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name not needed

(11,660 posts)
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 03:14 PM Jul 2014

France's Jews Flee As Rioters Burn Paris Shops, Attack Synagogue

France's politicians and community leaders have criticised the "intolerable" violence against Paris' Jewish community, after a pro-Palestinian rally led to the vandalizing and looting of Jewish businesses and the burning of cars.

It is the third time in a week where pro-Palestinian activists have clashed with the city's Jewish residents. On Sunday, locals reported chats of "Gas the Jews" and "Kill the Jews", as rioters attacked businesses in the Sarcelles district, known as "little Jerusalem".

Manuel Valls, France's prime minister said: “What happened in Sarcelles is intolerable. An attack on a synagogue and on a kosher shop is simply anti-Semitism. Nothing in France can justify this violence.”

Religious leaders gathered for an interfaith service on Monday to call for calm, and Haim Korsia, the chief rabbi of France, and Hassen Chalghoumi, the imam of Drancy shook hands on the steps of the synagogue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/france-jewish-shops-riot_n_5608612.html?comm_ref=false

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France's Jews Flee As Rioters Burn Paris Shops, Attack Synagogue (Original Post) name not needed Jul 2014 OP
this is why they tried to ban protests there , it wasn't about taking away freedom JI7 Jul 2014 #1
And the usual suspects were lauding these protests Codeine Jul 2014 #2
When protests against Israel become about "Killing The Jews" it's back to anti-Semitism Hekate Jul 2014 #3
The problem is that since the Israeli government is bombing hospitals and mosques malaise Jul 2014 #50
I agree with you except I am not so sure it is the native Europeans smirkymonkey Jul 2014 #17
Ethnic communities? Like the Irish? AngryAmish Jul 2014 #20
No, Arabic/North African, etc. smirkymonkey Jul 2014 #22
Yes. There's a big difference between voicing concerns about Gaza... conservaphobe Jul 2014 #36
Unlike most of my co-citizen who are blinded by hatred, mylye2222 Jul 2014 #56
I'm not surprised that this one dropped like a stone. Codeine Jul 2014 #4
It's completely irrelevant to what is happening in Gaza, that's why anti partisan Jul 2014 #5
+1000 Katashi_itto Jul 2014 #7
Thanks anti partisan Jul 2014 #9
Rallies and protests about Gaza Codeine Jul 2014 #8
There is right, and there is wrong anti partisan Jul 2014 #11
On the contrary; Codeine Jul 2014 #13
Fair enough. As I am not European I cannot speak much for them anti partisan Jul 2014 #15
+1. An inconvenient truth nt riderinthestorm Jul 2014 #23
+1 leftstreet Jul 2014 #24
It is not irrelevant. Bonobo Jul 2014 #28
Simply not a discussion worth having at the moment? NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #52
It's not really helpful... Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #41
This is horrible! herding cats Jul 2014 #6
What's wrong with these valiant protestors Codeine Jul 2014 #10
Are you trying to strawman general opposition to Israeli policy? anti partisan Jul 2014 #12
As many anti-Semites on the European left Codeine Jul 2014 #14
" because they want to keep the population down for what they feel are inferior minorities" sufrommich Jul 2014 #16
That is simply not true anti partisan Jul 2014 #18
Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #51
They aren't welcome in the pro-choice movement any more than... anti partisan Jul 2014 #60
I didn't laud them, I don't think I even saw the post in question. herding cats Jul 2014 #21
And the difference between this and a pogram is? AngryAmish Jul 2014 #19
Vibes to all the people affected and afraid in France. applegrove Jul 2014 #25
And a bit of insight as to how DU deals with open anti-Semitism; Codeine Jul 2014 #26
It's sickening. nt Bonobo Jul 2014 #29
It is as the defense of those types of posts. Behind the Aegis Jul 2014 #38
You blame DU for a stupid post made by someone who only has 300 posts? scarletwoman Jul 2014 #31
i think it was alerted on and other DU members let it stand, but there are other examples JI7 Jul 2014 #34
Only two people objected to the post. Two. Hardly a ringing condemnation. Bonobo Jul 2014 #35
Did anyone agree with it? Did anyone say, "Right on, bro"? scarletwoman Jul 2014 #37
I wouldn't judge all of DU by it either. Bonobo Jul 2014 #40
I think what we are witnessing is lock-step behavior. Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #42
Yes, I have been accused of "supporting the Gaza offensive" because nuance is unthinkable to some. Bonobo Jul 2014 #43
A jury let it stand. Codeine Jul 2014 #46
Surely you cannot be surprised leftynyc Jul 2014 #47
Yeah, I know. Codeine Jul 2014 #48
In general, DU has a very high tolerance for anti-semitism. egduj Jul 2014 #49
Yes, and that has bothered me for a long time. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #53
See post #50 above. Behind the Aegis Jul 2014 #58
I just replied to that post. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #54
France is facing major problems with its minorities and integrating them into French society aint_no_life_nowhere Jul 2014 #27
Immigration can be a problem RobertEarl Jul 2014 #30
Extremism in its worst form. conservaphobe Jul 2014 #32
Oh my god that's scary. ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #33
The last one, before the ban... Behind the Aegis Jul 2014 #39
This literally makes me sick to my stomach. ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #44
omg! Marrah_G Jul 2014 #45
Stay classy France. n/t dilby Jul 2014 #55
I was in Paris two weeks ago and saw some anti-Jewish graffiti. n/t LeftinOH Jul 2014 #57
Nuit de Cristal? KamaAina Jul 2014 #59

