Piano stores closing across US as fewer children taking up instrument, some deterred by cost

[Omaha Steve]

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/287315981.html

Article by: DAVID PITT , Associated Press Updated: January 2, 2015 - 7:55 AM

BETTENDORF, Iowa — When Jim Foster opened his piano store 30 years ago, he had 10 competitors selling just pianos.

When he closed Foster Family Music in late December, not one was still selling pianos in the Quad-Cities area of Iowa and Illinois.

"We did try hard to find a buyer," Foster said. There were no takers.

Stores dedicated to selling pianos like Foster's are dwindling across the country as fewer people take up the instrument and those who do often opt for a less expensive electronic keyboard or a used piano. Some blame computers and others note the high cost of new pianos, but what's clear is that a long-term decline in sales has accelerated.

FULL story at link. ALSO see this OP from earlier this morning: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017237411

[kcr]

1. This is a shame

We had a piano and I took lessons growing up, but we don't have one now. It isn't just cost, but the hassle of finding a room for one and moving it. People don't stay in one place as much anymore and pianos are expensive to move. My boys took lessons on an electronic keyboard.

[Johonny]

9. My brother and Mom both have one

No one plays either one of them. We all learned as a kid but I haven't touched one in years. Everyone plays guitar these days. They are much more portable for living apartment to apartment.

[kcr]

113. I'd love to have one, too

The piano my parents had was a centerpiece in the living room and I have fond memories of it. It features prominently in a lot of pictures. I wish they could have kept it and I would love to have it.

[LWolf]

99. Yes.

I left my piano behind when my marriage ended in 2001 for those very reasons; I had no way to move it and no place to put it in the little place I moved into. A few years later I bought my grandson a keyboard.

If I had the space and $$, though, I'd have a piano.

[TheBlackAdder]

105. Most electronic pianos and digital synths can nearly replicate a multitude of instruments.

For under $1,000 you can by a halfway decent electronic piano, which has weighted keys and controls to adjust the volume and other effects or sounds. Besides being able to move it, it doesn't require periodic tuning like my sister's baby grand.

My son is saving to purchase the latest Korg Kronos, which has 9 different sound processors, two dedicated for piano sounds. He has developed beyond his Ensoniq and Korg R2. He also has a MIDI keytar to perform on stage.

http://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/kronos2/

[kcr]

112. The one we got is pretty nice

Not top of the line but it does sound nice. But not as pretty

[tridim]

2. The only reason I don't own a piano is because tuning is prohibitively expensive.

And importantly, not DIY.

It would be nice to be rich and be able to afford a piano, but instead I have a beautiful weighted MIDI controller that I use almost exclusively.

[Trillo]

59. I wonder how many people here even know what a weighted MIDI controller is.

It seems like this story is more about the obsolescence of older technology as newer technology replaces it.

[KatyMan]

60. have to agree, although

I would love to have a piano; we just don't have the room for it. My weighted MIDI controller, hooked up to my computer, with a grand piano VST soundwise probably beats any piano we could afford.

[MineralMan]

63. The other day, I was in a thrift store near my home,

and bought a Yamaha keyboard that had weighted proportional keys and full MIDI in and out. $19. I replaced my old non-weighted key Yamaha that I paid $100 for a few years ago with it. I had the stand and the optional sustain pedal that came with the other one, and both worked find with the new one.

Now I feel like I have a decent keyboard to play on. Yamaha's default Grand Piano voice is quite nice. I play it through excellent headphones, so I don't disturb anyone, and bought the headphones at a thrift store, too, for a paltry amount of money.

While I'd love to have a decent piano in my house, I'm not motivated to buy one, move it, and get it tuned.

[Liberal_in_LA]

136. i wonder how piano tuners are faring

[Recursion]

150. There are pitchfinding gizmos that do it automatically now

Though for special needs (early music alternate intonations, etc.) people still use a human. Back when I taught music theory one of my students got interested in it so I taught myself the basics, retaught it to him, and he ended up apprenticing to a tuner I knew. Last I heard he had a job doing it for the Peabody.

[BubbaFett]

3. Maybe they will replace it with

a dollar store, cash for gold, title loan, branch bank, or convenience store.

Anyone else remember when towns had USEFUL retail?

[yeoman6987]

6. Oh that supply and demand always gets in the way

[BubbaFett]

8. Yeah

people don't need shoe stores, butchers, bakers, and candle makers anymore I guess.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

27. people don't need USEFUL retail like candle makers anymore I guess

Yeah, well, this thing called "electricity" came along, and it sort of took over.

People have "photo telephones" and all sorts of crazy things now:

[BubbaFett]

34. derp

Rub-a-dub-dub,
Three men in a tub,
And who do you think they were?
The butcher, the baker,
The candlestick-maker,
They all sailed out to sea,
'Twas enough to make a man stare.


Never waste an opportunity to be a wiseacre I imagine, tho.

[adirondacker]

141. There are still some that prefer supporting artisans, but it's usually the money class.

I'm someone who dabbled in finewoodworking for several years when I could afford to take classes and afford the material. Unfortunately, many can't afford the price it demands. A simple shaker hall table takes a couple hundred dollars in material and 80+ hours of build time. I figured I'd have to fetch at least a thousand dollars to make money. The woodworkers I trained under commanded and fetched high prices for their pieces .$20-30,000 for a dresser, $3-5000 for a table chair for instance. The average layperson will find it difficult to afford and justify the amount. Then again, antiques, especially from the federal period, are quite affordable due to the mid century modern craze and some of the craftsmanship is astounding.

I'm someone who has a keen appreciation for everything artisan (a bit of family history involved) and would love for people to turn their backs on the plastic mombastic craptastic shit that's dealt in box stores.

Here's hoping there is a wakeup and monumental shift!

