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Bill Clinton Slams Hamas For Using International Money To Dig Tunnels; And Store Rockets In Schools
Speaking at a memorial service for Tribune-Review owner Richard Mellon Scaife, Clinton lamented the series of foreign policy crises that have cropped up from Eastern Europe to the Middle East in recent weeks.
“How could the people in Gaza, who started rocketing Israel, think that it was OK to use international aid money to dig tunnels to increase their ability to destabilize the region and kill people?” Clinton told about 150 Trib Total Media employees at the memorial service at Scaife’s boyhood home in Ligonier.
“How could they put rockets in a school to follow a deliberate strategy to force the deaths of their own civilians so as to make Israel look bad in the world?” Clinton said.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/252783/bill-clinton-slams-hamas-for-using-international-money-to-dig-tunnels-and-store-rockets-in-schools.html
Well said!
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FarPoint
(12,288 posts)I thought the Mellon family was Irish? 
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 5, 2014, 02:09 AM - Edit history (1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_W._MellonI do NOT know the religion of Richard Mellon Scaife, just a comment that the Mellon Family was Episcopal, as the Church of England is known in the US.
The two Religious groups, that oppose each other in Ireland were the Reform Church (Congregationalists, Presbyterian etc) and the Catholic Church. Both were discriminated against prior to the mid 1800s by the Government of Ireland who wanted everyone to be Church of Ireland (The Irish branch of the Church of England). Many of the same laws that applied to Catholics, also applied to Presbyterians and other non-Church of Ireland church members, until such time as England decided it needed allies in Ireland and that meant the Scot-Irish who tended to be Presbyterian (Or other related Reform Church).
Reform Church is a term used to describe churches that follow the Reform movement started by John Calvin. It was huge in Low land Scotland, and it is from Lowland Scotland that many Protestant moved from to Ireland in the 1500s and 1600s.
Many of the same laws that applied the Catholics in Ireland, also applied to members of the Reform Church in Ireland, but were just not enforced as strictly as they were against Catholics. The main reason for this was the Irish Government always used the fear of the Reform Church members of a Catholic take over of the Government.
A Catholic take over of Ireland was feared by members of the Reform Church for the title to their lands and homes came from the King of England, but only after the King had stolen the lands from the Catholics that had owned the land. Thus many of these Presbyterian landowners greatest fear was NOT that the Catholic Church would force them to become Catholic but such a Catholic Government would undo the theft of land and return the land to the decedents of the original owners. Thus Presbyterian of Ireland opposed the Catholics getting control of the Government.
Side note: One of my "Favorite" laws passed by the English parliament during the 1700s was a law that said any land in Ireland had be divided among the sons of the deceased previous owner, UNLESS one of them joined the Church of Ireland, then it all went to him. This law applied to both Catholics and Presbyterians. The "Protestant" in the law had to join the Church of Ireland not a Presbyterian Church to be able to steal all of the land.
As I started Mellon was of the Church of Ireland and thus tied in with England. What the family did in Ireland is unknown to me, but I would NOT be surprised the American Branch started out when its ancestor turned from Catholicism or Presbyterianism to the Church of Ireland, to steal all of his brother's lands (I am a native Pittsburgher, we still blame Mellon for the Great Depression).
FarPoint
(12,288 posts)
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)More of it should go to relieve the suffering of the Palestinians.
madville
(7,404 posts)While the population suffered Arafat managed to squirrel away over a billion dollars, keep his wife in Paris on $100,000 a month allowance, etc.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Bill Clinton: Well, first of all Hamas was perfectly well aware of what would happen if they started raining rockets in Israel. They fired a thousand of them. And they have a strategy designed to force Israel to kill their own civilians so that the rest of the world will condemn them. Now, I believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu could and should make a comprehensive peace agreement with the Palestinians. I believe if he did it, and he did it with either President Abbas or with his coalition, if in return for Hamas' renunciation of terror and recognition of Israel's right to exist, I believe 60% of the people of Israel would support it.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/impressed-with-narendra-modi-s-economic-policies-bill-clinton-tells-ndtv-full-transcript-560395
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I'm not sure if there has been definitive proof either way.
