We don't know if Zimmerman is guilty

[Vattel]

Is George Zimmerman guilty of an unlawful homicide? I want to suggest that the average person doesn’t know the answer to this question. If (1) Zimmerman’s actions prior to fighting with Martin were lawful, (2) Martin nevertheless initiated the violence by punching Zimmerman, and (3) Zimmerman, reasonably fearing death or even great bodily harm, killed Martin, then in all probability Zimmerman’s taking Martin’s life was justifiable under the law.

We (average folks) don’t know if (1)-(3) are true, and so we don’t know if Zimmerman committed a crime. I haven’t read anything to suggest that Zimmerman’s actions prior to the violence were unlawful. And we certainly don’t know who initiated the violence. And how can we in our armchairs be certain that Zimmerman didn’t reasonably fear great bodily harm?

Whether Zimmerman is convicted of a crime may well depend on witness testimony and on whether the screams for help in the 911 recording can be established to be Martin’s. But we don’t know how all of that will play out.

Edited to add: My guess is that Zimmerman is guilty of a crime. Just trying to keep the discussion reasonable.

[uppityperson]

1. We also know that Zimmy was told to not follow Trayvon, but he did. At what point did it become

stalking?

No, we don't know everything. But I know enough to say Zimmy was dead wrong in what he did and Trayvon is just dead. It will be interesting to see what else comes out.

[Vattel]

11. We don't even know that to any high degree of certainty.

People infer that he ignored the suggestion not to continue following Martin from the fact that he changed his mind about meeting the police at the mailboxes and asked that they call him when they arrive.

[uppityperson]

27. Was he killed at his truck? If not, then he followed Trayvon.

[Life Long Dem]

19. How do you know he continued to follow the boy?

Just a simple question. How do you know? Because of his breathing? Why can't he breath heavy when walking back?

[TorchTheWitch]

37. timeline of events by witnesses

Who saw what and where along with where the shooting took place indicates that neither Martin nor Zimmerman did any going back from their directions of travel.

[Life Long Dem]

61. So where was Zimmerman talking to dispatch in relation to the death?

I don't think there is a witness saying where Zimmerman was when dispatch told him not to follow. Are we going by what Zimmerman may have said on his location? Because that may not be a good idea.

[eqfan592]

70. Actually, he wasn't told that.

He was told that they "didn't need him to do that." But was not specifically instructed not too.

Mind you, I think he's guilty as hell, but I also think that now that he's been charged, he deserves a fair trial and the legal presumption of innocence until guilt is proven. And i also think that it's important we keep our facts straight as much as possible.

[Oneka]

73. +1

Witch hunts are ugly things, no matter who is doing the hunting.

[Freddie Stubbs]

82. Does a 911 dispatcher have the legal authority to give orders to people?

[obamanut2012]

84. In some jurisdictions, yes

I don't know about Florida.

[ermoore]

96. No.

No. 911 dispatcher has no legal authority. At least not Florida. Probably not anywhere.

[jwirr]

105. In MN a 911 dispatcher is a police person.

[shimonitanegi]

98. I don't know the answer

but almost all people will follow the order.
It is a matter of common sense rather than legal obligation.

[HockeyMom]

2. Martin has the right to stand his ground too

To not be pursued, confronted, by a civilian with a gun. That law is supposed to apply, to all whether they are gun owners or not.

[Cosmocat]

23. Boy, that is a good point

there is no debating that in this situation, the guy walking around minding his own business had more right to "stand his ground" than the clown stalking him. But, because the clown had a gun, his rights trump the kid who gets killed.

Makes perfect sense.

[eqfan592]

72. +1000 for the first sentence. -1000 for the rest (which is garbage).

[guitar man]

38. +1000

That's what I've been thinking all along. Even if Trayvon did wallop him, he may well have been within his rights and the one actually covered by the law.

[arely staircase]

56. yes

that seems so lost in all of this

[SATIRical]

80. Actually, when you are in public

you do not have the right to not be followed unless a judge has said so.

And we don't know who did the confronting.

Finally, it was a concealed weapon so there is no indication Martin knew Zim had a gun until he pulled it. And we don't know when that happened.

Personally, I think Zin was racist and wrong. But my feelings don't change the facts.

[HockeyMom]

81. As a female, that is dispicable

So any strange man has the right to follow me on a public street for whatever reason he wants? Can you say stalking? Oh, better get my CCW so I can shot a stranger who is following me!!!!!

