Explaining White Privilege to a Broke White Person

[xchrom]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000010



Years ago some feminist on the Internet told me I was "privileged."

"THE F&CK!?!?" I said.

I came from the kind of poor that people don't want to believe still exists in this country. Have you ever spent a frigid northern-Illinois winter without heat or running water? I have. At 12 years old were you making ramen noodles in a coffee maker with water you fetched from a public bathroom? I was. Have you ever lived in a camper year-round and used a random relative's apartment as your mailing address? We did. Did you attend so many different elementary schools that you can only remember a quarter of their names? Welcome to my childhood.



So when that feminist told me I had "white privilege," I told her that my white skin didn't do shit to prevent me from experiencing poverty. Then, like any good, educated feminist would, she directed me to Peggy McIntosh's now-famous 1988 piece "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack."

After one reads McIntosh's powerful essay, it's impossible to deny that being born with white skin in America affords people certain unearned privileges in life that people of other skin colors simply are not afforded. For example:

"I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented."

"When I am told about our national heritage or about 'civilization,' I am shown that people of my color made it what it is."

[gordianot]

1. I would have recommended a different book.

"Understanding Poverty" by Ruby K Payne PhD. This book is the result of decades of research. Primary finding poverty and the reaction to poverty is universal. You might get white privilege when you are no longer poor but being poor leaves psychological changes and your approach to survival. It does not matter your religion, ethnic heritage, where you live, racial group the similarities are greater the differences.

[ColesCountyDem]

3. Indeed! 'Post-racial America' is nothing but Jim Crow restated.

RW America does the exact same thing that was done in the post-Civil War South: it attracts poor, white Americans by making them believe that even the poorest among them are some how 'better' than every single black American, even though any objective analysis would clearly show that they have far more in common with black Americans than they do with their wealthier, white brethren.

[gordianot]

5. Even when you make it there are still sneers directed toward you.

Prime example the term "poor white trash". Usage : The are so gawdy after all they are nothing but poor white trash. I consider that the white equivalent of the n-word. Notice though I felt comfortable enough to use in print a term I feel is racist.

[jwirr]

12. Very recent example: the lady who is running for governor in Texas was a single mother and on

assistance. They are using it against her.

Edit to say that the original poster sounds somewhat like myself. Never truly out of poverty. Being white did not help me stay or get out of poverty but for the most part I did not have to face the hate I see in discrimination against minority groups. The closest I have come to that is being a woman.

[paleotn]

20. That term is the same....

...and used for the same reason as the n-word....class subjugation. I think most outside the South fail to realize how rigidly stratified socieity here was and to some extent still is, and not just on obvious racial lines. To the upper classes, it's politically very useful to pit poor whites against minorities. Always has been.

[Vattel]

2. Is the point supposed to be that the unearned advantages of being white

outweigh the unearned disadvantages of being white? That is hard to assess.

There are unearned advantages and disadvantages to being white. For example:

Advantage: "When I am told about our national heritage or about 'civilization,' I am shown that people of my color made it what it is."

Disadvantage: "When I am told who has been responsible for most oppression in my country, I am shown that people of my color have been the oppressors."

Given that we have the concepts of racism, racial hatred, and racial injustice, who needs the concept of white privilege?

[7962]

10. That is a brilliant point. You're exactly right.

[NuclearDem]

16. Seriously?

Hurt fee-fees and guilt trips outweigh all the advantages someone with white skin inherently has?

[paleotn]

21. Not in the least....

the classic defense my people use against said guilt trips is denial. The same way we try to deny our obvious racial and socioeconomic privilege.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

108. Deny and deflect.

[Vattel]

76. who said they did?

[JustAnotherGen]

68. Not sure if you are male or female

But here's another way to look at it.

"I'm a beautiful black woman in America. Not a beautiful woman. ". Who said it? It was a conversation between me and Vanessa Williams (first black Miss America) at a beach bar in St. Martin in the 1990's.

When I buy products for my hair - I go to a section of the drugstore that is about 12 inches wide and two shelves - I was in Rite Aid this morning. That's not 12% of two long stacked aisles - no way.

I think sometimes the message of these articles get lost in the poverty perspective.

If you look at it as two women - one white and one black in America - AT every economic level - you will see these distinctions made.

Take poverty out of it if it helps. Take where you are "placed" in society.

Now here's the thing - and it's Meant as a compliment . . . It's hard for a white male progressive/liberal to see these things. Because you probably don't question Vanessa Williams beauty or know the difference between good hair vs. "bad" hair vs. "natural" hair or why these distinction might identify a black woman's "class".

However racism created both of these examples - and they both continue to exist. When you see that - these two examples and acknowledge and honor their existence - you strip away white privilege.

