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Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:07 PM

Far from setting up prosecution, torture report tees up pardons

While there was some new information in the Senate torture report, some of the most damning details were left out like systematically cutting a guy all over with a razor including his genitals, rape of men, women, and children, showing prisoners relatives killed in custody and on and on.

Why not include these if they are already in the press record and even in past government probes like the Taguba Report?

Because if these crimes that even the far right would have a hard time forgiving were included, it would be impossible to pardon the Bushies.

Anthony Romero of the ACLU makes a case that pardoning the Bushies will at least make it clear that they committed crimes, and there is some merit to that argument, but if Obama does it, that will not be why.

If Obama pardons Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Yoo, and the others who had a hand in the torture and other war crimes, it will be to protect them from prosecution from future administrations that may be less corrupt and have a higher regard for the law and human rights than the leadership of either of our two major parties.

When we get to that point in our history though, actual justice will probably trump indefensible "get out of jail free" cards for those who ordered the torture of thousands and deaths of over a million, and used our tax dollars and soldiers lives to do it.



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Reply Far from setting up prosecution, torture report tees up pardons (Original post)
yurbud Dec 2014 OP
daleanime Dec 2014 #1
on point Dec 2014 #2
hifiguy Dec 2014 #5
yurbud Dec 2014 #7
branford Dec 2014 #14
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #3
SamKnause Dec 2014 #6
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #8
yurbud Dec 2014 #11
MindPilot Dec 2014 #17
yurbud Dec 2014 #10
yurbud Dec 2014 #9
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #12
yurbud Dec 2014 #19
stone space Dec 2014 #13
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #15
stone space Dec 2014 #16
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #18
stone space Dec 2014 #20
yurbud Dec 2014 #21
hifiguy Dec 2014 #4
stone space Dec 2014 #22
yurbud Dec 2014 #23

Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:13 PM

1. Dollars to doughnuts...

if the Democratic nominee for 2016 isn't a war hawk, there will be pardons handed out.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:15 PM

2. The I ternational treaty the USA signed, says these can't be pardoned

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Response to on point (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:17 PM

5. The US government hasn't paid any attention to international obligations

 

since the time of King Ronnie the Simple. Why should it start doing so again now?

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Response to on point (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:32 PM

7. if we should have learned anything from the Bush era forward...

No sin on behalf of the financial elite is big enough to be prosecuted, and no sin against them is small enough to be ignored.

The law doesn't exist for the powerful.

That is also why all the talk about "bipartisanship" and the procedural kabuki of the Senate and House makes me ill: if the rich want something, both chambers will trample all over that shit to get it done.

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Response to on point (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:42 PM

14. The pardon power is a presidential power guaranteed by the Constitution.

 

It cannot be constrained or restricted by treaty or legislation.

It does not matter what the Geneva Convention or any other treaty states or implies. The president can issues pardons to anyone concerning a federal crime if he so desires, except for his own removal from office.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:16 PM

3. If Obama pardons Bush, there are no clean hands.

 

Every american will then share the blame.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:29 PM

6. This American will not accept any blame.

I have no control over the CIA.

I have no control over my corrupt government.

I have no control over the Pentagon or MIC.

I am forced to pay taxes.

I get no say in where my taxes are spent.

I am anti war.

I am anti torture.

I am not responsible in anyway, shape or form.

We know the people that are to blame.

Too bad we don't have a government with the balls to do the right thing.

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Response to SamKnause (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:33 PM

8. You and I elected a guy who shrugs impotently about torture.

 

We should own that.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:36 PM

11. I voted for the most progressive of what was left in the Democratic primaries in 2008

which was down to Hillary, Obama, and Edwards by California.

I voted for Edwards by mail, and then he pulled out before primary election day.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:52 PM

17. And this is exactly why I will never again vote for the most likely to win.

 

I will vote my principals--not the party.

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Response to SamKnause (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:35 PM

10. we need national referendums and ballot initiatives.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:34 PM

9. many of us voted for Obama the first time hoping he would change course

He did, about five degrees on domestic policy and about half that on foreign.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:37 PM

12. He didn't. So now what are we going to do?

 

I see a lot of shrugging and comparatively little consistent application of principles.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:02 PM

19. what application do you recommend?

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:41 PM

13. Some of us are opposed.

 

And have been opposed for a very, very long time.

Every american will then share the blame.


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Response to stone space (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:42 PM

15. I suspect that most of us are... you know, in principle.

 

The thing I find ironic is that I remember 2008 quite well. All the reasons that people gave for opposing Hillary, all the worst-case scenarios, have come to pass under Obama.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:45 PM

16. I'm not sure how you can hold those of us who are opposed responsible.

 

We've been fighting this sort of thing for a long, long time.

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Response to stone space (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:53 PM

18. Prior to 2001, we all accepted that it was wrong, against the law and something americans don't do.

 

Then Bush did it and true to Karl Rove's promise, they created a new reality.

In 20 years or so, a sensible centrist will make us carefully weigh how holding people accountable for US WMD attacks "on evildoers" is not a sensible or bipartisan application of justice.

If not torture, then what? What should we be willing to stand up for, by demanding justice?

My parents could not have forseen this. The form of america that we've enabled to metastasize on our watch would be unrecognizable to them.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:05 PM

20. Some of us have been fighting this stuff long before 2001.

 

Might be an age thingie.

Some of us are old as dirt!

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:06 PM

21. I couldn't have foreseen terrorists being portrayed as an "existential threat" to the US

during the Cold War.

Even now, I think most members of Congress who support the War on Terror know that it is embarrassingly childish bullshit, but it's the story the elite settled on to do what they want and they think it's fooling enough of us.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:16 PM

4. They are being drafted as we speak.

 

Bet the farm on it. Obama can't wait to sign them.

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Response to yurbud (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:11 PM

22. The details of the crimes should be explicitly spelled out in any pardons.

 

some of the most damning details were left out like systematically cutting a guy all over with a razor including his genitals, rape of men, women, and children, showing prisoners relatives killed in custody and on and on.


We need to know exactly what it is they are being pardoned for.

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Response to stone space (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 10:44 PM

23. that would be great if the condition of the pardon was a public reading of a detailed confession

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