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Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:25 PM

Great cartoon: Burka vs Bikini - symbols of male-dominated cultures



I offer these thoughts are a preface to a postcard from PostSecret. The person who sent in the postcard suggests that she’s not sure which is worse: the rigid and extreme standard of beauty in the U.S. and the way that women’s bodies are exposed to scrutiny or the idea of living underneath a burka that disallows certain freedoms, but frees you from evaluative eyes and the consequences of their negative appraisals.



http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/02/22/questioning-definitions-of-freedom/

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Reply Great cartoon: Burka vs Bikini - symbols of male-dominated cultures (Original post)
pampango Dec 2014 OP
samsingh Dec 2014 #1
samsingh Dec 2014 #1
Ron Green Dec 2014 #4
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #24
truedelphi Dec 2014 #27
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #31
A Simple Game Dec 2014 #33
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #34
A Simple Game Dec 2014 #40
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #43
polly7 Dec 2014 #52
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #53
prayin4rain Dec 2014 #57
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #60
A Simple Game Jan 2015 #111
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #112
A Simple Game Jan 2015 #115
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #116
samsingh Dec 2014 #46
samsingh Dec 2014 #44
Recursion Dec 2014 #105
treestar Dec 2014 #42
onenote Dec 2014 #90
peabody Dec 2014 #3
upaloopa Dec 2014 #6
840high Dec 2014 #35
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #5
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #25
Recursion Dec 2014 #86
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #101
Recursion Dec 2014 #104
CJCRANE Dec 2014 #7
Ace Rothstein Dec 2014 #28
uppityperson Dec 2014 #8
Logical Dec 2014 #9
Recursion Dec 2014 #87
onenote Dec 2014 #91
Recursion Dec 2014 #95
ZX86 Dec 2014 #10
hifiguy Dec 2014 #11
Recursion Dec 2014 #88
hifiguy Dec 2014 #92
Recursion Dec 2014 #93
True Blue Door Dec 2014 #12
Recursion Dec 2014 #103
True Blue Door Dec 2014 #108
WinkyDink Dec 2014 #13
MoonRiver Dec 2014 #23
upaloopa Dec 2014 #77
WinkyDink Jan 2015 #117
Orrex Jan 2015 #113
WinkyDink Jan 2015 #118
bigwillq Dec 2014 #14
madokie Dec 2014 #15
joshcryer Dec 2014 #16
davidn3600 Dec 2014 #17
Nye Bevan Dec 2014 #18
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #19
Throd Dec 2014 #20
riderinthestorm Dec 2014 #21
arcane1 Dec 2014 #26
riderinthestorm Dec 2014 #30
cwydro Dec 2014 #22
Recursion Dec 2014 #89
truedelphi Dec 2014 #29
alphafemale Dec 2014 #50
msongs Dec 2014 #32
EEO Dec 2014 #36
JEFF9K Dec 2014 #37
braddy Dec 2014 #38
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2014 #39
eggplant Dec 2014 #41
Matariki Dec 2014 #45
dilby Dec 2014 #47
Recursion Dec 2014 #84
onenote Dec 2014 #96
Recursion Dec 2014 #97
onenote Dec 2014 #106
Recursion Dec 2014 #107
stevenleser Dec 2014 #110
1step Dec 2014 #48
Quantess Dec 2014 #49
JI7 Dec 2014 #51
samsingh Dec 2014 #54
stevenleser Dec 2014 #55
prayin4rain Dec 2014 #56
stevenleser Dec 2014 #58
prayin4rain Dec 2014 #59
SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #73
prayin4rain Dec 2014 #74
SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #75
prayin4rain Dec 2014 #76
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #62
stevenleser Dec 2014 #63
hifiguy Dec 2014 #70
Recursion Dec 2014 #100
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #61
prayin4rain Dec 2014 #64
Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #65
prayin4rain Dec 2014 #66
hifiguy Dec 2014 #68
meaculpa2011 Dec 2014 #81
hifiguy Dec 2014 #67
GummyBearz Dec 2014 #69
Donald Ian Rankin Dec 2014 #71
uppityperson Dec 2014 #72
riderinthestorm Dec 2014 #78
pampango Dec 2014 #82
riderinthestorm Dec 2014 #94
Recursion Dec 2014 #85
Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2014 #79
Agnosticsherbet Dec 2014 #80
Recursion Dec 2014 #83
riderinthestorm Dec 2014 #98
Recursion Dec 2014 #99
riderinthestorm Dec 2014 #109
Orrex Jan 2015 #114
dawg Dec 2014 #102

Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:28 PM

1. the bikini is freely chosen by women - also, while not on the beach

women generally wear something else.

this comparison is crap.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:28 PM

1. the bikini is freely chosen by women - also, while not on the beach

women generally wear something else.

this comparison is crap.

