Tell Young People the Truth: E-Cigarettes and Vaping Flavors Help People Quit Smoking (Alternet)

[Prophet 451]

Elected officials and anti-smoking advocates need to re-think their knee-jerk reaction and hostility to e-cigarettes and vaping. It seems like every day we hear a new attack – yet these products are actually helping some people quit or cut back on the much more dangerous alternative of smoking tobacco. In May, a large study out of England that was published in the journal Addiction made worldwide news when they announced that smokers trying to quit were 60 percent more likely to succeed if they used electronic cigarettes than over-the-counter therapies such as nicotine patches or gum.

Despite these promising results, politicians are grilling e-cigarette companies. In a major New York Times piece last week, Senator Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia denounced manufacturers of flavored e-cigarettes, saying they should be ashamed of themselves and that they are “what’s wrong with this country.” He claims that flavors like coconut, cherry, and peach are designed to hook young people.

While I understand the concern of marketing e-cigarettes to young people and nonsmokers, we cannot lose sight of the fact that these products are helping millions of people stop or cut back on smoking. Vaping is a safer delivery system for nicotine, and many people enjoy the flavor and find it pleasant – that’s why more and more people are turning to it. Do we really want to limit flavors if they are helping people move away from smoking? It is ironic that anti-smoking advocates, whose goal is to get people not to smoke, are attacking a practice that is succeeding in getting people not to smoke. Shouldn’t we be applauding the fact that so many people are embracing this harm reduction practice?

Alternet
__________________________________________________________________

I'm now just over three months from my last cigarette (50-a-day smoker for 25 years) with no cravings, no bad temper, just a couple of days of feeling like I should be doing something with my hands. E-cigs help people quit and the existing research says that the number of people who take up vaping without being smokers first barely exists.

[pnwmom]

1. Where is the research that shows that? I'm glad it's working for you,

but that doesn't mean we should specifically target young people with messages that e-cigs can help people get off cigarettes. They might conclude that it's okay to start vaping even if they never smoked cigarettes.

[onehandle]

2. E-Cigarette companies target audience is almost 100% young people.

It's the new big tobacco, peddling the most addictive substance in the world, nicotine.

If they marketed it as a smoking cessation method, kids would abandon it in droves.

Most jurisdictions, are simply rolling them into existing smoking restrictions (This just happened here in Philadelphia, city-wide). But the industry shills online see that as a 'ban.'

I have no problem with e-cigarettes, just as long as they are not used in my personal space.

E-Cigarette smokers claim that the 'smoke' is just water vapor. That is a lie. The nicotine and 'flavors' hang in the air, just like smoke.

[meow2u3]

129. Wrong. E-cigs' target audience is nearly 100% adult smokers

E-cigs are designed as a alternative to smoking, not as a way to hook young people. If young people take up vaping, it's because they, like older smokers, are looking for a way to get nicotine without all the tar in smoke.

[Bonobo]

3. How many smokers need to tell you

Before you listen?

[pnwmom]

23. Smokers and cigarette companies have ALWAYS made claims about cigarettes that weren't true.

I will respond to research, not anecdotal claims.

[Bonobo]

26. Actually I knew you would say that.

The thing is that studies and surveys can all be manipulated as well.

But you have been told over and over and over by long-time smokers in thread after thread on this subject that e-cigs were the only thing that helped them quit after trying for so long. I mean so many people have told you.... I am starting to believe that you have some kind of problem with the way e-gigs users look or the way you perceive them "flaunting" their behavior or something... and then you are just looking and looking and digging and digging to justify what is actually a really personal hangup you have.

You need to listen a little more. If you are not a smoker and you have never had to try to quit, you really do need to listen and stop it.

That is my 2 dollars (as opposed to 2 cents)

[pnwmom]

34. I will support every effort to get these things in the hands of smokers to help them stop,

as long as e-cigs and vape pens are banned from public places so non-vapers don't have to be exposed to them; and as long as they're not sold or marketed to teens or children.

Deal?

[U4ikLefty]

35. Which public places?

[pnwmom]

38. Indoor public places -- the same places cigarettes are banned from.

[U4ikLefty]

40. Beaches? Parks?

[pnwmom]

44. Personally, I mostly don't care about outdoor places, though it's no fun running a gauntlet

of smokers clustered around an exit door.

[Mariana]

47. What does that have to do with e-cigs?

They don't emit any smoke.

[pnwmom]

57. Steam is quite capable of carrying nicotine and contaminants into lungs.

Last edited Fri Jul 25, 2014, 02:16 AM - Edit history (1)

Why is there this misconception that the e-cig vapor consists of nothing but water?

Researchers have found formaldehyde and nano particles of metals in the vapor of e-cigs, among other toxins.

[U4ikLefty]

71. The e-juice most vapers use contains 4-5 ingredients

1) Vegetable Glycerin
2) Propylene Glycol
3) Flavoring
4) Nicotine
5) Water

None of these contain heavy metals nor formaldehyde

[pnwmom]

95. Let the producers submit their research to the FDA for its review.

Till then, we have the research of independent researchers like those at UCal Riverside and the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, who have found toxins in the vapor of the ecigs they've tested.

