a friend who has travelled the Middle East more than anyone I know wrote this response on FB

[Douglas Carpenter]

Facebook to this article: Hi Peter. Would you care to comment on this article?

These crimes have everything to do with Islam by Paul Sheehan

Date January 12, 2015

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/these-crimes-have-everything-to-do-with-islam-20150111-12lxmn.html

I might add that I met this friend more than twenty years ago when we were both working in Al Khobar, Saudi Arabia. He worked and lived a number of places in the Middle East and travelled extensively throughout the region - more than anyone else I know. He is from Australia but is a graduate of the American University of Paris and also lived in France for a number of years. He is a bit of an amateur expert on ancient Middle Eastern and Islamic architecture and art. Since the issue is sometimes raised, my friend happens to be gay and has always been quite openly so wherever he has been. In fact he is the sort of person who probably is going to be openly gay whether he wants to or not.

Anyway here is his response:

Inflammatory clickbait, I'm afraid, from a media organization that once tried to rise above Rupert Murdoch and his populist ilk, but now increasingly travels alongside them on the low road - perhaps out of desperation for "page views" to sell its online ads than anything else. It was published to be inflammatory and incite endless comment.

The writer has clearly not visited most of the countries he writes about. I have, several times each, over decades, and can attest that they are the safest countries I have travelled in, and that their citizens could not have been kinder to me. I'd travel to any of them again in a minute. How could anyone in their right mind consider countries such as Iran and Turkey, for example, "unsafe" if they had not been there? Picking out the errors in this article is like shooting stoned fish in a barrel - too easy to be worth my time. This is one reason I travel and chose to live overseas for extended periods - to form opinions based on lived experiences, rather than play games of armchair politics or pontificate on subjects I only know from reading dyspeptic or perfervid articles like this. One example why I'd never trust the Australian media to accurately portray any event in the Middle East was the reporting of the murder of the Australian nurse in December 1996, on the Saudi Arabian compound I lived on, in the week before I was about to fly back to Melbourne for Christmas. I was there, I knew all the facts surrounding the case, all the people involved, and the way the media portrayed the British nurse who was eventually charged with the murder as some kind of a "victim" of the Saudi Arabia legal system was nothing short of scandalous. It was a routine homicide carried out by an amateur, and conviction was based on an incredible wealth of evidence - which many of us saw first hand, including the victim's scratches all over the murderer's arms. The principal detective did a very thorough and professional job, and included photographic evidence. I learnt never to underestimate just how racist our media can be.

On the subject of jihad, it is useful to remember that the West goes on its jihads too, and Australia is never far behind when the call to arms is made. George Bush's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, for example, were framed as missions with religious overtones, smiting and smoking out "evildoers" while spreading liberation in its wake. Countries that refuse to bow to Western hegemony are branded "Axis of Evil". Australia's rush to support the US invasion of Vietnam against the godless Communists was framed with similarly religious soliloquies in order to help manufacture consent. A few decades earlier, the Nazis actually created a new Aryan religion in order to support and justify their wars. Before that, of course, it was the West's mission to colonize lands far beyond its shores and convert the coloured subjects it found there - saving them from themselves.

It's also useful to remember that of the more than 100 million war deaths in the 20th century, less than 2 percent came at the hands of Muslim-majority nations. Most of those dead (the less than 2 percent) came in wars where non-Muslim nations played a significant role—such as the Iran/Iraq War, where the United States and other European countries such as France, Germany and Sweden aided the aggressor Iraq...and the Afghan Civil War, where the Soviet Union was a major military force, the Reagan administration later coaxing the Taliban genie out of the bottle to combat them, showering them with weapons and training. But the author of the article you've shared would imagine that the West had its hands clean in those particular wars. He knows nothing of history or reality, or prefers not to know.

On a final note, the Muslim people I know are just lovely people, full of fun and just want to get on with living a peaceful and productive life. They prefer to see Christians as fellow "People of the Book", meaning we share far more common heritage and values than any imagined differences. We are far more alike in terms of heritage than the West may be with India, China, or African nations, for example. But all this is smoke and mirrors. Fear and division aids those who wish to control us if we exist in a state of ignorance. I'm far more concerned about the immense destruction of overfishing and uncontrolled trawling of our oceans, or the irreversible destruction of the world's old-growth forests, for example, than I am of anything the media would have me scared of...

[Egnever]

1. Sounds like an interesting fellow

I like his response a lot. Thanks for posting it.