JI7

(89,172 posts)
1. this is why they tried to ban protests there , it wasn't about taking away freedom
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 03:15 PM
Jul 2014

but security reasons.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
2. And the usual suspects were lauding these protests
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 03:35 PM
Jul 2014

and congratulating the French for their anti-Israel stance.

I believe you can be against Israeli actions in the occupied territories and not be an anti-Semite, but that combination rarely seems to be the case with our European friends.

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
3. When protests against Israel become about "Killing The Jews" it's back to anti-Semitism
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:05 PM
Jul 2014

...which is as vile as what is going on in Gaza -- it's only more vile because of anti-Semitism's deep and apparently ineradicable roots in Europe.

Ever since those 3 Israeli teens were kidnapped I haven't been able to get the Irish anti-war song "There Were Roses" out of my head: "It's an eye for an eye and another eye, till all the world is blind."

I condone none of this, none.

malaise

(267,785 posts)
50. The problem is that since the Israeli government is bombing hospitals and mosques
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:00 AM
Jul 2014

we can expect nothing more than "It's an eye for an eye and another eye, till all the world is blind."

When almost 150 children are slaughtered we can expect nothing more than "It's an eye for an eye and another eye, till all the world is blind."

Just screaming Anti-Semitism is a convenient self-serving response - this is a reaction to the genocide taking place in Gaza in much the same way as the world turned on the Nazis for the horrific genocide of European Jews.

I watched Regev spewing his BS on GEM$NBComcast this morning while the other camera was fixed on the destruction in Gaza. Israel has lost all credibility on this one.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
17. I agree with you except I am not so sure it is the native Europeans
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 07:10 PM
Jul 2014

that are the bulk of the attackers, but the muslim immigrant and ethnic communities.

 

conservaphobe

(1,284 posts)
36. Yes. There's a big difference between voicing concerns about Gaza...
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:29 AM
Jul 2014

And violently attacking people just because they're Jewish.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
56. Unlike most of my co-citizen who are blinded by hatred,
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 11:41 AM
Jul 2014

I since yars, do make a difference between Israel authorities, and its people and jewish religion. And I am ashamed at whats happened, and very afraid of my country's immediate future.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
4. I'm not surprised that this one dropped like a stone.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:20 PM
Jul 2014

Nobody wants to acknowledge what their friends in the anti-Israel camp really think when push comes to shove.

anti partisan

(429 posts)
5. It's completely irrelevant to what is happening in Gaza, that's why
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:36 PM
Jul 2014

It is simply not a discussion worth having at the moment. You can't choose who happens to jump on your ship, you've just got to make sure that you choose the right ship. And if some Nazi types happen to jump on, that is very unfortunate, but if you were on the right ship before, you're still on it.

anti partisan

(429 posts)
9. Thanks
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:43 PM
Jul 2014

I should have made it clear that I don't think this news should be glossed over. These anti-Semitic attacks are disgusting and should be condemned at every chance possible.

They just have no place in a discussion about Gaza because they are two completely different topics, although Israel's actions surely are helping anti-Semitism flourish, which is a huge reason why a lot of people who care deeply for the state of Israel also condemn their actions.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
8. Rallies and protests about Gaza
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:41 PM
Jul 2014

aren't relevant in a discussion about the international outcry about Gaza?

