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Sun Aug 24, 2014, 09:11 AM

 

Anti-Kiev separatists score major successes against loyal forces near Donetsk.

Last edited Tue Aug 26, 2014, 07:22 AM - Edit history (2)

Though flatly denied by the Poroshenko government in Kiev, reports are surfacing that a major reversal was suffered yesterday and this morning by Ukrainian forces attempting to complete an encirclement of separatist held Donetsk. If true, this would be a serious setback for the Kiev leadership, especially coming as it does just at the eve of Ukraine's "Independence Day" celebrations, and less than a week before an important international conference on Ukraine.



(Reuters)



(Google Maps)


Anti-govt forces ‘circle 1000s of Kiev troops, capture 2 tank battalions’ in E.Ukraine.

After sustained defensive combat against Ukrainian troops in the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk during August, rebels are now reporting of entrapping two large groups of Kiev troops and seizing military hardware in a counteroffensive.

The main headquarters of the DPR army has made a decision to stop operations in small groups and form full-bodied independent military units, the anti-Kiev forces say in a summary of their operations filed on Sunday. They also say they are blocking a large “punitive force” near Alekseevskoe, Blagodatnoe, Voykovsky, Kuteinikovo, Ulyanovskoe and Uspenka.

Some 5,000 Kiev troops “with military hardware” including some 50 tanks, over 200 armored vehicles and 50 artillery rocket systems (including Grad) are trapped in the area, the DPR claims. “DNR’s army has surrounded the staff headquarters of the 8th army corps, 28th and 30th mechanized brigades, 95th air mobile brigade of the army of Ukraine, and also punitive battalions ‘Aidar’, ‘Donbass’ and ‘Shakhtersk’,” the document claims.

2,000 more Kiev troops, armed with 30 tanks, over 80 armored vehicles and more than 60 artillery pieces and mortars, have been engaged and are currently being eliminated near Olenovskoye, the anti-Kiev forces said.

(snip)


Read more at: http://rt.com/news/182404-donetsk-forces-trap-hardware/



Update:


12:16 GMT:

Donetsk self-defense troops have force-marched dozens of Ukrainian prisoners of war along the main street of the rebel-held town in east Ukraine.

People shouted “fascists” at the group, who walked with heads bowed, reports Reuters citing eyewitnesses. The captives were largely unshaven, disheveled and dressed either in combat fatigues or civilian clothes.

Supporters of the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk threw plastic bottles and eggs at the group, which comprised of about 50 captive soldiers, reports the Ukrainian Ostrov news website.

08:50 GMT:

Kiev will spend 40 billion hryvnas (around $3 billion) on weapons and army modernization in 2015-2017, President Poroshenko promised, speaking at the military parade marking Ukraine’s Independence Day. He announced it will be a “modest beginning.”

Poroshenko also said that some of the military personnel engaged in the parade, as well as a portion of the new weaponry on display, will be sent straight to the military zone in the country’s east after the celebration.

(snip)


Read more at: http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/



Update:


See video of the much discussed display of captured Kiev troops by separatists in Donetsk. Note the size of the crowd of civilians which came to see the prisoners. It is far larger than the "few dozen" which Western media is reporting attended the event:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a87_1408887989






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Reply Anti-Kiev separatists score major successes against loyal forces near Donetsk. (Original post)
another_liberal Aug 2014 OP
SidDithers Aug 2014 #1
another_liberal Aug 2014 #2
pinboy3niner Aug 2014 #3
another_liberal Aug 2014 #4
pinboy3niner Aug 2014 #6
another_liberal Aug 2014 #12
IronGate Aug 2014 #51
another_liberal Aug 2014 #99
IronGate Aug 2014 #100
another_liberal Aug 2014 #101
IronGate Aug 2014 #102
another_liberal Aug 2014 #103
IronGate Aug 2014 #104
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #107
another_liberal Aug 2014 #108
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #109
another_liberal Aug 2014 #110
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #111
another_liberal Aug 2014 #112
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #113
another_liberal Aug 2014 #114
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #7
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #9
another_liberal Aug 2014 #13
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #15
sufrommich Aug 2014 #5
another_liberal Aug 2014 #10
mythology Aug 2014 #41
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #8
another_liberal Aug 2014 #11
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #21
another_liberal Aug 2014 #29
nationalize the fed Aug 2014 #14
malaise Aug 2014 #16
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #19
reorg Aug 2014 #42
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #88
reorg Aug 2014 #90
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #94
treestar Aug 2014 #83
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #86
NuclearDem Aug 2014 #43
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #17
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #20
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #22
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #24
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #26
reorg Aug 2014 #39
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #48
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #54
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #55
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #56
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #57
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #58
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #60
socialist_n_TN Aug 2014 #18
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #23
socialist_n_TN Aug 2014 #25
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #27
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #28
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #30
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #31
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #32
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #33
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #34
Throd Aug 2014 #37
pampango Aug 2014 #69
another_liberal Aug 2014 #40
rus084 Aug 2014 #35
another_liberal Aug 2014 #36
Name removed Aug 2014 #46
IronGate Aug 2014 #62
Throd Aug 2014 #38
NuclearDem Aug 2014 #44
Name removed Aug 2014 #45
IronGate Aug 2014 #52
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #47
Name removed Aug 2014 #49
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #50
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #64
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #74
rogerashton Aug 2014 #53
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #59
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #61
IronGate Aug 2014 #63
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #66
IronGate Aug 2014 #68
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #71
IronGate Aug 2014 #75
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #77
IronGate Aug 2014 #80
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #81
IronGate Aug 2014 #82
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #87
Tarheel_Dem Aug 2014 #105
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #79
IronGate Aug 2014 #84
The Magistrate Aug 2014 #89
Tarheel_Dem Aug 2014 #106
LanternWaste Aug 2014 #65
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #67
IronGate Aug 2014 #70
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #73
IronGate Aug 2014 #76
VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #78
Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #72
IronGate Aug 2014 #85
another_liberal Aug 2014 #91
IronGate Aug 2014 #92
another_liberal Aug 2014 #95
IronGate Aug 2014 #97
moondust Aug 2014 #93
another_liberal Aug 2014 #96
IronGate Aug 2014 #98

Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 09:21 AM

1. ... according to RT...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 09:29 AM

2. Amazing . . .

 

Just four more until a total of 33,500, "... according to RT...nt," replies?

Happy Sunday, Sid.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 09:42 AM

3. Amazing...

That RT reported this. They seem to miss the defeats of their favored forces but somehow are always there to report their victories.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 09:55 AM

4. Isn't it great that Western Media never does that?

 

That's especially true of our American news sources, isn't it? You can always trust the likes of CNN, NYT and WSJ to be paragons of truth and justice in reporting. Right?



(sarcasm, of course)

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:10 AM

6. Yes, the free western media certainly have their faults

But knocking them to defend a wholly government-owned and -operated propaganda organ is just and .

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:45 AM

12. Who is defending anyone?

 

I like to quote news sources which provide alternate and otherwise unobtainable, independent points of view. I think it broadens the context of our World generally, and enriches the experience of following the news. That does not, however, mean I support any given source's editorial agenda.

Don't jump to conclusions so quickly, OK?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #12)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 11:22 AM

51. Funny thing is that the only news sources you post are those

 

favorable to either the pro Russian terrorists or Russia itself, I've yet to see a news report from you favorable to Ukraine or unfavorable to Russia or it's lackeys.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #51)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 01:08 PM

99. There are plenty of people beating the war drums already . . .

 

Plus, I despise what they stand for, so why would I want to join them in bashing Russia?

Supporting thuggish billionaire dictators like Poroshenko (not to mention his openly fascist allies) is going to be our country's undoing. I refuse to be a part of that or to speak in favor of it.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #99)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 01:16 PM

100. So, IOW, you can't link to a legitimate source claiming this?

 

Thanks for admitting it.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #100)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 01:38 PM

101. I get it, already . . .

 

Last edited Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:38 PM - Edit history (1)

You don't like RT News; nevertheless, most of the World finds Russia Today quite reliable, and they doubt our mass media in equal measure.

Reflect on that fact for awhile.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #101)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 01:39 PM

102. If RT is so reliable,

 

then why is no other news source, other than pro-Russian sources, reporting this?
This would be a big story, wouldn't it?

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Response to IronGate (Reply #102)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 01:47 PM

103. They have not informed me yet of their reasons . . .

 

Perhaps you should ask them why?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #103)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 02:15 PM

104. So, we're back to where we started?

 

Other than pro-Russian "news sources" no one else is reporting this?

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Response to IronGate (Reply #104)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 02:39 PM

107. Nor Will Any, Sir, Because It Has Not Happened

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014879330#post6

There does seem to have been heavier than usual fighting in the area last weekend. But the scale of combat in this conflict is such that anything involving encirclement of thousands of troops and hundreds of armor vehicles and artillery pieces would produce blaring headlines everywhere, if it actually had occurred.

While neither side can be relied on for accurate information in this, so that people are thrown back on what knowledge and understanding they possess of such matters to assess what is claimed, it does seem that in this instance, at least, the secessionists are being far more hysterical and creative than Kiev in their reports, and an old rule of thumb is that the wilder the claims, the worse the situation of the claimant. People who are doing well, or at least think they are, can afford to come nearer the truth.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #107)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:27 PM

108. Were you there?

 

I wasn't either, so neither of us actually knows what happened last weekend, southeast of Donetsk. That uncertainty is all we know, your assumptions and pronouncements of certainty notwithstanding.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #108)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:33 PM

109. An Event On The Scale Claimed, Sir, Would Be Widely Reported

You sound like a Creationist responding to a reasoned statement concerning evolution of species, and are growing increasingly shrill as you do. Best to acknowledge you got snookered by an enterprising rebel spokesperson, and move on to the next bit of propaganda you want to catapult. No one will think less of you....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #109)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:37 PM

110. Perhaps someday it will be "widely reported" . . .

 

One should wait a bit and see what develops, at least so before he claims to know the absolute truth (by default and omission, no less).

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #110)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:42 PM

111. In That Great Bye And Bye, We Will All Meet In The Sky, Sir

Till then, we use our knowledge of how the world actually works, and our native reason, to pick our way through the various claims of self-interested parties, and reach conclusions about what their tales conceal. As with every human endeavor, some have better aptitude or equipment for the task then others....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #111)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:49 PM

112. Yeah, sure . . .

 

If it's not reported in the Western media, it didn't happen, right? Believe that if you want, be my guest.

Still you might want to have a rationalization or two ready when the sky falls in on that highly questionable belief system.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #112)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:52 PM

113. Hang Tight, Sir: The Bridge Will Be Delivered Any Day Now....

And those Franklin Mint figurines will enable you to retire in comfort.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #113)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:55 PM

114. Dammit!

 

And I was getting all ready to use that same analogy on you next.