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Response to samsingh (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:35 PM

4. Perhaps it's not the comparison, but the idea

that's important.

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Response to Ron Green (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:15 PM

24. What idea could that possibly be?

Seriously. There's no way that cartoon makes sense except to shame Western women for wearing bikinis.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:55 PM

27. Tell that to those of us who have suffered with anorexia, or bulimia,

In an effort to fit into that bikini.


Even Jane Fonda, goddess of exercise beyond compare, admitted that much of her lithe figure at the height of her exercise craze was due to bulimia.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:13 PM

31. That doesn't mean women who don't starve themselves yet choose to wear what they want

are responsible.

That would be akin saying casual drinkers are responsible for the misfortunes of alcoholics.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:24 PM

33. No not for wearing them, but why they wear them. Huge difference. n/t

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #33)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:26 PM

34. And why is that, according to your theory?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #34)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:59 PM

40. They wear them to impress other people.

And thanks for the flattery but it is far from my theory. There has been debate about whether women are trying harder to impress men or other women with their choice of clothing, make-up, hair style, etc. I don't know it may even be both. I do know that orange piece of cloth in the OP doesn't look comfortable crammed up her butt crack and has to be for some other reason than it's practicality or comfort.

But there is little reason to believe that they wear them for their own pleasure.

What are your thoughts? Do women wear uncomfortable clothing, make-up and hard to maintain hair styles for their own pleasure? Or am I wrong and those styles are actually comfortable? I don't know for sure but it wouldn't seem so.

Piercings, tattoos, and I don't even want to think about the anal bleaching, who could that be for?

Remember extremes work both ways.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 12:59 AM

43. "But there is little reason to believe that they wear them for their own pleasure."

That is a shockingly low opinion of women.

Tell me, according to this theory you have adopted, why do I -- or any woman -- do things to please my/our partners? Are we --

A) Mindless sex toys

B) Oppressed victims looking to appease

C) Partners in committed, affectionate relationships that seek to give as much as we receive and delight in the happiness of our (potential) mate

Granted, being single at a beach and sporting a bikini are different from a committed relationship but every married woman was once single. My thoughts about how I dress haven't changed. I don't have a model's body but I'm happy with what I've got and I have no qualms about wearing a bikini. I've worn them and, yes, I prefer them.

By the way, guys also do things to make themselves attractive. How come the neo-Victorians aren't constantly hounding them?

Remember extremes work both ways


What extremes? It's a frickin' bikini.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 11:18 AM

52. Agree.

Being from Canada where we get sometimes 5 months of 'winter' a year ..... when I do get to go to the beach in warm weather the last thing 'I' want to wear is a bunch of clothes. The less the better, and I really couldn't care who thinks what. If people like me in my bikini or think it looks terrible, that's up to them and not something I think about for one second.

This idea that western women dress for men is just stupid. We're not mindless morons. Our ancestors fought for the right to dress as we please. I love my clothes, I alter and fix them up the way I want and express my own pleasure wearing them. Completely stupid, meaningless cartoon - especially when comparing a burka to a bikini as if a bikini is normal, everyday clothing.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #52)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 11:37 AM

53. "This idea that western women dress for men is just stupid. We're not mindless morons."

Exactly!

That's what is so {censored} infuriating about this line of argument. Apparently, we're just crawling along in desperate search for male approval and thereby serving as tools in our own oppression because we're either too stupid or weak-willed. And we should be thankful these enlightened souls have appeared in their shining armor to instruct us in our error.

With allies like that who the hell needs the MRA types?

And what if I do want to show off the goodies? What if I do want to walk through the door on Lover Boy's arm with him beaming because he's sure he has won the heart of the best looking woman in the room? I should be ashamed because my husband adores me? I seek to please him because he seeks to please me -- it's a marriage of affectionate commitment to each other, not an adversarial contest.

And how come men never suffer this stigma? "Oh. You're just jogging, working out and wearing appealing clothes because you have to find your identity in how many women find you attractive." The double-standard is no different than the "sexually prolific men are conquerors but sexually prolific women are sluts" argument.

I honestly think sometimes people just blurt out whatever enters their minds without first fully examining the ramifications of what it is they're saying. Sometimes it gets made into a cartoon that is posted with ill-considered glee.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 12:47 PM

57. If your husband is beaming primarily

because you're good looking and you're happy about that, that would be terribly sad.

