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Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:02 AM

Hi DU! I'll be voting in the Scottish Independence Referendum on Thursday...


.. I will be voting YES.

If one day your state had the opportunity to secede, how bad would the situation have to be in the US for you to vote YES for independence?

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Reply Hi DU! I'll be voting in the Scottish Independence Referendum on Thursday... (Original post)
sibelian Sep 2014 OP
malaise Sep 2014 #1
sibelian Sep 2014 #4
nxylas Sep 2014 #14
sibelian Sep 2014 #19
malaise Sep 2014 #142
JustAnotherGen Sep 2014 #2
sibelian Sep 2014 #5
LiberalElite Sep 2014 #31
JustAnotherGen Sep 2014 #40
jwirr Sep 2014 #75
jeff47 Sep 2014 #79
JustAnotherGen Sep 2014 #82
NutmegYankee Sep 2014 #3
sibelian Sep 2014 #8
NutmegYankee Sep 2014 #15
riqster Sep 2014 #45
FourScore Sep 2014 #137
cali Sep 2014 #6
sibelian Sep 2014 #7
magical thyme Sep 2014 #39
sibelian Sep 2014 #123
Promethean Sep 2014 #9
pampango Sep 2014 #11
sibelian Sep 2014 #12
Promethean Sep 2014 #17
DebJ Sep 2014 #47
jwirr Sep 2014 #78
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jwirr Sep 2014 #90
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JI7 Sep 2014 #10
sibelian Sep 2014 #13
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #21
Demit Sep 2014 #42
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2014 #57
Dorian Gray Sep 2014 #16
sibelian Sep 2014 #22
Dorian Gray Sep 2014 #23
3catwoman3 Sep 2014 #56
seaglass Sep 2014 #18
sibelian Sep 2014 #20
Richard_uk Sep 2014 #28
merrily Sep 2014 #33
seaglass Sep 2014 #38
Demit Sep 2014 #48
Nye Bevan Sep 2014 #24
merrily Sep 2014 #29
rpannier Sep 2014 #32
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sibelian Sep 2014 #139
La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2014 #141

Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:06 AM

1. How is it looking?

I'd love you to win but I'm hearing that NO is likely to win

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Response to malaise (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:30 AM

4. It depends very much on who you listen to


Polls vary wildly, some of suggested 8 point leads in favour of yes, some 8 point leads in favour of no.

But let's put it this way: If Cameron, Clegg and Milliband had to come hurtling up to Scotland to campaign for no less than 2 weeks before the referendum they can't be thinking they get to be complacent. For months they've been ignoring it. I think if the mainstream parties think its too close to call that tells us something.

The mainstream press in the UK are in full on "Save the Union" mode. I don't think anyone's treating this as a foregone conclusion.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:19 AM

14. The Daily Heil has gone even more batshit insane than usual

I was at my parents' house the other day, which meant I got exposed to a non-lethal (but still toxic) dose of the Mail. They seem to have decided (the Mail that is, not my parents) that the best way to "save Britain", as they put it, was to indulge in some amateur psychoanalysis of Alex Salmond. Because we all know that a country can only become independent if the person spearheading the pro-independence movement is a living saint, like Richard Attenborough's Gandhi (I suspect they were rather less sympathetic to the real Gandhi).

One story was about a Scottish rugby player (!) declaring that the reason that Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon want to leave the union is because they are childless, and therefore don't understand families. Another 2-page spread details how Salmond became a "raging nationalist" (a tautology in Mailworld) because he was dumped by an English girl as a young man. I am not making this shit up, I promise.

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Response to nxylas (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:40 AM

19. I'm sure you're not making it up


I think the Mail's gone utterly stark staring bonkers, even for them. It's like reading the diary of a hormone-addled teenager. "WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE MEEEEE...."

I have to say the big surprise for me was the Guardian, which as revealed itself to be a tabloid for people who think they're smart. They've got slightly better in recent months but Steve Bell still can't get over the fact that Alec Salmond is a. Scottish and b. slightly rotund. Simon Jenkins and Susanne Moore starting saying vaguely sensible things a few weeks ago...

Don't even get me started on the Telegraph. My Mum reads it. She's now convinced we're going to be invaded by Putin.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #4)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 03:58 PM

142. Rooting for you

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:09 AM

2. I can't imagine that


Scenario - I've lived in two states - NJ and NY. I'm not counting Alabama as that was our "US Address" when we lived in West Germany. I can't imagine NJ or NY voting to secede.


But I think - the people of Scotland have a right to self determination.

This to me - is the right way to achieve that. No blood shed - no guns fired.

If you are succesful - may this serve as an example for others.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:33 AM

5. "If you are successful - may this serve as an example for others."

It would be something, wouldn't it?

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:14 AM

31. I'm in NY -

I doubt we'd ever vote to secede - but I for one wish some other states would...

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Response to LiberalElite (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:42 AM

40. I'm from the greater Rochester Area

Went to school in the Niagara/Buff region.

I have a few friends up there that would like secede Western NY / the US and join Canada!

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Response to LiberalElite (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 01:46 PM

75. That was my first thought. I would not want my state to secede but I would vote for some others to

do it.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 01:59 PM

79. Having lived in upstate NY for a while

I could see the upstate part of NY wanting to secede from the NYC part.

The NYC area utterly dominates state politics, so many upstate folks feel like they're not represented.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #79)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:10 PM

82. The land of the hard flat A's

By that - I mean I get made fun of in NJ and in NYC for saying aaaaaaaaaaaple jaaaaaaaaaaaacks. Yeah folks - are different out 'West'. Back home - it's just 'wings'.

Putting Buffalo in front of that is just stupid.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:20 AM

3. It could never get bad enough. I'm an American first, Nutmegger second.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:03 AM

8. I do wonder if it's just a question of scale...


I think it probably would seem strange to leave a union as huge as the US. For some reason leaving the UK seems more reasonable and I think I feel that way because of the UK's size. I can't make that sound rational, I'm afraid....

