So Far, the autopsy is damning to officer Darren Wilson.. all shots from the front

[uponit7771]

The autopsy is damning to the officer...

Proves NO DOUBT that the bullets came from the FRONT of brown and not the back

There are only TWO TIMES in the incident that the FPD or \ and witness's say Brown COULD have been facing the officer

1. While near truck
2. While 35 feet away WITH HANDS IN THE AIR

Remember, Mike Browns hands were in the air BEFORE he turned to face the officer...

The shots on MBs right are are consistent with a hands in the air angle unless the bullets fired were magic bullets and just got him at the correct angle.

MBs hands were in the air while being shot by Darren Wilson...

Kept me up for second...

Anyone see a different perspective?

tia

[Ecumenist]

1. I agree with you wholeheartedly but I suspect that the cops and their apologists will claim

the magical bullets...trust me...

[AngryOldDem]

2. No, there is no other perspective or conclusion.

But that still doesn't mean that justice will ultimately be done.

Brown was clearly not in a threatening position.

[MohRokTah]

3. First degree murder.

Definitely. No doubt about it. This is premeditated murder in the first degree.

[pnwmom]

6. I'm pretty sure this isn't the definition of premeditated murder,

as heinous as it was. There's no evidence that the officer planned it out ahead of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murder

Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully and intentionally causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension.

[uponit7771]

7. There doesn't need to be but a second of "planning" for it to be premedidated...

...there was no reason to shoot brown after he turned around with his hands in the air

[w4rma]

16. Second degree murder or Voluntary manslaughter is much easier to prove

And both are probably more accurate than a first degree charge. I would not be unhappy with a charge of second degree that is plead down to manslaughter.

[pnwmom]

18. That depends on what the law is in Missouri. This varies state by state. n/t

[H2O Man]

24. Exactly right.

"Premeditated" does not mean, in the context of law, what people assume it means. It does not suggest that the officer had planned this for days or weeks.

What it does mean is that, at the time this kid turned with his hands in the air, the officer decided to shoot ....and keep shooting. Which is, without question, exactly what he did.

(I saw on the news where a friend of the cop-thug said, "He never intended for this to happen." No shit. He hoped he could murder a black youth, and that society would not take note. He anticipated his family and friends saying, "Our hero! What a tough job he has! So dangerous!&quot

[onecaliberal]

60. Definitely.

Especially after Michael
Stopped running away and turned to face the officer. NO reason to continue shooting, yet he did.

[MohRokTah]

14. Missouri law

First degree murder, penalty--person under sixteen years of age not to receive death penalty.

565.020. 1. A person commits the crime of murder in the first degree if he knowingly causes the death of another person after deliberation upon the matter.

2. Murder in the first degree is a class A felony, and the punishment shall be either death or imprisonment for life without eligibility for probation or parole, or release except by act of the governor; except that, if a person has not reached his sixteenth birthday at the time of the commission of the crime, the punishment shall be imprisonment for life without eligibility for probation or parole, or release except by act of the governor.

Darren Wilson saw a man surrendering before him and he fired multiple times. He deliberately murdered the man,

Murder in the first degree.

[pnwmom]

19. In many states, deliberation requires a rational thought process, not an impulsive acting-out.

I don't know what the situation is in Missouri.

But deliberation and deliberate do not mean the same thing. Deliberation means a person has rationally decided to carry out the murder.

Deliberate means that the murder was non-accidental; it was on purpose.

[MohRokTah]

21. In all states, premeditation can be less than a second long just before the murder.

The autopsy demonstrates deliberation. Six shots. Head shot from a downward trajectory. That means Michael Brown was going down as he was shot in the top of the head. That is deliberate, and thus murder in the first.

I want to be clear, Darren Wilson will not be charged with first degree murder even though that is what the evidence shows he committed. He is a cop, and he will most likely walk free from this murder because he is a cop.

[pnwmom]

46. I don't believe it, but the private pathologist hired by the family has already said

that the head position could indicate what you say -- or it could indicate that he was charging the police officer.

In any case, it isn't true that in all states premeditation can occur for less than a second. But I don't know what the law is in Missouri, the only state that matters.

[MohRokTah]

47. A pathologist on CNN explained it this way this morning.

If he charged, it meant he bent over and charged like a bull for the head shot to have been that perpendicular due to Brown's height.

He then laughed off the possibility because nobody ever does that.

[pnwmom]

48. I agree it's unlikely. But the family's pathologist said it, so it will certainly be used in court.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/first-degree-murder-overview.html

Deliberation and Premeditation

Whether a killer acted with the deliberation and premeditation required for first degree murder can only be determined on a case by case basis. The need for deliberation and premeditation does not mean that the perpetrator must contemplate at length or plan far ahead of the murder. Time enough to form the conscious intent to kill and then act on it after enough time for a reasonable person to second guess the decision typically suffices. While this can happen very quickly, deliberation and premeditation must occur before, and not at the same time as, the act of killing.