[SATIRical]

83. Actually, yes, he can

If it is a series of occurrences or a pattern, then it can be stalking. However, for a single instance, it is legal.

Ever wonder why most paparazzi aren't charged with stalking?

[obamanut2012]

86. It's not legally stalking, but they can't do that

I've called the cops on a man who was doing that to me once, and they informed him that was considered assault and misdemeanor harassment. The cop told me assault is the intent of harm, battery is the physical part of harm. So, maybe in some areas it's okay, but not in all areas, and also not depending on the situation.

I can say that I learned in my CCW class that if that happened, and the person refused to halt and still kept coming towards me, I would legally have the right to shoot (I'm a woman).

[vaberella]

90. Yes we do. Zimmerman cut him off at an impasse by Zimmerman's testimony.

Zimmerman confronted and followed Martin.

[SATIRical]

91. Where is there evidence Zimmerman did the confronting?

That's what I figured happened but I haven't seen any evidence showing who confronted who.

[Vincardog]

3. And we certainly don’t know who initiated the violence? Please child, Bless your heart, no one is

that slow.

[Politicalboi]

4. We do know

That Zimmerman had NO right to chase Trayvon. Zimmerman wasn't a Neighborhood watch team captain. Zimmerman was told to stop chasing Trayvon. I trust what Trayvon Martin's girlfriend said about Zimmerman asking Trayvon "Why are you here", and then the sound of being pushed, and the phone going dead. If Trayvon kicked the shit out of Zimmerman, it still wouldn't be self defense. Zimmerman started this, and Zimmerman is responsible for the outcome. It's too bad Zimmerman can't be charged with first degree murder, because that is what this is IMO.

[eqfan592]

74. No, he was NOT told to stop following Martin.

I'm sorry, but that is simply a purely false statement. He was advised that they didn't need him to follow, but he was not instructed not to. We really need to try to keep our heads on straight here folks, and when I keep seeing the same falsehood repeated over and over that's a sign that we are failing in that area.

[MineralMan]

5. We have a pretty damned good idea.

Let's have the trial. Then come back and we'll discuss your theories, if you're still here.

[Vattel]

9. What theories?

[tkmorris]

99. And if you are still here as well

Just sayin'.

[livetohike]

6. Why was Zimmerman outside of his car?

He obviously got outside of his car for some reason. Why did he follow Trayvon? Why did he call 9-1-1? What was his intent on following Trayvon? Why did he continue to follow Trayvon despite being told not to?

If you were a 17 year old and a man whom you didn't know was following you, what would you do?

Maybe Zimmerman got out of his car and showed his gun, pointed it at Trayvon and the 17 year old tackled him to prevent him from firing at him. Running away would not have stopped the shot.

I think Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter, therefore, with my preconceived notion of his guilt, I would not make a good juror.

[Vattel]

16. Based on the 911 call, it seems likely he followed him because he thought he might be a burglar.

I agree that maybe he pulled his gun on Martin and Martin tried to defend himself. There are plenty of maybes in this case.

[randome]

7. Zimmerman thinks he's guilty.

That's why he's not cooperating with his attorneys and has gone into hiding.

[lame54]

8. But, there is definitely enough for an arrest...

People have been arrested for far less

[Vattel]

12. I agree.

[Logical]

10. I think Zimmerman initiated the confrontation and tried to detain Trayvon.Which makes him the....

initiator, which means he cannot, once things went south, decide to use deadly force when he caused the deadly force.

[Vattel]

13. Why do you think that he tried to detain Martin? Are you guessing?

[Logical]

15. Because Zimmerman, based on past things he has done, seems like a....

"Cop Want to be". I think he tried to detain Trayvon because the police were on the way and his saying "These assholes always get away" comment makes it seem like he was going to stop this one from getting away.

[Vattel]

17. That's a pretty thin basis for your conclusion.

But you might be right. I don't know.

[Logical]

18. Well, I don't either. The issue is that without witnesses we only have Zimmermans story to go on.

[K Gardner]

14. Why have you been defending him since this whole thing started? Does it do something for you?

Now, the parents have not even been able to breathe a sigh of relief that their son's killer has been arrested, and you're already posting your Armchair Thread. Are you going to be the voice of Zimmerman for the duration of the trial? Just curious. You seem to have a vested interest.

[The Magistrate]

21. His Vested Interest, Ma'am, Is Still Being Able To Carry a Gun In Hope Of Getting To Shoot Someone

It worries him to think living out this fantasy might land him in a penitentiary, as it is most likely to do with Zimmerman....