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Response to sibelian (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:19 AM

15. Scotland also has a history as an independent nation.

US states (with a notable exception) were always a minor subdivision of a larger form of Government. And then the Civil War ended the common identification of people as a citizen of a state before the country. With a highly mobile population, people are born elsewhere and may in fact live in several states during a lifetime. I have family scattered across the East Coast. I was born myself in the Appalachia region, but could never conceive of living in an independent state there.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #15)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:58 AM

45. Took the words out of my mouth.

I support Scottish independence, but America is set up differently. Plus, Ohio was never a sovereign nation, so there is no history such as Scotland has.

Edward Longshanks must be pissing himself in the grave right now.

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Response to riqster (Reply #45)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 02:18 PM

137. Do it for William!

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:36 AM

6. what's your sense of the vote? Yea or Nay?

 

No, I don't think I'd for secession in my state. It just doesn't make sense to me.

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Response to cali (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:01 AM

7. Don't know!


I've a sneaking Yes feeling but it's very sneaking and it's what I want to so I have to watch myself. Certainly the Yes campaign seems a lot happier... so hard to tell. Polls are all over the place.

Salmond seems a lot calmer than Cameron, Clegg or Milliband...

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Response to sibelian (Reply #7)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:38 AM

39. I don't think happier reflects ahead, so much as hope

 

versus fear.

Those voting "no" aren't hoping for Scottish independence, they're fearing it.

That's my gut response, anyway, for what it's worth.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #39)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 03:10 AM

123. It seems very much that way to me, too.


The Yes campaign has been very carnival... No seems awfully inward looking and flinchy...

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:07 AM

9. If California and some other states were to secede

With the objective of escaping Oligarchy and the rest of the RW insanity I would move to those states in a heartbeat.

If Texas and other states were to secede with the objective of becoming even more RWingly insane I'd say good riddance.

If my state ends up being in the second category, I will move to Canada and claim political asylum.

Honestly though I think we need to carve the US up into a few individual nations. Our population is too spread out and different in needs and ideology to be sustainable as a single cohesive nation. Some peaceful secessions leading to a few new nations being formed would be a much better solution to the civil war I fear is coming.

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Response to Promethean (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:17 AM

11. But could we move to California if it were to secede? Would it have "European-style" immigration

laws? Probably since that it what liberal countries tend to have liberal immigration laws, and California would certainly be a liberal nation, but who knows for sure.

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Response to Promethean (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:18 AM

12. "the civil war I fear is coming" - I hear that so often, Promethean.


I've been hearing it for well over a decade and half now from Americans of all stripes. Do you really believe it's possible? It seems terribly unlikely to me, although I freely admit that I don't live in the States and have no more basis for my gut feeling than a sense that the US is an unusually stable political structure. I just think so few people would benefit from actual civil war - in my experience most ordinary people are nowhere near as politicised as politics junkies like you and I that frequent message boards.

I certainly see no big deal in nations splitting up into smaller parts but that's probably because I'm in Europe where we all split up and get back together for all sorts of reasons all the time. It's a centuries-old sport with us.

I've an American friend called Darren living in Scotland just now who thinks a split up of the US is a ridiculous idea. He cites the US Civil War as a big factor in his judgement, why go through all that to save a union just to throw it away a few centuries later? I wasn't sure what to say to him. I don't see how it has any logical bearing on the current political landscape. Emotional, yes, but not necessarily logical. But there we are, I'm ignorant. For many years I had no idea that the US Civil War was such a big deal I had NO idea how many casualties it entailed. Perhaps some emotional reasons are good enough.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:32 AM

17. I see it as a possibility, not an inevitiability

I am simply looking at the signs. Police force becoming more militarized and hostile to the citizenry. Government institutions that accomplish almost nothing and ignore the needs of the citizenry with the little bit they do. Wealth accumulating in fewer and fewer hands and in greater concentrations. Rapidly decreasing standard of living except among the top of the wealth strata. Rule of law being twisted against those among the lower wealth strata while those at the top are virtually immune to the law (look up Robert H Richards). Citizens stockpiling weapons.

The real kicker is though that there are two factions among the populace with very different and absolutely clashing ideologies in regards to how we should run our society to end the above problems. If we get to the point where the problems drive people to open rebellion we will have at least two factions who will be hostile to each other.

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Response to Promethean (Reply #17)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:09 AM

47. However those factions are not geographically distributed in a manner supporting

secession. It is more of an urban/rural split.

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Response to DebJ (Reply #47)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 01:55 PM

78. Or a have - have not split.

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Response to jwirr (Reply #78)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:54 PM

89. Both. As evidenced by the have-nots who support the haves screwing them over.

And yes the economic elite in cities often have a different viewpoint/principles set then the middle and lower classes.

So the split is completely not geographically oriented so as to allow for secession.

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Response to DebJ (Reply #89)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 03:26 PM

90. That I completely agree with you on. We would be required to fight our next door neighbor in some

cases. It was bad enough when it was North vs South. We saw that in the PBS show Roosevelts. While Teddy's dad was away fighting for the Union his mother was sending care packages to her family in the South. Today neighborhoods would be at war house to house.

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Response to Promethean (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:03 AM

25. Secession or devolution of some federal powers to individual states.

Consider your state's share of the gargantuan military share of the federal budget. What would your governor/legislature choose - funding the CIA and interfering in other country's civil wars or repairing your state's bridges and roads? Drones or agricultural subsidies in times of drought? Time for devolution of military powers to the individual state legislatures, as in, we'll fund our state's national guard and they can only operate within our borders. Close down all those overseas bases left over from various wars. Just imagine what YOUR state could do to improve the quality of life/infrastructure for its residents if your state received back it's share of the national military budget.