And your assumption that no "flavor" can be toxic is incorrect. More than one have been shown to be. For example:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0887233313002610

Highlights
•
Most cinnamon-flavored refill fluids were cytotoxic to embryonic and adult cells.
•
Human embryonic stem cells were more sensitive than adult pulmonary fibroblasts.
•
Four chemicals were identified in cinnamon-flavored refill fluids.
•
Dipropylene glycol and vanillin had low cytotoxicity.
•
Cinnamaldehyde and 2-methoxycinnamaldehyde were cytotoxic in the MTT assay.
Abstract
In a prior study on electronic cigarette (EC) refill fluids, Cinnamon Ceylon was the most cytotoxic of 36 products tested. The purpose of the current study was to determine if high cytotoxicity is a general feature of cinnamon-flavored EC refill fluids and to identify the toxicant(s) in Cinnamon Ceylon. Eight cinnamon-flavored refill fluids, which were screened using the MTT assay, varied in their cytotoxicity with most being cytotoxic. Human embryonic stem cells were generally more sensitive than human adult pulmonary fibroblasts. Most products were highly volatile and produced vapors that impaired survival of cells in adjacent wells. Cinnamaldehyde (CAD), 2-methoxycinnamaldehyde (2MOCA), dipropylene glycol, and vanillin were identified in the cinnamon-flavored refill fluids using gas chromatography–mass spectrometry and high-pressure liquid chromatography (HPLC). When authentic standards of each chemical were tested using the MTT assay, only CAD and 2MOCA were highly cytotoxic. The amount of each chemical in the refill fluids was quantified using HPLC, and cytotoxicity correlated with the amount of CAD/product. Duplicate bottles of the same product were similar, but varied in their concentrations of 2MOCA. These data show that the cinnamon flavorings in refill fluids are linked to cytotoxicity, which could adversely affect EC users.

Corresponding author at: Department of Cell Biology and Neuroscience, University of California, Riverside, CA 92521, United States.



Here, a discussion among vapers about what chemical flavorings are not safe to vape: (One of them acknowledges that most companies who make the flavors haven't tested them for safety.)

http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/comments/152zy6/what_chemicals_not_to_vape/

[Treant]

92. BZZZT!

Retesting with consideration of air quality in the starter air showed no increase in formaldehyde.

Or, the researcher lied.

Nano-particles of metal do appear in the primary vapor. There is no evidence of appearance in secondary vapor and no detection in surrounding air. In short, I'd only be risking myself, not you or your precious spawn...except that amounts are not a risk over a lifetime at continuous exposure.

Other toxins? Define, and show comparable pristine air samples from the sample chamber.

God, woman, stop reading Prue Talbot or at least consider the entire field of study.

[pnwmom]

107. This researcher disagrees with you.

Last edited Fri Jul 25, 2014, 11:48 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/investigations/investigation-reveals-e-cigarette-smokers-may-inhale-metal

Stanton Glantz, professor of medicine at the University of California, said he supports the passage of the bill in California. Glantz told reporters California should mandate that people cannot use an e-cigarette where traditional cigarettes are banned.

SNIP

Glantz believes the second-hand vapor of e-cigarettes could be harmful, too.

"If you are around somebody who is using e-cigarettes, you are breathing in ultra-fine particles and you are breathing in nicotine,” he said. “You are breathing in volatile organic campaigns and metals that are in the vapor."

[politicat]

118. Not trying to be picky, but that last quote: did you c&p that, or re-type it?

Because few credible researchers would type campaigns instead of compounds. (The reverse, often, since the word compound is a muscle memory word.)

If it's your typing error, please edit (and cite the original source) and no harm, no foul.

But if that was from the original, that concerns me as a researcher. An error like that should never have gotten through the editing process, and especially not through peer review. That makes me worry about the validity of the findings, and skeptical of the researcher and the researcher's lab's attention to detail, methods and process. It's rather like the Van Halen M&Ms check-sum: if the little things, like proof-reading, don't work, then what other corners are being cut?

[pnwmom]

126. I think it was the reporter's error. This wasn't a peer reviewed article. It was a MSM report. n/t

[meow2u3]

134. Glantz is a anti-nicotine crusader vapers call ANTZ

ANTZ (anti-nicotine and tobacco zealots)

Glantz is but a self-styled expert in nicotine. He's an economics professor, not a medical doctor. He's just an alarmist on an ideological crusade against e-cigs, no better than the creationists on the right. His findings against all forms of nicotine has been repeatedly disproven since he just changes the facts to fit his preconceived agenda.

More: http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/06/glantz-and-colleagues-support.html

Question is, is Glantz in the pockets of Big Pharma?

[U4ikLefty]

51. Cool, I (and most vapers) have no problem with not vaping indoors

or keeping those nasty disposables away from the kids.

[Bonobo]

36. I would agree to the marketing to kids but not to the ban in public places.

No way.

[pnwmom]

39. What gives you the right to vape your nicotine device in indoor public places?

[Bonobo]

45. What gives you the right to wear perfume?

I was going to say drive your car but I realized it was a terrible analogy since car fumes are hazardous but I don't think the microscopic amount of vapor is.

I mean if I caped and then exhaled right into your mouth at the precise moment you inhaled then you might get some of the vapor but it is not really hazardous so...

Why do you think you have the right to tell me what to do in a public space anyway? It is public. Not private.

[pnwmom]

58. I don't. n/t

[Treant]

80. I don't believe you.

So until we're sure you're safe, we're restricting you to your home so you don't poison the rest of us.

Please submit no more than 20 lab tests at minimum justifying your continued ability to go outside. You must allow us to allow 100 biased researchers paid by us to also study you. The majority will win.

/another argument taken to the ridiculous

[pnwmom]

81. When I'm blowing clouds of perfume "steam" at you, you have a right to complain. n/t

[Treant]

84. I'm complaining now.

It's your job to prove it's harmless. Just because your enormous clouds of toxins and drugs are invisible doesn't mean they aren't there.

Prove. It.

Otherwise ban coffee for the visible clouds of toxins emitted or shut up.

