DU religion survey

[Prophet 451]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by William769 (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Last edited Fri Nov 28, 2014, 04:20 PM - Edit history (2)

Pretty simple, just check the one that applies to you.

EDIT: Yes, I know it doesn't include Muslim. It was there earlier but a couple of people were offended that I didn't include an option for Hindu. I couldn't remove any of the others because people had already picked them so I removed Muslim as that hadn't had anyone click on it and replaced it with Hindu. It's not intended as a slight, it's just that there's only 10 slots.

117 votes, 4 passes | Time left: Poll closed
	Atheist
	60 (51%)
	Agnostic
	16 (14%)
	Christian
	19 (16%)
	Jewish
	1 (1%)
	Hindu
	0 (0%)
	Sikh
	2 (2%)
	Buddhist
	3 (3%)
	Reconstructionist (attempting to rebuild a previously lost faith, i.e. Aesir)
	1 (1%)
	Neo-Pagan
	1 (1%)
	Other
	14 (12%)
	4 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Jewish-ish.

I incorporate many things into my spirituality, but maintain a strong secular system. Thank D-g for cognitive dissonance!

[Prophet 451]

2. Alas, the polling didn't allow for multiple entries :)

[Behind the Aegis]

4. LOL! Yeah, that's the obligatory "other."

I guess that would have fit better, but I am not ashamed of being labeled a Jew. "Eclectic" would have been better, but hey, them's the breaks.

Hope things are well in your world.

[Prophet 451]

16. Not bad, thanks

[Recursion]

9. As my friend Rachel said when I caught her eating bacon

"Well, I'm Jewish."

[Behind the Aegis]

13. I have said something like that too...a lied a few times.

If I don't like something, I declare not Kosher. However, if I eat bacon or something in the same group, I just tell the person it was blessed by a rabbi. I know I shouldn't take advantage of cultural ignorance, but it keeps people out of my food. LOL!

[Recursion]

17. India has opened my eyes to dietary laws

It's really changed my understanding of both kosher and halal.

[mahina]

128. How so?

And to the op, "nobody's business", nor is my age or gender or other characteristic.

[Jim Lane]

41. Or Woody Allen's answer to the "What religion" question: "Jewish, with an explanation" (n/t)

[mucifer]

51. I am a Jew and proud of it. But, it's more of a cultural thing

than a religious thing. I'm really an agnostic and a Jew. I just felt more comfortable putting down that I'm Jewish.

[MannyGoldstein]

87. You, and half of all Jews

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-09-26/jew-atheist-god/50553958/1

Based on my Hebrew-school education, I suspect that Judaism and agnosticism are highly compatible.

[mucifer]

92. Between the humor and the food, we can't stop being Jews.

[MannyGoldstein]

97. There's also the genetics

I got my genetics tested by 23 and Me a while back, they reported the percentage of my jewishness (99% Ashkenazi).

[Brigid]

131. Someone once said:

Here's every Jewish holiday rolled into one: "They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat!"

[2banon]

240. that's like saying "I'm White and proud of it".

reminds me of a housemate who just couldn't understand why i didn't have an issue with "illegals" coming in from Mexico. His concern was that the demographics of our population was going to change dramatically and that Whites will soon be a minority, maybe in the next generation.

Asked with astonishment why I didn't care, don't I have any pride in my race. I said no, that it was stupid thing to be "proud" of. It's not an accomplishment or an achievement, it's totally a random thing from birth that I had no decision in making and it's just not meaningful to me in any way... he rushed at me with a fist ready to crush my skull in. didn't happen, though totally surprised and taken aback with some measure of fear for my safety I said something, he backed off and I soon moved away from that house.

I just don't get being "proud" of one's ethnicity, race, culture or religion.

it's a fundamental requirement in fostering bigotry and hatred. .

[okasha]

286. No.

It's more like saying "I'm Native American and proud of it."

I don't think Whites have the same history of surviving attempts at extermination.

[2banon]

287. Native American? No. If he was a Palestinian on the other hand, that would compare accurately.

[Half-Century Man]

284. Second that (or thirds or fourths, lost count)

I'm a Jew who understands our predecessors explained things as best they could. Those explanations have been accidentally changed (and sometimes via intent) over time and when transitioning between languages.

So much from the oral legacies and cross cultural exchanges has become blurred through time, I find it most interesting when archeology can back up legend (or suggest a chain of cross cultural exchange).

[WillyT]

3. K & R !!!

[AndyTiedye]

5. Under Construction

[ZombieHorde]

7. Ha! Love it. nt

[ZombieHorde]

6. I'm an atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Neo-Pagan, nihilist,

but my loved ones call me a degenerate.

[WhiteAndNerdy]

12. LMAO!

I'm pretty sure that's how some of my relatives feel about me.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Your loved ones are nicer than mine.

I can't repeat what they say; I'd get banned.

[cordelia]

125. I knew I liked you for a reason.

[lindysalsagal]

288. Man after my own heart.

To make it even worse, I'm also a salsa dancer. Mom LOVES that.

[Recursion]

8. No room for Hindu? (nt)

[Prophet 451]

11. Only room for ten entries

I didn't want to drop the neo-pagans or the Recons because I know there's a few here. Didn't know there were any Hindus here. Apologies.

[Recursion]

15. It's the third largest religion in the world

But, I do get your point.

[Prophet 451]

85. Altered it

Hindu is now an option

[Recursion]

95. Thanks! Sorry if I was an ass about that (nt)

[Prophet 451]

96. No problem

[MADem]

108. No room for Muslims, either, apparently~!! nt

[Recursion]

114. Damn, how did I miss that? (nt)

[Prophet 451]

160. Yeah

The story is this: There were only ten slots. I originally included Muslim but didn't include Hindu because I ran out of slots. A couple of Hindus pointed this out. I couldn't drop reconstructionist (as I should have done in the first place) since someone had already picked it but no-one had yet picked Muslim. So I dropped Muslim and replaced it with Hindu.

[rug]

185. You should have worked for the British Foreign Office in 1947.

[Prophet 451]

187. Ha!

Maybe so.

[Electric Monk]

18. The "One And Only True One"™, but I'm not telling you which. You have to find your own path ;P

nt

[Enthusiast]

20. Hrumph! Where's the profit in that?

You anti-capitalist!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

63. Reformed Omnian? nt

[Prophet 451]

71. SPLITTERS!

[Recursion]

104. We are the People's Front of Judea! (nt)

[DeSwiss]

19. If TRUTH were told.....

...here's most people's GOD:



- K&R




God's Away On Business

[Prophet 451]

28. Sadly, true

[YoungDemCA]

227. Very true of this country's culture....

...particularly in recent decades.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. Bow down before me....

[Prophet 451]

22. I know Satan, Satan is a friend of mine

and you, sir, are no Satan.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

23. Atheist....

According to some people I know, it's the same thing.

[Prophet 451]

24. "Don't feel like Satan / but I am to them"

So I try and forget it / every way I can"

[blkmusclmachine]

25. Fairy tales vs. science/reason. You decide.

[Prophet 451]

27. No need to insult other's beliefs

Last edited Fri Nov 28, 2014, 10:31 AM - Edit history (1)

Science and faith are not incompatible, no matter what fundies and militant atheists think.

[bvf]

30. Teach yourself the difference

between an insult and a challenge.

[Prophet 451]

31. Likening to a fairy tale is an insult

It's not a challenge, it's just an insult.

[bvf]

32. Why is that?

If one's belief is anything more than a fairy tale, a more satisfying answer would be expected--at least among those who actually use their brains.