[malaise]

2. Thankfully our planet still has rational human beings

Excellent response. Thanks for this

[Douglas Carpenter]

51. thanx. My friend Peter is pretty smart:

[merrily]

3. I have only a purely personal anecdote about "people of the Book:"

Last edited Tue Jan 13, 2015, 06:33 AM - Edit history (2)

My husband, son (then 6) and I were on a bus tour of the Greek mainland with a couple from Egypt, whose infant cried a lot, and a small group of tourists from Israel, who were older than the four parents. Often, the Israelis stayed on the bus, taking turns rocking the infant. This allowed the Egyptian couple (mostly the mom) to leave the air conditioned bus to look around at the tourist attractions, without exposing the infant to the heat and sun. They also took the baby sometimes while the mother was on the bus, just to give her a break.

At one point, I volunteered to join in relieving the mother while the bus was rolling and noted that the infant was hot, not simply colicky, or motion sick, as I had originally assumed. Being a semi-pro worrier, I had brought a bottle of baby aspirin, just in case. I gave most of it to the Egyptian mom with what I hope were appropriate instructions. The next morning, she hugged me gratefully, she and I both fully realizing that I might be in trouble if my son got sick during the trip; and we began talking like old friends.

At the next stop, one of the Israeli men took me aside to tell me that he had seen the Egyptian mom and I hugging. He added that, while Arabs hated Israelis, they hated Christians even more. As to Jews, the teaching was to leave them alone, whenever possible, because of the blood link through Abraham. However, it was their duty to kill Christians. (He did not specify Muslim Arabs, but I assume he did not mean either Jewish Arabs or Christian Arabs.)

Did I ask him for footnotes, or a link? No. Did I believe him? Certainly not as to the woman who had just hugged me and me, but I am sure that could true for some non-Christian Arabs somewhere.

Until then, as I watched the Israelis relieving the Egyptian mom, I dared hope that solutions were possible, even if they consisted vaguely in my mind of putting all Arabs, all Israelis and all Westerners of all ages on the same, impossibly large bus.

Now, I know that I don't know even imaginary answers. I hope someone does have answers and is willing to share them with the rest of the world

As for the Book itself, many Jews think the NT is wrong; many Christians think the OT was superseded in great part, with nothing really counting doctrinally except what was "brought forward" into the NT; and ,amu Muslims think that Jews and Christians got it (the book) wrong. So, I have to wonder how unifying it is.

ETA: There was no indication whatever of my religious beliefs, if any, during that trip but I assume he assumed I was Christian.

[MADem]

28. There are many, many Christian Arabs in the world.

Lebanon is loaded with 'em, so is Syria. Some of the most well-known Palestinians are Christian--Arafat's wife was one. In USA, one well known Arab Christian was HELEN THOMAS. Some of the most striking Christian religious sites of antiquity are found in Egypt.

Whoever told you that Arabs hate Christians more than Israelis was pulling your leg.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/middleeast101/a/christians-middleeast.htm

[merrily]

37. I am very aware that the world contains many Christian Arabs (though far fewer in Syria

than in Lebanon, as a percentage of total population and certainly nowhere near as many Christians as Muslims). Indeed Egyptian Christians (Copts) claim to be the original Christians.

And of course, I, like so many people, do know Helen Thomas was of Christian Arab heritage, as was Danny Thomas (no relation to Helen, supposedly), General Abizaid, the guy on MASH, along with many others. I have met immigrants from many Arab nations and I have visited some Arab nations (and Israel) and, in general. I do live in this world. And in Boston, in particular. which has a history of Christian Arabs.

Population numbers, however, were not the point at all. Moreover, the man who spoke to me did he say that Muslims were actually killing Christians--though that did happen in the Middle East centuries ago. And there is certainly fear among Christians in those nations, even today, along with claims of discrimination. I cannot assess the validity of either, but I can assess that at least some of those who claim fear and discrimination believe what they are saying. However, this man was talking about what he claimed to be the religious teaching, not actual killings.

I would bet everything I own that that man believed what he was saying to me, ergo, not pulling my leg. However, I thought my post indicated that I did not agree with what he believed, with the exception of maybe a few Muslims "somewhere."

[MADem]

39. My point is simply that the guy who spoke with you was speaking for himself, not

the bulk of us who have lived in the Middle East and don't share that warped idea he offered. Just because he believed it doesn't make it true.

My impression of your post, which you've clarified, is that you took his POV as valid.

[merrily]

40. I never said his believing it made it true nor would anyone I know say such a silly thing.

I very clearly said his believing it meant he was not pulling my leg, as your post claimed he was.

