks," she said.

"But the worst form of attack was the US snipers hiding on rooftops who kill hundreds of civilians as they tried to move about the city."

https://ceinquiry.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/chris-kyle-snipers/

What are the odds the most lethal US sniper was one of those snipers hiding on the roof?

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #21)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:55 PM

25. I could be wrong becuase it was a long while since I read the book but

 

I believe he said it during the 2nd battle of Fallujah when it had become a strong hold for insurgents .


Most civilians had already fled the city 90% to 95% , pretty much all that was left stayed to fight.

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:07 PM

28. Then maybe you shouldn't speak about things

 

And what everyone seems to forget is that these "insurgents" were defending their home from an invasion.

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #28)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:23 PM

33. So if I do find the exact quote in the book then you would agree

 

all this talk is just taking out of context ?

Also many in that strong hold were foreign fighters not Iraqis

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #33)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:28 PM

37. The context is invading a country that was never a threat and never attacked us.

 

I suppose those foreign fighters were NOT repelling an invasion? Hell, their presence was certainly more legitimate than ours!

If Russia invaded the U.S. and a few Canadians came over to fight them, would that discredit the resistance? Would that make the Canadians the bad guys?

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #37)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:43 PM

44. They were deployed there to fight a war by our government

 

If you are debating the war it self then I agree .
The U.S should have never invaded Iraq.

Your beef should be with the past administration and the current one now.

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:54 PM

49. I'm not fond of people who kill civilians and claim to enjoy it, either.

 

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #33)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 02:23 AM

78. omg you and your repuke talking points

 

WE HAVE HEARD THEM ALL BEFORE

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:10 PM

30. That actually verifies that he was there when all this indiscriminate killing by snipers was goingon

That is according to the official version from the US military which is likely a whitewash of the reality version.

An Iraqi journalist in the city reported seeing burned U.S. vehicles and bodies in the street, with more buried under the wreckage. He said two men trying to move a corpse were shot down by a sniper.

<snip>

`People are afraid of even looking out the window because of snipers,'' he said, asking that he not be named for his own safety. ``The Americans are shooting anything that moves.''

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/2004/U-S-Troops-Go-on-Offensive-in-Fallujah/id-f598510ce203e1e09f1c355a9fc49771

Actually the reported reasons why so many civilians fled is because of the mass executions which includes the snipers.

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:32 PM

38. "strong hold for insurgents" - that language right there pretty much gives you away. Hint:

 

irregulars can only be 'insurgents' if they were first satisfied with matters and subsequently became dissatisfied. The resistance in Fallujah were not insurgents, since they never agreed to nor welcomed the illegal invasion and occupation of their land by American imperialists. The resistance in Fallujah were Arab patriots defending their land. See also: George Washington and the British ca. 1776 or Ho Chi Minh and the French ca. 1945 or U.S. ca. 1954.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #38)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:49 PM

47. Also there is plenty of evidence snipers were indiscriminately picking off civilians

Evidence emerges that US military conducted mass executions in Fallujah

“Nearly every refugee from Fallujah I’ve interviewed has spoken of mass executions, tanks rolling over the wounded in the streets, bodies being thrown in the Euphrates by the military, and other atrocities.”

–Dahr Jamail (Interview with Charles Shaw, Newtopia, 2 December 2004)

https://ceinquiry.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/fallujah-executions/

The official number killed in Fallujah is 600, but the total number of civilian casualties is likely much higher. The official tally only reflects those deaths reported by the cities mosques and clinics. But American snipers and bombers have killed many people while they [were] inside their homes.
https://ceinquiry.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/chris-kyle-snipers/

He also puts himself there at the scene of a crime with a sniper rifle. Circumstantial evidence is very strong with this one.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #47)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:53 PM

48. The U.S. military used white phosphorous for anti-personnel operations in Fallujah II. That's

 

a major war crime and its architects -- civilian and military -- should be facing a firing squad.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #38)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 02:24 AM

79. NO XRAY GLASSES NEEDED TO SEE THROUGH THAT LANGUAGE

 

*JAYSUS*

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #12)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 01:19 AM

72. Bill Maher is actually a genius FYI

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #72)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 02:05 AM

75. It depends on the topic

This opinion actually doesn't require much thought nor is much more necessary as more thought just confirms more of what I & Bill Maher agree on when it comes to the embracing of a Chris Kyle movie.