But . . . .but . . . the MIC, CIA, Wall St., Big Banking, endless war, etc. If major blue states seceded, how would they survive?!?!

Yeah, I know, all kinds of complications, but devolution of powers is something worth thinking about.

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Response to Promethean (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:05 AM

26. I wonder of Pago Pago would want to secede?

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:11 AM

10. not the same thing

For a US state to secede would be more comparable to a part of england itself leaving.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:18 AM

13. ? Not sure what you're saying J17


Are you addressing the fact that Scotland's already a country?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:42 AM

21. Though the current autonomy that Scotland has is probably slightly less than a US state

An American state has more freedom to choose how it finances its part of government - sales taxes, property taxes, income taxes and so on. Scotland can vary the income tax rate slightly from the overall UK one (but has not yet done so), but that's it, really. A state has a national guard - Scotland has no such thing. The differences in laws between states is more than that between Scotland and England (and I think Scotland is more restricted on which areas it could change laws, if it wanted, though I'd have to look into that).

English regions don't have fixed boundaries - things get organised in all kinds of ways, and there's nothing approaching the political autonomy that US states have (county and city councils are even restricted by central government in the levels of property taxes they can levy). Here's a diagram of the different ways England gets divided up for different purposes:


http://alasdairgunn.deviantart.com/art/Tortured-geography-481305396?q=gallery%3Aalasdairgunn&qo=1

But Scotland has a long-standing cultural 'border', with England, that states don't have. That, I think, makes independence seem more likely than a state splitting off. Hawaii is probably the closest in spirit (I've never been there, but I understand the population mix is very 'Pacific', and it had a history as an independent entity).

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:49 AM

42. That chart would be fascinating if it was readable.

 

I followed your link but even there there's no way to see what the copy says

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Response to Demit (Reply #42)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:20 AM

57. There is a 'download' option on the right, but it's enormous - 12740x7800

a 66M PNG file. That shows you the towns on each map too (though that is the detail needed for the bottom right picture, since it shows the cities that are 'unitary authorities', which can be smaller than 200,000 people).

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:24 AM

16. It would have to be absolutely terrible

I'm proud of our country and I wouldn't want to divide it. (Of course, the only states that speak of seceding are those who think the US is too "liberal" for them.)

You have your reasons in voting yes. I love Scotland and I love England and the rest of the UK. They have distinctive yet completely intertwined identites. I'm sad to see them part ways (if the vote goes that way). But your country has the ability to self-determine it's destiny. I hope whatever happens, it is for the best.

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Response to Dorian Gray (Reply #16)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:44 AM

22. It's a momentous decision. I took years over arriving to where I am now.


In a sense I still don't want to leave, but staying is becoming an increasingly untenable position. Our political partners in the the union (by which I mean Westminster rather than England) is infested with screeching lunatics that hate poor people.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:45 AM

23. Well

it's wonderful that you have to opportunity to vote on this, and the world is watching.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:16 AM

56. "Screeching lunatics that hate poor people..."

Soounds like the Republican party here in the US.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:36 AM

18. Very cool, I hope YES prevails. Good luck. n/t

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Response to seaglass (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:41 AM

20. Thank you, seaglass.


We shall see, won't we?

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Response to seaglass (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:09 AM

28. I hope that No prevails.

I believe a yes vote would be bad for both sides of the border. Here south of the border we would lose 4 million left leaning voters, the though of a permanent conservative majority makes me shudder.
For those north of the border many things would be problematic. The British army is disproportionately Scottish, an independent Scotland would not be able to sustain the level of defense spending in Scotland. Jobs will move south, Scottish regiments will disband. English Welsh and Ulster regiments will re form (good news for my old regiment).
The British NHS is the biggest single healthcare provider in the world. Its existence was a factor in my decision to leave the USA. It is funded by all UK tax payers, the vast majority of whom live south of the border. I fear that the Scottish NHS Lite would be unable to provide the same level of service. There are many practical reasons for the union to be sustained.
I understand that this is a emotional issue. If you asked American southerners if they wanted to restore the confederacy, many would vote yes without considering the practical issues. If that question were ever asked of the US south I would hope that level heads would prevail.
Ultimately, the question of their participation in the union is an issue for the Scottish to make, as it should be. I trust that they will give it due consideration, I hope that they choose to stay, I hope that any of my descendants who choose a military career will get to walk with the Scottish boys in any future conflict. They do inspire a sense of confidence.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:18 AM

33. The Southern states of the US are not really comparable to nations

that are under British rule. Please see Reply 27.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:32 AM

38. Yes of course it is an issue for the Scottish to make, there are no consequences to me for my

opinion. I do think that the Scottish should focus on how it will affect them, not how it will effect others. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, very interesting.

And I personally would have no problem with the US South leaving the union peacefully.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:11 AM

48. I think southern states would very much consider the practical issues, and stay.

 

They know they get more back from the federal govt than they put in.

From my reading, it's my understanding that there are very practical reasons the Scots want to leave. They don't like paying to host the Trident submarines, and they don't like things like the 'bedroom tax' that was levied on them by Westminster. I'm pretty sure I read that Scotland pays more into the UK govt than it gets back.

Yes, Scotland leans more left than the UK. It has a different vision of what the future should be. It doesn't like where the Tories are taking the UK and want something much different for itself. A Yes vote will give them a chance to pursue it. If rUK doesn't want a permanent conservative majority, rUK can work to change that for themselves, no?

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 05:49 AM

24. Well, I guess if Lincoln had said to the South, "OK, have a referendum,

and if you folks vote to leave, fine, I'll accept that" that would have avoided the Civil War.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:14 AM

29. It was not up to him to say that. The Constitution was a compact among all

the colonies that ratified it. He didn't own the US, either personally or in his capacity as POTUS; and he had zero right to negotiate any of it away without the consent of all the states.