[Orrex]

4. Sounds like a classic case of pianist envy.

[benz380]

35. Ba-dum! n/t

[KittyWampus]

5. Many, many people have pianos to give away for FREE. Adopting used piano is saving it:

For More Pianos, Last Note Is Thud in the Dump
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/arts/music/for-more-pianos-last-note-is-thud-in-the-dump.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

snip
The value of used pianos, especially uprights, has plummeted in recent years. So instead of selling them to a neighbor, donating them to a church or just passing them along to a relative, owners are far more likely to discard them, technicians, movers and dealers say. Piano movers are making regular runs to the dump, becoming adept at dismantling instruments, selling parts to artists, even burning them for firewood.

snip

With thousands of moving parts, pianos are expensive to repair, requiring long hours of labor by skilled technicians whose numbers are diminishing. Excellent digital pianos and portable keyboards can cost as little as several hundred dollars. Low-end imported pianos have improved remarkably in quality and can be had for under $3,000.

snip

Used pianos abound on Web sites like eBay, driving prices down and making it difficult to sell Grandma’s old upright. With moving costs of several hundred dollars, even giving a piano away can be expensive. Abandonment often becomes the only option, especially for heirs dealing with a relative’s property.

Many pianos are also dying of old age. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, before radio and recordings, pianos were the main source of music, even entertainment, in the home. They were a middle-class must-have.

So from 1900 to 1930, the golden age of piano making, American factories churned out millions of them. Nearly 365,000 were sold at the peak, in 1910, according to the National Piano Manufacturers Association. (In 2011, 41,000 were sold, along with 120,000 digital pianos and 1.1 million keyboards, according to Music Trades magazine.)

The average life span rarely exceeds 80 years, piano technicians say. That’s a lot of pianos now reaching the end of the line.

Piano dealers also blame other changes in society for a lack of demand in the used-piano market: cuts in music education in schools, competition for practice time from other pursuits, a drop in spending on home furnishings with the fall of the housing market.

snip

[hfojvt]

62. over twenty years ago

I got a used electronic keyboard for $100. Never got any joy out of playing it though - the sound was too flat somehow.

Of course, I don't play the piano much any more either. I used to play an hour a day just for fun. Now I cannot tear away from the computer. My piano is out of tune, for one thing, and for another, it is more frustrating because I cannot play the way I used to play, or the way I remember being able to play.

[sdfernando]

86. If you don't use it you lose it

The only way you will play like you used to is to practice.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

95. Getting rid of a piano was almost impossible

I had to get rid of one when I built my parents an apartment in my house, finding people who said they wanted it was easy. Finding someone who both wanted it and could actually move it was practically impossible.

Some snake-handling church finally showed up with a sufficiently large van and half a dozen guys. The contractor suggested cutting it up for the wood to build a bar.

[Maeve]

109. We got rid of ours last year

The only kid who learned to play didn't want it and it was just too big to keep.

"Free to a good home" notice sent out thru a local folk music group finally worked. It was about 100 years old and still had a great tone. It was finally taken by a lady as a gift for a friend (she paid for the moving, @$100, IIRC). Got a lovely 'thank you' call a week later.

I have seen a great desk transformation for old uprights on the internet...

[belzabubba333]

7. people like me who would normally have to buy a piano would rather buy a MIDI keyboard

that way i have more instruments at my disposal

[pscot]

10. And electronic pianos are cheaper

portable, can be played with headphones and give you touch and tone nearly equal to conventional pianos. That said, the best sounding piano I ever owned was an ancient Eilert upright grand that cost me all of $200.

[Hoyt]

16. Exactly. You can do so much more with today's keyboards, and that's all kids see in popular music.

I think music is very important for kids, but I don't think it has to be traditional, acoustic instruments, necessarily.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

97. One of my young relatives was given a TR-808

A retiring neighbor moving away and to a condo somewhere sat down with her and her brother for about half an hour, showed her how to use it, told her rappers still use them to this day and she hasn't put it down since. No musical interest before that but she got electric drums for Christmas and bought herself an electric base.

I don't see her having taken an interest in a piano.

[Pooka Fey]

11. I decided to buy a Yamaha weighted action digital because I live in an apartment

If I ever move to a house, and if I can afford tuning, I'll buy a piano. Nothing like an acoustic instrument.

[aikoaiko]

56. That is what we bought for our son.

Someday we'll get the baby grand.

[gollygee]

12. It is very expensive

I have one taking piano lessons and another who will be starting next school year, and it's crazy expensive. My family is wealthy or there is no way we'd be able to afford it, and I can understand how most people would have to pass this by. It's really too bad because learning an instrument teaches kids so much more than music and makes kids just do better in school in general, and it's one more way class privilege plays out in the US.

[ND-Dem]

29. +100 And yet, it didnt use to be that way. pianos/piano lessons used to be relatively common in

middle class homes, even lower middle class ones. My stepfather was one who took piano as the child of a single mother and got pretty proficient.

[bravenak]

42. I just sent you my kids.

Raise them well and check the airport in the morning. They need a piano.

[JimDandy]

52. LOL! n/t

[gollygee]

53. LOL

[joeglow3]

61. Does music really make kids do better in school?

I ask this honestly. I remember a study a few years ago that said eating cereal every day makes your bones stronger, so the conclusion was cereal was what gave you the benefits (when in reality it was the milk most ate with their cereal).

My oldest has done drums for the last year and a half. However, I have found the kids doing music tend to have more active parents and a bit more money (not rich, but enough to pay the costs). Could it be these other factors that contribute to it?

I honestly don't know the answer.

[Pooka Fey]

79. Music Education research shows this.

I got my Master's in Music Education. This was our best "selling point" to convince parents to sign their kids up for band or orchestra class. It is true that music helps improve test scores in other subjects, but I don't want to go into all the reasons on a DU post. Just jamming along with records won't get those effects, though. Not saying that there's anything wrong with that!

Having involved parents who take an interest in their kid's education is the best way to help kids succeed in school, whether or not the kids are in band or orchestra class.

[SidDithers]

111. We've had really strong music programs at the schools my kids attended...

typical ukelele and recorder through in the early grades, and starting band instruments and guitar in grade 6. The middle school music teacher was excellent

Then, we're fortunate that the high school and even stronger music program, and one of the best senior wind ensembles in Canada, winning gold medals at adjudicated festivals playing 500 level pieces the past 2 years.

I've got a trumpet player and a trombone player at home. I joke that we've got our very own horn section.

Anecdotally, I see the benefits of strong music education up close. It's a regret that I have that my parents didn't "force" me to take up an instrument when doing my schooling.