Larkspur
(12,804 posts)and it was shells fired from an Israeli navy boat.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Absolutely horrible. No excuse for this.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)sounded to say that five missiles ended up going off course and hitting the exact same building at the same time (they then changed their story to claim they were just returning fire).
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Absolutely shameful behavior.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Israel is the other way....
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Israel Blames Hamas For Gaza Children's Deaths
http://news.sky.com/story/1308990/israel-blames-hamas-for-gaza-childrens-deaths
The Magistrate
(95,243 posts)Their intent by firing rockets is to provoke a reaction by Israel in which incidents like that can be counted on to happen. When they do, Israel loses support from ordinary people around the world. Israel's actions in this sort of campaign play into the hand of Hamas.
It is an axiom of strategy that if one side imposes its will on the other, so that one side does what the other makes it do, the side which has forced the action it desires on the other is winning.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
riqster
(13,986 posts)As is manipulation. Just two of Sun-Tzu's writings on the subject:
"Those skilled at making the enemy move do so by creating a situation to which he must conform; they entice him with something he is certain to take, and with lures of ostensible profit they await him in strength."
"Warfare is the art of deceit. Therefore, when able, seem to be unable; when ready, seem unready; when near-by, seem far away; and when far-away, seem near. If the enemy seeks some advantage, entice him with it...Attack where he is not prepared: go by way of places where it would never occur to him you would go."
None of this is new, nor is it unique to the situation.
As usual, Sir, you cut to the heart of the situation, and describe it with admirable clarity.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)with Bill..Carter was right.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)"...(Hamas) strategy designed to force Israel to kill their own civilians".
IronGate
(2,186 posts)As I suspected, didn't take long for the smears to start.
Iamthetruth
(487 posts)That if hamas would not kidnap Israeli children and fire rockets into Israel, that Israel would kill any child, but hey, who needs common sense.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Management of the Scaife family foundations
When Scaife refocused his political giving away from individuals and toward anti-communist research groups, legal defense funds, and publications, the first among these was the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution, and Peace at Stanford University.
Through contacts made at Hoover and elsewhere, Scaife became a major, early supporter of The Heritage Foundation, which has since become one of Washington's most influential public policy research institutes. He currently serves as vice-chairman of the Heritage Foundation board of trustees.[26]
Later, he supported such varied conservative and libertarian organizations as:
American Enterprise Institute
Atlas Economic Research Foundation
David Horowitz Freedom Center
Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow, which advocates for free-market solutions to environmental issues and dissent on anthropogenic global warming[27]
Commonwealth Foundation for Public Policy Alternatives, a Harrisburg-based libertarian think tank[28]
Federalist Society
Foundation for Economic Education
Free Congress Foundation (headed by Jim Gilmore)
Freedom House
GOPAC (headed by Newt Gingrich)
Independent Women's Forum
Intercollegiate Studies Institute (which operates the Collegiate Network)
Judicial Watch
Landmark Legal Foundation
Media Research Center (headed by Brent Bozell)
Pacific Legal Foundation
Reason Foundation
By 1998, his foundations were listed among donors to over 100 such groups, to which he had disbursed some $340 million by 2002
IronGate
(2,186 posts)This is about Pres. Clinton speaking the truth about the terror org. Hamas, not about the late Mr. Scaife.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Where and to whom Bill Clinton decides to speak has a significant impact on the Democratic Party and on the working people of this country. It annoys me that President Clinton was willing to speak at the funeral of a known enemy of working people, and it makes the party look bad for him to do so. On this board, whatever impacts the Democratic Party and its platform is entirely relevant.
-Laelth
IronGate
(2,186 posts)it's about Pres. Clinton speaking the truth about the terror org Hamas stealing International aid money and using it to build those terror tunnels into Israel, how Hamas puts the Palestinian people into mortal danger by firing those rockets into Israel knowing full well that Israel will retaliate.
