Observed 'White Guilt'

[RadicalGeek]

I have to get this out into the open, at whatever risk it poses.

Yesterday, our reading group, formed out of group that discussed books like Rules for Radicals, Pedagogy of The Oppressed and A Theory of Liberation sat down to discuss the recent Atlantic article "The Case for Reparations".

One of the participants did mention that race was, indeed, a legal construction, but also mentioned that all White's have benefited somewhat from the things described in the Article.

She has done this before when we were discussing other books, and it got me to thinking that she may be an real example of the "White Guilt" that the Right often accuses many progressives of.

To me, I cannot feel guilt over something I had no control over! I was born the way I was, my attitudes towards other groups, that is something I can control.

Has anyone else ever observed something similar. Am I missing something?

[Warren Stupidity]

1. "She has done this before" - "this"? Express an understanding

that the US is a deeply racial-caste structured society, has been for nearly 400 years, and continues to be one, and that by simply being born into the right caste one benefits from that structure?

That "this"?

How dare she?

[orpupilofnature57]

26. Agreed, Guilt is a mechanism of reality and part of awareness . And

feeling guilty about something that isn't your fault, is social conscience .

[1StrongBlackMan]

27. Well put! eom.

[JaneyVee]

2. I don't believe in white guilt, I believe....

There are white people who recognize the very real white privilege this country has and those who don't. I've never met anyone who felt guilty being white, only the racial realization of the privilege of being white in this country.

ETA: The case for reparations by Tanehesi Coates isn't about white guilt, it's about the realization that we have socially as a nation oppressed a group of people for so long that they face some severe disadvantages today as a result of our nation's past actions. It's not about guilt, its about reality and responsibility.

[RadicalGeek]

4. That is What I Took From The Article Too

In fact, we spent a good amount of time discussing that and what we could do to right it.

THAT is going to be a difficult, long, and perhaps endless struggle.

[NOLALady]

3. So,

you believe that she felt "guilt" because of her observation that whites have benefited from the Legal Construct?

[GeorgeGist]

5. White privilege ...

Is what you're missing.

[MineralMan]

6. All of us who are caucasians in the United States acquire

considerable privilege at birth. It's not a matter of guilt; it's a matter of recognizing that privilege and doing what we can to make sure that our privilege does not harm others.

I think that's what you're missing in that woman's comments.

Those with privilege acquired at birth need to be aware that the privilege exists.

[brush]

7. Yeah, you're missing quite a lot

Quite an expansive and well research article and you seemed to have gotten only that you don't have white guilt from it.

The article, and those that speak of the need to acknowledge white privilege, are not pushing white guilt.

They are simply arguing that acknowledgement of white privilege is the first step in personally realizing that

as a white person in America you've benefited from it and because of it are in an ideal position to begin

figuring out ways to extend those same privileges to everyone.

[RadicalGeek]

8. As I Said

We discussed this notion of these benefits, and what to do about it.

But as an aside, to me 'Guilt' implies a choice. I did not choose to be born White.

And I did glean a lot from this article, I was ashamed, but I wouldn't say I felt guilty!

[cyberswede]

13. Guilt doesn't always imply choice.

Benefiting from circumstances not of one's choosing can still cause guilt.

Survivor's guilt (from natural disasters, combat, plane crashes, etc) is one example.

[RadicalGeek]

15. OK

I can accept that

[Iggo]

9. Yes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. but you can certainly be aware of how being white improves your prospects in many ways

the same way being black does not and wonder if there is something you can do to make life less unfair who are not white.

said in response to:

To me, I cannot feel guilt over something I had no control over! I was born the way I was, my attitudes towards other groups, that is something I can control.

[RadicalGeek]

16. --THAT-- was a question I did ask

What can WE do.

Or am I already doing things.

This is all getting very confusing!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. i think what you call white guilt is what i call white people who acknowledge their privilege

[sufrommich]

11. Recognizing the privilege of being white in this

society isn't "white guilt",it's called being realistic.