Some things he is in Sean Hannity territorial or things like NSA & thin thread he seems to be very naive believing it is only used to check out terrorists & Obama is using it responsible, this is something that was revealed and showed unconstitutional spying and also performing hacks on civilian & foreign infrastructure and basically contradicted the government in when they claimed publicly and continue to talk down the concern for the program. He is incredibly naive when it comes to a subject like that. Like anyone else, he's right about some things, wrong on some things.

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #5)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:19 PM

13. Please elaborate. You know more than Bill Maher so help us out. nm

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:47 PM

23. For example the word savages

 

It was not used to describe all Iraqis in his book.

example

If I called a person a savage who just was convicted in the states of a brutal murder
does it mean all people in the United States are savages? I'll answer for you...no

A lot of these quotes are taken out of context.

Don't get me wrong I think this hero talk is ridiculous .
Just a sniper doing his job.

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:08 PM

29. "just doing his job" doesn't justify war crimes. nm

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:24 PM

35. Agree but I have seen no evidence of war crimes commited by him

 

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Response to glasshouses (Reply #35)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:32 PM

40. The war itself was a war crime. We used to execute people for it.

 

"To initiate a war of aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

http://www.economist.com/node/14205505

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 12:11 AM

68. Thank you. nm

 

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 02:25 AM

80. oh he's got THAT one covered!!!

 

the psycho sniper didn't start the war! See how easy that is?

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Response to Skittles (Reply #80)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 03:56 AM

81. Indeed!

 

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 04:47 PM

6. I have zero interest in seeing it....they would have to pay me to watch.

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:01 PM

8. Travis Bickle was a far more eloquent writer

 

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:02 PM

9. Bill Maher is telling the truth

Chris Kyle brings up all the red flag tell-tale signs of a sociopath.

He also is telling the truth regarding that many people will honor & defend the sociopath.

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:03 PM

10. The Psychopathic Patriots by the way added to night number one of Coachella.

Awesome Celtic punk rock band.

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:14 PM

11. I don't know that he was a psychopath. He did seem to have issues

with telling the truth. I would caution that the US military actually WANTS TO HEAR from its troops the sort of things that Kyle says. They are trained to kill for their country upon orders to do so, and none of us should try to make judgments on what the appropriate amount of enthusiasm is for the task unless we've been there.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #11)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:32 PM

17. Something bizarre, and Maher does this as well, is the idea that our top level snipers are

like Senator George McGovern or actor Jimmy Stewart (who became a 2 star General), just bombing cities from the air and killing masses of invisible people indiscriminately, even LBJ's questionable Silver Star was awarded when he accompanied a bombing mission, when in reality, top level snipers are the most discriminating killers in all the areas of combat, they kill after they have identified an individual as an enemy, they do not throw grenades into living rooms and come in with automatic fire, or fire artillery rounds into buildings, or bomb and strafe from the air.

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Response to braddy (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:52 PM

24. Yes. Anyone in the military is in the killing business, either directly or in a supportive role.

That is the essence of what they do. We break down and then re-program recruits to enter into frightening, fast-moving, unpredictable situations and follow legal orders to kill as necessary--not to stop and ponder the morality of it all. We instruct pilots and weapons officers to drop their bombs on targets, we expect crews in silos to be prepared to turn keys or enter launch codes that could end humanity. We can't complain and judge because some of them really take to it, or become exceptionally skilled (as Kyle was), or are not sufficiently emotionally bothered by the tasks we've given them.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:33 PM

41. It appears he was given plenty of unlawful orders and likely did a lot of the killing for sport

which violated their own RoE. I was in the military myself and from basic training on... disobeying a lawful order was against the rules but made a very clear distinction. Disobeying an unlawful order was made very clear A-OK. I've seen First Sergeants and Battalion Command Sergeant Majors punish supervisors for punishment overkill or anything outside the official books or regulations such as too many jumping jacks(calisthenic exercises have a very clear # for reps).