Sid

[kentauros]

140. While I loved band (playing the euphonium)

and had a lot of fun, especially marching band, it didn't improve my test scores (I never broke a thousand on the SAT, even taking it twice.) However, pretty much all of my band-friends were intellectuals that scored above 1400 on the same tests. At least I learned enough about who to hang out with, and how much better (i.e., crazier!) our means of having fun went

[Manifestor_of_Light]

144. Band and orchestra people are smart.

I am convinced that learning a musical instrument helps your brain immensely.

[kentauros]

147. Then it must have helped mine in ways that

verbal and math testing couldn't figure out

My highest score on the SAT was 960, and that was the first time I took it. The second time it was 920, I think.

[MissB]

80. I don't know. But anecdotally my oldest finds

it relaxing. He's a junior in high school and is taking Calculus 4 (having taken all other Calc classes before that as well as linear algebra and differential equations). He plays by memory or by sound (perfect pitch). Which is to say he will take a multi page sonatina and play it a few times until he remembers it and then simply play it from memory. He never goes into concerts with sheet music.

Does the piano playing enhance his math abilities? I dunno but I'm okay with continued payment of piano lesson fees for as long as he enjoys it. (Younger kid is a year behind in high school but is "only" in advanced calculus this year.)

[Daemonaquila]

103. Yes, but only if they actually study and practice.

I eventually turned away from becoming a professional musician, but for many years between learning and teaching, I saw first hand how this works. If a kid takes it seriously, and puts the time in to really learn and practice (i.e., learning to figure things out and teach themselves new skills successfully, not to mention learning focus and detail-orientation), it carries over into other areas of life and learning. A lot of kids don't know what "mastering a skill" even means. The serious musicians among them do.

[kentauros]

148. However, I do make the distinction that

there are those that can read and play the music, and then there are musicians. It didn't matter for me how much I practiced (and I practiced every day.) I just wasn't a musician. Yet, I could tell just from listening to a little of what some friends played that they had talent. And I knew more than a few of us that simply didn't have the same level of talent.

I suppose if you start a kid earlier enough, after fifteen or so years they'll have enough practice to equal someone who's naturally talented. Six years of band wasn't enough to "practice" the talent into me.

[dilby]

13. I have a feeling the days of kids learning the piano are over.

Thirty years ago my mom wanted me to learn the piano, I wanted to learn the electric guitar so we compromised and I played little league. Today my son who is 9 is taking guitar lessons, guitars are cheaper, take up less space, easier to tune and have a greater appeal to today's children and their parents.

[KittyWampus]

14. This is the sort of thing that makes me wish the USA subsidized arts more:

Why NOT subsidize piano tuners so people can have working instruments?

One of the many, many things we can't have cause we spend most of our money on "defense".

Maybe if people allowed corporate advertising on their pianos corporations would kick in some of the cost.

[bettyellen]

25. subsidizing piano tuners when many kids are hungry and poorly educated? Priorities.

[KittyWampus]

70. Bettyellen, if we took trillions from defense we could have all those things.

Oh, and tightened up our tax system and curbed CEO salaries.

[bettyellen]

73. True, it break my heart how the arts go out the window first...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

137. Like piano tuners' kids?

Why do people scream about the need for jobs, but get bent out of shape when people try to make a living doing their arts oriented job?

Do you think the job market would look more promising with unemployed musicians competing for the same jobs everybody else is?

[yeoman6987]

33. Arts is a waste of money and time

I would rather more math and science classes. I have a drawer full of art junk from the kids from school. I was glad that when they got to high school they did away with art and music and brought in AP classes. I wish they did that in all grades.

[tabbycat31]

37. Some people thrive at the arts

ANd can't afford them privately. I have no problems offering the arts as electives in high school (I took ceramics and theater as electives). My high school had a requirement to take at least two semesters of the arts (over 4 years) in order to graduate (if you participated in extracurricular arts activities such as band, that counted too).

And as someone who was always bad at math and science, I'm glad that it was not the be all end all that it is today. Some people don't have that type of brain, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some school districts are offering magnet schools, one of which is for the arts.

[yeoman6987]

39. I understand what you are saying....I really do

My concern is we are so behind in math and science among first world countries that I think more math and science will ultimately help. Now for those that have a hard time in those subjects I think more funding for classes that explain the two easier and slower would be helpful. Both of these courses can be understandable but only with continued practice over and over again.

[tabbycat31]

47. Math and science should not come at the cost to other subjects

I am one of those people who never was good at them no matter how much explaining was done. I'm never going to go into engineering or medicine. I took three years of each in high school and struggled to pass them for all 3 years (I needed a tutor to pass math).

I did understand math to a certain extent but it peaked in 7th grade. After that it was something that I was never going to use (again not in engineering) and IMO they should have taught more practical math to those who are not on the track to understand calculus. Most people would have gotten a lot more out of learning how interest rates work than how to solve 2x+y. At 34, I haven't used any high school level math since high school (I took 'history of math' in college, which was more a history course, but satisfied my math requirement), but interest rates are a part of my everyday life.

A high school math teacher had a book called 'When are we ever going to use this?' and whenever someone asked the question, he would get out the book (which listed the occupations that used whatever math we were learning). 95% of the occupations in that book were engineering. Not everyone's cut out to be an engineer and we should not force it on people (I already fear we will have a glut of them because this current crop of students is being tracked into it).

I took piano lessons growing up. While I hated it, it did ultimately teach me discipline (having to practice every day, often against my will) and how that if I kept working at something, I would get better (mastering a song that I once could barely play).

[KamaAina]

38. Wynton Marsalis begs to differ

Perhaps the most effective PSA I have ever seen featured him saying, "You know where I learned to play the trumpet? In school."

[frazzled]

50. Oh, lord ... I don't even know where to begin with your comment

All I can say for the moment is: I don't want to live in your world. And most mathematicians and scientists wouldn't either. (Mathematicians are famously musical.)

A world without music and art is a world without a soul. There are numerous skills to be learned from music and art, and education is vastly impoverished without these.

[Phentex]

71. without a soul

is a good way to put it. I don't want to live in that world either!

[MuseRider]

88. It also fosters

a sense of community, large and small, and community of your particular heritage. I like your comment about the world without a soul.

Being a musician in a family of musicians who are all medical/science people as well, I find this comment above disturbed and dangerous. Arts humanize us and support our brains to do amazing things far better than they can without music especially. I could go on but I have learned that arguing with people who find little to no value in it is like arguing with Fundies or Teabaggers. Not saying this person is either of those things but the arguments are all the same and mostly fruitless. I do what I do for myself and those who appreciate and love it and feel sorry for those who are so without art as to argue against it's value.