Well played, Magi!

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:14 AM

7. You May Not Be Aware, Sir, But That Is Hardly A Rebuttal

When someone says 'A is a liar', replying 'B is a liar' does not establish A is not a liar. In fact, this tu quoque of yours accepts the charge is valid, because what is actually being said is not 'A does not lie' but rather 'B lies too, just like A does...."

If you want to rebut the charge, you need to do at least one of three things:

Demonstrate acknowledged accuracy by A in the past;

Find sources widely acknowledged as credible reporting the same events as A;

Show from your own knowledge of military practice and events and course of the fighting to date that the statements made by A are quite likely to be accurate description of events that could reasonably be expected to have taken place.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:16 AM

9. Have there been any defeats of their (RT.com's) "favored forces"? While I have

 

seen plenty of non-RT.com news reports of Ukrainian National Guard and AF bombing and shelling of separatist residential areas in Lugansk and Donetsk, I don't recall hearing of any 'surrender ceremonies' by the separatists to the putschistas. (The separatists did 'retreat' from Slovyansk, but said retreat was accomplished in good order without any collapse of separatist morale or fighting capabilities.)

If one reads between the lines of non-RT sources, one finds that the Ukrainian regular army has essentially mutinied and is refusing to take part in this civil war, leaving the putschistas to rely upon Banderites recruited into the so-called "National Guard" from the western provinces, making it a true civil war between west\northcentral and east\southeast.

Notice my use of language: the "putschistas" overthrew a democratically elected government using shock troops of fascists (Svoboda) and neo-Nazis (Right Sector). Is it any wonder the regular Ukrainian Army is refusing to participate?

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #9)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:55 AM

13. I think many Western Ukrainians believe it is stupid policy . . .

 

Both to make war on Eastern Ukraine's ethnic Russians, and to act with such violent aggression in doing so that it is bound to frighten and anger the Russian Federation herself.

If put to a vote of the Ukrainian nation as a whole, I bet they would choose that a total ceasefire go into effect tomorrow, and face-to-face peace negotiations should quickly follow.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:06 AM

15. Most armed conflicts nowadays end in some kind of negotiated settlement. The days of U.S. Grant's

 

demands for "unconditional surrender" now seem quaint and obsolete. And even Grant and Lee signed formal surrender terms at Appomattox in 1865, terms that, among other provisions, allowed Confederates to keep their horses to use in tilling their fields.

The Russian Federation's Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, put forward the only sensible proposal -- the 'federalism' approach -- to end the civil war inside Ukraine. Big surprise, Lavrov's proposal was greeted by an almost-universal silence in the Western media and press. I still think this is the way the Ukrainian Civil War will end, not with annihilation of the separatists, but with a negotiated form of 'federalism.'

So why not skip over all the killing and suffering part and go directly to the negotiations phase? (Same can apply to Israelis-Palestinians and Gaza.)

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:07 AM

5. The Russian proxies also paraded their POWs through the streets.

Pro-Russian separatist rebels force-marched dozens of Ukrainian prisoners of war along a main street of the rebel-held Ukrainian town of Donetsk on Sunday.

People shouted "fascists" at the group, who walked with heads bowed. They were largely unshaven and dishevelled and dressed either in combat fatigues or civilian clothes.

A voice over a loudspeaker announced their arrival saying: "We are now able to watch passing people who were sent to kill us."

"We are Russians," the voice said.

A Reuters correspondent on the scene said that some people threw projectiles including bottles. Some shouted "Fascists!" and "Get on your knees!"

In a gesture intended to show that the captives were sullied, street cleaning vehicles moved behind them to cleanse where they had walked.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/24/us-ukraine-crisis-prisoners-idUSKBN0GO0BZ20140824

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:17 AM

10. That is ugly indeed . . .

 

Maybe not as ugly as seeing your house blown apart and your friends and relatives killed by Grad rocket barrages, fired by people who claim to be representatives of your own government. It's not nearly that ugly, I'm sure you would have to agree, so maybe the people who have been on the receiving end of Kiev's months of artillery barrages should be given a little sympathy and even cut a little slack?

Hmmmm?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #10)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:05 PM

41. Because god knows the rebels haven't participated in anything warlike

 

Sure there's the little matter of a plane they almost certainly blew up.

Also the rebels are kidnapping and torturing people per Amnesty International. Not to mention they are siding with Putin who is a scumbag on a whole host of levels.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:15 AM

8. Well, clearly these fine "freedom fighters" are staunch believers in the Geneva Convention.

Parading Ukrainian prisoners of war as part of some propoganda effort on Ukrainian Independence Day.

You stay classy, "Novoroyssia".

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:24 AM

11. After what Kiev has made those people endure . . .

 

One can understand their anger, even if one does regret their actions.

On a purely historical note: The public parade of war prisoners was a standard of the Soviet Union in WWII. They held huge public displays of captured German and other Axis troops, sometime tens of thousands in a single parade (officers at the front of the columns). On those occasions, also, street cleaning trucks followed to wash the pavement after the enemy prisoners had passed.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #11)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:47 AM

21. These are the acts of the seperatist movement, not innocent civilians.

The same separatist movement that has kidnapped journalists, murdered dissidents, executed people for petty crimes, buried people in mass graves, and recklessly shot down a civilian passenger plane. This is not a matter of people acting out frustration. This is par for the course.

