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Sat Sep 13, 2014, 12:40 PM

Anti-vax asshat RFK Jr. on Dr. Oz, promoting his anti-vax asshat book...

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/09/12/has-dr-oz-become-antivaccine/

Take a look at the thimerosal segment on yesterday’s The Dr. Oz Show, and you’ll quickly see what I mean:

The Truth About Thimerosal, Part 1
The Truth About Thimerosal, Part 2

Dr. Oz had as guests on his show antivaccine loon Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and his partner in crime against vaccine science, “functional medicine” expert Dr. Robert Hyman, on his show in a credulous segment about the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal that buys into virtually every trope about mercury in vaccines promulgated by the antivaccine movement. The reason, of course, is because Kennedy and Hyman have a book out. It’s a book entitled Thimerosal: Let the Science Speak: Mercury Toxicity in Vaccines and the Political, Regulatory, and Media Failures That Continue to Threaten Public Health that I’ve discussed before in which, as I put it, Kennedy parties about thimerosal like it’s 1999.

snip

Oz then went on to observe that vaccines have come “under a lot of fire in the medical community.” It was at this point that I wanted to reach through the screen and strangle Dr. Oz, its taking a major effort of will not to do so. (Such blatant stupidity has that effect on me, particularly dangerous antivaccine stupidity such as what Dr. Oz had just regurgitated to millions of viewers. Fortunately, I am not a violent person, but I’m sure anyone who’s pro-science will understand the momentary urge.) No, no, no, no! Vaccines have NOT come under a lot of fire from the medical community. The medical community is virtually universally supportive of vaccines. Rather, vaccines have come under fire from a number of misguided activists who mistakenly think, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, that vaccines cause autism. They’ve also come “under fire” from quackery supporters like RFK, Jr., and, yes, Mark Hyman. In any case, in order to “clear the air,” Oz went on to ask Hyman and RFK whether they are antivaccine. I almost laughed when RFK said that he’s “fiercely pro-vaccine,” which, given the level of sheer pseudoscience, conspiracy mongering, and stupidity that he’s laid down over the last nine years on the topic, has to be either a lie or the most amazing case of self-delusion I’ve seen in a very long time or an outright lie. Hyman chimed in, assuring that he, too, is pro-vaccine, which is nonsense. If you’ve collaborated with a book with the likes of RFK, Jr. that lays down scads of pseudoscience, conspiracy mongering, and misinformation about vaccines, you’ve lost your right to call yourself pro-vaccine, or at least you’ve lost any expectation that people won’t laugh in your face when you do something as risible as claiming that you are not antivaccine.

Next followed a brief video about the history of the use of thimerosal in vaccines, which noted that thimerosal came to be suspected of causing autism in the 1990s. In fairness, the segment stated that the link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism has been discredited, but that was buried under sensationalistic fear mongering, with alarming images, the observation that the government got rid of thimerosal in vaccines because, “Better safe than sorry,” and the conspicuous notation that thimerosal is gone from childhood vaccines with the “glaring exception” of some flu vaccines, not to mention the claim that the EPA considers medical products containing thimerosal to be “hazardous waste,” decorated, naturally, a big picture of a biohazard symbol in the background. At one point, he displayed an Erlenmeyer flask full of what looked like liquid mercury, swirling the liquid metal, and then added the “mercury” into a beaker of water meant to represent a multi-use vial of vaccines to demonstrate how “mercury” is added to vaccines to prevent bacterial overgrowth that can occur as a result of bacterial seeding that can result from entering the vial with more than one needle. It’s one of the dumber visual demonstrations I’ve seen on The Dr. Oz Show, and that’s saying a lot. Thimerosal is not metallic mercury. One would think that Oz might have picked up a bit of organic chemistry in his premed courses or in medical school.


Much more excellent exposure of how a once great environmentalist has fallen into dumbass woo at the link.

Sid

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Reply Anti-vax asshat RFK Jr. on Dr. Oz, promoting his anti-vax asshat book... (Original post)
SidDithers Sep 2014 OP
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proverbialwisdom Sep 2014 #69
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Voice for Peace Sep 2014 #90
Dr Hobbitstein Sep 2014 #91
Voice for Peace Sep 2014 #89
beam me up scottie Sep 2014 #98
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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 12:43 PM

1. du rec.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 04:09 PM

69. Daughter of PBS journalist Robert MacNeil and mother of a child with autism (can't shut her up/down)

alison macneil @nicksmummie · Sep 12
Dr. Oz Show: Thimerosal in Flu Shots - What He Got Wrong & What You NEED to Know! http://vaxtruth.org/2014/09/dr-oz-show-thimerosal-in-flu-shots-what-he-got-wrong-what-you-need-to-know/ … #vaccinesNOVA #CDCwhistleblower


https://twitter.com/nicksmummie
PHOTOS

BTW, I expect a hide for this post. I know nothing about the site she links to and have never read anything there, but I can guess it's on some 'list' even if the links it suggests are factual.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #69)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:46 PM

82. I would self-delete....

 

That site (and the article you linked to) has more woo than the episode of Dr Oz being discussed.

No facts, no science. Just woo.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #82)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:06 PM

90. do you know if this is accurate?

 

from the link:

Contrary to the assertions of Oz, Hyman, and Kennedy, thimerosal has not been removed from childhood vaccinations; it’s still there. The FDA changed the rules so vaccine manufacturers do not have to include thimerosal on the label as an ingredient unless it is used as a preservative. According to the FDA, if thimerosal is used in the manufacturing process but it is not used as a preservative, the vaccine can be labeled “thimerosal-free” when that is not the case.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #90)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:09 PM

91. That is not accurate.

 

Nothing on that site is accurate. It is a whack-job anti-vaxxer site.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #69)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:05 PM

89. from the link

 

Contrary to the assertions of Oz, Hyman, and Kennedy, thimerosal has not been removed from childhood vaccinations; it’s still there. The FDA changed the rules so vaccine manufacturers do not have to include thimerosal on the label as an ingredient unless it is used as a preservative. According to the FDA, if thimerosal is used in the manufacturing process but it is not used as a preservative, the vaccine can be labeled “thimerosal-free” when that is not the case.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #89)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:48 PM

98. You've posted that excerpt twice, do you know if it's accurate?

Are you willing to risk the lives of children by posting unfounded hysteria that's copied and pasted en masse from anti-vaccination websites?

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #98)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:54 PM

112. The article links to this CDC webpage, please read it. It's factual, nothing objectionable there.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

Thimerosal and 2014-2015 Seasonal Flu Vaccines
Questions & Answers

Another link (I don't know the term, personally):


Here's the kicker. These parents/readers also have listened to audio by CDC whistleblower, Dr. William W. Thompson, on tics (one of his research topics). Perhaps their child suffers from tics. They're not wrong to demand reform, IMO, and most importantly in the opinions of CDC scientist, Dr. William W. Thompson, and others.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #112)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 08:09 PM

113. Spare me.

I am a proud and scarred veteran of the original DU anti-vaxx wars.

I cannot take you seriously when you regurgitate endless streams of anti-science talking points from discredited sources.

Vaccines do not cause autism.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #113)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 08:39 PM

117. A fun site-search is that poster's name and "Wakefield"...

They once seriously put forward Andrew Wakefield, as the answer to the question "Who will be the Carl Sagan of this generation?".



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #117)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 08:49 PM

120. You can't be serious.

My German Shepard Maggie is more like Carl Sagan than that criminal.

Hell the thing that recently died under my house (not a euphemism) is a better choice.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #120)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 08:57 PM

121. That's some crazy shit, eh?...

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #121)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:10 PM

125. So Wakefield is the victim of the story?

And why are people discussing this issue like it's a matter of opinion?

Stop the planet.

I want to throw some people off.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #125)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:21 PM

130. Wait awhile and see what happens.

You might've missed this text exchange between Dr. Andrew Wakefield and Dr. William W. Thompson, Aug 27, 2014.

[center][/center]

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #130)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:43 PM

131. Your continued support of a criminal and his agenda on DU is sickening.

From the NYT

British Medical Council Bars Doctor Who Linked Vaccine With Autism

A doctor whose research and public statements caused widespread alarm that a common childhood vaccine could cause autism was banned on Monday from practicing medicine in his native Britain for ethical lapses, including conducting invasive medical procedures on children that they did not need.

The General Medical Council applied its most severe sanction against the doctor, Andrew Wakefield, 53, who abandoned his medical practice in Britain in 2004 as questions intensified about his research and set up a center to study childhood developmental disorders in Texas, despite not being licensed as a physician there.

In January, after the longest investigation in its history, the council found several instances of what it said was unprofessional conduct by Dr. Wakefield. It cited his taking blood samples for his study from children at his son’s birthday party; he paid each child £5, about $7.20 today, and joked about it later. It also noted that part of the costs of Dr. Wakefield’s research was paid by lawyers for parents seeking to sue vaccine makers for damages.


He is directly responsible for the deaths of children who weren't immunized and should be rotting in prison along with anyone who pushes his propaganda.

One of your ilk had this to say about him :

"To our community, Andrew Wakefield is Nelson Mandela and Jesus Christ rolled up into one,"


More like the Reverend Jim Jones and his fanatic followers.


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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #131)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:36 PM

172. Not up-to-date? No wonder, blame in-the-weeds material plus media's failure to inform the public.

Last edited Sun Sep 14, 2014, 09:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Members only.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #130)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 11:09 PM

144. Oh for the love of...

 



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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #98)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:56 PM

133. no, I asked somebody if it were accurate. Heavens to mergatroid on the hyperbole.

 

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #133)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:11 PM

135. Vaccines don't cause autism.

Even if you don't trust the FDA.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #135)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 04:04 AM

161. Quote from RFK reviewer:

 

Here is RFK being quoted at link posted


"Robert F. Kennedy Jr. told me that the book he commissioned has a chapter “we were going to leave out, because it’s so controversial, but the evidence is so strong that thimerosal causes autism,” that he’s keeping it in.

Yet in the next breath he said he wasn’t going to publish the book (even though it has a publisher and is going through edits right now) because it is so explosive that he doesn’t want it to prompt a mass panic: “I don’t want parents to stop vaccinating their kids.” (“I’m pro-vaccine,” he insisted several times during the call.)

http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/robert_kennedy_jr_vaccines_aut.php?page=all

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Response to xchrom (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:35 AM

185. Fracking is also dangerous to the health of millions. Why won't any of you that

 

seem so excited about health post in threads re. fracking?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112774847

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 12:50 PM

2. The "RFK Jr can do no wrong" phanbois in 3-2-1...

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Response to Archae (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 12:58 PM

5. And they'll claim RFK Jr. is a "great Democrat"!!...

as if that has anything to do with his anti-science, anti-vax, asshattery.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:18 PM

10. What kind of Democrat does that make you, SidDithers of DU?

Must be something being you.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:33 PM

17. Sid's someone who realizes that having full on nuttery

associated with progressive issues is a double loser. Asshole anti-vaxxers get MORE credibility to mess more lives and progressives get associated with nutty anti vaccination anti science evil.

I 'don't care if he does have the 'Kennedy' name, this anti fax shit is as evil as anything any teatard stands for or wants to implement.

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Response to The Green Manalishi (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:57 PM

25. Who's the asshole?

Someone who asks questions or someone who labels people who ask questions?

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Response to Octafish (Reply #25)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:01 PM

29. The asshole

 

is the person that believes vaccines are dangerous. End of story.

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Response to AnalystInParadise (Reply #29)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:04 PM

31. Right.

What about the assholes who believe mercury isn't dangerous? That includes BP and the GOP of Indiana.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:14 PM

34. That would be completely different assholes.

 

It's not a zero sum game, there are multiple kinds of assholes.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:40 PM

43. Wow, you really oversimplified the hell out of that.

 

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Response to Octafish (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:10 PM

51. You're exposed to far, far more mercury....

...from eating the occasional tuna sandwich. Where's the outrage about tuna? Is ole RFK on that one too?

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Response to Octafish (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 04:52 PM

73. Chlorine is a seriously poisonous gas.

In fact it was used as a weapon to kill soldiers in WW1, and more recently to kill soldiers and civilians in Syria.