Too bad, in many ways.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:16 AM

32. Maybe not

Since South Carolina voted to secede in December of 1860 while Buchanan was still President
I think they chose then because Buchanan was such a do-nothing
When they talked about it under Jackson he said he'd hang the lot of em and that was the last you heard from John C Calhoun and his rabble

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:09 AM

27. Hi! Congrats on your opportunity to vote.

The secession situation is a bit different here because each of what are now our states opted to ratify the Constitution. Some sought statehood assiduously. By ratifying the Constitution, they more or less committed to "form a more perfect union," or to stick together. Texas is an exception and has some kind of contractual right to opt out.*

If it were not for that, I think a lot of red states might want to secede--and so would a lot of blue states. The divisiveness has gotten pretty extreme. And the blue states are financially subsidizing the red states to boot, while Republicans whine about how all Democrats just want hand outs. The irony is no longer amusing.

* Please see NuclearDem's correction re: Texas at Reply 49.

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Response to merrily (Reply #27)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:15 AM

49. Actually, the Texas secession clause is a myth.

 

That's a very popular misconception about the 1845 annexation. No state--Texas included--has the right to secede.

http://www.factcheck.org/2011/08/what-perry-really-said-about-secession/

Perry's comments suggest the deal was part of the Joint Resolution for Annexing Texas to the United States, which was approved March 1, 1845. But the document neither talks about nor conveys any such right to secede.

“That’s a myth and not based on any historical reality,” said Walter L. Buenger, a professor of history at Texas A&M University and author of the book “Secession and the Union in Texas,” in an interview with FactCheck.org.

And then there's the matter of the Civil War.

“Among scholars, the consensus is that the Civil War settled all these issues," Harvey Tucker, professor in the political science department at Texas A&M, told us. "Texas does not have the right to secede.”

Buenger also pointed to a Supreme Court case in 1869, Texas v. White, in which the court ruled that unilateral secession by any state was unconstitutional.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #49)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:32 AM

51. Good to know. I had read it somewhere before I ever heard Perry's name.

I would never have posted based on something Perry said, LOL. I watched the debates.

I probably should not have mentioned it since nothing I was saying really turned on it. I was trying not to leave anything out, I guess.

I am going to edit into my prior post a cross reference to your post I don't want to chance that someone might read my post, but miss your correction.

Thanks again.

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Response to merrily (Reply #51)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:34 AM

52. No problem!

 

I see that often enough to just keep the link handy.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #52)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:39 AM

54. The edited post preserves my error and your correction, so

that people reading this thread don't wonder what the heck we are talking about now.

Problem with that is, supposedly, people believe what they learn first and a correction supposedly only reinforces the original error even more. So, we may screw up everyone, LOL!

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #49)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 09:54 AM

130. Good point, but Lithuania had no "right" to secede from the Soviet Union, either

As I've said many times before, Texas works better as a state than as a republic, so I'm not in favor of secession.

Scotland, on the other hand, is facing a different set of circumstances. My wife was always proud of her Scottish heritage and her association with Clan Lindsey. The Highland bagpipes always brought a tear to her eye whenever they played Scotland the Brave. But I think she'd be torn over the vote - her head would say No, but her heart would say Yes to Scottish independence.

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Response to derby378 (Reply #130)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 10:05 AM

131. Well, they actually had more of a legal right to secede than Texas.

 

III.8.72 of the 1977 Soviet Constitution was a clause that explicitly gave the individual Republics the right to secede.

But still, it was the USSR...

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Response to merrily (Reply #27)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:28 AM

64. However, there are similarities: the Scottish Parliament voted to join the union

and, while it wasn't representative, there wasn't really a representative parliament anywhere in the world at the start of the 18th century. And while you say in #29 that a president can't negotiate away an agreement that all the states made, that is roughly what the UK is doing now - Scotland gets to decide if it secedes, while the rest of the UK doesn't get a vote.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #64)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:38 AM

65. Did it vote to join the union with a concomitant commitment not to "unjoin," though?

If not, I don't think it is similar at all And a separate nation is a separate nation, which is different. US states were never separate nations, always only a piece of a larger whole be it England or the US. (First American tribes were nations but they had a whole different approach to land.)

The Articles of Confederation (a couple of versions), which preceded our Constitution, was a looser arrangement than the Constitution.

We also have a huge country. If, say, the east coast states seceded, what would that mean for shipping goods produced a state or two inland? Would our army and Coast Guard still defend the coast? If not, wouldn't that leave everyone more vulnerable? Etc. Much more complicated.

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Response to merrily (Reply #65)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:57 AM

67. Since it gave up its parliament, there were no such things as referendums then, and the monarch

was already the joint monarch, yes, I'd say there was an effective commitment not to "unjoin". There was no mechanism left for Scotland to make a decision (unlike a US state which elects a governor, and has some form of state congress). The 21st century Scottish Parliament was created by Blair's government, elected by the UK as a whole.

Yes, secession would be complicated for some states, especially inland ones, but not for all of them. If some east coast states left, then inland states could ship goods south or north. You'd expect those states to inherit part of the military (as Scotland will, if it does vote for independence). And being a large country means some states would be larger than Scotland, and more viable as independent countries.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #67)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 12:16 PM

68. Giving up one's parliament is not a commitment never to separate.

From what you say, Scotland voted itself in and agreed to the nature of the relationship while it was in, that nature requiring Scotland to give up its Parliament. I don't see how agreeing to that is an agreement to remain in forever. I don't think you just imply that kind of never ending commitment.

It voted itself in with express agreement to remain in forever. Now, it may vote itself out again or it may vote to stay in. It doesn't need a governor to do that. Nothing is more representative of Scotland than a vote of its population.

I don't see an issue and I don't see a parallel between the nation of Scotland re-taking its independence (if it does) and some of our states seceeding over demands as to US territories that they had no right to make in the first place.

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Response to merrily (Reply #68)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 01:29 PM

74. Your post confuses me

You said "It voted itself in with express agreement to remain in forever. " That was what I was saying. That is equivalent to an American state.