It's a discussion you'd rather -understandably - run from because it shows what underpins a great deal of anti-Israeli sentiment.

anti partisan

(429 posts)
11. There is right, and there is wrong
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:47 PM
Jul 2014

Anti-Semitism is deeply wrong.

Israeli policy is deeply wrong.

Wrongs should always be opposed. This is my opinion, and you are entitled to yours. But please don't try to use one wrong to try to shroud the other wrong.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
13. On the contrary;
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:52 PM
Jul 2014

I see one as a thin veil of justification for the other. There's a strong streak of anti-Semitism in the European Left, and I think that's the primary motivator for these sorts of protests.

On the other hand, I don't get the same vibe from most American protestors. This strikes me as more a European phenomena.

anti partisan

(429 posts)
15. Fair enough. As I am not European I cannot speak much for them
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 07:02 PM
Jul 2014

I think there is a higher Muslim/Arabic population in Europe who have suffered a lot and may be likely to unfairly attribute Israeli policies to "the Jews", as well as a nationalistic/neo-Nazi element, and there do exist situations where haters protest alongside the actual leftists. However, one of the prerequisites for being on the Left is to oppose all kinds of racism/anti-ethnic attitudes. It's obviously unfortunate that there is this kind of vile hate present at demonstrations which are intended by the majority element to OPPOSE hate, but I don't see that as a reason not to protest. It is sadly reducing the effectiveness of the protests as well, and I do not like that trend.

leftstreet

(36,076 posts)
24. +1
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 07:59 PM
Jul 2014

It's like assuming the Mexican-US border child refugee crisis, and the atrocities in the countries they've come from, is relevant to the racist US nutters protesting immigration

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
52. Simply not a discussion worth having at the moment?
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:23 AM
Jul 2014

Gee, when can we get around to talking about a bunch of Jew-hating nutjobs burning down Jewish property and Jewish people afraid for their lives?

Your reply is just disgusting.

Un-fucking-believable.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
41. It's not really helpful...
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:58 AM
Jul 2014

to pretend that "anti-Likud" or "anti-expansion of territories" is equivalent to "anti-Israel". Nor is it really helpful to pretend that opposition to the Israeli government's actions is monolithic, or that the actions of some protesters who may in fact be anti-Semitic represents "the anti-Israel camp". It's just as intellectually dishonest as lumping in all opposition to US military interventionism with the Pat Buchanan/Ron Paul/Justin Raimondo far-right, or pointing to the violence instigated by "black bloc" anarchists as representative of "the anti-war camp".

herding cats

(19,549 posts)
6. This is horrible!
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:38 PM
Jul 2014

What the hell is wrong with these people? This reminds me of when people here were attacking anyone they thought was Muslim after 9/11.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
10. What's wrong with these valiant protestors
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:44 PM
Jul 2014

whose bravery and firm stand against Israel were being lauded yesterday here at DU?

They're filthy anti-Semite Jew-haters, that's what's wrong with them, and their presence is all too predictable in this area.

anti partisan

(429 posts)
12. Are you trying to strawman general opposition to Israeli policy?
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:51 PM
Jul 2014

Because the vast majority is from the left, not the radical right.

A small minority of the pro-choice movement has taken their position because they want to keep the population down for what they feel are inferior minorities. However, it is very easy to support a woman's right to choose despite these disgusting racists. Ditto for opposing Israeli policy.

sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
16. " because they want to keep the population down for what they feel are inferior minorities"
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 07:02 PM
Jul 2014

That is a horrible untruth.There is no such group in the pro choice movement.

anti partisan

(429 posts)
18. That is simply not true
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 07:10 PM
Jul 2014

Google that on Stormfront and you will see there are a lot of folks there who are pro-choice because "the Blacks and Mexicans are going to overtake the whites otherwise". A small segment of the pro-choice movement but a segment nonetheless.

Response to anti partisan (Reply #18)

anti partisan

(429 posts)
60. They aren't welcome in the pro-choice movement any more than...
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:52 PM
Jul 2014

anti-Semites are welcome in the movement protesting Israeli policy.

