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Some folks seem more OK with the defense of torture and torturers, (Original Post) MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 OP
Post removed Post removed Dec 2014 #1
Better delete or change that or they will alert on you. (I told ya) L0oniX Dec 2014 #5
Truth hurts, I suppose. morningfog Dec 2014 #7
It has gotten bad. MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #9
I don't approve of that hide. 840high Dec 2014 #97
Neither do I ...I just knew it would happen because...(explanation hidden by jacked jury decision) L0oniX Dec 2014 #118
I know who "they" are. 840high Dec 2014 #182
neither do I nt grasswire Dec 2014 #173
+1 Scuba Dec 2014 #199
Neither do I. Is DU still a discussion forum? Owl Dec 2014 #211
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Dec 2014 #16
Are you seriously comparing Obama's role in this to Bush's? KamaAina Dec 2014 #41
To some not prosecuting the criminals means you are the same as the criminals...logical fails are Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #51
Do you not understand the concept of Accessory After the Fact? 99Forever Dec 2014 #54
I do, and clearly you do not...accessory after the fact....funny. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #55
You understand jack. 99Forever Dec 2014 #65
Amen. 840high Dec 2014 #208
Not to mention, appointing a collaborator, Brennan, to head the CIA sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #209
Do you realize that when a serious crime is discovered nilesobek Dec 2014 #142
It's what he does, it's his thing... SidDithers Dec 2014 #64
You better believe it! zappaman Dec 2014 #67
The irony of your post is LOL. Odin2005 Dec 2014 #121
... SidDithers Dec 2014 #128
... Odin2005 Dec 2014 #131
... SidDithers Dec 2014 #133
You win the Internet! MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #146
... sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #155
Thanks! I was just going to go with "... :rofl:", but thought that Sid would... Odin2005 Dec 2014 #206
Same thing. 840high Dec 2014 #98
The banality of evil. [n/t] Maedhros Dec 2014 #135
What kind of person..? kentuck Dec 2014 #2
"Folks". L0oniX Dec 2014 #4
heh. SammyWinstonJack Dec 2014 #76
According to a fairly recent poll, a majority of Americans support the use of torture. Maedhros Dec 2014 #136
Whatever else it is, this is a graphic illustration of the concept KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #161
Partisanship is evident in that poll. Registered voters! I would like sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #210
If they are in the Dem party then I am ashamed of them. Disgusting! L0oniX Dec 2014 #3
We live in a propaganda state now. woo me with science Dec 2014 #6
I'd post my Gobbels award meme but it already got me a hide once. L0oniX Dec 2014 #8
Who the fuck here is defending torturers, for fuck sake. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #10
Folks are defending the defenders of torture MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #12
Got a new word du jour, Manny? I can't wait until ... 11 Bravo Dec 2014 #21
Total Bull Andy823 Dec 2014 #29
We know have official acknowledgement that War Crimes were committed by sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #56
Prosecute them all Andy823 Dec 2014 #104
is Obama seeking investigations and prosecutions? Scootaloo Dec 2014 #59
You got alerted on for this comment. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #37
What "DU folks" are defending torture? zappaman Dec 2014 #49
Lol~ sheshe2 Dec 2014 #115
Oh, I know the act by now. zappaman Dec 2014 #124
I got a hide because one juror didn't think I fetched a link fast enough, LOL! bettyellen Dec 2014 #157
You're DU famous! zappaman Dec 2014 #163
I want to front the band now! So... bettyellen Dec 2014 #165
Yeah yeah yeah zappaman Dec 2014 #169
My hair is even better, my follicles ARE the eighties! bettyellen Dec 2014 #170
Objectification. MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #176
Someone else expressed interest in the jury results on this comment, so Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #200
Just viewed another thread where a DUer actually posted, "We've been torturing since the dawn of the Doctor_J Dec 2014 #52
That person doesn't know his/her history truebluegreen Dec 2014 #77
Thank you for that quote. Just read it the other day and wondered what sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #156
As I recall from my study of the Revolution truebluegreen Dec 2014 #202
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Dec 2014 #11
Snowden comes to mind. nt sheshe2 Dec 2014 #110
and boom goes the dynamite...nt SidDithers Dec 2014 #129
;) sheshe2 Dec 2014 #132
+ a gazillion Spazito Dec 2014 #186
Look at who is saying it, no surprise at all. Rex Dec 2014 #13
Who is defending torture, Rex? Have you alerted on these posts? nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #26
Where did I mention DUers in my post? Rex Dec 2014 #27
What Manny posted above Andy823 Dec 2014 #33
I've seen one person on DU give excuses for why we tortured people. Rex Dec 2014 #38
I understand why it happened helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #45
But do you condone torture? That is the question. Rex Dec 2014 #48
No I don't condone it but I can see where it could be used under some helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #62
Such as? Rex Dec 2014 #66
I know in most cases it has proved to be unreliable helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #72
No, just in what scenario would it be okay to torture someone. Rex Dec 2014 #78
I don't have any children but I can see my self pretty helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #82
12 years one man was tortured daily marym625 Dec 2014 #94
I could never understand why they tortured in the first place. They know it doesn't work Rex Dec 2014 #107
If you aren't talking about DUers...then who? I mean, if malaise were to write that msanthrope Dec 2014 #34
Well the OP didn't state that he was talking about DU, not all of us are on a witch Rex Dec 2014 #42
Come on Rex, you know it is implied. sheshe2 Dec 2014 #86
Implied or expected? I just read his OP and had a thought, don't make that into a crime. Rex Dec 2014 #91
It was right here... zappaman Dec 2014 #96
My fault I should have read the replies before posting. Rex Dec 2014 #101
I was angry with you before so I didn't reply.....I'm glad you read thread and edits. nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #150
You know something Rex? sheshe2 Dec 2014 #103
Thanks. Rex Dec 2014 #105
... sheshe2 Dec 2014 #106
Always. Rex Dec 2014 #108
Yep, it's all the usual suspects. Odin2005 Dec 2014 #123
Folks with a limited capacity for morality as well as empathy Dragonfli Dec 2014 #14
Imagine a repuke POTUS using the term "Folks"...they'd have to put DU in Defcon 1 mode. L0oniX Dec 2014 #15
+1000000 liberal_at_heart Dec 2014 #17
Yes, indeed. hifiguy Dec 2014 #31
Only an enemy of the Dem party would say things that inspire Dems to not vote. L0oniX Dec 2014 #43
or a racist Doctor_J Dec 2014 #50
I believe DU has been infiltrated by enemies ...and not just recently. L0oniX Dec 2014 #53
I believe DU has been infiltrated by unicorns...and not just recently. zappaman Dec 2014 #63
I could not agree with you more yet, sheshe2 Dec 2014 #181
So this is how the Republic dies, to glorious applause. Odin2005 Dec 2014 #125
"What sort of government have hifiguy Dec 2014 #139
bu$h used the term "folks" Art_from_Ark Dec 2014 #32
I believe the word "Folks" was also used on Hee Haw and the Beverly Hillbilly's. L0oniX Dec 2014 #47
So now using the word 'folks' is really supporting torture (in soup brain code language). LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #71
WTF? LMFAO L0oniX Dec 2014 #84