[Vattel]

25. Exactly the sort of pretending to know things that bothers me.

[The Magistrate]

28. You Act, Sir, Like You Have No Record Of Posting Here....

[K Gardner]

31. +1000

[Vattel]

34. Lol, so you divine my gun fantasies from earlier posts.

Self-delude much?

[The Magistrate]

43. Words Are A Window To the Soul, Sir

For those of you who have such things, anyway....

[Vattel]

47. Wow, what an incredible thing to say.

[The Magistrate]

54. Here Till Thursday, Sir: Be Sure And Try the Veal....

[L0oniX]

79. Juror #4 (me) voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Geeze ...call the Wambulance

heh ...someone alerted on you.

[Vattel]

22. I am not really defending him since for all I know he is a murderer.

I have posted a lot on this because I have been appalled by the response to this case on this site and in much of the media. I like to think that we on the left aren't as dumb as the crazies on the right. People claim to know that he faked his injuries, that he said "coon" and not "punk," that he is 250 pounds, that his father used his influence to keep him from being charged, that if he had shot Martin when Martin was on top of him he would have been covered by blood, etc. I guess I think people shouldn't pretend to know things they don't know.

[K Gardner]

33. I think your Gig is up here, Vattel. Seriously. You can probably stop now. n/t

[obamanut2012]

89. I know he didn't have a broken nose

I know his head wasn't repeatedly slammed on concrete. I know he was given deferential treatment by the authorities. I know said authorities treated Trayvon like a gangsta killer. I know Zimmerman followed and harassed Martin, and was armed with a pistol, whereas Martin was armed with Arizona Tea and Skittles. I know his killing, and probable murder, has unleashed appalling public racism.

I know I own several firearms and hold a CCW, and occasionally conceal carry my pistol, and know what Zimmerman did was a felony.

I know a few other things, too, including I'm not on Zimmy's jury and never will be, so I can speculate all I want to.

[Ineeda]

24. I've wondered the same thing.

Without exception (that I've seen anyway) every post is oddly in defense of him. Highly suspect.

[Vattel]

52. Not every post anyway.

I did point out to someone that the voice analysis did not conclude that it was only a 52 per cent chance that the screams were not Zimmerman's. It found a 52% match which according to the analyst means that it is reasonably certain that the screams were nto Zimmerman's.

I also agreed that the demonization of Martin in the press was disgusting.

[Aerows]

20. In my view

The second Zimmerman chased after Martin by leaving his vehicle against 911 advice, he became the aggressor. You don't chase after people who aren't doing anything wrong with a gun and have it be anything but murder.

I don't give a shit if Trayvon insulted George's mother, punched him in the mouth, and called him names - he followed him with a gun and shot him. Zimmerman elected himself as judge, jury and executioner without even the slightest bit of evidence of wrongdoing.

[bigapple]

29. but

since when is following anyone illegal?

If Trayvon punched him in the mouth then Trayvon initiated the violence.

[Aerows]

35. But that isn't what happened

You cannot use deadly force against someone after you have stalked them, and that's what Zimmerman did. I would have defended myself, too, at that point.

Zimmerman went looking for trouble, and he found it. Sadly, that ended with a young man's life being cut short. Trayvon was a human being, let's not forget that.

[bigapple]

40. ok

following is not the same as stalking.

If someone followed you, do you think you are justified in punching that person?

[Aerows]

53. It depends

I'll defend myself. If someone is following me on the way home, and is persistent, then I'll assume it's time to be cautious. That's just the way it is. If "leave me alone" doesn't work, I'll likely and rightly believe that I'm being stalked.

[HooptieWagon]

58. Mindset.

We know from the girlfriend that Trayvon was aware of a strange man following him. Since the route he was taking led to his fathers house, it is a reasonable conclusion to assume he would seek safety there. IOW, his mindset would be to head home, not to double back and assault GZ. On the other hand, we know from GZs statements to 911 dispatch, and the route he took from his truck to the scene of the killing, that his mindset was to not let a black kid he assumed was a burgler to get away.

[The Straight Story]

26. Who initiated contact and who continued it after 9/11 asked him to not to pursue?

I did 5 years in security and some of that as a deputy. As a security guard you do not pursue or touch people, you observe and report.

Zimmeran escalated this whole situation and now wants to play the victim.

Don't play cop.