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Response to prayin4rain (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 01:19 PM

60. If; but not. I'm confident with my body image but I could never be mistaken for

a trophy bride. And he is perfectly able find plenty of dates, if he so chose. We have had our commitment to each other tested and we both chose each other.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #43)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 12:41 PM

111. You don't understand my reference to extremes?

You think a burka it too much and others think a bikini is too little. Each are extremes in clothing options according to both sides. And I still think a piece of cloth in your butt crack can't be comfortable. There is even a name for it; wedgie.

As for doing things to please your partner, that was exactly my point, you are doing things to please someone other than yourself, thanks for agreeing with me. I leave the why up to you.

As for my "adopting" anything? No I just find it interesting and worth asking questions about. Sounds like you are curious about the subject. You are probably too young to remember all of the studies done back in the '60's and early '70's about why women wear mini skirts and bikinis but you could probably find some information by doing a web search.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #111)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 01:37 PM

112. "As for doing things to please your partner, that was exactly my point...

you are doing things to please someone other than yourself, thanks for agreeing with me. I leave the why up to you.

Because Love does not seek its own. Are you capable of understanding the difference between a gift and a transaction or meeting-an-expectation versus just-for-the-hell-of-it?

How should I treat the person I love? With spite and selfish indifference?

And as weird as this may sound to you: Yes, there is a significant sexual component to our relationship. Some might think simply because I'm a married woman I'm little more than a captive sex slave drone but they would be wrong -- stupidly, stupidly wrong.


You are probably too young to remember all of the studies done back in the '60's and early '70's about why women wear mini skirts and bikinis but you could probably find some information by doing a web search.

Get off your condescending high horse already. Your posts are seeping with paternalism. I know why I do what I do and those are my own reasons. Studies from a half century ago do not trump my free will and I'm not in denial (though I'm sure many would leap at such a declaration as proof of being in denial). I know me better than you know no matter how smart you've convinced yourself you may be.


You think a burka it too much and others think a bikini is too little.

If you can't even get the nature of my statements correct you aren't qualified to comment on them. Neither I nor anyone else here is claiming the full body dress is too much. Go back and try it again. You won't even have to do a web search.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #112)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 02:33 PM

115. You know why you do what you do but fail to see why burkas are worn.

You really are failing to see the similarities in both situations. Do you think those women don't love their husbands and religion? You are using the excuse that the burka wearers are forced to wear them when the truth is most wear them for the same reason you wear your bikini. You think your reason is acceptable but the same reason for the burka wearers is unacceptable.

You still refuse to say you wear a bikini because you feel comfortable in it, you will only say you are wearing it to please someone else which is exactly my point and why most women wear burkas.

More name calling with the "paternalism" when my point was that you probably don't know the history behind the study of clothing choices and that you could educate yourself on the subject. Your viewpoint seems to be limited to your personal experiences and feelings not realizing you may be an outlier and not reflective of the true reasoning for women's clothing choices.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #115)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 04:10 PM

116. "You still refuse to say you wear a bikini because you feel comfortable in it"

Some people just can't settle for being wrong, they have to be obnoxious and very wrong. To wit, I wrote --

I don't have a model's body but I'm happy with what I've got and I have no qualms about wearing a bikini. I've worn them and, yes, I prefer them.


Not that I'm required to make declaration to satisfy you, of all people.


More name calling with the "paternalism" when my point was that you probably don't know the history behind the study of clothing choices and that you could educate yourself on the subject.

Because you are being paternalistic. This thread is full of women saying we wear what we want and you have -- studies. We are more real and more relevant than some half-century old study. I don't need to educate myself, you need to drop condescending not-it-all attitude.


Do you think those women don't love their husbands and religion? You are using the excuse that the burka wearers are forced to wear them when the truth is most wear them for the same reason you wear your bikini. You think your reason is acceptable but the same reason for the burka wearers is unacceptable.

You claim to know their motives to be innocent yet you have done nothing but impugn every statement I ever made; pointing to "studies" as if I or any of the other women in this thread are incapable of knowing our own minds.

I will better trust the women wearing full dress are freely expressing themselves once the governments in their lives make it legal for them to freely express themselves. But all I have to go on are the facts that a bunch of despots are stoning them for being raped or forcing them to marry their rapists. The women you claim are freely choosing to dress are being charged as terrorists for driving a car and being pushed back into a burning building for being insufficiently dressed.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:21 AM

46. totally wrong.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:20 AM

44. that's what i took from it

it was a stupid comparison that attempts to soften the horror that the forced covering inflicts on hundreds of millions of women.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:29 PM

105. The idea that neither woman sees the other as making her own choice (nt)

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Response to samsingh (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 10:35 PM

42. Only thin women though

It's rather the opposite. I suppose a heavy woman or older woman is free legally to wear a bikini. But the social pressure not to would be there.