the folksy use of "folks" is a snake-oil technique bbgrunt Dec 2014 #87
good griefy great green gobs of greasy grimey gopher guts. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #90
so now Obama is a snakeoil salesman? sheshe2 Dec 2014 #112
and that makes Obama Just like Boosh! He uses some same words! LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #85
Some folks belong at Discussionist. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #18
It's the Circling the Wagons syndrome Aerows Dec 2014 #19
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Dec 2014 #20
And then there's "I SHOOT." 11 Bravo Dec 2014 #22
I think Manny should tell us who these DUers are. They deserve to have their msanthrope Dec 2014 #25
I just got through reading about this in three international newspapers. Everyone is talking Number23 Dec 2014 #114
*gasp! You said 'folks'! LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #126
And you my dear Number23 just nailed it. sheshe2 Dec 2014 #130
You could write a book about the belittling of Obama. joshcryer Dec 2014 #134
Not a book, maybe, but an article from yesterday. greatauntoftriplets Dec 2014 #203
Good article. joshcryer Dec 2014 #205
You Better Believe It! nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #151
Well said! Spazito Dec 2014 #189
Spaz, I don't know why I expected differently here. This place is GONE and has been forever Number23 Dec 2014 #193
I cannot believe how low some will go to try and smear President Obama... Spazito Dec 2014 #194
If the Foo shits.. nt truebluegreen Dec 2014 #79
+100 n/t zappaman Dec 2014 #80
LOL. That shouldn't make me laugh, but yes it did. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #122
+100000000 woo me with science Dec 2014 #23
P.E.S.A.A.C. sheshe2 Dec 2014 #113
Show us Andy823 Dec 2014 #36
They can't do anything when they are in the majority because of the Blue Dog/Conservative/3rd Way stillwaiting Dec 2014 #58
Prosecutions for war crimes are not a legislative action Scootaloo Dec 2014 #61
They aren't an EXECUTIVE action, either. MADem Dec 2014 #137
"The Judicial Branch doesn't bow to the POTUS." Scootaloo Dec 2014 #140
Pardon me--Department of Justice. MADem Dec 2014 #143
No. MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #144
Sorry, you're wrong. From your very own cite: MADem Dec 2014 #147
So Obama didn't order Holder to stop defending Doma? nt MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #148
I am surprised that a Nixon aficionado (given your avatar, and your prior posts on Nixon) does not msanthrope Dec 2014 #158
Nixon afficianado MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #164
Well, shit....I'm just looking at your avatar, and like any good DUer can, they can google your msanthrope Dec 2014 #167
Heheh... MADem Dec 2014 #187
Many thanks! I like History! nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #196
It likes you, too-you're quite skilled at it! MADem Dec 2014 #197
Class dismissed. Bobbie Jo Dec 2014 #166
I know they teach civics at Cornell. I know they do. nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #168
So this isn't true: MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #174
I am stunned that a person of your education would conflate the terms "ordered" and "concluded." nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #175
In this instance, what is the functional difference? nt MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #177
Manny, can you name the vehicle by which the President orders the AG to do something? msanthrope Dec 2014 #180
So I guess your functional answer is "no difference, Manny" MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #183
No, Manny...my answer is exactly as I wrote....since you insist you are correct, kindly msanthrope Dec 2014 #195
He told them that the government had no "defense" save a few Republicans saying "Ewwww." MADem Dec 2014 #185
The AG is independent of the White House, you need a link? Miss civics classes also? Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #207
Please name them. Come on now...if there are DUers doing such an atrocity...then name them! msanthrope Dec 2014 #24
yes, they should be alerted JI7 Dec 2014 #28
Absolutely!!! nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #30
He can't Andy823 Dec 2014 #39
+1 JustAnotherGen Dec 2014 #40
I think you mean ... JoePhilly Dec 2014 #44
Allow me. Doctor_J Dec 2014 #57
How is that defending torture? zappaman Dec 2014 #60
Not only did you only express one tiny sentiment from that post Number23 Dec 2014 #152
He demanded links from posters last night... sheshe2 Dec 2014 #149
Who the you talkin bout now Manny? BootinUp Dec 2014 #35
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Dec 2014 #46
... SidDithers Dec 2014 #68
Where are these people claiming to be Democrats who are so blatantly making excuses for war? zappaman Dec 2014 #69
yep, that's exactly what all the "BHO didn't call torturers Patriots!!!" BS stupidicus Dec 2014 #70
It's a complete joke RedCappedBandit Dec 2014 #73
Shark jumping time. Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #74
Maybe it's time for a new persona to go with the always hilarious "Third Way Manny"? zappaman Dec 2014 #75
Really Manny? sheshe2 Dec 2014 #81
And some folks are more than OK ... NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #83
"Et fuckin' cetera." sheshe2 Dec 2014 #88
So what you are saying is that we have people here that don't agree with each other. Rex Dec 2014 #92
It would be a pretty dull place ... NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #99
Well we have sub-groups for echo chambers, but you are so right. Rex Dec 2014 #111
+1,000 !!!! nt MADem Dec 2014 #138
Well said! zappaman Dec 2014 #93
How does one 'disagree' with people against torture? leftstreet Dec 2014 #95
It's not a matter of disagreement on torture ... NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #100
That's what you said it was leftstreet Dec 2014 #109
You're right. NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #116
A fucking men, Nance. And it will probably get you a hide, but I applaud you for saying it! bettyellen Dec 2014 #162
Oh, I'm getting used to the "hides". NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #178
OMG- juror #1 hates me too! *high five* bettyellen Dec 2014 #179
... NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #191
Some folks have never seen a Benghazi they didn't pile on. ucrdem Dec 2014 #89
NAME NAMES MANNY! snooper2 Dec 2014 #102
Yes it is disgusting to see people defend torture. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #117
People are in denial. They don't want to admnit that the man they adore and voted for twice... Odin2005 Dec 2014 #119
He does? zappaman Dec 2014 #120
He thought torture was so okay, he stopped it 2 days into his Presidency with an EO. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #127
And "extraordinary rendition"? MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #145
Obama fooled us all by ending torture!! Bwaaaah! He's the saaaaame! bettyellen Dec 2014 #160
Post removed Post removed Dec 2014 #153
Seriously? We are in denial? sheshe2 Dec 2014 #154
What a load. nt Bobbie Jo Dec 2014 #141
You dumped another load on DU Manny. sheshe2 Dec 2014 #159
I suck. MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #184
True that~ sheshe2 Dec 2014 #188
No. MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #190
*SPLAT* bettyellen Dec 2014 #171
Manny Manny Manny. Autumn Dec 2014 #172
Do I get my spanking now? MannyGoldstein Dec 2014 #192
Manny I'm gonna talk to your wife and see if we can hook you up with a couple of Autumn Dec 2014 #204
and then when you ask if torturers should be prosecuted grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #198
Or say they should be pardoned instead. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #201