[Prophet 451]

33. Don't go thinking that a petty insult is some masterful challenge

I know you're accustomed to thinking that "your beliefs are fairy tales" is some masterful challenge from the atheist founts of wisdom but it's not, it's just a childish insult and this isn't the place for debating belief. The question was simply what belief position/system the responder, not "please use this as an excuse to insult other people's beliefs".

[bvf]

35. I have yet to see

Last edited Fri Nov 28, 2014, 07:26 AM - Edit history (1)

a rational, direct response around here to the very simple and direct question, "Why do you believe?"

No one's asking for dissertations; a few honest sentences would do.

I do appreciate the poll, btw. Gotta give you that.

[cbayer]

132. Why are you straight or gay? Why do you like some foods and not others?

Why do you not believe? Do you think belief is a choice? Could you choose to believe?

I'm not asking for a dissertation. A few honest sentences would do.

[skepticscott]

248. Why are you male or female?

And yes, adhering to religion and believing in a God is something people choose to do. Why else would you accuse both atheists and religionists of proselytizing (you've done both)? If belief weren't a choice, there would be no point in trying to convert people, any more than there would be any point in trying to "convert" gay people back to being straight, now would there?

Trying to equate belief (clearly a choice) to being gay, as if that were a "choice", is pretty despicable, especially on a progressive chat board.

[Leopolds Ghost]

282. Because if people choose to be something, then clearly it's wrong

They can only be proud of stuff they have no control over, that makes them feel special.

[rug]

191. That's not an insult.

Wait, there it is! Before the edit.

[rug]

189. There's another one!

This is fun. Find the insult!

[phil89]

49. Would you prefer

the term mythology?

[Prophet 451]

56. Better but still not quite right

Normally, the term for a religion's beliefs is "theology". That said, the line between theology and mythology is an extremely fine one and some mythologies still have believers today.

[HERVEPA]

69. Fairy tale sounds right to me.

[rug]

188. Let me try!

That was an insult.

[skepticscott]

241. Why would anyone think they're "compatible"

simply because some people can irrationally compartmentalize their brains to hold both notions at once, out of some psychological need?

Do you consider democracy and slavery to be compatible? Yes or no?

[Prophet 451]

243. No, the only people forcing others to choose between science and faith

are fundies, atheist or theist.

/ignore_you

[skepticscott]

250. In other words, my question puts an uncomfortable truth

in a place where you can't rationalize it away. So your reaction is to stick your fingers in your ears, and hurl insults. Very telling.

[Odin2005]

84. This edgy crap is why I don't call myself an Atheist, anymore.

I don't want to be associated with people who flaunt their lack of religious belief as a way of bragging of how smart and enlightened they are.

[Prophet 451]

91. There's quite a few like that on DU

Not going to name names (as that would be a call-out and violate teh TOS) but I'm sure you've seen the same people I have.

[Warren Stupidity]

199. Stay classy.

Here's a suggestion: if you post on religion in GD, try not to assume that you are in the religion forum. Bringing that dogfight out here, which you just did with that post is reprehensible.

[liberal_at_heart]

202. people are crappy towards each other here whether it is about religion or any other topic.

I realize this is a message board, and you can't expect civility on message boards on any topic. It's just sad to see people use the anonymity of a message board as an excuse to be mean and nasty to one another regardless of what the topic is.

[Warren Stupidity]

204. The religious dogfight is supposed to be constrained to the religion forum.

The op of this poll has used what appeared to be a harmless poll to bring that dogfight out here, and that is a crap thing to do.

[liberal_at_heart]

209. I disagree. There are many including myself enjoying this thread and are being respectful.

[MellowDem]

141. You don't call yourself an atheist...

Because you don't like how some atheists act? There is a logical disconnect there.

[skepticscott]

251. Particularly on an anonymous chat board

where no one knows who the fuck you are anyway.

I don't like how some liberals act, and I don't like how some Americans act, but it doesn't make me run away from calling myself either.

[cbayer]

134. The value of loving your neighbor as yourself versus atomic bombs. You decide.

[Odin2005]

151. Oh snap!

[Warren Stupidity]

208. The value of beheading apostates vs using the internet.

[JustAnotherGen]

26. UU - Deist

[alterfurz]

29. non-practicing pantheist here...

...many levels of consciousness, many gods. Each blind man holding onto a different part of the elephant. Oh sure, on good days I might still muster up a little dishwater agnosticism, but atheism remains far too problematic--as Woody put it, there's no way you can prove God doesn't exist: you just have to take it on faith.

The gods hear and answer all prayers. The answer to the common petition to suspend just this once the Law of Cause and Consequence is customarily No. (Trust in Allah, but always tie your camel. Pray to Neptune, but row away from the rocks.) Sometimes when the gods want to punish us, they give us what we ask for, and to reward us, they don't. General guideline: If you don't pray when the sun shines, don't pray when it rains. Corollary: "If the only prayer you say in your life is thank you, that would suffice." -- Meister Eckhart (c. 1260-c. 1328). Personally, I'm counting on that.

Useful deity validity test:
You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. -- Anne Lamott, Traveling Mercies (Pantheon, 1999)

[FLPanhandle]

45. Atheism is "far too problematic"?

As for the "there's no way you can prove God doesn't exist", you might want to educate yourself on the concept of Burden of Proof.

[Prophet 451]

59. Well, that's an interesting thing

When someone says "I don't believe in god", they're making a statement about the self. No-one can argue with that since the atheist would know if s/he believed and would, presumably, not describe herself as an atheist (although I described myself as an atheist for a while because it was simpler than explaining and here (UK), atheism is no big deal).

However, when you say "there is no god", you're not making a statement about the self, you're making a statement about the universe and then I would say the burden of proof falls on the person making the universal claim.

Now, that's speaking only about the existence of a god(s). When you make any assertions about a god, then you're making an active statement and the burden falls on you again.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

100. Burden of proof falls on you for active statements?

So if I say 'God is not a giant purple and green striped pineapple with a rat's head' the burden of proof is on me?
What if my friend then says it is? We're both saying things that are mutually exclusive, so which of us does the burden of proof fall upon?

However, when you say "there is no god", you're not making a statement about the self, you're making a statement about the universe and then I would say the burden of proof falls on the person making the universal claim.

To which I reply, when you say 'there is a God',you're not making a statement about the self, you're making a statement about the universe and then I would say the burden of proof falls on the person making the universal claim.

See how that works? By the logic you use in the comment above, the burden of proof is upon anyone who even brings up 'God', no matter what they say. Does exist, doesn't exist, is a giant pineapple, etc, etc, etc.

[Prophet 451]

105. ...

To which I reply, when you say 'there is a God',you're not making a statement about the self, you're making a statement about the universe and then I would say the burden of proof falls on the person making the universal claim.

But if I say "I believe in a god", then I'm back to making a statement about teh self.

I take your point though, I'll think on it some more.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

107. I think it simply goes back to the 'nature' of a God.

Or at least the definition that most people seem to accept as being part of 'God'. That he/she/it/they are 'beyond natural laws'. They are a God if they are outside natural laws - if not, they aren't really a 'God', just extremely powerful, but in a way that can be explained by science.

So a 'God' can do or be illogical, and any attempt to simply 'prove' it by logic either cannot succeed, or can only succeed in regards to extremely powerful, yet still within the boundary of nature type of creatures, ie, not Gods.

[rug]

193. Hence, there is no burden of proof.

[stone space]

113. The burden of proof falls on the one who...

...wishes to convince others of their position, regardless of what that position is.

We're both saying things that are mutually exclusive, so which of us does the burden of proof fall upon?

