Why is Kentucky poor AND right-wing?

[Ken Burch]

Is it really as simple as poor- and working-class whites caring more about not making common cause with blacks than about improving their conditions?

[Reter]

1. It's not only about race

Many are anti-choice, anti-gay marriage, pro-gun, pro-war, and anti-forced health care.

[Glorfindel]

9. "Forced health care?"

A great many of these right-wing morons are on Medicaid and feel it is THEIR right.

[Maedhros]

152. The Tea Party mindset is a pathology, and ultimately based on racism.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/matt-taibbi-on-the-tea-party-20100928

Scanning the thousands of hopped-up faces in the crowd, I am immediately struck by two things. One is that there isn't a single black person here. The other is the truly awesome quantity of medical hardware: Seemingly every third person in the place is sucking oxygen from a tank or propping their giant atrophied glutes on motorized wheelchair-scooters. As Palin launches into her Ronald Reagan impression — "Government's not the solution! Government's the problem!" — the person sitting next to me leans over and explains.

"The scooters are because of Medicare," he whispers helpfully. "They have these commercials down here: 'You won't even have to pay for your scooter! Medicare will pay!' Practically everyone in Kentucky has one."

A hall full of elderly white people in Medicare-paid scooters, railing against government spending and imagining themselves revolutionaries as they cheer on the vice-presidential puppet hand-picked by the GOP establishment. If there exists a better snapshot of everything the Tea Party represents, I can't imagine it.

After Palin wraps up, I race to the parking lot in search of departing Medicare-motor-scooter conservatives. I come upon an elderly couple, Janice and David Wheelock, who are fairly itching to share their views.

"I'm anti-spending and anti-government," crows David, as scooter-bound Janice looks on. "The welfare state is out of control."

"OK," I say. "And what do you do for a living?"

"Me?" he says proudly. "Oh, I'm a property appraiser. Have been my whole life."

I frown. "Are either of you on Medicare?"

Silence: Then Janice, a nice enough woman, it seems, slowly raises her hand, offering a faint smile, as if to say, You got me!

"Let me get this straight," I say to David. "You've been picking up a check from the government for decades, as a tax assessor, and your wife is on Medicare. How can you complain about the welfare state?"

"Well," he says, "there's a lot of people on welfare who don't deserve it. Too many people are living off the government."

"But," I protest, "you live off the government. And have been your whole life!"

"Yeah," he says, "but I don't make very much." Vast forests have already been sacrificed to the public debate about the Tea Party: what it is, what it means, where it's going. But after lengthy study of the phenomenon, I've concluded that the whole miserable narrative boils down to one stark fact: They're full of shit. All of them. At the voter level, the Tea Party is a movement that purports to be furious about government spending — only the reality is that the vast majority of its members are former Bush supporters who yawned through two terms of record deficits and spent the past two electoral cycles frothing not about spending but about John Kerry's medals and Barack Obama's Sixties associations. The average Tea Partier is sincerely against government spending — with the exception of the money spent on them. In fact, their lack of embarrassment when it comes to collecting government largesse is key to understanding what this movement is all about — and nowhere do we see that dynamic as clearly as here in Kentucky, where Rand Paul is barreling toward the Senate with the aid of conservative icons like Palin.

I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine about which demographic David is speaking when he says "there's a lot of people on welfare who don't deserve it."

[merrily]

27. Forced health care? What does that even mean?

Someone was forced to get surgery? A doctor was forced to operate?

[Art_from_Ark]

80. I think it means

"Forced to buy Health Care insurance"

[upaloopa]

104. More like forced to not pass on their emergency room bills

to someone else. Even if they can afford to pay some would rather we pay for them.

[theHandpuppet]

109. Wow.

I'll take a pass on even mustering a response to that.

[upaloopa]

112. Wow! There's that "wow" thingie again.

That is so fucking lame. I guess the wow means I violated some code you feel we all need to adhere to.
Well don't bully ok?

[merrily]

129. Dude, posting "wow" is not bullying.

[merrily]

128. Like it or not, that was a good part of the rationale we got for the individual mandate.

[merrily]

127. Yes, but did the poster who used the term know that?

[Art_from_Ark]

139. That's what I assumed, so that's why I qualified my post

with "I think it means..." But I based my assumption on the fact that the law is called the "Affordable Care Act" even though it appears to be mostly concerned with insurance, and everyone who is not insured will be forced to buy some sort of private insurance, which is somehow called "health care".

[merrily]

141. Yes, I understand what the ACA is about.

In broad strokes, anyway, if not every bureaucratic detail in its 2000 pages and administrative rulings.

What I didn't understand was the other poster's thinking. I was not faulting your post for lack of qualification, and I appreciate your efforts. I don't think you can fill me in on what the other poster was thinking, though. That poster doesn't seem to want to do it.

[B Calm]

82. Republican Wedge Issues! A divide and conquer strategy

that has worked great for the GOP.

A divide and conquer strategy, also known as “divide and rule strategy” is often applied in the arenas of politics and sociology. In this strategy, one power breaks another power into smaller, more manageable pieces, and then takes control of those pieces one by one. It generally takes a very strong power to implement such a strategy. In order to successfully break up another power or government, the conqueror must have access to strong political, military, and economic machines.

Furthermore, in order to maintain power and influence, large governments will often work to keep smaller powers and governments from uniting. In fact, this use of the principles within the divide and conquer strategy is most common. It is much easier to prevent small powers from linking forces than to break them apart once they have aligned.


Leaders who use a divide and conquer strategy may encourage or foster feuds between smaller powers. This kind of political maneuvering requires a great understanding of the people who are being manipulated. In order to foster feuds, for example, one must understand the political and social histories of the parties intended to take part in the feuds.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-divide-and-conquer-strategy.htm

[hifiguy]

113. Nixon invented it in its modern form

Reagan's people refined it

Rove and Atwater perfected it.

A heaping helping of racism - which is by all means not a South-only thing - with big doses of 'murkan exceptionalism, jingoism of the America, Fuck Yeah! type, and "fuck everyone else who ain't just like me-ism"

Dumb the masses down and feed them that bullshit 24/7/365 with the help of a compliant, corporate owned media that has exactly the same agenda.

Brains are an endangered species in this country.