[Art_from_Ark]

90. Some of my fondest memories of elementary school are of music class

My music teacher was pretty cool. She taught us the "beatnik" version of "Up On The Housetop", which we sang at a Christmas concert. She also introduced us to some of the epochal songs of the day, including "If I Had A Hammer" (Peter, Paul and Mary version), "The Ballad of the Green Berets", and "Let It Be". And she was visibly shaken when she informed us that the Beatles had broken up.

I also liked the practice teacher we had in 3rd grade from the University of Arkansas, who would come to our class once a week to introduce us to classical music like Chopin's Raindrop Prelude and European songs like The Happy Wanderer ("valderi, valdera...&quot .

[frazzled]

91. I can still remember first grade ...

(and I hate to say it, but this was nearly 60 years ago!). We all had to participate in a music listening contest. We listened and heard about a number of pieces in our class, and then were taken one day to the symphony hall to hear the orchestra play them. We had to identify the pieces: Anitra's Dance from Edward Grieg's Peer Gynt Suite; Edward MacDowell's To a Wild Rose, etc. etc. You got a prize (I can't remember the prize!) if you got them right. That music has stuck in my head ever since.

[MuseRider]

106. We do children's concerts every year.

We vary from doing things with video cartoons to show them how classical music is present (or was) in the things they love to doing pieces written with whale songs or accompaniment to movies or things like trains. It varies a lot. We do 2 shows in one day and kids are bussed in from all over the area, we pack the large Performing Arts Center twice full of kids. The last one was a Cowboy theme and rhythm was a large part if it and they heard Copeland and TV Western Themes and selections from The Grand Canyon Suite. Educational packets are sent out beforehand for discussion in the classroom. It is a very popular concert. A day out for the kids to learn about the orchestra and music in general and how it enhances their lives. Kids will occasionally stop you on the street and ask for an autograph, that always cracks me up but we love it and they love it.

It always makes me feel really good to read that something like this has impacted someone, it sure did me.

Check out Dr. Noize http://www.doctornoize.com/

[frazzled]

110. Cool! /nt

[pipi_k]

121. Mine too!

And in 7th grade music class, it wasn't cool to like classical music, so I had to pretend to be unmoved, while inside I was dancing with joy and feeling each and every note, seeing pictures in my mind, put there by the music.

Peter and the Wolf

The Grand Canyon Suite

etc.


In college, I took an elective music appreciation class. Very nearly embarrassed myself one day when the professor played a particularly stirring recording of the 1812 Overture and the tears began to flow at certain points.


My life would be nothing without music and books.

[MuseRider]

127. The very end of 1812

when the war is over and the people come out and the church bells ring right along with the end of the cannons I cry, every time, every single time. Even when I am crouched down in front of the percussion who have just blasted loud caps into trash cans right behind my head or they shoot the Howitzers outside and we are all half deaf those church bell chimes ring and I can hardly play. Had to memorize the entire last page, lol. Do not be embarrassed, many of us on and off stage have points of no return when we shiver and weep. Music is powerful.

I cried when I saw my first Rembrandt. I was never a real true fan of this work (I appreciated it but did not know why it was considered so remarkable) until I saw one right in front of me. It took my breath away. I walked around a corner and there it was, right in front of me. I was in Russia and there was nothing to keep you back from it, it was just right there without a guard or rope or glass. Amazing.

Art is good and it is something that is part of us and becomes larger than us. I can't imagine not being moved by it. It must be a very sad and sterile life without it.

[Art_from_Ark]

159. My first exposure to the 1812 Overture

was a commercial for a Quaker cereal

"This is the cereal that's shot from guns
So delicious 'cause it's shot from guns..."



But I can understand the tears flowing-- I felt the same way after hearing the entire final movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony when I was in 8th grade-- on a radio station that was being broadcast over what served as a rudimentary "weather channel" on TV.

[callous taoboy]

98. Your reply is spot on.

Educators like myself know how important art is to brain development. I remember Doc Severinson decrying the cuts to arts education many years ago, and he astutely pointed out that many people make their livings in the arts.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

138. Thank you.

People conveniently forget that most professional musicians, artists, dancers, and actors attend college to study their craft (sometimes even earning advanced degrees). An economy without artists is not a healthy economy.

Those who think the arts are a waste of time and money would not be too thrilled to have unemployed artists vying for the same jobs as everybody else.

[Dawson Leery]

57. Sports is a waste of time and money.

It also teaches conformity to the power structure.

With that said, I agree on more time for academics. Music should be part this curriculum.

[Pooka Fey]

94. for example nt

[ladjf]

65. I hope that during the remainder of your life you will have some

experiences that change your outlook on artistic activities. Meanwhile, in case your children don't share your opinion, you might at least allow them to give art a chance.

[Glassunion]

76. No, no it is not.

Art / Math / Science / Language / Sports / etc... are not mutually exclusive. One need not sacrifice one for any of the others. All are important, especially to a developing child.

Each discipline fundamentally helps a child develop valuable skills.

[Tom Ripley]

89. Philistine

[Frank Cannon]

92. You must have had the "wire mother" growing up.

As someone who works with math every day, I can't imagine a world without the arts. They make life worth living.

[Pooka Fey]

124. ROFLMAO nt

[Pooka Fey]

93. Tell your cave-man ancestors from 15,000 BCE you cretin, nothing like Repug values on DU, eh ?

[yeoman6987]

107. Nothing RW on what I said.

I guess if we want to continue to lose in the education race then we will have a bunch of art classes. Priorities are a shame in this country. Someday maybe we can look at finger paints while we are all poor and eating dirt. Congrats to the arts though.

[Hissyspit]

119. Oh, yes there is.

Plenty.

[yeoman6987]

122. I have never heard that

Links please.

[Pooka Fey]

120. So much stubborn ignorance in someone claiming to support public education

Arts education and other subjects of the 3R variety ARE mutually supportive, AND NOT mutually exclusive. There is ample precedent for music in the public education curriculum, dating back to the Medieval University, and likely classical Greece.

The core of lower division was the "Trivium": grammar, logic and rhetoric. Upper division comprised the "Quadrivium" : arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. Everyone from the medieval period (year 1000) onwards studied music, and still managed their other 3R subjects - like Isaac Newton, for example.