You really don't get that, and as a result claim I "hang" at Stormfront? What is wrong with you?

herding cats

(19,549 posts)
21. I didn't laud them, I don't think I even saw the post in question.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 07:40 PM
Jul 2014

Some forget, or never really understood, there's an entire global population of people who have been persecuted for nothing more than being Jewish for centuries. Sadly, it takes only a spark to reignite that persecution in certain people. The last thing any person on this board should ever want to encourage is anti Semitic actions of any kind. No matter what anyone may think about Netanyahu and his policies, there's no excusing what these people did to innocent people in France today.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
19. And the difference between this and a pogram is?
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 07:14 PM
Jul 2014

Why are the French so anti-semetic? What is wrong with France? Of all the wars on earth, why do the French take sides against Israelis? No anti-Russian riots?

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
26. And a bit of insight as to how DU deals with open anti-Semitism;
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 10:27 PM
Jul 2014

they let shit like this post stand

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=71731

". . .majority of Jews around the world will abandon any morals they have just so they can support the country Israel."

That's acceptable discourse now at DU.

scarletwoman

(31,893 posts)
31. You blame DU for a stupid post made by someone who only has 300 posts?
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:23 AM
Jul 2014

Did you happen to notice the replies to that post? The fact that the reactions of other DUers to that post was disgust and disavowal? Why would you say that the post was "acceptable discourse" when no other DUers agreed with it? I think that's rather dishonest.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
35. Only two people objected to the post. Two. Hardly a ringing condemnation.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:28 AM
Jul 2014

I think it is a bit dishonest to pretend that it was disavowed by DU.

It was not hidden and it was largely uncontested.

Codeine's description of it being considered "acceptable discourse" is justified and demonstrated well.

scarletwoman

(31,893 posts)
37. Did anyone agree with it? Did anyone say, "Right on, bro"?
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:49 AM
Jul 2014

I'm sorry that a jury didn't hide it - I would have voted to hide, had I been on a jury for that post. DU juries are notorious for their crappy judgement, so I don't see why one would draw any broad conclusions from any particular jury vote.

I just don't think it's fair to judge DU as a whole by one asshole's post, and by one jury's failure to hide it.

Furthermore, since the post in question was made in the I/P group, which is not exactly a popular hang-out for probably most DUers, why should DU as a whole be judged by how many DUers contest such a post? I personally have avoided the I/P group for many years, just like I avoid the Gungeon. There are just some places a great many of us prefer not to go.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
40. I wouldn't judge all of DU by it either.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:55 AM
Jul 2014

But if asked the question: Is it acceptable discourse on DU, I would have to conclude that it is largely acceptable since it was not "not accepted".

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
42. I think what we are witnessing is lock-step behavior.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:13 AM
Jul 2014

At best some just remain silent, but this is actually where the most damage occurs, remaining silent gives the purveyors of anti-semitism the impression that theirs is the popular position, that we are all on board. It is the black and white dichotomy, something I will say, I see just as much on the left as the right. As if supporting Palestinians requires one must oppose,or at least remain silent in their support of Jewish people and of Israel.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
43. Yes, I have been accused of "supporting the Gaza offensive" because nuance is unthinkable to some.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:18 AM
Jul 2014

If I DARE to suggest that before Americans condemn Israel as the next thing closest to Nazis, they should consider that they have killed 100 times or 1,000 times the numbers of Iraqis and Afghanis 7,0000 miles away, then I MUST be pro-killing of Palestinians.

It is madness and you are right, it is a larger symptom of the BS dichotomy that Americans have had beaten into their skulls by our political system and the natural human predilection for black and white thinking.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
47. Surely you cannot be surprised
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:49 AM
Jul 2014

I've seen that and worse here on DU - I've been here a very long time.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
48. Yeah, I know.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:05 AM
Jul 2014

But it was just so damned blatant -- no dog whistles, no carefully-couched buzzwords, just an out-and-out condemnation of Jooooz.

Sigh.

egduj

(804 posts)
49. In general, DU has a very high tolerance for anti-semitism.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:48 AM
Jul 2014

I didn't think it was that high, though.