Merely making a claim incurs nothing.

The burden of proof is a burden taken on voluntarily.

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. I think "presumably, not describe herself as an atheist" is wrong

and your own sentence calls her 'the atheist' before that.

As far as the 'burden of proof' goes, consider what FLPanHandle was replying to:

"non-practicing pantheist here...

...many levels of consciousness, many gods. Each blind man holding onto a different part of the elephant. Oh sure, on good days I might still muster up a little dishwater agnosticism...

The gods hear and answer all prayers. ... Sometimes when the gods want to punish us, they give us what we ask for, and to reward us, they don't. "

Notice that viewpoint is far beyond agnosticism, as it explicitly says.

[hifiguy]

234. The late physicist and philosopher Victor Stenger

makes a compelling existence for the non-existence of supernatural beings in God - The Failed Hypothesis. His science and logic are airtight.

[Prophet 451]

237. Without readin it, I would disagree

Simply put, without visiting the entire universe (and even then, you could miss one another), you cannot categorically say that X does not exist. You can say it's unlikely, improbable, very improbable or whatever. But you can't absolutely-for-certain say X does not exist. Even if you could, that would not necessarily mean that the teachings of X belief system were worthless.

That said, I will look for the book and see what I think.

[Warren Stupidity]

269. "Without readin it, I would disagree" nt.

[DireStrike]

267. This is mainly a problem in the definition of the words Atheist and Agnostic

If you put those two words on a continuum, any reasonable person would find one of them to be a ridiculous position, depending on how they defined each.

Instead the most productive way to look at is as describing two different questions. The agnostic/gnostic divide is addressing the question of whether we have absolute knowledge of the topic. If someone claims to be a gnostic theist or atheist, you can pretty quickly rule out the possibility of a reasonable conversation. Most reasonable people would say "I can't prove absolutely that there is or isn't a god," making them agnostic. Then they would say:

"BUT, I believe/don't believe there is a god." This is the question of theism. It is possible to have a belief without absolute knowledge. In fact if you really think about it, all the believing we do is in the absence of total knowledge.

Therefore, I call myself an agnostic atheist. Two separate, only loosely related terms. I can't prove there's no god (and I don't think that anyone can), so I don't KNOW. But I find it a completely ridiculous idea, and so I don't BELIEVE.

[phil89]

50. You're not even getting the basics right.

atheism isn't a faith based positio, it's a rejection of a claim. It also has no burden of proof. Is lack of belief in leprechauns a faith based position? I think people should understand the basic definitions.

[Warren Stupidity]

273. in fairness many of these arguments assume the "gnostic atheist" position,

that is that the person categorically knows there are no gods, not the "agnostic atheist" position that there is no evidence for the existence of gods, and that while gods might exist, it is simply absurdly improbable that they do.

[stone space]

34. Atheist atheist here.

And kind of a militant atheist as well, I suppose.

[FLPanhandle]

46. Me too.

Of course, living in the bible belt has tempered my militant side some.

[rug]

194. That's about the mildest declaration of militant atheism I've seen.

[belzabubba333]

36. where's the born-again hedonist catagory

[bvf]

37. Only room for ten categories.

That's why the nine-eyed-goat worshippers also missed the cut.

[belzabubba333]

38. my only 2 religions.d'oh

[bvf]

39. LOL! n/t.

[deutsey]

40. UU

The Hindu philosophy known as Advaita Vedanta comes close to capturing my religious inclination, although I'm not an adherent of it. What I understand of its basic insights resonate with how I see things.

[CanonRay]

72. UU as well

[3catwoman3]

112. Another UU here.

Long have been in my outlook, but a relative recent participant in a small local congregation. It has been good to find a community where thinking outside the mainstream spiritual box is welcomed and supported.

I did not take our sons, now 24 and 22, to any religious services. I generally kept that to myself because people look at you real funny if you admit that you don't take your kids to church. Sometimes almost feels like people would like tto turn you in to Child Protective Services for neglect. We actually discussed spirtual matters quite a lot, so that part of their development was not at all ignored. I finally came up with my own term for my approach - some people home school their kids. I "home-churched" mine.

[Chemisse]

178. Pagan & UU

A nice fit.

[LiberalEsto]

285. UU & Pagan

[FLPanhandle]

42. I'm proud to see the high percentage of atheists here.

I knew this was a smart group of people.

[Prophet 451]

61. Many believers are smart too

The sneering contemptuous assumption that only atheists can be smart is not a good way to make allies.

[Odin2005]

90. That attitude is why I don't call myself an Atheist, anymore.

I'm sick of the New Atheists telling everyone how smart and enlightened they are.

[MellowDem]

142. I wonder what a "new atheist" is?

I've mostly seen it used by the religious right to define atheists that are vocal. Can you define it?

[Odin2005]

148. The militant anti-theist followers of Hitchens, Harris, and Dawkins.

Who spew bad philosophy (morality can be derived from science!), bad history ("Christianity caused the Dark Ages!!!&quot , and bad theology (all religious people believe in a magical sky-daddy!)

[MellowDem]

157. Sounds incredibly subjective..

Like just your personal opinion, got better sources?

[rug]

196. .

http://newatheists.org/

[DireStrike]

271. I'm curious what your take on morality is then

Where is morality derived from? Or are you a moral relativist?

[skepticscott]

255. Maybe the "New Atheists" are sick of being called

"New Atheists". No one that people like you try to paste that label on started off calling themselves that, now did they? But the people you're trying disparagingly to refer to don't just say THAT one position is more enlightened than another. They go into great detail explaining WHY.

Do you think creationists and climate change deniers get tired of being told how wrong and stupid they are, that they're just a bunch of dumbasses?

[cbayer]

167. There is zero correlation between intelligence and religiosity.

For someone who probably holds himself up as more rational and reasonable and based in science, this statement is pure bunk.

[Warren Stupidity]

203. Except of course that there is.

In a 2013 meta-analysis, led by Professor Miron Zuckerman, of 63 scientific studies about IQ and religiosity, a negative relation between intelligence and religiosity was found in 53, and a positive relation in the remaining ten. Controlling for other factors, they can only confidently show strong negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity among American Protestants.[1][2]

The relationship between countries' belief in a god and average Intelligence Quotient, measured by Lynn, Harvey & Nyborg.[11]
Nyborg also co-authored a study with Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, which compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries.[11] The study analysed the issue from several viewpoints. Firstly, using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 IQ points higher than non-atheists.

Secondly, the authors investigated the link between religiosity and intelligence on a country level. Among the sample of 137 countries, only 23 (17%) had more than 20% of atheists, which constituted “virtually all... higher IQ countries.” The authors reported a correlation of 0.60 between atheism rates and level of intelligence, which was determined to be “highly statistically significant”.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

[AtheistCrusader]

257. Like hell there isn't.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cutting-edge-leadership/201311/religiosity-and-intelligence-century-research
http://www.atheistnexus.org/profiles/blogs/the-strong-correlation-between

[rug]

195. Clicking that button is extraordinarily difficult.

[hrmjustin]

238. There are smart believers here! I may not be one but I assure you there are.

[RiverLover]

43. I believe in a great Universal Energy, but reject the dogma of religion

And I don't need a guide book to know the difference btn right & wrong.

[3catwoman3]

115. "And I don't need a guide book to know the difference btn right & wrong."

Indeed not. Thank you. There are things that are right because they just are , and things that are wrong because they just are .

I like the term Great Universal Energy.