[pnwmom]

85. Good luck with getting your law through any legislature.

None of them have ever instituted a ban on women leaving their houses in case they're wearing perfume.

(And coffee is a food, e-cigs are not. But I don't drink coffee either. Strike 2.)

[Treant]

88. I don't believe you.

Supply affadavits in triplicate because I don't think you're telling the truth. Although you may substitute tea, all juices (contain terpenes) and so on as required.

So what you're saying here is that, as usual, the law is unevenly discriminating against people. But you're OK with that.

Wow.

BTW, coffee's not a food, so strike on that one. It's a beverage. You can drink water...oh, contains chlorine compounds, a toxin. Ban it.

[pnwmom]

104. Wrong again. A food by definition includes beverages.

from dictionary.com

"food":

any nourishing substance that is eaten, drunk, or otherwise taken into the body to sustain life, provide energy, promote growth, etc.

[U4ikLefty]

89. But are you good on banning perfume & cologne in public indoor spaces?

They contain toxic substances that get into the air.

Somebody save the children!

[Treant]

90. Duplicity, of course.

They're fine with refined sugar, caffeine, and oxygen bars (oxygen being a toxin, after all). They'll allow people to eat or drink anything they want, and even to market neurologically active chemicals (caffeine) to children.

They're fine with perfumes because they're invisible. Of course, they've been proven to contain not only toxic chemicals but carcinogens, but somehow that's OK.

Because, y'know, nobody's ever passed a law about it, so that makes it just ducky.

You can take over. If I told Mom what to do and where to do it, I'd probably be banned. But I am most certainly enjoying the image.

I can't take the stupid any longer.

[U4ikLefty]

94. Don't get drawn in

Some are just into "winning" an argument.

It gets boring after a while.

[Treant]

100. It just did get boring.

It's 3:15 AM and I'm being all insomniac. While tendering some gardening advice on another forum, this was a momentary diversion.

The gardening advice will be listened to and possibly discarded as not workable in that instance, but will probably spark some additional ideas so at least I did some good.

Fortunately, tomorrow is a very light day for me and half asleep won't matter.

Keep Strong and Vape On!

[pnwmom]

105. When did I ever propose that? n/t

[snooper2]

113. It's actually already passed one house committee, there will be folks knocking for you in months

you will be submitted to testing seven times a day

[Mariana]

48. Lots of them have zero nicotine.

Would you ban them as well?

[Treant]

93. I'm close!

From a starting point of 22 mg/ml, I'm now down to 4.25 mg/ml. My next cycle, starting in a few days, is 4.

Zero's still quite some time away--although that's more psychological than anything else.

[pnwmom]

106. I would ban them from indoor places because when someone is vaping

other people can't tell by looking whether they're being exposed to nicotine or other harmful substances in the vapor.

For example, one of ingredients in the flavors is highly toxic. It's been determined to be the cause of "popcorn lung."

http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/comments/152zy6/what_chemicals_not_to_vape/

[Treant]

97. Getting back on, you know, actual topic

Marketing to kids...hum. What if the kid already smokes? Vaping's going to be a much healthier alternative for him or her, and I'd rather see them do that than smoke. It seems to be easier to quit from vaping as well--nearly effortless, in fact.

I've seen (and helped out) parents who want their teenagers to quit smoking and start vaping. Kids are more resistant to the change than older people are.

Big hint: it's not cool to vape, and let's face it, the devices aren't exactly what a teen wants to be seen using. The health differential is not a valid argument to a teenager since they're planning on living forever anyway.

It's often a failure, so I tend to recommend minimal gear and just a starter amount of liquid. Most teenagers just keep smoking.

[Mojorabbit]

4. Why would they conclude that? A good marketing push

might help a lot of people quit. I quit after 39 years using an ecig. I am amazed as I had tried every plan known to man over the years with no success.

[edgineered]

5. It is hard to believe that

a company would have a business plan with no future customers. Smokers are declining in number - the tobacco industries with their resources and investments are not going to give up on all the money and just go away. Smoking should go away, but it shouldn't be replaced by something else that can contain addictive substances.

[KittyWampus]

6. Then let's get rid of soda, since it contains addictive substances (caffeine and sugar).

[onehandle]

8. I would agree with that if soda was blown into the air to be breathed in.

But that false analogy is still false.

[KittyWampus]

10. you don't know what an e-cigarette is, then. And the analogy is exact. Vaping doesn't

fill the air with second hand smoke.

[Prophet 451]

12. Bad analogy

There is no second-hand smoke with ecigs. The cloud we breathe out is just water vapour and a little trace flavouring.

[Flatulo]

17. I vape indoors, and my family swears that they can't smell a thing. They've gotten me off of

a 4 cigar per day habit.

Safety nazis will never be happy until we're all wearing helmets in bed.

[Armstead]

21. Lol, great line about the helmets

[awoke_in_2003]

53. +1000. nt

[Treant]

73. Not quite

They'll never be happy until everything they think might be dangerous (and that they themselves don't do) is banned.

But God forbid you ever try to ban something THEY do.

I'm to the point where I'll advise a typical safety hypocrite as to precisely where they can insert their argument. Sideways. Without lube.

[Treant]

72. Your perfume, cologne,

deodorant, shampoo residue, soap residue, moisturizer, makeup, and so on.

Let's face it, you're a big toxin factory and should be banned from ever going into public.

What...those aren't toxic? PROVE IT.

/analag argument to the crap most people here pull

[onehandle]

108. All of those things have practical purpose.

Cigarettes and their electronic counterparts have have the singular purpose of blowing nicotine and chemicals into the air.