[Vattel]

80. I don't deny that being born white confers certain advantages.

I think that racism and racial injustice in America are horrific problems. The war on drugs, for example, or the lack of educational and economic opportunities for children born in poor black neighborhoods--these are serious problems. But I think that the inherent advantages of being white are mostly irrelevant to the serious discussion of race in America. Vanessa Williams whining about being regarded as a beautiful black woman rather than as a beautiful woman? Most people realize she is a beautiful woman. Fewer options on hair products? That is probably driven by market forces, not racial prejudice. Name me one white privilege that is anywhere near as serious a problem as the war on drugs or economic injustices that disproportionately harm blacks and I will start taking white privilege more seriously.

[JustAnotherGen]

85. Hmmm

Ahhh - those things don't impact you - so you can't see them. Look for a book - Sister Citizen. It will open your eyes to how being part of the non dominant culture impacts you.

If you don't understand the massive amounts of money black women put into their hair - you will after you read the book.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/antonia-opiah/the-changing-business-of-_b_4650819.html


The market could be worth half a billion dollars - if drug stores respond to the need.

Your place in America - didn't give you the Sunday Evenings of bonding with your mother over your hair. it's tradition. Oh yes - tradition. It's heart space. And it's gobs of money in America.

And she wasn't whining. She was complimenting my blonde haired blue eyed boyfriend for how he treated her years earlier when he was visiting some friends at SU - and he called someone to the floor for the prefaced statement. And he agreed. But maybe only white men who cross the color line get that? They get enter our interior worlds that the average joe dominant culture white guy only has a Kerry Washington show to look to?

The war on drugs is not gong away anytime soon. Too many people benefit from it. And blacks can for example - get in on the hair game and change our subeconomy. There's gold in them thar naps! But I'll get accused of being a bigot if I opened and marketed a salon in my community that only caters to black women and only carries black owned hair products.

Yet - whenever I've moved - I have to ask, "is there anyone there who can handle my hair."


On the one hand you want to dismiss the social construct because we are all in this together. On the other hand - you can't see that on the most basic products and services you or your wife take for granted - we aren't.

[Vattel]

95. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

98. The Chris Rock movie "Good Hair" opened my eyes.

I remember reading in "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" that he put lye and a raw egg on his hair to "conk", or straighten it.

Well, Black people still use lye to straighten their hair. It burns your scalp with an alkaline burn. It's sodium hydroxide (NaOH).

In the movie, men talked about how the women were tense when they kissed because they didn't want the boyfriend to mess up their hair, and it affected their relationships. Also, some women spent one to two thousand dollars a month on their hair. That included straightening and weaves and hair extensions and things I didn't know about.

As a white person with thick curly hair that can be unmanageable if it gets too long, when I heard the part about spending one to two thousand a MONTH on your hair, I thought, "Wow".

They call the lye (white goo in a jar) "creamy crack". So basically they are destroying their hair's structure to straighten it and make it look more like white peoples' hair. I didn't know that Chris Rock was a sociologist, but he made me aware of the issues around Black peoples' hair. Like trying to live up to a "white" ideal standard of beauty.

Some could argue that I am abusing my hair by putting peroxide bleach and dye on it.

[JustAnotherGen]

99. We watched the movie on demand

When my husband and I had been dating about six weeks. He reached over and gave it a little tug - then when I said "ouch" I told him - that's my natural real hair don't pull it - he laughed and said thank god! It was around the point of the weave costs in the movie.

Psst - try Argan oil products - He's from southern italy - wavy curly thick hair and uses all of my hair stuff now. He never gets tangles with that conditioner. Another of my girlfriends is Ashkenazi with that über curly spiral hair and I've made her Russian and German butt into a convert too!

[thesquanderer]

4. Good article, that is more than this excerpt suggests (n/t)

[Brigid]

6. Yes, "white privilege" as a concept is a hard sell . . .

To a white person who grew up in, or still lives in, dire poverty. It would also be a hard sell to a fiftysomething white guy who has been working his butt off all his life and has just been rewarded with his job being shipped overseas.

[ColesCountyDem]

8. I resemble your post!

[Orsino]

9. And the easy sell...

...is telling that white person that all this was done to him/her by those different-looking people over there, rather than by the old white men hiding on an estate somewhere else, using Koch/Murdoch-level money to sell that message.

[BlueCaliDem]

27. Excellent observation - and oh, so painfully true.

Nobody wants to hear they're poor. Nobody wants to hear that they're underprivileged, and it doesn't matter what your skin color or ethnicity is. It's human nature to abhor being part of the disadvantaged group among your peers.

The KochBros/Murdoch types know this all too well. They prey on those insecurities of the impoverished Whites in this country who are still the most dominant, most prolific voting demographic in this country. They "help" alleviate their pain caused by poverty by directing their anger, not on them where it belongs since they're the cause of that poverty, but on people with naturally dark skin who have nothing to do with it and are in the same place as they are.