[Thirties Child]

169. The Creative Energy of the Universe

The Creative Energy of the Universe is what Edgar Cayce called it, your great Universal Energy works just as well. Ever since I left atheism behind in 1968 I've thought of it this way.

[rogerashton]

44. None of the above.

I would be an atheist, but my faith is not strong enough.

[bigwillq]

47. Atheist (nt)

[HereSince1628]

48. Weird. A faith that worships money isn't even listed

I don't want to go all CT but ignoring the greatest faith system in the northern hemisphere is strange!

[Prophet 451]

62. Well, there's only ten slots

Granted, the sacred market uber alles is probably the most widespread belief system but people tend not to actually kneel and worship it.

[bluedigger]

139. They should add the worship of Mammon.

Although, since it is also sometimes considered a devil or Beelzebub in Christian theory, maybe it's just a branch of Satanism. Tough call, but in any case, I would hope it's an insignificant part of DU's membership. Still, you never know...

[Prophet 451]

144. We are all capitalists now...

I actually am a Satanist (Luciferian) but I think living in the western world pretty much forces you to be capitalist to some degree.

[Odin2005]

52. Buddhist.

[Recursion]

70. I do strongly admire the noble eightfold path

As someone who has been both Christian and Hindu I think the Eightfold Path is entirely compatible with both.

[Odin2005]

73. I'm technically an Atheist, too, but...

I prefer the Buddhist label because it seems nowadays "Atheist" has come to mean "New Atheist jerk".

Siddhartha Gautama was a Humanist in the classic sense, he, like most Indians of his time, believed in the old "Aryan" gods, he just thought them to be irrelevant.

[Recursion]

74. It's funny, I was in a play last year about Swami Vivekenanda

And as we studied him, gurus kept saying, "well, many would say he wasn't exactly a religious thinker, more of a humanist". The Buddhists pretty quickly said "Sounds like Siddhartha". After another day or so I said "also sounds like Jesus of Nazareth."

[Odin2005]

83. A lot of the spiritual movements that emerged in the Axial Age were "Humanist" or "Atheistic".

The Axial Age being the period from about 800 BC to 200 BC. It was a period of rapid social change and economic development, a lot like the modern world. It was only after the Axial Age ended and the great empires of the later Ancient World established themselves (Rome, Han China, and Gupta India) that people, in reaction to the increasingly stultified and repressed atmosphere, retreated to otherworldly religiousness. The Greek philosophical tradition decayed into Neo-Platonist esotericism, which was then absorbed by Christianity. The various philosophical movements of Ancient India decayed as the Brahmins took back their power and promoted the Salvationist god cults still common in India today. The Humanism of Confucius was turned into a tool of state ideology. The sublime mysticism of Taoism degenerated into superstition and even quackery.

[Recursion]

93. Huh. Jeremiah was in that period too.

I really admire him.

[Odin2005]

98. All of the Old Testament Prophets were from that period, too.

Interestingly, prophets were not unique to the Hebrews, they were a common phenomenon in all of the ancient Levant, including Phoenicia and Syria.

[Recursion]

99. Ah, yes, I do know that. But Jeremiah was... well, I'm sure you know

He was his own kind of amazing.

[Brigid]

117. You should check out Amos.

He would be very popular as a DUer.

[Recursion]

118. Amos and Malachi are my two favorite prophets

Amazing stuff.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

[Brigid]

138. My pastor preached on this the Sunday after the election:

The Day of the Lord

18 Woe to you who long
    for the day of the Lord!
Why do you long for the day of the Lord?
    That day will be darkness, not light.
19 It will be as though a man fled from a lion
    only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
    and rested his hand on the wall
    only to have a snake bite him.
20 Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light—
    pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

21 “I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
    your assemblies are a stench to me.
22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
    I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
    I will have no regard for them.
23 Away with the noise of your songs!
    I will not listen to the music of your harps.
24 But let justice roll on like a river,
    righteousness like a never-failing stream!

New International Version (NIV)

I think he was upset.


  

[Recursion]

101. Plato and Aristotle, also

That just struck me..

[Odin2005]

102. And Pythagoras.

[Recursion]

103. That was an amazing generation; it also possibly produced Lao Tzu (nt)

[MellowDem]

143. People have demonized the word atheist...

For millennia, giving into their bullying doesn't help, it was obviously effective for you.

[Odin2005]

146. The New Atheist crowd has successfully made themselves into a joke

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/in-this-moment-i-am-euphoric.

They jumped the shark when Sam Harris published his book The Moral Landscape, which is so full of bad philosophy it's sad.

[MellowDem]

152. What is new atheism?

How is it defined? Who defines it? And what does any of hat have to do with the logical disconnect of not identifying as an atheist because some people you don't like are atheists? You'd have a hard time identidying as anything with that logic.

[Odin2005]

155. By "New Atheism" I mean the simplistic anti-theism popularized by...

...people like Sam Harris, Chris Hitchens, and Richard Dawkins.

[MellowDem]

159. So three people?

No tenets? What about other anti-theist people? What's good anti-theism? I've seen the term new atheist used by lots of religious right authors to refer to any vocal atheist. Are they wrong?

[skepticscott]

258. What's "simplistic" is the attempt

by people like you to keep pushing the false and easily discredited notions that the people you mention only attack some caricatured straw man of religion that no one actually adheres to or practices, or that "theology" is some deep font of complex knowledge and understanding that is beyond their comprehension. No one who has read and actually understood what they've written (and their direct responses to this silly meme) thinks that.

[goldent]

171. Here is the top entry if you google it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

From the first paragraph...

New Atheism is a social and political movement in favour of atheism and secularism promoted by a collection of modern atheist writers who have advocated the view that "religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized, and exposed by rational argument wherever its influence arises."[1]

I think there plenty of other examples where people have certain beliefs/opinions, but don't want to be associated with groups that have variations (for example, more extreme) of those beliefs/opinions. Common with religion, so no big surprise it happens with atheism.

[MellowDem]

175. If that's new atheism....

Then it doesn't sound extreme at all. Also, atheism isn't a belief system, unlike religion.

I think people feel much more comfortable readily identifying with bigoted belief systems than with atheism because of religious privilege, and people are much quicker to label atheism as "extreme" or "militant" because of that as well.

[Prophet 451]

183. Or maybe because most of the loud atheists are dicks...

...who affect a kind of sneering, contemptuous self-assured superiority to people of faith, a kind of "you're just too dumb to know we're right" that grates on people.

No, it's not fair to judge a group by it's worst members. But it's a very human tendency. Logically, atheism is no more predisposed to attract assholes than any faith. But the assholes are always loud and, just as many think of Christianity in the terms of Pat Robertson, many others think of atheism in the terms of the assholes.

[skepticscott]

259. As noted above, the people you refer to

don't simply assert, as believers do. They take whole books to demonstrate why one position has more intellectual support than another.

It has been confidently asserted on DU (and not by me) that religious beliefs are irrational and illogical, and not intelligent. How would you react to that?

[MellowDem]

261. I guess...

But atheism doesn't have an asshole belief system behind it, all the Abrahamic religions have explicitly bigoted texts and foundations. It's a little different tonisentify with such a religion and coast on the fact that it's mainstream, saying you don't agree with all the worst parts of what you identify with, and identifying as an atheist.

Also, the religious right still intentionally demonizes atheists and some of the wording is clearly a way of making atheists seem inherently extreme, when atheism says nothing about being an asshole or not.

[Prophet 451]

246. Link's dead, btw

Brings up a 404 error

[liberal_at_heart]

179. You switched from atheist to Buddhist? Can I ask when and why?

I grew up Christian but never went to church. Then after I had kids I went from one Christian denomination to another but never really felt like it fit. I started looking into Buddhism and it just fit. I knew I had found my religion.