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
118. Neither do I ...I just knew it would happen because...(explanation hidden by jacked jury decision)
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:54 PM
Dec 2014

I can't say why this happens because they will alert on me ...and by the term "they" I mean (this was also hidden by jacked out jury decision).

Response to Post removed (Reply #1)

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
41. Are you seriously comparing Obama's role in this to Bush's?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:14 PM
Dec 2014

Bush and his cabal, notably Kinda Sleazy Rice, actively encouraged the use of torture. Obama merely tolerated it.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
51. To some not prosecuting the criminals means you are the same as the criminals...logical fails are
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:19 PM
Dec 2014

a sickness on the Internet.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
65. You understand jack.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:34 PM
Dec 2014

Letting known admitted perpetrators of Crimes Against Humanity walk free is aiding and abetting those criminals and is IN FACT the action Accessory After the Fact. Pretend it isn't so, bury your head in the sand. Those of us with MORALS and consciences KNOW better. The corruption reeks like a dead rotting body.

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
142. Do you realize that when a serious crime is discovered
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 11:24 PM
Dec 2014

that its a crime NOT to report it?

For instance, if you found out that someone you knew committed a murder but waited 6 years to report it that would be a serious crime.

Can't we just cut through the crap and admit that the torturers are so powerful, so well armed, that not even our military or our police paramilitary forces can arrest them?

I don't mean to come off as sanctimonious over this but I have to constantly watch myself, that I obey every law, because there is a cop under every rock around here. So I wear my seatbelt, I bought insurance, I don't jaywalk or break any laws, no matter how trivial because if I don't there will be certain punishment. But the big shots of murder and torture don't have to worry about any punishment at all.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
64. It's what he does, it's his thing...
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:32 PM
Dec 2014

Eventually, you just learn to laugh, and walk slowly away.

Sid

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
206. Thanks! I was just going to go with "... :rofl:", but thought that Sid would...
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 10:51 AM
Dec 2014

misinterpret that into me agreeing with him!

kentuck

(110,950 posts)
2. What kind of person..?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 06:01 PM
Dec 2014

...would even attempt to defend torture? I certainly would not want to be in the same Party with them.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
136. According to a fairly recent poll, a majority of Americans support the use of torture.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 10:40 PM
Dec 2014

Including 45% of registered Democrats.

[img]?w=610&h=475[/img]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/senate-torture-report-public-opinion/

Note the big positive jump right after Obama's inauguration. How's that for integrity?

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
161. Whatever else it is, this is a graphic illustration of the concept
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:18 AM
Dec 2014

of 'lesser of two evils'

Joking aside, that's really an eye-opener. Tanks for posting it. Bookmarking for future use.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
210. Partisanship is evident in that poll. Registered voters! I would like
Sat Dec 13, 2014, 02:44 AM
Dec 2014

to see a poll of the majority of Americans, those who are registered as Independents, now approx 40% of Registered voters, the largest voting bloc, together with a poll of the millions who no longer participate in the system.

That poll only represents partisans.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
12. Folks are defending the defenders of torture
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 06:20 PM
Dec 2014

I don't mean that the folks being tortured are doing that.

11 Bravo

(23,922 posts)
21. Got a new word du jour, Manny? I can't wait until ...
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 06:52 PM
Dec 2014

the President is caught on tape passing gas. Just be careful when you try to beat that one to death.
(Because sharts can be socially embarrassing.)

Andy823

(11,495 posts)
29. Total Bull
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:08 PM
Dec 2014

Who is defending the defenders Manny? All I see is a bunch of the usual Obama bashers posting post after post twisting, and selectively editing things to try and make President Obama come off as supporting torture, and it's all just another load of BULL being put out by the same old shit stirs we see here every day.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
56. We know have official acknowledgement that War Crimes were committed by
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:25 PM
Dec 2014

the Cheney/Bush gang. Now the question is, will they be prosecuted? You can't sugar coat War Crimes. I KNOW we never did during the Bush era.

Is there any reason why now, since what we knew for so long, has been made official, that there will not be prosecutions?

Eg, the Spanish was in the process of prosecuting the Bush Six (for torture) a few years ago. Dems were elated, 'if WE don't do it, SOMEONE should'. Then we stopped hearing about it and wondered why.

And then we found out why. The Wikileaks Cables revealed that the US Government directly intervened to stop that prosecution. Not the Bush administration, this administration.

Can you explain that?

Btw, last I heard those prosecutions may be getting ready to proceed.

Andy823

(11,495 posts)
104. Prosecute them all
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:07 PM
Dec 2014

They deserve it. I am asking Manny who all these people on DU are who are supporting torture. I have not seen anyone here support torture, have you?

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
115. Lol~
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:42 PM
Dec 2014

Don't hold your breath, zap. I asked him for a link as well. You know he always asks for links, yet never gives one. So far I have heard crickets. I will give him more time, I know he will want to supply all the links. He may just be taking a nap after dinner.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
157. I got a hide because one juror didn't think I fetched a link fast enough, LOL!
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:10 AM
Dec 2014

I posted 3-4 links, LOL. Crickets. An an OP about me!

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
200. Someone else expressed interest in the jury results on this comment, so
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 09:04 AM
Dec 2014

here it is.