- See more at: http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/first-degree-murder-overview.html#sthash.BPAaB3ca.dpuf

[VanGoghRocks]

76. All respect to you! If Wilson were all hopped up on speed or steroids, however, he might be

able to plead 'diminished capacity.'

I wonder whether Wilson will choose that route or whether he'll choose the route of being the great White hope, martyr for the cause of white supremacy.

[Beaverhausen]

61. Pointing a gun at someone and shooting repeatedly is planning

Why else would someone do that?

[Bettie]

41. But, he's a cop

so, there will probably not even be any charges. He'll be on a desk job for a few months and then be back on the streets.

[MohRokTah]

42. Pretty much. eom

[FarPoint]

4. When did the autopsy report get released?

I would like to see it.

[FarPoint]

5. Okay.... I went to Late Breaking News Forum.

Now watching news.....I'm getting with the program.

[mythology]

8. Would those be the same witnesses who said he was shot in the back?

The autopsy, based on what's currently released, doesn't prove anything one way or another as to whether a struggle over the gun ensued. It also doesn't prove how far away Brown was since they didn't have access to his clothing to test that for gun shot residue.

Another reason his hands could have been raised was due to an ongoing struggle over the gun.

Even the medical examiner doesn't think that this autopsy is the final word.

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting.

“We need more information; for example, the police should be examining the automobile to see if there is gunshot residue in the police car,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

[madokie]

11. Or it could be because he's falling towards the road from the other wounds

the bullet in the top of the head is what I'm referring too here.

[onecaliberal]

62. Yes probably

Falling forward after being shot in the eye and having the bullet travel down to the clavicle.

[BklnDem75]

20. Was he charging or was he struggling with the gun?

Charging means distance, struggling means no distance. No bullets in the back only means the witnesses were wrong about Michael actually getting hit by the shots made by Wilson. Michael's reaction to getting shot at would make any reasonable person believe he got hit. Wilson still shot at a fleeing suspect.

[onecaliberal]

63. In what realm does it make sense to anyone

That Michael would charge at a police man who is firing a barrage of bullets at him. Where is the common sense?

[BklnDem75]

64. It doesn't make sense at all...

After hearing the audio of one witness, it sounds like they either misunderstood or hoping really hard that someone would charge a cop unloading on him. They're assuming the term 'double back' means he was still running when he turned around.

[onecaliberal]

68. When he turned the bullets

Hit his eye and head. It dropped him.

[weissmam]

25. they can tell distance fired from entry wounds , have been able to do that for a long time

[HooptieWagon]

32. No gun residue on Brown, or in police car.

Brown was shot from a distance, not during a struggle for the gun.

[66 dmhlt]

45. Got a link for that? The NY Times autopsy said Dr. Baden could NOT tell ...

Because he didn't have access to the clothing OR the police car.

He did say there was no residue on Mr. Brown himself - but didn't have access to his clothes.

[HooptieWagon]

49. Its right on the front page.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025403591

[mythology]

67. That isn't a sourced cite

The New York Times spoke to the medical examiner. One of those is more likely to be accurate.

[Schema Thing]

35. you mean shot "at" from behind?

[Ms. Toad]

44. This isn't the ME autopsy - it is the private one commissioned by Brown's parents. n/t

[lululu]

9. shots from the front

You would have preferred he was shot in the back? Zero excuse for shooting someone in the back, plenty of scenarios where someone can justifiably be shot in the front.

[uponit7771]

55. please read post... ALL witness's saw brown with his hands up BEFORE turning to LEO

[uponit7771]

54. Being gun down while surrendering is much more damning than running away IMHO...

... there's no misinterpretation of Mikes hands in the air surrendering to LEO

[treestar]

12. It undermines those witnesses who said he was shot in the back

If I recall right, that's what some of them were saying.

[uponit7771]

57. No it doesn't, all of them say there was a "jerk" from brown after a shot or a sudden movement

... not in line with him running. That could be misinterpreted see the cop was shooting at brown as he was fleeing

Having hands in the air BEFORE Brown turned around was NOT misinterpreted.

[Garion_55]

13. i think the cop shot at his back but missed

maybe once or twice. and brown could hear the bullets whizzing by.

we still dont know how many shots the cop fired and where all the bullets went to

[OneGrassRoot]

15. ^^^ THIS ^^^

The witnesses didn't say all the bullets hit as Michael was running away and Wilson was still shooting; they merely said he kept firing, until a bullet connected (or at least connected enough to stop Michael, at which point he turned around).