[dawg]

222. The teachings of the Buddha have made me a better, happier person.

I'm a Christian, but that doesn't stop me from learning from other belief systems and traditions.

[Prophet 451]

231. That's fair enough

I feel somewhat the same about Taoism (my father's belief system).

[liberal_at_heart]

239. I have often thought that the teachings of Buddha and Jesus are very similar.

[Warren Stupidity]

274. really? How so?

[Recursion]

53. Other. Hindu. It's the third largest religion in the world. Just saying.

There's a billion of us at this point I think.

[Prophet 451]

64. Ran out of slots

As I said to your co-religionist upthread, there were only ten slots and I didn't know there were any Hindus here. Wasn't intended as a slight and sorry if it came off as one.

[Recursion]

66. That was me, not a co-religionist :)

Thanks, BTW!

[Hari Seldon]

54. Jewish is a culture.

One is Jewish because one is born of a Jewish mother, or if they convert.

One can be an atheist Jew, i.e. if someone born Jewish decides that there is no God, that person does not stop being Jewish.

So whereas I consider myself Atheist, I also consider myself Jewish.

[Prophet 451]

65. Sure, I understand that

I'm partly Roma (gypsy) and a Luciferian Satanist. So yeah, I can easily understand you being both.

[H2O Man]

55. Other

Earthling

[wyldwolf]

57. Skeptical agnostic or atheist?

I always tell people I'm an atheist with one foot propping to the door open to believersville - so if the big guy DOES come back I can say "Hey! I was with you the whole time!"

[Cosmic Kitten]

75. Seems very intellectually dishonest?

[wyldwolf]

89. Nah, it doesn't

[Cosmic Kitten]

109. YES, it is intellectually dishonest:

Intellectual honesty is an applied method of problem solving,
characterized by an unbiased, honest attitude,
which can be demonstrated in a number of different ways,
including but not limited to:

One's personal beliefs do not interfere with the pursuit of truth;

Relevant facts and information are not purposefully omitted
even when such things may contradict one's hypothesis;

Facts are presented in an unbiased manner, and not twisted
to give misleading impressions or to support one view over another;

Reversing one's beliefs based on expediency
is inherently intellectually dishonest.
Character matters.

[wyldwolf]

110. NO, it is not.

But your definition certainly applies to the majority of your posts on DU.

And by the way, I'm here all day. No shopping for me me.

[goldent]

174. I think most atheists would reverse their beliefs if God came down from heaven

Sure, there would be a small number who would be skeptical of the event, finding some inconsistency of his coming with a particular Bible quote

But I wouldn't call this being intellectually dishonest, just common sense.

[Prophet 451]

182. Most of the first group would be fundies

Ironically, they've so rules-lawyered the Bible that virtually any appearance of Christ would be automatically assumed to be a Satanic deception by them.

[goldent]

276. I have this image in my mind

of people of the various religions (including atheism), arguing about whose god it is, or whether it is a god at all. God looks around, shakes his/her head, and says "Never mind, I'm outta here."

[Prophet 451]

279. Sounds about right :)

[liberal_at_heart]

233. I'm not an atheist. I am a Buddhist. I guess you could say I'm an agnostic Buddhist.

I don't know if there is a God. I don't spend much time contemplating it. I would probably be one of those skeptical of a sighting of God though. He would have to appear before my very eyes(second hand accounts would not do), and even then I might think I was having a stroke or had food poisoning or something.

[goldent]

278. Well there is Biblical precedence for this position...

Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

[Cosmic Kitten]

262. The position challenged was to state they were for something when they were not.

If you change your position after the fact
based on expediency, that is intellectual dishonesty.

Most atheist would not be acting dishonestly so long
as they didn't lie about their previously held conviction.

But it's all academic, there will not be any such revelation.
These religious debates are what happen when
people confuse symbols for reality...
when people take mythology to be a literal truth.

[Logical]

77. LOL, because of the way most of us were raised I understand that. nt

[ProfessorGAC]

58. I Picked Other

Maybe i'm a Jedi, i don't know. I don't claim to know either way about any of this. That being said, i don't care. I have no interest in pursuing it. That's not atheistic. It's not agnostic.

I'm not sure what one would call it. I just don't care either way. Right or wrong, i just don't care.

[Bluenorthwest]

60. Why does this list exclude Hindu people while including 'Reconstructionists' which last time I

checked were offshoots of the faith they wanted to reconstruct, there are Christian and Jewish Reconstructionists, but how is it a stand alone faith? I'd say you are giving some faith groups nuanced choices while leaving billions of people out of the equation entirely. But that's just me.

[Recursion]

67. +1

In fairness the OP has explained that upthread, but I still object...

[Prophet 451]

68. Different kind of recon

Reconstructionists describes those who seek to rebuild a once lost faith, including no intentional (but some unintentional) modern influences. For example, those who adopt teh Norse Aesir and try to live by the tenets of old-time Asatru are recons.

In retrospect, I should have included Hindu but there were only ten slots.

[Bluenorthwest]

80. So Dominionists and other fundies would call themselves recons.

It is not a stand alone faith. 'Recon' is an adjective that needs a faith name next to it to have any meaning whatsoever. A 'Christian Reconstructionist' has no real commonalities with a person wanting to reconstruct ancient Norse religions. The 'recon' part does not join them into a group, the theology divides them into groups.
So many Hindu people on Earth and personally I have much influence from Hindu practice.

[Prophet 451]

86. Edited it to clarify that

Also added Hindu as an option

[Cosmic Kitten]

76. What's with the à la carte "religious" beliefs?

Could someone explain how it's acceptable
to have à la carte religious beliefs AND STILL
claim to be a follower of a specific religion?

Specifically, how can one claim to be say "christian"
and yet violate or ignore very clear and specific
"laws" of the church. Or be a "Buddhist" that ignores
the "suffering" their lifestyle causes?

This is an earnest inquiry.
I just don't understand the rationalization
of an "eclectic" approach while maintaining that
one follows a "religion"?

[Prophet 451]

82. OK, I'll have a tilt at it

Firstly, it varies by religion. I don't know very much about Buddhism so I can't speak for that but the Bible is so long and includes so many contradictory passages that every Christian has to pick and choose just to get through it. Additionally, Jesus supposedly abolished the old Levitical laws (although fundies love to quote Leviticus against gay people). No Christian follows everything in the Bible. That's simply not possible in the modern world and would probably get you locked up for trying.

Secondly, some religions are highly experiential and the faith is constructed through personal gnosis with the deity. That includes my own faith (Luciferian Satanist), some forms of Wicca and various others.

Thirdly, all religions have always had schisms between followers based on their interpretation of their texts. If Christianity had never had such schisms, every Christian would be Catholic. For Judaism, there's the schism between Orthodox and Reform. For Islam, there's the divisions between Shia, Sufi and Sunni. Wicca, there's Alexandrian and Gardenerian. For Satanism, there's LaVeyan, Setian, Luciferian and the punk kids that give the rest of us a bad name.

Finally, recons (those trying to rebuild lost faiths) simply don't have any other choice. While one can try and rebuilt, say, Druidism, we simply don't know much about them and virtually everything we think we know comes from their enemies (and is therefore highly suspect). Recons try to exclude modern interpretation as much as they can but the patchy information about their faiths means they can't help but disagree on some points.

[Cosmic Kitten]

116. I concure regarding the experiential nature of spiritual gnosis.

Once spiritual gnosis is attained it is no longer "faith".
It's knowledge.