This poster is plainly, deliberately and without any ambiguity calling out " Just some DU folks " and accusing these vague "folks" of condoning torture. He provides no evidence, he just makes this nasty accusation. This post is ABUSIVE, accusatory, hurtful, rude, insensitive and most definitely over the top. For these reasons it is inappropriate and should be hidden. Enough of this divisive crap.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Dec 11, 2014, 03:18 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Who the heck alerted on this? For crying out loud.... Sheesh.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm voting to leave it. I would rather leave a really fucking stupid thread and posts by Manny than hide it.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Was going to vote to leave, by the alerter makes a good point, not a direct call out, (and I doubt this will be hidden) however a nasty post.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh good freaking grief. I know I've seen folks doing that. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Divisive crap my behind. Apparently the shoe fit enough that you feel you can wear it.


2-5 Leave.
 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
52. Just viewed another thread where a DUer actually posted, "We've been torturing since the dawn of the
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:20 PM
Dec 2014

republic", in defense of the president not holding Smirk responsible.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
77. That person doesn't know his/her history
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:53 PM
Dec 2014
“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.”
- George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

That'd be the dawn of the republic, I'm thinking.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
156. Thank you for that quote. Just read it the other day and wondered what
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:09 AM
Dec 2014

Washington would think of his country today.

We are so lacking in courageous leaders. Washington would be called a 'purist' if he were here today.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
202. As I recall from my study of the Revolution
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 09:39 AM
Dec 2014

the colonists were split fairly evenly into 3 parts: 1/3 for independence, 1/3 against and 1/3 neutral. Obviously it could have gone either way, but what we had to do to win was simply stay in the field. Washington avoided pitched battles where superior forces and training could overwhelm him, and concentrated on not losing. It was of great help to him that there were several occasions when the colonists rallied behind / joined the ranks of the American forces after actual or reported atrocities on the British side. Finally the British quit, after the disastrous siege and defeat at Yorktown.

So in a way, Washington's stance on torture, as contrasted with his opponents' (real or imagined), won the Revolutionary War. We have fallen a long way since then.

ETA: "Courage" is exactly what is lacking. I think a large part of our problems can be traced to the fact that conservatives--which in my view are by definition cowards--are ascendant. The only type of courage they do not lack is that of their convictions.

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
13. Look at who is saying it, no surprise at all.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 06:23 PM
Dec 2014

The mental gymnastic going on is at least silver worthy.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
27. Where did I mention DUers in my post?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:04 PM
Dec 2014

I don't see it in the OP either, is Manny talking about DU?

Andy823

(11,495 posts)
33. What Manny posted above
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:10 PM
Dec 2014
"Folks are defending the defenders of torture.

I don't mean that the folks being tortured are doing that. Just some DU folks."


 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
38. I've seen one person on DU give excuses for why we tortured people.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:13 PM
Dec 2014

Okay then yeah I too would like to see one post that a DUer made that states they clearly support torture. Like I said, I've seen one person make excuses as to why, but that is it.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
48. But do you condone torture? That is the question.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:18 PM
Dec 2014

I have a hard time believing a progressive would support torture of any kind.

So, why did it happen?

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
66. Such as?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:35 PM
Dec 2014

The only reason I ask, is that it is proven to be an unreliable method of extracting information.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
72. I know in most cases it has proved to be unreliable
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:46 PM
Dec 2014

You're asking me to give a scenario where I would be okay
with our government torturing some one?

I wouldn't know what kind to give other than some type of 24 kind of plot
Hours left with bombs placed and they have the person in custody .



 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
78. No, just in what scenario would it be okay to torture someone.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:53 PM
Dec 2014

We can make it abstract, just you...and what scenario would force you to go against your own compassionate nature?

I guess I am thinking more along the lines of the movie Prisoners - a man kidnaps or you think he kidnaps your child, you have no proof but he is suspicious and doesn't confirm or deny anything. You are afraid to go to the cops, he might kill your kid.

What would you do to?

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
82. I don't have any children but I can see my self pretty
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:05 PM
Dec 2014

much doing anything to save their lives if they were about to be murdered .

If I was sure but I don't think anyone really knows how they would react to that until
as a parent it happens to them.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
94. 12 years one man was tortured daily
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:44 PM
Dec 2014

One man for 12 years tortured by the US. Horrors, unspeakable horrors. Daily. Every. Fucking. Day.

What information could he possibly have had even after 6 months never mind after 12 fucking years?

And then, after he came to them, more came and they used the torture as a model on them all. Day after day. Week after week. Year after year.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
107. I could never understand why they tortured in the first place. They know it doesn't work
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:19 PM
Dec 2014

is immoral and illegal. Then again remember we are talking about Cheney and Rummy here - probably two of the sickest people to walk the planet today.

They both personally should have to answer to that man why they put him through meaningless cruelty and violence.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
34. If you aren't talking about DUers...then who? I mean, if malaise were to write that
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:10 PM
Dec 2014

I would know to turn on the tv right fuggin' now to MSNBC, but since you are posting this in GD, isn't the context GD? I mean, otherwise, wouldn't you give a link?

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
42. Well the OP didn't state that he was talking about DU, not all of us are on a witch
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:15 PM
Dec 2014

hunt.

Link? Do you ever read current event in the news on the internet?

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
86. Come on Rex, you know it is implied.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:23 PM
Dec 2014

You are a pretty fair person here at DU. So please read the responses bashing Obama and his supporters. Hmmmmm the first response was hidden another states two animals come to mind and there are more. You know darn well who was being referred to in the Op and who are being bashed in the comments.

Rex, for the record I do not condone torture and I don't like the Op implying that I do.

Peace~

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
91. Implied or expected? I just read his OP and had a thought, don't make that into a crime.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:38 PM
Dec 2014

Not me and don't speak for me thank you sheshe2. I read the OP and thought about Cheney and Rummy. Manny is not my enemy. You are not my enemy. Go kick his ass if you think he is bashing the POTUS.

For the record I don't think any progressives here condones torture. If he meant DUers, then he can supply a list.





zappaman

(20,605 posts)
96. It was right here...
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:51 PM
Dec 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025946103#post12

Until he wisely edited it.
It used to say "some folks on DU" condoned torture.

So, yeah, it's a game for him.

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
103. You know something Rex?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:04 PM
Dec 2014

I was not making your comment into a crime. I was not trying to speak for you or accuse you of anything. Sorry if you misunderstood that.