BUT...

It's in a product we use every day, sodium chloride. Table salt.

Mercury as it is, pure, is poisonous.

BUT...

Mercury in many compounds is commonly used with no harmful effects.

Vaccine alarmists like RFK Jr, Jenny McCarthy, and other "Vaccines cause autism" hysterics have blood on their hands, spreading their propaganda that has *NO* evidence to back it up.

My own family have received vaccines from the 40's until today.
2 adults.
5 kids.
7 grandchildren.
7 great-grandchildren.
*NONE* of them have autism.

Not one.

Now go back to your John F. Kennedy conspiracy theories that have likewise nothing to them, and make sure your tinfoil hat is on snug.

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Response to Archae (Reply #73)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:02 PM

74. !!!!!!

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Response to Archae (Reply #73)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:52 PM

88. FATALITY

 

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Response to Archae (Reply #73)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:09 PM

124. Beware the dihydrogen monoxide, though.

 

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Response to AnalystInParadise (Reply #29)


Response to AnalystInParadise (Reply #29)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:15 PM

126. Wonder if it was Library Girl...

I didn't see the response to you before MIRT got 'em.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #126)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:22 PM

138. Damn

 

I missed that one

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #126)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 10:59 AM

165. Who else?

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Response to Octafish (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 02:54 AM

152. Depends on the question. I would put people who still press the question of whether vaccines cause

autism pretty much in the same category as those who still press the question of whether President Obama was born in Kenya.

There is strong evidence that vaccines do not influence the incidence of autism; and much of it does not come from anywhere influenced by the American FDA, etc. The largest-scale study was done in Japan.

And among those who do press the 'vaccines 'n autism' theory, there is little consistency about what is involved. Wakefield and Kennedy are actually saying totally different things. Kennedy is blaming thimerasol. Wakefield is blaming the MMR vaccine itself - which never contained thimerasol, at least in the UK, where Wakefield was based until he had to save his career by moving to the more profit-driven, less regulated medical environment of Texas.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:09 AM

153. You know who else "Just asks questions"?

Climate change deniers and Holocaust deniers. Asking questions is one thing, but putting your finger in your ears and rejecting any answers that don't fit your preconceived scenario is just foolish ignorance, which is compounded when you try to present it as free-thinking iconoclasm.

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Response to cemaphonic (Reply #153)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 09:51 PM

180. Climate change deniers, Holocaust deniers, Birthers, people who believe ACORN stole the elections...

 

..for Obama, 9/11 Troofers, Gold-bug Libertarians, Moon landing hoax believers....

Woo comes in many shapes and sizes, but at the end of the day it is still woo.

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Response to The Green Manalishi (Reply #17)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 09:49 PM

179. Don't bother

 

Some people around here honestly believe that the United States "lost its innocence" all on November 22, 1963, and has from then on been dominated by a sinister cabal of conspiratorial forces known as "the BFEE" or "the MIC" or "the Corporatist Fascist Warmongers."

Not only is this incredibly over-simplified, anti-intellectual,and anti-historical, and not only is it based on the "Camelot" fairy tale of the Kennedys (which, as all fairy tales are, was more myth and unmet idealizations than reality), but it is also represents the projection of filtered, edited memories of the Post-WWII era. The generational bias is really transparent here.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:18 PM

93. Because Sid, You Have Violated One Of The Unwritten Rules

You must NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, criticize anything done or said by anyone of the HOLY KENNEDY FAMILY!

Bobbers junior is an asshat.

Wolf

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Response to Archae (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:23 PM

14. That site has a great review of "Dr" Oz....

Apparently, "Dr" Oz's opinions are independent of proper lab work:

Letter from FDA to The Dr. Oz Show Regarding Apple Juice and Arsenic (09/09/2011)

September 9, 2011

Ms. Barbara Simon
Producer, The Dr. Oz Show

Mr. Terence Noonan
Supervising Producer, The Dr. Oz Show

VIA EMAIL and FAX

Ms. Simon:

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is aware that EMSL Analytical, Inc. has obtained and tested 50 samples of retail apple juice for total arsenic content on behalf of Zoco Productions. It is our understanding that, based on these test results, you will assert during an upcoming episode of The Dr. Oz Show that apple juice is unsafe because of the amounts of total arsenic found in the samples.

We appreciate that you have made the results of these tests available to us. As we have previously advised you, the results from total arsenic tests CANNOT be used to determine whether a food is unsafe because of its arsenic content. We have explained to you that arsenic occurs naturally in many foods in both inorganic and organic forms and that only the inorganic forms of arsenic are toxic, depending on the amount. We have advised you that the test for total arsenic DOES NOT distinguish inorganic arsenic from organic arsenic.

The FDA has been aware of the potential for elevated levels of arsenic in fruit juices for many years and has been testing fruit juices for arsenic and other elemental contaminants as part of FDA’s toxic elements in foods program. The FDA typically tests juice samples for total arsenic first, because this test is rapid, accurate and cost effective. When total arsenic testing shows that a fruit juice sample has total arsenic in an amount greater than 23 parts per billion (ppb), we re-test the sample for its inorganic arsenic content. The vast majority of samples we have tested for total arsenic have less than 23 ppb. We consider the test results for inorganic arsenic on a case-by-case basis and take regulatory action as appropriate.

...

The FDA believes that it would be irresponsible and misleading for The Dr. Oz Show to suggest that apple juice contains unsafe amounts of arsenic based solely on tests for total arsenic. Should The Dr. Oz Show choose to suggest that apple juice is unsafe because of the amounts of total arsenic found by EMSL Analytical, Inc.’s testing, the FDA will post this letter on its website.

...

http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm271630.htm


Amazing....

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Response to xocet (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:27 PM

15. I'd never seen that...

thanks for posting.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #15)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:43 PM

22. No problem. I hadn't seen it either until I followed Archae's link and looked around at some of...

...the supporting links there.

Who ignores a letter from the FDA that says one's analysis and presentation are incorrect??

I had to post that.

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Response to xocet (Reply #22)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:41 PM

44. Who ignores the effects of BPA and other cumulative toxins in food and other products?

 

Why, it's the FDA.
They wrote us a letter to say this stuff was safe, but we all got cancer anyway.

http://www.thealternativedaily.com/2-of-the-most-toxic-fda-approved-poisons/

Gosh even Fox News

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #44)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:54 PM

66. Thanks.

Been concerned about this, and now that I have 2 infant grandsons, I'm more concerned than ever.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #44)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:50 PM

85. Agenda 21?

 

Isn't that a non-binding UN resolution that has tin-foil hat wearing right wingers all in a twist?

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #44)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:14 PM

136. Your post is a great way to defeat argument by authority. However, the letter's content is not...

based on a fallacy. The letter cites "Dr." Oz's faulty interpretation and subsequent intended misrepresentation of laboratory work - such a letter could have been sent to Dr. Oz's program by a 7th grader from Anywhere, USA, and it would be just as valid of an admonishment as the letter sent by the FDA.

If you don't subscribe to science, it is ok that you protest on that basis - you just need to be clear that that is what your protest is based on.

So, do you think science is a valid approach to understanding the world? If you do subscribe to science, please specifically state your objection to the scientific content of the letter. Please show me why it is incorrect, and why "Dr." Oz's position is correct. You have nothing to lose by carefully illustrating your case and a world of allies to gain....

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Response to xocet (Reply #136)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:49 PM

142. not here to debate your point of view, or defend Dr. Oz, who has always given me the creeps

 

but I don't watch him. Yes indeedy I come from a long
line of scientists of every persuasion. My post wasn't
intended to disprove anything; only your point about the
FDA struck me as peculiar since I don't trust them. I'm
sorry I didn't investigate thoroughly what all this is about
before adding in my point of view.

But too many so called science afficianados do not recognize
that much of what was once considered science has been
disproven; that there is much not yet studied, and therefore
not yet proven, which doesn't mean it's not true; that the
instruments of science are still very limited, and so on.

Also, this is my personal belief: a real lover of science
doesn't throw insults at those less educated, or engage
in one upmanship. * Rather, a real lover of science will want,
from the depths of his or her heart, to share that wonder,
to help others understand our amazing universe.

There is so much beauty, and wonder, fascination and
adventure in the world of science. Of course this has not
been proven, and is only my subjective point of view.

* edit to add this behavior is not meant to be ascribed to
you.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #142)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 02:42 AM

150. Thank you for your kind elaboration. I appreciate your reply. n/t

Last edited Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:57 AM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Archae (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:51 PM

24. And right on schedule...

 

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 12:56 PM

3. Please keep this asshat away from liberal issues

 

Everything he advocates for will be tainted by association.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 12:58 PM

4. K&R

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:00 PM

6. unrec.

 

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:14 PM

7. This is why the static Oz got from Congress was well deserved. What makes this even more of a white

wash is the if Oz had any credibility, he would have had a representative from the other side on there

Oz, who WAS a talented physician, has now become another snake oil sales person.

It is an interesting note that Dr. Oz's wife is an anti-vaxer, and makes me wonder if he has also jumped the shark

The crap, and some of the guests he has on have probably hurt a lot of people.

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Response to still_one (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:19 PM

12. Absolutely.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:15 PM

8. RFK is not a Democrat

The science denying trope is killing our environment, causing eradicated disease to infect children. WTF was Oz thinking? He's no longer credible IMO.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:07 PM

50. actually the anti-vaxers crosses party lines

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Response to still_one (Reply #50)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:13 PM

54. Granted...

stupid knows no party boundaries.

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Response to paleotn (Reply #54)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:45 PM

62. I prefer the word ignorant

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Response to still_one (Reply #62)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:51 PM

86. Willfully ignorant...

 

It takes a LOT of willpower to be ignorant of the science surrounding what he rails against.

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Response to still_one (Reply #62)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:25 PM

107. That kind of stupidity is bringing back

Serious illness that kills people. These diseases were irradiated. It's not fair for some dumb ass to sicken healthily children it's the height of thoughtlessness and selfishness. They shouldn't get to put others in jeopardy.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #107)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 04:00 AM

159. Your hyperactive autocorrect changed "eradicated" to "irradiated" in

your post. I turned my autocorrect off because it kept turning my posts into gibberish like that!

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Response to still_one (Reply #50)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:21 PM

106. If you deny science you are not a democrat.

You're in line with people who deny climate change.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #106)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 11:36 PM

146. i wish you were right, but you are wrong. posts on DU have reflected such views

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Response to still_one (Reply #146)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 12:42 AM

148. You're entitled to your opinion

As am I. If you deny science you play for the other team.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #106)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 10:06 PM

183. You're certainly not a progressive if you outright deny science

 

Skeptical? Sure. Demanding lots of evidence from a variety of sources? Absolutely. Engaging in critical thinking about your own beliefs, and doing this even when you think you have got something right (or rather, especially if you think you have got something right!) Totally.

I don't see the anti-vax crowd doing this. I see a lot of dogmatism, irrationality, logical fallacies, and the all-too-common mistake of making hasty generalizations from their ancedotal experience, rather than looking at the body of knowledge and the evidence as impartially as they can.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #183)

Mon Sep 15, 2014, 12:23 AM

184. Agree!!!

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #183)

Mon Sep 15, 2014, 02:48 AM

186. Please review post 63. Of course, some would rather go blind than see but I hope you're smarter.


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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:18 PM

92. I agree that not all Democrats are the same. There are good Democrats and

 

bad Democrats. I place all the Democrats that jumped over party lines to vote to authorize George Bush to invade Iraq in the bad Democrats group. I hope you agree.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #92)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:23 PM

95. Mhm.

 

And RFK Jr is an anti-vax asshat.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #92)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:27 PM

108. Yes, I agree to a point.

But to deny science. We aren't the party to deny science. It's absurd

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:16 PM

9. K & R

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:18 PM

11. Let's see how you respond, Oz, to a few cases of Polio...

And then explain that to the unvaccinated child.

"Well, at least you're not Autistic!"

He's a phony.

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #11)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 03:17 PM

229. If There Were A Vaccine For Ebola

 

I wonder what his position would be.

As a polio survivor this make me very angry. I wonder if he thinks his battle with spasmodic dysphonia was caused by a flu vaccine or other vaccines and that's what drives him.

