Consensual BDSM does not equal rape and sexual torture.

[Kurska]

Thought that would be pretty obvious, but apparently a lot of prudish people here seem to think it does.

[Tetris_Iguana]

1. Go on...

[Kurska]

4. Just breath in that fresh thread smell brother

[bravenak]

2. Sometimes it does.

How would you know? Have you worked in the sex industry? In any capacity? There have been people that sold themselves to be cannabalized.

[Kurska]

5. Consensual BDSM

Did you miss the word consensual somewhere?

How can consensual sex be rape?

Just because something seems "rapey" in that part of the sexual thrill is about domination and control, doesn't make it rape.

This is a distinction people need to learn.

"Have you ever worked in the sex industry?"

My ex boyfriend did. Don't think that makes me an expert though.

[bravenak]

8. Because sometimes people change their minds and it doesn't stop.

And I did work in the sex industry for a long time and consider myself an expert.

[Kurska]

12. And what exactly are we talking about anymore?

The sex industry?

[bravenak]

18. You know what Kurska, my bad.

Went off on a tangent. Cant we just post funny gifs tonight?

[BainsBane]

41. You don't know that it's consensual

and you are ignoring the point that people were objection to the depiction of rape as a form of seduction.

[treestar]

104. That's the argument

about where there is consent. You're trying to make that "prudish" but it could be a true concern about the alleged consent.

[Scootaloo]

3. Apparently? Do tell.

Links please, if you've got them.

[Tetris_Iguana]

7. I would also like links, as well.

Pretty please?

[Kurska]

14. I don't think anything like that is kosher for DU.

Welcome back by the way. Missed you tons <3.

[Scootaloo]

22. So you're not going to add content to your click-bait?

Are you not talking about DU when you admonish DU via your OP?

Oh I get it, you're admonishing the author of 50 Shades for making that mistake. You know i think she has a twitter account, you could reach her directly

[Kurska]

28. I'm not getting what content you want me to add.

And wow not even acknowledging my welcome back. I'm deinviting you to my birthday party Scoot.

[Scootaloo]

32. No? here's your OP.

Consensual BDSM does not equal rape and sexual torture. [View all]
Thought that would be pretty obvious, but apparently a lot of prudish people here seem to think it does.

That bolded and underlined part. i was hoping to see some backing of that. Links, y'know, some content that you base the assertion off of.

[Kurska]

34. So you want me to link to individual Duers posts and call them out?

Is that right?

I'm starting to think you never even wanted to go to my birthday party, btw.

[Scootaloo]

40. Isn't this entire thread supposed to be such a call-out?

Whatever. Chapter 4, Ana passes out at a bar, wakes up unclothed in a hotel room with Christian.

Chapter 12, she sends him an email telling him she's not into BDSM, and it was "nice knowing him." he responds by sneaking into her apartment, tying her up and raping her. She has orgasms from this, which the author presents as being consent.

Christian also threatens Ana with public sex against her wishes (you know, rape) when she violates the "contract" he pressured her to sign after their first sexual encounter. or, rather when he thinks she has done so. Twice.

This is on top of the basic themes of the books, that of a violent and callous man exploiting a guileless virgin but eventually being "tamed" by that very lack of guile. Think "beauty and the Beast" only with more, you know, raping. And i suppose, less body hair.

[Kurska]

42. The author says the character wants it and it was consensual and you're saying it is rape.

And you're saying the author is lying?

"The standard red for stop yellow for slow down are established in Chapter 11 and it is implied that Ana could have stopped any sex that happened or was threatened after that point."

Tell me does the number 12 come after the number 11. If she wanted it to stop and was being raped, why didn't just say red?

Man forget it, I don't think you could even handle my birthday party scoot.

[Scootaloo]

49. I'm saying the author is completely full of shit, yes

The author clearly writes scenes with a lack of consent. She clearly writes christian using threat of rape to intimidate Ana. Hell, chapter three - where Ana is in the bar - there's rape threats from other bar patrons that, in chapter four, Ana interprets as "nice men."

Now it's possible that Ana is just one of those unfortunate people who self-deludes into believing she "deserved" or "wanted" the rape and threats. This is an actual coping mechanism some victims end up using to try to dull what happened to them. Unfortunately, the author doesn't seem to understand this potential, and as you point out, goes meta to announce Ana "wanted' to be raped. Even if she hadn't done so, th quality of the work - and its origin as Twilight fanfiction - would point me to doubting the author intended to portray a victim trying to cope.