As far as living in the Middle East, he lived there all his life, but that doesn't make what he said about Muslim teachings true, just as your living in the Middle East wouldn't make what you say about Muslim religious teaching true.

My impression of your post, which you've clarified, is that you took his POV as valid.

Then you misread both that post and the totality of my posts.

[KamaAina]

44. Even Saddam Hussein's mouthpiece, Tariq Aziz, was Christian.

Chaldean Christian, to be precise.

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. actually much of the early secular leadership in Syria and Iraq and in the earlier days of the PLO

were Christian - I think that particular Israeli man she met may have believe what he was saying - but he was simply misinformed.

[MADem]

48. Yes. It's a common misconception to think that the region is monolithic when it

comes to religion. That is probably because the power in the area rests largely with Muslims, and sharia does enter into the way that laws are written and justice is dispensed.

[LittleGirl]

4. I really admire that guy

and I agree with everything he wrote. I am living abroad again and I have nothing but nice things to say about the muslim people I have encountered. I don't think the women should cover up like they do but if that's their choice, so be it.

I'd like to shake that guy's hand that wrote that. I bet he's a charming fella.

[Douglas Carpenter]

42. he is pretty smart even when travelling in places like remote parts of Iran or Syria (before the war

of course) - He made it a point to use local buses and transport and eat in all the purely local places where tourist rarely go and just meet ordinary people. He would end up having dinner houses of people in remote villages as he would make his way across these various countries.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Paul Sheehan's a nasty old dinosaur...

For any DUer who thinks what he wrote about Australia's Muslim community is anything but the crap it is, here's what he had to say about the murder of Trayvon Martin:

'The people to be blamed for murder are the people who pull the trigger or push the blade. And the people who have pulled the trigger in most murders of African-Americans are African-Americans.

To vent about this waste is to invite condemnation for racial insensitivity, as if the slaughter of young black Americans is a subject about which we have to be discreet, blaming poverty, unless the person who pulls the trigger is a white or Hispanic, and only then it is right to rage against injustice.'

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/injustice-festers-far-beyond-the-zimmerman-case-20130717-2q4ix.html

By contrast I wish yr friend was a columnist for Fairfax rather than idiots like Sheehan...

[Douglas Carpenter]

43. well we have a whole network full of people like him and worse, much worse

[branford]

6. Your friend states that most individuals in Muslim-majority countries

prefer to see Christians as fellow "People of the Book." I'm curious what he believes these same people's opinions are about Jews, the third major Abrahamic religion. The history of Jews in the region is often not very pleasant, and it predates the founding of Israel by centuries.

He discusses how the countries like Iran and Turkey are "safe." Unsurprisingly, many non or barely democratic regimes are often very safe and efficient, particularly when noncompliance for minor or even political infractions can be quite severe with no recourse to anything resembling independent courts or due process. It is also not uncommon for highly skilled foreign workers to be treated better than many natives.

He also fails to mention other important human rights issues like democracy and self-determination, as well as freedom of speech, assembly and religion. How about the wealth disparity and misogyny in his preferred locale of Saudi Arabia.

The comment about the how the Europeans created Nazism to justify wars and colonize was slightly ironic. Virtually all of the region supported the Nazis in WWII and the people spilled quite a lot of their own blood, both historically and in modern times, in territorial and religious wars.

I have no doubt that your friend met and interacted with many good, kind and decent people in his travels. However, anecdotes are not history, his experiences are not necessarily indicative of others, and other than his comments about "safety," the piece is far more just a very left-wing critique of western history than an actual commentary on current Islamic political culture, Arab or otherwise. It also fails to actually address the points in The Age article about the violent radicalization of young Muslin men.

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. I know my friend spent amount of time with a Jewish family in Damascus who sold the kind of Middle

Eastern art objects he was interested in. Most Arab people I talked to went out of their way to say that their quarrel was with Israel not with Jews. Although considering the tensions that exist between numerous religious and ethnic groups as well as tribes - I'm sure that there is anti-Jewish feeling that is not strictly anti-Israeli. But Pre-Zionism - relations between Arabs (whether Christian or Muslim) and Jews in most of the Middle East were similar to relations between Muslims and Christians. Most of the time they got along - but there were periodic problems as we know happens in ethno-religiously divided societies.

It would not be accurate to say that virtually the whole region supported Hitler during World War II - But it would be accurate to say that in many places in the colonial world both Muslim and non-Muslim where there was strong anti-British and anti-French sentiment rooted in anti-colonialism there was some Naïve sympathy for the Axis who were fighting their enemies' enemy.