The terror org Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people except how to use them for their propaganda purposes.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)... it's difficult for me to take seriously your claim to know, authoritatively, what the thread is about.
That said, President Clinton may or may not have spoken the truth, and, as this thread demonstrates, a good number of liberals are interested in that question.
-Laelth
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)to build terror tunnels into Israel, and using civilians as human shields.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)
intaglio
(8,170 posts)The only schools where missiles were found were unused ones and the missiles were removed after discovery by UNWRA.
The tunnels are largely used to move and store food and possessions because they are safer than above ground. "Terror Tunnels" is a term coined by the Israelis to justify their criminal military activities. There are a few cross border tunnels used to import supplies but the Israelis will have been well aware of them because of sonic and seismic surveillance of the border. All the other tunnels are within Gaza.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/21/how-hamas-uses-its-tunnels-to-kill-and-capture-israeli-soldiers/
http://www.businessinsider.com/video-why-israel-is-afraid-of-hamas-tunnels-2014-7
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Why describe them as "terror tunnels"?
I said storage - I did not limit the items stored.
Now take your bigotry and hatred of the Palestinians somewhere it will be appreciated - like Haaretz
IronGate
(2,186 posts)insults and false accusations?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)not a big deal
tritsofme
(17,370 posts)But good insult... I guess
aikoaiko
(34,162 posts)On Mon Aug 4, 2014, 01:41 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Where do these tunnel run?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5335305
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Totally a personal attack.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Aug 4, 2014, 01:49 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: TOTALLY??!! OMFG. Get over yourself with this Trivial Pursuit. What a hell of a waste of a perfecly good alert. Get a goddam hobby and consider clutching your pearls next time instead. (Totally ... )
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I'm hiding it not only because of the personal attack but Haaretz is a good publication and they've been more Pro-Palestinian than most Israeli sources. Educate yourselves people.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: we can be more civil than this.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)proved to be wrong is in very bad taste. Haaretz is a liberal paper so you're wrong about that also.
tritsofme
(17,370 posts)Which is indication enough that it must be EVIL.
hack89
(39,171 posts)there are two sets of tunnels. The ones into Israel are for military purposes.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)none of them were appear to take place in schools
IronGate
(2,186 posts)the tunnels from Gaza into Israel are used for terrorist attacks.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)they were too well built for quick terror attacks only, smuggling went on from both Rafah and from Israel
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)And by "interesting," I mean "'Democrats, my arse.'"
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Pres. Clinton, did after all, go off the meme pushed so hard here.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)regardless of the letter next to their name.
Hero worship has no place in progressive politics.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Opposing Israeli butchery does not equate to defending Hamas.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Clinton's bullshit policies have always (rightly) had plenty of detractors here.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)and caused hunger and some starvation? Bill ...how about you just STFU.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)His administration was the most pro-Israel in the history of the US, and it was the least representative of the American public in US history.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)And I see no reason to fix it. It's better as written.
arikara
(5,562 posts)I lost my affection for him years ago. I wish he would just go hang out with the Bushes and shut up.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)wasn't making Israel look bad, already? I guess. (While using $3 billion a year in US aid to do it, no less.)
Israel's actions are much more destabilising in the longer term. And pretending that Hamas are acting out of irrational unprovoked aggression and that Israel is the victim and injured party is frankly kind of absurd.
Uncle Joe
(58,284 posts)
MrNJ
(200 posts)By forcibly removing the settlers?
Those settlements ?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Israel argues that the withdrawal from Gaza demonstrates that ending the occupation will not bring peace. Some have gone so far as to say that Palestinians squandered their opportunity to build heaven in order to build a terrorist haven instead. These arguments aim to obfuscate Israel’s responsibilities in the Gaza Strip, as well as the West Bank. As Prime Minister Netanyahu once explained, Israel must ensure that it does not “get another Gaza in Judea and Samaria…. I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”
Palestinians have yet to experience a day of self-governance. Israel immediately imposed a siege upon the Gaza Strip when Hamas won parliamentary elections in January 2006 and tightened it severely when Hamas routed Fatah in June 2007. The siege has created a “humanitarian catastrophe” in the Gaza Strip. Inhabitants will not be able to access clean water, electricity or tend to even the most urgent medical needs. The World Health Organization explains that the Gaza Strip will be unlivable by 2020. Not only did Israel not end its occupation, it has created a situation in which Palestinians cannot survive in the long-term.
