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Wed Jan 14, 2015, 03:59 PM

Texas gun rights group reenacts Paris massacre with ‘armed civilian’ — and everyone still dies

Raw Story just reported an interesting development in the Charlie Hebdo shooting, as it pertains to armed citizens:


Over the weekend, a Texas gun rights group repeatedly reenacted the Charlie Hebdo massacre in order to determine whether it could have been prevented if one of the editors or cartoonists had been armed, CBS DFW reports.

Members of the group, “The Truth About Guns,” recreated the Hebdo offices, then took turns playing the role of the “armed civilian” in the scenario.

No matter how the situation played out, though, one thing remained consistent — if the “armed civilian” confronted the attackers, he or she died. The only time the “armed civilian” survived was when the volunteer playing him ran away at the first sound of gunfire.


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/texas-gun-rights-group-reenacts-paris-massacre-with-armed-civilian-and-everyone-still-dies/

58 replies, 5468 views

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Reply Texas gun rights group reenacts Paris massacre with ‘armed civilian’ — and everyone still dies (Original post)
TheBlackAdder Jan 2015 OP
louis-t Jan 2015 #1
Electric Monk Jan 2015 #2
TheBlackAdder Jan 2015 #3
Electric Monk Jan 2015 #6
TheBlackAdder Jan 2015 #9
HappyMe Jan 2015 #8
Electric Monk Jan 2015 #36
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #45
Duckhunter935 Jan 2015 #10
uppityperson Jan 2015 #14
Electric Monk Jan 2015 #15
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2015 #19
ileus Jan 2015 #4
TheBlackAdder Jan 2015 #5
Hoyt Jan 2015 #28
hollowdweller Jan 2015 #7
tblue Jan 2015 #27
Brickbat Jan 2015 #11
NickB79 Jan 2015 #12
exboyfil Jan 2015 #29
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #46
progressoid Jan 2015 #13
hunter Jan 2015 #16
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #33
paleotn Jan 2015 #44
ManiacJoe Jan 2015 #17
NickB79 Jan 2015 #20
Lex Jan 2015 #18
ManiacJoe Jan 2015 #21
GGJohn Jan 2015 #22
Lex Jan 2015 #23
GGJohn Jan 2015 #25
Lex Jan 2015 #32
hunter Jan 2015 #42
Shamash Jan 2015 #31
frylock Jan 2015 #37
Shamash Jan 2015 #38
frylock Jan 2015 #39
Shamash Jan 2015 #41
Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #58
Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #52
frylock Jan 2015 #54
Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #55
frylock Jan 2015 #56
hunter Jan 2015 #47
Shamash Jan 2015 #48
hunter Jan 2015 #49
NickB79 Jan 2015 #50
NickB79 Jan 2015 #51
Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #53
hunter Jan 2015 #57
LiberalElite Jan 2015 #24
rppper Jan 2015 #26
lapfog_1 Jan 2015 #30
MisterP Jan 2015 #34
samsingh Jan 2015 #35
LiberalAndProud Jan 2015 #40
Boreal Jan 2015 #43

Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:07 PM

1. I wondered how long it would take

and also why I hadn't heard any of the usual 'armed society, polite society, if only..' bullshit theories.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:09 PM

2. This will likely get locked in General Discussion, re: SOP. Could you repost in one or both

 

of the gun discussion groups?

What can and cannot be posted in the General Discussion forum

The Statement of Purpose for the General Discussion forum says this:

Discuss politics, issues, and current events. Posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports are restricted in this forum. Conspiracy theories and disruptive meta-discussion are forbidden.


Gun Control & RKBA

Gun Control Reform Activism

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:12 PM

3. Since this regards a current and world event, it should remain for all to see. nt

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:18 PM

6. I don't disagree, but it's not up to me, it's up to the hosts of General Discussion

 

to use their discretion one way or the other.

I've reposted this in GC & RKBA already, here, btw.

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:20 PM

9. Thanks. I lack x-posting skills.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:19 PM

8. A Texas gun group is not a world event.

Posting this just seems like an excuse to slide in a gun post.