[merrily]

130. They're wedge issues for both of the largest political parties.

[B Calm]

132. Protecting women's right to choice, protecting social security, etc etc are wedge issues?

[merrily]

134. A Republican might equally ask "Protecting second amendment rights is a wedge issue?"

The term "wedge issue" does not refer to the position taken by one party or the other, but how politicians use an issue. And, yes, both of the largest political parties use the same issues as wedge issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_issue

BTW, I don't agree that Democrats are always protecting Social Security or a woman's right to choose, nor that all Democrats even want to.

[B Calm]

138. I have never seen a democrat working to take away the second amendment. Sensible gun laws

are being used by republicans as a wedge issue.

The vast majority of democrats protect social security and choice, and the vast majority of republicans oppose.

[merrily]

140. Again, it is not the position taken that makes an issue a wedge issue, but how politicians use the

issue.

What is a sensible gun law to you is an infringement on second amendment rights to someone else.

And then, there is the whole issue of why do we need more laws when no one is enforcing the myriad of gun laws that exist.

Believe me, I don't want to debate gun laws. I live in Boston, where a kid got crippled for life simply for sitting in a high chair in her own kitchen while people outside were shooting at each other and someone had very bad aim. The only times I've posted in the gungeon were when I was working off the "Latest threads" and didn't notice the forum. But the issues are not as clear cut as your posts would suggest and neither is the position of the parties.

ETA: With a few exceptions, I have never seen a Democrat appear to be working to take away women's health choices, either. However, I disagree that a majority are actively working to protect them.

[elleng]

2. Repugs take advantage of low-information voters all over the country,

and they do their best to assure they REMAIN low-information voters.

[branford]

23. And that attitude is why many of those same voters will never vote Democratic.

Although my views are most decidedly liberal, I most certainly do not believe that everyone who doesn't subscribe to my beliefs is some stupid "low-information" rube. In my estimation, my political opponents are generally wrong, but not unintelligent.

People are complicated, and hold beliefs for a variety of reasons. Moreover, unlike many on this board, many hold a mix of both liberal and conservative beliefs. For instance, how many die-hard, blue-collar union members with liberal economic views also hold conservative attitudes toward issues like abortion, gun control, marriage and immigration.

You don't convince people to change their vote by implying they're stupid or ignorant. Arrogance and insults will have the opposite of its intended effect come election time.

[elleng]

28. I didn't say 'stupid,'

I said 'low-information,' and there is a real difference between the 2. There are reasons that low-information voters often prevail; it has a lot to do with 'propaganda,' which is in our faces 24/7.

You should know the difference between stupid and low-information, and what constitutes 'arrogance' and 'insults.'

The OP asks: 'Why is Kentucky poor AND right-wing?' and I provided what I think is a sound answer.

[branford]

34. If you try to convince someone that they should vote differently

because they effectively are "low-information" individuals, whether the allegations are stated or implied, your asserted nuance (of which I actually generally agree), would be meaningless and counterproductive.

I believe that many, if not the majority, of these purportedly "low-information voters" have more conviction and real information than might be readily apparent. They may simply believe or prioritize certain values (e.g., abortion, gun rights, immigration, economics of fossil fuels, etc.) are more personally important despite claims that they might be voting against their own economic interests or not acting in solidarity with other core Democratic constituencies. The perceived elitist regional positions that may prevalent in CA, IL, NY or MA (I'm a NYC attorney, btw) are not he same memes that commonly appeal in places like KY.

[elleng]

35. I would not discuss the matters with such a person in the same way I discuss matters at DU.

I would provide what I think is relevant information on the matters of importance to such person, as you do in matters you deal with in your NYC practice, and as I did in my practice in DC.

[branford]

63. I have no reason to believe you would talk down to these people, or anyone else.

My point was that I believe there are far fewer of these purported "low-information voters" that many believe, and the real problem is that many notable Democrats simply do not connect. I think the the low-information voter meme is often used as an excuse when national Democrats don't appreciate regional cultural and religious differences. It's easy to believe that others are brainwashed or uniformed from our very blue and elitist enclaves in NYC and DC, no less surrounded by very highly educated professionals like ourselves.

Do you recall Obama's statement, "They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Those sentiments may play well here in NYC, DC or other places, but will not win the votes coal miners in KY and WV.

[customerserviceguy]

84. You've eloquently stated some very good points

I see an awful lot of rural bashing going on around here, and I've lived in both big cities and small towns out in the country. There are some here who have an elitist mindset about people who tend to vote differently than they do.

[yeoman6987]

90. I agree with your overall reply

However, how can you explain them not wanting to vote for a Democratic nominee in Allison Grimes who shares some of their same beliefs like pro-2nd Amendment and pro-coal. It seems the Democratic Party at least tried to put somebody on the ticket that shared some of their values yet still may lose.

[customerserviceguy]

118. It may be that they distrust that she genuinely holds those positions

Or, it may be that they feel her presence would empower Democratic politicians who are not pro-2nd Amendment or pro-coal.

[Ampersand Unicode]

119. It's the Christian south and she's female?

Stephen Colbert's sister lost her campaign for SC Congress, to a "family values" guy who cheated on his wife but cast umpteen votes for the "sanctity of marriage." He also used campaign monies to cover up said affair and is now "living in sin" with his mistress. When I saw the results on TV, my first thought was "It's the south and she has boobs, 'nuff said." These people will forgive anything if you cast the right bigot votes.

She must've turned off voters because she's not submissive to her husband... and her husband isn't Stephen Colbert.

(I kid, I kid...)

[merrily]

135. Yes, but it's also the Republican South and she's a Democrat. And McConnell is an incumbent,

almost always a huge advantage, absent some massive scandal--and even then.....

[Tweedy]

117. So what do you do?

How do you speak to a person who informs you the democrats want to end social security, kill older people with health care reform and refuse to compromise on any issue? This person is highly intelligent in his field, and living in an email chain bubble.

[Recursion]

3. You could ask them. People do.

They feel like they have no control over or say in the direction society is going. Obama stated it tactlessly with the "God, guns, and gays" comment, but the basic idea is that: they were told if they worked hard they would be able to provide for their families, and that hasn't turned out to be true. And at the same time that started changing, the left was "winning" the national argument on a lot of cultural issues. It's not really that difficult to see why they conflate the two.