And yes, if the Ukrainian government were parading captured separatists down the center of Kyiv, it would just as disgusting. But that's a hypothetical. This isn't.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #21)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 12:40 PM

29. The Ukrainian government is doing far worse than staging distasteful parades.

 

It is using the homes and playgrounds of people it claims are its own citizens as target ranges for indiscriminate fire from rocket artillery batteries. At least in the case of the above-mentioned parade no fifteen-year-old children got maimed for life by shell fire directed at their swimming beach:



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025422230

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:02 AM

14. That's rich

coming from an American

Well, clearly these fine "freedom fighters" are staunch believers in the Geneva Convention.






The United States has been involved in and assisted in the overthrow of foreign governments (more recently termed "regime change" without the overt use of U.S. military force. Often, such operations are tasked to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

Regime change has been attempted through direct involvement of U.S. operatives, the funding and training of insurgency groups within these countries, anti-regime propaganda campaigns, coups d'état, and other activities usually conducted as operations by the CIA. The United States has also accomplished regime change by direct military action, such as following the U.S. invasion of Panama in 1989 and the U.S.-led military invasion of Iraq in 2003

1 Prior to Cold War
1.1 Russia

2 During the Cold War

2.1 Communist states 1944–89
2.2 Syria 1949
2.3 Iran 1953
2.4 Guatemala 1954
2.5 Tibet 1955–70s
2.6 Indonesia 1958
2.7 Cuba 1959
2.8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
2.9 Iraq 1960–63
2.10 Dominican Republic 1961
2.11 South Vietnam 1963
2.12 Brazil 1964
2.13 Ghana 1966
2.14 Chile 1970–73
2.15 Argentina 1976
2.16 Afghanistan 1979–89
2.17 Turkey 1980
2.18 Poland 1980–81
2.19 Nicaragua 1981–90
2.19.1 Destablization through CIA assets
2.19.2 Arming the Contras
2.20 Cambodia 1980–95
2.21 Angola 1980s

3 Since the end of the Cold War

3.1 Iraq 1992–96
3.2 Afghanistan 2001
3.3 Venezuela 2002
3.4 Iraq 2002–03
3.5 Haiti 2004
3.6 Gaza Strip 2006–present
3.7 Somalia 2006–07
3.8 Iran 2005–present
3.9 Libya 2011
3.10 Syria 2012–present

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

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Response to nationalize the fed (Reply #14)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:15 AM

16. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Don't wake the baby

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Response to nationalize the fed (Reply #14)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:40 AM

19. Yes, because clearly as a private American citizen I am prohibited from speaking out...

....against any human rights abuses by other countries/pseudo-countries.



So let me get this straight.....because Americans in a war I did not support (and protested against) started by a president I did not vote for engaged in torture and humiliation of prisoners of war and detainees, I am somehow required to remain silent when I see other people engaging in similar acts in violation of international law?

Do you have any idea how foolish an argument that is?

Also, not sure why you felt the need to cut and paste Wiki on this topic.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #19)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:14 PM

42. no, but you may be considered to clean house first

before you find fault with others.

Funny that you mention the Geneva Conventions, don't you know Ukraine is carrying out an "anti-terrorist" action?

Ukraine forces are bound to adhere to the Convention's mandates, even in conflicts against irregular forces, e.g.

"it is a grave breach of the Protocol to launch “an indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population or civilian objects in the knowledge that such attack will cause excessive loss of life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects"

http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_cha_chapter3_rule11

This is happening every day, even hospitals were hit by rockets. Could you link to your posts in protest? Somehow I must have missed them.

But when these People's Republics, which are not recognized as states and never signed any treaties, in response to a military parade in Kiev put captured vehicles on display, and march some prisoners through the city, soldiers who participated in the above mentioned human rights violations, you are suddenly reminded of Guantanamo Bay? I must say I find this more than a little bit strange.

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Response to reorg (Reply #42)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 04:05 PM

88. First, I'm not even a Ukrainian citizen, let alone a member of their government.

But yes, if the Ukrainian government is directly targeting civilian areas, that is highly contemptible behavior on its part. Moreover, it would be just stupid for them to do so, as they would only be hurting their own image to the citizens of eastern Ukraine and would only complicate reconstruction and reconciliation efforts if and when the rebellion ends.

Right now, however, I haven't seen evidence of targeted shelling of civilian areas. But if there is, I would indeed highly condone such attacks.

But again, this remains completely independent of the pro-Russian separatists duties to humanely treat its prisoners of war. And it appears that they in fact did breach this responsibility by seeking to publicly humiliate these prisoners of war.

As to the legal status of the "people's republic", I believe that's pretty much irrelevant as it relates to Geneva, since Geneva is intended to apply to all fighting forces in instances of civil wars and internal rebellions:
_____________________________________________________________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war

The Geneva Conventions do not specifically define the term "civil war", nevertheless they do outline the responsibilities of parties in "armed conflict not of an international character". This includes civil wars, however no specific definition of civil war is provided in the text of the Conventions.

Nevertheless the International Committee of the Red Cross has sought to provide some clarification through its commentaries on the Geneva Conventions, noting that the Conventions are "so general, so vague, that many of the delegations feared that it might be taken to cover any act committed by force of arms". Accordingly the commentaries provide for different 'conditions' on which the application of the Geneva Convention would depend, the commentary however points out that these should not be interpreted as rigid conditions. The conditions listed by the ICRC in its commentary are as follows:[6][7]

(1) That the Party in revolt against the de jure Government possesses an organized military force, an authority responsible for its acts, acting within a determinate territory and having the means of respecting and ensuring respect for the Convention.