It's a bit shoddy as there are French citizens that post here. Glopping up this tragedy with a stupid Texas gun group is no damn good.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 06:55 PM

36. Did you happen to notice what EarlG posted on DU's home page today?

 



http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017238188
52 recs and 31 replies so far.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:43 AM

45. "A Texas gun group is not a world event."

 

Tell them that.

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:21 PM

10. I think this meets

 

The big news exception.

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 05:10 PM

14. Skinner's pinned thread at top of forum, seems like this would be ok as is about high profile event

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025307978
GUNS
News stories (and related content) from reputable mainstream sources about efforts to strengthen or weaken gun control legislation in any jurisdiction in the United States, national news stories (and related content) from reputable mainstream sources about high-profile gun crimes, and viral political content from social media or blogs that would likely be of interest to a large majority of DU members are permitted under normal circumstances.

Local stories about gun crime and "gun porn" threads showing pictures of guns or discussing the merits of various firearms are not permitted under normal circumstances and should be posted in the Gun Control and RKBA Group.

Open discussion of guns is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered across all newsmedia.


Up to Host consensus but it seems ok to me.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 05:16 PM

15. It is now up on the main CBS website as well, so I agree that it's not just local news

 

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:29 PM

19. Thanks for cross-posting n/t

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:12 PM

4. Wonder if they run the test armed with AR/AKs? Or just crappy CC pistols.

Remember your pistol is only for use until you get to your rifle.

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Response to ileus (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:15 PM

5. I wonder if it was set up to favor the 'citizen' and the scenarios still failed their outcome. nt

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Response to ileus (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 11:50 PM

28. Typical view of one heavily invested in gunz and so called "self-defense" training.

Just accept the findings. Not much doubt in my mind gun toting cowboys would have gotten killed like the Muslim policrman, and may have exacerbated things.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:19 PM

7. Yeah but 12 people getting killed in France by 2 guys with guns is a national tragedy.

 


12 people getting killed in the US by a crazy person with a gun is a regular occurrance.

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Response to hollowdweller (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 11:44 PM

27. That's why I



I don't know what else to do.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 04:24 PM

11. Raw Story did not report it. They quoted and rewrote a story that CBS DFW did.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 05:05 PM

12. Two against one, AK's against pistols

Yeah, I don't see the outcome changing all that much. At best, you could theoretically kill one of the attackers before the other kills you, but he's still armed with an AK sufficient to single-handedly kill the hostages.

Though removing one of the attackers could possibly translate into fewer hostages killed later on, such as those that died in the grocery store or the police officer killed on the street, who was apparently armed but had no time to draw his weapon.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 12:25 AM

29. Or you can have Rep. Louis Gohmert

wishing the editor had a M-4.

"I wish to God she had an M-4 in her office locked up — so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands," Gohmert said on "Fox News Sunday" with Chris Wallace.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/louie-gohmert-gun-control-sandy-hook-shooting-newtown-ct-republicans-2012-12#ixzz3OrQnzjKt

By the way are those volunteers still patrolling outside schools?

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:46 AM

46. Right. Should'a had a cannon.

 

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 05:08 PM

13. What they needed was MOAR guns!

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 05:40 PM

16. Once the guns come out, everything is FUBAR.

Frequently the "good" guys will still be fumbling with their weapons as the "bad" guys shoot them.

Who do you shoot first? Oh yeah, the guy with the gun. Works both ways.

I've been in a few rough situations, a couple of situations with guns, and not once would any have turned out better if I'd pulled out a gun. Guns generally turn bad situations into sad hopeless situations.

This rule applies to any cop, soldier, or armed citizen. The reason gun-humpers trumpet the exceptions to this rule is because they are so rare.

The stories where some gun loving asshole dad shoots a family member, his daughter's boyfriend, harmless intruders, or himself, are much more common than any "justice" by gun.

Action movies are not reality.