As to christianity, why does any individual need to "pick and choose"
isn't that the job and purpose of the church?
At it's core, being a christian means to live like Christ, to be christ like.
Simply living according to the 10 commandments would suffice as the "rules".

Regarding "schisms" wouldn't it suffice to just pick one path
and follow it unquestioningly? Again, the issues is the a la carte
picking and choosing. If practicing faith is so arbitrary does it have
any meaning or authority to provide gnosis?
Seems more like mental jewelry than a spiritual path...
why bother with the church if we can pick and choose?

And as to recons?
That seems like a curious endeavor.
Aside from the anthropological understanding, of what need
is there to revisit beliefs which no longer serve contemporary life?
It seems more like a boutique religious belief based on how it makes
us feel about ourselves rather than the instruction towards experiential gnosis.
There are plenty of practices alive today which lead to gnosis without
having to reconstruct a belief system that was culturally and historically specific.

[CJCRANE]

120. But which version of Christ and whose interpretation?

Which version of the 10 commandments and whose interpretation?

That's the point of religion: there is no one true answer. Jesus isn't here to tell us what he meant.

(Neither is Moses, Buddha, Mohammed etc).

That's why each person and group has to interpret it for themselves.

Just a cursory glance at Wikipedia tells us there is no agreed simple interpretation of the 10 Commandments. There are millenia of nuances and competing interpretations and translations. That applies to all religions. That's why ultimately it's up to each individual to decide.

[Cosmic Kitten]

123. That suggests, the "church" has no authority, it's all chimera

As such it renders any defense of an organized religion
not simply folly, but delusion?

If there is no authority,
isn't it little more than wishful thinking?

[CJCRANE]

133. Which church?

Protestant/Catholic/Greek Orthodox/Gnostic/Sunni/Shia/Sufi/Mahayana etc?

[Cosmic Kitten]

170. All "churches"

For our purpose, "church" stands in for the "institution"
It's just shorthand for institutional religion.

So if we take your position that:
That's why each person and group has to interpret it for themselves. ...
there is no absolute "authority" on these matters.

As such, the truth is chimera.
Why bother with any church if you can simply
create an eclectic assembly à la carte ?

[CJCRANE]

172. For the reassurance of a shared community, tradition and culture.

Not everyone wants to find their own way.

They may be happy to go along with the faith tradition they were brought up in, or find a new faith tradition that they broadly agree with and find comfort in.

[Cosmic Kitten]

264. So churches are just social clubs?

That's a great idea!

But unfortunately people go to war and oppress others
based on what social club to which they belong.
They make laws and deprive others of their natural born
rights based on those beliefs.

[Prophet 451]

149. Sure but...

Once spiritual gnosis is attained it is no longer "faith".
It's knowledge.

To an extent but it's subjective knowledge since it is attained as an individual and can't be shared with others (discounting faiths with covens). I can feel teh presence of Father Lucifer but I experience that as an individual and it is filtered through my own mind and senses with their own strengths and failings.

At it's core, being a christian means to live like Christ, to be christ like.
Simply living according to the 10 commandments would suffice as the "rules".

I would think so but Paul laid out many additional rules (such as teh prohibition on homosexuality) which many Christians take as being on the same level as Jesus's teachings.

Aside from the anthropological understanding, of what need
is there to revisit beliefs which no longer serve contemporary life?

Many of them didn't die out because they were no longer needed but were actively suppressed. For example, the pagan pantheon of Rome was directly suppressed by the Christians once they had political power and the Catholic church suppressed many divergent beliefs (known as "heresies&quot . Also, the fact that something was no longer needed at a particular point in time doesn't necessarily mean it is no longer needed for all time. There may have been a period when that faith/path was no longer useful but, as times change, it becomes useful again.

[Cosmic Kitten]

173. Thats fine grist for the mill, but....

it doesn't address my primary question
how it's acceptable to have à la carte
religious beliefs AND STILL claim to be
a follower of a specific religion?

How can someone claim to be catholic
but reject such fundamental issues of birth control?
That type of personal picking-n-choosing over
the Vatican would seem to disqualify one as a follower?

Or a Buddhist disregarding fundamental issues of suffering
while they spread insecticides on their lawn or buy clothes
made with virtually slave labor?

It's about the inherent contradictions between personal wants
over the basic tenets of their chosen spiritual path.
If we can legitimately pick-n-choose what to follow or believe
there is no authority in any "religion" regarding it's ability to foster
the experiences necessary to achieve gnosis?

[Shrek]

78. Former atheist, now a Christian

I was a non-believer through my teens and early 20s.

[Prophet 451]

127. That's interesting

There's any number of people who go from Christian to atheist, of course, but it's rare to meet someone who's gone the other direction. If you don't mind me asking, what was it that converted you (and feel free to tell me to mind my own business if it's too personal).

[Shrek]

161. I don't mind

Part of it was personal reflection and study, and part of it was being in a relationship with a believer who actually walked the walk. We've been together 30 years and she's still the example to which I aspire.

This is an informative thread; thanks for posting it.

[Prophet 451]

163. Thank you for responding

It's interesting to hear from, as I said, someone quite unusual.

[meow2u3]

79. Christian

Catholic to be exact.

[Rhythm]

81. Clicked 'atheist', but technically more 'militant agnostic'. *L*

Definitely a 'recovering Baptist'... it's amazing how long it takes to get the crazy fundamentalism out of one's system. *L*

[Prophet 451]

88. How can one be a militant agnostic?

"I don't know and you don't either"?

Understood about the difficulty in getting out from fundie mentality.

[Rhythm]

135. Yeah... "I don't know... AND NEITHER DO YOU!"

[freshwest]

94. Cultural Christian. Otherwise...

Last edited Fri Nov 28, 2014, 12:31 PM - Edit history (1)

I belong to no one. I will not dance to anyone else's tune. I say this without malice.

[hrmjustin]

106. Christian.n/t.

[Android3.14]

111. Then there are the atheists who pretend they are agnostic

As a hopeful agnostic, I wonder why so many atheists do that.

[Prophet 451]

129. I hadn't noticed many doing that

Have you noticed a lot?

[Android3.14]

153. Oh yes

I've seen people claiming their atheist beliefs are really just a stronger form of agnosticism, or even claim to be an agnostic atheist/atheist agnostic. Haven't seen the debate here as such, but I stopped paying attention to the religionist fights (both atheist and godists). At smirkingchimp years ago, we debated the topic several times, and as an agnostic, it annoyed me when atheists would try to claim agnosticism was the same as atheism in order to make it seem as if there were more atheists in the room.

[Prophet 451]

156. I can kinda see someone coming in both camps

I'm thinking someone who says "I don't know but I doubt there's a god" would count as an agnostic/atheist.

[OriginalGeek]

229. I am an agnostic atheist

I do not know if there are any gods and can't prove or disprove there is a god or gods. AND I do not believe there are any gods.
I've never claimed atheism and agnosticism were the same thing. They are clearly not.

Everyone ever born is agnostic. If anyone ever had any proof then the whole argument would be moot. I know there are some people who believe so strongly that there is a god that they think they know but nobody knows if there are any gods. I also know a few people that believe so strongly there are not any gods that they think they know there aren't but those are fewer.

If my knowledge changes I will reassess my belief.

[samsingh]

213. and then there are religious people who commit evil in the name

of their religion.

[spanone]

119. recovering catholic

[dawg]

121. Christian.

I think bad people use religion as an excuse to be hateful to others, and good people use religion as a motivation to do good. On the balance, I think most of the world's major religions have good things to teach us if we are open-minded and seekers of wisdom.