So if it is proven undoubtedly that there are no shots from the back, it doesn't necessarily go against witness accounts.

[hexola]

23. Or fired a warning shot as they walked away?

I like the idea that a warning shot might have been fired - that could explain witnesses who thought they saw him shot in the back...

The time between the warning shot and the fatal shots would have been seconds - so a witness might not truly know what happened.

[Separation]

27. No such thing as a warning shot.

[JustAnotherGen]

33. +1

[uponit7771]

50. Been there...

[Fred Drum]

17. i think a shot in the back would be more damning

although, if they do the trajectories and you have bullet(s) going through his arm and into his head

i'd say his hands were up

[Separation]

28. Dr. Baden said it entered his head

Came out of the jaw, and entered in his clavicle. IMO this shot probably came as he was falling forward after the first head shot.

[hexola]

22. I'd like to know how many shots were fired vs hits...warning shot as they walked away?

Was there a warning shot(s) - that happened while Brown had his back to the officer?

That could explain the "shot in the back" thing...

[JustAnotherGen]

34. See above

No such thing as warning shots.


Maybe it IS allowed in MO? But down in Florida a woman fired one and got time for it . . .

[Schema Thing]

36. but you are allowed to miss

[JustAnotherGen]

40. Only if it is accidentally on purpose

[maced666]

26. All from the front? Sorry. Not what witnesses

Reported. Multiple eye witnesses report him shot in back as he was on knees surrendering. Did these people lie?! ALL of them?

[cleduc]

29. My recollection was some of the eyewitness versions against the officer generally

implied that Brown was fleeing with the officer in pursuit when Brown was shot in the back and then turned to face the officer to surrender. I'd have to check their words more carefully before I can be absolutely sure of that.

Dorian Johnson did feel that Brown was wounded first by the gunshot in the car.

The no gun shot residue on his head wounds with Brown's cap found a good distance from his body goes somewhat against my impression of Dorian Johnson's account suggesting the officer was standing over Brown when he fired the fatal shots. Not totally discounting it but it gives me some pause.

[uponit7771]

58. That was their interpretation based of the "jerk" movement of brown which is logical seeing

... the officer was firing at him as he was running.

There's LITTLE interpreation of Brown stopping... put his hands in the air and then turning around and getting shot by the leo...

[TBF]

30. I'm glad the feds are doing an investigation -

finally Holder does something correctly.

[liberal N proud]

31. Not the first time we have seen magic bullets

[LisaL]

37. Hah?

Seems to be the opposite to me. The witnesses that claim Brown was shot when running away appears to have been not accurate, which then puts their testimony into question.

[uponit7771]

51. No, it doesn't... seeing they interepreted a hit from the back when Brown "jerked" there were

... and that would be a logical interpretation seeing the cop was firing at brown while he was running away.

Also more people who saw Brown with his hands up BEFORE turning to the cop... that's a wrap if it's entered in court... the people saw brown surrender and get shot multiple times afterwards by the LEO

What is the cop going to say?! that he didn't know whether Brown had his hands up or not!?

No credibility was lost by the witness's interpretation imho

[VanGoghRocks]

77. That's why Wilson's defenders have only recently started trumpeting this

'charging towards' bullshit that no eyewitness testimony supports, except for some vague hearsay about Brown 'doubling back' (whatever the fuck that means).

My guess is Wilson fired one or two shots at Brown while he was fleeing, such that they caused Brown to stop 'with a jerk' (that might have seemed to witnesses as though he was hit in the back) and caused him to surrender by turning around with his hands in the air.

The only defense Wilson has now to make this justifiable defense is that Brown was 'charging toward him'. If Brown is moving away or stationary, Wilson is guilty of at least 2nd Degree murder.

[uponit7771]

78. In street talk it means turn around and go the other way or turn around...

[Nye Bevan]

38. Would it have been less damning to the officer if all six shots had been to Brown's back? (nt)

[uponit7771]

52. No, because brown had his hands up in surrender BEFORE he turned around to face the cop...

...so... while his hands are up (which is much easier to see than if he was shot in the back) the cop shot brown dead

[Rex]

39. Well that proves that the officer shot Brown while his hands were in the air.

Very damaging evidence against the cop. No wonder he fled like a coward.

[Ms. Toad]

43. Depending his posture -

the hand and forearm shot could have been with his back to Wilson. Quite a few people have their palms and forearms facing back, at least when walking. (Less likely when running.)

[uponit7771]

53. VERY good point, it could've been either one...

[Rex]

56. Could it be possible the bullets to the arm spun him around to face the officer

and then the last two shots hit him in the head...as he was facing the officer?