[Aerows]

36. Damn straight

Zimmerman was the one who escalated this entire incident.

[JI7]

30. this type of shit reminds me of wingnuts saying about evolution and other things

"how do you know were you there".

we have a list of fucking lies from the Zimmerman side from having his nose broken, trayvon saying "you got me" and other crap.

we have proof the thug zimmerman followed Trayvon.

trayvon's side is mostly consistent with what his girlfriend said, his going home to his house.

[JI7]

32. WHy did Zimmerman lie about the broken nose and claiming he was the one screaming help

[Vattel]

39. How do you know his nose was not broken?

Did you examine it?

[JI7]

44. lack of medical records and the video shortly after the shooting

[Oneka]

68. Medical records,

if there are any, will be brought forth as evidence in court, till then "we" all have no idea whether Zimmerman's nose was broken.
The fact that the general public has not seen medical records , means exactly nothing. I'm sure the prosecutors have access to this information if it exists.

[RebelOne]

62. Look \at his mug shot shown in another thread. Nose looks OK, n't

[Oneka]

69. I don't beleive that

that mugshot was taken after his trip to the police station on the night of the shooting.
If reports are accurate, it was taken several years ago after a different arrest.

[K Gardner]

42. Please PLEASE stop responding to him. It's what he wants. n/t

[Vattel]

48. Actually I find it very unpleasant.

[countingbluecars]

41. The special prosecutor must know the answer

to your question. She has the facts and evidence. The average person can draw some conclusions based on her charge of second degree murder.

[HangOnKids]

46. ^^^^THIS^^^^

BOOM!

[Vattel]

49. I agree that this changes things.

Not that prosecutors are infallible, but at this stage of the game my guess would be that Zimmerman did commit a crime.

[orpupilofnature57]

77. Impersonating an officer of the law ...

like Stalking ,disregarding Real law enforcement , and Murder is a crime ,Just like it was 43 days ago.

[MNBrewer]

45. Hopefully the Zimmerman Lynch Mob will calm down now and let the wheels of justice turn.

[The Magistrate]

50. There Is And Has Been No Lynch Mob, Fella

People wanted arrest and trial, and are confident of conviction on the facts as known.

[MNBrewer]

102. I'm honored to have disturbed you from your constant and supercilious usage of "Sir"

[got root]

64. the only 'lynching' that actually has gone on, was perpetrated against an innocent kid.

to even use that term, 'lynching', considering the circumstances, is very revealing.

[MNBrewer]

103. So you say.

[orpupilofnature57]

78. Like in the Casey Anthony trial ?

Florida ,land of the 2000 elections , Stand your ground for antebellum.

[Raine]

51. That's your opinion, mine is different nt

[polly7]

55. Guilty as hell.

He stalked and killed a lone, probably terrified, unarmed child doing no wrong to anyone. I don't believe in the presumption of innocence when guilt is staring you right in the face. Of course, I'd never be on a jury either.

[coalition_unwilling]

88. Um, the 'presumption of innocence' is an all-or-nothing

proposition. You don't get to choose when you will 'believe in the presumption of innocence.'

[polly7]

92. And that's exactly why I'll never be a lawyer, a judge ..... or probably

ever even serve on a jury . It's just my personal opinion, however legally wrong it may be.

[coalition_unwilling]

93. No harm in being honest. But to say you don't believe in the presumption of

innocence raises as many questions as it lays to rest. To wit, if you do not believe in the presumption of innocence -- that the burden of proof rests with the state to prove its charges beyond a reasonable doubt and that, until it does so, the defendant is presumed to be as innocent as the driven snow before the law -- do you bow down before the authority of the state such that, when it makes an accusation, you tend to believe the accusation? In short, do you believe persons accused are guilty until they prove themselves innocent (the presumption of guilt, I guess one could call it)?

[polly7]

94. No ........ I'm usually the last to be convinced someone is guilty of something that

will ruin the rest of his / her life.

Zimmerman admitted shooting an unarmed teen after being told not to follow him. That is all the proof I need to personally believe he is guilty of unlawfully killing Trayvon Martin. What else would you like me to say?

This is my opinion ........ and wth are you talking about 'bowing down' before anyone? No, not at all. I just occasionally use common sense to come up with my own personal opinion, sorry it seems to bother you so much. Now get off my case.