So yes. E. L. James wrote rape scenes, and is full of shit when she says those scenes depict consensual sex. Maybe it was her intent to portray consensual sex, but she failed, and she failed on a magnificent level, comparable to the rather infamous scene from Game of Thrones' fourth season.

[Kurska]

51. Honestly, this has to be a joke.

I think it is hilarious you think that you can define what a fictional character wants and was thinking better than the author.

[Scootaloo]

67. Look at it this way.

Are you at all familiar with star Wars? If not, a short primer. There's a scene in the original film, where Han Solo is confronted by the alien bounty hunter, Greedo. Greedo wants to collect the debt Han owes to the crime boss, Jabba the Hutt. As they argue, Han slips his blaster free below the table. At the climax of the scene, Han fires, sending a laser blast through the table and killing Greedo.

George Lucas - the series' author - was unhappy with this. He wanted Han to be the "lovable rogue" instead of an underhanded murdering criminal.

In the 1997 re-release of Episode IV, Lucas had the scene edited to make Greedo shoot first, thus making Han's shot in self-defense. Lucas didn't keep the original footage, and try to tell us that Greedo is shooting first despite the clear evidence otherwise in the scene. granted the change was nonsensical nd made the scene fairly ridiculous, but at least lucas put the effort to correct his "vision"

Well, for a time.


If James had edited her work to add consent to the scenes she depicted, that'd be something. And unlike Star Wars, Fifty Shades is garbage enough that a clumsy edit wouldn't look at all out of place. But instead, she leaves the text as-written, and tells us to ignore what we actually read and instead believe what she says we're reading.

First off, that's a sure sign of a piss-poor author who can't properly convey her ideas into words. but I guess that's fanfiction and self-publishing for you.

But also, it's a halfassed attempt to back out of the depictions of rape she very clearly penned.

[Kurska]

72. I'm sorry, but when a debate about a fictious possible, maybe or maybe not rape turns to starwars

That is the point I'm bowing out of the debate.

Gotta admit though, you bring something special to DU. Shine on you crazy diamond.

[Scootaloo]

74. Enjoy the cake, Kurska.

[1StrongBlackMan]

97. I had no desire to read the book ...

and less desire to see the movie; but, REALLY?!? ... We really have people arguing (from what I can gather about the story line) that rape is not rape because she really wanted to be raped ... she just needed to convinced/shown/taught/"freed to be honest with herself", that she really wanted it?

Really?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

101. Apparently...

we have an author who writes what even people into BDSM interpret as rape scenes, and then has to go out of her way to tell the reader that oh, no they weren't rape. I've known people who were 'raped through intimidation' - they were thoroughly unwilling to have sex, but made no protest at the time because they were simply afraid, based upon the way the much larger person was acting and talking, that any refusal would result in violence beyond that of the rape itself. The author seems to have bought hook line and sinker into the old 'She wants it, even if she doesn't know she wants it'. And the defenders are going around talking about 'fun police' and 'prudes', and throwing around strawmen about consensual adults in their own bedrooms, when not a single person has said squat about interfering with any real BDSM relationship occurring in real life. And this is dragging out on OP after OP after OP.

[Scootaloo]

105. A few times, Ana makes herself sexually available out of fear of getting hit

So there's that too.

Totally worth a spirited defense on DU

[bravenak]

50. Don't ignore me.

I'm fun and exciting.http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/FiftyShadesofGrey

[Kurska]

52. I'd never dream of it.

By the way, you're still totally invited to my birthday party.

[bravenak]

57. Awesome!!!nt

[Kurska]

60. Seriously though, if there is a bad thing it can be linked to twilight.

Totally doesn't surprise me it started as a twilight fanfic. God help us.

[bravenak]

65. I think that's why it's so bad. Twilight.

Even Bigfoot erotica is doing splendidly. Maybe we should get some Yoda or Yeti erotica going.

[Kurska]

66. "Yoda or Yeti" Why or?

Yoda+Yeti erotica.

You're sitting on a gold mine right there.

[bravenak]

69. Damn you are brilliant!

Menage it is!!http://www.freebestbook.com/Romance/fifty_shades_of_grey_E_L_James.html
For your reading pleasure.

[Kurska]

75. You know a BDSM book is good, when reading it is torture.

http://instantrimshot.com/

[bravenak]

95. Starting it tonight!!

Female Yoda and Yeti meets Clark Kent. Or female Yoda and Xena warrior Princess meet Bruce Wayne. I'm sure I can make it 30 pages and sell at least a thousand copies.

[Scootaloo]

76. Almost certain I've seen that one

Well, granted it was a wampa, and not a yeti...

But pretty much the same thing when you get down to it.

"A Cold Night on Hoth" seems like a good working title...