[Ms. Toad]

59. Probably not enough momentum for that -

given the relative weights of his body v. arm - but if he had been hit in the hand/arm while he had his back to the officer he might have jerked - as several witnesses reported and intentionally turned around to surrender.

[badtoworse]

65. I don't believe the shots were fired from 35 feet

Given the adrenaline, the fact that Brown was likely moving and that the shots were likely fired over a span of a few seconds, six hits at 35 feet seems unlikely to me. I've never been in that situation, so I can't say from experience, but I believe that Brown had to be a lot closer than that to be hit that many times.

[procon]

66. Some forensic expert on MSNBC made the assertion that

it was quite possible that some of the wounds in Brown's arm were from shots fired behind him. Remember that the autopsy diagram presents the body in a supine position with the arms rotated and the palms facing upward and the first impression makes it appear that those wounds came from the front.

When standing, the arms are naturally positioned with the palms facing toward the body. When running the arms are pumping and they are lifted away from the body which would seem to indicate he was shot from behind.

[uponit7771]

75. Yes, the angle of the right arm running and the bullets holes would be consisten with being shot ...

...from behind

[ecstatic]

70. No excuse for either action--shooting him in the back or front.

The evidence shows Mike was shot and killed while visibly unarmed and facing the officer/murderer.

Also, I believe the witnesses who say Mike was being shot at in the back (apparently the shots missed?). If someone is fleeing, there is no need to shoot them in the back.

[cyberswede]

72. You seem pretty concerned, Unconcerned.

But it doesn't really matter, since you won't be here very long.

[cui bono]

73. You would believe a witness over an autopsy?

This is the autopsy that the family got done, so that should eliminate any fear of a cover up and witnesses are known to sometimes get some of the facts wrong or to create memories that didn't really happen.
http://www.businessinsider.com/scott-fraser-ted-talk-2012-11

I would say you have to believe the autopsy.

I hope they don't discount Dorian Johnson's account because he said that Brown was shot in the back.

[cleduc]

79. I have tried hard to be objective with this issue - on both sides

I still do not feel I can argue with Dr Baden declaring the autopsy inconclusive. He'd know a heck of a lot more about that than I ever will.

But while digesting the press conference and NYT article on this autopsy, I must confess that I'm having some trouble with it. It gets increasingly harder to defend Wilson.

Innocent until proven otherwise:
It looks like Brown stole the cigarillos (not good for Brown)
Wilson allegedly asks Brown & Johnson to get off the road - maybe rudely (maybe not good for Wilson or Brown)
It looks like Wilson fingered Brown for the cigarillos after he started to drive off
It looks like Brown got into an altercation with a police officer (not good for Brown)
It looks like Wilson got into an altercation with Brown (maybe not entirely good for Wilson on the basis of how he handled himself or executed his attempt to arrest Brown)
Wilson allegedly shot Brown accidentally during the struggle at the cruiser according to Johnson (maybe not good for Wilson)
Brown runs away from a police officer trying to apprehend him (not good for Brown)
Wilson allegedly gets out of his cruiser and starts after Brown
Rightly or wrongly, Wilson fires more shots - some that hit Brown's hands/arms/secondary chest (ignoring the head shots for the moment)

Up to this point in time, there's no catastrophic thing. No big felony. No certain loss of life. If it ended there without loss of life, we'd very probably never have heard about it.

In my opinion, only two shots are really key: the head shots.

So far, four or more witnesses maintain Brown stopped and was submissive or put his hands up.
So far, two less credible sources maintain Brown headed back towards the officer.

One head shot entered above his right eye and headed downwards through his jaw into his collarbone area.
The other head shot entered the crown of his skull and was apparently the most devastating.

Brown stood 6'4", 292lbs - a big guy.
Wilson apparently is tallish and lanky, but not significantly taller than Brown that I'm aware and he may well be shorter. If he spread his feet when he shot, as is recommended procedure to steady the gun, the gun would be even lower.

Where I get into trouble is trying to imagine the trajectory of both those shots. Brown's head would have to be lower than where Wilson had his gun if the bullet went fairly straight through from his eye through his jaw. And it would also have to be pretty low for Wilson's bullet to not deflect off the crown of his skull bone - to instead pierce the skull and rattle around in his head.

If Brown had been shot in the gut, he might have doubled over. But the other shots either hit high which would tend to make him more erect or near the end of his arms which wouldn't do much to move the body and head.

So the only likely "simple" way I can imagine without writing a book here on all the possible permutations, would be if Brown charged Wilson, lowering his head like a bull as he ran towards him - and the first head shot didn't knock him off that line of attack.

The projected trajectory of those bullets going into his head is probably going to be a big deal.

I've tried my best to be objective and will continue to do so but it's getting even harder to defend Wilson with this autopsy report.