The wealthy and well-connected Right-wingers/Libertarians in this country spend hundreds of millions of dollars on propaganda in order to pit disadvantaged people against each other so that they, themselves, can stay high and dry above the fray, safe in their immense posh castles while they laugh and clink glasses of expensive cognac at how smart and successful they are at fooling and manipulating the "unwashed masses" to do their bidding.

Again, we must not forget, Whites make up the largest demographic in this country, and that's not going to change any time soon. It's crucial to the continued success of robbing the poor and enriching the already obscenely rich to keep the largest voting demographic angry and racist so that they don't vote for the Party that harbors so many "others".

[Brigid]

63. Excuse me, but . . .

Did you get lost on the way to Free Republic or Discussionist or something?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

86. Highly signifigant! They do it and they do it well. And they can because they have the money to.

Which, to me, is another reason to fight massive wealth inequality. No one should have the money to buy that sort of power.

[Hippo_Tron]

25. It shouldn't be a hard sell, if sold along with the concept of class privilege

Privilege discussions don't need to be a pissing contest about who is more oppressed. Poor people, regardless of race, have been plenty screwed over just as non-whites have regardless of class.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

87. While I totally agree that white privelege exists,

I think it may be counter-productive to try to get disadvantaged whites to recognize it, much less prioritize it. We need to raise up the low, not bring down the slightly higher.

Edited to add: I happened to go to this post immediately after posting this and wanted to say that examples like that have to be white privilege that nearly everyone can be expected to find compelling.

Then again, perhaps, the family of Kelly Thomas would not highly prioritize white privilege.

It's complicated.

[Hippo_Tron]

101. Unfortunately, it's not that simple

Creating a political coalition from the marginalized groups in society requires the people in those groups to have a degree of sympathy for the other marginalized groups they're organizing with. Plenty of Republicans have sympathy for one marginalized group but not any of the others. And I'd say that the family of Kelly Thomas probably would highly prioritize stopping police brutality, which statistically has a disproportionate effect on black people.

But I would add the caveat that the message needs to very clearly emphasize, WHITE PEOPLE YOU ARE NOT IMMUNE from any of this, it can happen to you too. When people use anecdotes of a white person acting violently and not being brutalized by the cops, I think it undermines that message. Privilege exists in the statistics, not the anecdotes.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

103. It's a bit confusing that you started your response to my post that ended with, "It's complicated,"

by saying, "It's not that simple." Um, yeah. Like I said.

It also makes me unsure sure which of your points you think are antithetical to mine and which are in agreement.

Perhaps, to clarify my thoughts, I'll say that while, yes, Thomas's family would agree with a message decrying police brutality, despite the fact that it statistically disproportionately effects black people, the idea of white privilege still may not resonate strongly with them. And may even piss them off. Especially if, before joining with others to fight police brutality they're told, "First you must admit you're racist." (From DU post another DU post on white privilege, I had in mind.)

But I my point is supported by reply #78 of this thread:

I really started to understand 'white privilege' only when people instead started talking about the bad things that DIDN'T happen to me because of my skin colour, and when I was shown items about practices like redlining, and statistics about housing, income, employment and wealth. McIntosh's list might be useful in teaching some folks about white privilege, but I think it actually gets in the way for others. Lots of people are going to think you're being weird if you start talking about crayons and bandaids as being 'privilege', but everyone can understand that not being harassed by police simply based on the lightness of your skin is pretty obvious. And when you're first teaching people about new concepts, it helps to start with the most obvious and blatant examples that they can grab onto, not more subtle and presumably less consequential ones.

Again, small, things do matter, but we have to understand the failure of disadvantaged whites, particularly ones like Kelly Thomas's family, to grasp the insidious power of white privilege in the midst of their own overwhelming powerlessness.

[treestar]

91. Good point

And being sarcastic and mean about it doesn't help either, like the post above about "hurt fee-fees." I don't know how racial equality it to be gained by this. If you get all the whites to recognize their privilege, will racism disappear? It seems more divisive than anything else.

[handmade34]

7. K&R n/t

[BlueJazz]

11. I've experienced white privilege my whole life. True, I've felt the wrath of discrimination..

..a few other ways but (I'm sure) nothing like the hate of being the "wrong" color.

The only advantage I might have is: I've never felt superior to any group of people. My parents were wonderful examples of how to try to make the world better for all.

Plus: I try to never forget the old phrase There, for the grace of God, go I..
(and this is from an Atheist.)

[fasttense]

13. You know who really has the most unearned privilege in America?

The uber rich. The vast majority of them are born into wealth, and then go about devising schemes to steal our national wealth. They get comped so many things like hotel accommodations and food. They are kowtowed to as if they are royalty even the president tries to sweet talk them. They are never arrested for their numerous crimes against humanity and they are rewarded for being thieves with bail outs and low, low interest loans.

The uber rich are never shot on the street by cops. They are never stopped and harassed, they are never intentionally inconvenienced.