Disobeying orders is easier said than done but I could not see myself mindless blowing away civilians, I wouldn't even choose a combat MOS but that brings up those who were fooled into going into the military, well Chris Kyle re-enlisted and would have if his marriage wasn't on the rocks (based on his claims). I think it is fair to complain and I hold him & others in his chain of command responsible. I like the Generation Kill series where the Battalion Commander is constantly changing RoE on the fly, I can't speak for the Marines but while it is 100% likely someone who will do their own thing, those constant changes aren't coming from up-top, at-least officially. However, the military itself often punishes lower enlisted for war crimes and obtained murder convictions of soldiers killing Iraqis. This is why disobeying unlawful orders was taught as OK to us and you may be held responsible for those actions.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #41)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:54 PM

50. I can't comment to whether or not he received and acted on orders that he

shouldn't have, or acted improperly without orders. From what I've read and heard he seems to have been a bullshit artist and talked a lot of trash, padding his stories, etc.--an unreliable narrator, so whether or not he acted lawfully is a question for others, mostly the DoD and the Navy.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #50)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:08 PM

57. Though the indiscriminate killing of civilians is reported by countless different number of a people

his unofficial RoE claim of "kill all males" 16-65 is backed up by reports of Marine supervisors preventing male refugees 15-55 from fleeing Fallujah and telling them to stay inside their homes & windows. Everything mentioned backs up each other in how it relates to civilians being picked off.

You're entitled to take that position but I feel like I have enough information to condemn the actions of all involved whether technically legal or not. I also feel it more strongly confirms my belief he was a sociopath.

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Response to braddy (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:00 PM

26. There are many collaborated claims of this

LG The last, um, three or four days, uh we - my colleague and I - have been taking the injured out. There was an effectively a blockade thrown up around Fallujah and neighboring towns by the US Marines and Airborne forces and it's been impossible to get injured people out. On a couple of occasions they have allowed um-small convoys of ambulances to take people out. But, by and large, the only vehicles that have been able to get out are those that have snuck out by the back roads. In our case, we have been able to use our press accreditation to get some injured people out past the checkpoints.


MR Now, we have been hearing there is a cease-fire. Is there a cease-fire in effect?


LG No, quite the opposite. Effectively they are fighting. The US has snipers around the city from the West into the center, in houses all around the main streets and are picking off people on the streets, cars and ambulances.


MR Do you mean they are actually firing on ambulances?


LG Yeah, I mean, indeed. My colleague and I and some international volunteers from the United Kingdom and the US had to take over the responsibility for getting patients out of bomb damaged hospitals to one of the remaining make-shift hospitals, which is actually a converted doctors surgery effectively - because the ambulances were being shot at by the US forces. In fact, my colleague who is not very far away from me at the moment, was in one of the last functioning ambulances in Fallujah when he was sniped driving. I think they fired four or five rounds at it, just missing him, I think the ambulance was destroyed. When we left, that was this morning, that was the last ambulance - more or less - in Fallujah.

http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=04/04/15/5024786

Abu Muher, along with two other men from Fallujah who arrived in Baghdad last weekend, said American warplanes had dropped cluster bombs on a road behind their houses in Fallujah. One of the men was too afraid to permit his name to be used in this article. "My neighbors saw the bomblets," he said, "and I heard the horrible sound that only the cluster bombs make when they are dropped on us. My home was hit by their shrapnel. I was too afraid to leave my home to look for myself because of the snipers."

Abdul Aziz, the 15 year-old son of Abu Muher, stated, "I saw two of my neighbors shot by US snipers when I went outside one time. I also saw some of the small cluster bombs on the ground that were dropped by the warplanes of the Americans. Most times, we were too afraid even to look out of our windows."