[coalition_unwilling]

97. Sorry, my rhetoric seems to have gotten the better of me tonight. Like all

of us, I too am working through this issue of presuming Zimmerman innocent even as I too heard what you heard, i.e., his admission. I think the point I was trying to make originally is valid though. To wit, the presumption of innocence applies to all or to none and is not a principle we get to apply to suit our personal whims.

Small side note: the dispatcher told Zimmerman that law enforcement didn't 'need' Z to follow Martin. That's different than ordering Z not to follow M, even though I don't think it is really germane to the issue at hand.

[polly7]

100. Np.

Yes ..."the presumption of innocence applies to all or to none and is not a principle we get to apply to suit our personal whims. ..." Absolutely, and I'm grateful for Zimmerman and anyone else that legally this is the case and the most important thing to remember. It would be horrible otherwise. For Trayvon Martin's family ... I just hope for whatever justice a judge or jury decides is fair.

[spanone]

57. the prosecutors think they know.

otherwise, they wouldn't have brought charges.

[Egalitarian Thug]

59. Just saying, in all fairness. blah, blah, blah.

Sure you are.

[HockeyMom]

60. What if Trayvon were female instead?

A 17 year old girl is walking around a development where she is visiting friends. Some guy starts following her in a car. She starts walking faster to get away from him. He gets out of his car and starts following her on foot. What would this teenage girl think? This man reaches up to her and starts taunting and making lewd remarks to her as he approaches. The girl gives him a swift kick to the groin. Now, remember she attacks HIM first. He grabs her but she continues kicking him. Can he claim SYG and shoot her? After all, she attacked him first?

If you reverse the genders in this case, maybe you understand the situation better. I will admit, though, that it really shouldn't matter. A teenage boy has just as much of a right to protect himself as a teenage girl.

[bigapple]

95. was she

slamming his head on the concrete as well?

[got root]

63. wrong - he stalked, confronted, and then murdered a teenager

if anyone would have a right to any self defense law, it would be the kid, Martin.

just going by what we know now. in fact, any more details that may or may not come out going forward will only incriminate him further.

you got it backwards.

[slackmaster]

65. I see two separate issues - Whether what Zimmerman did was illegal, and whether it was wrong.

The answer to the second is clear to me - Shooting Trayvon Martin was wrong because it could have been avoided so easily. Zimmerman created a situation that he did not need to create. He provoked a confrontation that did not need to happen. It escalated into a physical fight that should never have happened. He could have, should have, kept his distance and stayed in his car.

People often do things that are legal but would be regarded by most as morally wrong. I think it is conceivable that a jury will determine that the use of deadly force was justifiable under the specific circumstances. What those exact circumstances are, I don't know and may never know. Evidently the prosecutor decided that there is a reasonable chance of getting a conviction, and I have to assume that decision was based on a whole lot of information that I haven't seen or heard in addition to the tons of largely unreliable things that I have seen and heard from various sources.

An acquittal may be the outcome of a trial. Also, I believe that juries in Florida can be given the option of returning a conviction on a lesser offense than the indictment carries. No matter what the outcome of the trial, I will maintain that what George Zimmerman did was wrong - On this my mind is firmly made up.

If he is acquitted, I am open to the idea that an acquittal could indicate a need for clarification in Florida's law on use of deadly force. I think California's laws are much clearer and more reasonable.

OTOH if he is convicted, that would weaken any claims that Florida's Stand Your Ground law is a license to kill at will.

[Vattel]

67. I agree with everything you said.

[got root]

71. This case is a poster child of why SYG has to go

and hopefully there will be enough momentum to carry it through.

we already had self defense laws in this country, SYG is a huge problem, and this case is a textbook example of why it is so.

[sendero]

66. Who said he was?

All we said was that is plenty of evidence to support the fact that this needs to go to trial.

[Zax2me]

75. You are going to be accused of defending him.

Though your points are true.

[shimonitanegi]

76. the sad thing is

some people still refuse to believe Martin's girl friend's account.
She said Zimmerman was following Martin.

[BklnDem75]

85. Zimmerman shot and killed an unarmed kid

The only question is will he get away with it.

[obamanut2012]

87. Since I'm not a potential juror, I will continue to speculate and discuss

Which is what I thought "General Discussion" was for. Do we have a moratorium on the discussion of all outstanding court cases and issues, too? Or just this one?

[cherokeeprogressive]

101. Sure we do.

[Triana]

104. Let me put it this way:

Zimmerman will damn sure get a fairer hearing in the matter than Trayvon Martin did. And there lies the injustice in the whole thing.