As I said, you are a fair person here, one I like to talk to.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
105. Thanks.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:14 PM
Dec 2014

I see I should have read the replies before posting, that was my mistake. Sorry for getting snippy. A few DUers have pointed out to me that he did reply to others he meant DU.

Like I said, I've seen zero DUers say, "gosh I like torture I don't see the problem." Reminds me of when he was making up numbers about Obamacare to scare people.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
108. Always.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:21 PM
Dec 2014

Keep up those threads BTW! You are right, we will get our revolution because the people have had enough injustice for far too long.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
14. Folks with a limited capacity for morality as well as empathy
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 06:23 PM
Dec 2014

Appear to consider war crimes and torture to be on the same level as parking tickets or rude behavior, things to "get over" as they are just "things folks do sometimes". Such folks feel we shouldn't be disgusted by, outraged over, or sanctimonious about such mistakes when they are made by some other folks, after all, sometimes even patriots do such things.

Those that worship folks with those limited capacities because of their office, or their dreamy smile simply don't understand why those of us that are fully functioning human beings with a normal capacity for morality and empathy may consider war crimes and torture heinous offenses that should be punished as the prosecutable international crimes that they in fact are.

They think we are making a big deal out of nothing, they have fallen to amorality.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
17. +1000000
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 06:30 PM
Dec 2014

If we had a Republican in the WH right now DU would be demanding Bush and Cheney be prosecuted. Instead we have a Democratic president who does not want to prosecute so party loyalists are going along to get along. It's really sad to see something as serious as torture be a political football.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
31. Yes, indeed.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:08 PM
Dec 2014

That was absolutely sickening.

It is readily apparent with hindsight that the reversal of most Bush policies and the prosecution of BFEE minions who shit on the Constitution or the banksters who Stole Everything was never, ever going to happen. It was all "off the table" from Day Fucking One. We wuz taken for a ride and chumped. I just can't bring myself to vote in presidential elections anymore.

And in two years we will probably get ANOTHER Clinton and ANOTHER FUCKING Bush. So ya want your right foot or your left removed with a hacksaw, like there's one goddamn bit of difference.

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
43. Only an enemy of the Dem party would say things that inspire Dems to not vote.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:15 PM
Dec 2014


We see or read that bullshit on DU often. IMO it is pathetic. Who else am I going to vote for? It's becoming more unimportant every day as it becomes more clear that it is all a good cop bad cop freak show that provides entertainment for the rich 1% ...but it's good to have hopes, dreams and goals ...I guess.

peace

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
181. I could not agree with you more yet,
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:51 AM
Dec 2014

we are not talking about the same people now are we.

Infiltrators come in all stripes and colors.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
139. "What sort of government have
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 11:16 PM
Dec 2014

you given us, Mr Franklin?"

"A republic. If you can keep it, madam."

We couldn't keep it. Too much greed, ignorance and phony jebus did it in for good.

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
47. I believe the word "Folks" was also used on Hee Haw and the Beverly Hillbilly's.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:18 PM
Dec 2014

Was Bush inspired by stupid TV shows?

 

LawDeeDah

(1,596 posts)
71. So now using the word 'folks' is really supporting torture (in soup brain code language).
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:44 PM
Dec 2014

Why does the word 'folks' bother some of you so much.
You have heard the President use this term many times before but this time it has been assigned this dangerous, seamy undertone.
'Foooolks' 'Folks!!'

folks ooo000ooo000 did you say 'folks'?

Do you hate folk music? Are they protectors of torturers too?

Lord, gotta laugh while I can!

bbgrunt

(5,281 posts)
87. the folksy use of "folks" is a snake-oil technique
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:30 PM
Dec 2014

to lower resistance to a message and make people feel to be part of a larger group. Limpballs uses it constantly. Obama uses it a lot too. A very popular car was once sold as a folksvagen.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
19. It's the Circling the Wagons syndrome
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 06:34 PM
Dec 2014

If it even remotely reflects badly upon President Obama, there are those here that would trot out witch-burning as a "rational" recourse.

I'm sick of the "Powerless" Democrats theme. They can't do anything when they are in the majority, they can't do anything when they are in the minority.

It's not that the *can't*, it's that it is financially and politically lucrative to turn a blind eye rather than prosecute crimes.

It makes me sick to my stomach. I support these people, then they turn around and stab their supporters in the back for the sake of expediency.

Response to Aerows (Reply #19)

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
25. I think Manny should tell us who these DUers are. They deserve to have their
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:03 PM
Dec 2014

objectionable posts juried.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
114. I just got through reading about this in three international newspapers. Everyone is talking
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:42 PM
Dec 2014

about how Bush knew, Bush knew, Bush knew. The biggest element to all of this has been the CIA's really surprising response to having their character assassinated ( ) by Bush's implication that he didn't know what they were doing. The CIA has come out with a HUGE response that calls the man a liar almost point blank. This is really unprecedented.

And yet, I come to DU and what is everybody talking about? "Well OBAMA said they were patriots!11" and "why won't OBAMA call for prosecutions??!" I mean GODDAMNIT. This has been in the news for ONE FULL DAY and already the Clown Crew has tried to hang this on Obama's neck.

THIS is why there aren't any "adult conversations" around here. And THIS is why half of these folks don't have a clue what the fuck is going on.

 

LawDeeDah

(1,596 posts)
126. *gasp! You said 'folks'!
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 10:07 PM
Dec 2014

You must be one of those torturer apologizers.

I kid you not, in one thread here tonight someone said something like: Duh (which wasn't said out loud), Bush used that word 'folks' too! Jumpin Jehosephats this place is riddled with ------------------!

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
130. And you my dear Number23 just nailed it.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 10:14 PM
Dec 2014

Let's see if I understand this thread and others.

Obama=Bush

Ergo Obama supports torture.

Ergo those that support Obama are POS that support torture

Ergo "Folks" has become an evil buzz word

Ergo take his words and edit them, not for what they meant but for what you want them to mean. It enhances your narrative and it sure as hell is going to get you the clicks that you so desperately need.

Ergo no fricking "adult conversation" will ever happen here at Democratic Underground. The children need to be sent to the corner for a time out. They are out of control. They need the naughty mat and sure as hell need to be talked down.

The Naughty Step Technique

The Naughty Step Technique for Discipline

This technique can be applied between the ages of 2 and 6 years old.

The “What If’s” of the Naughty Step.