They grew up in a time when a single earner could provide for a family, outspoken public religion was common, white supremacy was the law or at least the social more, and homosexuals lived in the closet. Those things have been changing, and it's not very surprising that people group them together.

[raccoon]

89. Good post. nt

[BadgerKid]

137. +1.

I can hear it now: "Stop this anti-Christian shift in the social milieu by supporting corporate tax breaks, which will allow more jobs to be created and get this economy back on track. You see, it's all Obama's fault."

[The Magistrate]

4. unfortunately, Sir That Is A Large Part Of It

The rest is that they consider 'elites' to be not the local bosses and industrialists who run them ragged and rob them, but people with some education and urban mores, and channel towards these that portion of their resentments which are not directed towards black people.

[Fumesucker]

5. Poor whites vote more Democratic than wealthier ones

http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2012/03/23/voting-patterns-of-americas-whites-from-the-masses-to-the-elites/

Within any education category, richer people vote more Republican. In contrast, the pattern of education and voting is nonlinear. High school graduates are more Republican than non-HS grads, but after that, the groups with more education tend to vote more Democratic. At the very highest education level tabulated in the survey, voters with post-graduate degrees lean toward the Democrats. Except for the rich post-graduates; they are split 50-50 between the parties.

What does this say about America’s elites? If you define elites as high-income non-Hispanic whites, the elites vote strongly Republican. If you define elites as college-educated high-income whites, they vote moderately Republican.

There is no plausible way based on these data in which elites can be considered a Democratic voting bloc. To create a group of strongly Democratic-leaning elite whites using these graphs, you would need to consider only postgraduates (no simple college grads included, even if they have achieved social and financial success), and you have to go down to the below-$75,000 level of family income, which hardly seems like the American elites to me.

The patterns are consistent for all three of the past presidential elections. (The differences in the higher-income low-education category should not be taken seriously, as the estimates are based on small samples, as can be seen from the large standard errors for those subgroups.)

[Johonny]

11. Does national data taken from polls tell me much about a regional race in Kentucky?

It is interesting data, but I'm not sure a national poll tells me much about a regional race. Do the rural poor whites of Kentucky follow the national trend which might be dominated by high population states like California... I don't know. It doesn't seem to me that it has to.

[Fumesucker]

14. You might be surprised

As of June 26, 2010 Kentucky was 57% Democratic registered voters vs 37% Republican.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky#Politics

[JI7]

15. it shows Kentucky is not reflective of the country as a whole

check the race questions


http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=KYP00p2

[Fumesucker]

19. That's a bit simplistic

This came from your link and you can see that actual poor Kentuckians voted for Obama..

[JI7]

22. that's because of the mostly black voters, check the ones where only whites are asked

[Fumesucker]

26. Blacks make up 7.8% of Kentucky voters

And the two lower income ranges that voted for Obama were 23% of the vote.

Like it or not, higher income whites vote Republican in greater proportion than do lower income ones, even in Kentucky.

The big problem with white voters isn't the poor ones, it's the ones with money.

[Go Vols]

30. +1

[JI7]

31. of course they do

but a very large number of lower income whites still voted mccain . it's not about whether one votes more than the other. of course wealthier ones will vote republican for obvious reasons.

[Fumesucker]

45. It's interesting how much abuse poor whites come in for on DU for voting Republican

I really don't see the level of vitriol aimed at wealthy whites who vote Republican, it's like they get a pass for being Republicans.

Wealth privilege evidently.

[YoungDemCA]

46. IMO, it's because everybody expects wealthy whites to vote Republican

nt

[JI7]

48. abuse ?

discussion of why people vote the way they do is not abuse.

it's like saying black republicans are abused because they are singled out more than white republicans.

[Fumesucker]

54. I see the term "white trash" used here quite a bit

[JI7]

56. i see it mostly used against Palin and other non poor whites

but even then i don't think the term should be used.

[Fumesucker]

60. Trailer trash is another one I've seen here too

Then there's "dudebro" which I'm not even sure what that means but it doesn't seem to get used in a complimentary manner.

If you want people to join your movement then calling them derogatory names is not an optimal strategy, none of us can tell what race or income anyone is here unless they choose to share that information, posters really don't know who they are hurting or possibly angering using phrases like that.

[JI7]

61. yeah, but i don't think Obama used any of those against anyone

there was that god and guns thing but i think there was a lot of truth to that.

but cheney was the one who made the inbreeding joke about west virginia and i have seen it from many right wingers.

[Fumesucker]

68. You think there aren't any low income whites reading or posting on DU?

I'd be shocked if there weren't, not all poor people are illiterate, ignorant or stupid, even white ones.

[JI7]

69. there are some

but from what we have seen DU is mostly older, white, and pretty well off financially .

as for offensive terms used against people, i have seen it against just about every group on here which is why i don't consider DU to be some place full of great enlightened people.

[theHandpuppet]

59. That's the least of it

Stupid hillbillies, outhouse dwellers, toothless hicks, you name it. It's the last acceptable stereotype, even here on DU.

[branford]

66. You're a redneck, please vote for me . . . Not really a winning strategy.

[theHandpuppet]

71. Precisely

The "If you know what's good for you, you ignorant toothless fuck, you'll vote Democratic" strategy isn't going to win any hearts and minds. Meanwhile, over in Appalachia Group, I'm posting yet another report on generational poverty, thousands of layoffs, hungry children, lack of doctors and hospitals, et al. Then I come here to see thread after thread blaming the poorest and most vulnerable among us for election year failures, often in the most condescending and hateful language. Why has the democratic party been bleeding votes in Appalachia for a couple of decades now? Look around. Do folks really think Democrats are somehow constitutionally incapable of class warfare? I see it here all the time.

[Ken Burch]

110. I'm not attacking poor whites.

Just trying to understand the appeal to them of political and economic views that they have to realize, at some level, are not actually in their own interests.

[Fumesucker]

111. I wasn't really referring to you specifically

But terms like "trailer trash", "white trash", "toothless hillbillies" and so on are quite common on DU and I've never seen one of that sort of remark hidden.

Speak of any other ethnic group in such a derogatory manner and your post will be hidden and quite likely you will get a Pizza.