But yeah. Rule 34, Kurska. Rule fuckin' 34.

[Kurska]

82. That is a face only a mother could write erotica about

[Scootaloo]

87. Aaaaaand we're done

[Warren DeMontague]

93. The lady who writes Bigfoot Porn pulls down like 50K a month on Amazon.

Mayhaps ye should reconsider.

[LittleBlue]

6. Well said.

Pain, restraint, dominance, submission, there isn't anything wrong with adding these to sex.

If it's not one's cup of tea, that's fine. Trying to influence what others do in the bedroom is Rick Santorum level creepy

[BainsBane]

9. While I haven't read that piece of garbage book

from what I've read about the book, it depicts NON-CONSENSUAL RAPE. But don't let a minor details like consent and rape interfere with your rant.

Enjoy all the illiterate crap books you want. I have too much respect for the English language to participate in its violation or defend anyone like that trash author who so willfully defiles it.

I also think we know that rich, powerful men are rarely sexually dominant. They are more likely to be submissive, whereas men who feel powerless in their own lives are more likely to seek to regain power through sexual domination of a partner.

[Kurska]

11. You're saying a book you haven't read has rape in it.

Plenty of people I know have read that book (ain't my cup of tea, I'm gay) and they never mentioned the rape parts. Maybe the burden should fall on the people making the claim to prove it does.

[BainsBane]

13. Neither of us have read it

so we don't actually know, do we? But since the point of your OP is to call people who object to what is depicted in the book prudes, I suggest that onus is on you. It is you who have decided to insult DUers. The idea that you are supposedly defending sexual freedom by shaming the sexuality of those who don't share your interpretation of the book should not be lost on anyone.

[Kurska]

15. The onus is on me to prove the book doesn't have rape in it?

... Do you want me to go line by line on DU to see if it does?

That might take awhile.

Oh and I did search the internet before I started this thread trying to find an example of text from the book that did depict rape.

No dice.

You think it has rape in it? PROVE it, until then it is just a bunch of yelping.

[BainsBane]

24. Let's review

YOU chose to insult people here, women in particular, by shaming them for their sexuality in calling them prudes. Yet you expect others to provide evidence to support or refute insults you have chosen to make?

Once again, we see the mere act of speaking in public renders a woman sexually deficient. She objects to rape scenes; she must be a prude. She thinks a movie is crap or a book a piece of trash, she is sexually uptight, a "prude." Her rights to speech are irrelevant, as is her right to her own sexual choices, even to choose which films she likes or criticizes. You use her sexuality as a club because she dares to challenge what you think should never be mentioned. Men's freedom must be absolute, whereas anyone who dares to speak in public about a movie must be shamed for her sexuality, declared a "prude" and hence sexually deficient. While on first blush one might see the act of shaming women's sexuality in defense of men's sexual liberty as contradictory, but in fact it is entirely consistent with the performance and maintenance of privilege.

[Kurska]

26. "women in particular, by shaming them for their sexuality in calling them prudes." WHAT

That is some serious mental gymnastics there. Are you really going to claim that calling someone a prude for someone attacking someone's sexuality as a crime is attacking the attackers sexuality?

My head is spinning right now. Legit.

Where did you even get that I'm talking about women or women in particular?

I'm gay. Women aren't even a part of my sexuality.

[BainsBane]

38. Most of those voicing concerns about the film are feminists

Calling someone a prude is shaming them for their sexuality. It is part of the same process as so-called "slut shaming." I came to that realization somewhat belatedly after someone who had often called me a "prude" and "sex negative" insisted I keep my "sexcapades" private. http://www.democraticunderground.com/125544521

Women aren't part of your sexuality, but they are part of this online community. It is largely their speech you object to, not just now but on occasions in the past. This isn't a thread about your sex life. It's your criticism of people on DU who have voiced objections to the book and film 50 Shades of Grey.

[Kurska]

44. "Calling someone a prude is shaming them for their sexuality." Since when?

Maybe the word Puritan would be more fitting in this context.

I never mentioned feminists once in this thread. So I dunno where you get the idea this a polemic against feminists. Unless you're assuming all feminists agree with your opinion.

[BainsBane]

77. Accordng to the synopsis of the book

It does in fact depict rape and bears little relation to actual BDSM. Bravenak read the book and sent me to this site. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/FiftyShadesofGrey

I explain the connection between shaming women for being prudes and "sluts" quite well in the link I provided. Both shame women for their sexuality. Puritan would be no better. In addition to being historically inaccurate, it still shames sexuality. Is it too much to deal with people who disagree with you without insulting them as sexually deficient?