<snip>

Mujahed stated that yesterday the US military broke the supposed ceasefire by staging an incursion into the Julan neighborhood as well as the Industrial sector of Fallujah. He added, "This is a disaster! Only a few people can get to the main hospital because the Americans are controlling it. Snipers are firing into Julan and killing so many civilians."

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/198

Several claims by people ranging from residents to Western humanitarian aid workers all telling the same story when it comes to claims of snipers indiscriminately killing civilians.



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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #26)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:23 PM

34. Even if someone shot at them, there is no reason to think it is our top, school trained snipers,

the best in the world. People call anyone with a gun that is shooting a "sniper', interestingly movies and people also call military snipers sharpshooters sometimes, which is a second rate shooter, something that I would have been ashamed to have classified as.

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Response to braddy (Reply #34)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:38 PM

42. The sniper that killed the most people happened to be there

when all this sniper killing was going on. They make distinctions between mortars, bombs, this or that but make it clear the worst of it was fear of being picked off. Many make the very same claim that people were afraid to look out their windows.

"Sharpshooter" has a different meaning in the military than it does to movies and people so the "second rate shooter" is semantics. They likely mean "expert" when using the word "sharpshooter".

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #42)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:47 PM

46. I know they are making that mistake about a soldier being a sharpshooter, which is why I described

it, as an expert I would have been embarrassed to be labeled with the second rate shooting classification and have to wear that award on my uniform, as far Kyle being there, so what? The world's top snipers are not just shooting anybody they see, they choose their targets individually, and rarely miss,

Remember, they are the "one shot, one kill" guys, not regular shooters.

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Response to braddy (Reply #46)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:02 PM

56. but dozens of collaborated claims from aid workers, journalists from US, Europe, and Iraq, andreside

say snipers in Fallujah were, indeed, shooting anybody they see. I certainly agree top snipers or snipers in general don't do that but certainly rogue elements & potential rogue elements do exist not just with snipers but with anybody. All these different people making the same claims, who were on the ground, would have to be a part of an organized conspiracy to accuse snipers of killing civilians. Fallujah was also a city were many rogue elements, not just snipers committed atrocities. We even used chemical weapons there.

“Everything to the west is weapons-free,” radioed Staff Sgt. Sam Mortimer of Seattle, Wash., which means the Marines can shoot whatever they see — it’s all considered hostile.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6450268/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/marines-let-loose-streets-fallujah/#.VMQxH8kXEtT

The military says it has received reports warning that insurgents will drop their weapons and mingle with refugees to avoid being killed or captured by advancing American troops.

As it believes many of Fallujah's men are guerrilla fighters, it has instructed U.S. troops to turn back all males aged 15 to 55.

"We assume they'll go home and just wait out the storm or find a place that's safe," one 1st Cavalry Division officer, who declined to be named, said Thursday.

Army Col. Michael Formica, who leads forces isolating Fallujah, admits the rule sounds "callous." But he insists it's is key to the mission's success.

"Tell them 'Stay in your houses, stay away from windows and stay off the roof and you'll live through Fallujah,'" Formica, of the 1st Cavalry Division's (search) 2nd Brigade, told his battalion commanders in a radio conference call Wednesday night

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/11/13/us-wont-let-men-flee-fallujah/

Bear with me when it comes to the Fox News link, they're likely telling the truth because this is embarrassing to their war propaganda at-the-time. However, it backs up every single claim & the fear of the windows thing.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #56)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:19 PM

60. There is no reason to think they are not confused about what a sniper is, especially

a world class sniper, in the Navy SEALs.

If you want indiscriminate killing, don't be looking at the world's most elite, specialized "one shot, one kill" snipers using $2000.00 scopes and special rifles, be looking at mortar men, machine gunners, artillery men, tank crews, gun ships, ship based weapons, pilots.

I did remember something about myself while reading another thread though, I was teaching artillery during the Vietnam war. City fighting is the worst, for everyone involved.