I would have rather have had the vaccine vs polio.

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #13)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:32 PM

16. I agree...

Kennedy also called Dr. Paul Offit, a "biostitute", which he pronounces like "prostitute".

From Offit's wiki:

Paul A. Offit is an American pediatrician specializing in infectious diseases and an expert on vaccines, immunology, and virology. He is the co-inventor of a rotavirus vaccine that has been credited with saving hundreds of lives every day. Offit is the Maurice R. Hilleman Professor of Vaccinology, Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania, Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases, and the Director of the Vaccine Education Center at The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. He has been a member of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices.[3] Offit is a Board Member of Every Child By Two[4] and a Founding Board Member of the Autism Science Foundation (ASF).[5]


But Kennedy think's he's a biostitute.



Sid

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 12:01 PM

167. His grandfather would be VERY proud

 

After all Joe Kennedy had his own daughter lobotomized for being "rebellious" then the whole family ostracized her for nearly 20 years afterwards.



And didnt RFK JR beat the hell out of an airport security woman back in the late 90's because she wanted to inspect his bags but didnt face any changes and if I remember correctly the airport fired her too.

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Response to 951-Riverside (Reply #167)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 12:18 PM

168. based on the science of his time, I'm sure

but if he woke up today knowing what we do, he'd be appalled at both himself and his grandson.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:35 PM

18. Scammers, hucksters and delusional "true believers"

They always seem to be able to obtain a platform

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:36 PM

19. I probably know 100 physicians personally, and every single one supports vaccination.

My Dad was a general practitioner, and had many colleagues, all of whom I knew and some of whom are still alive. I have several cousins who are physicians and many friends and classmates who are also physicians. Not ONE of them is an 'anti-vaxer'.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:38 PM

20. I'm sure thankful that vaccines exist, that's for sure. Because...

I never had polio, or smallpox, tuberculosis or any of the other diseases easily prevented by vaccines. My parents made sure I was vaccinated against everything I could be, and because of this I'm still alive and relatively healthy.

As to autism and a variety of other mental conditions, I don't think it's vaccines that cause them at all. I think it is the fact that our stress levels increased an order of magnitude over the 20th century and that increase is accelerating in this century. The problem, the way I see it, is that the Cold War was bad enough, but when the Soviet Union fell in 1991, the socialist 'threat' seemed so thoroughly discredited after decades of Leninism that the right wing capitalists began accelerating their efforts to deregulate, privatize and completely gut the New Deal.

These people, now called 'neoliberals,' want to return us to a more 'pure' brand of capitalism where the market is virtually unrestrained. This, unfortunately, is a living hell for about 99% of the people, including I imagine just about everybody reading this post.

I believe the rise in mental illness of all kinds is directly related to the terrible levels of economic stress we're all under, the fear of being laid off at the drop of a pin, the deterioration of wages and benefits, and the attacks on affordability of college and other programs that help Americans. In addition, the general sense of insecurity caused by the military industrial complex Ike warned us about keeping us on a constant war footing through fear of terrorism, adds to the general malaise.

I'm not a doctor, though. I'm an economist, but I do wonder how much healthier we'd all be if we had the same kind of situation as some Northern European nations, like Denmark. In Denmark, college is free because the government knows that an educated populace makes for a higher standard of living. Danes have cradle to grave healthcare. Sure, they pay really high taxes, but they are generally happier, healthier and live longer than we do.

Oh, but (gasp!) that's SOCIALISM! (shudder)

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #20)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:17 PM

35. Actually, I routinely told my math students

that we live in exponential times, and we're completely unprepared for 'exponential'! This was often a "teachable moment," since I could help them "get" exponential functions with this analogy.

People are going ninety for nothing 24/7/365! It's a wonder we're not all completely nuts!

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #20)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 04:11 PM

70. The following graphic makes clear how current official recommended schedules are varied by country.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #70)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:47 PM

84. Are those mortality rates for all causes, or just infectious diseases?

 

I'll hazard a guess that, in those socialist Scandinavian countries that are high on the list, children get better nutrition and better health care than they do in the U.S.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #84)


Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #70)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 08:38 PM

116. Gosh, Croatia is better than us. That makes me feel better!

After all, this is an EXCEPTIONAL country.

You know, I wonder if the guy that replied below asking about causes of under five mortality understands that the only other thing you'd need to know is how many kids died of diseases, accidents or other causes that have nothing to do with vaccines. At that point, you could do a simple regression analysis, and find out how causal vaccines really are in lowering mortality rates. My estimation is that vaccines are responsible for significant improvement in under five mortality. Surely not completely causal, but hey, as the President says, let's not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

My kids got vaccinated for every common disease there's one available for. A whole bunch of my ancestors died of what they called 'consumption,' which is actually tuberculosis, and I'm old enough to remember the awful painful leg braces polio victims had to wear, and I'll take vaccines any day.

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #116)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:18 PM

128. Great, but which schedule? It's changed a lot, you know.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:42 PM

21. How about a respectful dialogue about vaccines? ...

There actually are plenty of studies showing that vaccines can be both ineffective and dangerous, but those who believe in vaccines are so terrified that they won't listen. Let's have some real dialogue and look at ALL of the evidence, not just one side. Something may be learned. No arguments are ever won by name-calling.

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:50 PM

23. There is a legitimate debate to be had.

 

One particularly about pharmaceutical companies cutting corners for profits and ethical concerns involving doctors and the same companies.

Continuing to claim vaccines cause autism in light of the mountain of evidence to the contrary is not part of that legitimate debate.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:47 PM

63. You are not up-to-date. In addition to the sources below, look around for audio of #CDCwhistleblower

Last edited Mon Sep 15, 2014, 11:34 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.riskscience.umich.edu/mmr-vaccines-autism-bringing-clarity-cdc-whistleblower-story/

COMMENT:

This Einstein quote is written outside at the NIH campus...

The right to search for truth implies also a duty; one must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true.
– Albert Einstein


http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/

NEWS

August 27, 2014 Press Release, “Statement of William W. Thompson, Ph.D., Regarding the 2004 Article Examining the Possibility of a Relationship Between MMR Vaccine and Autism”


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - AUGUST 27,2014

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM W. THOMPSON, Ph.D., REGARDING THE 2004 ARTICLE EXAMINING THE POSSIBILITY OF A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MMR VACCINE AND AUTISM

My name is William Thompson. I am a Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, where I have worked since 1998.

I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.

I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.

My concern has been the decision to omit relevant findings in a particular study for a particular sub­ group for a particular vaccine. There have always been recognized risks for vaccination and I believe it is the responsibility of the CDC to properly convey the risks associated with receipt of those vaccines.

I have had many discussions with Dr. Brian Hooker over the last 10 months regarding studies the CDC has carried out regarding vaccines and neurodevelopmental outcomes including autism spectrum disorders. I share his belief that CDC decision-making and analyses should be transparent. I was not, however, aware that he was recording any of our conversations, nor was I given any choice regarding whether my name would be made public or my voice would be put on the Internet.

I am grateful for the many supportive e-mails that I have received over the last several days. I will not be answering further questions at this time. I am providing information to Congressman William Posey, and of course will continue to cooperate with Congress. I have also offered to assist with reanalysis of the study data or development of further studies. For the time being, however, I am focused on my job and my family.

Reasonable scientists can and do differ in their interpretation of information. I will do everything I can to assist any unbiased and objective scientists inside or outside the CDC to analyze data collected by the CDC or other public organizations for the purpose of understanding whether vaccines are associated with an increased risk of autism. There are still more questions than answers, and I appreciate that so many families are looking for answers from the scientific community.

My colleagues and supervisors at the CDC have been entirely professional since this matter became public. In fact, I received a performance-based award after this story came out. I have experienced no pressure or retaliation and certainly was not escorted from the building, as some have stated.

Dr. Thompson is represented by Frederick M. Morgan,Jr., Morgan Verkamp, LLC, Cincinnati, Ohio, www.morganverkamp.com.


http://sharylattkisson.com/questions-surrounding-review-of-challenged-vaccine-autism-study

Questions Surrounding Review of Challenged Vaccine-Autism Study
by sattkisson on September 10, 2014


Did the medical journal Pediatrics stand by a questioned vaccine-autism study without interviewing the coauthor who confessed to and exposed alleged scientific misconduct?

If so, that would deviate from what should be standard procedure in such an investigation, according to internationally recognized medical ethicist Dr. Michael Carome.

“If the evidence seems substantial, the journal should contact all co-authors, present them with the allegations and supporting evidence, and ask them to respond,” says Carome, a research ethics expert who heads the Health Research Group at the watchdog group Public Citizen.

Last month, William Thompson, a senior scientist at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) stepped forward to say that he and his CDC coauthors omitted key data showing a link between MMR vaccine and autism in African American children. The study was published in 2004 in the journal Pediatrics.

“I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information,” said Thompson in a statement issued through his attorney August 27. “The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.”

It may be unprecedented for the author of a scientific, peer-reviewed article to publicly expose alleged flaws in his own work and that of his colleagues.

“Upon receiving such an allegation, the journal editors should ask the co-author making the allegations to submit them in writing along with the supporting evidence,” says Carome. “In this case, that should include the data that was allegedly withheld improperly.”

However, it appears officials with Pediatrics may have disregarded Thompson’s allegations without speaking to him or examining his documentation. That would mean they interviewed only the co-authors who are accused of improprieties.

When asked about its review process, Pediatrics spokeswoman Susan Stevens Martin initially seemed to imply that the journal had interviewed Thompson.

“There’s a standard process that journals follow when an article is questioned,” Martin said in an email. “Those discussions took place between the editors of Pediatrics and the authors of this study, and the editors concluded the research was appropriately conducted.”

When repeatedly pressed on whether Thompson was consulted, Martin avoided a direct answer.

“The editors followed our normal protocol and are satisfied with the responses by the CDC authors,” she stated, again implying Thompson—a CDC author—was among those consulted.

But a source familiar with Thompson claims that Pediatrics officials never contacted him about his allegations.

When asked for details about its review process and why Thompson wasn’t consulted, the Pediatrics spokeswoman would only say, “The journal takes allegations of the use of fraudulent data seriously” and that it “investigated the allegations in accordance with the Committee on Publication Ethics guidelines and has decided that a retraction is not warranted.”

The Committee on Publication Ethics guidelines states that a journal should “issue an expression of concern” about an article if “authors produce conflicting accounts.”

Pediatrics is published by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), which receives significant funding from vaccine makers but will not disclose the amount.

“As a publisher we take very seriously any questions about articles in our journal and have a set procedure to investigate such issues. We have followed that process, discussed the research methods with the authors, and have determined to take no action regarding the article. Additional questions about the study and its data should be referred to CDC,” said Martin.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #63)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:45 PM

81. Ugh, NTSA.

 

For the hundredth time:


http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/cdc2004pediatrics.html
The study looked at different age groups: children vaccinated by 18 months, 24 months, and 36 months. The findings revealed that vaccination between 24 and 36 months was slightly more common among children with autism, and that association was strongest among children 3-5 years of age. The authors reported this finding was most likely a result of immunization requirements for preschool special education program attendance in children with autism.

The data CDC collected for this study continue to be available for analysis by others. CDC welcomes analysis by others that can be submitted for peer-review and publication. For more information on how to access this public-use dataset please go to the this webpage.

Additional studies and a more recent rigorous review by the Institute of Medicine have found that MMR vaccine does not increase the risk of autism.


So, again: Vaccines don't cause autism.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #81)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:04 PM

102. NTSA? Let me guess from the source/context: "No Telling Stupid Anything?" Well, I disagree.

As detailed recently by Dr. Mark Hyman,

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/collideascape/2014/08/20/robert-kennedy-jr-mark-hyman-appear-dr-oz-show/

Dr Mark Hyman: I am very concerned that public confidence in vaccines has been eroded and see a very important opportunity for policy makers to reassure parents and the population that clear steps have been taken to reduce a potential risk from vaccines and thereby reestablish public trust.

Most consumers and even most policymakers don’t understand that the conclusions from the IOM (which found no correlation between Thimerosal and autism) were fundamentally flawed.

