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Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:09 AM

Michael Browns autopsy diagram.....

This thought came to me when reviewing....If you do a visual image of raising the arms upward above the head, in a surrendering posture...the target is clearly the head....point being...he surrendered to the officer. My opinion.

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Reply Michael Browns autopsy diagram..... (Original post)
FarPoint Aug 2014 OP
SaltyBro Aug 2014 #1
Uben Aug 2014 #2
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #6
madokie Aug 2014 #10
PoliticAverse Aug 2014 #11
Uben Aug 2014 #12
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #13
Uben Aug 2014 #14
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #15
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #16
HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #30
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #32
HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #35
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #37
mcar Aug 2014 #39
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #41
HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #42
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #44
HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #46
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #48
justiceischeap Aug 2014 #49
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #50
Enrique Aug 2014 #8
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #17
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #18
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #20
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #21
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #22
Bettie Aug 2014 #23
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #24
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #33
HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #36
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #43
HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #45
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #47
alsame Aug 2014 #3
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #7
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #19
alsame Aug 2014 #25
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #28
alsame Aug 2014 #29
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #34
HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #38
Ms. Toad Aug 2014 #40
a kennedy Aug 2014 #4
FarPoint Aug 2014 #5
HereSince1628 Aug 2014 #9
Bettie Aug 2014 #26
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #27
HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #31

Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:13 AM

1. Not opinion but fact

This young man was kneeling and pleading for the officer not to shoot him, then he was executed.

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #1)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:16 AM

2. How is this "fact" substantiated?

Is there video or pictures? Or is it word of mouth?

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Response to Uben (Reply #2)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:34 AM

6. Shot through the top of the head.

 

That is not consistent with anything other than a man of his height dropping to his knees.

He was surrendering and the cop, knowingly and with malice, executed him.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:51 AM

10. As I've been saying

the shot in the top of the head could have been after he had already been shot and was falling to the ground

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:54 AM

11. You could be shot in the top of the head if you are falling forward towards the shooter. n/t

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:57 AM

12. We're on the same side here, but....

...you are jumping to conclusions. I'm not a forensics expert, and have not seen the report, but Brown could have been falling forward when the fatal shot was fired. Doesn't mean he wasn't executed, just another possibility. As far as the eye-witness accounts, I have to take them with a grain of salt because for days we were told he was shot twice in the back, which the autopsy revealed was not true. I feel kinda stupid for repeating those eyewitness accounts now. Yes, I know the bullets fired at his back probably missed their mark, but still, the accounts were skewed. Since the autopsy revealed the head shot was probably the fatal wound, it seems reasonable that Brown had fallen forward after sustaining 4 to 5 shots before the fatal shot.

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Response to Uben (Reply #12)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 09:03 AM

13. That would be consistent with a man dropping to his knees.

 

I don't think the shot to the top of his head was the fatal shot.

I think the shot to his eye was the fatal shot and that shot came just before he began falling to his knees, when the final shot was fired to the top of his head.

Now, look at the autopsy chart, but move the arm up with it remaining facing forward and notice the firing pattern:



That's a damned tight pattern for a pistol at 35 feet.

And not one of those shots were fired at close range.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #13)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 09:18 AM

14. I agree it might have happened that way.....

...and I do believe Wilson killed Brown illegally. I just have to stop repeating stuff that is hearsay. The autopsy is fact in that it shows the wounds and paints "possible" scenarios of how the events occurred. "Possible" and "probable" are not definitive, therefore I have to wait until all facts are in before I will be convinced how the killing actually took place.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:01 AM

15. Read the NYT article - which quotes the doctor the family retained to do the autopsy.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #15)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:03 AM

16. Only if he charged like a bull. eom

 

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #15)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 11:43 AM

30. The victim who initially pulled away and tried to run...

 

... then decides to turn around and (unarmed) charges at a cop who is shooting at him? That's a rather far-fetched fantasy.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #30)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 11:53 AM

32. Tell it to the doctor retained by the Brown family.

He is the one who said the wounds were consistent with Brown charging Wilson. I'm merely quoting what he said.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #32)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:06 PM

35. No, thats an inaccurate quote.

 

When asked if it was POSSIBLE he said yes. He also indicated the fatal shot could have been on his knees with head down. The second case is far more likely, charging the officer shooting at him is a suicidal fantasy.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:10 PM

37. It is an accurate quote.

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

The quote is from Dr. Baden, the physician retained by Brown's family, in the NY Times article published just before midnight last night.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #37)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:14 PM

39. Also consistent with the victim giving up

As the doctor clearly states. Why highlight only one clause?