[RedCappedBandit]

12. So you acknowledge white privilege

I'm not quite sure what you're actually disagreeing with, from what you posted.

The participant said that whites have benefited. I don't see how that's an implication that you should feel guilt.

[Enrique]

14. you are responding defensively

according to what you yourself write, she isn't telling you to feel guilty but you are answering as if she were. Of course I wasn't there, but I imagine the discussion was not very productive.

[RadicalGeek]

17. Actually It Was

So much that we decided to carry on next month!

[1StrongBlackMan]

33. Great Observation ...

she isn't telling you to feel guilty but you are answering as if she were.

[gollygee]

18. How is this an example of her feeling guilt?

She said she recognizes that all white people have benefitted from white privilege. That isn't saying she has any sense of guilt. What did she say that made you feel like she had feelings of guilt?

[AverageJoe90]

19. You are not alone, my friend, by any means.

Coming from someone, who, admittedly, once had his own issues with "White Guilt", this is indeed unfortunate. It is especially unfortunate when someone comes out and absolutely INSISTS that all white people, have, somehow, benefitted from institutionalized racism, etc.

Here's a question that should be asked: Did all Japanese benefit, when their military was committing the Rape of Nanking, and taking home Korean and Chinese, etc. "comfort women"? And did all Soviet Russians reap benefits when hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians died thanks to horrific amounts of criminal incompetence & negligence in regards to certain of Stalin's failed collectivization policies? Do all Chinese now benefit from discriminatory violence against Tibetans, Uighurs, etc.? Do all Israelis now benefit from discrimination against Palestinians?

Simply put, the answer, even in these cases, is no. Just as not all American whites have ever reaped benefits from institutionalized racism. In fact, in this day and age, I'd even go as far as to wager that the large majority of white people now living, have not. We fail to understand this at our own peril.

[Rex]

20. Ever been pulled over for 'driving while white'?

Ever been profiled/harassed by police for 'walking while white'? Didn't think so. Just because you fail to understand white privilege, doesn't mean it is some mythical creature.

[kwassa]

24. You don't have the correct answers to your own questions, unfortunately.

Yes, all Japanese benefited from the Rape of Nanking, and other Japanese conquests.
Yes, all Soviet Russians benefited from the oppression of the Ukraine.
Yes, all Chinese benefit from discrimination against minorities.
Yes, all Israelis benefit from discrimination against Palistineans.

and yes, all white Americans benefited from institutionalized racism.

and I know you have put me on ignore because you have shown yourself unable to answer MY questions on the subject of white privilege. This is how you hide from conflict.

[1StrongBlackMan]

34. You, too? ...

It's why I no longer ride his merry-go-round.

[kwassa]

38. He puts people on ignore that he can't answer.

I can still respond to his poorly thought-out opinions. He just can't see them.

Doesn't hurt anyone but him.

[badtoworse]

30. +1 No guilt here either.

[LostInAnomie]

21. It exists.

Talk to enough liberals and you're sure to find a few that are quite vocal about it. They believe in a collective guilt for actions that either happened centuries ago and that somehow we should level the cosmic scale. It's idiocy.

Just be fair to everyone and work to set up a system where everyone has the same opportunities. Guilt over something you had no part in is pointless.

[RadicalGeek]

22. Exactly--sorta

Now I'm wondering if I did play a small part, by virtue of getting something; a job, etc because of it.

Or maybe even a traffic ticket!

[1StrongBlackMan]

36. The "actions" ...

didn't happen centuries ago, there are occurring to this very day.

Guilt over something you had no part in is pointless.

Denying w/p is perpetuating the racial status quo.

[RadicalGeek]

23. Part of Me

Thinks I shouldn't have opened my mouth about this.

But now I seem to be asking the questions that the article may have wanted me to ask in the 1st place.

[Brickbat]

28. From your story, it looks like she made an observation and expressed no guilt.

So I guess I'm not sure where you see the guilt.