[theHandpuppet]

148. I have appealed to DUers on a number of occasions not to use those insults

I even created threads about the subject. When that didn't work I started alerting on such posts. That didn't work, either, as most of DU, apparently (or at least those serving on juries) thinks stereotyping an entire group of people with nasty pejoratives is fine and dandy and it's me who needs to "lighten up".

Thank you for speaking up on this issue. I really appreciate it.

[AngryAmish]

6. short answer: English civil war

[Ken Burch]

18. UH...Kentucky voters are Roundheads and they see progressives as Cavaliers?

...well, it's possible.

[Recursion]

122. Reverse that

The Cavaliers and the Scotch-Irish went to Virginia. The Roundheads and the Irish went to New England. The Cavaliers formed the small-government Democratic-Republican party (which, ironically, is organizationally what became the current Democratic party, though we've swapped cohorts in the interim). The Roundheads formed the Federalists, later the Whigs, later the Republicans (though, again, we've basically swapped bases since then). The Cavaliers did not believe in an activist ameliorative government and the Roundheads did.

[AngryAmish]

150. Both sides want laws that favor themselves and hurt the others

Plus sticking the other side's nose in it is always fun.

[BillZBubb]

7. Perhaps Kentucky is poor BECAUSE it is right wing.

Just a thought.

[merrily]

131. Was it ever rich, once slavery ended? (Not a rhetorical question. I would really like to know,

if you know.)

What I get fed in elementary school and high school was that the Civil War was between "the industrialized North" and "the agrarian South." Once slavery ended, farming huge cotton and tobacco plantations became a lot more expensive, even with "sharecropping." Their right to work laws were designed to get industries to leave the North and bring factory jobs to the South, and the laws worked some--until the "patriotic" job creators found it even more profitable to send the jobs out of the country entirely.

Between Emancipation (if not earlier), and the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Lee Atwater, etc., the Solid South was solidly Democratic, but I don't know if any of it was ever rich during that period. Maybe tourist states, like Florida?

[BillZBubb]

145. Most of the southern states have been consistently conservative through history.

And consistently poorer on average. Sure, they were Democratic after the Civil War, but those were conservative Democrats, who quickly turned republican when the Democratic party no longer welcomed racists or racial discrimination.

Southern culture, which persists to this day, is very deferential to the rich and powerful. Being anti-union is almost a religion. The few at the top do very well. Lots of poverty, poor education, and cronyism. That is the model the republicans want to impose on the rest of the country. It's almost as though the confederacy won.

[merrily]

156. I tend to read "Republican" when I see "right wing" and I should not do that. My bad.

I agree that the South was always right wing about slavery and Jim Crow. That was so even during the debates as to whether the South would side with the Revolutonaries or the Loyalists. The answer turned on slavery. John Adams, for one, put up a fight, but caved ultimately. (Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good? The good then, of course, being getting out from under the Brits.)

It was of course, the reason for the Civil War, much as some today want to revise the Articles of Secession considerably after the fact. But, there were also quite a few Southern Democrats who were populists on other issues, even if they intended their populism to benefit only whites.

Southern culture, which persists to this day, is very deferential to the rich and powerful.

With the possible exception of Native Americans, about whom I know much less than I should, is there any part of the US that not very deferential to the rich and powerful? Or just the very powerful, who will soon become rich as well because they are very powerful? The north not was only very deferential, but also distinguished between new money and old money (most old money in this country having been the direct or indirect result of slavery).

And this is good old Boston,
The home of the bean and the cod,
Where the Lowells talk only to Cabots,
And the Cabots talk only to God.

(And therein lies the reason that Joe Kennedy, Sr. was so determined that a "lace curtain Irishman" as wealthy Irish were known in Massachusetts (as opposed to "shanty Irish", was so determined to prove something to the Lowells and the Cabots, who would have ranked higher than him, even if they had gone bankrupt.)

I get the hatred of unions, too, given what I said in my prior post about "right to work" being what they used to get jobs from the North and West to into the Southeast-until the jobs left the country entirely.

It's almost as though the confederacy won.

Well put. Plenty of food for thought there, too. I suspect that is because the few at the top do very well all over this country and are pandered too by all politicians and everyone else. I think that may be the overarching issue, not North/South or conservative/liberal.

[Glorfindel]

8. Yes. Mississippi is even poorer and more right-wing, and it's absolutely mostly racism

Plus ignorance and idiotic religiosity. When you have preachers promoting Repukes from the pulpit, something is seriously amiss.

[yeoman6987]

93. I don't think we can say it is racism. Yet!

The Republicans will need to put an African American on their ticket and see how these states vote. If suddenly the Democratic Party wins these states then we know the answer. If they still votes Republican then they are being unfairly characterized.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. Lyndon Johnson had it figured out:

"I'll tell you what's at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

Ever since the Civil War the upper class whites have done their best to persuade poor white people that they have nothing in common with poor black people, and they have done this by encouraging racism in every way possible. Divide and conquer; keep everybody poor and fighting with each other.

[nomorenomore08]

33. +1000000

[daredtowork]

53. That's about the size of it. nt

[Scootaloo]

55. And there it is.

[Quayblue]

65. I truly believe this

And as such, I will always be an advocate for the poor. Once the poor join ranks, the USA has a true revolution.

[BrotherIvan]

75. Winner

I usually quote the scene with Gene Hackman from Mississippi Burning, but I will bookmark this quote for further use. Exactly right. And if you can convince people that liberals will take away your guns and all the scary black people will come get you, even better. Add in the gay agenda and baby killing and you have them right where you want them.

[JustAnotherGen]

77. +1

[mmonk]

81. Correct.

[Mr Dixon]

94. Agreed

Well said

[Arugula Latte]

96. There always has to be "The Other" for uneducated whites.

African Americans, Commies, Muslims, Mexicans, you name it ... And the corporate propaganda in this country has done a great job of convincing these people that Liberals are their arch enemy as well.

[theHandpuppet]

97. From what I can tell by some of the threads on GD...

Some liberals are doing a pretty good job of it all by themselves.

[cordelia]

106. Yep.

[merrily]

136. Some who profess to be Democrats are.

I question how many of them are liberals.