Your post fails to provide a valid argument to support your thesis. NOBODY has ever said EVER "Hey let's stop teaching the 3 R's so we can spend all day teaching Vomit Art instead", so I'm afraid I'll have to reject your argument for its glaring logical fallacy (the strawman argument), which you might have avoided if you had benefited from a classical Liberal Arts education.

Full disclosure - I was a public school band teacher and I hold a Master's in Music Education

[Kingofalldems]

128. Maybe you should tell the fundies about science too.

[yeoman6987]

133. They are a lost cause. I don't think liberals

Are a lost cause.

[Kingofalldems]

134. Liberals like the Arts.

They are an integral part of a civilized society.

I do notice on the conservative side they seem to want obedient workers, so maybe that Arts are a threat.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

145. Authoritarian regimes want "political" art that supports their values.

They don't want creativity which is a threat.
They want a particular kind of art or music which supports their politics.

Poor Dmitri Shostakovich, one of the greatest 20th century Russian composers, had seen friends disappear to work camps under Stalin, never to be seen again. So they didn't like his Fourth Symphony, so his Fifth Symphony, which is still very popular, had to conform to "communist ideals". He was even forced to denounce Igor Stravinsky in public, although he was not comfortable with that.

The idea of politicians dictating to artists how to paint and write music is ridiculous, since music is so abstract.

And the Nazis put up an exhibit of what they called "Degenerate Art" which was mostly Jewish artists.

Conservatives don't understand humor and irony, and they are not creative. They are not funny nor do they make good music.


We need the arts to keep us human. Listening to music and playing music to express ourselves are fundamental to some peoples' sanity.

[tenderfoot]

100. So many things wrong with that comment, I don't even know where to begin...

[yeoman6987]

108. I guess. Don't worry our country will never get rid of arts completely. You are safe.

Math and Science continue to get dumbed down. I guess your stomach feels better knowing that.

[Hissyspit]

116. And apparently the arts are getting dumbed down, too.

God forbid kids try to walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Hissyspit]

117. What a ridiculous false dichotomy of an argument.

[Lex]

129. That statement is full of BS.

The poster NEVER stated that they hoped math and science would be dumbed down. That's just made up (a lie) by you.

[tenderfoot]

130. That one is beyond obvious.

I'll also note that with that kind of thinking, one shouldn't be surprised that right wing music and art is such shite. Never mind their limited grasp of math and science.

[Starry Messenger]

131. He's serving on MIRT too

Yay!

[tenderfoot]

132. Is that why the alert went to the administrators?

I hope they notice the same things a lot of others have.

[bullwinkle428]

154. Are you freaking serious? This is a shark-jumping moment for DU.

[Starry Messenger]

155. Yup:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10134324

[Tom Ripley]

158. That's just fucked up

[Hissyspit]

115. Oh, for fuck's sake.

Jesus fuckin' Christ on a pile of brain-dead right-wing talking points.

Reason 4: The arts help students develop critical intellectual skills.

http://edge.ascd.org/blogpost/ten-reasons-why-teaching-the-arts-is-critical-in-a-21st-century-world

Due to the impact of K-12 education budget cuts across the country, it is expected that school arts programs (e.g. music, visual arts, dance, theater) in many schools and districts will be reduced or eliminated next year. The arts are often the most vulnerable because they are not considered as important as other subjects and are not evaluated through a high stakes, standardized testing process.

But the reality is that the arts have a powerful impact on learning and are important in their own right. Here are ten reasons why, in a 21st century world, we should STRENGTHEN and EXPAND arts education, not reduce or eliminate it:

MORE

[Pooka Fey]

123. + 1,000,000,000,000, etc nt

[Chan790]

125. That's pretty much verbatim how I feel about non-science STEM subjects.

They are completely fucking useless beyond about 7th grade. Let's not waste education minutes on algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and calculus. Just say no to secondary-school engineering/technology education.

Teach them "consumer math". Blow-off tech and engineering education entirely for the kids not looking to enter a trade field or become engineers. Educate them in computing, humanities and social sciences--things they're actually going to use.

(No, I don't feel this way...but that feeling of loathing and horror as you read this--that is how I feel about your post.)

[Ilsa]

151. There's a lot of brain-training that goes on in

Learning music that isn't apparent from just listening to a child play some out of tune notes. Not to mention the mental discipline. Sorry, but your post gets a "Fail" from this old gal who got on board with math after practicing her music.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

156. It's a horseshit argument. No one is getting less math and science education because

of all the arts/music that's being thrown their way. If anything you're getting your wish and the arts programs are the first ones getting the axe. Guess what. We're still falling behind in math/science. One has nothing to do with the other. It's a republican wet dream to remove creativity from the curricula. And this mentality is unfortunately winning the day. So, YAY for you!.... I guess.

[CreekDog]

157. Arts are a fundamental part of education and have been so for centuries

for some reason, you think that your opinion of art education trumps hundreds of years of experience and the general consensus of educators throughout the world.

why would you think that your opinion should overrule the knowledge of experts?

how much thought have you given this? how much work have you done on this topic? how much study?

[uppityperson]

160. Music and math are highly related as far as what they are and brain function as most trained

educated educators know.

[HappyMe]

15. Cost would be a pretty big consideration.

Cost of the piano, lessons, maintaining the piano, adding it to homeowner's or renter's insurance, moving it...

[ND-Dem]

30. yet americans did all that when the country was much poorer than it is today...

[HappyMe]

32. Probably not poorer Americans.

[ND-Dem]

68. probably not, but middle class ones certainly did. as i know from personal experience.

and my stepfather as a child was certainly poor, yet he had piano lessons.

[JaneyVee]

17. I play piano my whole life and never owned one.

I've always opted for full size keyboards with weighted keys. I also play cello, I do own one though.

[vi5]

19. Cello's are not cheap either.

Most classical/symphonic band instruments (cello, violin, brass, woodwind, etc.) are more expensive than "rock" instruments, when what we desparately need is more of the former and less of the latter (I say this as a rock guitar player, which are a dime a dozen).

[JaneyVee]

23. True, I received a used one as a present when I was 9.

I grew up really poor. These days I can afford a brand new one but I don't see the point. I love this one and have a sentimental attachment and only have to change the strings every 2 years. I could probably afford a new piano too at this point but I rarely buy anything considered luxury goods, plus I live in Manhattan and every square foot is precious.