E-cigarettes should be sold as smoking cessation devices, but no they are being sold to kids as the new big tobacco. That's why actual Big Tobacco is investing in it. To get around those pesky Joe Camel regulations.

[Prophet 451]

115. Couple of things

Firstly, if they're trying to sell to teens, they're failing to do so. A study last month found that people taking up vaping who were not previous smokers barely existed.

Secondly, very few people who regurly vape use those godawful disposables Big Tobacco is putting out. Most of us are using refillable tanks and liquids from teh internet version of mom n' pop stores.

[edgineered]

9. Yea, and this damned internet thing is a bit, never mind. nt

[onehandle]

7. It's a fad. Sales are declining.

I've seen 'vaping stores' open one month and close the next.

Like cigar stores and 'hookah' places that opened in the 90s, this fad will fade away.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-16/e-cig-sales-slide-as-regular-smokers-return-to-real-thing.html

[Liberal Veteran]

43. The article does point out some interesting facts though.

Price is another issue, said Lamb, the Atlanta smoke shop manager. His customers can pay about $10 for a Blu throwaway e-cig that’s equivalent to about one pack of traditional smokes. Or, they can spend $21 for a nail polish-sized bottle of nicotine liquid and a refillable cigarette -- complete with a battery charger that plugs into a computer -- that equals a carton’s worth of puffs.

The trend hasn’t escaped Lorillard. The company has recruited users with its disposable e-cigs only to lose some to refillable vaporizers, CEO Kessler said during a May 13 investor conference hosted by Goldman Sachs Group Inc. (GS) The devices are larger and have more battery power, allowing them to create more vapor, he said.


It seems to me that big tobacco made a mistake. They assumed people would stick with their disposable crap when a cheaper and better alternative is readily available in the form of refillable vaporizers.

You could be right that it is a fad for some, but for a lot of people who switched from smoking tobacco to vaping, going back to tobacco is off the table. From my own experience after getting used to vaping, the taste of a regular tobacco cigarette is repulsive (not to mention the inconvenience, the mess, the stench, the coughing, phlegm overproduction, etc...). Of course, there is also a huge internet market for e-cigs as well. Many of them are cheaper than local brick and mortar stores even though you have to pay some postage. All of them are a better deal than the cigarettes and the mass-market disposable e-cigs. True, I live in a state where regular cigarettes are 7 to 8 dollars a pack now. So that might be why vaping stores have some staying power here.

[Treant]

70. This.

Those of us who vape are very, very good about pointing out good alternatives to those who ask and are still using a Blu. Something that actually works, in other words.

Those of us we convert never go Blu or any other disposable. They start immediately with an eGo.

[Prophet 451]

11. But...

...most ecig users gradually reduce the amount of nicotine in their liquids until they're huffing flavoured steam. My first few liquids were a mixture of 24 and 18mg nicotine strengths. Since then, I've reduced everything to a uniform 18mg and with my next order, I'll drop down to the next strength (12mg). Once I've removed the nicotine entirely, I'll continue vaping just because I enjoy the sensation.

And the implication that it's a bad business plan that produces no new customers rests on a flawed analogy. More people will always take up smoking and thus, always be looking to quit.

[edgineered]

15. You didn't need to say but,

we speaking the same thing here. Let's get on the topic of the kids and the flavors. Saying that the industry is out to get them is where I was thinking.

[Prophet 451]

18. If they are, they're failing to do so

Stats that I posted here a few months back show that the number of kids taking up vaping who have never previosuly smoked barely exists. There's a few, yes, but very few. Most of teh sweet flavours are going to adults (like me) with a sweet tooth.

[edgineered]

24. Exactly! Exactly why the question of

the tobacco industry just throwing in the towel comes to mind. This isn't some Mom and Pop operation. Their resources will diminish unless they channel their capital into another operation. Hence the tasty flavors for the kids and the continued revenue.

[Prophet 451]

28. They're trying

But they're having the problem that no-one likes teh crappy disposables they're putting out. Most of us (and again, there's stats to support this) go online and buy our kit and liquids from small producers whoi care about their product (I use Totally Wicked and VapeEscape here but yours will be different in the US).

Now, if you want to put an age limit on sales, I'm all for that. I don't know a single vaper who's against age limits. But we like the sweet flavours as well. I'm huffing a cinnamon bun flavour right now.

[edgineered]

32. Depending on the store and vendor

flavors I stick to the cigar and cig flavors myself. There are a few large enough stops here, plus kits and liquids are available everywhere too. The disposables are a joke, but that's what the kids will get, and being kids they'll get the 18 or 24 and end up hooked. We know the ropes, we know better than to commit the lives of the young to a life of addiction.

[Prophet 451]

42. Hmm, age limit the disposables?

Here (UK), you have to be 18 to buy even the disposables. And even getting shipments from an online store requires an adult to sign for them.

[edgineered]

46. That's probably about the best that could be done.

The current rage against vaping is unwarranted and is clearly for political gains. The problem might be the disposable itself. Taking it off the market eliminates the convenience and cost factors for the young. Having to buy a PV might make it tougher because they are harder to hide. We're going to take some kind of hit with this challenge. Someone in power has to fight for us, so we need to fight wisely and know when we've gotten the best deal.

[Bluenorthwest]

121. Every Vape store in my town loudly refuses service to those under 18, although there is no law

requiring them to do so. The State failed to pass such age limits, but the retailers impose age limits themselves. That seems to contradict much of what is being claimed in this thread about marketing 'to children'. Yes, market to children by hanging large 18 And Over Only signs all over the shop. That's the way to market to them, don't even let them in the door!