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Response to braddy (Reply #60)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:39 PM

62. They mention those things as well as the snipers

His own RoE claim "kill every male you see" is supported by the actions taken against those that fit that demographic, even including US humanitarian aid workers. Press credentials is why some were allowed to transport even patients past the checkpoints.

Plenty of witnesses make a distinction between bombs & snipers. One even says this: "Even during a so-called ceasefire, Fallujah was under siege with bombing, missiles and mortar attacks," she said.

"But the worst form of attack was the US snipers hiding on rooftops who kill hundreds of civilians as they tried to move about the city."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/16/1082055615693.html

It would have to either be very ignorant or pretend to believe snipers are a saint-like do no wrong types to not look at the most lethal sniper happened to be in the same place when many different people making the sniper claims, while also his claims, his supervisor claims backs up their claims just their's from the perspective of the real world consequences as a result from their actions. Also people picked off from hidden snipers clearly looks different than being randomly picked off by a mortar, especially a machine gun, a tank, a gun ship in Fallujah? Pilots? They already mention bombs in addition to the snipes.

I concede snipers generally are professionals with high standards with legitimate objectives, just like any other profession, it can be corrupted by corrupt people.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #62)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:44 PM

63. They mention soldiers shooting, and you can dig up all kinds of claims, but none of them

says anything about the SEAL sniper, how many innocent civilians are you claiming that he killed?

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Response to braddy (Reply #63)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 08:06 PM

64. The SEAL sniper says he was there when all these people make claims

of snipers killing people. The SEAL sniper claims "kill all males". "all males" were mentioned, many reported a fear of looking out windows when a battalion commander says to stay inside your homes & away from the windows. Common sense would apply. You're asking me to put a number? A % of the number claimed kills (though he also claims he killed civilians in New Orleans also though I'm not as quick to defend it as a lie, why would anybody in law enforcement want to confirm that carjacker story if it was true--especially if it was the NOPD who died some murdering & covering up of their own during Katrina. Also, they point to the coroner who is by the most incompetent & corrupt coroner in the US--he was point of emphasis in Frontline's report of the broken coroner system) though I'd have to independently verify to come up with a number which is impossible and I know from experience but this works more in the military's favor than it doesn't. I think if truth was here to settle the matter, I think the circumstances lead to conclusion that truth would tell us he did.

I've exhausted everything I could say, we're already bordering on willful ignorance & admit it is very circumstantial but stronger circumstantial evidence than say Aaron Hernandez's murder trial (who I also feel highly likely murdered Odin Lloyd). The only thing that would be rational is the most lethal US sniper was in the wrong place at-the-wrong time with a sniper rifle when civilians were being picked off by snipers. I'm done.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #64)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 08:09 PM

65. LOL, He was in that area of the war? So were 100s of thousands of people, and many

thousands of combatants, it was a city fighting mess.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #11)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:12 PM

31. I prefer to rephrase that as "They are trained to kill upon orders to do so"

 

Because none of the killings in the Iraq war were "for" this country.

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:22 PM

14. So we like Maher again? He seems to go in and out of favor here.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:30 PM

16. Me, personally

there is a lot he says that I disagree with. I'm also not a fan of his comedy, the opening routine & new rules are time wasters for the debate which is why I watch his program. However, when he is right, he's right.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:37 PM

19. I don't know about "we," but as the person who posted it...

...I did it completely out of indifference when it comes to Maher. It's a news item. Posting a news item is neither an automatic endorsement nor condemnation of the item's subject, unless of course you're just a one-dimensional asshole with no complexity of thought, and I am not.

Hope that cleared things up for you.

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Response to Miles Archer (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:40 PM

20. Not to anybody in particular

It's just interesting how people go in and out of favor here...

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #20)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:58 PM

55. Like any other person

He is sometimes wrong and sometimes right.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #20)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:31 PM

61. You mean we all don't have the same opinions?? >gasp<

I'm as dumbfounded as you!!!