You didn't mention feminists, and you didn't mention the book, but we all know what this is about. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous. I used the term feminists to describe those articulating concerns over the book. You might call them "the swarm," HOF, or "the usual suspects." And don't play that game insisting I implied "all feminists" agree with my position. I don't actually have a position on the book. I have a position on the incredible stupidity of the way the discussion has progressed over these several threads today.

[pnwmom]

85. You don't have to read the whole book to learn that it includes rape.

All you need to do is google. Maybe the people you know don't understand what rape is. Plenty of people don't, unfortunately.

http://somethingshortandsnappy.blogspot.com/2012/09/50-shades-of-grey-chapter-20-in-which.html

“I want you, and I want you now. And if you’re not going to let me hit you – which you deserve – I’m going to fuck you on the couch this minute, quickly, for my pleasure, not yours.”

“We don’t have long. This will be quick, and it’s for me, not you. Do you understand? Don’t come, or I will hit you,” he says through clenched teeth.

These are word for word quotes from the book, except for the fact that I changed the euphemism "spank" to "hit." The meaning is the same.

[moriah]

16. If the rape is depicted as wrong and NOT the way BDSM is supposed to work...

... then depicting it in and of itself is not bad.

Of course, I don't know how it's depicted, and neither do you, if you haven't read the book either.

Unfortunately yes, there are people on DU deciding to judge people's consensual sexual practices, and people who I presume are not involved in the lifestyle making extremely sweeping pronouncements about the reasons why people enjoy kink in the bedroom, like you have. It's amazing how easy it is for people to place other people who practice sexual things they might not enjoy into cute little boxes and "explain" why a person is submissive or dominant in the bedroom.

[BainsBane]

31. These are not people. It's a book and a movie

How is it that the privacy rights of fictional characters trump the free speech rights of citizens?

That entire argument is preposterous. I can't believe more than one person confuses characters in a novel with real human beings.

As for the book, what I have read is that the man rapes the woman until her will is broken. I'm told It does not depict rape as a crime but as means of seduction.

So yeah, I'm going to judge rapists all day long. Rape is evil and should not under any circumstances be met with anything but abject horror.

[moriah]

33. Judge rape all you want, but you can't deny....

... that you made a sweeping judgment about males and kink in your own post.

Others have done very similar things in discussing BDSM, not this book, on this forum.

[BainsBane]

39. What generalization is that?

And you haven't addressed the point about why fictional characters should be exempt from public commentary.

[moriah]

43. I never said that, I discussed yours and others making casual sweeping statements about BDSM.

Like this:

"I also think we know that rich, powerful men are rarely sexually dominant. They are more likely to be submissive, whereas men who feel powerless in their own lives are more likely to seek to regain power through sexual domination of a partner."

I've held the whip for many a man who made less than I did, and their reasons for being sexually submissive had as little to do with their socio-economic status as my reasons for only occasionally "switching" and being primarily submissive myself. True, rich men can afford professional dommes and to call phone sex lines, and there are more men who are willing to be submissive and dominant for free, so women rarely have to pay whichever side of the whip they happen to prefer being on. But you are catering to myths which are not always true, and are sometimes offensive, when you say things like that like they are "known" facts.

Because they aren't. I don't fit any mold I've found yet, and I resent people putting me and others who enjoy a bit of kink in neat little boxes.

[BainsBane]

56. Okay

My experience differs. My operating theory has been that many people in BDSM seek to enact through their sex life what they lack in their daily lives. I didn't mean that purely in terms of money, but power and wealth do sometimes coincide. That is a generalization about BDSM overall, not just men. I only used the term men because the main character in the film, from the trailer I saw, is a rich man. I mentioned it because it struck me as unrealistic. I don't claim absolute knowledge on the subject.

[moriah]

61. The (dominant) guy I'm seeing is going to school, himself.

Of course, as I've said in other parts of this debate, he and I differ from some as neither of us are into sadism or masochism, just more bondage and domination. They aren't always part of the same package. We're a "just in the bedroom" couple, we make relationship decisions completely on an egalitarian basis.

In reality, I feel really spoiled. I get hours of attention paid to my body, he just really gets the ability to ask for sex when he wants it (of course I still have the ability to say no, I just generally don't because I like it as much as he does, and he never asks when he knows I feel poorly or am really tired, etc). I think I'm winning in this one.