1.) My child doesn’t want to look at me when I give them a warning, and puts their hands up over their ears. When a child has done something wrong the last thing they want hear is the authoritative voice of their parent. But trust me when I tell you they can hear every word you are saying. Hold their hands and bring them back down from their face, slow down your speech pattern and continue to give them a warning. Remember, this is your child trying to control the situation.

2.) When I take my child to the step, they keep trying to interrupt me, about what they did. And I never seem to get past step #2. When your child starts to give you a 1000 reasons why they misbehaved. Continue to explain why they are going to sit on the step and let them know that anything they want to talk about after the step is open for discuss. But for right now they are in timeout. This allows the child to realize that you mean what you say.

3.) I have to sit on my child to keep them on the naughty step as they keep running off. It is important for you to do the discipline technique properly and not be side tracked with trying to control what you see happening. Trust in the technique, every child who is strong willed and feisty will immediately get off the step and walk away from it. The reason why they do this is to test, to see whether you will put them back on it. Your follow through is critical to the success of being able to discipline your child for difficult and unruly behavior. Follow through, follow through , follow through.

4.) My child never wants to hear the second explanation. They just want to hug me and get off the step. At this stage it is normally because the child is now feeling sad, which means reflection has taken place, which is a good thing. If they go to hug you, tell them we will do hugs in a minute but it is important that you explain.

5.) Sometimes my child doesn’t want to say sorry and tells me to shut up and go away. There are normally 2 reasons why this happens, one is because the child is still extremely angry that they are being reprimanded. When they choose not to apologize it is important for you to leave them there for 30-40 seconds more until they have calmed down and ask for the apology. Sometimes the child will tell you to go away and seconds later get off the step themselves. This is when it is important to take them back to the step and tell them apologies happen on the step. The other reason is simply they just feel like they don’t have to apologize. And trust me I can trust you know that when a child is not willing to apologize, I can guarantee they live with parents that don’t apologize much either. In this case you will tell them if they are not prepared to apologize they can sit there a bit longer.

Oh Please Read More

http://www.jofrost.com/naughty-step-technique/


joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
205. Good article.
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 10:49 AM
Dec 2014
In his day, this president was castigated by the press and his political opponents as a "liar," a "despot," a "usurper," a "thief," a "monster," a "perjurer," an "ignoramus," a "swindler," a "tyrant," a "fiend," a "coward," a "buffoon," a "butcher," a "pirate," a "devil" and a "king." He was charged with being "cunning," "thickheaded," "heartless," "filthy" and "fanatical." He was accused of behaving "like a thief in the night," of being "the miserable tool of traitors and rebels," and of being "adrift on a current of racial fanaticism."

He was labeled by his enemies "Abraham Africanus the First."

But, of course, race had nothing to do with it then either.


Of course, those are all insults by the right, for the most part. You could still write a book about the left and right respectively. I can easily envision a thousand page book about the shit on Obama.

Thanks for the link (for anyone who can't read it due to a sub request Google the title and click the link).

Spazito

(49,765 posts)
189. Well said!
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 02:08 AM
Dec 2014

The reports I read from the international media and even the domestic ones are focused on bush and cheney yet here we have the usual crap by the same posters desperately trying to use this to smear the President yet again.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
193. Spaz, I don't know why I expected differently here. This place is GONE and has been forever
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 02:22 AM
Dec 2014

but sometimes even when you EXPECT to see foolishness, it still knocks you over the head.

The headlines on BBC, Sydney Morning Herald and other papers are all about Cheney throwing Bush under the bus and how the CIA is doing the same. THIS IS HUGE NEWS. Maybe these people trying desperately to make this all Obama all the time see this kind of stuff every day but this is really shocking stuff.

The Times (London) has a front page story on the CIA's really unusual, really strong defence of themselves and saying that Bush knew everything. I would not be surprised if the reason Cheney is covering his ass so forcefully is that he knows there's a chance for prosecutions to happen. This could potentially be the beginning of the stuff that half the people on this site have been BRAYING about for years. And instead of, "hey maybe, possibly this could be the beginning of Bush paying for his wildly criminal behaviors that have damaged this country, weakened our international reputation and damn near bankrupted us" instead we are regaled with impotent wails of "but OBAMA called them patriots!11one"

Sweet LORD in Heaven!! I just cannot BELIEVE how one-dimensional and focused on absolutely NOTHING so many people are here. Any minute now, I expect the (mind numbingly pointless and red herring-esque) ubiquitous Third Way insults to somehow make its way into this conversation, as it does with every damned thing else around here!!

Spazito

(49,765 posts)
194. I cannot believe how low some will go to try and smear President Obama...
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 02:33 AM
Dec 2014

I read something and think that is the lowest of the low yet, boom, along come another post that goes even lower.

"Third Way" "oligarchs" etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

"I just cannot BELIEVE how one-dimensional and focused on absolutely NOTHING so many people are here." I couldn't agree more!

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
113. P.E.S.A.A.C.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:36 PM
Dec 2014

Protect Edward Snowden at any Cost comes to mind. But that's just me~

You are a laugh riot here 1000

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
58. They can't do anything when they are in the majority because of the Blue Dog/Conservative/3rd Way
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:25 PM
Dec 2014

Dems, but it is VERY important that we elect them according to some people.

What that means ultimately is that we have ZERO chance in changing the direction that this country has been heading for 3 to 4 decades now. If the best we can do in many states is get a conservadem and that prevents us from doing many of the things that we say we stand for that will actually benefit average Americans then we are well and truly screwed. And, well, right now we ARE well and truly screwed because that is the reality that we have been dealing with for quite some time. Republicans WILL lose the trust of the people in this country (of course they will), but if the Democrats don't offer a vision and take steps that actually benefit the lives of average Americans (building support for ideas that WILL benefit Americans would be nice and calling out those that prevent them for passing legislation that would benefit Americans would be great) then average Americans will go right back to the Republicans. That is not rocket science.

Things won't begin to get better until we have a major overhaul of the Democratic Party that will allow for real progressive change to occur in this country. If we don't change the party then the U.S. will resemble developing countries more and more with every passing year (and that's clearly the plan the elites have for us).