* First, the studies looked only at autism, not at neurodevelopmental disorders in general, missing the potential to identify more subtle harm from Thimerosal.

* Second, population studies by their very nature cannot prove cause and effect, nor disprove it. They can only generate hypotheses based on associations. So to draw a conclusion that they are not linked, and to declare the need for further studies unnecessary, is simply scientifically inaccurate.

* And (third) the few observational studies that the IOM report was based on that everyone quotes as vindicating Thimerosal were deeply flawed as extensively documented in the book.

** Three of the IOM-accepted studies relied in whole or in part on Danish population autism statistics which showed that autism levels increased after Thimerosal was removed from vaccines in 1992. This evidence strongly suggested that Thimerosal was not linked to autism.

However, the IOM did not properly account for confounding factors in the data such as 1) the counting of both outpatient and inpatient cases after 1995 that expanded the number of children known to be affected, 2) the adopted use of a broader definition of autism in 1994, and 3) the exclusion prior to 1992 of the largest Danish clinic treating autism which cared for 20 percent of autism cases.


More: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017206443

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #102)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:11 PM

104. Actually I think it's 'Not This Shit Again'

Although your guess has a ring of truth to it.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #81)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:11 PM

105. 1) #hearthiswell on youtube 2) that Baez song, Diamonds and Rust, 'Then give me another word for it'

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #63)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:35 PM

110. Sharyl Attkisson works for the Heritage Foundation.

And her reporting on Obama and supposed scandals like Fast & Furious, IRS, Benghazi, etc. has been questionable. http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2014/mrcattkisson.html

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #63)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 08:12 PM

114. When are you going to stop killing infants?

 

You are promoting a pseudo-science that is causing actual disease and death among our younger generations. Please stop.

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:59 PM

27. Kennedy calls world-leading immunologists "biostitutes", like prostitutes...

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:09 PM

33. There is no legitimate debate. Anti-vaxxers are a bigger public safety

 

risk than the Ebola virus is.

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:22 PM

36. It will not happen on this website, I think there are too many insecure people here

who cannot discuss, can only name call.

It is sad, actually.

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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #36)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:14 PM

55. No, this is generally a pro-science site.

 

Anti-vaxx arguments are as credible as global warming denial. It is not based in science, but in superstition. And it is dangerous.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #55)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 08:43 PM

119. No, the poster before wanted to talk specifics, not pro or anti vax

but the insecure people on this site will only put it in black or white. No actual discussion of any particular issue or sub issue within the topic.

No, you guys are pretty pathetic.

I certainly understand being worried that something on a discussion board might tip someone the wrong way. But to jump all over any question whatsoever about vaccines with an iron fist....that is not science, but insecurity.

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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #119)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:37 PM

139. Person was/is an obvious anti-vaxxer.

 

There actually are plenty of studies showing that vaccines can be both ineffective and dangerous, but those who believe in vaccines are so terrified that they won't listen


The disparaging remark towards "those who believe in vaccines" flags that one as an anti-vaxxer. Not a person interested in, or capable of, good faith, rational dialogue on public health any more than a Koch bros apparatchik can discuss climate science.

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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #36)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:58 PM

101. Call it "insecurity" that many here refuse to give a platform ....

.... to creationists, climate change deniers, purveyors of quackery (including anti-vaxxers) and anti-science conspiracy theorists.

I do feel significant insecurity when I see so many in this country promoting scientific illiteracy, noting how damaging this is to my country and planet.

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #101)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 08:39 PM

118. See? The same old closed minded reactions

Yes, you are insecure, to put it mildly. Sorry for you.

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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #118)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:39 PM

140. That's what the climate change and Holocaust deniers say when people

 

refuse to give them a platform for their toxic nonsense.

The scientific debate over vaccines as a general matter was over decades ago.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #140)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:08 PM

175. No, the issues worth discussing exist

Last edited Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:48 PM - Edit history (1)

But no one here will because they get shut down by rude posters.





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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #118)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 09:21 AM

163. You are joking, right?

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/left-science-gmo-vaccines

So who's worse when it comes to ignoring and denying science, the political left or the political right?

For a long time, those wishing to claim that both sides are equally bad—we're all biased, just in different directions—have relied upon two key issues in making their case: vaccines and genetically modified foods, or GMOs. The suggestion is that these are basically the liberal equivalent of evolution denial or global-warming denial. Skeptic magazine founding publisher Michael Shermer, for instance, prominently cited resistance to GMOs in a Scientific American article last year entitled "The Liberals' War on Science." As for vaccines? In a recent segment entitled "An Outbreak of Liberal Idiocy," no less than The Daily Show suggested that vaccine denial is a left-wing scourge:
....

And sure enough, the evidence just doesn't support the idea that vaccine denial is some special left-wing fixation—and it's barely any kinder to received wisdom on the issue of GMOs. I will demonstrate as much below, but first, let's remember why this matters.

It is very clear that there are certain major issues where there is only one correct scientific answer, and political conservatives are much more likely to deny that answer than are liberals or moderates. Conservatives have also been shown to trust scientists less than liberals or moderates do. So no wonder they also reject their most important (if sometimes inconvenient) conclusions more often.


"I am not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance," John Stewart

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #163)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:29 PM

177. No I am not, and this is just the typical thing- lumping not approving of gmo's in

with vaccine questioning.

The simplistic thinking on this board is embarrassing.

There are plenty of scientific problems with gmo's. Ask a real scientist- not a paid off one. There are plenty of us.

Same thing with vaccines. What about the dose and the timing of them? Are the current recommendations best? I am not talking about not getting them, just when and at what dosage.

It used to be when the preservative was in them that the nurse would give the amount of vaccine appropriate to the weight of the child. Once it became single dose, it is the whole vial, without the accommodating of the actual weights. Isn't this a reasonable thing to discuss with the nurse or doctor? Oh but bring it up here, and the whole noisy rude crowd goes ballistic. And what about the one vaccine at a time people. What in the world is wrong with that idea? Plenty of doctors and nurses think that is fine, as long as the child is not in a child care facility. But people on DU go nuts about this as well.

There is a family who will not come out to my farm because they do not give their children even tetanus shots. I was really mystified and worried about them. I found out that when one of the parents was a babe he had a severe reaction to a vaccine- leaving him brain damaged (hospitalized for over a year). How can I blame them for being worried about vaccines? I have only had sore muscles and sore rumps from the old gamma globulin shots we used to get in the Peace Corps. I have never experienced any of these terrible reactions. I am vaccinated for life against all sorts of tropical diseases. Lucky me. But some people are not so robust. Who am I to be so critical and judgmental?

And all of you spouting off so rudely, think about it. Screaming at people and calling them names does not open up their minds to doing the thing that they should do, getting their kids vaccinated. Fear is not soothed by screaming and name calling. Actual questions need to be answered. If spacing the shots out over time will get a parent who has had a bad experience in their family to go forward with vaccinating their children, then by all means encourage it. Encourage people, stop the negative accusations and belittlement. You all come off sounding very very ignorant and NOT LIBERAL at all.

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:25 PM

37. Just FYI:

On Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:10 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

How about a respectful dialogue about vaccines? ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5530459

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Anti-vaccination nonsense. People die because of this idiocy.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:22 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Wow. Not what I gleaned from that post AT ALL.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Frivolous alert.

The post in question violates no rules.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Why was this post alerted on? Any time I read an alerted post and this is the first question that comes to my mind, I know what my vote needs to be. This is one of those times. Vote to Leave.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A request for a reasoned discussion? This has NO PLACE on DU. Unless a post contains a personal insult, it must be by a disruptor.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: While I agree this is anti-vaccination nonsense, there is nothing in the posters misguided plea that is ban worthy.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Really alerter? A plea to examine the evidence is nonsense? I am biased against anti-vac foolishness, but this isn't that.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #37)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:07 PM

134. So what idiot alerted on this request for a dialog?

See the site is full of insecure people! At least the jury had some sense!

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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #134)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:42 PM

141. I did. Because anti-vax nonsense kills people who believe it

 

and even endangers those who don't.

There is no dialogue or legitimate debate to be had as to whether mass vaccinations are an appropriate tool of public health.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #141)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 12:25 AM

147. well there, you proved my point

Seriously, this is actually a discussion board, to a place for bullying.

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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #147)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:38 AM

162. There is nothing to debate

 

There is the science and facts, and then there is the deranged nonsense that kills people.

Holocaust deniers make the same self-pitying complaints.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #141)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 12:46 AM

149. So you admit abusing the alert system to push your point of view. Apparently you don't

 

feel you are capable of presenting a coherent argument so you want to alert, lock, hide, ridicule, and tar and feather.
Anything to stifle those that don't march with you in lock step.

I find it interesting that those here that are so passionate for the safety of our health, never discuss fracking. Fracking is causing harm to millions, but the "fans of Obama" will never speak out against fracking or the XL Pipeline. Pres Obama supports fracking and the environmentally damaging XL Pipeline.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #37)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:59 PM

143. I wish that members would refrain from bullshit alerts.

A challenge to the statement is the way to respond.

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:25 PM

38. "but those who believe in vaccines are so terrified" "No arguments are ever won by name-calling."

 

Wow, that's some irony, saying arguments are not won by name calling, a couple sentences after calling names...

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:27 PM

40. Respectfully, you are wrong: "There actually are plenty of studies showing that vaccines can be

both ineffective and dangerous."

The anti-vax crowd is made up of con men and grifters preying on the gullible.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #40)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:04 PM

49. You may be correct about many or most anti-vaxxers, but not all are con men or grifters.

 

Some are parents who lost their children.

If you have never read this book, it's highly recommended,
and might help you and like-minded anti-vax-haters have
a little more compassion.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IjyuHR3GTdgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=shot+in+the+dark&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R5IUVP6jCqLIiwKvioH4BA&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=shot%20in%20the%20dark&f=false

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #49)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:12 PM

53. Compassion doesn't make junk science

 

any less dangerous.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #53)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:15 PM

57. I agree but it's never an effective strategy to attack people in order to change their beliefs.

 

In fact, there are many authentically broken hearted
people who trusted the so called valid science, and
lost their children. They trusted the trained medical
authorities, and they lost their kids. It is a subject
worthy of much more compassion, understanding,
better science, better testing, better oversight and
regulation of manufacturers, and genuine give and take
dialogue on both sides of the issue.



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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #57)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:19 PM

58. There is no legitimate anti - vaccination

 

side of the debate. Just like there is no legitimate climate change denial, or Holocaust denial side of a debate.

Certainly the instrumentality of vaccines need to be made as safe as possibity, but the science on the overall benefit-all things considered--of vaccines is beyond rational dispute.

Every medical intervention carries a risk, and even the unlikeliest risk will be realized over several hundred million cases.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #58)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:44 PM

61. I don't know if there is or isn't. But there are legitimate stories of damaged children; and it's no

 

wonder people are often afraid to trust the FDA, the
pharmaceutical corporations, and even their own doctors.

I had to change pediatricians several times when my kids
were young. They had degrees but no idea what they were
doing.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #61)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:54 PM

67. .

 

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:45 PM

47. How many is plenty?

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:48 PM

48. please post links to those "plenty of studies"

 

You want real dialogue than start with the evidence that you have- and please be sure that they are peer reviewed studies published in reputable scientific journals. and for the love of reason, don't post anything from that vile nut site, natural news.

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 10:00 PM

182. Ironically, its the anti-vaccination movement that refuses to have a real dialogue

 

And talk about the persistent name-calling, smears, and accusations of ulterior motives or being "paid shills for industry" toward their opponents!

I think a lot of people recognize the enormous amount of empirical scientific evidence that vaccination is, on balance, enormously positive for human health (both individually and on the collective level). I also think a lot of these same people would be happy to defend their position calmly and coherently with logic, evidence, facts, and real-life examples.

I don't see the same amount of critical thinking, respect for the scientific method, and objectivity (or at least, attempting to be objective) among the anti-vax crowd; in fact, just the opposite. That's why it's hard for me to respect them, in addition to the fact that their scaremongering tactics have had horrific consequences for a lot of people-people getting sick, and people dying. That's not OK.