Talk about unearned privilege, the uber rich take and never give back to society unless they can get a tax write-off or other benefit from their carefully calculated charity.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

18. Please don't deflect attention away from the issue at hand. We all agree about the 1% but that's not

the topic.

I can assure you that black men in suits who are apart of that 1% are routinely stopped and harassed by police for "driving in a nice car". They couldn't have possibly earned it; they had to be drug dealers in the minds of those cops, right? WRONG!!

So please stop!

There are many, countless examples of very wealthy and accomplished black men and women who are harassed based solely on their skin color, not on what's in their wallets. We've heard these stories before, even recently with Oprah, Mellanie Hobson (CEO of Dreamworks, married to George Lucas), Will Smith, even President Obama and Eric Holder.

[jen63]

19. Yes! ^This^

I am poor and white, but have never had to deal with these issues on a daily basis. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like. As woman, I'm a minority, but I'm not an African American woman, which is a double whammy. I don't get pulled over while driving, or asked by the police where I'm going or what I'm doing. I can't imagine living with that day in and day out. It has to take a huge toll on the psyche.

[redqueen]

29. Thank you.

Goddess, the title of that segment. That they would even ask. That people here would attempt to conflate those words.

Words fail.

[loyalsister]

35. I know Tim Wise's story well

When I got caught shoplifting at age 14, I was crying and the security guard told me he disliked his job when he caught "someone like you." He called my parents to pick me up rather than the police. While we were waiting for my parents he showed me the cameras and gave me candy. I swear to god- skittles.

[loyalsister]

42. Because I have heard it a lot since

advocating on disability issues and trying to convince legislators not to cut medicaid in 2005, I heard the same thing. There is no question that I am less likely to be accused of gaming the system than my black friends who are in similar circumstances with an invisible disability.

[freshwest]

92. Agreed... And the troll was served pizza...

[BaggersRDumb]

55. I still am amazed how many white people, regardless of income, dont understand that privilege

starts when they wake up in the morning and lasts till they go to sleep at night.

You hear some white person who has worked hard all their life say "nobody gave me nothing"

Wrong, you were given COUNTLESS breaks, advantages, benefits of the doubt, and you are simply not aware of it.

You were NOT pulled over by cops countless times and one day you were so sick of it you fought back and were killed.

Racism is a white problem, and only white people can fix it, no matter how privileged they think they arent.

[JustAnotherGen]

70. I tried to give another example up above

Before I read this post. And it references all classes.

[fasttense]

105. It is the same issue.

Holding out the black person to be a scapegoat for the inequality of capitalism is what the uber rich do to ensure the poor stay in their place. Koch and company are constantly fermenting hatred toward minorities because it takes the attention and the blame away from their crimes.

When I went to hear Cornel West and Tavis Smiley speak, they outlined how racism is used by the uber rich and how closely it is tied to poverty.

Ok I'll grant you that sometimes the uber rich black person is harassed but I have never heard about them being shot down. But racism is just a different face of poverty and ignorance.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

107. Fuck that and fuck Cornel West who is driven by his personal resentment of Obama

It is NOT the same.

Henry Louis Gates, Jr. was stopped and accosted right outside of his own home! It didn't matter how many advanced degrees he has or how much money! His skin color is brown/black, and so there are racist assumptions about brown/black men and women that white people don't even have to think about!

Don't be full of shit, my friend. You know damn well that skin color matters, regardless of income.

My father gets pulled over routinely. Doesn't matter that he's a high earning doctor.

I get followed in stores, even when wearing a nice dress or suit. The person following me doesn't know my income. Income doesn't funking matter! They are following and harassing me because I'm a black woman! Period!

Don't come at me with your bullshit deflection. It won't work, not here!

The Salon.com story spells this out beautifully!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014883573

See also the black female professor from ASU who stopped, harassed and manhandled because she jaywalked.

And what about the black pregnant mother who was accosted by police, we still don't know why.

Don't fucking pretend that income trumps race! You know damn well that that's a lie!

I'm so sick and tired of this bullshit deflection and unwillingness to be honest about race!

[WinkyDink]

24. And they are WHITE, which is the topic.

[IrishAyes]

14. With the advantage of being raised in a multi-racial environment,

I never needed white privilege explained to me. The most diligent efforts to deny or extinguish it never did entirely. Consciousness can and must be raised if any hope of true equality, peace, and justice are ever to be achieved.

Even where I retired in RedNeckLand because that's the only place I could afford, I basically keep the worst LEOs off my law-abiding back by making it clear it's more trouble than it's worth to hassle me. Until they finally caught on, I had no end of trouble. Can you imagine a town zoning official appearing at my door with the police chief! to try to intimidate me into letting my northside neighbor annex a 10'x120' strip of my yard just because he said he wanted it? They used all kinds of abusive behaviors trying to make me crumple.