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
61. Prosecutions for war crimes are not a legislative action
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:29 PM
Dec 2014

We're not talking about impeachment. The Senate is not going "Uh, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, would you plese appear at..." no. we're talking about bring the cops in, zip their fucking wrists and toss them in a tank until a trial date is set. We don't need to lick-ass the Republicans nor the third way. The Presidedent can pick up his phone and say one word to Holder - "prosecute' - and it is so.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
137. They aren't an EXECUTIVE action, either.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 11:05 PM
Dec 2014

You're saying, then, that the President could pick up the phone and tell Holder "Prosecute Scootaloo" and it is so?

Please.

The President is not the "boss" of the Attorney General. The Judicial Branch doesn't bow to the POTUS.

The last President who tried to tell an AG what to do was impeached and resigned to escape consequences. He can ask the AG to look into the matter, but he can't "tell" the AG to prosecute anyone.

And when people have immunity already, in order to get the material needed for the report, you can't go back and have a 2nd or 3rd bite of the apple.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
140. "The Judicial Branch doesn't bow to the POTUS."
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 11:22 PM
Dec 2014

The Department of Justice is part of the Executive branch, MADem.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
143. Pardon me--Department of Justice.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 11:58 PM
Dec 2014

The AG is independent from the POTUS in matters of prosecution and does not bow to him. He doesn't work "for" Obama, any more than Janet Reno "worked for" Bill Clinton when it came to matters of prosecution. Clinton couldn't tell Reno "Don't look into anything I've done." That's not how it works.

You seem to forget a guy named Nixon who told a guy named Richardson to fire a guy named Cox. Richardson told him fuck no and resigned. A cretin named Bork finally went and did it...and thus the term "Borked" came into popular usage when Bork wanted to fulfill his nasty little dream of becoming a member of the Supreme Court.

And remember when Alberto Gonzales tried to game the system and dump all those pesky states' attorneys? http://www.salon.com/2007/02/09/united_states_attorneys/


Why do you think it will go over any better if Obama tries to tell the AG what to do? He can't "tell" Holder (or Holder's replacement) to prosecute anymore than he can "tell" Holder's replacement to NOT prosecute. The AG has to go where the evidence takes him--or her--not where Obama tells him to go.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
147. Sorry, you're wrong. From your very own cite:
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 12:39 AM
Dec 2014
But now, “under heightened scrutiny" since the 2nd circuit court asked for the administration to defend its position given lack of precedent, Holder wrote, the government’s ability to defend the law can no longer be made by “advancing hypothetical rationales, independent of the legislative record, as it has done in circuits where precedent mandates application of rational basis review. Instead, the United States can defend Section 3 only by invoking Congress’ actual justifications for the law.”

That legislative record, Holder wrote, “contains discussion and debate that undermines any defense under heightened scrutiny. The record contains numerous expressions reflecting moral disapproval of gays and lesbians and their intimate and family relationships – precisely the kind of stereotype-based thinking and animus the Equal Protection Clause is designed to guard against.”


You can't make something out of "moral disapproval." The 2nd Circuit said "defend yourself" and the administration said "We got nuttin.'"

It's not the same sort of situation at all.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
158. I am surprised that a Nixon aficionado (given your avatar, and your prior posts on Nixon) does not
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:11 AM
Dec 2014

know the answer to this. After all, this was the gravamen of impeachment against Nixon.

The President cannot order the AG to come to a legal conclusion. The President, as a matter of fact, cannot order the AG to do anything, except under the auspices of an Executive Order binding on the ordinary business of the DOJ.

So....just as Nixon could not order Archibald Cox to come to legal conclusions about the probe, and therefore, fire the prosecutor, President Obama cannot order Eric Holder to come to a legal conclusion about anything.

What President Obama did do about the DOJ's response to DOMA was right and proper--he asked the AG to review the Administration's stance, provide guidance for the issuance of further Executive Orders, and the White House Counsel provided the AG its own legal summary.

Most importantly...President Obama made sure he picked an excellent AG who would have the courage and conviction to stand up for rights for all.

I am glad you have begun to take an interest in GLBT rights!

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
167. Well, shit....I'm just looking at your avatar, and like any good DUer can, they can google your
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:23 AM
Dec 2014

username and "Nixon" in the helpful search box provided by admin to take a look at what you've written about Nixon.

Poor Elvis.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
187. Heheh...
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 02:01 AM
Dec 2014

Poor Elvis indeed...the balance of his mind was disturbed as a consequence of heavy drug abuse, poor man.

Full marks for you--btw, excellent post just above...

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
174. So this isn't true:
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:35 AM
Dec 2014

"Attorney General Eric Holder said President Barack Obama has concluded that the administration cannot defend the federal law that defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. "

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
180. Manny, can you name the vehicle by which the President orders the AG to do something?
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:42 AM
Dec 2014

I ask you this, because you seem to be perseverating in the idea that the President 'orders' the AG to come to legal conclusions.

So there must be a body of documents you can point to that would reflect Presidential orders in particular cases.

Can you tell me what they are?

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
195. No, Manny...my answer is exactly as I wrote....since you insist you are correct, kindly
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 03:03 AM
Dec 2014

name the Presidential document or other vehicle you are referring to. There's gotta be an archive of these orders.

After all, I've already given you the example of your avatar. What you seem to be suggesting is that Nixon was
improperly investigated.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
185. He told them that the government had no "defense" save a few Republicans saying "Ewwww."
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:58 AM
Dec 2014

That's not at all the same as "ordering" Holder or any other AG to "prosecute."

Maybe he should "order" Holder to "prosecute" you, too--because, ya know, he's the King and all...?

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
24. Please name them. Come on now...if there are DUers doing such an atrocity...then name them!
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 06:58 PM
Dec 2014

Jury their posts....report them to admin.


Come on Manny!

JI7

(89,182 posts)
28. yes, they should be alerted
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:04 PM
Dec 2014

and if jury allowed it to remain i would like to see the details of the jury vote.

Andy823

(11,495 posts)
39. He can't
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:14 PM
Dec 2014

This is just another shit stirring post with no facts, just a bunch of BS. Some here are really good at stirring things up, but never being able to back up what they say. I guess as long as they get recs from their "loyal" followers, they will never stop.

zappaman

(20,605 posts)
60. How is that defending torture?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:27 PM
Dec 2014

You cherry picked part of the post.
How about quoting the whole thing?

Number23

(24,544 posts)
152. Not only did you only express one tiny sentiment from that post
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:04 AM
Dec 2014

But you put this really stupid bit: "We've always tortured, so the president's poo-pooing of this torture is nothing new"

in quotes as if that's even remotely close to what that poster said. I am cracking up that you either believe that's what bravenak was saying or that you're trying to get OTHER people to believe that's what bravenak was saying.