Israel removed the settlers and and the settlements.
Even the copy/pasted anti-Israel pro-terrorist-Hamas propaganda piece cannot deny it.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)For the benefit of the reader, I will point out again the salient points you choose to ignore because it refutes your infantile arguments:
And now I will place you on the Ignore List, because your inane attempts at posting are a waste of my bandwidth.
MrNJ
(200 posts)to which I replied with facts. Which made the big "Whooosh" sound for you.
But go ahead, stick the fingers in your ears and continue your "Animal Farm" chant
"Israel baaaad, Hamas goood"
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)which are illegal under international law. Those settlements. Were you not aware of those?
MrNJ
(200 posts)But any excuse is a good excuse for Hamas in Gaza.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Occupied by Israel, where Israel is illegally expanding settlements. It's pretty ignorant to pretend that Israel is totally innocent and that Hamas are acting out of irrational and unprovoked aggression.
MrNJ
(200 posts)What a ridiculous stretch of an argument.
Even Hamas is not claiming that they are attacking to protest the settlements in WB
WB has its own government which is not terrorist Hamas.
People of WB hopefully learned their lesson in 2002 and with the help of "the Wall" they stopped trying to attack Israel.
As a consequence we can observe the absence of bombs or shells being dropped on WB.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Israel's illegal settlements are very much part of the reason for Hamas' militancy. Pretending otherwise is blind and stupid.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)…and are determined to embrace any Likud party line, no matter how disproved.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Orrex
(63,172 posts)Next, he'll drink a glass of water while Clinton recites the talking points about why Israel's illegal land-grab is totally cool.
treestar
(82,383 posts)"She made me do it."
Laelth
(32,017 posts)On this subject, the Big Dog would be better served by shutting the hell up. And I'm not too impressed by his decision to speak at the funeral of a known enemy of working people. What the hell is he thinking?
-Laelth
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Or is that he's someone people actually listen to that has your knickers in a knot? When are the people on this board going to realize they form a very small minority of Americans on the subject of Israel?
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I often agree with him. I certainly don't mind people listening to him. To the extent he speaks for the Democratic Party, however, and many people see him that way, I feel entitled to mention when I think he is wrong. Many people feel he is speaking for the party of which I am a member.
-Laelth
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)support Israel. He knows that. So should you.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I also know that public opinion, both in the United States and globally, is currently turning against Israel, and there appear to be good reasons for that. Bill Clinton should know this, as do I.
Besides which, he shouldn't even be attending the funeral of Sciaffe if he wants us to believe that he's a supporter of working Americans.
Just my opinion, of course.
-Laelth
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)to do so, other than that he's hardly headline stuff these days
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)You may not listen to him but plenty of Democrats know better.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but if you say so
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Each party has our "elder statesmen" and Bill is one of our most powerful. He's not some back bench congressional rep. He's a former President.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)since leaving office?
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Honestly, I don't know, but I must agree with leftynyc that President Bill Clinton, as an elder-statesman of the Democratic Party, is often perceived to speak for the party as a whole. His voice carries significant weight. That's why I am disturbed to hear that he spoke at the funeral of a known enemy of working people, and that's why I am disappointed to hear him parrot the Israeli line on the Gaza conflict when the evidence appears to show that our ally, Israel, is culpable in the slaughter of a lot of innocent Palestinians.
-Laelth
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,867 posts)Oh wait, you lied about it being a chemical weapons lab. Go sit down.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)I thought Scaife WAS the "vast right wing conspiracy".