I don't think anybody denies the lack of political democracy in the Middle East. What we unfortunately do see is Western claims of seeking to spread democracy in the Middle East tend to ring hallow.

Some things have improved over the years. The first time I was ever in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia in 1986 there was virtually no media whatsoever and few local people had almost any knowledge of the outside world. With the explosion of cable and satellite TV - there is a lot more awareness and you will even in Saudi Arabia see in mainstream local newspapers criticism of the government and even of some of the religious authorities. It is certainly muffled criticism by western standards - but the fact that it exist at all is an enormous step forward. I have personally watched Schindler's List on television in Saudi Arabia. That certainly would not have been possible a few decades ago. Although most of the young Saudi's I knew preferred shows like the Simpsons, South Park and American Dad.

Another area where some improvement has occurred is we now see close to 50% or perhaps more of University students including for positions doctors or academics are now women. Again, I would not claim that it is Finland. Of course not. But change like this is not going to happen over night. And hostility to Arab/Islamic world is not going to make things better.

[branford]

8. My primary critique about your friend's post

is that it really didn't address the article to which he supposedly responded. I do not doubt that he befriended kind and generous people.

The article in The Age was about violent radicalization of young Muslims, particularly in Australia. Your friend's post, however, is really just a vague non-defense of the region generally by discussing how much of western history is also very bad. Both the Arab and Islamic and Western world have much that it should not be proud about, but it's not a competition as to who is "worse." It also doesn't refute or explain the concerns in the original article. Everything your friend states could be true and the article could still basically be accurate.

[bemildred]

12. He says the articles premise: that it has something to do with Islam, is horseshit.

He is not arguing that there is no violence or misrule, merely that it's not because of their religion or culture. And he offers a host of counter-examples.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. A quote from the OP about his perception of LGBT life in a nation that flogs it's gay citizens:

"Lots and lots and lots of openly gay foreigners as openly gay as anyone in Greenwich Village or the Castro District - and a benign acceptance of local people in homosexual relationships."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025631308

Benign Acceptance:
Gay Saudi Arabian man sentenced to three years and 450 lashes for meeting men via Twitter
"

A Saudi Arabian man has been sentenced to three years in jail and 450 lashes after he was caught using Twitter to arrange dates with other men.

The 24-year-old man who has not been named, was given his sentence after the court in Medina, Saudi Arabia, found him guilty of “promoting the vice and practice of homosexuality.”

According to a report in the daily Arabic newspaper Al-Watan, the man was arrested following an entrapment ploy by the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (CPVPV)."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gay-saudi-arabian-man-sentenced-to-three-years-and-450-lashes-for-meeting-men-via-twitter-9628204.html

And not just LGBT people, right now in the Kingdom Raif Badawi liberal blogger who criticized the clerics is recovering from the 50 lashes he got from the whip in public on Friday. This coming Friday, he gets 50 more, each week 50 lashes for 20 weeks. That's the reality....Badawi lies right now, beaten and bloodied. Right now, even as we read this, he readies himself for another 50 lashes.

"Saudi blogger receives first 50 lashes of sentence for 'insulting Islam' "
A Saudi blogger convicted of insulting Islam was brought after Friday prayers to a public square in the port city of Jeddah and flogged 50 times before hundreds of spectators, a witness to the lashing said.

The witness said Raif Badawi’s feet and hands were shackled during the flogging but his face was visible. He remained silent and did not cry out, said the witness, who spoke to the Associated Press on condition of anonymity fearing government reprisal.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/saudi-blogger-first-lashes-raif-badawi

Benign acceptance!

[Douglas Carpenter]

10. it is a contradictory situation - I pointed that out several times. I am NOT a supporter

of the Saudi system. But yes there were lots of gay foreigners who were as openly gays as anywhere in the western world. And in spite of everything throughout the Middle East homosexual and bisexual relations have a benign acceptance even among locals provided the local either is married with children or plans to get married and have children,- But acceptance of a gay identity for local people is something you would only find in the most westernized elite circles. They seem to be willing to accept gay identity in foreigners most of the time - but not locals - It's hard to explain but everyone who has spent time in the Middle East is quite familiar with this contradictory way of thinking.