[Orrex]

45. But there's always room for cello.

[vi5]

49. Ha!

Tooke me a few seconds.....

[tammywammy]

22. I played the cello until after I graduate high school.

After playing a few years on rented instruments, my mom bought me my own. Cello, plus now and hard case was $5,500. I eventually sold it a few years ago for the same amount.

I do wish I had learned the piano. Maybe after I finish up my MBA, I'll look I to lessons. You're never too old, right? And I would get a keyboard first too before the real thing.

[JaneyVee]

24. We should start a band!

[vi5]

18. We just bought my daughter a used piano recently.

She's 13, started playing 6 years ago. We started with a digital piano with weighted keys which cost only $300. We figured that was a cheaper,more space efficient way to see if she sticks with it.


After 6 years of playing and her interest obviously not waning, we decided to take the plunge on a used, small baby grand. I've played guitar for 30 years, and It cost more than my 8 guitars, 3 amplifiers, drum kit, bass, recording studio set up, and full PA/Speaker system combined.

Even used uprights were several thousand dollars.

[pintobean]

20. I see 4 or 5 a week, for free on Craigslist

People can't give them away. I saw a guy destroy an antique piano with a sledge hammer, and throw the pieces in a dumpster, because no one wanted it.

It's a shame.

[geek tragedy]

21. Cost and size both play a role.

A piano pretty much requires its own room. That's an issue for city dwellers.


They're almost a luxury good these days.

[Capt. Obvious]

26. I picked a bad time to get into the piano moving business

[Brother Buzz]

55. Moving used pianos should continue to thrive

[MANative]

28. Very sad, but very true.

My parents bought an upright for me when I was about ten, and I played it daily until I left for college. Never had room for it in any of my early homes, and they gave it to a young cousin a number of years ago. When we finally bought a home, I paid about $6K for a Yamaha digital. It's got amazing sound, but as much as I love to play, I don't do it very often anymore. Fingers aren't as nimble as they used to be.

Learning to play the piano was pivotal in my education, thought-process development, and personal discipline. It's sad to see how music education has disappeared from so many curricula.

[cyberswede]

31. This is too bad.

My mom has the piano I learned on. My 3 living sisters and I all have pianos; one of my brothers has a baby grand. I bought my spinet at an auction for about $200.

I had the chance to buy a 1920s baby grand at an estate sale for about $300, but I don't have space for a piano that big.

I'm sorry that piano stores are disappearing, but I could never afford a brand new piano.

[Daemonaquila]

104. Your story tells why it is NOT a shame.

Having pursued music professionally for many years, and teaching, I often boggled at the piano stores full of expensive furniture masquerading as instruments. Most were simply awful. However, you could go to a dealer with a warehouse full of used instruments, or an auction, and pull out gems for little money. When I opened a music school with 3 friends, we picked up a fabulous 60 year old piano for $150, looking a bit battered but sounding so much better than the pathetic new Baldwins and similar dreck at the store.

I always get grumpy when people think a keyboard is an adequate replacement. Sure, I have a really great one and have used it for gigs. But like pianos, most are crap - many do not have the full keyboard, the sound is mediocre, and despite claims of weighting and realistic response, it's nothing like the real thing. A learner can't ever find out what the power of the real instrument feels like, develop hand and finger muscles to the same extent, discover the performance nuances that exist only in metal and wood, etc.

Parents spend hundreds on iPhones, x-boxes, playstations, games, etc. for their kids. For less, they can buy a ferocious instrument that is a life-changer for quite a few kids.

[benz380]

36. Every once in a while I see a "free piano" or "cheap piano" ad on Craigslist.

People move and can't or don't want to take it with them.

[hunter]

40. Film cameras are essentially obsolete too.

The nice thing about cameras is they don't take up much room.

I've managed to replace all the film cameras I broke or lost as a kid, and collected many I'd wished for. All of them were either free or for sale at a tiny fraction of their original prices.

The average person can't collect pianos or afford to keep them in good repair if they don't do the work themselves. Maybe the best they can do is keep one piano and learn how to tune it themselves. Piano tuning is an art as demanding as playing the piano well.

The technology I want to see become obsolete is personal automobiles. It may happen sooner than we expect, especially with self driving cars. You'll be able to tap a destination on your cell phone, and a few minutes later a self driving car will arrive to pick you up.

Some destinations will be free, like validated parking is now, paid for by your employer or the businesses you are visiting.

[eShirl]

41. I see free pianos on Craig's List all the time

[Orrex]

43. Does this mean that fewer people are playing with their organs?

An unprecedented calamity!

[LeftyMom]

44. How much current popular music uses the piano?

Why would people learn instruments they don't listen to?

[tabbycat31]

48. One of the top songs of 2014 does

Come to think about it, the entire album does (Frozen soundtrack).

[KittyWampus]

51. Maybe Broadway? Maybe composers still work things out on a piano?

[Pooka Fey]

58. Sarah McLachlan, Alicia Keys, Elton John, Norah Jones, Journey, Ben Folds, Tori Amos, Bruce Hornsby

Last edited Tue Jan 13, 2015, 05:47 AM - Edit history (1)

not to mention all jazz music. Piano is amazingly versatile.

[jeff47]

66. Almost all of it.

The keyboard might not be set on "piano" though.

[Glassunion]

74. Quite a bit of popular music uses piano

I can think of several bands that are quite popular that use the piano.

Muse, Radiohead, The Killers, My Chemical Romance, Coldplay, The Strokes, Panic at the Disco, Queens of the Stone Age, Imagine Dragons, and band that Jack White is in, Blur, The Black Keys, etc... I could go on and on....

[Paladin]

46. If you have a piano you want to get rid of, see if your area schools need it.

That's what we did not too long ago with an upright that had sat around as furniture in our house for thirty years. The local high school was overwhelmingly grateful to receive it, and we are satisfied that students will be using it for years to come.

[fadedrose]

54. Less "real" music now

Nothing you can sing or learn the words to - the only time a gang gets around the piano in any home today is to sing Christmas carols - still lovely on a piano.

Maybe somebody will bring back the type of music we all need.