(2) That the legal Government is obliged to have recourse to the regular military forces against insurgents organized as military and in possession of a part of the national territory.

(3) (a) That the de jure Government has recognized the insurgents as belligerents; or (b) That it has claimed for itself the rights of a belligerent; or (c) That it has accorded the insurgents recognition as belligerents for the purposes only of the present Convention; or (d) That the dispute has been admitted to the agenda of the Security Council or the General Assembly of the United Nations as being a threat to international peace, a breach of the peace, or an act of aggression.

(4) (a) That the insurgents have an organization purporting to have the characteristics of a State. (b) That the insurgent civil authority exercises de facto authority over the population within a determinate portion of the national territory. (c) That the armed forces act under the direction of an organized authority and are prepared to observe the ordinary laws of war. (d) That the insurgent civil authority agrees to be bound by the provisions of the Convention

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #88)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 04:30 AM

90. you are clearly supporting the Ukrainian government

if only indirectly by defending your own government's stance and actions in this conflict.

"it is a grave breach of the Protocol to launch “an indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population or civilian objects in the knowledge that such attack will cause excessive loss of life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects"

http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_cha_chapter3_rule11


Life Has Stopped, and There is Nothing More

Question: Natalia, my condolences! If you can, tell us what happened on that tragic day, when your children died?

Natalia: On that day, July 27, I was at home, and it was Sunday. Our packed bags had been standing on the doorstep for several days, but that day we again could not get out of Gorlovka. Every bed-and-breakfast and other places refused to take us because of the baby. ...

Suddenly, I got a call from a person, who took people out of Gorlovka, who said that he will pick us up the next morning. I went to the open window, with a clear view of a park, and immediately called my daughter, Christina, to share the news. She took my granddaughter, Kirochka, for a walk on the street.

“Christina – I shouted on the phone – It’s settled, tomorrow at 9 am we are going! First to Svyatogorsk, and from there to Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, or to the Odessa region. “

“Hurrah!” – She screams with joy – “Kirochka, we’re leaving tomorrow! Hurrah, grandmother, we’re leaving!” I asked her: “Christina, where are you? – In the square, – she said. – Stay where you are – I said, and as soon as I said these words, the square got shelled with “Grad.” It was the first shelling of the city with this equipment. Explosion after explosion, fire, smoke and … nothing. Everything went foggy before my eyes. ...

Without a declaration of war, there is fighting, and we get shot. Why violate all our rights? Declare war, evacuate people and fight. But this is not happening. People are abandoned. ...

http://slavyangrad.org/2014/08/26/a-mothers-letter-who-gave-the-order-to-kill-my-children/


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Response to reorg (Reply #90)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:14 AM

94. To the extent that the Ukrainian military has been involved in any type of reckless shelling...

....of primarily civilian areas, it is highly contemptible and inexcusable.

That being said, I highly doubt that the separatists are abstaining from reckless or indiscriminate shelling. Looking very objectively at the situation, the Ukrainian government's got a lot to lose and the separatists have very little. If a shell from the Ukrainian military lands in a civilian area, after the separatists have been cleared out, the Ukrainians have to deal with some seriously pissed off civilians. If a shell from separatists lands in a civilian area, they'll just blame the Ukrainian military and that's that.

So I honestly think the bulk of the reckless shelling would more likely be coming from the side of the separatists and not the Ukrainian military, just as a matter of practicality.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #19)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:24 PM

83. logical fallacy of tu quoque indeed

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Response to treestar (Reply #83)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 02:31 PM

86. The entire Catherina Crowd is just a walking encyclopedia of logical fallacies. nt

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Response to nationalize the fed (Reply #14)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:26 AM

43. Figures, more tu quoque bullshit.

 

First of all, Tommy is a private citizen, not an agent of the US government. If this were, say, Kerry making that sort of remark, I would give even the slightest leeway.

Second, for all you know, plenty of people who condemn the separatists' acts also condemn the US for its actions as well. This is called being principled, and since you're just diverting from completely legitimate criticism of one group to condemn another, that shows that might be something you need to work on.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:15 AM

17. Well, clearly the Banderite putschistas are staunch believers in human rights.

 

Burning trade unionists to death in Odessa.

Stay classy, fascist Banderite fucks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #17)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:43 AM

20. Has a certain DUer gone west to the Netherlands on his DU vacation?

You seem awfully familiar.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #20)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 12:02 PM

22. Red-bait much?

 

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #22)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 12:15 PM

24. Regardless, you seem to have a rather twisted view of events of the Odessa riots....

...and I suspect in greater the events in Ukraine as a whole.

"Nazi" "Coup" "Junta" "Bandera" "Odessa" "Fascists".....Mad Libs with you guys have to be real fun.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #24)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 12:28 PM

26. Sigh. Denies dozens were burned alive or died of smoke inhalation in

 

Odessa trade union building in fires set by Banderite putschista mob. Calls that story 'twisted.'

Question: what level of atrocity will it take for you to abandon your fascist and neo-Nazi pals in Kiev? Clearly, burning women and children to death hasn't done it, SO WHAT WILL IT TAKE?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-crisis-pro-russian-forces-claim-assault-on-slavyansk-live-updates




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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #26)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 08:58 PM

39. In addition to those who were strangled or shot

But you must have patience with the above poster, he doesn't know anything that hasn't been approved by corporate-owned media editors and doesn't fit in the picture our government spokespersons are trying to convey.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #26)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 11:18 AM

48. Double sigh. Show me where I "denied" anything.

Odessa happened. It just didn't happen anything like you want us to believe it happened.