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Response to DesertDiamond (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 11:53 AM

200. You're more concerned with disproven claims of vaccine danger than REAL diseases that kill

 

and maim children and adults.

Sense. It makes none.

measles:


polio:


tetanus:

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 01:59 PM

26. So disappointing.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]I wish Robert had just stuck to his areas of expertise, where he was doing some very real good.



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Response to silverweb (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:00 PM

28. +1...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)


Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:05 PM

32. He is such a sharp guy, it's amazing how DUMB he is on this issue.


Extremely disappointing.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:26 PM

39. Dr. Oz - more poison that Oprah has unleashed on the world.

Same with Dr. Phil and Tyler Perry.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:28 PM

41. Re: "dr" Oz: giving out suspect medical advice should not be allowed on tv

He has been exposed numerous times and even had to appear at a Congressional hearing to admit that he was full of it. Yet he is allowed to dispense medical "advice" that thousands of people who do not know any better follow.

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #41)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:31 PM

42. The letter from the FDA to his producers...

posted upthread, directly supports your comments.

Oz, like RFK Jr., is irresponsible and dangerous.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:42 PM

45. sid, thanks for being you.

what a sorry pass to come to, to see the kennedy name dragged through the mud like this man is doing. just sad. sad.sad.sad.

and no people, there really are no good arguments to be made about vaccines being dangerous. drug company misbehavior, like monsanto's misbehavior, does not alter the science of the things they produce. two VERY different issues, which it behooves us to remind people.

but it is a tough sell sometimes.
keep beating the drum, sid.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #45)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 02:43 PM

46. Thanks, mopinko...



Sid

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Response to mopinko (Reply #45)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:15 PM

56. Well said. (nt)

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:12 PM

52. Delete the 'asshat' references

and this might get my attention.

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Response to elleng (Reply #52)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:37 PM

60. Well, RFK Jr. IS an asshat...

 

I think Sid nailed it.

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Response to elleng (Reply #52)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:01 PM

122. You are asking a lot. It's so much more fun to get out tar and feathers than actually

 

discuss issues.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #122)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 11:12 PM

145. Considering every single one of your posts in this thread

 

has been some degree of diversion, that's just laughable.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:34 PM

59. Look, y'all

whether you like him or not (and I don't, although I used to), Mehmet Oz IS a board certified MD, a cardiothoracic surgeon, and does deserve the title of Doctor, so it is rude and tacky to refer to him as "Dr" Oz. If he were posing as one, that would be one thing, but he's not. Now I agree that a lot of the stuff he's promoting is crazy, but at least give him the title he's earned.

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Response to VA_Jill (Reply #59)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:49 PM

64. Won't happen, DU has niche groups that fight over certain topics...this being one.

 

No respect given, it applies to pretty much anyone...fair game in the minds of the groups.

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Response to VA_Jill (Reply #59)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 04:02 PM

68. Oz testified before Congress that he is a cheerleader

 

as oppose to a doctor when he's on his show.

He's a quack.
Oz again defended himself describing his "job" on his program "The Dr. Oz Show" as a "cheerleader for the audience," noting with products like green coffee bean extract you need to still eat healthy and exercise. "You can't spread it on kielbasa and expect it to work," he said.


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/06/dr-oz-scolded-by-senators-for-miracle-weight-loss-claims/

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 03:52 PM

65. Regardless of an improbable autism connection, thimerosal does not belong in children's vaccines.

According to the Phd chemical engineer in my family, there is no such thing as a safe form of mercury, and exposure should be limited as much as possible -- especially to children. The simple solution is to use single use vials that don't require preservatives.

It has already been eliminated from most of the childhood vaccines. But it should also be removed from the flu shots young children and pregnant women receive.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #65)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:46 PM

83. did your PHD tell you much mercury you inhale living downwind of a coal-fired power plant?

About a 1000 times more.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #83)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:52 PM

87. One wrong exposure doesn't excuse more -- especially one that's injected directly into

the baby or pregnant mother.

But we don't live downwind of any coal-fired plants (which should be strictly regulated to eliminate off-gassing of toxins.)

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #65)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 10:15 PM

137. Did he say anything about a nice tuna filet?

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Response to Separation (Reply #137)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:29 AM

156. Yes. We eat other fish. We skip the tuna.

Pregnant women shouldn't eat any tuna, and other people should limit their consumption. As a fish high on the food chain, tuna can accumulate a lot of mercury. And there are plenty of other kinds of fish that don't.

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2014/08/consumer_reports_warns_pregnan.html

The Consumer Reports review listed seven – wild and Alaskan salmon, shrimp, sardines, tilapia, scallops, oysters and squid – that can pretty much be eaten with abandon (36 ounces a week for a 132-pound person and 18 ounces a week for a 44-pound child). Eleven other species – haddock, pollock, flounder, sole, catfish, trout, Atlantic mackerel, Atlantic croaker, mullet, crawfish and crab – are also relatively low in mercury.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #65)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:17 AM

154. Good idea to remove it...

but frankly one gets a lot more mercury exposure by eating fish. By the way, I do eat lots of fish, and consider that the nutritional health benefits outweigh the risks for most people.

One point about mercury is that children on the whole got a lot MORE exposure to it 100 years ago than nowadays. Mercury was a significant ingredient of many medicines and even teething powders. This was undoubtedly bad for children, and sometimes even fatal, and it is a very good thing that it is no longer the case. However, according to the autism theory (which I'm not accusing you of holding, but has been brought up by others on the thread), autism should have been much commoner in the past than now, if mercury were a major cause. Maybe it was - the condition was not formally recognized before the 1940s, so would not have been diagnosable then - but that would go against the idea of a current 'autism epidemic'.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #154)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:26 AM

155. We don't eat any tuna around here, which is the fish most likely to have high levels.

It's the fish up on the food chain that accumulate more.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 04:19 PM

71. What an asshat, I guess nobody told him thimerosol was out in 2001

That's right, kiddies, it's never been in the MMR and was taken out of all other mandatory vaccines in 2001 due to hysterical rantings of people like Kennedy causing medically ignorant people to risk deadly diseases so their kid wouldn't catch the autism.

Anti vaxers aren't intellectually honest enough to admit that the autism rates have continued to increase without thimerosol.

Kennedy is among the worst of them, using a respected family name to shovel shit at nervous parents.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #71)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 04:31 PM

72. Yup. And here's a screencap from the Oz show...



The dumbasses at the Dr. Oz show aren't careful enough with their research to know that Thiomerosal was never in MMR.

Sid

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Response to Warpy (Reply #71)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:33 AM

157. I guess no one told you that pregnant women now take flu vaccines with thimerosol,

and that mercury crosses the blood-brain barrier.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #157)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 12:52 PM

169. Yes, and he failed to mention

that pregnant women are now receiving tdap, and while they have done a terrific job removing thimerosal in the children's schedule, what about shots available to adults. Bottom line here, it appears they have cleaned up the vaccines somewhat, more is coming with aluminum, and if it took a group of moms to be called anti vax to bring this about those moms and the scientists behind them should be very proud. Now what about those kids born 1988 to 2002..do we continue to deny their damages? They seem to be sending the all clear siren, doesn't that incriminate them for harming those kids now 12 to 26?

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Response to barbaraj (Reply #169)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:36 PM

171. I think you put your finger on it.

Sad to say, it's all about the liability. The pharmaceutical companies have known since the beginning that mercury is a dangerous neurotoxin, and the potential damages that have accumulated in the 83 years since Eli Lilly first introduced mercury into baby vaccines are staggering:

The first known cases of autism were diagnosed in 1943 in children born in the first months after Eli Lilly began adding mercury to baby vaccines in 1931. Leo Kanner, who first described and named the disease based upon his encounters with 11 autistic children, was one of the fathers of American psychiatry. He described the disease as “a behavior pattern not known to me or anyone else heretofore.”13

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF


That's from RFK's 2005 "Tobacco Science" article, which appeared in Slate and Rolling Stone (since removed from both), and that explains the ferocious push-back against RFK and others from the pharmaceutical companies.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #171)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 09:40 PM

178. This is good information,

yet as in the case of the recent scientist William Thompson coming forward, we will not have media coverage, in fact we are having absolute blackouts. It's difficult to form an opinion when the information is censored . I remember listening to a congressional hearing, when asked "has thimerosal been checked since 1928 for safety, the answer was "NO".

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:03 PM

75. Kick and rec!

But...but...he's a Kennedy!

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:18 PM

76. Disgusting that this is still debated on DU.

People have a blind spot when it comes to the fact that their darling is endangering the lives of children for personal profit.

Rec'd

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #76)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:22 PM

77. bmus! Good to see you...



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #77)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:28 PM

78. Hi Sid!

How are those adorable lil Dithers?


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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #78)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:34 PM

79. Not so little anymore. Both in high school...

and one just started driving.

They make me feel old.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 05:41 PM

80. Excellent OP as always, Sid. RFK Jr. is a stain on the progressive cause. nt

 

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:18 PM

94. I just got my T-Dapp for free with Obamacare.

Thanks Obama.

Since pertussis is on the rise in my county due to special snowflakes who won't vax, I have to worry about getting medieval diseases at the age of 44.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:32 PM

96. I am glad you are so health conscience. How about fracking? Are you as passionate about

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #96)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:44 PM

97. You should start a thread about fracking...

Any comments about RFK Jr's anti-vax asshattery?

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #97)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:09 PM

103. Don't you agree that fracking is a very serious health concern? Or do you agree with Pres Obama

 

that it's safe and a "bridge" to a clean energy future.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #103)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:33 PM

109. Yes, fracking and anti vaxxers are the same thing.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #96)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:51 PM

100. Because if there's one thing we know

 

It's that if you don't believe vaccines cause autism, you must support fracking.

Yep, that totally holds up.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #96)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:35 PM

111. Upset someone benefited from Obamacare, Rick?

How...progressive.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 06:50 PM

99. That's a shame that he's an antivax person.

I attended a speech he gave 11 years ago about environmentalism and it was very good. Tragic to lose such a good speaker to something so truther like.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:18 PM

127. Anti-vaxxers should be loudly ridiculed...

 

at every opportunity. The harm they cause is great. I just got custody of my 3 grandchildren- 12 years, 4 years, and 10 months. The youngest hadn't had any of her shots, and the 4 year old only had the initial batch years ago. We are getting them caught up now.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #127)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:19 PM

129. Love those grandkiddies to the moon and back...



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Sep 13, 2014, 09:55 PM

132. I am almost

through the book. He has not said thimerosal causes autism. I have decided to get my daughter the flu shot , and I will be asking for thimerosal free. When she's old enough she may get the flu mist. I haven't seen within this book where he's anti vax , I see where he isololated a very dangerous chemical and is attempting to educate us. If that's wrong ,so be it, but the effect of the book was to think for yourself when knowledge is yours , and use it as a tool to protect your kids. It appears it was dangerous through out the nineties. That is a shame .

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Response to barbaraj (Reply #132)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 04:02 AM

160. Thank you barbaraj, and welcome to DU

 

This thread is about the worst of DU. Yes, it rarely gets worse, but a few times it does.

As you can see the attacks on RFK have no merit, and no science backing. When presented with the fact that Mercury is a toxic, all kinds of excuses come flying off the keyboards of the mob who drool over attacking RFK any chance they get.

Take this as an apology from me, everyone, for the nonsense exhibited by some posters in this thread. But make note of those posters for they cause problems elsewhere on DU.