On the domestic, I am a traditional Democrat, yet sometimes greeted as a Karl Marx clone, the like of which has never been seen in the US before.

[get the red out]

155. Not that many

I was born and raised in Appalachia (what we call Eastern Kentucky), and have lived in Lexington, Kentucky for many years now.

Kentucky has always been Democratic by registration, and we usually have a Democratic Governor. I think because people don't fear democrats in local offices like they do in national offices. But not that many people outside of Lexington and Louisville could be called "liberals", in my opinion anyway.

My Dad (who passed in 2010) said something during the 2008 election that was interesting to me, he said he used to think of himself as a moderate but people around him had moved so far to the right that he had become a liberal by default.

[merrily]

157. I am not sure what you mean by "Not that many."

It's been a while since I read the thread, and I am tired, so I am not sure I am following. Please excuse me while I try to track.

Going from arugula latter's post to handpuppet's reply to arugula latte and then to my reply to handpuppet, I was referring to some DUer's who do a good job of convincing people that liberals are their worst enemy and wondering how many of the DUers who do that are liberals (which is how handpuppet had referred to them) as opposed to Democrats who are not liberals.

So, when you said "not many," were you referring to DUer's who bash (for want of a better word) liberals?

If so, I agree. Then again, they don't all self-identify as liberals, either.

My Dad (who passed in 2010) said something during the 2008 election that was interesting to me, he said he used to think of himself as a moderate but people around him had moved so far to the right that he had become a liberal by default.

I am sorry for your loss. No, he never became a liberal. The PTB of the party went neoliberal and further and further right and the loyalists followed suit, insulting the rest of us as they went.

[get the red out]

158. I meant not many liberals in rural Kentucky

Democrats for some local to the state offices.

Sorry for my misunderstanding.

[merrily]

160. Nothing to be sorry about I was glad for the info and I was grateful to commiserate with your Dad.

I only wanted to make sure I was understanding you and I wasn't.

[ieoeja]

99. Pre-dates the Civil War. In fact, that was a major factor in how slavery got legalized.

At least one southern state gave 40 acres to every plantation owner for every indentured servant they brought over from the old world. The indentured servant was also promised 40 acres. On the face of it, this sounds like a great idea.

However, they eventually ran out of land. Now you had a lot of plantation owners with a lot of land that needed a lot of workers. And you had a bunch of indentured servants promised land that did not exist. You can guess what they did.

"We could give you your 40 acres O'Hare, but all those Blacks in the field over there got here a year before you. They get the land first. So really it's their fault. A shame, really. That land should go to a good White man like you. If we could just hold on to them Black folk instead of freeing them after their period of indenture...?"

[DonCoquixote]

107. and yet

this same man, who many rightly scream at for his Vietnam war, had the courage to sign the civil rights act, even though, as he himself put it "we would be giving the South" to the GOP.

[merrily]

133. The concept was also in Gone With the Wind.

The movie version, anyway. I never read the book.

And Bob Dylan put it to music. http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/only-pawn-their-game

In a relatively recent PBS program, Dylan claimed he had never been making political points.

I disagree with him on both points. A huge number of top hits then were making political points, including Dylan's and the guy who shot Evers was a murderer, not "only a pawn." But, I also get what he meant about both issues.

[hifiguy]

147. If anyone knew whereof he spoke on this issue

it was LBJ. He was right then and he is still right now.

[KansDem]

151. "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man..."

[get the red out]

153. One of the most truthful statements ever

[JI7]

12. religion has a lot to do with it , isn't the creation museum located in kentucky also ?

[Quackers]

49. I think this is the biggest factor.

Religion still plays a huge part in this area of the U.S.

[kentuck]

13. The mine operators have had the miners enslaved for the last 100 years...

...and they were paid pauper wages.

I can recall when my Dad was a mule driver in the mines and worked for $20-$25 per week, under the most dangerous of circumstances.

I can recall when my uncle and Grandpa worked in the mines for $1 per day.

I can recall when they were paid with "scrip", not real money, and they could "trade" it at the company store for lard, salt, beans, corn meal, and flour.

They worked the miners to death and then they would skip town. The mine operators have done this forever and that is what they are doing now.

Mitch McConnell is not for the miners - he is for the mine operators. The history is shameful.

[Go Vols]

32. +1

[Munificence]

100. I can

present day (no need to "recall&quot point to at least 5 young"ish" men in Ky without college degrees that work in the mines and all bring home over $100K a year. None of these men are over 35 with the youngest being 26.

$100K+ a year is not much in the line of "enslavement".

I'm neither "here or there" on Ky, but those mining jobs and the support jobs around it are pretty damn good jobs in this day and age. My brother-in-law from Southern Ohio works in Ky also in the coal industry, no college degree either and he makes around $65K a year as a heavy equipment operator. He is actually thankful for his job, as his alternative would be Walmart at $8.00 an hour. What he is not thankful for is the war on coal.... so he votes a straight republican ticket an there is nothing we can do to win those folks like my brother-in-law over as we have declared war on coal and that is their livelihood. Take the coal away and you end up at Walmart....can't say I blame him.

[kentuck]

154. But they are fewer and far between...

https://www.kftc.org/campaigns/appalachian-transition/coal-production-and-employment-trends

<snip>
Today coal mining provides about 18,000 jobs in eastern and western Kentucky, down from about 48,000 just 30 years ago. Those jobs are important for our workers and communities. They tend to pay well and are often concentrated in counties with few other economic opportunities. Coal mining in eastern Kentucky also provides an important source of revenue for local counties and school systems, including funds generated through the coal severance tax and unmined minerals tax.

But the full story of coal’s impact on our economy is more complicated and troubling.

Many eastern Kentucky counties with the highest percentage of mining jobs and historically high levels of coal production are among the state’s worst in terms of poverty and unemployment.
The public health costs of pollution from coal operations in Appalachia amount to a staggering $75 billion a year in increased health care costs, injury and deaths, according to a 2011 peer reviewed study.
Kentucky tax payers spent $115 million more in just one year to subsidize and regulate the mining industry than the state received in tax revenue generated by the coal industry, according to an analysis produced by the Mountain Association for Community Economic Development.