Here is an article from the Atlantic called "Kingdom in the Closet" which explains it about as well as anyone can :

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/

[Bluenorthwest]

60. It's not that I don't understand Doug. I am well traveled, well educated. What I take issue with is

the absurd hyperbole. Claims that LGBT people in the Kingdom are as open as in the Castro are not accurate, not truthful, they are not helpful and they make me wonder about the agenda at play. In that thread, you claimed at first you just lived there openly for 20 years. Others kept asking you about locals and you were not forthcoming. But you did take the time to equate gay life there to Greenwich Village.
It's just not the Castro. It's a repressive country that does in fact physically punish gay people and others.
It would be very good to talk about the truth of it all, but 'it's the same as San Francisco' is not the truth. Also not the truth is 'all the fascist bigotry does not matter because I met nice people'. That's a cheap evasion.
When people are being flogged with the last 50 times a week for 20 weeks in the public square, it is not acceptable to claim that place is just like San Francisco. It is an act of great disrespect to those who suffer such punishments. That's what I think. That man being whipped for 20 Fridays is a Muslim. I stand with that Muslim, not with the Muslim with the whip nor those who order him to impose the lash. I am fully capable of doing so.
Are you?

[Douglas Carpenter]

62. of course it is not the Castro - but yes most gay foreigners I knew when I was in the Middle East

for almost 25 years were openly gay and as openly gay as most gay people I knew in San Francisco were openly gay. I never equated gay life their to gay life in Greenwich Village. I simply said that most foreign gay people who live and work there are as open about being gay as someone who lives in Greenwich Village. That is reality. Certainly most western gay men I knew who worked in the Middle East would tell you that they had more fun than they ever did in the Castro or Greenwich Village or anywhere else in the West. That is reality. I bet YOU would have more fun there than you ever did in the West. I am not going to change the story and start telling lies about it. It is also reality as I said that many times most locals cannot accept a gay identity - but homosexual and bisexual relations are common knowledge among everyone - the catch being that it is acceptable (quietly - but everyone knows) if the person is either married with children or intends to get married and have children. Yes it true that randomly people are at times arrested and punished for the same thing. It is a very contradictory situation that the same thing that 99% is overlooked 1% it suddenly becomes a serious offense. I know that. But you seem to want me to make up lies and describe my 25 years in the Middle East with some cartoon caricature that it is not. I'm going to keep telling the truth no matter how unpopular the truth is.

[JaneyVee]

14. Not all countries are the same. I went to Lebanon few years back...

Huge gay community, incredible nightlife, clubs, restaurants, bars. Same with Morocco, nicest people I've ever met

[Douglas Carpenter]

16. yes that is very much the case - I was a bit younger at the time - but I certainly remember being in

some pretty wild nightclubs and discos in the wee hours of the morning. They actually exist in Saudi too but only on British and American compounds that are either military contractors like McDonald Douglas or British Aerospace or connected to the oil industry. Other places in the Middle East like Lebanon or Morocco are just as you say.

[JaneyVee]

33. Lebanon does have anti-gay laws on the books but...

They rarely enforce them. Although the cab driver did warn my gay friend/co'worker about public displays of affection, to keep it indoors. But this seemed to be the norm even amongst the hetero crowd with their expensive suits and high heeled beautiful women.

[Bluenorthwest]

61. Why would you assume I don't know that?

I had been to about 20 countries before I could drive a car.
You know, earlier in the week some poster attacked me as knowing 'nothing of religions' and when I countered with some background information and challenged the poster to test my knowledge, that poster attacked me as claiming to 'know it all'. So I am fairly sick of being told basic things like 'not all countries are the same'. That's insulting, arrogant and presumptuous.

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. 25 mg per day of Zoloft. It has done wonders for me. At least talk with your shrink about it.

[uppityperson]

69. oh, come on. please?

[Douglas Carpenter]

70. it really has helped. I'm not joking about that at all.

[riderinthestorm]

72. You still have time to self-delete this post.

[Douglas Carpenter]

73. why would I want to do that? I'm just trying be helpful. Hay, I am diagnosed with a mild form

of high function Autism sometimes called Asperger's Syndrome - although the guidelines of the American Psychiatric Association have now changed it to Autism Spectrum Disorder Level 1. I don't know what the poster I am responding to has - but clearly they have some kind of condition. I am only trying to offer some practical advice purely out of concern. I'm sure their life would be happier if they established the right medical response to their situation. Forgive me for trying to show a little compassion.

[Jamastiene]

76. Are you claiming to be a doctor now too?

What a fucking insulting post to BNW. You owe him an apology for that kind of rudeness.