Because I was so shocked and horrified into a certain amount of disbelief, I let the farce go on much too long. But that finally wore off enough for me to get my Irish up, and I sternly ordered them to leave. Ordered! And got away with it by threatening to turn massive negative attention on their illegal and immoral behavior. Not for one second was I unaware that I survived largely on the basis of white privilege. But they scared me so much anyway that for weeks afterward I slept with a pistol under my pillow.

Since then they've had a bellyful of me at enough council meetings, for instance, that they're far less inclined to yank my chain.

This is the tiny town where one black lady, a widow, made the mistake of coming to escape urban violence after her children had seen and experienced too much violence in the city. The high school kids took her teenage son down to the courthouse around midnight and conducted a mock lynching. I hope and pray her family found better conditions where they moved next.

[heaven05]

15. no matter how dirt poor

Last edited Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:05 AM - Edit history (3)

the systemic, institutionalized and now shown militarized systems to be able to deny people of color their rights and their life were not and are not perpetuated by people of color. Who has the ability to field APC's, large caliber automatic weapons against american citizens demanding equal rights and justice? Who has the right to murder a kid and go into hiding with much help from the local system? NEVER would have happened with a black cop. White privilege and the ability to use that privilege, as an oppressor, as seen in Ferguson during and post murder, does not by and large include people in the streets, generations from the first fight for equal rights, who are fighting for equal rights AGAIN. When I see young white males being shot down in the street, in the numbers that black males are, then and only then will I believe that white privilege does not exist, anymore. And that includes the right not to be shot down as an unarmed "unnecessary thing&quot actual quote) in the streets of america. I do not care how poor a white person may be, they are still able to take advantage of a system of benefit(s), if they are able. All I have to do is remember the overseers of slaves in the field were poorer white people. And they DID think they were better than those they oversaw. It is fact that a person of color is denied only because of the pigment in their skin. The rights of free and unencumbered voting, living where one might desire and just plain being followed by the store detectives when entering a Target, Meijer is what a minority faces. Being denied service because one may be deemed not privileged enough to have the rubles to purchase the baubles at an high end store is racism. That does not happen to white people. They are "privileged" not to suffer that indignity.Period.

How ludicrous this back and forth on this forum with the deniers of white privilege who needs that denial to be able to live in ones own skin. White privilege is fact and the deniers? Keep on keeping on. You have to have that denial. You have that right. I do understand. Somewhat.

[Louisiana1976]

88. White privilege is like manmade global warming. It's there, but there are a lot of people who deny

it.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

17. "Black Like Me," by John Howard Griffin, "White Like Me" by Tim Wise of ANYTHING written by Tim Wise

These are white authors/scholars who have written extensively on white skin privilege.

Also, anything by James Hoewen who has done amazing work on the concept of sundown towns that should be required reading for everyone:

http://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American-ebook/dp/B005V2DQJE/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408802079&sr=1-1&keywords=sundown+towns

Please visit both Tim Wise and Jim Hoewen's web pages as well.

[heaven05]

32. yep

Griffin I read in the 60's. Tim Wise, heard of him now. On the list.

[freshwest]

49. Thanks, and I just posted an OP with Tim Wise's words here:

An Open Letter to the White Right, On the Occasion of Your Recent, Successful Temper Tantrum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016100594

It has a disclaimer by Wise for those who can't separate themselves from the 'right or privileged white' whenever they read the word 'white.' Then go into full-fledged victim/attack mode. Since this is a 'Democratic' and 'liberal' board, why anyone would leap in immediately to identify with the 'right' or the privileged, is a puzzle.

[freshwest]

53. Perhaps we need to post a disclaimer for what should be obvious, but somehow isn't:

*NOTE: PLEASE RE-READ THE TITLE OF THIS ESSAY BEFORE GOING FURTHER. NOTICE, IT IS AIMED AT THE WHITE RIGHT. NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE. ANYONE WHO THINKS THIS ESSAY IS “ANTI-WHITE PEOPLE,” AS OPPOSED TO THAT SEGMENT OF THE WHITE COMMUNITY THAT IS RIGHT WING, CANNOT READ PLAIN ENGLISH. PLEASE TRY AGAIN.*

~ Tim Wise

http://www.timwise.org/2010/11/an-open-letter-to-the-white-right-on-the-occasion-of-your-recent-successful-temper-tantrum/

[Louisiana1976]

89. That's right--right-wing whites are much more likely to be racist than others.

[freshwest]

93. Proven by their acts in elected office and media sources. So tired of the righties.

[WinkyDink]

22. The term is, of course, a generalization, to which there will always be individual exceptions. But

OVER-ALL, Whites have more privilege, more access, more chances at jobs and housing and education and social mobility than Blacks in America, by virtue of skin color.

Or have I imagined that the only President of color took centuries to get there?