[world wide wally]

16. I think they're concerned about their tax rates.

(sarcasm)

[mythology]

17. I'm sure some of it is race influenced

But also for years Republicans have made Democrats out to be over-educated snobs who look down on those without college degrees. Coal miners, for whatever their virtues or vices, aren't generally people with college degrees. Republicans have been effective at leveraging the idea that Democrats look down on poor people. Even something as simple as Obama talking about an arugula salad, or Bush being the guy you'd want to have a beer with while Al Gore gives a boring lecture, is part of this idea that Democrats are stuffy elites. Yes that idea, coming from Mitch McConnell, who has been in the Senate since 1985 and is married to a former Secretary of Labor and is worth somewhere north of 10 million dollars, is kind of silly. But it's also pretty effective.

Also Republicans are more in favor of coal as an energy source and coal is one of the primary economic drivers of higher paying jobs in that region. It's a job you didn't need a college decree for, it was relatively stable, paid comparatively well and has been a way of life for a long time in that area. Democrats are for renewable energy, which can be taken as doing away with the coal industry. In the long run, that's a good thing, but for the people who don't see themselves as having a better alternative, it's a scary proposition.

[JI7]

21. i think this is a big difference between white rural states like oregon and vermont

and the conservative states .

oregon and vermont are big on the environment and also not very religious .

in the conservative states environmentalism is mostly seen as "job killer" . it's not corporations ripping them off but environentalism and regulations.

[branford]

24. Definitely some good points.

"But also for years Republicans have made Democrats out to be over-educated snobs who look down on those without college degrees."

You can read many comments on this thread alone that sadly prove this very point.

[MattBaggins]

20. Joel Osteen

Understand why ANYONE would listen to that idiot, and you will start to see why the poor can vote for repugs.

[Lurker Deluxe]

103. Huh?

What does a Pastor of a church in Houston have to do with ...

I listen to Joel every now and again. He is broadcast on FM Saturday mornings and if I am driving I listen. Usually a really good feel good story that has something to do with religion. Never heard him say anything negative, I see nothing wrong with him.

[Bluenorthwest]

105. He's an anti gay 'prosperity Gospel' con man....

But other than that I'm sure he's just dandy.

[MattBaggins]

120. You see nothing wrong with him?

Nothing more sinister than sugar coated prosperity gospel.

He closes his eyes when he tells stories... Never trust someone who does that.

[Lurker Deluxe]

143. I have no issue with him ... no

I do not research everything I listen to, or read, or watch ... that would be quite tiresome.

If I hear a song on the radio I do not look up the band members to determine if I can like the song ...

If I decide I am going to read a book I do not look up the author and publisher to see if it will be a good read ...

Same thing as what I said, when I have had the opportunity to listen to his sermon I hear nothing but a good message. I am not a church going person so I would not attend any service, have never seen him on TV, my experience has been with maybe once every other month for 30 minutes on a drive.

What he says makes me feel good, that is all that matters to me. Is he a charlatan? Prolly. I just do not care. No more than I care if Patterson is a good person, his work entertains me.

[MattBaggins]

161. I have listened to some of his sermons and

have never heard a good message. Not sure what you have been listening too.

[hadrons]

25. Race and an authoritarian mindset

race is a big issue along with the type of religious dogma in the state ... also, rural living is hard and it sucks and a 'top-bottom' mentality is best to work within it since the gov't doesn't provide as much help as it could (this is where a committed Dem could make progress.)

[hrmjustin]

29. They got supply side Jesus!

[Algernon Moncrieff]

36. WV and KY have been lost for two reasons: Coal & Guns

If your state's livelihood depends on coal, you don't want to hear about climate change, cap & trade, clean energy, wind, or solar.

Working class white folk hunt in that part of the world, and they buy into NRA reasoning.

[theHandpuppet]

38. Please see post #37

Thank you.

[theHandpuppet]

37. Why is West Virginia poor and Democratic?

You see how that question works?

West Virginia
U.S. Senators: Democrats
Governor: Democrat
Secy of State: Democrat
State Auditor: Democrat
Attorney General: republican
State Treasurer: Democrat
Agriculture Commissioner: Democrat
Senate Majority Leader: Democrat (supermajority)
House of Delegates: Democratic (majority)
Rank by poverty rate: 43rd (Kentucky is 39th)
Gay marriage: yes

Stereotypes never provide an accurate picture.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

39. A Democratic state that Romney won by 26.76 percentage points.

The latest polling has Capito up 23.

I think it's fair to say that attitudes are changing there.

[theHandpuppet]

41. Yes, they are

Largely because the national Democratic Party has no interest in places like WV until the election cycle comes around and they want votes. You can't treat people as disposable or worse, invisible, for generations and expect them to be grateful for any crumbs dropped from the table. I understand their resentment.

[Cali_Democrat]

47. Let's be honest

If the Dems were running a white presidential candidate in 2008/2012....there's a great chance it would have gone blue.

It's the skin, stupid.

(BTW...I'm not calling you stupid, but you know what I mean)

[YoungDemCA]

50. Not a great chance

West Virginia has been trending away from the Democrats for a couple of decades now.

But yes, Obama's race (combined with the fact that he has a "foreign" sounding name, and is a big city affluent and educated black man-there's almost certainly racial AND class-based resentment there) doesn't help matters.

[theHandpuppet]

57. He's also viewed as a snob

When's the last time this president shook a hand in WV and Kentucky? Could he even point to Appalachia on a map? Robert Kennedy he ain't. You want to connect with the people you have to at least once in a while be willing to get into the trenches with them, face to face and hand to hand, even if that face or hand has some dirt on it.

[JI7]

72. but they supported Hillary Clinton and Romney

[theHandpuppet]

86. There are no simple answers but I can distill one for you

Romney: Friend of Coal
Hillary: Friend of Bill

[Algernon Moncrieff]

114. I think we fail in WV and KY for similar reasons that the GOP fails in NorCal and parts of the east

Some party members (especially many on DU) want rigid adherence on all issues on which the party has taken a position. The Republicans are the same. Others, like myself, think that we are a stronger party if we build a coalition around a few central issues such as tax fairness, union rights, and keeping jobs in America, but allowing leeway on issues with a lot of local and regional variability -- particularly guns and ag policy.

In days past, an administration would have given soething to these states to help soften the blow of turning away from coal, like seeing big defense contracts awarded, building some big infrastructure projects, or announcing some new military bases.