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Response to hunter (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 02:35 PM

33. I wish everyone could read your post

Gunners have been sold action movies which play nonstop in their heads. And yet they refuse to acknowledge how many times a gun escalated the situation. How many bar fights ended up with someone being shot? How many drunken parties? How many fights with a girlfriend or spouse? We've heard of road rage incidents; we've heard of guys whose wife has left them, instead of perhaps drinking themselves comatose, they reach for a gun. Kids don't have to deal with their problems if they have a gun. And they fail to acknowledge that most crimes in the US committed with a gun, it was stolen from one of the many fools with a gun. The cycle perpetuates itself.

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Response to hunter (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 09:33 PM

44. I completely agree. (nt)

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:13 PM

17. No surprise in the outcome.

When looking at being out numbered and rifles against handguns, the defender is all but guaranteed to die.

The correct question the article should be asking is how many of the Bad Guys were removed from the fight while the non-shooting Good Guys escaped?

When you are going to die whether you resist or not, the correct action is to resist in the hope that others will live.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:17 PM

20. United Airlines Flight 93 comes to mind

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:17 PM

18. It very very seldom happens in real life that an armed civilian stops anything.

More harm is done by these jacklegs carrying around a loaded gun. Or having one in their purse at the grocery store.



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Response to Lex (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:24 PM

21. It is seldom that an armed civilian is available to stop any crime.

Due to the small percentage of the population being armed.

Surely you just forgot to support your claim that "More harm is done by these jacklegs carrying around a loaded gun".

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Response to Lex (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:26 PM

22. Try googling defensive gun uses on youtube,

plenty of videos of actual defensive shootings by citizens, so it's hardly a very very seldom phenomenon.

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Response to GGJohn (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:43 PM

23. "Plenty of videos" isn't how statistics work. nt

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Response to Lex (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 11:13 PM

25. You said very very seldom,

and I provided info that calls into question your statement.

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Response to GGJohn (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 01:26 PM

32. Not by saying "plenty of videos" you didn't.

I'm sure there are "plenty of videos" showing people giving interviews after winning the million dollar Lotto, but statistically it doesn't happen very often.

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Response to GGJohn (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 09:26 PM

42. The suicides are my favorites.

Another gun owner bites the dust, defending himself against his own demons.



Before anyone alerts, I've lost family and friends to this and seen blood and brains on the carpet.

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Response to Lex (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 01:08 PM

31. Pardon me?

 

According to the CDC, civilians act in self-defense with firearms about 800 times each day. Which as it turns out is more frequently than criminals commit violent crimes with them.

But everyone knows the CDC is in the pocket of the big bad gun industry, so those figures are clearly bogus...

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Response to Shamash (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:01 PM

37. link?

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Response to frylock (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:20 PM

38. link!

 

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=15

"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010)."

Using the lowest number that meets the bold-faced criteria, it adds up to about 820 defensive gun uses per day. It is a long report and worth reading in its entirety and downloading for later reference, regardless of your position on guns.

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Response to Shamash (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:29 PM

39. are these DGUs self-reported? what constitutes a DGU?

also, "500,000 to more than 3 million" is a pretty large discrepancy.

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Response to frylock (Reply #39)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 08:31 PM

41. Ask the CDC

 

As to your subject line, you'd have to ask the CDC, but presumably they and the expert panel commissioned to write the report knew what they were doing.

As to the comment, the CDC did question both the high and low end estimates, and again, if their overall conclusion was "at least as many DGU's as violent criminal gun uses", then you either have to accept that statement as credible, or place yourself in the position of saying the CDC cannot do credible research on gun violence.

My point is that even if you took the absolute lowest estimate from the CDC report, that would still be over 250 DGU's per day, which is far from the "very very seldom" statement in the comment I originally replied to.

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Response to Shamash (Reply #41)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 07:56 PM

58. Wow, did you read this? .....

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262.html#.VLmkNYFOKrU

Talks all about the CDC, who did not endorse the surveys, they just mentioned them because there really is no scientific data, only the DUG Kleck fake surveys.

Politico has the take down at the link.

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Response to frylock (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:35 PM

52. The "estimate" is gun clap trap, even the article says that.

" The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret BECAUSE RESPONDENTS WERE NOT SPECIFICALLY ASKED ABOUT DEFENSIVE GUN USE."