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Response to mcar (Reply #39)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:17 PM

41. Because I was responding to an allegation that I was misquoting the doctor.

I highlighted the clause which demonstrates I was not misquoting.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #37)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:18 PM

42. "It can be because he's giving up"

 

Why didn't you highlight that statement? Perhaps because of your prejudice you've already determined guilt?

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #42)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:20 PM

44. Because I was responding to someone who alleged I was misquoting -

Context is important - read the conversation you are jumping into - you probably could have figured out why I highlighted the portion I did - it is the portion which demonstrated I was not misquoting.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #44)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:26 PM

46. No. You have consistantly omitted that portion of the quote.

 

You are cherry-picking only the parts of the doctor's statements that support your notion of predetermined guilt. Thats deliberately taking the quote out of context, and dishonest. Don't sit here and pretend to be impartial, when your actions indicate a high degree of prejudice in the case.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #46)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:33 PM

48. What portion of the quote have I omitted?

You have now twice alleged that I have omitted portion of the quote. I have consistently included the complete quote, including the subsequent sentence, which carefully disclaims any suggestion that the scenarios described by the doctor assign blame or justify the shooting.

My bias is toward dealing with all of the facts. When someone alleges partial facts, I provide the rest - that the doctor posed two scenarios. It does not do anyone any favors to pretend the doctor hired by the Brown's family did not say what he said. The other two autopsy reports, to the extent you believe bias plays a role in the reports, will likely be more damning. Do you really think it is a winning strategy to say we don't like those two reports at all because we know they're going to lie, and we only like parts of the one our side commissioned?

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #44)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:40 PM

49. You're right, context is important and highlighting only one portion of a quote

is quoting out of context. Dr. Baden surmised two scenarios, you've chosen to latch onto the least obvious cause... a man who decided to run for his life is then going to turn around and charge back at the man he's initially running from? Do you have a clue how survival instinct even works?

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #49)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:01 PM

50. Someone accused me of misquoting Dr. Baden.

What don't you get about responding to that person with the full quote - highlighting the portion which contradicts the accusation that I was misquoting? Why possible insight would it add to highlight the portion of the quote about which there is no dispute?

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Response to Uben (Reply #2)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:38 AM

8. it comes from an analysis of the autopsy

and eyewitness accounts. Maybe the analysis is good, I don't know. I wouldn't call it a fact however.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:04 AM

17. The private doctor who performed the second autopsy

did the analysis.

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #17)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:05 AM

18. How many criminals charge like a bull preparing to head butt the cop with the gun?

 



A pathologist on CNN laughed off the possibility of him charging because of that this morning.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #18)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:10 AM

20. Perhaps someone who figures he's going to die anyway?

The point is - it is one of two scenarios described by the private doctor the family retained to perform a second autopsy. It is stupid at this point, to pretend it is not a possible scenario. Of the three autopsies being performed, if you assume bias on the part of the individual doing the autopsy, this is the one which would most likely be biased in favor of Brown.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #20)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:11 AM

21. Now you're really reaching.

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #21)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:13 AM

22. Tell it to the doctor the family paid to do the autopsy.

Your problem is with him - I am merely quoting what he said about the two scenarios which could have resulted in the wounds.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #21)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:14 AM

23. Some people are really invested in

making the cop an innocent victim and making victims into something other than that.