The noise played on the radio today isn't worthy of a costly piano or lessons to most kids who would rather hear the noise.

[KatyMan]

69. Get off my lawn!

Plenty of great new music around if you're willing to make the effort to look for it.

[Glassunion]

75. [phone]

[Blue_In_AK]

64. This is really sad.

To me, the piano is the very best instrument for helping kids "see" music. The notes are all laid out for you there in a sequence that makes sense.

My mom and dad gave us a piano when my oldest girl was taking piano lessons back in 1980. Now my youngest (29), who took lessons from age 4 until she got out of high school, has it and it brings her much joy. It probably needs a new sound board and a good tuning, but we would never get rid of it.

[tridim]

67. Just a cool piano story...

My music major buddy in college once bought a very old player piano for $25.

After much pain getting it moved, we started trying to fix it. We never got it working, but in the process of taking it all apart and trying we found hundred of old coins inside the piano. I don't remember exactly what they were, but we did some research and found out that the piano had been installed on a Mississippi steam ship in the late 1890's and the coins were probably tips that never made it into the tip jar.

Really cool stuff.

[Pooka Fey]

81. Cool story! Brilliant nt

[Art_from_Ark]

87. So what did you do with the coins?

Coins dating from the 1890s in decent condition can fetch some good money in the collector market.

[yuiyoshida]

72. True story...

Down about a block away was this house where this guy played the piano. He was excellent playing it and as one walked down the side walk, one could hear it. Some people even stopped to listen until one day the Police showed up at his door and talked to him. The music stopped after that and people would go by to see if they could hear it, but there was nothing but silence. About a week later a truck came and two guys carried the Piano out of his house, and the neighborhood went quiet. Seems someone thought his music was too loud, despite it was done during the day and not so much at night or in the morning.

[Warpy]

77. Kids who are interested are learning on electronic keyboards

No, they're not nearly the same but the skill can be transferred once the basics are down.

The main thing against even spinet piano sales is the cost of moving the damned things. People aren't staying in their homes for a lifetime any more, they have to be uprooted several times, on average, following work opportunities. A piano makes that move more difficult.

The piano in the parlor used to be a sign that you'd made it. Now it's an albatross.

[MissB]

78. As noted elsewhere, it's expensive all around

I think we paid close to $400 to have the last one moved out and the new one moved in. Both were craigslist purchases.

And that's just the moving cost. We also had to buy it (used) and have it professionally tuned.

I've been paying for piano lessons since my kids were 4 and 5. Same piano teacher, once a week for a half an hour each (hour total), $50/week. The kids are now 15 and 16.

Please don't do the math for me. They play quite well at this point, but at the end of it I will still have a very large piece of useless furniture to dust when they move out. Neither DH nor I play it.

[abelenkpe]

82. My kids are learning piano

But we have a keyboard. Live in an apt. Couldn't really get a piano up the stairs or even find room. Wish we could have a piano though

[tanyev]

83. As someone who used to teach piano lessons, I'm not surprised.

When parents would ask whether they should get a piano, I often recommended cheaper keyboards, especially for beginning students. It's enough to learn the basics on, and I don't think any of my student's families had the budget to buy a new or even a gently used piano. In a way, having cheaper options available may make the keyboard more accessible to some families.

It is a shame, though, that this will probably put real pianos further out of reach for promising musicians.

[TM99]

84. This is a damned shame,

and many replies fill me with dread for our culture.

I own an amazing project studio with weighted MIDI controllers and have access to a hundreds of high quality samples of pianos, but it is just not the same thing as recording or hearing a piano live. It just is not.

I still own a piano because sometimes in this fabulous modern world, electricity fails. Piano's don't need a wall-wart.

I teach piano lessons to a few students - mostly advanced high school students wanting to learn jazz, theory and composition. I always do it at my piano. I always encourage my students to get access to a piano. There are free ones to be had. There are rentals. There are college campus music departments.

And to the idiots that say we need more STEM than music, wtf?! There is room for both. I play multiple instruments and was fortunate to have parents that saw talent and encouraged its development. I also fix all of my own analog synths, design DIY MIDI devices and synths, and code VST's.

[olddots]

85. oh music is so old school ........

[B Calm]

96. Electronic keyboards are much cheaper and take up less space.

[teenagebambam]

101. I have my great grandmother's upright

It was bought used, for $20, in 1914. Works great, but yeah, a bitch to move.

[ProfessorGAC]

102. Electronic Keyboards

Saw it developing quickly when i was stil teaching. And, i didn't do beginners. I taught mostly teenagers who had been playing for 4 to 6 years when they and the parents had interest in taking it up a notch.

I stopped doing that well over 10 years ago, and i would say that even then, 2 of 3 students was playing on a electronic keyboard.

I remember having to discuss with two different set of parents that they would be better off renting my old Wurlizter electric piano (I wanted a dollar a week) than buying a Casio because the one they wanted (cheap) wasn't touch sensitive. One set of folks i couldn't convince, so the young woman never really learned the visceral aspect of "the harder you hit it, the louder it is".

She did improve quite a lot over a few years so it didn't kill her ability to learn, but that was happening as far back as the mid-90's.

Now, with decent sounding, weighted action, electronic pianos out there at really reasonable prices, a real piano is a tough sell.

I agree with some others here, that it's too bad, but sadly i am completely unsurprised.

[Pooka Fey]

126. I worry somewhat about losing my touch sensitivity even on a weighted action

Yamaha digital. I played an acoustic upright as a child and in university, afterwards I stopped piano but continued playing my woodwind instruments.

I recently purchased a very well reviewed Yamaha digital piano, as I live in an apartment with paper-thin walls. I enjoy playing it, it sounds great, and since I have chronic tendonitis and live in a damp climate, I like that I can put the keyboard on "soft touch" and it's easier on my old arthritic hands.

[ProfessorGAC]

153. I Still Have A Console

Still have it in my rec room. For electronic i use an Alesis QS8.1. It's a full synthesizer that does both sampling playback and has all the filtering to do shaping. I really like the action on it a lot (88 key weighted), but it's still not as responsive as a regular piano.

The only one i ever played where i was really thinking that it was hard to tell the difference (at least compared to a console, not a grand) was the Synclavier, which was also made by Yamaha. They may have carried over that design to what you have, so yeah, that would be awfully good.