[BainsBane]

78. This synopsis of the book says it bears little relation to real life BDSM

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/FiftyShadesofGrey

Bravenak actually read the book and sent me to this site as a reference.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

23. Both my mother and my fiance have read the books...

50 Shades does NOT depict rape. All sex is consensual.

[bravenak]

46. I read it.

When it was Master of the Universe. Not all of it, mind you. But i love asoiaf fanfiction so i started this one too. Realized it was porny. And that I actually write better than that. Read this.http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/FiftyShadesofGrey

[Scootaloo]

53. You're not the only one Bravenak

Shit, if I could get an advance on it - and lower my personal standards enough (mmmmm, gin...) I'm certain I could re-write 50 shades as a sexier and more driven work.

I could even change Christian Grey into an anthropomorphized egret or something and still do better.

[Kurska]

58. "anthropomorphized egret" the furries would love it.

Then again out of position is one of my favorite books, so who am I to judge.

[Scootaloo]

73. It's all about targeting a market. n/t

[bravenak]

62. "anthropomorphized egret"

Thank you!!!! You are tonight's Internet Winner'.

But we might need more than gin. Something to cleanse the brain when we finish. I might do it. I have a free week or so, I'm not busy. I'll just write a woman who is my polar opposite. Charlie Sheen winning.

[Scootaloo]

70. Have you ever seen Nostalgia Chick's "Fifty Shades of Green" series?

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/team-nchick/50-shades-of-green

it's long, but it's worth it. oh, so worth it.

[bravenak]

71. Will do it tonight.nt

[moriah]

55. Maybe you can handle all the Mary Sues, I can't.

The only reason I might read the book is to see how much of a comment on Twilight it really was. I mean, we have all bashed Stephanie Meyer for writing a character who got shoved around and pulled between men with seemingly no ability to make her own decisions for herself. Should "Ana" be any different?

[bravenak]

59. Anna Was Worse!

Much worse. Couldn't make it through it when she was still named Bella.

[moriah]

64. ... if all of this debate forces me to find a pirated copy online to read....

.... because I'm not about to pay for this...

.... someone is going to have to buy me a box of wine. I don't know if I'll be able to do this sober.

[bravenak]

68. Bigger box the better.

It's literally stupid. When he pulls her tampon out, you'll think to yourself, WHY? Why me? Plenty of pirated copies.
Read free online:http://www.freebestbook.com/Romance/fifty_shades_of_grey_E_L_James.html

Enjoy!! They have all three.

[BainsBane]

79. Thanks. That's helpful

[bravenak]

81. No problemo.nt

[joshcryer]

10. 50 Shades doesn't indicate "Safe Play" BDSM.

While I do think it was consensual, it is not the kind of relationship most BDSM people have.

[chervilant]

17. I find it disingenuous

and not a little offensive to accuse DUers who object to media depictions of rape and relationship violence (and myriad other behaviors that objectify and belittle women) of being "prudish." Like others who've posted responses about '50 Shades,' I could give a rat's ass what two consenting adults opt to do sexually. Sex can -- and should -- be an amazing experience.

However, I've had enough of the sexism, misogyny and "what rape culture?!?" attitudes that are becoming prevalent in this forum and across this nation. I thought we'd come a lot further in my lifetime. Sad to see we've not.

[Kurska]

19. "media depictions of rape"

There is rape in 50 shades of grey? Care to provide an example of it?

[chervilant]

21. Really, Kurska?!?

I used to have you on my IL.

Apparently, I would do well to return you there.

[Kurska]

30. But..

Think of how much you'll miss my wit!

[Dr Hobbitstein]

25. There is no rape in 50 Shades.

All sex depicted in the book is consensual.

[bravenak]

48. There is.

I read it. I would call some of it date rape. He DID break into her home after she sent him a dear john letter indicating that she was not interested in continuing. Then he rapes her. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/FiftyShadesofGrey

[smirkymonkey]

102. +1000

*This*

[pa28]

20. A few people at the margin will always critisize lifestyle choices like BDSM.

I wouldn't bother myself about it too much.

[Luminous Animal]

27. And 50 Shades of Gray is about rape and abuse. The author hasn't a clue about BDSM. Her "hero" is an

abusive sociopath. Little wonder that the BDSM community rejected the books for it's reckless characterization.

[Kurska]

29. Can you tell me where the rape in 50 shades of grey is?

No one seems to be able to point out the part where he rapes her.

[DonCoquixote]

54. the coercion a rich man can do

to a poorer woman.