[Lex]

23. There is inherent privilege in being wealthy. There is inherent privilege in being white.

You may not have the first kind, but that doesn't mean you don't have the second kind.

[Nye Bevan]

26. Great stuff. Lecturing to poor white people about how "privileged" they are

is a great way to take their minds off the rent they cannot afford and the medical bills they are struggling to pay. Just because they have no money does not mean that they should not be earnestly reminded to check their privilege on a regular basis.

[Lex]

36. Apples and oranges. Privilege based on wealth is not the same as privilege based on race.

It's really not that hard of a concept.

[Nye Bevan]

39. So, you would be perfectly comfortable starting a conversation about "white privilege"

with a white friend who had fallen on hard economic times and was struggling to avoid eviction? You would not perceive any insensitivity there?

[Lex]

40. Not talking about emotionalities.

Talking about the fact of privileges being based on race being different than privileges being based on wealth, and not conflating the two.

[Brigid]

51. I think that a poor white person who has struggled all his life . . .

Would be hard put to see the distinction.

[JI7]

110. not really, i know some gay people who are well off but i can see how as someone who is not gay

i have it much easier in many things and wont be discriminated/attacked based on that.

[eridani]

100. If they were in the same situation and were black, they'd be even worse off n/t

[99Forever]

28. The hang up for many...

... is the use of the word "privilege."

Now, before you go off on me, hear me out. There is absolutely no denying that people of color face obstacles every day that whites don't. Cops DO indeed stop and harass more blacks for no damn reason. HR departments DO look at applications with AA names with a more skeptical eye. An unarmed black male is so dangerous that you gun him down and have no repercussions, but white snipers aiming semi-automatic scoped rifles at Federal officials get a pass. And on and on. There is no real argument that this isn't what happens in everyday America.

What comes to mind for me, when I hear the word "privilege" applied to something, is what I was taught concerning the operating of a motor vehicle on public roads. There is no "right to drive, there is a privilege to drive." That "privilege" can be revoked with just cause or because you can't or don't meet the qualifications to safely operate a motor vehicle.

What I see happening in this nation, especially to young black males, is a revoking of their basic rights, without any real justifiable cause. To me at least, the fundamental rights are not revokable and calling them "privileges" puts them in such a category. It is just a terminology thing, I know, but I think it can be confusing.

I embrace the need for the change needed to our society and especially in the attitudes of those charged with policing our streets. Some of that can start by not talking past each other.

I don't know if I explained myself very well, but it was something that this OP made me think of.

[gollygee]

30. A great number of the privileges are just privileges and not civil rights

An African American young man scares many people in ways a white young man doesn't. There is no civil right called "having people not be scared of you for no reason other than your skin color." It is obviously still racism. And the young white man has the comparative privilege of not being seen as scary due to his skin color. There are tons of privileges that aren't issues of civil rights violations.

Here's the famous list of white privileges. How many involve civil rights violations? http://amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

I think this is one of the reasons why the term "white privilege" is effective at describing what it is. People can't say, "We've passed civil rights laws so we've done what we need to do." Racism can exist no matter how many civil rights laws are passed, or even how well those laws are followed. The only thing that can get rid of it is to make people recognize it, and too many white people don't see racism beyond civil rights violations. Racism is bigger than that and the term "white privilege" encompasses much more than just white people having their civil rights violated less often.

[99Forever]

31. And as I said in my post...

... being talked past, really doesn't help. Oh well, I tried.

Have a nice day.

[oberliner]

57. Is that list outdated?

I believe things have changed significantly to the point that at least several items on that list are no longer valid.

[gollygee]

58. I don't think things have changed significantly since the list was written

I didn't notice any as I glanced over it that didn't still seem relevant. Which ones seem outdated to you?

[oberliner]

64. A few jumped out at me

For instance this group:

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

I mean, I guess it depends on the school district - but certainly significant steps have been made in terms of the way curricular materials address the contributions of people of all races throughout history.

Along the same lines, items like this:

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

[gollygee]

67. I can see how some have improved

but I think 7 is right - overwhelmingly we learn about white people creating civilization.

8. Except for the month of February, still true.

9. I would be very surprised if it weren't still much much easier for white people to find publishers than for people of color.

26. There has been improvement here, though the percentage of people in posters, picture books, etc., that is white is much higher than in society.

44. There are specific courses and departments in many universities. How easy it is probably depends on what university you go to.

So I guess I see your point to some extent anyway.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

96. Are you black? If not, then you can't possibly know.

[oberliner]

97. It was a question

Feel free to share your insights if you have any.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

102. The answer is no. We continue to experience these things. I think the list does a pretty good job

detailing what most black persons face.

Back later with examples.

[Marrah_G]

33. The problem is the different meanings of the word privileged

Many here privileged and think wealthy or well off.