[U4ikLefty]

16. Also, the good personal vaporizers are not made by Big Tobbaco.

...and PVs are a one time purchase which skews the sale numbers in favor of those crappy disposables sold by Big Tobbaco.

[Prophet 451]

22. I started with one of those

And they were truly godawful. Lasted less than day, too heavy and tasted foul. So, like most users, I went online and brought a personal kit that had nothing to do with Big Tobacco and am buying my liquids from the online equivelent of mom n' pop stores. Small dedicated start-ups of people who care about their product are the lifeblood of vaping.

[Mariana]

59. This may or may not sound paranoid

but I'm convinced that the tobacco companies are selling lousy e-cigs on purpose, because they want people to hate them. They know that most smokers who are interested in trying e-cigs will tend to buy one of their shitty disposable ones first. A lot of those smokers will have a rotten experience, decide vaping isn't for them, and decide to just continue smoking.

[Prophet 451]

64. It did sound paranoid

But then, paranoia can sometimes be justified. If this is their agenda, then they're going to be losing some to the online vamping market. Let's say we have 100 who try those revolting disposables. Maybe 75% will go back to regular smokes but 25 will then go online and find better e-cigs. So Big Tobacco is still losing customers, just not as quickly.

Of course, that also means that those of us who are vaping need to put some effort into letting people know about the great independent stores online that actually care about their customers and their experience.

[Mariana]

74. I can't think of any other reason

for their e-cigs to be as bad as they are, not when there are so many excellent models and tasty flavors already out there. It's not like they're having to invent something from scratch. They could make great disposable e-cigs, if they wanted to. I can only conclude that they don't want to.

[TheKentuckian]

127. White Cloud makes awesome disposables at a fraction of the price.

[Bluenorthwest]

122. People here don't even have to go online, we have Vape shops all over the place.

All the shops cater only to those 18 and older, although there is no law requiring this of them. They just do it because it is the right thing to do. Booming business. 4 shops in easy walking distance.

[Prophet 451]

124. There's only one in teh city where I live

We've got one called VIP which seems to be pushing them as a status symbol and their prices are insane. There was another one briefly in teh city but that location seems to be cursed because they were about the eighth business in that particular shop that opened with much gusto, only to collpase three months later.

Bear in mind, this is the UK so the city I live in has a population of about 700,000.

[Warpy]

62. Right, and tapering down is unconscious, meaning it isn't unpleasant

like stepping down to a lower patch strength is. It comes from not compulsively finishing a whole cigarette because the damned things are expensive. So even though the first 3 drags shut up the nicotine meanies in your head, you're stuck with half a butt you don't really need.

With an e cig, you take as many hits as you need and that's it.

And even if you don't taper down completely, anything is better than sucking concentrated smoke into your lungs 40 times a day.

[Prophet 451]

68. That last bit is important

I can now breathe more easily (or I was before I caught this damn cold), my sense of smell and taste are back. And while nicotine isn't harmless, I've gone from 3000+ toxins to one and I control the dosage on that one.

[Warpy]

29. I think a lot of people will remain customers

even if they use nicotine free juice, just to do something with their hands while they're on the phone or drinking that first cup of coffee in the morning, or getting plastered. Those are the "habit" times that trip a lot of people up after they quit smoking. Having the e cigs around would defeat it completely.

[Prophet 451]

31. That's exactly what I'm doing

Even once I've removed teh nicotine entirely, I'm so used to sitting at the pc with a coffee in one hand and a smoke in the other than I'll just use the ecig instead of smokes. I swear, it's the habit of smoking that's really addictive.

[edgineered]

33. Yup, the damn habit is the killer!

Having the vap handy really does help.

[U4ikLefty]

13. I bought my PV (personal vaporizer) 5 months ago & haven't smoked since.

I think there is a lot of purposeful misinformation about vaping from the haters on these threads.

The anti-smoking zealots aren't interested in reducing the serious harm that comes from inhaling SMOKE (not vapor), they are interested in punishing behavior.

BTW, I love my Provari Mini with some Five Pawns Gambit in a clear IBTanked....mmm tasty!!!

[Prophet 451]

14. You're the second person I've seen recommend Five Pawns

Can't get it over here, sadly. I'm currently vaping Totally Wicked's Cinnamon Bun. And my SO is overjoyed that I've quit.

[U4ikLefty]

19. It's a bit pricey, but their Gambit & their Castle Long are soooo delicious.

I've heard good things about Totally Wicked. I may try them on my next e-juice buying spree.

Congrats on giving up the stinkies!!!

[Fuddnik]

27. I have a totally wicked. So does my wife,

Works great, but every couple of months you have to buy a new top (wick and tank) for about $15. They start to leak.

[Prophet 451]

30. I use the liquids but not their PV

Their PV is a bit too expensive for my fixed income (I'm disabled). I'm using an eGo-C battery with TW's clear tanks and replaceable wick system. Have to buy a new wick every six weeks or so but works great.

[Treant]

75. I make my own

It's easy and ends up costing about $0.03 per ml.

It's not gourmet, but I don't need gourmet.

And it does tend to get the antis to shut up when I point that out. It's made from pharmaceutical grade ingredients, I know exactly what I put in there and in what amount, and under what conditions I made it.

[Prophet 451]

99. I don't have the nerve for that

I'bve looked into it because I can't find a really good chocolate mint flavour. But I'd be too scared of screwing it up. And with my mental issues (extreme MDD, GAD, "visions" and voices) having bottles of a lethal poison around would probably be vetoed by my SO.