Your anecdotal stories are just that, stories. How you sleep at night knowing that you brush off the beatings gay people have to endure when caught, I will never understand. How you can be "ok" with people tolerating gay people as long as they are going to get married is bullshit. That is still homophobia. You brush it off like it is nothing. I just don't buy your story, at all.

[Douglas Carpenter]

77. I was being insulting?. I was only explaining what life is really like in the Middle East

or at least parts of it. I wasn't saying I agree with it. Lately I have been wondering if I hit the browser wrong and ended up on Pamela Gellars's website. I lived openly gay in the Middle East for 25 years. I know something about it. Most of the bigots here do not. What is so bad about learning a little bit about the world? Besides 25 mgs of Zoloft helped me a lot. But after a week of right-wing lunacy and bigotry here on DU I may have to talk to my shrink about increasing my dose. Either way I'm going to keep telling the truth no matter how unpopular the truth is.

[MADem]

30. In Iran, under the Shah, there was a very vibrant Jewish community.

They're all gone now, most of them--fled to Israel and USA, most of them, but I lived near them, interacted with them (and Armenians as well), used to patronize Jewish and Armenian businesses in Iran, most notably during Ramadan. I didn't hang around with the super-religious people, but the average Persian Muslim bought off on the "People of the Book" attitude-- including Jews.

Of course, that was pre-Revolution, and a lot of those folks are, well, dead. Gone. "Had their attitudes corrected." Time flies.

I wouldn't view Iran as "safe" for Jews these days. The few families that hang on do so because their Persian roots are deep, deep, deep and they are reluctant to lose their heritage.

[bemildred]

11. Well said. nt

[JonLP24]

13. The article would have credibility if the word "Wahabbi" was included

in there somewhere.

The fact he traveled to middle east more than anyone he knows is irrelevant considering a convenient word was left out.

[Coventina]

15. Keep in mind that your friend is a man. I have female friends who travel in those countries

and they cannot go anywhere alone without being followed, harassed, and threatened - even when dressed very modestly.

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. no doubt that happens there - but I do know many, many western woman who lived worked and traveled

in the Middle East and very much enjoyed themselves. I believe JaneyVee's post above speaks of her positive experience in at least two Middle Eastern countries.

[Coventina]

19. How much did they do alone? I'd be curious.

Because most of my friends were academics, traveling alone, and their experiences were not good.

One in particular spent 5 weeks in Morocco, supposedly liberal, and was in fear every day she was there.
And she was there on an exchange program she volunteered for, because she wanted the experience to carry back to dispel those very stereotypes that she got slapped in the face with.

She came back very discouraged and disillusioned.

My friends' anecdotal evidence is just as valid as yours.

[Douglas Carpenter]

25. I agree your friends anecdotal evidence is just as valid as mine. I don't doubt the experience one

but - different people do have different experiences about just about everywhere. Since Paris and France are in the news now - we have many people talking about what a wonderful country and city and what wonderful people. I'm sure you also know people who have been to France and who think the French are insufferable assholes.

[Coventina]

58. But that's an apples to oranges comparison. I'd happily travel alone to France and risk rudeness

over my poor French.

Probably the only predominately Islamic countries I'd travel to alone would be Turkey and Indonesia, and maybe Jordan.

I certainly wouldn't go to "liberal" UAE where a female Norwegian tourist was arrested because she reported being raped!!!!

[Douglas Carpenter]

59. I did hear about that incident in the UAE - But given that I lived there for two and half years - I

know that there are thousands of single western women driving their own cars - living in their own apartments and going about on their own or with friends in the UAE. There are bad things that happen everywhere but are rare. It was a terrible event for sure.

[oberliner]

18. Screw the "People of the Book"

How do they feel about atheists?

How do they feel about people who think their religion (along with the Christian religion and the Jewish religion and the <insert name of religion here> religion) is not only based on BS fairy tales but also contains harmful garbage towards women, gays, and non-believers?

People have a right, a responsibility, and a duty to aggressively criticize ideologies and philosophies of all kinds - most of all, the ones that purport to be based on divine wisdom from the cloud people.

[Fumesucker]

20. That was my reaction also

People of the Book is all well and good but I do not consider myself one of them.

The religious privilege seems to drip from so many things that involve the Middle East.

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. They exist - but it is pretty rare - of course it would be just as rare in the Philippines

I suppose when it comes to westerners - most Middle Eastern people can accept it from them. As far as how people think about atheist among fellow Middle Easterners I suppose it would depend on where and what educational level and what social class. Yeah, I have met atheist among Middle Eastern people - but they are fairly quiet about it. But I'm thinking of a few I met when I was in Saudi. In cosmopolitan Beirut or Damascus before the war - I'm sure there were plenty of atheist who were pretty upfront about it.