[Cosmic Kitten]

124. Yet those "good things" are self-evident.

No need for a "religion" at all.

An position could be created that
the United States' "Freedom Documents"
are a sound as any historical scripture to be used
as a basis for a spiritual path.
Perhaps a better foundation due to it's universal, inclusive protections.

[YoungDemCA]

225. Self-evident?

To whom?

[liberal_at_heart]

235. My husband is agnostic. He gets asked all the time by evangelical Christians

where do you get your ethics. He says he gets them from within himself. Most people know that killing is bad for example. Why just yesterday my husband was talking to one of his friends and he said he didn't have any food. My husband immediately packed a bag full of food and took it over to him on Thanksgiving and our dating anniversary by the way taking time away from his personal holiday to help a friend. Most ethics are self evident.

[Prophet 451]

130. I would agree with that

[Brigid]

126. Christian.

Methodist, Burleigh Catholic leanings too. The two are really not that incompatible.

[etherealtruth]

136. Islam is the second largest religion in the world ....?

I don't see it as a choice ... sorry if this was pointed out upthread

[Prophet 451]

150. Oy

It was there earlier but a couple of people were offended that I didn't include an option for Hindu. I couldn't remove any of teh others because people had already picked them so I removed Muslim as that hadn't had anyone click on it and replaced it with Hindu. It's not intended as a slight, it's just that there's only 10 slots.

[CJCRANE]

137. Chrisbuddish.

I just made that up.

I'm interested in religion and religions but could never choose just one because they're all interesting.

[liberal_at_heart]

180. That sounds like my son. He finds the stories from all religions interesting, but I do

believe Greek mythology is probably his favorite, not that Greek mythology is a religion anymore but he still finds it fascinating none the less. I wonder why out of all the religions Greek mythology is the one that went from religion to mythology?

[Prophet 451]

184. Most of it's believers died out

There are a few recons trying to rebuild it, same as a few are trying to rebuild Roman paganism, Asatru, Kemeticism, etc. From observation, "mythology" is what we call any religion without enough followers to have political power.

[CJCRANE]

186. That's a nice coincidence, I was brought up on Greek mythology.

My parents were non-religious when I was younger but I had two big picture books that I used to pore over, one was of Jason and the Argonauts and the other was a collection of Greek Myths.

I'm not an expert, but from what I've read it seems that with the advent of the famous philosophers and their schools of logic and reason, the Greeks started to question the point of worshiping gods who weren't much different to humans with all their flaws and vices.

[sarisataka]

140. Follow one

But respect all.

It is not my place to tell anyone they are right or wrong as my beliefs are based on faith. Absolute proof of the existence (or lack thereof) of an omnipotent is essentially impossible.

[riqster]

145. Raised Presbyterian. I keep the label in honor of those who died for the faith.

But to tell the truth, I pretty much live my life trying to he a better person on a daily basis, without a lot of active church attendance to distract me.

[Prophet 451]

158. That's fair enough

Just trying to be a good person is a perfectly acceptable belief system and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[MellowDem]

147. Atheist and agnostic are not mutually exclusive....

It's frustrating to see polls that constantly reinforce this wrong idea by treating them as mutually exclusive.

It reinforces the confusion around the two words. Part of it is that atheism has been demonized for so long, agnostic has become the designated "safe" term to use to placate believers.

[Prophet 451]

162. No, they aren't

But a position of "I don't know" is different from a belief of "I don't believe". There can be some crossover ("I don't know but I doubt it&quot but they are different positions.

[MellowDem]

177. It seems you agree with me?

Most atheists I know are agnostic, same with most theists I know.

By the definition of the words, a person can only be either agnostic or gnostic and either atheist or theist.

[Prophet 451]

181. Sort-of

I've known quite a few atheists who don't say "I don't believe in god" (a statement about the self) but "there is no god" (a statement about the universe).

[MellowDem]

254. Gnostic atheists then...

Is what they are. And it can depend on he God. Many people would be gnostic atheists with regards to Zeus, for example

[Prophet 451]

256. Hmm, not sure that's true

I would have thought that all you could say for certain is that you on't know of Zeus. I worship Satan, for example but there may or may not be other gods. I've never met them so I wouldn't know.

[MellowDem]

268. It's for the gods that have specific claims...

That can be proven one way or the other. Many gods are defined as deistic anymore to avoid this trap. Religions have evolved to say God is unknowable, invisible etc. to just be able to say that no one can know.

Anything defined that way, people will be agnostic if honest. It's still a supernatural claim and doesn't warrant any more respect than any other supernatural claim.

[hifiguy]

154. Scientific atheist/secular humanist now.

Freethinker and skeptic since about age 10. Thank you Carl Sagan.

I have no need to spend any part of my life attempting to placate an insane, perpetually pissed-off godhead.

Though Buddhism as a practice intrigues me greatly.

[Prophet 451]

165. I find voodoo fascinating

There's something that appeals to me on a primal, aesthetic level but it's really difficult to find decent info on the faith.

[Comrade Grumpy]

164. I'm a non-believer, but I find too many atheists too obnoxious to identify as one.

So I chose none of the above.

[Prophet 451]

166. Fair enough

I've encountered some obnoxious atheists here too.

[Bryce Butler]

176. Former christian, now an atheist

...

[yortsed snacilbuper]

190. Religions of the world!

Taoism: Shit happens.
Hinduism: Shit happens again and again.
Buddhism: This shit doesn't have to keep happening.
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Mormonism: You couldn't make up shit like this.
Judaism: Why does shit always happen to us?
Televangelism: Send money or shit will happen to you.
Unitarianism: Come, let us reason together about this shit.
Christianity: Jesus died to save you from your shit.
Protestantism: Shit won't happen if you work hard.
Quaker: Let us not fight over this shit.
Hedonism: Fuck this shit.
Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it.
Capitalism: We can sell this shit.
Rastafarianism: This is good shit.
Agnosticism: I don't know about this shit.
Atheism: I don't believe this shit.

[Prophet 451]

201. Seen that before

These things never include us Satanists

[Hatchling]

252. Wiccan

Let's turn this shit into fertilizer!

[Blue_In_AK]

192. Hard to believe you included Sikh but not Muslim.

From what I've read, Islam is the fastest growing religion worldwide.

That being said, I was raised Christian, but don't consider myself much of anything now. I believe in the things that Jesus and the other great prophets allegedly taught about love and peace, but I hate what many Christian denominations have become. I don't believe in a supreme "being," and if Jesus existed, I think he was simply a wise man, not divine.

[Prophet 451]

198. The story with that is...

It was there earlier but a couple of people were offended that I didn't include an option for Hindu. I couldn't remove any of the others because people had already picked them so I removed Muslim as that hadn't had anyone click on it and replaced it with Hindu. It's not intended as a slight, it's just that there's only 10 slots.

You're not teh first person I've met who was essentially a Jesusian, following the man's teachings as mmuch as is possible but without believing him to be anything more than a wise man (who should be honoured for that alone).

[Blue_In_AK]

260. Surprising to me that we have no Muslims here

but we do have Hindus. i've noticed that sometimes DU isn't entirely friendly to Muslims, so maybe those who may have wandered in here wander right back out.

[LostOne4Ever]

197. If you ever do another poll like this

[font size=3 color=teal face=papyrus] could you please not split up agnostic and atheist (for us implicit atheists/ agnostic atheists) or at least use different terminology?

How about just calling us all non-theists? Or Maybe people who do not have any beliefs about gods either way vs those who believe there are no gods?