Behind the Aegis

(53,823 posts)
58. See post #50 above.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:44 PM
Jul 2014

Apparently, even discussing French Jews being attacked is "Just screaming Anti-Semitism is a convenient self-serving response." Apparently, all Jews are responsible for the actions in Gaza, according to that poster.

this is a reaction to the genocide taking place in Gaza in much the same way as the world turned on the Nazis for the horrific genocide of European Jews.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
54. I just replied to that post.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:34 AM
Jul 2014

Unfortunately, I couldn't say what I really wanted to because it would have been locked.

aint_no_life_nowhere

(21,925 posts)
27. France is facing major problems with its minorities and integrating them into French society
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:45 PM
Jul 2014

According to Al Jazeera, these protests in Paris with violence against synagogues and hatred against Jews was primarily conducted by Arabic speaking people in France and organized by young French Muslim activists. France has the largest Jewish population in Europe and also the largest Islamic population living in a relatively small area. It's estimated that approximately 700 young Muslim men with French passports are fighting for ISIS in Syria and Iraq. The friction between Arab and Jew is apparently growing in Europe. For whatever reason, whether it's the fault of French society with its stratification and rigid economy or their own refusal to fully integrate within French culture, these young Muslim groups have some very angry young men. Probably it's just a few extremist hotheads however that infiltrate these demonstrations and turn them violent.


http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/19/paris-gaza-police.html

"...Paris police on Saturday besieged protesters who violated a citywide ban on pro-Palestine demonstrations. Organizers of the protests said the police crackdown was aimed at further disenfranchizing the nation’s often politically and socially marginalized Arab and Muslim communities. “The police attacked us,” Amelle El Amraoui, 28, said from the streets of the protest. Despite the ban, imposed the day before, Amraoui defiantly joined the demonstration that sought to decry the ongoing invasion of the Gaza Strip, which has left at least 333 Palestinians dead over 12 days. Five Israelis have also been killed in the conflict.

At least 35 of the roughly 5,000 protesters who flouted Paris’s freshly imposed protest ban were arrested, organizers said. Numerous others were injured, they said, when police charged them with teargas and Tasers. Amraoui said that one protester had been stabbed by a gang of political opponents.

(...)

Local French media reported that protesters had thrown projectiles at police and characterized Saturday’s events as race riots, but protesters charge that the police were attempting to provoke violence to legitimize their restriction of French Arabs’ freedom of expression. “The demonstration started out peacefully, and then the police started throwing gas bombs,” said Houria Bouteldja, one of the organizers and a spokeswoman for the anti-racist political movement Les Indigenes de la Republique — The Indigenous of the Republic. “They are trying to invent a reason to continue to ban the demonstration,” said Mehdi Meftah, another protest organizer.

Netherlands based European Decolonial Network started a petition on Saturday to preserve the protesters' right to demonstrate. The petition has garnered nearly 200 signatures from across Europe, North Africa and the United States. For many at the protest, images of the police cracking down on French Arabs defying the law to decry what they say is imperialism harkened back to the Parisian police’s infamous crackdown on demonstrations for Algerian independence in the 1960s. On Oct. 17, 1961, during one of those protests, police shot what some historians say was well over 200 protesters and buried them in mass graves.

“Right now everyone has a smartphone. Everyone has camera. They can't use the same violence — they can't throw us in the Seine," Meftah said. "The similarity here is that the Arab, the Muslim and the black is going to public and expressing solidarity with a people under siege — and there's a continuation of colonial policies of repression.”

“Of course we can’t compare the scale of the violence,” said Aya Ramadan, another protester. “But it's evident that today when we see a mass of Arabs and black people coming together over the Palestinian cause, it's an image that's reminiscent of the images in the '60s. It's relatively the same thing: Arabs supporting an independence movement abroad. And they face violent repression.” ..."

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
30. Immigration can be a problem
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:59 PM
Jul 2014

Palestine is facing major problems with its minorities and integrating them into Arab society

Behind the Aegis

(53,823 posts)
39. The last one, before the ban...
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:53 AM
Jul 2014

...they managed to get Jews barricaded into a synagogue which they tried to burn down. Thankfully, it didn't happen, but when the ban was announced, Jews were blamed for it because "we had insiders causing the conflict (meaning the protests)." There was even an OP stating as much!

ismnotwasm

(41,916 posts)
44. This literally makes me sick to my stomach.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:24 AM
Jul 2014

The potential for historical mimicking Is here, and very real, and it terrifies me.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
45. omg!
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:34 AM
Jul 2014

This shit needs to stop, but I doubt it ever will. Humans are very good at killing each other over religion. Every religion calls itself a religion of peace and yet almost all have past and present violent periods. Muslims, Jews, Christians....all three use violence and oppression in the name of god while proclaiming they are religions of love and peace.

As time goes on I believe more and more of John Lennon's words in Imagine.

"Imagine"

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

- John Lennon

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