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)by a totally neutral paper! What a joke!
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)one doesn't even need to comment further on that one.
4now
(1,596 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)was head down to south Florida to give a well-paid speech blaming the Palestinians for the breakdown of the"peace talks." It's a lie.
Israel broke all records in settlement building while Clinton was forcing the Palestinians to negotiate for rights that are supposed to be guaranteed by international law. The Palestinians refused to sign a phony "peace deal" that would require them to remain under an apartheid government indefinitely.
All of Bill Clinton's representatives in the negotiations, along with most of his administration, were Zionists, which was like putting the foxes in charge of the hen house.
alp227
(32,006 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)politicman
(710 posts)Its one of the most ironic thing I have ever seen:
Liberals (both in media and those that post here) despise right-wing parties, YET when it comes to Israel they will defend a right-wing party to the hilt and even distort logic and reality to defend that right-wing party.
Liberals (both in media and those that post here) rightly attributed Iraqi Deaths from American missiles to Bush, YET somehow these same liberals will bend reality to attribute Palestinian deaths to Hamas rather than the missiles fired from Israeli planes.
Would any of you liberals that absolve Israel and Bibi of the deaths of innocent Palestinians from Israeli missiles, be consistent and also absolve Bush from the Iraqi deaths during the 2003 invasion?
Afterall, a case can be made that those 100,000+ deaths in Iraq would not have happened if Saddam accepted every demand Bush made of him.
Imagine someone using the same logic that they use to absolve Israel of Palestinian deaths to absolve Bush of Iraqi death and destruction:
-- Bush bears no responsibility for Iraqi deaths as Saddam forced him to invade and destroy Iraq by not just handing over his oil resources
-- Bush didn't go into Iraq for his oil buddies, no he went there with the true intention of preemptive self-defense.
Would anyone on here (or any liberal you know) use the above excuses to absolve Bush of responsibility?
Yet when it comes to Israel and its right-wing government, liberals everywhere try to convince others that these excuses are legitimate?
Any of you Israeli apologists want to answer that one?
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)no truth in what he's saying. Why is he saying it? Well I believe most people are offended when you start killing children - on purpose! Bibi is losing the PR war so he's trying to bring in the big guns. But it's not gonna work. Less than 2 years ago some deranged individual gunned down little babies, 1st graders in a small US town. That is still fresh in our hearts and to think Israel is now doing the same thing in Gaza is horrifying. truly horrifying.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)Iraqi babies, starved to death by the sanctions that the USA enforced. Only difference was that it was a slower death. But quite comparable to what Binyamin Netanyahu has done to the innocent children of Gaza.
I agree, causing the deaths of innocents is truly horrifying. Both the USA and Israel have a long history of doing it.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Speaking at a memorial service for Tribune-Review owner Richard Mellon Scaife, Clinton lamented the series of foreign policy crises that have cropped up from Eastern Europe to the Middle East in recent weeks.
“How could the people in Gaza, who started rocketing Israel, think that it was OK to use international aid money to dig tunnels to increase their ability to destabilize the region and kill people?” Clinton told about 150 Trib Total Media employees at the memorial service at Scaife's boyhood home in Ligonier.
This Richard Mellon Scaife:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/richard-mellon-scaife-billionaire-famous-for-attacks-against-bill-clinton-has-died/2014/07/04/9e2fcace-458c-11e3-bf0c-cebf37c6f484_story.html
He was a major underwriter of the American Spectator magazine’s Arkansas Project to find evidence of financial and personal misdeeds by the Clintons in the 1990s. The effort included David Brock’s magazine story containing allegations from four Arkansas state troopers that they helped procure women for then-Gov. Bill Clinton.
Most notably, Mr. Scaife personally hired a freelance writer to try to establish that either President Clinton or then-first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton was instrumental in the death of Deputy White House Counsel Vincent W. Foster Jr. in 1993. Foster, a former law-firm partner of the first lady, was found dead from a gunshot wound to the mouth in Fort Marcy Park in Fairfax County.