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:24 PM

15. Arguing over whether Chris Kyle was a psychopath is ridiculous. We are responsible for

 

what our troops do. I am sure we hire and train psychopaths because it's the smart thing to do in a war. Is it moral? That'd be a great debate. We hire people that have no problem torturing people and we call them heroes. IMO these actions are immoral because we are not fighting a just war. We are the bad guys.

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 05:44 PM

22. Maher's comments on "American Sniper" were the saving grace of last night's show.

The rest of it was hijacked by some mouthy right-winger on the panel. Again.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #22)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:01 PM

27. Agree. Why does Maher have those RW hacks? I don't pay extra for HBO to hear bullshit.

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Response to Auggie (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 09:05 PM

67. I don't know, but it's happening more often than it used to. (nt)

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:19 PM

32. Sorry, Maher, but "Psychopath Patriot" should be used to describe...

...George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and others who lied to put Kyle there.

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Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:27 PM

36. Yup.

Edit to add: I believe Cheney and Rumsfeld are the true psychopaths of that administration, and the rest (Bush, Condi, Powell, etc.) got haplessly sucked into the vortex.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #36)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:46 PM

45. What about Wolfowitz, Feith and John Yoo? They weren't 'haplessly sucked into the vortex' - nt

 

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #45)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:56 PM

54. They played their roles. Malevolent/amoral, but couldn't have done what they did

without direction from above.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #54)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:10 PM

58. All due respect, 'amoral' is pretty much a proxy or synonym for 'psychopath'. It's funny,

 

when I think back on Wolfowitz' appearances before Congress and on TV, 'amoral' is the word that immediately springs to mind. Same goes for Yoo and Feith.

If I thought it would do anything to secure justice or closure for the surviving Iraqis, I'd write a history of the Iraq War, probably starting with Reagan's dispatch of Rumsfeld to Iraq in 1983 as his secret emissary to rebuild relations with Iraq and seek to use her to stop Iranian\Shi'a expansion of influence in the Gulf states by providing inteligence on Iranian troop dispositions during the Iran-Iraq War. Said history would certainly include the Project for a New American Century, the Iraq Study Group and Iraq Working Group.

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Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:32 PM

39. I agree. Though

it is fair to say Chris Kyle was a "useful idiot".
He was the perfect soldier for the Neo-Cons crimes. He believed everything he did was justified and never had a second though about killing people.

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Response to Mike Nelson (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 08:20 PM

66. Ted Nugent is the textbook definition of a psychopath patriot.

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Response to Initech (Reply #66)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 02:19 AM

77. not a patriot. nugent has always been about #1. summer soldier, sunshine patriot.

 

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:55 PM

51. A verse from a Vietnam era song

" A sad old soldier once told me a story
About a battlefield that he was on
He said a man should never fight for glory
He must know what is right and what is wrong"

Flying Burrito Brothers 1969

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:56 PM

53. Seems to be the new favorite movie of GOP chickenhawks.

They love wars---as long as they don't have to go.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #53)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 01:10 AM

69. McCain being the only exception to the rule

 

He loves war, and fought in it. None of the others like Cheney or Romney had any combat.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #53)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 01:55 AM

74. I imagine that's why it's plastered all over the movie headliner features...

They no doubt did a market study on the effect empty chair talkers have on chicken hawks.

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 01:12 AM

70. Bill Maher gets one right for once. eom

 

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 02:13 AM

76. I agree

 

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Response to Miles Archer (Original post)

Sun Jan 25, 2015, 07:06 AM

82. At 2'25", Maher says "That's the thing: we're in a country..."

...but he's interrupted by one of the guests.

What was he going to say? It was in answer to Henderson's comment about how Americans wanted to feel good about this war and how a majority of Americans don't think this war was worth fighting.

Was Maher going to talk about how we are the invaders? That we have no moral standing in this war? How can we invade a country based on lies--a country that had nothing to do with 9/1--and claim we have the moral upper-hand?

How would we Americans react to a country who invades us based on lies and then sends murderous snipers to pick us off one by one? Would we think they were "patriotic heroes?"

I would have liked to hear Maher's complete statement.

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