And here is a report and link for anyone looking for the TRUTH about RFK as regards this delicate matter:

Here is RFK being quoted at link posted
"Robert F. Kennedy Jr. told me that the book he commissioned has a chapter “we were going to leave out, because it’s so controversial, but the evidence is so strong that thimerosal causes autism,” that he’s keeping it in.
Yet in the next breath he said he wasn’t going to publish the book (even though it has a publisher and is going through edits right now) because it is so explosive that he doesn’t want it to prompt a mass panic: “I don’t want parents to stop vaccinating their kids.” (“I’m pro-vaccine,” he insisted several times during the call.)

http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/robert_kennedy_jr_vaccines_aut.php?page=all

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5321526

Also posted on my journal.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #160)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 11:39 AM

166. It's a rough topic

to discuss. When we have children we spend important time choosing ob's, pediatricians, hospitals, birth plans, strollers, nursing systems, car seats, it makes sense that we look at our children's vaccine schedule. But to discuss vaccines ,imo, the most important decision making topic we have, is to give yourself a scarlet letter. I admittedly read everything on the topic. Would I ,as example give my child a dtp after reading this, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3284047/, no. But did I get her a dtap, yes. Am I called an antivaxer, yes, my reading has placed a question mark above a few vaccines. I would not get her an HPV vaccine as a nine year old, the effectiveness doesn't seem to last into the teens. Would I consider it at age 17, maybe. Do I think vaccines played a part in autism, yes. Do I know which ones, no, I depend on studies to provide that information, and there seems to be a failure to proceed with that particular line of science. Is every child at risk, I doubt it, we may one day identify the at risk children and find other ways to protect them. Do I believe that genetics cause autism, it's likely, it's likely that a group of the susceptible would never develop autism without vaccines as the trigger. But since the numbers are rising along with the addition of vaccines to the schedule we may find out it's not so rare a susceptibility. So I do what I do, try to make decisions for my OWN family, I would never tell a person, don't get that shot because "I read", I go to the science, and the science is played in a balance, they use the "weight of evidence", the 'consensus", making it even more difficult for decision making. It's similar to a poll, a board is called in to review the science, five may agree, four my not. The winner gets published. We see a generation of kids in the seventies to eighties that took their vaccines, and they were fine, making that old schedule look pretty tempting.Vaccines alone do not cause autism, but some do cause encephalitis, and encephalitis can result in autistic behaviors, and autistic behaviors bear the label autism. If you choose a lighter schedule, or based on your findings choose not to vaccinate a child,who you believe has the susceptibility , you are not a heretic, you are simply doing what's best for your family. Antivax is an ugly label, and can do nothing but end the conversation. How many of us give our kids aspirin? When our mothers stopped using it because of the whisperings, ten years before the science, twenty years before the bayer admission, they were considered, "hippies".

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #160)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 12:59 PM

170. Thank you,

I was not surprised to see Robert Kennedy announce himself as pro vaccine, really who wouldn't want a vaccine to prevent any illness, and I think he's on the same page as many families, just give us the best, safest product that can be made. I'm thinking few read his book, and less watched the clips provided here.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 02:54 AM

151. What happened to that guy????

And what was Cheryl Hines thinking????

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Response to MADem (Reply #151)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:34 PM

193. I know!...

She was great on Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Maybe RFK Jr. is a fantastic guy away from the anti-vax circuit.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:49 AM

158. Sid you know this is an insulting title. It's also inaccurate.

First of all, reducing RFK Jr. to an "Anti-vax asshat" shows a lack of class, as Thimerosal is only one of several environmental issues that he works on. It's also a lousy way to talk about any member of the Kennedy family, particularly on a Democratic message board, whatever your opinion on this particular issue, but I think you probably already know this, and don't need it explained.

Secondly, your title is not accurate. He's not "anti-vax," and if you bothered to read so much as the first sentence of your own excerpt you'd know that. His objections are to the mercury adjuvant used to preserve multiple dose vaccines, not to the vaccines themselves, the safety of which he has not to my knowledge called into question. But I think you knew that too.

Finally, you really should read his article and stop obsessing about RFK Jr. In fact I'd advise anyone interested in the subject to have a look. It's a PDF essay posted on Scribd, so just ignore any subscription offers that pop up, as you can read it for free online or download it for free and read it laterr:

"Tobacco Science and the Thimerosal Scandal" - Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/209365850/Tobacco-Science-and-the-Thimerosal-Scandal-Robert-F-Kennedy-Jr


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Response to ucrdem (Reply #158)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:54 PM

173. Some feel better if they find someone to tar and feather and heaven help those that try

 

to calm the fervor. The fervor precludes rationality.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #173)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 04:15 PM

174. Remember Science Diet?

The scientifically formulated vet-endorsed dog food that wound up killing dogs? The fact is that the medical-pharmaceutical establishment can be wrong, and worse, can lie and obfuscate to escape liabity, and when you start adding up 83 years worth of potential damages spread across dozens of countries, the sums get rather large. And we've seen some very scary stuff happen when major industries face big-money liabilities for products they've known to be unsafe for decades.

.......................................

p.s. better link to RFK Jr's "Tobacco Science" article (it seems Scribd isn't free anymore): http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #174)

Mon Sep 15, 2014, 07:34 AM

189. It was melamine-tainted gluten from China, unbeknownst to MANY pet food brands

not just Science Diet.


Bird Food Recalls
United Pet Group Inc.

Cat Food Recalls
Americas Choice, Preferred Pet
Authority
Best Choice
Blue Buffalo Co (RICE GLUTEN)
Cats Choice
Co-Op Gold
Companion
Compliments
Demolulas Market Basket
Demoulas/Market Basket
Despar
Diamond Pet Food (RICE GLUTEN)
Doctors Foster & Smith
Doctors Foster & Smith (RICE GLUTEN)
Eight In One Inc (Salmonella)
Eukanuba Cat Cuts and Flaked
Eukanuba Morsels in Gravy
Evolve
Evolve
Fame
Feline Classic
Feline Cuisine
Fine Feline Cat
Food Lion
Foodtown
Giant Companion
Giant Eagle
Hannaford
Harmony Farms (RICE GLUTEN)
Hartz Mountain Corp (Salmonella)
Health Diet Cat Food
Hill Country Fare
Hill's Prescription Diet
Hy Vee
Hy-Vee
Iams Cat Slices and Flakes
Iams Select Bites
J.E. Mondou
La Griffe
Laura Lynn
Li'l Red
Lick Your Chops
Lick Your Chops (RICE GLUTEN)
Loving Meals
Master Choice
Medi-Cal
Meijer's Main Choice
Natural Balance (RICE GLUTEN)
Natural Ultramix
Nu Pet
Nutriplan
Nutro
Nutro Max Cat Gourmet Classics
Nutro Max Gourmet Classics
Nutro Natural Choice
Nutro Products
Paws
Performatrin Ultra
Pet Pride
Pet Pride / Good n Meaty
Pounce
Presidents Choice
Price Chopper
Priority Canada
Priority US
Publix
Roche Brothers
Roundy's
Royal Canin (RICE GLUTEN)
Royal Canin Veterinary Diet (RICE GLUTEN)
Save-A-Lot Special Blend
Schnucks
Science Diet Feline Cuts Adult
Science Diet Feline Cuts Kitten
Science Diet Feline Cuts Mature Adult 7+
Science Diet Feline Savory Cuts Can
Sophistacat
Special Kitty Canada
Special Kitty US
Springfield Prize
Sprout
Stop & Shop Companion
Stuzzy Gold
Triumph
Wegmans
Weis Total Pet
Western Family Canada
Western Family US
White Rose
Winn Dixie
Your Pet

Dog Food Recalls
ALPO
Americas Choice, Preferred Pet
Authority
Award
Berkley & Jenson (Salmonella)
Best Choice
Big Bet
Big Red
Bloom
Blue Buffalo (RICE GLUTEN)
Bruiser
Cadillac
Canine Caviar Pet Foods (RICE GLUTEN)
Champion Breed Lg Biscuit
Champion Breed Peanut Butter Biscuits
Co-Op Gold
Companion
Companion's Best Multi-Flavor Biscuit
Compliments
Costco/Kirkland Signature (RICE GLUTEN)
Demoulas Market Basket
Diamond Pet Food
Diamond Pet Food (RICE GLUTEN)
Doctors Foster & Smith
Doctors Foster & Smith (RICE GLUTEN)
Dollar General
Eight In One Inc (Salmonella)
Eukanuba Can Dog Chunks in Gravy
Eukanuba Pouch Dog Bites in Gravy
Food Lion
Giant Companion
Gravy Train
Grreat Choice
Hannaford
Happy Tails
Harmony Farms (RICE GLUTEN)
Harmony Farms Treats (RICE GLUTEN)
Health Diet Gourmet Cuisine
Hill Country Fare
Hy Vee
Hy-Vee
Iams Can Chunky Formula
Iams Can Small Bites Formula
Iams Dog Select Bites
Jerky Treats Beef Flavored Dog Snacks
La Griffe
Laura Lynn
Loving Meals
Mars Petcare US Inc (Salmonella)
Master Choice
Meijer's Main Choice
Mighty Dog
Mixables
Mulligan Stew Pet Food (RICE GLUTEN)
Natural Balance (RICE GLUTEN)
Natural Life
Natural Way
Nu Pet
Nutriplan
Nutro
Nutro - Ultra
Nutro Max
Nutro Natural Choice
Nuture
Ol' Roy
Ol' Roy 4-Flavor Lg Biscuits
Ol' Roy Canada
Ol' Roy Peanut Butter Biscuits
Ol' Roy Puppy
Ol'Roy (Salmonella)
Ol'Roy US
Ol'Roy US (Salmonella)
Paws
Perfect Pals Large Biscuits
Performatrin Ultra
Pet Essentials
Pet Life
Pet Pride / Good n Meaty
Petrapport Inc. (Salmonella)
Presidents Choice
Price Chopper
Priority Canada
Priority US
Publix
Roche Brothers
Royal Canin (RICE GLUTEN)
Royal Canin Veterinary Diet (RICE GLUTEN)
Save-A-Lot Choice Morsels
Schnuck's
Schnucks
Shep
Shep Dog
Shop Rite
SmartPak (RICE GLUTEN)
Springfield Prize
Sprout
Stater Brothers
Stater Brothers Large Biscuits
Stop & Shop Companion
T.W. Enterpriese (Salmonella)
Tops Companion
Triumph
Truly
Weis Total Pet
Western Family Canada
Western Family US
White Rose
Winn Dixie
Your Pet

Ferret Food Recalls
Eight In One Inc (Salmonella)
Ultra-Blend Advanced Nutrition

Fish Food Recalls
Sergeant's Pet Care

Rat Food Recalls
United Pet Group Inc.
Melamine contaminated Pet Foods - 2007 Recall List http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/petfoodrecall/

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Response to eShirl (Reply #189)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 09:27 PM

248. Right. Scores of pet food makers got it wrong, pets died. It happens.

Which is my point.

p.s. sorry for not replying earlier but frankly I expected this disgraceful Kennedy-bashing thread to go away a long time ago. It doesn't merit serious attention.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 10:51 AM

164. Can't believe he got sucked into all that -

the Kennedy family is supposedly intelligent.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:15 PM

176. to place too much credence in RFK is to believe in dynasties

He's been a blowhard for a while. His internet/radio show on pacifica was a tiresome bore.

Just proves that political dynasties should be avoided.... even the Clinton dynasty...

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Mon Sep 15, 2014, 07:20 AM

187. DU rec.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Mon Sep 15, 2014, 07:22 AM

188. Why does Dr. Oz still have a medical license?

Or does he?

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Response to eShirl (Reply #188)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 11:20 AM

190. Who knows. It's a mystery...

he was once a respected surgeon. Maybe fame has gone to his head.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 11:21 AM

191. just so there is no confusion, i completely support the use of asshat in this context

 

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #191)

Tue Sep 16, 2014, 11:22 AM

192. Thanks, Lioness!...



It's a wonderfully descriptive word, isn't it.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 01:58 AM

194. Kick!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #194)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:01 PM

195. Thanks for the kick...



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #195)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:45 PM

196. kick again

 

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:57 PM

197. Thimerosal was removed from all childhood vaccines in 2001

(except minute amounts in flu vaccine) and there has been a continued increase in autism regardless. Its not the cause.



Autism begins in the womb, pretty well demonstrated by modern research, and vaccine (with or without thimerosal) has nothing to do with it.

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #197)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 02:39 AM

198. Familiar w the following? If not, please investigate further including Youtube #hearthiswell (~340?)

Warning: Gratuitous image (fake 'fire' on pregnant abdomen) near end of 1:02 minute video. To avoid, listen to audio only.