[Luminous Animal]

109. It as been pointed out several times but here is more...

Sexual violence
Sexual violence is pervasive across the couple's 13 sexual encounters—including Christian's use of alcohol to compromise Anastasia's consent and his use of intimidation (Christian initiates sexual encounters when angry, and dismisses Anastasia's boundaries). Again, within the context of consensual BDSM relationships, the use of alcohol, drugs, or other substances negates consent, and boundaries are respected even when boundaries are being pushed.46

Sexual violence example 1
The first sex scene occurs at Christian's condominium 2 weeks into the relationship. Christian sets up the sex scene by offering Anastasia generous amounts of wine (which she accepts) and engaging her in a discussion of the BDSM contract. During their discussion of the contract, Christian learns that Anastasia is a virgin, instantly angers, and intimidates/threatens, “Why the fuck didn't you tell me?” (p. 108). Christian paces, while Anastasia is alarmed and whispers “Why are you so angry with me?” (p. 110). Sensing Anastasia's withdrawal over his concerns that she is a virgin, Christian quickly suggests he is angry at himself and that he should “teach her the basics” (p. 110) about sex. Christian asks Anastasia if she wants to leave (manipulation because it gives Anastasia the illusion she has control after he induces a tense situation that causes her distress), and then tells her he likes having her there, he wants to bite her lip hard, and they should “forget about the [BDSM contract] rules” (p. 111) reinforced with:

“I want you…and I know you want me…you wouldn't be sitting here calmly discussing punishment and hard limits if you didn't”

(p. 111).

Christian further primes Anastasia by suggesting “I really want to make love to you…you are one brave woman…I'm in awe of you…please let me make love to you” (p. 111). But, at the same time, he intimidates/warns, “…?this doesn't mean I've come over all hearts and flowers…it's a means to an end” (p. 110–111). Christian asks Anastasia to show him how she “pleasures [her]self,” (p. 114) and “fucks [penetrates] her hard:” “…he pounds on, picking up speed, merciless, a relentless rhythm” (p. 117). Christian penetrates Anastasia a second time from behind, claiming sexual ownership of Anastasia and intimidating/ordering her to “come:”

“You are mine. Only mine. Don't forget it…I'm going to take you from behind…I want you sore, baby…every time you move tomorrow, I want you to be reminded that I've been here. Only me. You are mine. You. Are. Mine. Come for me, baby” (p. 119–121).

As a critical reminder, this sex scene constitutes the couple's very first sexual intercourse; while this type of “play” (e.g., Christian asking Anastasia to masturbate and commanding her to “come”) might occur later on in a BDSM relationship, the early and immediate use of alcohol to impair Anastasia's consent and the use of intimidation/pressure while Christian is genuinely angry at Anastasia for not disclosing that she is a virgin is inconsistent with consensual BDSM relationship practices.46 As well, this initial intimidating sex, coupled with Christian's use of emotional abuse throughout the relationship, sets the stage for future instances of nonegalitarian sexual interactions.

Sexual violence example 2
The fourth sex scene occurs the evening of Anastasia's college graduation ceremony approximately 3 weeks into the relationship. Christian and Anastasia had recently exchanged lengthy e-mails and conversation about the BDSM contract, including Christian pressing Anastasia at her graduation ceremony about whether she intended to sign the contract. Immediately prior to the sex scene, Christian and Anastasia exchange emails about how great Anastasia looked at graduation, and Christian offers to come to Anastasia's apartment. Christian arrives with a bottle of champagne and Anastasia instantly wonders, “Is he getting me tipsy” (p. 253); Christian later admits to getting her tipsy on purpose (p. 271). Intimidation occurs throughout an elaborate review of the BDSM contract. When Anastasia sets limits regarding anal intercourse, Christian intimidates (“I'll agree to the [no] fisting but I'd really like to claim your ass…your ass will need training” p. 256) and humiliates (“I don't mean to laugh…you're just so inexperienced” p. 257). Later in the conversation, Christian manipulates Anastasia by offering to spend one additional night per week with her, on the condition that she accepts his graduation gift (an Audi A-3, value: $30,000). When Anastasia becomes angry about the gift, Christian intimidates:

Christian: “It's taking all my self-control not to fuck you on the hood of this car right now, just to show you that you are mine, and if I want to buy you a fucking car, I'll buy you a fucking car. Now let's get you inside and get naked.”

Anastasia: “You scare me when you're angry.”

Christian: “Turn around, I want to get you out of that dress.” (p. 262–263)

Thus, this sex scene also involves alcohol to impair Anastasia's consent (including Christian's direct confession of his intention to get her tipsy) and anger/intimidation, which causes Anastasia distress.