Victim blaming seems to be a new national pastime.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #23)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:14 AM

24. I've noticed.

 

I've been putting them on ignore.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #23)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 11:54 AM

33. Acknowledging what the doctor retained by the family actually said

about the autopsy is hardly making the cop an innocent victim.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #21)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:08 PM

36. I'll say.

 

The poster is spinning a far-fetched fantasy.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #36)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:18 PM

43. Quoting the doctor retained by the family is not spinning a far-fetched fantasy. n/t

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #43)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:21 PM

45. When you use a partial quote to support your preconceived guilt...

 

...it is quite evident you are highly prejudiced.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #45)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:27 PM

47. What part of the quote did I leave out?

In fact, if you will look at the times I have quoted that passage, even when I was only responding to allegations, I was careful to include the subsequent sentence, "He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting" - which I certainly would not have if selectively editing to support a conclusion that Wilson was innocent.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5404330
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5404323
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5403309

In general, my responses have been to those using partial quotes (or ignoring completely) what the doctor himself said. I happen to think it is important to deal with reality - and the reality is that the doctor retained by Brown's family posed two scenarios that could explain the wounds.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:20 AM

3. There was

a shot to the top of the head.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-ferguson-michael-brown-20140817-story.html

One of the wounds was on top of Brown’s head, Gray said.

“To have a shot that’s at a 90-degree angle from the top of his skull to the bottom of his chin, almost vertical, that sounds like an officer standing over him,” he said.

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Response to alsame (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:34 AM

7. "Gangland style execution" is how such a murder would be described byt the media.

 

Had this been anybody other than a cop committing the murder, that is.

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Response to alsame (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:05 AM

19. Or - as the doctor who performed the private autopsy on behalf of Brown's parents said,

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #19)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:15 AM

25. I tend to think he was

falling over at the time of this last and fatal shot. He had already been shot in the head and was probably going down.

Hopefully the Fed autopsy is more conclusive.

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Response to alsame (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:21 AM

28. He may well have been -

but I don't think it is smart, at this point, to be insisting that the only possibility is an execution - when (1) that was not one of scenarios suggested and (2) the charging scenario was suggested - by the doctor who performed the autopsy which is MOST likely to be biased in favor of Brown.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #28)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:25 AM

29. He was murdered in

cold blood regardless of how the shots were fired. IMO.

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Response to alsame (Reply #29)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:04 PM

34. From anything I've seen, an unjustified killing.

I don't know that I would go so far as cold blooded murder. I suspect more bigotry induced irrational fear and stupidity. Brazen gangland style execution by a police officer, in the middle of the day, in front of potentially hundreds of witnesses makes no sense. Being irrationally scared out of his gourd by the bogeymen in his own mind, and by having gotten himself into a situation where he had escalated the situation, and as a consequence using far more force than was appropriate for the situation makes sense.

It doesn't justify it - but it is also different than cold blooded murder.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #28)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:12 PM

38. No. The doctor did not suggest he was charging.

 

The doctor was asked if it was POSSIBLE. He answered yes, based solely on the trajectory. The same trajectory is consistant with falling to his knees, which is the witnesses accounts.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #38)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:16 PM

40. Read the NYT article from last night,

which was contemporaneously released with the autopsy.

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

It was not a grudging acknowledgement in response to a question- it was one of two options he provided.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:23 AM

4. and he was shot SIX TIMES!!!

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Response to a kennedy (Reply #4)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:31 AM

5. Some talking points on cable news try to say officer tried to just wound him first...hitting the arm

Ahhh not in my review... I see arms raised, target was the head having inner right arm being struck trying to hit head....With arms raised, shots are all in same close proximity... The anatomical autopsy diagram is just that..not about body posture during the shooting. We need to look outside the box.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:44 AM

9. What teevee taught me about shootings...

People trained to shoot in self-defense are trained to shoot at the center of body mass. It's typical for less than 1/3's of bullets fired by police to hit their targets during actual incidents.









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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #9)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:16 AM

26. The accuracy issue also explains why

None of the shots as he was running away hit.

Witnesses may have seen the officer shooting at him, but he didn't hit until the young man stopped moving.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:21 AM

27. The autopsy brings up questions as to the correctness of 'eyewitnesses'.

From what they're saying on TV, all shots were from the front. Pretty much every witness claimed that he was shot a time or two from the front, shot at from the back, turned around, was shot again from the front, then shot a bunch while on the ground.

He was lying on his front on the ground, so I'm not sure how he could be shot from the front while lying face down on the ground.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #27)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 11:52 AM

31. Any shots fired while he was running missed.

 

All the shots that hit him appear to be when he stopped and turned to face the officer...ie: he was surrendering. Appears to be a pretty clear case of murder.

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