You want to believe that what happened at the Trade Union building was an unprovoked, out of the blue "massacre" of "trade unionists"/"anti-fascists". That's a deliberately dishonest narrative of the entire unfortunate incident.

A much fuller reading of the day's events was that pro-Russian activists attacked and then shot into an initially non-violent pro-Ukrainian demonstration, killing several pro-Ukrainian demonstrators. This enraged the pro-Ukrainian side, who then marched over to the Trade Union building where the pro-Russian side had taken camp. This is where unfortunately the deadly fire started. But even then, the violence was two sided.

What happened in Odessa that day was horrible, horrific, and no one on either side should ever have died. But it was classic mob violence at its worst.

You make it sound like the people at the trade building were attacked unprovoked by "fascists" who only wanted to recreate some decades old pogrom. That's a deliberately misleading narrative of the situation that removes altogether the overall context of the day's tragic events.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #48)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 11:39 AM

54. Like all neo-liberal Russophobes, you provide absolutely no sourcing WHATSOEVER

 

for your outlandish assertions.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #54)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 11:49 AM

55. Well, given the fact that I was actually watching the events live....

...and I actually saw pro-Russian gunmen shooting into the crowd as it happened.

As a matter of fact, I posted my observations here as they happened:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014794103#post35

Others posted screen caps of the gunmen.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #55)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 11:59 AM

56. Oh, you were in Odessa at the time, were you? Were you embedded with

 

Right Sector\Svoboda Parubiy's forces? Oh, wait, you didn't actually 'watch the events live,' now did you?

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #56)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:03 PM

57. There was a live feed. I saw it as it happened.

And clearly there were pro-Russian gunmen on the rooftops shooting at the pro-Ukrainian crowd.

This is the exact scene I saw happen live:



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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #57)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:09 PM

58. Since every independent report AFTER THE FACT made no reference

 

whatsoever to pro-Russian gunment firing from the building into the crowd and almost every single independent report AFTER THE FACT referenced the fact that a gang of Right Sector thugs chased a group of peaceful separatists who were demonstrating at a nearby intersection in Odessa into the building, I believe we are done. Nothing further is to be gained by an exchange of views on this incident or topic. Even were Parubiy himself to confess his complicity in the execution of several dozen of his countrymen, you'd stick by your version of events.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #58)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:29 PM

60. You believe we are done? Or do you just not want to listen?

BBC News on the incident from May 6th:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383

"An amateur YouTube video appears to show a line of riot police shielding pro-Russian activists, one of whom fires a gun while chunks of paving stone rain down from the crowd on the other side.

A number of reports also spoke of armed protesters using the rooftop of the Afina shopping centre to fire pistols and throw Molotov cocktails.

There seems little doubt that the gunshots - and reports of casualties - fuelled the anger of the pro-Ukrainian crowd."

Care to reconsider your prior position?

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:39 AM

18. Apparently there are some fairly widespread protests against.......

military conscription in west and central Ukraine, along with dissatisfaction in the Ukrainian army. As some have said in this thread, the putsch are having to rely more and more on the fascist gangs as their enforcers in the east and south.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #18)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 12:03 PM

23. Careful or you'll get red-baited by the 'classy' ones.

 

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #23)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 12:21 PM

25. And why not?....

As a Red, I'm well used to being Red baited On Ukraine though, I've held this position from the very first. The League for a Fifth International actually agreed with me on Ukraine rather than the other way around. Although I'm not saying that they KNEW they were agreeing. We just came to the same conclusions with me a little earlier.

Also as you probably know, when it comes to saving capitalism, liberals are on the same page with the fascists. Better dead than Red. Or better Nazi than workers' power.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 12:29 PM

27. Why Not, Indeed, Sir

As you know, we do not see eye to eye on this, but your position is one worth respect, and certainly no apologia for one crew of imperialists over another.

The idea that Putin represents the left here, and that criticizing his actions and mouthpieces is 'red-baiting' is laughable.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #27)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 12:34 PM

28. With all due respect, Sir, it's metaphorical red-baiting to insinuate that

 

anyone who criticizes and denounces the putschistas in Kiev is somehow thereby defending Putin or a traitor to the U.S. (It's not literal red-baiting, because Putin is not a Communist and there's no insinuation that anyone defending him is a Communist.)

Real patriots oppose fascism no matter where it rears its ugly head, whether that be the Kiev Rada or the streets of Ferguson.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #28)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 01:18 PM

30. Defending Putin, Sir, Is Defending Fascism

Add Moscow to your list, if you want anyone to take you seriously as an honest opponent of fascism.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #30)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 02:13 PM

31. Putin is President in a country with a multi-party parliament (the Duma). I'm not sure

 

how that qualifies under any reasonable definition of 'fascism,' Sir, save in Western Russophobic propaganda.

Contrast with the Ukrainian putschistas, one of whose most recent actions has been to ban the Ukrainian Communist Party outright. (In the last pre-putsch elecctions, the UCP received 13% of the vote while Svoboda, one of the spearheads behind the putsch, received only 10%.) The Communist Party holds a high number of seats, by contrast, in the Russian Duma.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #31)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 02:16 PM

32. You Need To Get Out More, Sir

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #32)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 02:25 PM

33. I do not believe we will convince one another as to whether the Russian Federation

 

under Putin is fascist or merely nationalist. But I would suggest, Sir, that you take a look at Robert Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism and consider carefully Paxton's criteria for what constitutes fascism before rendering a verdict on the RF. Specifically, fascism seeks to achieve either de jure or de facto a one-party state (among other hallmarks). This manifestly is not the case in the RF currently, under Putin's latest presidency and Medvedev's prime ministerial tenure.