"Nothing is more representative of Scotland than a vote of its population."

Yes, and in the 18th century, there was no concept of a vote of the population. They had representative government (with a highly restricted electorate, just as all parliaments did then), and no-one had heard of a 'referendum' (the first referendum in British history was in the 1970s, about staying in the EU). The government of Scotland voluntarily abolished itself, and merged with the rest of Great Britain. I'm not saying that the modern referendum is invalid; I'm saying that it was never thought of as a way to make a valid decision, when the union was made. So the union was seen as permanent.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #74)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 01:46 PM

76. So sorry. "no" was omitted inadvertently.

No express agreement to remain in forever and you don't just imply an eternal agreement.


So the union was seen as permanent.


Maybe; maybe not. What did Scotland actually do? It did not start with a referendum. It reconstituted its Parliament.

But I don't really want to get too far afield into this line because Scottish history is not my area and I will never learn enough to speak with any authority about it in time for this thread. The original issue was, is this like American states seceding from the "more perfect union" they had expresslye agreed to form once and forever. And, for the factual and contractual reasons I've stated, I don't think the two are comparable.

Then again, nothing really turns on whether they are comparable or not, except my reply to the OP. The comparison does not legitimize or de-legitimize what is going on now.

But, thank you for all the current and historical information you've so patiently given me. It's been a revelation and very interesting. Honestly, I don't know how you all study your history. I've always been glad ours started in the 1600s. Imagine Iraqis studying their history! I don't have that much room in my skull!

almost 3 here and I am off to forage the urban landscape for lunch.

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Response to merrily (Reply #76)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:03 PM

81. Oh, dear. I am not literally foraging, just going to a store to buy food.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:14 AM

30. I don't really see that the situation in Scotland is "bad enough", honestly

"stuck with Tory governments we didn't vote for" isn't all that different to Massachusetts or California being stuck with two terms of Bush, "unhappy about Labour going to the right" isn't all that different to how more liberal/left areas of the USA feel about the Democratic Party...and Salmond's platform for independence is full of holes; how this hypothetical future Scandinavian social democracy, Caledonian-style, is meant to be funded when North Sea oil peaked a decade ago and is in precipitous decline with revenues forecast to drop 38% by 2017 (and the resources of oil and gas to be completely played out by 2050), and when the mooted plans for tax and spending include cuts in corporation tax and no rise in income tax, while losing the excess funding allotted from Westminster under the Barnett formula...and when major financial-services (RBS, Lloyds, Standard Life) will be seriously considering relocating their base of operations from Scotland to England in the event of independence, thus eroding the tax base...and when an independent Scotland will be at the back of the queue for EU membership (and meanwhile probably locked out of the common market), and without a serious plan for currency ("we'll keep using the pound, and you can't stop us" isn't a serious plan)...it just doesn't really add up. The risks seem to outweigh whatever the benefits will be. (And I say this as someone who lives in Wales who isn't too keen on the Tories either.)

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:22 AM

34. States CANNOT secede in the US.

 

The American Civil War and Texas v. White 74 U.S. 700 (1869) decided that for all time.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:24 AM

35. I study regionalism and separatism. The Unionist are doing everything ...

... that will create long-term resentment between English and Scots. Cameron et al have thrown out every petty threat they can, stopping just short of denying Scots the right to breath British air. I have no special power to predict the outcome of the vote. However, the patterns I am familiar with show that what keeps a country together amidst escalating tensions is a neighboring foreign threat. That's unlikely to emerge in this scenario.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:27 AM

36. Since I live in the south

it would mean a complete loss of human rights if my area of the country were to secede.

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Response to get the red out (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:21 AM

58. It seems that the Republican governors are doing their...

...level best to bring that about even without seceding.

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Response to 3catwoman3 (Reply #58)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:42 AM

61. YES

We're lucky here in Kentucky to still have a Democratic Governor, but I'm scared of when his term ends. The last Republican Governor was a disaster to the state and the administration was very unethical. In other words, typical Republican.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:27 AM

37. Good luck to you and your fellow country people

If it is yes, it is going to be a long road to separate from the UK. Hopefully if Scotland becomes independent the country can remain in the EU.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:47 AM

41. I wish Scotland well, having Scots ancestors on both sides, whatever the outcome of the referendum

My state, Georgia, did secede once upon a time. Didn't work out very well. But Georgia was never its own nation, so the situation is quite different. I'd never vote for secession now, and if Georgia did secede, I'd most likely move to New York.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:57 AM

43. I hope the "yes" vote prevails...

I think if Scotland wants to be independent they should be allowed to. To keep a union together that has its roots in agnatic-cognatic primogeniture seems a poor reason to continue if the people no longer want to stay. And as another poster already said, the Scots shouldn't have to consider the feelings/desires/consequences for any other nation. Edited to add: this view is most definitely skewed by the fact that I majored in history (with an emphasis on British history) and not economics. I understand mine is an overly-simplist view but I am certain if the Scots win independence they will work out the details with typical enlightened realism.

And I think you're correct; Europeans are more used to nations breaking up. To compare maps of Europe from just from 1900-1999 (to take a 1,000 year picture is even more startling) is an exercise curios Americans should undertake. Not saying its "no big deal" but it doesn't usually rise to the level as in the United States in 1861.

If Scotland can regain its complete autonomy easier than the Irish did, I say go for it.

I'll be watching!! Good luck!

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:57 AM

44. No, we fought a civil war to settle that question. States aren't

the same as countries.If Scotland wants to go,more power to them but splitting into smaller and smaller countries (especially considering how small the UK is to begin with)t seems very inefficient.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:05 AM

46. Hi sibelian!

 

I've been thinking of you as the day approaches: hoping for a "yes" outcome and wishing you the best.