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
149. He demanded links from posters last night...
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 12:44 AM
Dec 2014

demanded them! Yet here. We get crickets.

And he loves to alert on his threads for those that do not toe his line.

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

zappaman

(20,605 posts)
69. Where are these people claiming to be Democrats who are so blatantly making excuses for war?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:37 PM
Dec 2014

Are you talking about DUers?
If so, they should be alerted on.
Can you point to one post?

 

stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
70. yep, that's exactly what all the "BHO didn't call torturers Patriots!!!" BS
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:39 PM
Dec 2014

is all about alrighty.

Sadly for them that's exactly what he did.

zappaman

(20,605 posts)
75. Maybe it's time for a new persona to go with the always hilarious "Third Way Manny"?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:51 PM
Dec 2014

Strawman Manny!
Could be a big hit!

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
81. Really Manny?
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:04 PM
Dec 2014

Link please. You know how you always demand links. We would like that same courtesy from you.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
83. And some folks are more than OK ...
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:17 PM
Dec 2014

... with accusing anyone who doesn't agree with them of "defending torture and torturers".

Just like accusing people who don't trust Snowden/Greenwald of "defending the NSA and domestic spying".

Just like accusing people who don't agree that all cops are bigoted bullies of "defending the idea of black men being gunned down".

Just like accusing people who don't fall into lockstep with one's political views of being "Third Wayers".

Just like accusing people who express ANY opinion contrary to what DU now considers the only "acceptable" opinion of being paid trolls.


Et fuckin' cetera.

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
88. "Et fuckin' cetera."
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:32 PM
Dec 2014

Thank you Nance.

Some say the Op is not talking about DU. Was it said directly? No. However it was implied and the commenters know that as you can see from some of the responses.

I am standing here accused of condoning torture. I have been tried, judged and condemned at DU by said posters. Pretty sad on what is suppose to be a Democratic board.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
92. So what you are saying is that we have people here that don't agree with each other.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:41 PM
Dec 2014

And get nasty? This is why we cannot have nice things like META.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
99. It would be a pretty dull place ...
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 08:56 PM
Dec 2014

... if everyone agreed with everyone else on everything.

But it's now a place where one MUST agree with a certain contingent - and if they don't, they are obviously defenders of cop killers who want the NSA to read all their emails while they await their paycheques for posting.

I never understood the dissolution of Meta - all it accomplished was making GD pretty much "all Meta, all the time", instead of confining the usual boxing matches to the ring.


NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
100. It's not a matter of disagreement on torture ...
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:00 PM
Dec 2014

... it's a matter of accusing people of being "okay with torture" based on nothing more than the fact that they disagree with you on other issues.



leftstreet

(36,081 posts)
109. That's what you said it was
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:26 PM
Dec 2014
And some folks are more than OK ...

... with accusing anyone who doesn't agree with them of "defending torture and torturers".


You didn't mention 'other issues' before now

Perhaps you just forgot

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
116. You're right.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:44 PM
Dec 2014

I was imprecise. I meant "anyone who doesn't agree with them" full-stop. There are many here who accuse other posters of all kinds of things when they are disagreed with on any topic or political issue.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
178. Oh, I'm getting used to the "hides".
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:39 AM
Dec 2014

And the jury results are always enlightening, in terms of how the jury system actually operates.

Second to last hide, Juror No. 1: "I can't stand NanceGreggs, so I'm voting to hide this."

Last hide, Juror No. 3: &quot She) parses reality through Obama colored glasses to the point of ridiculousness."

You will notice that neither cited any violations of the TOS, nor any disruptive behaviour - merely the fact that they "can't stand" me personally, or that they disagreed with my support of Obama.

And while I'm on the subject, I am still wondering WHY jury results are often cited in threads and left undisturbed. But the jury results that were posted citing "I can't stand NanceGreggs, so I'm voting to hide" was immediately alerted on and "hidden".

Could it be that a bit of transparency in respect of how juries vote and WHY was deemed to be a little too much information that some would rather hide than address?

In any event, thanks for the support, bettyellen! Just be careful you don't get a "hide" yourself for supporting the "wrong person", or what they had to say.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
117. Yes it is disgusting to see people defend torture.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:52 PM
Dec 2014

I assume you mean people in general and not on du because I have not seen anyone defending torture here.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
119. People are in denial. They don't want to admnit that the man they adore and voted for twice...
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 09:57 PM
Dec 2014

...thinks torture is OK.

 

LawDeeDah

(1,596 posts)
127. He thought torture was so okay, he stopped it 2 days into his Presidency with an EO.
Thu Dec 11, 2014, 10:08 PM
Dec 2014

Pretty sly of him, isn't it?

lol, the denseness of the Amazon right in our own living rooms.

Response to Odin2005 (Reply #119)

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
154. Seriously? We are in denial?
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:06 AM
Dec 2014

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How many times did you vote for him? Once? Twice? Ever?

And I would love to see the link of those that adore this President saying torture is okay. You made a statement, please provide the links that support it. Otherwise your statement is fucking bullshit!

DU became a sad place today. Obama=Bush and those that support him want people tortured. Really? Put up or shut up. I want links not GOP talking points.

Show me Odin. I want facts not fantasy.

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
159. You dumped another load on DU Manny.
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 01:13 AM
Dec 2014

It blows my mind and it stinks like the sewer.

The toilet just overflowed.

Happy now?

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
192. Do I get my spanking now?
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 02:15 AM
Dec 2014

I could use one about now, I reckon. Or maybe I deserve one of those rehydration thingies.

Autumn

(44,762 posts)
204. Manny I'm gonna talk to your wife and see if we can hook you up with a couple of
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 10:41 AM
Dec 2014

Last edited Fri Dec 12, 2014, 11:45 AM - Edit history (1)

psychologists, a Dr. Jessen and Dr. Mitchell, everybody knows them, their practice has been in the news a LOT lately. I bet a lot of posters in this thread will be tickled to chip in on it.

You are a brat.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
201. Or say they should be pardoned instead.
Fri Dec 12, 2014, 09:06 AM
Dec 2014

No trials and convictions first, no dragging out into the light just how vile and deliberate their actions are, just blanket pardon them in advance, so that we can continue to ignore injustices by those in power, and they can continue with their lives unhindered, while their victims are either dead or in a living Hell for the rest of their lives.

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