That is not the meaning of privilege in the phrase "white privilege"

[Tuesday Afternoon]

34. Excellent point. In the context of the subject the word: Privilege = Social Inequality

History
The concept of privilege dates back to 1910 when American sociologist and historian W. E. B. Du Bois published the essay The Souls of White Folks, in which he wrote that although African Americans were observant about white Americans and conscious of racial discrimination, white Americans did not think much about African Americans, nor about the effects of racial discrimination.[3][4][5] In 1935, Du Bois wrote about what he called the "wages of whiteness," which he described as including courtesy and deference, unimpeded admittance to all public functions, lenient treatment in court, and access to the best schools.[6]

Privilege refers to the idea that in human society, some groups benefit from unearned, largely-unacknowledged advantages that increase their power relative to that of others, thereby perpetuating social inequality. Privilege is generally invisible to those who have it, and a person's level of privilege is influenced by multiple factors including race, gender, age, sexual orientation, and social class, and changes over time.[1] Privilege has many benefits, including ones that are financial or material such as access to housing, education, and jobs,[1] as well as others that are emotional or psychological, such as a sense of personal self-confidence and comfortableness, or having a sense of belonging or worth in society.[2] It began as an academic concept, but has since become popular outside of academia.

more at link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_%28social_inequality%29

[YoungDemCA]

45. "other people's self-inflicted problems"

[lunatica]

46. Your argument seems to say that the privilieged is also 'self-inflicted'

You should educate yourself regarding history. You didn't do anything special to be 'privileged'. And you aren't anything special to deserve what others are denied. It just happens that you were born into a race that has the upper hand socially, economically and historically. Your ancestors weren't forced into slavery, kept deliberately illiterate and ignorant and pushed into ghettos like zoo animals. the biggest benefit you ever had was something people of color and women don't. You're a white man. If you don't succeed it's basically on you.

[lunatica]

48. So all the history is null because of your personal story?

Did you ancestors have the opportunity to lift themselves out of illiteracy and poverty? It's pretty much a given that a white person has a better chance of getting an education or lifting themselves out of poverty than any other racial counterpart.

And besides, no one is blaming you or your ancestors personally for the sins of your race.

[lunatica]

52. Sigh...

It's obviously all about the poor white victimized people...

[lunatica]

66. Actually it's more like bellyaching and whining

Because you and only you are the victim of 'those' people. The fact is that if you, as a white man, isn't privileged then you have a far greater chance, just because of the color of your skin, of getting ahead. That you do or not is besides the point and may be for legitimate reasons based on your own individual life's circumstances, but in broad terms other races have much less of a chance than you do because of the historical advantage of privilege that white men have created. You may not be one of them, and at the same time there are wealthy minority people, but they don't reflect or represent the great majority of their race.

[Gormy Cuss]

62. I think that 'advantage' would be a less loaded term but it's really not the point.

Saying that the term is the problem is often just another way to dismiss the concept (and I'm not pointing a finger at you here, just noting what I've observed in privilege discussions.)

It's similar to the way people focus on the choice of "homophobia" to describe the whole panoply of anti-gay rhetoric from naivety to straight up hatred. Homophobia is not the best choice of words from a linguistic POV but it is the preferred term, just as privilege is the preferred term in these discussions of inherent advantages based on a characteristic.

[boston bean]

74. I don't think it would make a shits bit of difference

to those who like to derail with never ending objections to the word "privilege". They would say the same thing and just insert the word "advantaged" or disadvantaged", but make the same argument.

just my humble opinion on the matter.

[Gormy Cuss]

77. Oh, I agree.

Doesn't matter what word or phrase is used, some will object to it rather than discuss the actual concept. It is a classic derailing technique and again, I'm not pointing the finger at all people who do this. I'd like to think that most are earnestly looking for a more palatable term for the general public. Most, but certainly not all.

[boston bean]

79. I hear you. And I agree 100%.

It's just those that you see doing what they do with the word "privilege" it wouldn't change a thing.

They want to focus on a word or a term and dissect the word or term, not the concept in order to derail, insult, and slyly promote what I believe in many cases are racist arguments.

I'm might start calling them the "term police". Turn about is fair play...

[QC]

75. Using academic terms and concepts in a non-academic discussion

seldom leads to anything useful.

It's like the people who declare that "evolution is just a theory," not knowing the scientists use the word in a very different way than the rest of us.

What is more, there are many kinds of privilege and they are most usefully discussed in terms of how they interact with one another. Attempt to do that, however, and chances are that you will be accused to trying to deny or minimize or or the other form of privilege or oppression. There are several examples in this thread. Thus, discussions of privilege around here generally devolve into arguments over who gets which medal in the Oppression Olympics.

[lunatica]

44. Ah yes! The one white man who thinks it's only about him

Well fella, for every one of you there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of minorities of all stripes.