As for your question, I do not see the possibility of secession from the US, no matter how bad it gets (is). Our national identity is bound to our Constitution (however warped the interpretation) and in any case we are too intermingled across the country. How could the countryside secede from the cities? That, in my view, is where most of the political divisions lie.

So I fear my view is very pessimistic at this point: I don't think our system can be fixed--it is too large, designed not to be agile, and in the grip of a despotic minority. I wish you better luck with yours.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #46)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:49 AM

100. "How could the countryside secede from the cities?" - very interesting question, I had't thought of


that.

Yes I suppose the comparatively increased economic specialisation of these large areas would make seperation almost impossible.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #100)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 05:59 AM

114. Yes, I think so.

 

Republicans/conservatives are very fond of the county-by-county map that shows huge swaths of red overwhelming relatively small blue areas, thus "proving" the US is a conservative nation. In reality the red counties are almost always those with a low population and the blue ones are more densely populated. This is true in almost every state. Unwinding this to permit disaffected regions to secede would be impossible (and would deprive the rural areas of much material support that they don't realize they receive). So on a practical level I can't see it.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:17 AM

50. Hope the yes vote goes through.

 

That said, I can't ever view myself voting for my state to secede.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:39 AM

53. My state voted overwhelmingly for "independence" back in 1861

It didn't work out too well.

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #53)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:51 AM

102. I am ignorant.


Could you elaborate?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #102)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 01:40 AM

121. The Arkansas state legislature voted to secede from the Union in 1861

Only one member of the legislature voted against secession. So one could say, it was a vote for "independence" from the Union (i.e., United States). Arkansas, as a member of the new Confederate States of America, was officially out of the Union for 4 years. During that time, several battles were fought in the state between Union and Confederate forces, including the very bloody Battle of Pea Ridge (the site of which is now a National Military Park), but in the end Arkansas, and the rest of the Confederacy, were defeated.

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #121)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 12:03 PM

133. Well, that I did not know.


I wonder what Arkansas would be like now if things had gone differently...

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Response to sibelian (Reply #133)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 03:54 PM

140. I've often wondered that myself

The largest slave-holding areas in the state at the time were in the south and east; there were relatively few slaves in the Ozark Mountains in the north-west and north-central parts of the state, which, interestingly, were settled mainly by Scots-Irish and their descendants. I wonder if that part of the state would have broken away from the rest of the state and re-entered the Union eventually, like West Virginia did in 1863, if there had not been a war and the Confederate experiment was a failure in their eyes.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:43 AM

55. I hope a Yes vote will inspire other independence movements, around the world! nt

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:27 AM

59. As an American with strong emotional ties to Ireland

I hope it comes out a big YES, but as a practical person I worry about what that would mean, so I'm conflicted. (right now, the Irish part is cheering you on, tho! The emotional appeal is great)

My state is too central both physically and politically to leave the union and as a student of the American Civil War I'd hate to think we'll go down that road again. But there are a few red states that might deserve to go it on their own...

I'll be watching the vote and ordering a Scotch to toast y'all whatever the decision!

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:28 AM

60. US states are administrative divisions created by bureaucrats,

not countries with their own distinct cultures (Hawaii is an exception). The cultural differences and traditions among the states of the USA are trifling in comparison to those of European countries.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:13 AM

62. Best wishes to you, sibelian. I am rooting for you

to take back control of your land, and rid yourselves of British conservative interference in your government and your life. One side of my family is native Irish, with ancient roots in Connacht, who suffered horribly under the British Occupation. I don't know of anyone in Eire who is "pining for the Lords" and the queen since Ireland won independence in the early 1920's. I wish I could vote Yes with you.
Slainte!

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Response to Zorra (Reply #62)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 07:36 AM

118. Thank you, Zorra.


God bless!

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:27 AM

63. My state has already seceeded.

I live in Florida.

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Response to Baitball Blogger (Reply #63)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 08:29 AM

128. DUzy!



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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:47 AM

66. Best of luck to the people of Scotland!

 

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #66)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 07:36 AM

119. Cheers, YDC


We butt heads occasionally, you and I, but I will not forget your support....

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 12:23 PM

69. Groundskeeper Willie stands in solidarity with you

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #69)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:52 AM

104. LOL! yeah I saw that


I've known a few Groundskeeper Willies in my time... !

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 12:25 PM

70. I've gotta admit, the idea of living in Cascadia appeals to me

 

We'd have the northern west coast of the US (dividing line roughly the Cascade range, which we would get, of course) from San Francisco Bay up through the top of Washington state (and then maybe we could persuade British Columbia to join us ).

It's just a pipe dream, though.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #70)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 03:16 PM

138. Nice sounding nationality, too.


"Hi I'm Cascadian!" Sounds like it should have floating mountains and dragons

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Response to sibelian (Reply #138)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 05:05 PM

143. Exactly!

 

We could all wear capes!

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 12:31 PM

71. I would vote yes

I think the US is frankly, just to big. Washington is not easily reachable for most of the country. Someday I would love to see New England or the NE become its own country.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 12:32 PM

72. Sibelian, tell me how this can possibly work for Scotland?

I'm agreeing with Paul Krugman here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opinion/paul-krugman-scots-what-the-heck.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0

I'd be interested to know what you think about his argument?

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #72)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:27 PM

85. His argument rest on making a comparison between two economies


that suffered housing boom and bust, i.e. value from speculation. The independence movement in Scotland is deeply opposed to this kind of economic voodoo. They want to make used of Scotland's resources, not ride on the coat-tails of speculative money-wrangling. The dramatic cases of places like Spain and Florida are one of the reasons independence has become popular. However volatile oil and renewable energy become as marketable assets they are never going to be as volatile as a housing bubble.

He's not comparing like with like.

One might make a case from the observation that sterlingisation as opposed to a centralbank would require running a surplus, but there are many countries that do just that and do just fine. Scotland in fact already has a history of this financial process, and did it very well.