There is some sentiment that the full covering releases middle eastern women from that judgment in public - though I'm sure the individual men who get to see them might put pressure on them about their looks.

The women who wear bikinis are a small subset of women who have that choice as far as a body to show off.

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Response to treestar (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:06 PM

90. social pressure also is for a heavy man not to wear a speedo

But they sometimes choose to do so, just as some heavy women sometimes choose to wear a bikini.

Choice.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:34 PM

3. Bad analogy.

Bikinis are freely chosen to be worn (how many other things can a women where to the beach?). Burkas, on the other hand, are required attire subject to severe punishment if not worn.

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Response to peabody (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:40 PM

6. At the beach my wife and I go to women wear or don't

wear what ever they like and men too. That is why we call it a free beach. There men don't decide what women wear.

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Response to peabody (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:31 PM

35. ...^ that

 

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:39 PM

5. So, what this cartoon is saying is: Since Western women choose to wear bikinis they --

unlike their Eastern counterparts -- are choosing to contribute to male dominance.

Got any cartoons about how tight, short skirts leading to sexual assault?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:23 PM

25. +1 n/t

 

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:00 PM

86. The other woman in the cartoon is also western, and also choosing to wear her niqaab

(It's not a burqa, incidentally)

The two are in the same country, and neither are required to wear what they chose to wear. It's interesting how many people who dislike this cartoon miss that part.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #86)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:22 PM

101. "The two are in the same country,"

The two are a fabrication of the artist's mind.


neither are required to wear what they chose to wear.

In Western nations.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #101)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:26 PM

104. Yes, in western nations

Most middle eastern governments are pretty shitty; you won't see me argue that.

The two are a fabrication of the artist's mind.

True, but they're a pretty interesting illustration of Muslim women and non-Muslim women not seeing the agency of each other -- something that does in fact happen in the west.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:41 PM

7. This reminds me of a conversation

between two of my students: a woman from Brazil and one from Saudi Arabia.

The Saudi woman said that in her culture the more clothes a woman wore the better. The Brazilian woman said that it was the opposite in her culture and that women were expected to wear as few clothes as possible.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:00 PM

28. Brazil has a whole different level of bikini than we do here in the US.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:41 PM

8. an interesting perspective, I will have to think on this but k&r for interesting thought

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:42 PM

9. So women in the USA HAVE to wear Bikinis? Wow, I thought they got to decide. nt

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:01 PM

87. Both women in the cartoon are in the USA

They are passing each other in the street. Does the woman in niqaab HAVE to wear it?

It's interesting. This cartoon first came out a couple of years ago and one thing I've noticed consistently is that people who don't like it never seem to make the connection that the Muslim woman in the cartoon is in America too.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #87)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:10 PM

91. As a matter of law she doesn't have to wear it. As a matter of her culture/religion, she does

She would be ostracized is she did not. She probably would not be allowed to enter the mosque where she worships if she did not.

On the other hand, there is no cultural or religious imperative that women in America wear bikinis. Women who go to the beach in a one piece suit aren't ostracized. And a woman attempting entering a church or synagogue in a bikini would be prevented from doing so.

So the comparison is just a big old fail.

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Response to onenote (Reply #91)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:14 PM

95. Really?

I "learn" so many interesting "facts" about Islam on DU...

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:42 PM

10. Sexy is bad. Slut shaming is good.

Got it.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:43 PM

11. The one teeny, tiny difference being

 

that Western women are not forced into bikinis against their will by religulous assholes who see themselves "promoting virtue."

A really, rilly awful analogy. Unrec.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:02 PM

88. Neither woman in the cartoon is forced to wear what she is wearing

They're both in the same country, presumably the US.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #88)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:11 PM

92. Women ARE forced to wear burkas and hijabs

 

with the penalty for failing to do so being a beating or even death. Not by color of law in the US, of course, but it can happen as multiple posts in this thread, including two about the Saudi school disaster, prove.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #92)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:13 PM

93. Saudi Arabia is a horrible country, and irrelevant to the cartoon

Why did you bring up Saudi Arabia?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:43 PM

12. What a dishonest false analogy.

Nobody forces a woman to wear a bikini. There is no country where bikinis are mandatory, and not revealing enough of your body would get a woman thrown in jail or murdered.

Nobody runs up to women in t-shirts and shorts on a beach and screams at them "take those clothes off, now, you evil woman!"