[Recursion]

121. Once upon a time, we had two parties and, separate from that, two political ideologies

Southern Democrats and Northeastern Republicans were allowed a lot of leeway on policy questions in exchange for loyalty on procedural questions. The GOP in the 1970s started moving towards a more parliamentary system, where all votes were party loyalty checks. Our party hasn't gone nearly as far in that (there are still southern conservative Democrats, though most of them got culled in 2010), but is moving in that direction.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

123. I remember "Liberal Republicans"

I think Mary Crisp was the last one. They were almost all purged in the Reagan years.

[Recursion]

124. New England held out: Lincoln Chafee, Olympia Snowe, (God help me) Mitt Romney

I'm thinking of Mitt Romney before his national election makeover.

[JustAnotherGen]

78. Off topic - personal perception

Some of the nicest people I've encountered in my life are from WV, Sunbright TN, and McCreary County KY. And I'm a black well educated affluent woman. This was about 12 years ago - doing a sales campaign - but I'd rather sell there as a stranger than in Orange County NY or Orange County CA.

[theHandpuppet]

85. Thanks! You're very kind.

[Peregrine Took]

42. Treat their stray animals very poorly - even roam onto interstate.

They don't neuter or spay them so the shelters are overflowing and the dogs just run all over the place. We stopped in a parking lot by a restaurant (Corbin) and there were several running around. Right off the interstate. I asked the waitress and she told me there was no room for them so they are just dropped off there with nowhere to go.
What you do unto the least of my brethren...

[theHandpuppet]

43. This country treats the children of Appalachia very poorly

Does anyone give a damn about them? Jeezus. Some food would be nice.

[NutmegYankee]

125. I volunteered in the Appalachia project several years.

Most people in this country have no idea what poverty really is. Seeing a family of 9 living in a two bedroom house with no plumbing in Lincoln County, WV is to finally realize we have some issues here at home.

[theHandpuppet]

144. Thank you so much for volunteering!

I feel ashamed that in this country we permit children to go to bed hungry every night when all could be fed for the price of one fighter jet.

Food, not bombs!!

[YoungDemCA]

44. Many of those poor and working-class whites don't vote at all

I question the notion of poor and working-class whites being more conservative than wealthier ones. Maybe that's true on issues relating to religious belief (social conservatism), but generally speaking, wealthier whites are both more likely to vote AND more likely to vote Republican.

[JI7]

51. yes, but that's true for all groups

i think when we talk about poor whites being more conservative it is more social conservatism we are talking about.

[branford]

58. Not voting is still a choice. It's a vote with the majority.

Also, the poor from all racial groups and geographic areas tend to have lower voting rates, and for a variety of reasons.

Maybe Democrats have to earnestly provide these people an actual reason to get out to vote, by their proven actions as well as election year proclamations.

[theHandpuppet]

67. Well said!

"Maybe Democrats have to earnestly provide these people an actual reason to get out to vote, by their proven actions as well as election year proclamations."

[Raffi Ella]

108. And taking an interest in the State, actually get involved and ask for their vote.

Republicans rule the South because they are connected to the People of the South, through the Church, through radio broadcasts and they know the heritage and how to manipulate it to their advantage.

You can't fault Republicans for GOTV in these Southern States, or fault the people for voting for them: The Right Wing Voice is the only voice they hear most of the time; at least they care enough to engage, Kentuckians respond to that.


Where is the Democratic Party is the question here. How dare Democrats allow the Great State of Kentucky to languish under Republican rule without putting up a fight.

[Kalidurga]

52. It's easier to blame people and point fingers than to solve a problem...

Poor people are usually the first to be blamed when things don't go right.

[theHandpuppet]

62. A snippet from my DU journal, 2006

The poor are not our enemies, the powerless are not our enemies, the hungry or uneducated are not our enemies. The ones pulling the strings in this country can be found among the uber rich and their corporate allies. They can have Ivy-League educations. They live in the best homes. They're still scumbags. I'll proudly take my poor hillbilly neighbors any day over their kind of trash.

[Kalidurga]

73. Thank you

I like my hillbilly kin and neighbors as well. I don't care if we have the same politics or not we all do what we can to help each other.

[AverageJoe90]

64. Race is a part of it, but it's far from the only one. nt

[DemocraticWing]

74. Poor whites vote Democrat or not at all, but the middle class votes heavily Republican.

I think the "not at all" part hurts Democrats in Kentucky. People have given up and think neither party will help.

[Warpy]

76. Preachers

Those old boys got bought up by Republicans years ago.

[get the red out]

79. Preaching from the pulpit

Right wing religion rules in this state.

[Mister Nightowl]

83. Bill Maher has already explained this

And there's a lot more states than Kentucky involved.

[seveneyes]

87. Poverty does not have a political wing

Nor does it have a race.

[Spider Jerusalem]

88. Some answers:

Kentucky is poor because Kentucky is rural. The major industries in the state have traditionally been coal mining and agriculture (especially tobacco farming). Kentucky is also Southern, and heavily Baptist and Catholic. The majority of the early settlement of Kentucky was from Virginia and Maryland in the late 1700's and early 1800's; most of the settlers were what's called "Scots-Irish"; from the lowlands of Scotland and the North of England. The culture of the Scottish border country developed over centuries of near-anarchy on the borders; the borderers developed a clan-based society, distrustful of outsiders and distant authority (and prone to blood feud; this is the culture that gave us the Hatfields and McCoys). One of the cultural characteristics of these people from the Scottish border country was stubborn pride; they may have been poor, by and large, but thought themselves the equal of any man nonetheless--which is something that's endured not just in Appalachia but across much of the American South; that pride coupled with Calvinist theology and a distrust of central governments is in part responsible for people "voting against their own interests" now (thanks in part to the Republican framing of income redistribution as "handouts&quot . Racism is also a pretty big part of it (Kentucky was a slave state, and that's a legacy that hasn't really gone away), but culture plays just as much of a part.

A good overview of the disparate influences of regional British cultures on the United States is "Albion's Seed", by David Hackett Fisher; I'd recommend it as being essential reading for understanding some of the persistent social/cultural differences in the USA today (which are lessening somewhat thanks to greater population movement and immigration, but haven't gone away).