It is a right wing NRA fed myth about the epidemic of daily gun use for self defence.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:46 PM

54. oh, i agree, and that's why i asked what constitutes a DGU..

considering that they are self-reported, I would imagine many reports are not at all unlike what you might find in the Penthouse Forum. How many folks reported a DGU because they heard a noise outside their home, and ran out with their gun to chase a raccoon out of the garbage?

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Response to frylock (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:48 PM

55. Since the question was never asked in any detail in the "surveys" who is to know if that counts?

250 a day, minimum, uses of firearms unholstered and pointed in genuine actual objective self defence every day is on its face ludicrous.

Ask firearm owning civilians how often they used their 300 million firearms this:

"How many times in the last year did you use a firearm to prevent a crime or violence to yourself or others that could not have been prevented without a firearm"?

Survey says.......a few random cases.

Like .00001 times per annum per gun owned.

No link.

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Response to Fred Sanders (Reply #55)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:50 PM

56. yep

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Response to Shamash (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:58 PM

47. I don't think that means what you think that means.

If I pull out a gun to "defend" myself and get shot in the process, that means I'm a gunshot victim who was using a gun defensively.

It's difficult to measure intentions in authentic surveys, but it's easy to count corpses and emergency room admissions for gunshot wounds.

The CDC has some excellent tools...

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html

I doubt anyone knows how many times a day some crazy old man "defending" his property or himself threatens his neighbors with guns.

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Response to hunter (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:42 PM

48. I'm not sure what you're saying

 

But it sounds a lot like "CDC statements on an issue are only valid if they agree with my point of view". If a multi-disciplinary outside panel of experts with full access to every bit of info the CDC has says "X" and you decide that "X" can't be true because accepting it as true would require you to alter your opinions on the issue, I'm afraid I'll still have to side with the CDC opinion.

If the CDC is willing to state that "guns are used defensively at least this often", presumably they said it because after examining all the data they considered credible, that statement was worth making. Look at it from the other side. If the CDC had said that "guns are hardly ever used in self-defense, and when they are it always ends badly for the person trying to do so" and I was making desperately feeble excuses to explain how the CDC got it all wrong, what do you think your response would be?

Then compare that to the level of credibility I am giving you for doing that exact thing.

If the conclusions contradict your beliefs, the problem does not lie with the conclusions. Sometimes what you believe is wrong. Even if it is important to you. And you can either dig in(link), or change. From personal experience, the latter is not easy.

If Moon rocks, video, audio, spacecraft and eyewitness testimony won't convince you that we put men on the Moon, then you are certainly free to remain unconvinced. But the reasons you present for being unconvinced are unlikely to sway anyone who doesn't have a tinfoil hat of their own. Same thing applies here.

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Response to Shamash (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:21 PM

49. Gary Kleck, et al...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck

Older now, but still loves guns...



Kleck’s recent research has found that higher general gun ownership rates reduce homicide rates, probably because the violence-reducing effects of guns among noncriminal victims and prospective victims outweigh the violence-increasing effects of guns among criminals. Other research found that adding more officers to a city’s police force will not produce increased deterrence of crime. Another recent study found that victims who resist rape attempts, including those who resist forcibly, are more likely to avoid completion of the rape and no more likely to suffer additional injuries than victims who do not resist.

http://criminology.fsu.edu/faculty-and-staff/college-faculty/gary-kleck



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Response to hunter (Reply #49)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:31 PM

50. Except the CDC's estimates don't rely solely on his work

His estimates are the upper limit quoted, while other researchers estimates are the middle to lower limits.

In fact, the poster you replied to intentionally used the lower limit that Kleck had no impact on to further add credence to his/her argument.

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Response to hunter (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:33 PM

51. And if someone pulls a gun, the other guy runs, and no one ends up shot

That's also a defensive gun use.

Counting corpses and ER visits would completely exclude those individuals.

FYI, the situation where I used a gun in self-defense years ago was also a no-shots-fired one.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:42 PM

53. The best thing to do is run, but gun people think the gun will always save them...the scenario of

the reenactment of the Hebdo massacre where only the guy who ran survived puts that myth to bed also.