[PennyK]

20. It worked for me

Next Monday night will be the 6 month mark for me, a former pack-and-a-half a day smoker. No more coughing, and I can sing again! I belong to an on-line chat group where we all discuss our favorite devices and gourmet juices. I'm in Heaven because I never thought I'd be able to quit. I do spend a lot of my gear, but it's worth ten times as much to me!

[Prophet 451]

25. Congrats, dude!

So many of us are finding a way to easily quit. And sure, we might spend a lot on our gear but it's better for us.

[msongs]

37. if its not air I would prefer you keep your vapors to yourself nt

[Prophet 451]

41. Fair enough, I'll try to keep the vapour away from you

The stuff we exhale is just water vapour and some trace flavouring but if you'd prefer to be away from it, then most of us are polite enough to keep it away from you.

[awoke_in_2003]

52. don't worry, most of us will

we are used to being treated as pariah

[awoke_in_2003]

54. don't ever fart...

because I prefer you keep your vapors to yourself.

[Treant]

76. Or breathe

People produce toxic, dangerous formaldehyde. The sub-OP has no right to make me breathe his or her formaldehyde.

[awoke_in_2003]

49. It all comes down to loss of tax revenue...

less people smoking cigarettes=less money taken in.

[Prophet 451]

55. Which explains teh political rage

Here (UK), we've gotten somewhat organised and are fighting against the legislation. I'm fine with a small tax (say, 5%) because nicotine along isn't harmless and the tax money helps the NHS deal with nicotine related illnesses. Recently, the EU enacted legislation that will come into play in two years and says:
- You must be 18 or over (fine)
- Liquids cannot be sold at more than 20mg strength (mildly irritation to those currently on 24)
- Liquids can only be sold in 10ml bottles (annoying to those, like me, who like to buy liquids in bulk)
- Tanks can be no more than 2ml (that one's going to be a big problem because most of us are using larger tanks, mine are 2.5ml)

[awoke_in_2003]

56. very true, nicotine is a bad drug...

but the push against them (e-cig producers) is by people in the back pocket of cigarette producers. You can ween yourself of nicotine in e-cigs by lowering the concentration, with cigarettes you have no choice. And as long as you are addicted to nicotine, the cigarette manufacturers (and tobacco companies) have you just where they want you.

[Mariana]

69. The liquid can be made up at home

if they jack the tax on it way up, or restrict sales of liquid in some other way. That's especially true if you get to where you're using zero nicotine - it's easy to get nicotine in the US, but that may not be true everywhere. All the other ingredients are cheap and readily available.

Hardware is trickier, of course.

[Treant]

77. Check out The Puck

The plans are online. Ends are actually standard cable connections (both the 510 and 808, although I don't remember the corresponding cable connection numbers).

The Puck uses NiMH batteries you can get at the grocery store, and either an Altoids tin or a project box from Radio Shack.

Really, try to ban my e-cig. I do own a soldering iron and lead-free solder.

[Mariana]

82. Excellent.

After I posted that I spent a little time thinking about how I'd go about building a rig, and determined that it wouldn't be all that difficult. I expect if the hardware is ever banned (or taxed to death) we'll see plans for hundreds of variations of homemade e-cigs to pop up. Along with step-by-step instructions and how-to vids for the mechanically disinclined.

[Treant]

86. The Puck has that.

Unless they want to ban all batteries, I can whomp something together from a trip to Radio Shack. At a cost of about $10.

It won't be pretty, but battery life will be good, the batteries replaceable and rechargeable, and the box easy to fix at home.

Mechanicals are trivial to make as they have no (and don't need any) voltage moderation. They run at the voltage of the lithium battery (4.2 to 3.6 V dropping over the charge).

Electronics can be made by any hobbyist and could have voltage moderation.

Or simply save your old, spent eGos, and if the worst happens you can detach the screw for the top and hook the wires to any LiMn (3.7 V, protected or safe chemistry) battery.

Trivial. And I have a dozen spent pen style eGos in my drawer.

[Leith]

50. My Last Tobacco Cig Was in October

I've been vaping peppermint ever since. It's like smoking Altoids (which I love).

I'm lucky in that I have a store about 10 minutes from me that I get supplies at.

For those who are virulently anti-smoking and anti-vaping: e-cigs are not cigarettes. The vapor will not do anything to you that sitting next to someone using an asthma inhaler would do. We are off tobacco because of these things. Could you lighten up just a tad on that? Inhaling helium to talk funny is no different - would you start freaking out at a child's birthday party because of it?

As for the flavors: when is the last time you checked out flavors of alcohol available to buy? Schnapps alone comes in all fruit and candy flavors. Daiquiris are basically fruit-flavored slushes. How does that not appeal to kids? When is the last time somebody complained about hard lemonade because of the flavor?

[Mariana]

83. You're right about the flavors in alcoholic beverages.

Really, does anyone over 18 drink Strawberry Hill?

As for the virulently anti folks, I think some of them are enraged that smokers are quitting without being made miserable. They hate smokers and want them to suffer, even after they've quit. It galls them no end that smokers are quitting and are enjoying doing it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

60. "...the number of people who take up vaping without being smokers first barely exists."

Now if they had WEED flavored.....

[Prophet 451]

65. I wouldn't be surprised if there already were

An e-cig can take pretty much any sort of liquid and cannabis oil has been around for centuries so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that some people were combining the two.

[Bluenorthwest]

123. I use a special vaping device built for vaping cannabis concentrates, oils and the like.

Soon I will get another which will allow vaping of plant materials, that is cannabis itself. There are entire lines of product for these uses in places with Medical Marijuana or legal Marijuana in the US.

[Prophet 451]

125. You're ahead of us

Our government refuses to even consider the idea of cannabis having a medical use, let alone recreational.