I think a far better analogue for the RF and Putin is 19th-century unified Germany under Bismarck. Bismarck was certainly no leftist, but he did preside over a multi-party Reichstag, much as Medvedev and Putin preside over a multi-party Duma.

BTW, Sir, those 14 characteristics you list certainly sound as though they apply to the U.S. as much or more than they do the RF. Certainly you're not suggesting that the U.S. is 'fascist'?

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #33)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 02:36 PM

34. I Am Not Interested In Convincing You, Sir

This engagement is solely to give you the opportunity to demonstrate at ever greater length that, though you posture as an opponent of fascism, you are in fact engaged in defense of one of the leading fascists and imperialists in the world today.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #34)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 07:35 PM

37. I recommend stretching before trying that posture. Easy to pull a hamstring doing that.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #30)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:02 PM

69. Traits of fascism: ultranationalism, militarism, devotion to a strong leader, the right of strong

countries to expand into weaker ones and using political violence and war to 'rejuvenate' a nation.

Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

That certainly sounds a lot like what Putin is bringing to Russia.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #18)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 09:01 PM

40. Western media is definitely leaving that story alone . . .

 

Networks who would cover anti-war protests in Western Ukraine, such as RT News, are no longer allowed in Ukraine at all.

When the protests get big enough, though, we are bound to see some coverage.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 02:49 PM

35. victories of anti-Kiev powers its a good news

 

$3 billion they can give to Russia for russian gas .
But they haven't money .
Now they use old weapons from USSR
Poroshenko goverment will destroed because Novorussia will victory .

Ukrainian prisoners in main streed its link to 1944 in Moscow . at 1944 Germany prisoners was in Moscow , some elements was replayed in Donetsk

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Response to rus084 (Reply #35)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 07:30 PM

36. Welcome to DU, rus084!

 

I noticed the parallels with Stalin's displays of POWs as well. History does sometimes repeat itself. Still, lets hope Kiev agrees to a ceasefire in the near future, so this madness can stop and no additional lives will be lost.


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Response to another_liberal (Reply #36)


Response to another_liberal (Reply #36)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:37 PM

62. Buh Bye to DU, rus084!

 

Linking to an anti-Semitic hate site will get you gone pretty fast.

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Response to rus084 (Reply #35)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 07:37 PM

38. I can't tell if this is parody of a Pootlicker or not.

Putin great guy. He strong and not gay like Kiev fascist guys.

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Response to rus084 (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:28 AM

44. Right...

 

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #44)


Response to Name removed (Reply #45)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 11:28 AM

52. From your post comrade. nt.

 

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Response to rus084 (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 10:56 AM

47. Oh, so it's okay, because Stalin did it before.

Gotcha.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #47)


Response to Name removed (Reply #49)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 11:21 AM

50. .......

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #50)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:43 PM

64. Terminated Over a Link To 'Veterans Today', Sir

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014879353

One of the hate sites and conspiracy sites 'Team Putin' is prone to cite as back-up for their views and comments....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #64)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:07 PM

74. He's not the only one on this thread citings Veterans Today, FWIW. nt

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 11:30 AM

53. Does anybody know

whether the Ukrainian National Guard has taken any prisoners from the rebel forces it is fighting?

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Response to rogerashton (Reply #53)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:14 PM

59. Since the Ukrainian National Guard routinely calls the 'rebel forces' (sic) it is

 

fighting 'terrorists,' and since several of its national leaders like Tymoshenko have routinely and unapologetically called for the wholesale extermination of the entire pro-separatist population (civilian and combatant alike) in the Donbass, I think it's likely that the UNG are summarily executing any separatists they capture.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #59)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:35 PM

61. So you chide me for supposedly fabricating allegations regarding the mob violence in Odessa...

...even though I've shown you videos and sources behind my claims, and yet you baselessly speculate that the Ukrainian military is summarily executing prisoners of war?

Way to draw a double standard there, buddy.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #59)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:39 PM

63. You think it's likely that the UNG are summarily executing separatists?

 

Care to provide a link?

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Response to IronGate (Reply #63)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:46 PM

66. Tymoshenko said they all (civilians and combatants alike) should be exterminated. I can't

 

find a link for this, as her comment was caught on tape a few months back (about 2-3 weeks after the putsch had transpired, IIRC).

I cannot provide a link for my opinion that UNG are executing summarily captured separatists. but their leadership call them 'terrorists' over and over again and one is entitled to draw a reasonable inference.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #66)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:52 PM

68. So, IOW, you're making shit up without any proof?

 

Surprise, surprise.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #68)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:04 PM

71. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm owed an apology (not that I'm

 

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #71)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:07 PM

75. That's not proof that the UNG is executing prisoners.

 

And linking to an anti-Semitic hate site?
Not good, not very good at all, they're about as believable as RT.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #77)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:13 PM

80. OMG.

 


Did you even read it?

According to the Moscow Times, the recording, apparently made March 8, details a conversation between Tymoshenko and Nestor Shufrych from Ukraine's National Security Council, and has Tymoshenko suggesting that Ukrainians should kill Russians, and, in particular, Russian President Vladimir Putin. The recording, which may have been altered, also apparently features Tymoshenko suggesting that the 8 million Russians living in Ukraine should be killed with "nuclear weapons."