As you can no doubt see, there is a lot of controversy on what the words agnostic and atheist actually mean.[/font]



[font size=3 color=teal face=papyrus]Plus you would have room for both Hinduism and Islam.[/font]

[Prophet 451]

200. Atheist and agnostic are distinct

Atheism, "I don't believe in god" or "there is no god". Agnosticism, "I don't know". There's some crossover, "I don't know but I doubt it" but they aren't teh same thing.

That said, it would have saved me a slot to just collapse them as non-theist.

[LostOne4Ever]

207. They are distinct and do overlap

[font size=3 color=Teal face=papyrus]But DU does not allow us to choose multiple options forcing us to choose when we r in fact both [/font]

[cbayer]

219. Aren't you the person who recently did a long screed on how you should be

permitted to call yourself whatever your wanted. Why is it that you don't extend that right to others but insist that they are what you say they are?

You may be both, but others are not, no matter how badly you want it to be true.

Uhoh, you are now in a part of the site where those that you usually like to call out without risk can actually respond to you.

[cbayer]

218. I agree and it doesn't matter how often some say they are not distinct, they still are.

[redstatebluegirl]

205. I love it that Unitarians are always "other" even on a site like this one full of progressives.

[Prophet 451]

210. Well, as I understand it...

...you can't be "just" a Unitarian. You have to be something else as well, like pagan and UU or whatever. If I'm wrong, please do correct me.

[rogerashton]

266. There are a few of us

"mere unitarians" left, even in UU.

[olddots]

206. I worship Henny Youngman

[samsingh]

211. you missed 'muslim'

[Prophet 451]

212. The story with that is...

It was there earlier but a couple of people were offended that I didn't include an option for Hindu. I couldn't remove any of the others because people had already picked them so I removed Muslim as that hadn't had anyone click on it and replaced it with Hindu. It's not intended as a slight, it's just that there's only 10 slots.

[samsingh]

214. missing 'spiritualist'

[samsingh]

215. missing 'scientologist'

[Prophet 451]

216. Knock it off

There are only 10 slots and I didn't include my own faith.

[samsingh]

230. ok

[samsingh]

232. i could have said festivus

[MillennialDem]

217. Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive

Or agnosticism and religion for that matter.

Just to take Christianity/Islam/Judaism as an example because they all roughly offer the same thing as far as belief goes... ie believe in God or don't believe in God.

You can be a Gnostic Christian - which means you KNOW God exists.

Or you can be an Agnostic Christian - which means you BELIEVE (or want to believe) God exists, but you don't KNOW that God exists.

You can be a Gnostic Atheist - which means you KNOW God does not exist.

You can be an Agnostic Atheist - which means you BELIEVE God does not exist, but you don't KNOW that God does not exist.

Of course, there are varying shades of gray within agnosticism.

A simpler example of this would be I would almost certainly be agnostic that I left my car keys in my purse - I believe I did but I can't be certain unless I have an explicit memory of doing so. At the same time I can be gnostic that I left my cell phone on my computer desk as we speak :p

[Prophet 451]

226. No, but they are distinct

Atheism, "I don't believe in god" or "there is no god". Agnosticism, "I don't know". There's some crossover, "I don't know but I doubt it" but they aren't teh same thing.

That said, it would have saved me a slot to just collapse them as non-theist.

[trueblue2007]

220. I am a Christian.

[yuiyoshida]

221. Shinto~Buddhist. (Jodo Shinshu)

My family are Japanese Hawiian American. I guess maybe I have a bit of Hawaiian in my family, but there they were Shinto~Buddhist. (Jodo Shinshu). I really wish my family had not moved from Hawaii. I would have loved growing up there.. but I was born in California, so I am not complaining.. I was a surfer girl at 15..though I thought having to buy a wet suit was extremely expensive..but needed, as the Pacific gets pretty cold! I loved being down in Huntington Beach, where the water was a bit better, and they had some rad waves...

wow, what a trip, ne??

[LongTomH]

223. "Intellectually, I'm a Deist. Emotionally, I'm a Christian!" Thom Hartmann

[Prophet 451]

228. That's interesting

I think, growing up in a Christian culture (even here in the UK, the culture is predominantly Christian), we all internalise Christianity to some extent.

[YoungDemCA]

224. Christian. n/t

[logosoco]

236. I was born an atheist, then I was raised with being taught the Catholic religion.

I began to question what they were teaching almost from the get go. I think it helped that I was being taught about Santa at the same time! Once I figured that out (with the help of my big sister!), the rest came naturally.

For years I think I was agnostic, but now that doesn't fit either.

I do believe in energy and it is obvious we all came from the same place. The bible is an interesting story, but I can't believe it is "the truth".

I don't mind other people having religion, as long as they don't force it on others or take the attitude that they are "right". No one can be. Speculating is fun and fine, but saying "this is the way it is" doesn't fly.
I guess if I had to label myself it would be something along the lines of a secular humanist. It's not an organized thing, but I like to think that the "churches" are the science museums and all of the parks, local and national.

[okasha]

242. Other.

Native American practice, Process theology.

[Prophet 451]

244. "Process"? n/t

[rogerashton]

265. Process theology

comes from the ideas of Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartshorne (and others?) and differs from conventional theology in rejecting the idea of God outside of Time. God evolves with the universe, and may change and be changed. Nevertheless God is ultimate or all-inclusive, a creative will and guide to this co-evolution. (This is a quick summary based on my imperfect understanding.)

[panader0]

245. I'm an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac.

I lay awake at night and wonder if there really is a dog.

[Prophet 451]

247. rimshot please!

[panader0]

249. As a lifelong bricklayer, I have laid over two million units.

So I am also a Masonite.

[LongTomH]

277. I thought that was a type of chipboard!

[mvd]

253. I am Christian..

However I do not really think organized religion where you have strict rules and hierarchy is productive. I prefer to grow spiritually as an individual and with peers.

[LeftishBrit]

263. Ethnically Jewish but atheist. Would describe myself as a secular humanist

I know a few people who seem to combine religions, by the way. In particular, I know one elderly widower, who was influenced by the religious beliefs of both his late wives, and is a Quaker and a Muslim at the same time.

[Prophet 451]

280. I know but the poll software doesn't allow that

[madokie]

270. I said atheist

but I don't believe in any higher power at all. we're no different than the bug that last hit my windshield. when I die I die and thats it

[intheflow]

272. Taoist Agnostic Atheist Pagan

Really depends on the day and context for me. There are days when I'm dead sure deities exist, and other days when I'm dead sure I would have killed myself if not for believing in some kind of higher power to give me strength to pull through.

I have a Masters of Divinity and all it really taught me was that Jesus was a great teacher, not divine, and I am not a Christian.

[Prophet 451]

281. Sounds familiar

My SO follows a blend of Kemeticism, Taoism and Paganism.

[Contrary1]

275. Other: All of the above options and all the others not included.

In the words of the Dalai Lama:

"Harmony among our different religious traditions is essential for world peace. Genuine harmony should be founded on mutual respect. And respect should be based on a recognition that all the world's major religious traditions are similar in having the potential to help human beings live at peace with themselves, with each other and with the environment."

[Prophet 451]

283. Wise words, IMO

[William769]

289. Locking. This is against the Statement of Purpose.

"RELIGION
Threads about current events related to religion, and threads about church-state issues are permitted under normal circumstances.

Threads about the existence/non-existence of God, threads discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of religion in general, and threads discussing the truth/untruth of religious dogma are not permitted under normal circumstances and should be posted under Religion.

Open discussion of religion is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered across all newsmedia."

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