[RadicalGeek]

29. Perhaps

It is how I (mis)interpreted her observations?

[TBF]

31. This is a pretty good article

about the origins of white privilege (and the Wellesley professor who has brought the concept into the mainstream).

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-origins-of-privilege

When you read about this it is not surprising you would have feelings about it. I think that is healthy and glad you are willing to look at the material. I've seen articles in places like the WSJ where they declare white privilege a "myth" and so forth. I'm glad you are willing to learn from someone else's perspective.

[1StrongBlackMan]

32. Here's a Thought Exercise ...

Imagine you joined that same reading group. Upon joining you are introduced to the members. Being the smart and quick study that you are, you commit the names to memory and as the respectful person that you are, one use the member's name, whenever you address them.

One of the members is introduced to you by the name of "Piggy."

During the gathering, one of the member who was introduced to you as "Piggy", makes a particularly insightful and cogent point, which you acknowledge. Then, he/she makes another, then another, point that you find to be spot on ... clearly, "Piggy" is one of the brighter, more insightful people in the room

After the event, while having coffee you strike up a conversation with "Piggy" ... and find that he/she really enjoys the intellectual stimulation that the reading group offers; but he/she confides that she/he is deeply hurt by people calling her/him "Piggy", and that he/she prefers her/his given name, Bobby/Bobbie.

In subsequent meetings, people continue referring to her/him as "Piggy" ... but you, with the knowledge that that name is offensive to him/her, refrain and refer to "Piggy" as Bobbie/Bobby.

Now ... you have two choices: you can raise the issue, expressing to the larger group that she/he is offended by the name; or, you can remain silent and allow the practice to continue ... after all, you had/have nothing to do with Bobby/Bobbie being over weight, nor did you have anything to do with the group's using that name.

Now ... to address the OP ... If you choose the first option, you would be like the "Observed white guilt" woman ... she recognizes a phenomena and communicates that observation to the larger group ... whether the group accepts or even acknowledges the phenomena, or not. On the other hand, if you choose to remain silent (even as you personally refrain from engaging in the conduct), you cannot say that your silence does not perpetuate the status quo (i.e., the continuing use of the hurtful name).

Also, the "white guilt" that the right likes to talk about is the mere mention of, but more particularly, any actions by white people to address racism.

[Vattel]

35. Obviously whites have benefitted from discrimination against blacks.

I am not guilty about that, but it does suck.

[AverageJoe90]

40. ALL whites?

Now, I don't doubt there have been some individual instances of such, but, again, how does it magically benefit all white people?

Here's the answer: it doesn't. Never, in any era, has it worked quite that way here in America. My god, even in South Africa this wasn't true.....(yes, even if some whites in both countries were once convinced into *believing* that it benefitted them, or even everybody else, too)

[Vattel]

42. I agree with you--not every white. But less opportunity for blacks does translate

into more opportunity for whites even if not every white benefits from that.

[gollygee]

37. What I'm taking away from this

is that, for some people, it seems to work like this:

If black people fight againt or complain about racism, they are "playing the race card" and shouldn't be listened to.

If white people fight againt or complain about racism, they are "feeling white guilt" and shouldn't be listened to.

It sounds like an excuse to not really listen to the arguments, and simply ignore racism. Especially since she said nothing that suggests she feels any kind of guilt.

[1StrongBlackMan]

39. I don't know which is worse ...

ignoring the issue of the racial status quo by excluding white privilege from the discussion ... Or, discussing it from the repeatedly renounced, and decidedly right wing frame of, "white guilt"?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. yup.

[uponit7771]

44. +1

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. I'm conflicted about this.

Is it possible to recognize the reality of black marginalization and white privilege without the impotent hand-wringing that only helps to preserve the status quo?

In other words, to some degree, I see that hand-wringing is itself privilege. "I feel bad about how good I have it." is a form of self segregation.