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Response to IronGate (Reply #80)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:15 PM

81. We're done, dude, as every attempt to satisfy your objections is met with

 

further moving of the goal posts.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #81)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:19 PM

82. IOW, you've been schooled and now you're admitting defeat.

 

Prove I'm wrong about the links you've posted?
So far, you've posted a link to an anti-Semitic hate site, a link that got their info from Moscow Times that admitted that the tape may have been altered.
Any other links you may have, I'll look at, but I mean reputable links.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #81)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 02:32 PM

87. Brave Sir Robin over here.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #81)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 02:22 PM

105. Yup. I'd say you're pretty much "done, dude".

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Response to IronGate (Reply #75)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:12 PM

79. Good luck getting this poster to admit anything.

And if you proof anything to him, he'll just pretend you don't exist.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #79)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:29 PM

84. You were right,

 

when I called him/her out on the sites linked to, told me we were done.

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #71)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 04:48 PM

89. Wonderful Hate Site You Link To, Sir

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/02/israeli-teens-2/

"The murder of the three Israeli teens, like 9/11, was a ritual human sacrifice. Such sacrifices are typically used to forge unity and launch wars. This has been going on for time immemorial, as explained by such scholars of ritual human sacrifice as René Girard.

In ritual human sacrifice – a very common practice in pre-montheistic cultures – the victims must be innocent. Such sacred lynching of innocent victims is associated with scapegoating. In this case, Palestinians will be scapegoated for the false-flag murder of the teens, and a massive human sacrifice of innocent Palestinian victims will follow – in the same way that the ritual sacrifice of 3,000 innocent Americans on 9/11 triggered the murder of millions of Muslims."

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/08/12/911-probe/

"The Israeli Mossad appears to have been responsible for surveiling and setting up the 19 patsies, 15 of them Saudis, who would be blamed for 9/11; reports by journalists Christopher Ketcham and Justin Raimondo, and an investigative report by Carl Cameron of Fox News, revealed that Israel mounted the biggest spy operation ever against the US as it surveilled (or “ran”) the 9/11 hijacker-patsies. Hundreds of 9/11-related Israel spies were arrested; all were quickly released on orders from above.

The Israeli Mossad also set up the controlled demolitions of the Twin Towers and WTC-7. Zionist crime kingpins Larry Silverstein, Lewis Eisenberg and Frank Lowy arranged for the condemned-for-asbestos World Trade Center to be “privatized” two months before 9/11 and doubled the terror insurance; and Mossad agents Paul Kurzberg, Silvan Kurzberg, Israelis Yaron Shmuel, and Omer Gavriel Marmari were arrested on the morning of 9/11 as they were filming and celebrating their agency’s handiwork. Though the 9/11-perp Mossad agents failed polygraph tests, Michael Chertoff, a US-Israeli dual citizen then in charge of the FBI’s Criminal Investigation Division, killed the investigation and ordered the “dancing Israelis” sent back to Israel."

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #89)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 02:24 PM

106. Thanks for providing those links. Sounds like a source that should be avoided at all costs. n/t

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #59)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:44 PM

65. you certainly do hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself to.

When it comes to citing valid sources, you certainly do hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself to.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #65)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 12:47 PM

67. I made it clear that I was stating an opinion, one based upon the inferences drawn from the

 

putschistas' own statements, like Tymoshenko's.

Do I need to find a link to Tymoshenko's intercepted call to exterminate all pro-Russian civilians and combatants living in the Donbass?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/25/in-latest-wiretapping-leak-yulia-tymoshenko-appears-to-say-nuclear-weapons-should-be-used-to-kill-russians/

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #67)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:02 PM

70. If you're claiming it as a fact, then, yeah, you should. nt.

 

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #73)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:09 PM

76. Veteranstoday? Really?

 

You're linking to an anti-Semitic hate site to prove your point?
One newbie has already been banned due to linking to this site.
Sure you want to go there?

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Response to VanGoghRocks (Reply #67)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 01:04 PM

72. And yet you're not willing to recognize basic facts regarding the Odessa riots?

You do in fact hold separate standards.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 02:10 PM

85. Are there any other news sources reporting this? nt.

 

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Response to IronGate (Reply #85)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 08:29 AM

91. Nothing owned by Rupert Murdoch, not a one.

 

Seriously though, if you're really interested in learning something, you can try a Google search.

A search maybe like this:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Separatists+win+gains+in+Ukraine

Enjoy.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #91)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 10:15 AM

92. Ha!!!!

 

The only ones reporting this is pro-Russia media.
This is made up bullshit from the Kremlin desperate to try to inject some good news into an otherwise dismal future for it's lackeys.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #92)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 12:37 PM

95. You are welcome . . .

 

To your opinion.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #95)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 12:42 PM

97. How is it my opinion?

 

Your google link shows that the only ones "reporting" this nonsense are pro-Russia sources.
Now, if you have legitimate sources that are reporting these so called gains by the pro-Russia faction, I'll be more than happy to read them.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 11:11 AM

93. After losing Slavyansk?

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Response to moondust (Reply #93)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 12:39 PM

96. True, that town was lost . . .

 

How long it will remain "lost" is yet to be seen, right?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #96)

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 12:45 PM

98. Only if Russia intervenes directly with combat troops,

 

otherwise, the pro-Russia terrorists are soon to be done for.

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