Sexual violence example 3
Similarly, the seventh sex scene involves alcohol and Christian's anger/intimidation. During a dinner party at Christian's parent's house, Christian and Anastasia drink copious amounts of wine, and Christian genuinely angers upon learning that Anastasia plans to visit her mother in Georgia and that she had drinks with José (her friend) to celebrate graduation. Christian intimidates/threatens Anastasia, while clenching his jaw and narrowing his eyes (“When were you going to tell me you were leaving” p. 339; “This conversation is not over” p. 340; and “(I am) palm-twitchingly mad.” p. 341). Christian further intimidates Anastasia by moving his hand between her legs underneath the dinner table; Anastasia's body “tightens in response” and she worries “not here, not now…I reach for my wine in desperation” (p. 343). Again, while Christian moving his hand between Anastasia's legs could be part of BDSM “play,” this move is done when Anastasia's consent is impaired and when Christian is genuinely furious at her for “leaving him” (visit to see her mother and drinks with Jose). After dinner, Christian “scoops” Anastasia over his shoulder and takes her to his parent's boathouse, where he details his anger, threatens to spank her, and “fucks” her:

“…?I'm mad because you never mentioned Georgia to me. I'm mad because you went drinking with that guy [Jose] who tried to seduce you when you were drunk and who left you when you were ill with an almost a complete stranger. What kind of friend does that? And I'm mad and aroused because you closed your legs on me…” (p. 348)

Anastasia resists: “Please don't hit me…I don't want you to spank me, not here, not now. Please don't” (p. 347). Surrounding the ensuing sex, Christian intimidates through clenched teeth: “This [her vagina] is mine…all mine…do you understand?” and “This will be quick, and it's for me, not for you. Do you understand? Don't come or I will spank you” (p. 349).

In summary, the three sex scenes we reviewed here illustrated themes that were consistent throughout the other sex scenes in the novel—notably the use of alcohol to impair Anastasia's consent and the use of intimidation/pressure typically accompanied by Christian's genuine anger over “some transgression” Anastasia makes or concerns that things are not going his way, including her resistance to his sexual practices. Christian's use of alcohol prior to most discussions of the BDSM contract terms is also a means of compromising Anastasia's consent; again, the CDC's definition of sexual violence highlights the role of alcohol to impair consent and intimidation/pressure to coerce participation in unwanted sexual activities.63 Further, BDSM experts acknowledge that substance abuse negates consent, and sexual boundaries should be respected at all times.46 Finally, in a relationship fraught with pervasive emotional abuse (stalking, intimidation, isolation, and humiliation), sexual interactions by definition are coerced; in real-world violent couples with similar underlying emotional abuse, rape/sexual assault is a common occurrence.68

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/jwh.2013.4344

[darkangel218]

35. Not sure what has been posted here lately about BDSM

Since I'm not much here anymore. But safe, sane and consensual play between 2 adults is defenetly not rape.

I personally find BDSM fun. To each their own I say.

[TDale313]

94. Absolutely true, but not at all what is depicted in 50 shades of Grey.

[bravenak]

36. Okay.

“Well, I thought I should come and remind you how nice it was knowing me.” Holy crap. I stare at him open mouthed, and his fingers move from my ear to my chin. “What do you say to that, Miss Steele?” [...she says nothing...] I take pre-emptive action and launch myself at him. Somehow he moves, I have no idea how, and in the blink of an eye I’m on the bed pinned beneath him, my arms stretched out and held above my head, his free hand clutching my face, and his mouth finds mine.
She totally consented, see? Because she, uh, started moving. Maybe to run out of the room or to punch him, he doesn't know, but since we the readers know it was a sexy movement then we can rest assured this is totes 100% consensual.

(Important note: even if it was a sexy movement, that still doesn't constitute consent to being forcibly held down. "Yes" does not mean "yes to everything you could possibly want to do with me.&quot
He bends and starts undoing one of my sneakers. Oh no… no… my feet. No. I’ve just been running. “No,” I protest, trying to kick him off. He stops. “If you struggle, I’ll tie your feet too. If you make a noise, Anastasia, I will gag you."
I... oh god. I'm out of even bitter jokes now. Basically I'm down to "I want you to know that this happens in this book, and this is why it is not just a bad romance novel, it is fucking horrifying."

http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2014/01/lets-read-fifty-shades-of-grey-chapter.html

[msanthrope]

99. Sorry....but that is not a rape scene. I suggest you read the whole scene, rather

than cherry-picked lines....I mean, a woman being raped does not think:

The ice in my navel is melting. I am beyond warm – warm and chilled and wanting.

Wanting him, inside me. Now.

Further....she does not break up with him.

The problem of using other people's synopses and thoughts is that you cannot assume they are reliable interpretations. You and Bane obviously haven't read the source book you are critiquing, and thus, your analysis suffers and is not compelling.