Needless to say, this isn't Salmond's position anyway, he wants a currency union. I don't think he'll get it. He's still claiming Westminster are bluffing when the insist it can't happen, but I think he may have been right about that earlier and isn't any more, whatever else happens Westminster have made far too much political hay out of insisting "no currency union" to be electable after backing down from that position. They've boxed themselves in, and Salmond with them.

In any case, I don't think we're looking at a clean game here, I don't believe either side are being honest regarding the economic picture post-independence. That doesn't matter to me as much as it does to some. It occurs to me that if we get independence we could very easily vote out the folk that aren't getting the best deal for us after they've let us down, just like every other democratic nation. If nothing else it's worth voting Yes just to have greater flexibility in economic policy, if we stick with Westminster we know what we're going to get - neoliberalism.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #85)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 06:42 PM

93. But what about his argument about the money you will use if you depart from the pound and

go to the Euro? I don't see you mention the Euro as an option but what exactly are you proposing?

I'd like to hear more about the alternatives for Scotland to Euro and English pound.

Thanks.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #93)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:47 AM

99. The only other realistic alternative is a Scottish pound.


That may well end up being what we get in the long run although I think it's a bad idea. The difficulty in establishing it is that we would need a central bank and would have to build up reserves, significantly limiting financial mobility for a long period and probably scuppering Salmond's plans for a more robust welfare state in the short term. It certainly has the advantage of being more secure in the long term but it doesn't really make sense, most of our trading is with England and Europe, vastly more with England than Europe. Unless our trading patterns change dramatically the Euro isn't as helpful and a Scottish pound would have the same problem.

Personally I'm a fan of currency union but I can see why England wouldn't want that. I'm not particularly proposing that we go for sterlingisation but I think that's now the only realistic option politically, which is shame. It's the best of a range of bad options. We'd be a bit like Panama... We'd have to be really careful with public spending. No vanity projects...

Currency union has drawbacks, including that the Bank of England would be underwriting our debt. rUK doesn't like this idea, which is fair...

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 12:47 PM

73. I want California, Oregon, and Washington to secede.

The conservatives would leave, and we could evolve a liberal society that was focused on making life better for human beings and all life on the planet, instead of making profit for greedy billionaire ownership.

If the liberals in any of those states managed to bring a serious vote for secession into being I would move there in a heartbeat, just to be able to vote for independence, so I could be a part of a society that had real possibilities for rapid growth in evolving human potential in a sane, humane, and kind environment, focused on democratically improving the lives of the overwhelming majority of its citizens.

Economically, we would have lots of farmland, great diverse environment for practical alternative energy systems. We'd have three borders, the US, Canada, and Mexico, and a vast coastline.

Most of all, we would have very real potential, and hope, for a shiny new wonderful future for all our citizens.

Not the kind of Reaganesque "sunny optimism" bullshit type false hope put forth by politicians serving the greed and power needs of oligarchs.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #73)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:00 PM

80. Throw Hawai'i and maybe Alaska in there

 

Yeah, yeah, the Brawlin' Palins are up there, but it fits bioregionally.

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #80)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:25 PM

94. Hawaii works for me, AK is would be great, but I don't think they'd go for it. nt

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Response to Zorra (Reply #94)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:47 PM

98. Well, they do have an Alaskan Independence Party.

 

The First Dude was in it, remember?

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #98)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:57 AM

105. Wow, do they?


Well, well. I did not know that.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #73)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:17 PM

83. How about, California, Oregon, Washington, and, British Columbia?

 

I could try and fit "Eh?" into my speech patterns and pretend to like ice-hockey.

I was born in California, lived in Oregon, now live in Washington. And, I've visited B.C. and loved it.

Count me in.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #83)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:28 PM

95. Left Coast if the best coast. BC works for me!

I grew up in WA, east of the Cascades. I love WA, but now live in AZ because of the warmer weather.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 01:54 PM

77. I'd vote for Oregon to secede tomorrow if it came up.

 

The best government is that least removed from the people.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:23 PM

84. Hope yes wins, good luck ! nt

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:36 PM

86. I'd vote for California independence in a heartbeat

 

I'd love to live in a country that doesn't include the south. I know there are lots of good people in the southern states, but the reps they send to Congress stymie all good ideas, and the rest of us all have to live with the results.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:40 PM

87. Best wishes to Scotland, no matter which way.

If it fails, I hope this gives Westminster and Downing Street the kick in the pants to give NI, Scotland and Wales the autonomy they want. If it succeeds, congratulations and wow, you have a lot of work ahead.

I live in Colorado, so succession would be a regional issue, not a state one. I think the conditions required for me to vote for succession would be to create a stronger regional autonomy, with stricter corporate controls (this region exists as states because of the railroads and mines; we have cultural memory of abusive corporations), a more long-range regional/federal government (because given that the west is dry, environmental recovery takes much, much longer than in wetter regions, so the 4-8 year election cycle is devastating for environmental projects) and a massive rework of water and mineral rights and responsibilities. But also given that we are the far eastern edge of the West, if the West seceded, we would be the likely battle ground, and that would definitely color my decision.

That doesn't mean I'd object if other states decided to secede, and I would certainly open my spare room to those who needed to escape.

We have/had several counties who wanted to secede and form their own state. They went down screaming. If they were the ones leading the secession charge, I'd fight against it and if they won, I'd leave. I do not want to live in Guns, Gawd and Frackistsan.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:48 PM

88. I would never. Nt.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 03:51 PM

91. I'm all

for Scotland to become the country it wants to be. If "yes" wins, it will be a huge challenge but an exciting time to be there.

------
As for America--we don't have nearly the cohesion as a country that Scotland does.

We're more likely to have a civil war within--in fact we are in a cold civil war right now.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #91)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:50 AM

101. It's kinda freaky.


My facebook page lights up every day with more people saying yes.

It's not going to be easy...