[oberliner]

22. Thanks for sharing that

Maybe there can be some atheist missionaries who travel around the world spreading their ideas to "People of the Book" and people of other books.

Serious question: Do you think such atheists would be able to attempt to spread their ideas safely in those regions?

[Douglas Carpenter]

23. in Saudi Arabia no. Although even in Saudi a Western person carefully suggesting atheist ideas might

be able to pull it off. Because they do show a fair amount favoritism to highly educated westerners. I think that in elite, educated and cosmopolitan circles it will find some acceptance.

interestingly just last week or so - I came upon this strange article:

The rise of atheism in Saudi Arabia, where talking about atheism is illegal

snip:

The evidence is anecdotal, but persistent.

“I know at least six atheists who confirmed that to me,” said Fahad AlFahad, 31, a marketing consultant and human rights activist. “Six or seven years ago, I wouldn’t even have heard one person say that. Not even a best friend would confess that to me.”

A Saudi journalist in Riyadh has observed the same trend.

“The idea of being irreligious and even atheist is spreading because of the contradiction between what Islamists say and what they do,” he said.

The perception that atheism is no longer a taboo subject — at least two Gulf-produced television talk shows recently discussed it — may explain why the government has made talk of atheism a terrorist offense. The March 7 decree from the Ministry of Interior prohibited, among other things, “calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion on which this country is based.”

The number of people willing to admit to friends to being atheist or to declare themselves atheist online, usually under aliases, is certainly not big enough to be a movement or threaten the government. A 2012 poll by WIN-Gallup International of about 500 Saudis found that 5 percent described themselves as “convinced atheist.” This was well below the global average of 13 percent.

But the greater willingness to privately admit to being atheist reflects a general disillusionment with religion and what one Saudi called “a growing notion” that religion is being misused by authorities to control the population. This disillusionment is seen in a number of ways, ranging from ignoring clerical pronouncements to challenging and even mocking religious leaders on social media.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/belief/atheism-saudi-arabia-illegal

[oberliner]

24. Saudi Arabia is pretty intense

People talk about North Korea as being this dark and mysterious place that the outside world doesn't have a clue about, but I would argue that Saudi Arabia is similarly closed-off an inaccessible to most of us. And there are some seriously disturbing things going on there. Although, since they have oil money I guess they don't have the whole starving-to-death issue to worry about so at least there is that.

[Douglas Carpenter]

26. since I did spend about twenty years there - I would agree that it is pretty intense in a lot of way

but I wouldn't say it is North Korea. They do have Hagen Daz ice cream and Starbucks and Applebee's after all. Although I'm glad I'm not there anymore. But I did enjoy most of my time there.

[oberliner]

27. How much freedom to travel around did you have?

Were you mostly confined to one particular area?

[Douglas Carpenter]

31. actually once you have a residence which usually takes about a month after a person arrives they can

travel pretty much anywhere in the Kingdom except Mecca and Medina if one is not a Muslim. One does have to a get travel letter though - usually through one's company's human resources department. It is usually just a formality. I would have to say that when it comes to leaving the country - I'm speaking specifically about Saudi Arabia - the UAE was of course far more open - But in Saudi Arabia in most cases an employers holds your passport and you have to get an exit visa. That is also usually a formality - but is some cases in can take a couple of weeks - Other cases one can get it right away. Now my brother who corporate lawyer who works for a Kuwaiti billionaire living in Khobar - He has complete freedom of travel - with his own passport in his permanent possession with a special visa that allows him to enter and leave the country at will and travel domestically pretty anywhere he wants within the Kingdom.

Of course when I was in the UAE there was none of that nonsense. I could enter an leave the country at will and travel domestically anywhere within the Emirates.

[oberliner]

32. Fascinating

Thanks for sharing that info.

I knew someone who had family living on one of those American compound type places and working for a Saudi company. The sense I got from that person was that they pretty much stayed in and around said compound (I might have the details wrong).

I know the UAE is a completely different situation in every respect.

[MADem]

34. Not good. I mean, one could sugar-coat it for you, but that wouldn't be truthful.

You can be forgiven anything, save lack of belief in a lot of venues in that region. Sure, you might find a person or two who sees your point, but I wouldn't recommend boasting about a lack of faith in a crowd. Bad for your health. And yes, I'm being serious. I'd advise faking it.

No shooting the messenger, now! Aim first!!!