Killing machines favor the attacker, not the surprised defender with a gun.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 07:18 PM

57. So, what's your story?

I've got experience as the unarmed guy being the "reasonable" person, and as the guy running away.

Put that gun away, dude.

Did you know that if your girlfriend handcuffs a paranoid pimp to a urinal after she gives him a little groin action in the restroom, then his gun is hers?

I was the guy outside the restroom door claiming it was "rough sex" to very drunk people who had to pee as he was screaming in rage and pain. I think his gun is safely buried under the muck out in the bay somewhere. I have no knowledge of what happened to him after we left. I suspect the police were not called.

Nevertheless, ex-girlfriend is a woman I've avoided for decades now, even when we've crossed paths at conferences. Both of us look the other way, like it never happened, like I never jumped out of her moving car and slid and rolled down the streets of Berkeley, collecting the scars I still carry, both physical and mental.

Most of my gun stories are much more sordid than that, even the amusing stories.

But here's a another gun story: I was teaching science in Los Angeles when I glanced out the window and two cops and the vice principal were opening a locker. One of the kids in my class yelled "Hey! That's my locker!!!" jumped out the window, and the cops grabbed him. Yes, he had a gun in his locker, and that's the last I saw of the kid. I was angry with the vice principal, she should have known the kid could see his locker from my classroom.



He wasn't the worst of my students. My worst students were the utterly empty ones, those who wouldn't even bother to do homework or write their names on a quiz, and their parents didn't care either.

My family is Wild West. One of my grandmas was insane. When it was clear my grandma had completely lost her mind my mom took away all of grandma's guns, those she could find. Even so, my grandma managed to fight off the police and paramedics for a few hours after she'd been judged a danger to herself and others.

Later as my mom was clearing out grandma's house she found more guns. Fortunately my hoarder grandma had either forgotten where she'd hid her remaining guns, or had decided she didn't want to kill anyone or die that day, taking enough satisfaction in biting, hitting, kicking, and cussing at the cops and paramedics, honoring the spirit of the retired shipyard welder and World War II party girl she was.







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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 10:44 PM

24. YES THAT'S THE TRUTH ABOUT GUNS nt

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 11:38 PM

26. The outcome doesn't surprise me...

I'm looking at this "test" through a different viewpoint. The number of potential heroes with a ccw isn't going to be high, but the percentage of a carrier with a true background in firearms and tactics will be even lower (IE: military/law enforcement/security). Tactics are where the hero will lose 99% of the time.

A 7.62 round does so much damage to a body at a much longer range than any pistol could. Even if a carrier is able to get off a few shots and get themselves out of harms way, they'll never get any kind of Dirty Harry/Charles Bronson kill shot on the shooters...despite whatever wet dream a hero gun owner might have otherwise.

Tacticians keep their heads down and defend. Backup will come. You don't play hero when your hopelessly outgunned.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 12:40 AM

30. In addition to armed trained security guards (2)

the office should have had a dead man trap entrance... a vestibule large enough for one person with two doors, either with bullet proof glass or simply cameras... and you get buzzed in through both doors by a security guard who is behind both doors. metal detector if possible.

That, plus a one way escape route or a safe room.

wouldn't prevent all of the deaths, but would have reduced the body count.

OTOH, the method of attack might have changed to suicide car bomb... which would then entail car barricades and a street setback for the office building... more money... not practical for a city like Paris unless you have unlimited resources.

Given that they were already the target of a terrorist attack and were listed as "marked for death" by various extremist groups, this would have been an expensive but prudent defense, but was likely out of reach for a very small publication.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 03:29 PM

34. can we stop listening to Suzanna Hupp now? Walter Mitty had a better Realitatsprinzip

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 06:47 PM

35. interesting - i wonder if even more people would have died

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 07:49 PM

40. It's interesting that they didn't arm all the civilians.

Wouldn't that be the ideal scenario?

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Original post)

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 09:29 PM

43. How did they do that?

 

I haven't seen any video or diagrams of what happened in the offices, only the scenes on the street. In fact, I've been curious about how things went down inside. Is there a link that shows it?

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