[Treant]

78. They do.

It's listed as "MJ" in many cases, or "Mary Jane" if they're quite risque.

I've never tried it. I prefer a nice mint.

[C Moon]

61. I don't see why there should be an issue of banning it from public places until it is affirmed that

the exhaust of an e-cig doesn't have any ill effects on a person sitting a foot away from an e-cig user.
Folks that don't smoke, have never smoked, and don't want to smoke, should be assured that an e-cig is not affecting their health.

[Prophet 451]

67. The only problem with that

is that the governments in both our country's (I'm a Brit) are very good at banning things with the slightest provocation but it takes an act of god to get them to rescind the ban.

What research has already been done says that what we exhale is just water vapour and some trace flavouring. It's not a danger to any humans or animals in the vicinity.

[C Moon]

79. Very true. But I think, as with cigarettes,

that it should be common courtesy (considering that we don't know the e-cig effects on others), that they not be used in close proximity to others who are not using them.

I'm in Southern California, and the state has no-smoking laws and that has made me used to smoke-free environments, so I'm probably not the best person to talk to this about.

FYI: I used to play in music in smoke filled clubs, rehearse with a band of smokers, and lived with my guitar player and his wife who were chain smokers, but it sure didn't bother me when California passed laws banning smoking in public. It's been nice only breathing it in once in a blue moon.

[Mariana]

87. Well, the good thing about e-cigs

is that they don't burn, and therefore don't create or emit any smoke at all. Even if you were surrounded by people using them, you'd still be in a smoke-free environment. If you didn't see them doing it, you'd have no idea it was going on. Even so, I imagine few people are likely use them in public places, because it can look like they're smoking and most don't want to attract any negative attention.

I've been told that one of my flavors has a very slight vanilla odor.

[the_sly_pig]

63. Vaping helps people quit. end of story.

People can get into a good kit for about $100. I was convinced that my nicotine addition would last the rest of my life. Since back in the 1960's my parent smoked in the home and in the car, I have been exposed to cigarette smoke since birth. I have never been without nicotine in my system my whole life.

I began with juice that had 18mg, went to 12mg, went to 6mg and now my next bottle will be 3mg. For $8 I can get what amounts to a carton of cigarettes. I plan on getting a bottle of 0mg following the 3mg.

I don't care what the business plan is for these products. It has helped me reduce my nicotine addiction. I am proud of that.

[Prophet 451]

66. And so you should be

Congrats to you, dude!

[Behind the Aegis]

91. Did we quit at the same time? (Apr 3.)

Your addition sounds like me, except it was 29 years! I have had some horrible cravings, especially when my beloved cat, Tony, died in my arms. I figure if I didn't smoke then, then I might be OK.

[Prophet 451]

96. Nearly

I quit Apr 23rd so I'm just over three months now.

And my sympathies for your kittie. We've lost four over the years to everything from cancer (Sandy) to old age (Suki, at 16) and it never gets easier to lose our babies. Mine have saved my life numerous times (I suffer from extreme MDD and my cats have prevented my suicide many times).

[Behind the Aegis]

103. Good for you! As for the other thing...

[cbayer]

98. While I think these should be available alternatives, the real success is in quitting the addiction.

Anything that helps people reduce their use of smoked tobacco has merit, but as long as the manufacturers can keep you addicted, you are a slave.

I quit just over a month ago after reading "The Easyway". I smoked my last cigarette while reading the last chapter and I don't think I will ever smoke again. This is after smoking over a pack a day since age 12 (over 45 years).

[Prophet 451]

101. Well, most of us taper down our nicotine slowly

I started out with a mixture of 24mg and 18mg strengths and after a couple of months, I reduced everything to a uniform 18mg. Over time, I'll gradually reduce down to 12mg, then 8mg and so on. Easy and painless to do. After that, I'll just be huffing flavoured steam because I enjoy it.

[cbayer]

102. I'm glad that is working for you, but it never worked for me.

Nicotine withdrawal itself is rather brief and not all that painful, imo. They want you to think that it is much worse than it is.

The really painful part is the psychological addiction, the feeling deprived and experiencing all those terrible things they tell you will happen like weight gain, severe irritability, insomnia, etc.

This book I used had a "stick it to the man" approach which really grabbed me. I realize that I had been a patsy for years and that the only thing I was doing was putting off the withdrawal for another 45 minutes or so.

While I support whatever method works for each individual, for me giving nicotine the big middle finger was what worked. I know I would have relapsed quickly if I had used another nicotine delivery system.

[Babel_17]

131. Congrat's on your success using The Easy Way

It really is an amazing message.

[CBGLuthier]

109. I quit smoking several years ago. Should I start vaping?

If your answer is anything other than yes then I think you should admit it is a POOR message to tell kids that vaping is a safe alternative.

I still say you have quit nothing. You just exchanged one nipple for another.

I will not be a slave to a tobacco company.

[randome]

110. Perfectly stated!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[Prophet 451]

112. Vaping is safer than smoking

It is not perfectly safe. But those of us who've gone from smoking to vaping have gone from 3000+ toxins to 1 and one where we control the dosage and, in most cases, will gradually taper it down. It's not safe but it is safer.

No, kids who've never smoked should not take up vaping (and the stats say barely any do) but scaremongering about it's effects are a good way to end up ignored entirely.

[onehandle]

117. Cocaine is safer than heroin.

Therefore we should put cocaine in baby formula.

[Prophet 451]

119. Fallacy of teh excluded middle

I'm not claiming nicotine is harmless, only that it's less harmful than cigarette smoke.