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:14 PM

92. He grants you all your wishes

Good luck, but remember the old saying.

When God wants to punish you, he grants you all your wishes. Independence could be a bit of a problem for you all. The US enjoys much of what it enjoys because of its union. I'm not sure greater division is what the world needs right now.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #92)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:35 AM

107. We think we're probably an anomaly.


If it weren't for the oil reserves and renewables on top of the separate legal education and health systems I'm not sure I'd be voting yes. I was no for a long time.

Your observation about division certainly isn't without merit and yes, independence is going to bring challenges, but one of the most extraordinary things that's come of all this is the civic re-engagement of the Scots. I can't see that going away and I see it as an unambiguously, amazingly positive thing. There's this sense of "bring it on!" It's been a long time since any of us have felt like that.

Social barriers are melting. Strangers are talking to each other in the street. New friendships are being struck up in pubs...

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:35 PM

96. Self determination...

.... is pretty much always better than being tied to a bunch of tory idiots. I hope the Scots vote yes. And while I'm at it, I think the over-the-top scaremongering of the no camp might well be the reason they lose. Nobody likes to be threatened and held hostage, especially the Scottish.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:37 PM

97. I live in Texas...we have morans by the dozen here that bray about seceding from the US.

 

Most of them could not find Scotland on a map...even with BIG hints.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:52 AM

103. Not comparable to the US

This is the DU member formerly known as still_one.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:09 AM

106. If by some freak occurance Republicans controled the federal government entirely again

and then got everything passed that they wanted and then proceeded to trample states rights. I would vote to be out in a heartbeat.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:41 AM

108. Good for you, I hope you are all successful!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #108)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 07:52 AM

125. Thanks sabrina!


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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 03:19 AM

109. apples and oranges

with all due respect.

I realize that many in the North and South do not think of themselves as having a common heritage. Well, the truth is, we do, and even in states like Louisiana and Hawaii, which had non Anglo-Saxon origins, the culture is still America.

Scotland, however, never wanted to be England, and still does not, and unlike America, has sveral thousand years of history to back up being different.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #109)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 03:24 AM

110. yes, that's the thing about the US . even if the South and Northeast may consider themselves

as having different cultures, views, etc. they still consider it as being part of an American Culture .

liberal hollywood movies is american, southern religious evangelicals are american, mormons are american etc

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #109)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 03:31 AM

111. Yes...


Strong points. Scotland's always been careful to maintain her own identity...

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Response to sibelian (Reply #111)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 03:34 AM

112. it goes beyond that

The scots can work within England. It's funny that Dr. Who is a cultural icon of England, but that many of the actors that play him are Scots, including the current one. I am just talking about centuries, even Millennia of time where Scotland thought of itself as separate, time long before Rob Roy.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #109)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 11:45 AM

120. Right. Scotland's history--

much longer than ours --makes this question of common heritage very different.

Of course we got out of our arrangement with the British pretty quick... No harm meant--to anybody reading this from England. I love England.

My Dad's family was all English from way back. My Mom's family was all Scottish from way back.

I am with Scotland's right to decide, however.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 04:17 AM

113. Good for you! Bravo! Go Scotland!

My American heart encourages you in this endeavor!

I see it as not a negative thing regarding the UK, but a positive time for Scotland to strike out on her own.

Also, Good Lord, thank the heavens above that my state (Texas) can never secede (contrary to local opinion)!
I'm an American citizen, the union first & always (Rick Perry can shut it).

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 07:23 AM

115. Enjoy David Cameron's reelection and the permanent Tory majority

Because that's what's going happen.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #115)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 07:34 AM

116. Well, if a permanent Tory majority results from Scottish independence


It won't have any effect on ME, will it? In any case, it's a myth, there have only been two UK elections since the 60s that required the Scots to gain a Labour government. In all the others Labour had a majority in England as well.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #115)

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 07:35 AM

117. Also - Cameron re-elected?


Not only tee but also hee.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 02:40 AM

122. Hi sibelian.

How are things going? Have you voted yet? How were the polling places? Crowded? Good luck to you!

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #122)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 07:51 AM

124. Going out to vote just now!


Had two sheepish looking Yes folk at my front door this morning coming round to remind me to vote. I caught their eye through the window and waved. We all laughed.

"Hi..." they said. "Just coming round to remind you..."

Me: "WHAT? Is something going to happen? Is there a vote on something?"

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Response to sibelian (Reply #124)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 08:14 AM

126. ha ha-- good luck today



We are watching...

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 08:15 AM

127. I wish Scotland the

very best-no matter what the majority decides!

Good Luck Scotland!

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 09:37 AM

129. Pardon my ignorance, but, are there plans in place to protect the nuclear arsenal?

I've tracked global terror issues since the early 80s, and it's not hard to imagine that terror groups would target your nukes for easy picking.

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Response to blm (Reply #129)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 12:01 PM

132. The SNP want rid of them altogether.


They want them to go to rUK. Their position is that such weapons are "an affront to basic decency".

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Response to sibelian (Reply #132)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 01:04 PM

134. I wonder where UK will move them.

.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 01:45 PM

135. If the situation in my state became that bad

I'd just find a new place to live...A secession vote would almost certainly be the least of my worries...

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 01:51 PM

136. Watching closely and hoping for a Yes.

I watched the recent debate and was fascinated by how much it echoed US politics...except that the debate was less controlled and scripted, and Scottish citizens were directly calling out (and anticipating/warning about future) Westminster neoliberal nonsense.

Love to you and Scotland.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #136)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 03:21 PM

139. Thanks woo.


That;s very interesting to me as I see the scripting here as really intense. The Daily Mail has been absolutely appalling, and the Telegraph only marginally better.

We're VERY left here in haggisland, also we're not shy about saying what we think.

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Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Sep 18, 2014, 03:56 PM

141. good for you. (said it a cheery voice, not in snark) nt

 

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