There is no Western analogy for how horribly women are treated in Islamic countries. None. It's a lame psychological attempt to rationalize a one-sided horror.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:25 PM

103. The cartoon is not about clothing but about the two women not seeing each other as agents

I can tell you categorically (because I know some) that there are in fact Muslim women who cover who feel that way about Western fashion dictates for women. And certainly there are non-Muslim women who feel that way about Islamic clothing rules. I think the cartoon is interesting because it shows a mutual alienation that does in fact happen right now between those two groups of women.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #103)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 06:43 PM

108. Yes, but feelings are not reality.

The bikini woman can put on a shirt and pants with no consequences. The full-burqa woman can't do shit but run to another country.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:44 PM

13. I've said it for years: Western men want their women naked; Middle Eastern men, completely covered.

 

Brothers, though, under the skin.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:13 PM

23. Western men may want that, but they have nothing to say about what we wear.

BIG difference between that and what happens in the Middle East.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:04 PM

77. Geez you've been wrong for years.

We aren't stamped from some mold to be brothers under the skin.
You'd be happy if I made a broad brush statement about you and your fellow women?

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #77)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 05:57 PM

117. I was alluding to the expression about "Molly O'Grady and the Captain's Lady...." And in any

 

case, sociologists and anthropologists make general statements about cultures as a matter of course.

Your earlier post about the beach you visit is not the point, when one speaks of cultural influences.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #13)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 01:44 PM

113. I would characterize that as one of the more grossly unfair statements recently posted on DU

You may have been saying it for years, but I know a guy who's said for years that women are money-grubbing golddiggers. Neither of you is correct, as far as I am able to determine, and neither position is greatly helpful.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #113)

Tue Jan 6, 2015, 05:58 PM

118. I guess the Pop culture I've observed and the one you've observed differ. (You DID see the OP?)

 

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:44 PM

14. I would def choose the bikini (nt)

 

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:46 PM

15. pretty deep

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:56 PM

16. I don't think there is a "western standard of beauty."

I think there may be a "commercial standard" but that is more reflected in what the market wants as opposed to sneakily convincing people that's what they want. When women choose to show their bodies off in western culture they are not doing so because of a male dominated culture, it's just a part of a natural expression. If anything, male dominated cultures would want them to cover it up.

50 years ago a two piece would've been very very risque. 60-70 years ago it would've been illegal in the US.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:58 PM

17. Women are not forced to wear bikinis

 

No one on the beach in America is going to walk up to a woman and assault her, arrest her, or kill her because she's not wearing a bikini. But that might happen in places in the mid-east.

If women in America don't want to wear bikinis...then don't!

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:58 PM

18. Do women get abducted, arrested and viciously beaten for wearing bikinis?

Or is it purely their choice whether to wear one, with no consequences if they choose not to?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 07:58 PM

19. Not sure which is worse? Seriously?

 

In general, the woman on the left is legally authorized to choose her own wardrobe.

You know, I get hyperbole... but this is not it. It is ridiculous. I suspect that there are very few people who wouldn't trade places with the woman in the bikini in a heartbeat.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:00 PM

20. Where in the West are women beaten with wands by religious zealots for not wearing a bikini?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:06 PM

21. Hmm, proudly claiming my sexuality or shrouded and disappeared?

 

What a difficult choice...


NOT!



This is slut shaming women for choosing to claim their sexuality by implying the bikini is somehow dictated for women to wear by a male patriarchal culture. News flash! Some of us LIKE wearing a bikini on a beach and refuse to be shamed for doing so.

(Preferably topless as well!)

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:32 PM

26. Plus, men don't exactly wear long sleeves at the beach either.

 

Indeed, in many places people of both genders wear nothing at all.

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:12 PM

30. I swim laps every day at my community pool.

 

Today three families came in. All three women were completely covered in long coats to the ground as well as very LONG hijabs folded so far over their faces they had no peripheral vision. They sat in the bleachers while the husbands and kids frolicked in the water. All three husbands were wearing "Speedo" type bathing suits.

The double standards just amaze me.


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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:09 PM

22. I don't have to wear a bikini.

Big difference.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:04 PM

89. Both women in the cartoon are in the USA. Neither " have to" wear what they are wearirng

It's really, really intriguing to me how many people consistently (this cartoon is a few years old) see the woman in niqaab as "not American".

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:02 PM

29. In the tiny nation of Butan, the only nation that has a

"Happiness index" that public officals try to increase, women were not known to suffer from anorexia or bulimia.

Then recently one thing changed. The nation got TV's in many of its homes.