[LWolf]

111. The whole truth.

Tell them the whole truth. That e-cigs can help people quit smoking, but that they don't end nicotine addition. E-Cigs are a nicotine delivery system.

Tell them that nicotine addiction is similar to heroine and cocaine addiction, and may be harder to quit.

Tell them that while E-Cigs diminish the dangers of lung cancer from smoking, nicotine has other harmful effects on the body relating to heart attacks and strokes, and that a different delivery system doesn't change that.

I am a supporter of E-Cigs for those already addicted. They are less harmful than smoking tobacco. I don't, though, want to see them marketed. I don't want them to become a vehicle for making nicotine addiction fashionable again.

I'd like them to be regulated as medical support for those quitting smoking. Made available by prescription. I don't want to see a fresh wave of nicotine addiction hit the nation.

Of course, I grew up in a time when smoking was ubiquitous, am the daughter of a reformed smoker, and I spent 10 years married to a smoker who literally took the money I had set aside to make sure my babies had milk until payday to buy cigarettes. As those babies grew older, I had to resort to more and more extreme ways to hide their piggy banks and allowance, because he'd find them and rush off to feed his addiction if his carton didn't last from paycheck to paycheck. He had no second thoughts about stealing from his own kids to feed that addiction.

I don't want to go backwards when it comes to wide spread nicotine addiction.

[Prophet 451]

114. To take those in order

Yes, ecigs are a nicotine delivery system and should not be thought of as harmless. While they're a lot less harmful than cigarettes, nicotine alone is not harmless and has various nasty effects on teh body.

I'll take your word for it on nicotine addiction, I haven't seen any studies on it.

Marketing: This is a complicated one. There needs to be some marketing in order for current smokers to be able to find them and take advantage of them. But marketing needs to be carefully considered so it doesn't attract people who aren't current smokers (although research says that the people who take up vaping without having smoked barely exists). Maybe you could put ads on the cigarette packs? Where there's the big picture of blackened lungs or whatever, put an ad above it for e-cigs?

The problem with making them listed as medical devices is that, in a country where you still have to pay for doctor's visits, that could make them too expensive to be useful. Here (UK), the NHS is looking into adding them to their smoking cessation aids which means that your doctor prescribes it and you get a generic ecig and some generic juice (in one of three or four flavours) for free so I have no objection to them going on prescription here (although I'd like to still be able to buy my tasty juices).

Finally, I'm sorry for your experiencves with your ex. That's less about being a smoker and more about being a jerk though.

[LWolf]

116. Jerk? Yes.

It's also an example of the excesses of an addict, and he was an addict. He told me that it was easier to kick heroin, which he did, than cigarettes. I've seen that from more official sources, as well.

Insurance issues...that's a point. A point I wish were moot, as I'd like a NHS here in America.

[Prophet 451]

120. Fully agreed on that last part

The US could set up a commission, examine the existing healthcare systems around teh world and then mix/match the best bits until you come up with something uniquely American. That would be making teh fact that you're coming to this late work for you.

[Babel_17]

128. Not being addicted to nicotine should be a short term goal, imo

Real cigarettes contain nicotine, and might be seen as an optional fix/temptation for those addicted to it.

Cigarette smokers are known to be at higher risk for developing cancers, the biggest risk being lung cancer; tobacco users are 15 to 30 times more likely to be diagnosed with or die as a result of lung cancer than nonsmokers, and tobacco use is responsible for as many as 90 percent of all lung cancer cases [source: CDC]. Despite the marketing claims that e-cigarettes are safer than smoking tobacco, researchers are finding e-cig users experience diminished lung function, airway resistance and cellular changes, regardless of whether or not they currently (or ever) smoke cigarettes. And in the lab, cells exposed to e-cigarette vapor show unhealthy changes similar to cells exposed to tobacco smoke [source: Park et al]. Users who vape nicotine-free e-cigs can't escape the effects, either; they also experience airway resistance and other signs of inflammation as side effects of e-cigarette use.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/smoking-cessation/10-facts-about-e-cigarettes.htm#page=10

“There’s no question that a puff on an e-cigarette is less toxic than a puff on a regular cigarette,” says Stanton Glantz, director of the Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education at the University of California, San Francisco. But few studies have looked at the toxicity of their vapors. As a result, scientists have been circumspect about describing e-cigarettes as safe.

For a May 13 review in Circulation, Glantz and his team pored over emerging data on what vapers are inhaling and found, he says, greater risk than scientists had thought. E-cigarettes deliver high levels of nanoparticles, the researchers found, which can trigger inflammation and have been linked to asthma, stroke, heart disease, and diabetes (SN: 7/18/09, p. 26). The levels “really raise concerns about heart disease and other chronic conditions where inflammation is involved,” he says.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/health-risks-e-cigarettes-emerge

Some personal links:

The Stop Smoking video library of Joel Spitzer (bookmark it for a friend)

Allen Carr's Easyway to Stop Smoking (the video)

Two years free thanks to Allen Carr's system

[cbayer]

130. Allen Carr is my personal hero.

I credit him with saving my life, literally.

I know it may not work well for everyone, but this is what did it for me.

Thanks so much for posting.

[Babel_17]

132. My pleasure

It worked for my two friends at work as well. I read that book back and forth, I bought the condensed version, and I watched the video time after time. It was a relief to let the message sink in. I didn't have to be a smoker.

[cbayer]

133. He had me from the beginning when he said that I would rejoice, not suffer.

And he was right.

Someone had given me his book a couple of years ago, but I wasn't ready. I was ready two months ago and I am amazed at how positive I feel about the whole experience.

He's the real deal. Did you know that he died of lung cancer? Profound and heartbreaking, but he has saved many, many lives.