[Glitterati]

91. I have family in Kentucky

and here's the simple answer.

These people hate their lives. They have no "future" because for generations, they didn't bother to finish high school, much less even consider college. They were going to follow their elders and go into coal mining.......

They vote against Democrats because the Republicans encourage them to blame others for their lot in life. They know how to stoke the hatred for their own lives so they can find someone else to blame. And it doesn't matter who the "blame" is directed at, it can change on a dime. It use to be blacks, now it's Hispanics. They turn their bigotry on and off like a switch.

The Republicans stoke their hatred and show them how to direct it at "others."

[Iamthetruth]

92. No

Not that simple. I believe your politics are not only. Part of tour parents but your surroundings. There is a world of difference between growing up in NY than KY and don't think one is better than the other.

[Arugula Latte]

95. Religious idiocy.

[Jamastiene]

98. They are poor because they keep electing shitasses for politicians.

Those shitasses in turn vote against anything that would actually help the poor.

[JoePhilly]

101. God wants it that way.

[Faux pas]

102. I've said it before and I'll say it again

ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.

[bklyncowgirl]

115. Coal

For many in this part working in the coal mines is the only life they know. Liberals want to close down the few remaining mines. While in the long run the global climate may be more important than a few coal mining jobs try telling that to coal miners and their families.

[Tweedy]

116. ?

Could it be the gop strategy of fibbing all of the time? See McConnell, Mitch, and claim you can keep Kynect without obamacare.

[BlueStreak]

126. The common element is ignorance

Not everyone who is poor is poor as a result of ignorance, stupidity, bad gene pool, or a culture that discourages intellectual processes, but that is quite often at the heart of poverty. And those same things are at the heart of right-wing thinking. The same ignorance that makes it impossible for a person to keep a well-paying job is the ignorance that seeks out the voices of Limbaugh et al to explain why it is the liberals that are behind your problems.

[MicaelS]

142. Read this commentary from The Guardian by Jonathan Haight.

Why working-class people vote conservative

But on matters relating to group loyalty, respect for authority and sanctity (treating things as sacred and untouchable, not only in the context of religion), it sometimes seems that liberals lack the moral taste buds, or at least, their moral "cuisine" makes less use of them. For example, according to our data, if you want to hire someone to criticise your nation on a radio show in another nation (loyalty), give the finger to his boss (authority), or sign a piece of paper stating one's willingness to sell his soul (sanctity), you can save a lot of money by posting a sign: "Conservatives need not apply."

Even on the two moral taste buds that both sides claim – fairness and liberty – the right can often outcook the left. The left typically thinks of equality as being central to fairness, and leftists are extremely sensitive about gross inequalities of outcome – particularly when they correspond along racial or ethnic lines. But the broader meaning of fairness is really proportionality – are people getting rewarded in proportion to the work they put into a common project? Equality of outcomes is only seen as fair by most people in the special case in which everyone has made equal contributions. The conservative media (such as the Daily Mail, or Fox News in the US) is much more sensitive to the presence of slackers and benefit cheats. They are very effective at stirring up outrage at the government for condoning cheating.

Similarly for liberty. Americans and Britons all love liberty, yet when liberty and care conflict, the left is more likely to choose care. This is the crux of the US's monumental battle over Obama's healthcare plan. Can the federal government compel some people to buy a product (health insurance) in order to make a plan work that extends care to 30 million other people? The derogatory term "nanny state" is rarely used against the right (pastygate being perhaps an exception). Conservatives are more cautious about infringing on individual liberties (eg of gun owners in the US and small businessmen) in order to protect vulnerable populations (such as children, animals and immigrants).

In sum, the left has a tendency to place caring for the weak, sick and vulnerable above all other moral concerns. It is admirable and necessary that some political party stands up for victims of injustice, racism or bad luck. But in focusing so much on the needy, the left often fails to address – and sometimes violates – other moral needs, hopes and concerns. When working-class people vote conservative, as most do in the US, they are not voting against their self-interest; they are voting for their moral interest. They are voting for the party that serves to them a more satisfying moral cuisine. The left in the UK and USA should think hard about their recipe for success in the 21st century.

[BillZBubb]

146. Very weak analysis.

His attempts to define fairness and liberty are laughable. He totally ignores the racial element in right wing voting.

[fadedrose]

149. Coal and coal-mining, carbon, climate change

It's all about mining. It' going down a bit, because government regulations are not beneficial to the industry.

I've heard some miners say (only in TV interviews) that they know that coal is dead, and the sooner they start retraining, the better. I resent the lady that HC is supporting because she keeps saying how much she loves coal and will bring back the industry if she is elected.....bull. Coal is dead unless they find a real cheap way to make it clean....

With all the ice melting and making the planet lighter, man's contribution to global warming must be reduced or ended, and some warming may be natural, but we can't help pile on more.

The dem governor of Kentucky accepted ACA for Kentucky and it's doing well there....but Obama designed ACA, and some segments of the Dem Party have made Obama a dirty name, so he can't be used in the election.

Thus, HC enters, and I guess coal isn't bad anymore (like oil, pipelines, etc)

[kentuck]

159. I've been there.

Poverty is a hole that is very difficult to climb out. Especially when there is no opportunity. When you have nothing, even the least amount of money looks like a lot. It is all relative. If your father made $1 per hour, then you are a success if you can make $2 per hour.

For decades, many children did not finish grade school, let alone high school. College was for "rich folks".

It has been a mindset.

And when they preach the virtues of hard work, many a young man has gone down in the hole to work for nothing more than basic food ingredients. The mine operators kept all the wealth and left the miners broke down and in bad health. It is only recently that a few miners were able to make good money, but most of the young people were left behind with no jobs at all.

Not all of them are right-wing or racist. There are about 500,000 more Democrats than Republicans in the state of Kentucky. The trick is to get them to the polls. When you are hungry and homeless, it doesn't much matter what color the person is that is sitting by you. That is not to say that there is no racism, but not necessarily with the very poor.

Poverty and lack of education have hurt Eastern Kentucky, not to be confused with other parts of the state, Lexington and the Blue Grass, Louisville and the urban areas, Bowling Green and farming areas. It is not fair to include the entire state of Kentucky as right-wing and racist.