And suddenly women there suffered from those ailments just like their Western nation counterparts.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:25 AM

50. Yeah. Having access to information is worse than being stoned to death. nt

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:19 PM

32. oddly enuff many men wear bikinis but Ive never seen ONE man wear a burka AND

females wearing a bikini is a choice. doubt that wearing a burka is usually a choice

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:32 PM

36. The Bikini is now being forced upon women?

Awful comparison.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:42 PM

37. You can't win an argument ...

with human nature.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:48 PM

38. sunbathing

When one of those gets tired of luxuriating in the sun, and swimming, and surfing, and boating, and being water active instead of passive, without drowning in 50 pounds of wet entangling robes, she can put on a burka, and no one will have her killed.

Don't men and women wear about the same skin exposed swimwear at the beach or pool?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:51 PM

39. That's the stupidest goddamn thing I've ever seen.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 10:26 PM

41. Where is this, Ferenginar? n/t

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:21 AM

45. Yeah, no one is going to throw stones at me, or imprison me, for NOT wearing a bikini

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 03:26 AM

47. In one culture a woman can choose to wear a Bikini, Burka or anything in between.

The other culture not so much, but good try with the cartoon.

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Response to dilby (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:56 PM

84. And you fell for the trap: they're both in the same country

They're passing each other on the street. Neither is legally required to wear what they are wearing. Both face social pressures. Both think the other are oppressed because of how they "have to" dress.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:15 PM

96. and as often as you repeat it, you miss the point

Yes, women in the US are not required to wear bikinis or burqas. But there are cultural and religious imperatives that do effectively force some women to wear burqas or be ostracized or worse. No women in the US is ostracized for wearing a one pieces bathing suit (or for going to the beach in shorts and a tee shirt or any other damn thing she might choose to wear).

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Response to onenote (Reply #96)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:18 PM

97. How many niqaab wearing women do you actually know?

I'm betting the number is low.

The fact that you continued the OP's troubling mistake of calling that outfit a "burqa" is a sign...

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Response to Recursion (Reply #97)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:46 PM

106. You'd lose that bet.

Ever hear of Dar Al-Hijrah? It's one of the larger mosques in the northeast. Attendance at worship service numbers in the thousands. I live a mile from it (and have for 50 years). There are many women in the are who wear niqab in the immediate vicinity. They work at some of the stores where I shop. (By the way, like a lot of people, I tend not to use burka to refer both to niqab and the more complete covering that is a burka; and while I'm not sure how it impacts this discussion, if it will make you happy, I will never do so again). By the way, if the cartoon depicted a woman wearing a hajib instead of a niqab, would it have been any different?

In any event, based on discussions I have had with some of these women (including discussions at interfaith gatherings sponsored by local synagogues) is that the women who wear the niqab feel a cultural imperative to do so-- just as some Jewish men (e.g., Hasids) feel a cultural imperative to to dress in black, wear hats and tzitzis. WIthin their peer group, they would feel uncomfortable not wearing the niqab.

In contrast, I don't think there is a comparable cultural imperative for women to wear bikinis. I've never been to a beach in which all, or even most, of the women in attendance wore bikinis (although I have been to beaches in which all or most of the women -- and men --wore nothing at all.

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Response to onenote (Reply #106)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:57 PM

107. Ask one of them what *she* thinks about bikinis

And the social pressures on western women as regards clothing. That disconnect (neither fundamentally believes that the other is making a free choice of her own) is what the cartoon is about.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #107)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 11:35 PM

110. I find that as relevant as what Clarence Thomas thinks re: A.A. Issues

Sure, they're both members of the discriminated groups in question, but they have bought into philosophies that make their opinion on what equality is completely biased and worthless.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 03:31 AM

48. Hmm

 

Not sure how to respond to this. Awaiting word from Moscow.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 03:36 AM

49. Not this dumb argument again.

Women do not have to wear skimpy bikini bathing suits if they choose not to.

Women in fundamentalist muslim cultures HAVE TO cover their slutty looking hair and their seductive faces, or face the consequences.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:11 AM

51. this is stupid, and why the comparison of what someone wears at the beach to everyday

wear ?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 11:48 AM

54. what an incredible load of crap - stupid ignorant comparion.

not sure which western women have been stoned to death for not wearing a bikini.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 12:08 PM

55. False equivalency seems to be popular in politics these days. The GOP gets away with it a lot.

This is another example of false equivalency.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 12:43 PM

56. Objectified or Covered

Some of you are being ridiculous. Many, many, many women choose to wear a burka as a way of respecting themselves and their deity. Not all burka wearers are forced to do so or live in countries where they'll be killed if they don't. I think it should be obvious that this is not what is being compared here. Talk about creating false analogies, ugh.