[bravenak]

100. She does break up with him at the end.

Last scene of book one, he's beating her again. She finally goes off crying and leaves him. I just reread the whole ending to be sure. She asks him for the money from selling her car. Then leaves.

Then i started fifty shades of darker and saw that they were still broken up until he kept contacting her. Then she gave in and told him she had forgotten to use the safe word. Also, no more beatings. Fuck his rules. Told him how she felt about him and her thoughts told how she went along with it because she loved him.

I read the source book before it was an actual book. Master of the Universe was stupid even before they changed it for mainstream. It's free on bestfreebook.com.

[bluestateguy]

37. I agree: as long as everyone is a mentally competent adult not under the infuence of drugs o alcohol

BDSM is not something that a lot of people "get". There are some things that we as Americans are just not adult enough to talk about.

[TygrBright]

45. Absolutely! Unfortunately, "50 Shades" is not about consensual BDSM.

It's about a skeevy, manipulative, controlling creepazoid who cloaks his personal inadequacy in the trappings of BDSM.

Every single fucking chapter of that creepy book features SOME action that ethical, consensual BDSM practitioners despise. Stalking, manipulation, and every other kind of unethical, nonconsensual sleaze abound.

It's a fantasy, pure and simple. Actual, consensual BDSM aficionados do not do crap like that without EXPLICIT prior negotiation among equally-empowered adults, every step of the way. They don't play head games without describing the precise game, the effects, the techniques that will be involved, and setting limits on where, when, and how.

They don't allow BDSM play to bleed over into real-life situations with non-involved people. They don't try to isolate partners from family and friends.

As a fantasy, it may have its appeal, but "50 Shades" is one sick, badly-written, totally inaccurate portrayal of loving BDSM between intelligent, empowered, consenting adults.

disgustedly,
Bright

[TDale313]

80. Thank you. Very well put. n/t

[NanceGreggs]

47. Yes, one would think ...

... it is pretty obvious.

But apparently for some, the blatantly obvious isn't obvious enough.

[Kablooie]

63. But some people would rather not engage in this activity ...

so they want to stop anyone else from engaging in it too.
They are just being neighborly, kind of like Mr. Rogers.
Not the TV guy, the Mr. Rogers who lives down the street from me and tells everyone else how they have to live their lives.

[ClarkeVII]

83. Preach on

Thank you. This place is getting so judgmental.

[BainsBane]

84. The book depicts NON-CONSENSUAL RAPE

according to this synopsis that Bravenak pointed me to, and she actually read the thing.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/FiftyShadesofGrey

[ClarkeVII]

86. I know this is hard for some to believe

But this is actually a common fantasy role play in the bedroom. Someone actually put it into words because the author knew some people would find this hot.

[BainsBane]

88. What is this OP about?

What does it say? Now that the consent part has been proven false, you're going to change the topic to rape is hot? You really want to go there?

[ClarkeVII]

90. Some people "consensually" role play that fantasy.

So what

[BainsBane]

96. Some people travel to the Moon

Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2014, 05:55 AM - Edit history (1)

So what? That's not what the book is about. As the link shows, it is non-consensual rape. That is the point. Why is it that you insist on ignoring that fact?

[AgingAmerican]

89. What the hell?

Brought this on?

[philip.chinery]

91. It's usually the prudish people that are into it...

so I don't understand your comment.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

92. I've known some hard core couples that are really into it....

We're talking ceiling hooks, spreader bars, clamps, needles, leather wear.

Basically the whole Centurion's Bazaar catalog.

They're usually yuppies.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

98. The discussion here keeps conflating BDSM in general with a bad piece of "literature."

[treestar]

103. Do you have to be prudish to be against that stuff?

Or to argue that if you like being hurt, you might be better of finding out why? Seems there could be a self esteem issue here.

[Tetris_Iguana]

106. Wow

Shocking to even see people question sexual proclivities between consenting adults here.

Especially members using the same ignorant arguments that are used by Repukes to question homosexuality.

[treestar]

108. I don't like pain

So yeah, I question that, but it doesn't stop anyone from doing what they want. It is likely that most of us not into that stuff will wonder if claiming to like pain doesn't indicate some sort of problem.

[NaturalHigh]

110. Yeah, I mentioned that to a couple of people too.

Apparently a lot of people think that personal choice is only good if they approve of your personal choices.

Strange times around here.

[Tetris_Iguana]

111. Yep. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The motto of the ideologue and their black and white viewpoints.

Much better to ignore such self-appointed deities, and delight in the limitless shades of grey that colors the world of us mere mortals.