[oberliner]

35. Right - bad for your health indeed

That right there is a problem.

[MADem]

36. I'll be very honest with you--I don't see it changing in the near term.

The fundamentalist POV is very strong in that neighborhood. I just don't see a lot of movement likely in the near term--maybe in a generation or two....

[brooklynite]

29. Nice piece which has nothing to do with the cited article...

This points out the many people who practice Islam are friendly, responsible people. Great. But the people who carried out the Charlie Hedbo killings or the Boko Haram massacre are ALSO practicing Islam, and nobody gets to say, other than subjectively, which group is "misguided".

[JNelson6563]

38. Glad it's not just me.

As I was reading his commentary a few things stuck out. The first was Is it just me or does he digress? The second was: Would one not of the book, an atheist like me, be treated as kindly in the places he's travelled to?

Of course I am but a lowly woman so there's that too.

To me this just looks like believer rushing to the defense of fellow believers, trying to distract from the fact that religion provides the tools to achieve barbarous acts by manipulating vulnerable people.

Julie

[Martin Eden]

41. Big K&R!!!

That kind of wisdom is in woefully short supply in the USA.

[Douglas Carpenter]

46. thanx

[UglyGreed]

47. Brave post

K&R

[Douglas Carpenter]

50. well thanx. I guess it is pretty sad when one had to be brave to oppose bigotry on a liberal

Forum

[UglyGreed]

55. Yes it is

[Douglas Carpenter]

57. lately I have been wondering if I hit the browser wrong and ended up on Pamela Gellars's website

[Douglas Carpenter]

49. kik

[Douglas Carpenter]

52. kik

[Douglas Carpenter]

53. maybe y

[Skittles]

54. I am guessing he could move way more freely than a woman could

[Douglas Carpenter]

56. as would be the case throughout the developing world

[Skittles]

63. I would not sing the praises of a place like that

just how long does it take to DEVELOP?

[Douglas Carpenter]

64. I'm sure traveling in Central America or the Philippines or any number of other places

are going to be challenging for a lot of people and all the more so for a single woman. However If you see above in Post # 14 JaneyVee describes having a great time in Lebanon and Morocco. I have spent half of my life living in the "third world" or developing world and would not give it up for anything. There are many, many women who have done the same as well. But, I certainly agree that a woman faces more challenges.

[Skittles]

65. just curious, was she alone?

[Douglas Carpenter]

66. to be honest, I don't know. But, I would agree that it is more challenging for a woman to travel

alone whether they are in the Middle East or the Philippines or many other places. I suspect even in the western world a woman is more apt to be hassled than a man. We do live in a world where on average women faces more predatory difficulties. No reasonable person can deny that.

[Skittles]

67. I bet she wasn't

I like to travel places where I feel comfortable being out and about without an escort

[Albertoo]

71. I disagree with your friend. Islam caused the Charlie Hebdo deaths.

Before you howl at me, two points upfront:
- yes, most muslims are perfectly nice, just like any other people.
- and I too have some experience, including 8 years in a muslim region.

But, as the late regretted Christopher Hitchens said, religion poisons everything.

Your friend writes "On a final note, the Muslim people I know are just lovely people, full of fun and just want to get on with living a peaceful and productive life. They prefer to see Christians as fellow "People of the Book"'

Yes, and what does 'The Book' say about people like Charlie Hebdo?
""Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him." Leviticus 24:14

The only difference being we have a secular Constitution, mandating separation of Church and State. Another crucial point your friend fails to spot is that muslims call westerners "Christians". To muslims, people must be people of the Book, or they count for nothing. Because the Quran says so.

And while it's true the great majority of muslims are just plain nice folks like anyone, a solid minority strongly believes the Quran's text is sacred, perfect and cannot be amended. And what does that perfect book say?

Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment. Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time: They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).
— Quran 33:57–61

If, after that text, people can still claim there is no link between Islam and the Charlie Hebdo killings, then I am the archbishop of Canterbury.

[Douglas Carpenter]

74. I don't think either my friend or I would deny that he attackers did not have to some degree a

religious motivation. But that is besides the point.

[Albertoo]

75. With all due respect, it is key

We agree that muslims are everyday normal people, as nice or bad as anybody.

But to the non-negligible minority that takes religion extremely seriously,

religion gives extra reason to do harm.

In short, your friend skipped the point that Islam makes good people behave badly.

[mstinamotorcity2]

78. We see how

it is media soaked here in our Country, shouldn't be surprised that most individuals get it wrong.