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Response to prayin4rain (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 12:48 PM

58. The false equivalency is what is ridiculous.

Even if we accept your premise that the discussion should be only regarding those situation where the women wearing Burka's have a choice, there is no male equivalent to the Burka in the culture where it is worn by women so it is inherently sexist.

In the case of bikinis, there are speedos for men. Even though we don't see them a lot in the US, there is other swimwear for men that is fairly revealing.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 12:52 PM

59. They are instructed by their faith

not societal ideals.

The mere existence of bikini type options for men has barely any relevance at all and i think you know that.

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Response to prayin4rain (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 03:39 PM

73. "Instructed by their faith?" How does that even make sense?

Was Eve wearing a Burka? Does their religion tell them that God hates the human form?

If a woman "chooses" to wear a Burka it's because they've been indoctrinated to believe that some magical deity is ashamed of their body. It's neanderthal.

Religion is everything that is wrong with this planet. Every fucking religion shames people who enjoy sex. It's stupid. Consensual Sex with someone you love is just about the most fun you can have as a human being. Yet ALL religions try to shame you for feeling that joy.

When God himself tells me women should wear Burkas then I'll fucking believe it, until then, all these religious "laws" are man made, and used to control people, and they can shove that up their ass.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #73)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 03:44 PM

74. I, personally, am not a person of a particular faith.

However, some women are persons of faith. Nuns, for example. And some of those women are instructed by their faith to perform certain rituals, wear certain garments, etc.

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Response to prayin4rain (Reply #74)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 03:51 PM

75. Yeah, like I said... indoctrinated. And Nuns choose to be Nuns...

Also Nuns are no longer required to wear Habits.

Many of these women in the Middle East are not given a choice. And the ones who try to tell us that are usually silenced.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #75)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:00 PM

76. Many nuns do anyway, many don't.

Many Muslim women choose to, many are forced to, got it, got it, got it, got it.
My comment NEVER implied that the forcing and violence do not occur. Point, again, is that is OBVIOUSLY, not what the poster is taking about.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 01:31 PM

62. "In the case of bikinis, there are speedos for men."

Work what ya momma gave you, boyfriend!




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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 01:34 PM

63. LMAO, my eyes! I'm blind!

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:35 PM

70. Pony Mind Bleach!

 

PONY MIND BLEACH!!

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:21 PM

100. I've certainly heard basically that argument verbatim from women who cover



It's not like the cartoonist pulled it out of nowhere. I think the point is both the women in the cartoon are alienated from one another and refuse to see the other's agency.

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Response to prayin4rain (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 01:25 PM

61. Covering is objectification. They are instructed to be covered to avoid tempting men.

That takes the onus off of the person who pretends their personal failing was someone else's fault.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 01:53 PM

64. That's the western interpretation. Many of them

believe through their faith that modesty is a virtue and cover themselves, by their own choice, to respect themselves and their deity.

Many women of all faiths try to find ways to be received primarily for their personality, intellect, goodwill, etc. instead of how appeasing they look to the dominant gender in their society. Many women are happy to try to garner favor with their bodies.

Point is, the poster was not setting up a: wearing a bikini to the beach for a swim vs. being stoned to death for wearing a burka comparison. The many implications that they were are dishonest.

It was more like a: living in a society where you feel worthless/invisible unless you look like the woman in the picture vs. living in a society where you must go unseen, but therefore must be judged on something other than aesthetics comparison.

Or showing how each society seeks to marginalize women by placing the amount of focus that each do on women's looks, albeit in different ways.

The strawmen avalanche just really irritated me.

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Response to prayin4rain (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:00 PM

65. "The many implications that they were is dishonest."

What's dishonest is pretending women aren't being killed for failing to cover up.

On March 11, 2002, a fire at a girls' school in Mecca, Saudi Arabia killed fifteen people, all young girls. The event was especially notable due to complaints that Saudi Arabia's "religious police" (aka the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice) stopped schoolgirls from leaving the burning building and hindered rescue workers because the girls were not wearing correct Islamic dress.[1] As Hanny Megally, Executive Director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch put it, "Women and girls may have died unnecessarily because of extreme interpretations of the Islamic dress code. State authorities with direct and indirect responsibility for this tragedy must be held accountable."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls%27_school_fire


And there are plenty of other stories of women being stoned, mutilated, splashed with acid, forced to marry rapists, etc. because the woman -- not the man -- is being held responsible. That's not my interpretation, that is their outright stated reason for their conduct and watching the apologia for it is stomach churning.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:05 PM

66. Just, uuugghhhhhh. n/t

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:29 PM

68. Oops. Didn't see your link before I posted

 

the very same one. Great minds think alike, I guess.