[friendly_iconoclast]

69. It's obvious you didn't read the article, as the author is a woman...

...and understands the idea of intersectionality

... The concept of intersectionality recognizes that people can be privileged in some ways and definitely not privileged in others. There are many different types of privilege, not just skin-color privilege, that impact the way people can move through the world or are discriminated against. These are all things you are born into, not things you earned, that afford you opportunities that others may not have.

as you do not.

[lunatica]

72. I guess not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. It's easier to be a poor white person than a poor black person

It's also easier to be a working class white person than a working class black person and so on and so forth...So from that perspective "white privilege" exists.

However, it's easier to be a rich black person than a broke white person... This leads me to argue class comes with as many privileges as race.

[gollygee]

61. They both come with a great number of privileges

But IMO it's important not to compare them in that way. Both groups' struggles end up being minimized after people compare them, and it ignores the fact that a great number of people are lacking privilege in both areas.

But yeah I think they're both huge and very significant.

[Strelnikov_]

65. "They pit the lifers against the new boy . . . "

They pit the lifers against the new boy and the young against the old. The black against the white. Everything they do is to keep us in our place.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. having white privilege is not the same thing as being privileged. nt

[xchrom]

82. pulling the threads of class out of this can be difficult. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

83. not really. even a poor straight person has straight privilege over a gay person. Its similar for

race and gender.

white people are not targeted for being white. that doesn't mean each white person has a lovely life, just that they are not oppressed for their color.

[Hatchling]

73. Poor as I am.

I can buy something from a 7-11 or corner liquor store and not get shot walking home with it.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

78. I never liked McIntosh's enumerated list of 'privileges'

because many (most?) of them were things I didn't care about 'having'. I didn't read the names of crayons when I used them, I just chose the crayon I wanted for a given part of a drawing by looking at the colour of the crayon. The colour of a band-aid never matched my skin tone anyway, so I had no idea it was supposedly mimicking 'white skin'. I could care less about seeing 'white people' widely represented on tv or in newspapers, or about the fact that history taught in American schools was largely eurocentric/caucasian specific. So I thought that the McIntosh list fed into the problems with explaining 'white privilege' where people get hung up on how 'privilege' is used in everyday language, not the breakdown into the original meaning of 'private law'.

I really started to understand 'white privilege' only when people instead started talking about the bad things that DIDN'T happen to me because of my skin colour, and when I was shown items about practices like redlining, and statistics about housing, income, employment and wealth. McIntosh's list might be useful in teaching some folks about white privilege, but I think it actually gets in the way for others. Lots of people are going to think you're being weird if you start talking about crayons and bandaids as being 'privilege', but everyone can understand that not being harassed by police simply based on the lightness of your skin is pretty obvious. And when you're first teaching people about new concepts, it helps to start with the most obvious and blatant examples that they can grab onto, not more subtle and presumably less consequential ones.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

104. Yes. While those seemingly small things are insidiously powerful,

they may not be the best examples to get disadvantaged whites to recognize or care much about their supposed privilege.

In fact, I wonder if in some ways focusing on white privilege--in some cases--may support the RW's well oiled, massively-funded, multifaceted propaganda machine that encourages the underprivileged to blame other underprivileged people, instead of banding together and fighting back against the greater enemy.

[daleanime]

81. K&R....

[ck4829]

84. Why I think white people think that it denies they suffered/suffer when they hear white privilege

When somebody really did or continues have it rough, they don't want to think they're being told, oh you didn't suffer.

This is partially a result of the black-and-white thinking (In every sense of the word) ingrained into our culture (Another thing that people don't see because it is everywhere yet so subtle), everything for so many people is black OR white, good OR evil, on OR off, normal OR chaos, etc. And one of those things would be privileged status OR had a rough life. Yes, there is white privilege and these people can have it rough. And yes, we can deal with both.

Unfortunately, I have seen this in my family, I grew up in poor conditions, I don't have those psycho right wingers in my family like how some DU'ers have, but a couple are pretty conservative. They are afraid of the playing field being equal and they think they have it as hard as any non-white person has.

White privilege helps white people, but it's effect on the poor white person can be complex to say the least. It's a 'free luxury', something that entertains and stirs the emotions. There's the fear of a non-white person taking your job, taking your culture, your neighborhood, etc. The poor white person is getting screwed over, but it's that white privilege that prevents them from seeing the politicians and the media doing the damage, and instead they want to see a minority doing the attacking. It's that white privilege itself that is an enemy of the poor white person.

[Louisiana1976]

90. Excellent post. K&R

[U4ikLefty]

94. Are you talking about literal white privilege?

[napkinz]

106. ...

[Chathamization]

109. Pretty decent article. All inequality of outcome is a result of inequality of opportunity, in my

opinion. The author seems to get about halfway there (disagree with them about "things you earned&quot , but props for expanding the discussion a bit. People need to remember the old adage about not judging someone without walking a mile in their shoes. It seems that we mostly fail at this.