CDC Whistleblower Dr. Thompson on Thimerosal and Pregnant Women
Published on Aug 27, 2014


Here's a glimpse into the backstory (with corroboration). Tip of the iceberg, obviously.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/08/our-story-so-far-both-mmr-mercury-laced-vaccines-cause-autism.html

(ignore the title)
By Dan Olmsted is Editor of Age of Autism
Posted by Age of Autism at August 28, 2014


...Thompson himself reported that he was under tremendous pressure to absolve thimerosal at all costs and run and rerun the analyses to remove the association between thimerosal exposure and tics.

Consequently, when the severely compromised manuscript was submitted to the New England Journal of Medicine for consideration for publication, it was soundly rejected with the following comments from the peer reviewers:

Reviewer 1: In this paper, the authors seem to be hoping for and wanting to demonstrate lack of relationships. When a relationship does emerge, the authors essentially downplay it, even though…a) The authors argue for how strong the dataset is earlier in the paper and b) the authors explain why SEM is superior to alternative analytic techniques.

Reviewer 2: The authors’ conclusion that “thimerosal is not a major causal agent for tic disorders (p. 13),” is not in accordance with their own data. That is, it is not reasonable, on the one hand, to argue that the use of SEM reduces the probability of Type I error, and then, on the other hand, to ignore the one significant, positive finding because of “the lack of biological plausibility of such a relationship.”

Reviewer 3: In general, the arguments presented on page 13 that findings on the tic outcome variable were not seen as sufficiently persuasive to completely dismiss those findings. Only one citation is provided. Further, in the absence of complete heritability, evidence of heritability does not (as the authors seem to suggest), rule out gene-by-environment interactions or even direct environmental effects...If the authors are to convince skeptical professionals, parents, or public policy-makers of their point, they would be well-advised to address the purported mechanisms of effect that have been proposed.

The manuscript was then submitted to and rejected by the Journal of the American Medical Association before it was finally picked up by the Journal of Pediatrics Psychology and was published in 2012.

Related reframing: http://www.pressherald.com/2014/09/02/maine-voices-breakdown-in-accountability-at-heart-of-decline-in-vaccinations/

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #198)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 11:38 AM

199. Then removal of thimerosal from children's vaccines 13 years ago should have affected autism rates

along with the recommendation that pregnant women skip the flu shot and avoid fish with measurable mercury contamination. Clearly, the rates have risen, while mercury exposure has dropped. If one is really concerned with autism the argument should move on to actual causes, rather than continuing to flay an apparently non-involved party.

I've heard few, if any, arguments for the safety and benefits of thimerosal, and I'm unconvinced myself that it is safe. But if its use has been significantly decreased, while autism continues to rise, its obvious that the cause lies elsewhere. There has been a lot of research toward the actual causes in the last ten years, and there is some very promising current research toward developmental strategies, based on understanding how it affects the young brain, that suggests the cognitive issues can be successfully "cured". I'm hopeful, myself, and I think science is doing a good job on this one.

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #199)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 07:45 PM

201. It's crushing how misleading a single sentence can be, not to mention paragraphs.

As an example:

"Then removal of thimerosal from children's vaccines 13 years ago should have affected autism rates - HUGE TOPIC See Dr. Mark Hyman's comments (below)
along with the recommendation that pregnant women skip the flu shot - LISTEN BELOW OBGYN NEWS, NO WARNING TO AVOID THIMEROSAL EVEN NOW
and avoid fish with measurable mercury contamination." - DONE


http://www.obgynnews.com/home/article/video-experts-offer-top-tips-for-flu-season-2014-2015/f4f72b6d8237665549a38c4ea1a7200b.html

VIDEO: Experts offer top tips for flu season 2014-2015

By: HEIDI SPLETE, Ob.Gyn. News Digital Network
SEPTEMBER 18, 2014


WASHINGTON – Options and opportunity are the keys to navigating the 2014-2015 flu season, according to a panel of experts at a press conference sponsored by the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases.

“The easier we make it for people to get vaccinated, the more likely they are to get vaccinated,” said CDC Director Thomas Frieden, who received his flu shot at the press conference.

In interviews at the conference, Dr. Frieden, Dr. Paul A. Offit of the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia; Dr. Laura E. Riley of Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston; and Dr. William Schaffner of Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tenn., discussed making the most of opportunities to vaccinate patients, offering reassurance about vaccine safety (especially for pregnant women), setting an example in your practice by getting vaccinated yourself, and ensuring that everyone who works in your office receives a flu vaccine as well.

VIDEOS AT LINK.


As detailed recently by Dr. Mark Hyman,

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/collideascape/2014/08/20/robert-kennedy-jr-mark-hyman-appear-dr-oz-show/

Dr Mark Hyman: I am very concerned that public confidence in vaccines has been eroded and see a very important opportunity for policy makers to reassure parents and the population that clear steps have been taken to reduce a potential risk from vaccines and thereby reestablish public trust.

Most consumers and even most policymakers don’t understand that the conclusions from the IOM (which found no correlation between Thimerosal and autism) were fundamentally flawed.

* First, the studies looked only at autism, not at neurodevelopmental disorders in general, missing the potential to identify more subtle harm from Thimerosal.

* Second, population studies by their very nature cannot prove cause and effect, nor disprove it. They can only generate hypotheses based on associations. So to draw a conclusion that they are not linked, and to declare the need for further studies unnecessary, is simply scientifically inaccurate.

* And (third) the few observational studies that the IOM report was based on that everyone quotes as vindicating Thimerosal were deeply flawed as extensively documented in the book.

** Three of the IOM-accepted studies relied in whole or in part on Danish population autism statistics which showed that autism levels increased after Thimerosal was removed from vaccines in 1992. This evidence strongly suggested that Thimerosal was not linked to autism.

However, the IOM did not properly account for confounding factors in the data such as 1) the counting of both outpatient and inpatient cases after 1995 that expanded the number of children known to be affected, 2) the adopted use of a broader definition of autism in 1994, and 3) the exclusion prior to 1992 of the largest Danish clinic treating autism which cared for 20 percent of autism cases.

More: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017206443

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #201)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:28 PM

204. I should say, I was briefly on the anti-thimerosal bandwagon

but then the facts led elsewhere. The increase in autism rates, combined with a decrease in thimerosal use was one compelling statistic. Other factors are the lack of any correlation between autism rates and environmental mercury contamination, and a lack of correlation between the consumption of mercury-contaminated seafood (common in some regional diets) and autism rates.

The facts lead to other explanations, and the science moved on some years ago.

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #204)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 12:18 AM

205. I cannot imagine disregarding the informed& unequivocal views of CDC scientist Dr William W Thompson

TRANSCRIPT OF VIDEO ABOVE:

"You know in the United States the only vaccine it's still in is for pregnant women.

I can say confidently I do think Thimerosal causes tics so I don't know why they still give it to pregnant women, like that's the last person I would give mercury to.

Thimerosal from vaccines causes tics. You start a campaign and you just make that your mantra.

Do you think a pregnant mother would want to take a vaccine that they knew caused tics? Absolutely not! I would never give my wife a vaccine that I thought caused tics.

I can say tics are four times more prevalent in kids with autism.

There is biologic plausibility right now to say that Thimerosal causes autism-like features."

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #205)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 12:28 AM

206. I cannot imagine ignoring all the science leading away from the thimerosal/autism theory

...but if you are simply arguing that thimerosal isn't safe for pregnant women, in spite of the science, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and probably agree. And if I had a pregnant spouse I'd be fine with her not getting a flu shot, but taking ordinary precautions against exposure instead.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #205)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 11:51 AM

207. CORRECTION: 'Dr. William Thompson, a senior CDC researcher' 'senior scientist Dr. William Thompson'

http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/09/the-vaccine-truth-loudly-whistled-.html

The Vaccine Truth Loudly Whistled

By Teresa Conrick
September 23, 2014


The graphics reposted upthread are from @JBHandleyjr. The account was completely deleted yesterday. Other material is available here:


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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #207)


Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #198)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 07:59 PM

203. Ageofautism...



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Mon Sep 22, 2014, 07:49 PM

202. Extra butter on mine, please.

 

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 11:58 AM

208. I wonder if he'd recommend "no" to an ebola vaccine to those in Liberia?

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Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #208)

Sat Oct 4, 2014, 05:55 PM

250. Good question...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 12:12 PM

209. Does smearing a good Democrat really have anything to do with autism?

The reason I ask:

RFK, Jr. is no ''asshat.'' Why would you call a liberal Democrat that and the other things, SidDithers of DU?

I heard him speak at my alma mater, Wayne State University in 2007.



Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. called George W Bush "that sonofabitch" and said the guy was a crook, turning over the government to the lobbyists and gangsters who've emptied our Treasury, polluted our water, land, air and children, and used humanity as cannon fodder and slave labor.

He also pegged ABCNNBCBSFoxNoiseNutwork for what they are. Among other things, he called Antonin Scalia the son of a Nazi and explained why. I would've taken notes, but I wanted to hear everything the guy said.

The writings of law professor Donald E. Wilkes are a good place to start learning about why RFK Jr. matters:



DESTINY BETRAYED:
THE CIA, OSWALD, AND
THE JFK ASSASSINATION


Published in Flagpole Magazine, p. 8 (Dec. 7, 2005).

Author: Donald E. Wilkes, Jr., Professor of Law, University of Georgia School of Law.

In place of the strong sense of faith in man and mankind, we now have a heavy feeling of a failed mission, of destiny betrayed and unfulfilled. – Rav Alex Israel

The deepest cover story of the CIA is that it is an intelligence organization. – Bulletin of the Federation of American Scientists


Today, 42 years after President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963, few responsible researchers who have studied JFK’s murder accept the Warren Commission’s main conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone, committed the crime. (The Warren Commission was the body appointed by President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the Kennedy assassination; it released its Report in September 1964.) As these researchers have shown again and again in scores of books and articles, evidence available to the Commission but improperly evaluated, erroneously rejected, or simply not pursued by that body, together with new evidence unavailable to the Commission, discredits the principal finding of the Warren Report. JFK’s death was, these researchers believe, carried out by a conspiracy; it was not the act of a lone assassin. Different researchers, however, have different conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists also disagree about Oswald: some maintain that he was simply one of the conspirators; others claim that, while he was a member of the conspiracy, he was also unknowingly a dupe of the other conspirators who intended for him to be the fall guy; and still other theorists think that Oswald was a wholly innocent person set up by the conspirators as the patsy. Furthermore, the theorists who regard Oswald as a conspirator disagree as to whether he fired any of the shots in Dealey Plaza.

SNIP...

The theory that JFK’s murder was engineered by the CIA (or by persons affiliated with the CIA), and that the CIA covered up its connections to the murder, warrants serious consideration and should not be peremptorily rejected. In the 1960’s the CIA more resembled an untouchable crime syndicate than a legitimate government entity. Lavishly but secretly funded, unrestrained by public opinion, cloaked in secrecy, conducting whatever foreign or domestic clandestine operations it wished without regard to laws or morals, and specializing in deception, falsification, and mystification, the CIA was riddled at all levels with ruthless, cynical officials and employees who believed that they were above the law, that any means were justified to accomplish the goals they set for themselves, and that insofar as their surreptitious activities were concerned it was justifiable to lie with impunity to anyone, even presidents and legislators. Many of these individuals, thinking he was soft on communism, that he would reduce the size of the military industrial complex, and that he was to blame for the Bay of Pigs disaster (the failed CIA-sponsored invasion of Cuba in 1961), hated and despised Kennedy. The CIA routinely circumvented and defied attempts by the executive and legislative branches to monitor its activities. It was involved in innumerable unlawful or outrageous activities. It illegally opened the mail of Americans. It interfered with free elections in foreign countries and arranged to destabilize or overthrow the governments of other countries. It plotted the murder of various foreign leaders. It arranged to hire the Mafia to help with some of these proposed murder plots. It unlawfully stored–in quantities, UGA political science professor Loch K. Johnson notes, sufficient “to destroy the population of a small city”–exotic toxic agents, including cobra venom and shellfish toxin, for the purpose of committing murders. It manufactured and used sinister lethal weaponry, including what Prof. Johnson calls “the ultimate murder weapon,” an electric handgun (the CIA called it a “noise-free disseminator”) with a telescopic sight which could noiselessly and accurately fire poison-tipped darts (the CIA called them “nondiscernible microbioinoculators”) up to a distance of 250 feet. It undoubtedly carried out multiple secret murders and other heinous crimes which it successfully kept hidden. Furthermore, it is now firmly established that after the JFK assassination the CIA simultaneously lied to, and withheld important information from, the Warren Commission.