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Response to prayin4rain (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:31 PM

81. Fear of being stoned to death is not "modesty." n/t

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Response to prayin4rain (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:28 PM

67. Read this and get back to me.

 

"On March 11, 2002, a fire at a girls' school in Mecca, Saudi Arabia killed fifteen people, all young girls. The event was especially notable due to complaints that Saudi Arabia's "religious police" (aka the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice) stopped schoolgirls from leaving the burning building and hindered rescue workers because the girls were not wearing correct Islamic dress. As Hanny Megally, Executive Director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch put it, "Women and girls may have died unnecessarily because of extreme interpretations of the Islamic dress code. State authorities with direct and indirect responsibility for this tragedy must be held accountable."

More at[: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls%27_school_fire

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #67)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:32 PM

69. He did a few minutes before you posted

 

Apparently he doesn't have a problem with what happened.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 02:49 PM

71. This is absurd - when bikinis become mandatory, then you'll have an equivalence. N.T.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 03:09 PM

72. I understand the cartoon's point and the objections.

Objectifying women is too common. In some cultures women wear burkas because seeing them is too stimulating for men, or because they for to not show themselves. In some cultures women wear bikinis, high heels, revealing or sexualizing clothing, because make dominated advertising tells them to do so to attract sexual attention or because the are string enough in their sexuality to show themselves openly.

Women in the USA do not get stoned for not wearing revealing clothing, but they do get passed over for higher salaried promotions as well as bullied for not looking feminine enough. And it is thrown in our faces daily in most media that we need to "look pretty", too many women suffer from anorexia and bulemia which is very harmful to their bodies.

Being able to dress as you want is something too many women, and men, are not able to do.

So rather than dismissing your cartoon with an insult, I find it an interesting comparison, with it having accuracies and inaccuracies. Thank you for the post.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:22 PM

78. Pampango, why do you think this is a "great" cartoon?

 



And why do you think a bikini is a symbol of a male dominated culture?

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #78)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:39 PM

82. It shows that objectification of women exists in both cultures though it is much more harshly

enforced in one than in the other.

I did not mean to imply equivalency in the two cultures' treatment of women but that objectification of women is something common to both. If you don't think the bikini is a manifestation of our (male dominated) culture objectifying women, then we differ on that.

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Response to pampango (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:13 PM

94. ok. Then we completely disagree.

 

Last edited Wed Dec 31, 2014, 11:46 PM - Edit history (1)

I've already said why in an earlier post

Edited to add I'm curious about how you react to so many DUers NOT seeing or agreeing with your interpretation of this cartoon. ..

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #78)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:59 PM

85. I know several hijab-wearing women who think that about swimwear, FWIW (nt)

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:28 PM

79. Slaves of fashion. But, at least neither are obliged to wear hats.

 

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:29 PM

80. I think the point here is choice. If you could choose it would not matter.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 04:54 PM

83. Interesting how wrong most of the replies are -- the two women are in the same country

They're both in the US (or "the West", broadly). Neither the woman in the bikini nor the woman in niqaab (that's not a burqa, incidentally) are legally required to wear what they are wearing. Both probably face social pressures about how they dress, though.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:18 PM

98. Why do you assume that?

 

I read the cartoon as two disparate cultures casting judgement on each other, not necessarily in the same country.

Furthermore, there's no indication this is based in the west, it could just as easily be a day on say, an Egyptian beach

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #98)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:20 PM

99. They're physically passing each other on the sidewalk

it could just as easily be a day on say, an Egyptian beach

True, and the argument would still stand, though I think you're more likely to see that juxtaposition in the west than in the middle east.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #99)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 07:25 PM

109. Cartoonists take liberties with locations all the time. I didn't think they were in the same country

 

Not a bit and frankly, I would dispute that you'd see THAT particular juxtaposition of a niqabi and a bikini on the average western beach - far more likely in a culture like Egypt imho where niqab is more common yet the beach resorts are full of westerners and Israelis.



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Response to Recursion (Reply #83)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 01:47 PM

114. I can't view it from my workplace computer--is it an unaltered photograph?

Or is it a cartoon?

If the former, then your point is interesting, and we should certainly discuss the juxtaposition of these two women (which might also occur in a number of European countries, I should think.)

If it's a cartoon, then I have a cartoon that shows Superman fighting Spider-Man. What are we to draw from this, other than the fact that the cartoonist in each case hoped to convey a statement through a fictionalized meeting of two disparate dramatic elements?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 05:23 PM

102. We shouldn't judge other cultures without fully examining our own.

No major society on Earth is blameless in its treatment of women.

And now, here's a picture of a lovely woman enjoying the beach in a burkini.

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