[SheilaT]

118. A friend of mine lived in Muscatine, Iowa nearly thirty years ago.

She told me that just about every single home in that city had an old piano in the basement. She had one such. If no one is playing (and I don't think any of her three sons ever took piano lessons) it's hard to justify moving them.

My sons took piano lessons for a few years, then stopped. I eventually sold the piano to a friend who was moving back to my area and now needed one.

[Liberal_in_LA]

135. interesting

[csziggy]

139. The local piano store moved to a smaller location and is now selling out

They've been in business for something like 40 years - the owner-founder is in the ads with his grandson or maybe great grandson. It's kind of sad since they bought and sold instruments and have been a valuable community resource.

I've got my grandmother's piano, the one her parents bought her in 1905 (I looked up the serial number) and that has never belonged to another family. I don't really play, but I didn't want to see this fine instrument hauled off to the dump - which is where it was going to end up if I didn't retrieve it.

I'm hoping that someday one of my musical nephews will want it. If not I will find a good home for it. There is a music school here, I'm sure someone connected with it would help me locate someone who would want it.

[adirondacker]

142. They don't make them like that anymore. I just did a quick google and WOW there are some beauties...

http://antiquepianoshop.com/products/upright/

[csziggy]

149. Those are much fancier than my piano

But my piano still has wonderful sound. It's a Sohmer upright grand. When I last got it tuned, the tuner was impressed at the quality of sound and the condition of the works. It needs to have the finish restored and a few of the keys are chipped, but it's never had the pads replaced. Someday I hope I can afford to have it fully restored - the tuner estimated it would cost about $1500 to do it.

Here's what it looked like when I first got it home:



I've cleaned it up some, but the crackled finish needs a lot more work that I can do.

[GReedDiamond]

143. Slightly - or maybe more than slightly - off topic...

...I have an ex-band member friend who lives in Colorado and who makes his living as a piano tuner, still to this day.

But, yeah, real acoustic pianos are quickly becoming a specialty niche in the musical instrument market for new buyers.

Most people today prefer the electronic version for its affordability, reasonable enough quality of sound, portability, and ease of maintenance (my friend the piano tuner not needed) - as well as versatility of available sounds, compared to a traditional acoustic piano.

But when you're really serious about it, and it's the sound you're after, there's nuthin like a real grand piano on your tune in the studio.

Analog is the best.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

146. I have an old upright.

I bought it in the Eighties. It's a 1925 Gulbransen and about a half step low. Five feet tall. It would be good for practicing because of the heavy action. Wooden keys with ivory tops. The soundboard is not cracked and it has the original strings, which is unusual.

Twenty years ago I bought a Kurz (Kurzweil) portable synth and that's my main practice piano. The default sound is classical piano and it's weighted. Not as heavy as the upright keys. Still works well. It also has a lot of other sounds in it should I want to compose MIDI stuff and I have Sonar (formerly Cakewalk) software to run it into a 24 track recorder.

I started lessons at five years of age because we were storing my grandmother's upright and she was still working. She had grown up in the days when everybody had an upright for home entertainment. She could play a bit by ear. I was fascinated and started messing on it. The parents didn't have any talent, but saw me messing around and got me a teacher and I took lessons for 12 years until I finished high school. Then a violin dropped into my lap when I was ten from an estate, and my piano teacher just happened to also be a violinist as well, which is rare. I took lessons on both instruments from him. And it gave me something social to do, starting in sixth grade orchestra. I was completely obsessed with violin for about 15 years and then got tired of it and put it away.

I think if I hadn't been in orchestra my teenage angst would have been worse than usual. It gave me an outlet. I was obsessed with classical music and still groove on it.

I think everybody who wants to learn music should start on piano because it's laid out in front of you, on a small portable keyboard.
And you learn about sharps and flats. Many different kinds of music use piano. I think with my hands in the air, what you'd call "air piano.". My brain will not function on guitar. It doesn't work. Wrong intervals. I am very auditory and kinesthetic.

I think learning an instrument is like doing anything else with your hands, only better. It integrates your brain. I continued the fiddling in college and in community orchestras. Went to music camps in high school and all that. Became a church choir director and piano player. I know that if I practice, it helps my brain and I literally feel much better after practicing. It's very satisfying to play and hear yourself get better. I would get depressed if I didn't have a piano to practice on. And I need to do it frequently, ideally every day.

I like old interesting pop songs like Gershwin and Rodgers and Hart and Kurt Weill, as well as Mendelssohn and Beethoven.

I can't imagine what my life would be like if we had not had that upright in our house back in the 1960s, because music is my religion. There have been several people on my mom's side of the family with musical talent, including a cousin of mine who was a professional trumpet player. One of my cousins has a heavy metal power trio that does weekend gigs.

Many of the people I have known in community orchestras were either mathematicians or programmers. Math and music go together. I don't see why some kid would learn Guitar Hero when they could get a real instrument and learn from a teacher or a book.

Music and science are not either/or. They go together. Albert Einstein was quite a good violinist.

I have always loved practicing. It was never drudgery for me. I think all kids should be offered music lessons. My husband's sister took lessons and had absolutely no concept of pitch or any talent, so his mom decided that since the first kid didn't like it, the second kid wouldn't like it either. He wished his mom had been smart enough to try him out on piano when he was young and get both hands going independently. You never know which kid will enjoy it and have talent.

He played the flute first and switched to the guitar when the Beatles hit America, and he's pretty good. He introduced me to good folk music like Peter, Paul and Mary. They had much more good stuff than just Puff the Magic Dragon and Leavin' on a Jet Plane.

As someone further up the thread said, a kid has to love it and have the discipline to practice. Starting on classical music is a good foundation for going into jazz or rock (like Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman or Jean Luc Ponty or Andy Summers of The Police).

Old pianos are often much better than the new ones. I wish I had room for an old Chickering or a Mason & Hamlin or something similar.

I met my former husband in orchestra. He played string bass, I played first violin. Our child took African drumming and guitar but she didn't really stay with either one. However, she has been exposed to enough good music of all kinds that she can recognize good bands. She once told me she really liked "Revolver" and I decided my music ed program of taking her to the opera (Hansel & Gretel, The Magic Flute, Porgy and Bess) and other things was a success.

And she does like some of the geezer rock that I grew up on in the 60s and 70s and 80s.

[Xilantro]

152. wow