One of the first serious investigators to raise credible claims that CIA operatives or ex-CIA operatives were involved in the JFK assassination was Jim Garrison, who served as the district attorney in New Orleans, Louisiana from 1962 to 1974. (A brief chronology of Garrison’s life and investigation is set forth at the end of this article.) Garrison and his office investigated the assassination for about five years, from late 1966 until early 1971. His investigation led Garrison to believe that, regardless of whoever actually fired the shots in Dealey Plaza, the assassination was the result of a plot hatched in New Orleans by persons with CIA connections. Furthermore, Garrison concluded, following the assassination the CIA engaged in a coverup to protect itself and the assassins. Garrison brought to trial the only criminal proceeding in which someone was actually charged with involvement in the JFK assassination. Garrison wrote two important books, the first published in 1970, the second in 1988, in which he recounted his investigation and shared the important new facts he had discovered.

In the words of journalist Fred Powledge, who wrote a magazine article on Garrison published in 1967, Garrison thought that “the assassins were CIA employees who were angered at President Kennedy’s posture on Cuba following the Bay of Pigs disaster, and that the CIA was frustrating his investigation, although the agency knew the whereabouts of the assassins.” Philosophy professor Richard H. Popkin, in another magazine article published in 1967, summarized Garrison’s views on the assassination as follows: “The thesis Garrison has set forth is that a group of New Orleans-based, anti-Castroites, supported and/or encouraged by the CIA in their anti-Castro activities, in the late summer or early fall of 1963 conspired to assassinate John F. Kennedy. This group, according to Garrison, included (Clay) Shaw, (David) Ferrie, (Lee Harvey) Oswald, ... and others, including Cuban exiles and American anti-Castroites.... (T)heir plan was executed in Dallas on November 22, 1963. At least part of their motivation ... was their reaction to Kennedy’s decisions at the Bay of Pigs and the changes in U.S. policy toward Cuba following the missiles crisis of 1962.”

In a 1967 interview, Garrison himself phrased his basic conclusions this way: “(A) number of the men who killed the President were former employees of the CIA involved in its anti-Castro underground activities in and around New Orleans.... We must assume that the plotters were acting on their own rather than on CIA orders when they killed the President. As far as we been able to determine, they were not on the pay of the CIA at the time of the assassination.... The CIA could not face up to the American people and admit that its former employees had conspired to assassinate the President, so from the moment Kennedy’s heart stopped beating, the Agency attempted to sweep the whole conspiracy under the rug.... In this respect, it has become an accessory after the fact in the assassination.”

CONTINUED...

http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/jfk_22destiny.html



Prof. Wilkes' bibiliography is an excellent survey of what was available at the time of his writing that article. Several new works have been published since. I'll try to get back and recommend them to you when I get the time. In the meantime, here's why it's important to hear RFK, Jr. rather than "think" asshat:



Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy believed President Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy.

That's what his son and daughter, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and Rory Kennedy, reported in an interview with Charlie Rose last weekend in Dallas.



It's also what author and Salon founder David Talbot reported, when he called Robert F. Kennedy the "first conspiracy theorist" in 2007.

Here's why the news from Robert and Rory is so important:

The important issue is that he and his sister reported their father -- the president's principal counselor and the nation's chief law enforcement officer -- privately thought a conspiracy was behind the assassination of President Kennedy.

RFK called the Warren Commission report "shoddy workmanship."

Attorney General Kennedy knew about the Ruby-Mafia connections immediately, which is vital when considering the Mafia were hired by Allen Dulles and the CIA during Eisenhower's administration to murder Fidel Castro -- an operation which the CIA failed to inform the president and attorney general.

The interview with Charlie Rose marked the first time members of the immediate Kennedy family have voiced the attorney general's doubts about the Warren Commission and its lone gunman theory.


Those are the facts we learned Friday, Jan. 11, 2013. It's called history.



Remember: Like medical researchers discerning truth from falsehood for the sake of the pharmaceutical industries, remember that readers are leaders -- especially when it comes to politics in and age of NSA/CIA/ABCNNBCBSFauxNoiseNutworks. Those who believe Corporate McPravda tend to go along with the illegal, immoral, disastrous and endless wars of choice in Iraq and Vietnam and wherever else there's money to be had.



Also remember: RFK, Jr'.s father and his uncle stood against all that.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #209)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 12:21 PM

210. What do the assassinations of RFK and JFK have to do...

with the current views of anti-vax asshat RFK Jr.?

Keep tugging that forelock, octafish of DU.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #210)

Tue Sep 23, 2014, 01:07 PM

211. It has to do with character assassination.

All it takes is one word, like "drinker."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022146890#post82


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Response to Octafish (Reply #211)

Wed Sep 24, 2014, 01:18 PM

212. ...



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #212)

Wed Sep 24, 2014, 01:24 PM

213. You better believe it! n/t

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Response to zappaman (Reply #213)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 10:45 AM

216. Tag Team is so second banana, Dude.

Reminds me of having to bring someone else along to a fight, just in case -- like when Bush brought Cheney along to make sure their stories were straight before the 9/11 Commission.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #216)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 12:13 PM

217. Love ya, buddy!

Don't ever change!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #217)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 01:14 PM

218. Hope for change.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #218)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 01:41 PM

219. I agree with you that RFK Jr is quite the asshat

and saying he is above reproach for his anti-vaxx nonsense is hero worship at it's finest.
So I join you in kicking this important thread about this dangerous, misguided asshat of a man.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #219)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 02:04 PM

220. What's it called when you put words in somebody else's mouth?

"Propaganda" is one name for it.

Why do you do it? Years of your life.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #220)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 02:04 PM

221. Kick. n/t

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Response to zappaman (Reply #221)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 02:07 PM

223. Good.

I like what I write.

If I wrote what you wrote, no.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #223)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 02:08 PM

224. I join you again in the kick!

you crack me up!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #224)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 02:17 PM

225. Years of your life.

Must be gratifying.

Bloviate all you want, Octafish

I was talking about you record of futility when it comes to the JFK assassination.
You can add UFOs to that as well and what ever other wacky CTs you have embraced.
How much longer do we have to wait for you to take your JFK evidence public?
I can't wait to find out, after 46 years, who really killed JFK.

-- zappaman, Sept. 27, 2010

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x296892

Gee. That was almost four years ago to the day. How's that for a coincidence, zappaman?

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Response to Octafish (Reply #225)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 04:35 PM

230. Coincidence? I think not!

Thank you for searching me....again!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #230)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 04:42 PM

231. Why do you devote years of your life minding what I write?

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Response to Octafish (Reply #231)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 04:49 PM

232. Why do you devote years of your life minding what I write?

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Response to zappaman (Reply #232)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 05:51 PM

235. Do you suffer from echolalia?

I don't remember ever replying to a thread you started, so it's not the same thing as what you do, is it?

Years of your life.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #235)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 06:02 PM

236. Really?

Some faulty memory you got there, Brad.
Seems to always happen when you get caught making shit up.
Weird how that works, eh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024326851#post38

Years of your life, dude.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #236)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 06:12 PM

237. Gosh. I guess that makes the rest of your posts really something.

Telling people not to worry about Fukushima was worth responding to, seeing how it is a peril to public health.



So. How's your journal?

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Response to Octafish (Reply #237)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 06:16 PM

238. I love that meme!

It laughs at people who blame the BFEE for everything!
Sorry it went over your head.

But, now you are distracting cuz I caught you in another lie?
Oh right...you "don't remember."
Just like this guy on the stand for Iran-Contra.
Well, I guess you have something in common!



Keeping tugging at that forelock!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #238)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 06:26 PM

239. Odd you should mention the BFEE.

I don't understand why you denigrate me for writing about the BFEE, zappaman. Their trail as warmonger-banksters goes back at least to war profiteering during World War I, when Samuel Prescott Bush ran Remington selling rifles to both sides. Before that, there's evidence their ancestors were slave holders.

I've talked about his son, Prescott Sheldon Bush; grandson, George Herbert Walker Bush; and great-grandsons, George Walker Bush, John Ellis (Jeb) Bush, and Neil Mallon Bush. From what you've written about the BFEE, you seem to take their side, which is odd for someone interested in supporting democracy.

We've talked about it before, yet you keep repeating your position in their defense, no coincidence, just a pattern.

But this is the thing about the BFEE that has gotten a lot of hits on GOOGLE over the years. Poppy Bush was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963:

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Response to Octafish (Reply #239)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 06:28 PM

240. Yeah.

So?

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #212)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 10:44 AM

215. There aren't enough smilies to cover up how un-democratic character assassination is.

If you disagree with someone, say so and state why. No need to impugn his or her character, especially a good Democrat.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #215)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 06:33 PM

241. Sure is.

 

Maybe you should stop doing it.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #241)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 07:11 PM

242. Show where.

Otherwise, don't say I do.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #242)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 07:18 PM

243. If I posted every single time you tried suggesting a DUer was a paid operative

 

of (insert corporation/agency here), this post would be far too long.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #243)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 07:29 PM

244. It's one of his signature moves

"Are you paid by the post or are you paid by the hour, zappaman?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2261046

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Response to zappaman (Reply #244)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 07:38 PM

245. Years of your life.

And in all that time you never showed where I was wrong about the BFEE.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #245)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 08:06 PM

246. Found a hair in my soup the other day.



BTW, nothing to say about being caught in a lie?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5585489

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Response to Octafish (Reply #215)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 08:24 PM

247. But it's what your hero engages in...

when he calls Dr. Paul Offit a "biostitute" and says “I would do a lot to see Paul Offit and all these good people behind bars,”

Paul Offit - Paul A. Offit is an American pediatrician specializing in infectious diseases and an expert on vaccines, immunology, and virology. He is the co-inventor of a rotavirus vaccine that has been credited with saving hundreds of lives every day. Offit is the Maurice R. Hilleman Professor of Vaccinology, Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania, Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases, and the Director of the Vaccine Education Center at The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.


You worship the wrong heroes, octafish of DU. It's scientists and physicians like Paul Offit, Jonas Salk and Maurice Hilleman who are the ones saving lives. It's asshats like RFK Jr, Jenny McCarthy and Andrew Wakefield. who's idiocy is leading to avoidable illness and death.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 02:27 PM

226. Glad I'm catching up on OUTLANDER instead!!!!!!

I'd rather be 200 years in the past in Scotland than listen to that guy. He's just full of wrong-headed ideas. I also don't like the way he thoroughly trashed his dead wife (apparently she was beating him up before they even married, so he claimed, which makes one wonder why he divorced his first wife and married her).

That kind of thing--even if the dead woman was an emotional and mental health wreck-- says a lot to me about people's character, and he failed the test as far as I'm concerned. His kids have to live with that "version" of their mother being out there for public consumption.

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 02:51 PM

227. RFK, Jr. has been a champion for the environment and other liberal causes.

 

Are you so inarticulate that you must smear him with profane, child-like names?

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Response to 3rdwaydem (Reply #227)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 02:55 PM

228. When it comes to vaccines he's an asshat.

His goodness for other causes doesn't erase his complete failure on vaccines.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #228)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 04:52 PM

233. Funny how the posters who cry "hero worship" anytime anything positive is said about Obama

are the same ones saying we mustn't point out that when it comes to this nonsense, RFK Jr is an asshat of epic proportions.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #233)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 09:34 PM

249. Honest question: have you read the first page of his 2005 article?

You don't have to answer because I know that if you had, you wouldn't be carrying on like this. Please consider informing yourself:

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF

It's not a happy, tale but it needs to be told, and unfortunately this is about the only place you're going to hear it.

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Response to 3rdwaydem (Reply #227)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 04:58 PM

234. +1

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Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Sat Oct 4, 2014, 06:24 PM

251. I still admire RFK, Jr., but on this one issue, we part ways. n/t

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