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National Guard troops in TX: When Perry gives the orders to shoot, will they all obey? (Original Post) AlinPA Jul 2014 OP
No order to shoot immigrants at the Texas /Mexico border will be given. argyl Jul 2014 #1
If they shoot unarmed civilians at anyone's order, they will be prosecuted. Aristus Jul 2014 #2
Kent State, May 4, 1970. Hekate Jul 2014 #19
Good point. Aristus Jul 2014 #20
The GOP base would love him for it. AlinPA Jul 2014 #21
Exactly. Hell Hath No Fury Jul 2014 #22
Seen any groups screaming at buses of immigrant kids in Texas? argyl Jul 2014 #23
Query: Why, then, is Perry calling out the National Guard and militarizing the situation? Hekate Jul 2014 #24
Perry is stupid. He's using a solution for which there's no problem argyl Jul 2014 #26
Well, he'd be incredibly stupid if he did that. MineralMan Jul 2014 #3
From what I've seen and heard of Perry he does not seem very stable. AlinPA Jul 2014 #8
Well, if the "order to shoot" kentauros Jul 2014 #4
I agree that "orders to shoot" would be unbelievably stupid, but read this quote... bluesbassman Jul 2014 #5
I assume the NG will have guns. AlinPA Jul 2014 #6
Kinda goes with the job. bluesbassman Jul 2014 #7
While Governors have the power to call up the MineralMan Jul 2014 #9
"Border Security is already handled by a federal agency." Throd Jul 2014 #10
Perhaps. I do see that the MineralMan Jul 2014 #11
I hope you're right MM... bluesbassman Jul 2014 #15
Often, when the NG is in a support role, they aren't even armed, MineralMan Jul 2014 #17
I read through the NG rules of engagement and use of force, especially Level 6 (use of AlinPA Jul 2014 #18
Perry doesn't understand jurisdiction. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2014 #16
How is he paying for this? procon Jul 2014 #12
He will be running for President and the GOP base will love this use of force. He does not care AlinPA Jul 2014 #13
Seems to fit the Rapeuglican Mindset Perfectly AndyTiedye Jul 2014 #14
There was a Carlos Mencia joke about this years ago agentS Jul 2014 #25
Perry just wants to say he has commander - in -chief cred. Historic NY Jul 2014 #27
Do you even have to ask? mwrguy Jul 2014 #28

argyl

(3,064 posts)
1. No order to shoot immigrants at the Texas /Mexico border will be given.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 02:19 PM
Jul 2014

There's your answer to your ridiculous question.

Aristus

(66,093 posts)
2. If they shoot unarmed civilians at anyone's order, they will be prosecuted.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 02:21 PM
Jul 2014

Following an illegal or unlawful order is actionable.

Aristus

(66,093 posts)
20. Good point.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 04:37 PM
Jul 2014

However, I can see that it might be relatively easy to start a movement to hold Perry accountable for any killings that happen.

 

Hell Hath No Fury

(16,327 posts)
22. Exactly.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 04:50 PM
Jul 2014

Perry may never give a shoot order, but some NG yahoo may take it upon themselves. And the Texas NG has got to have some crazy-ass people in its ranks.

argyl

(3,064 posts)
23. Seen any groups screaming at buses of immigrant kids in Texas?
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 05:13 PM
Jul 2014

It's happened elsewhere but not in the Lower Rio Grande valley.

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
24. Query: Why, then, is Perry calling out the National Guard and militarizing the situation?
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:04 PM
Jul 2014

He's stupid and it's dangerous.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
3. Well, he'd be incredibly stupid if he did that.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 02:21 PM
Jul 2014

It's not going to happen. He's only stupid, but not incredibly stupid.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
4. Well, if the "order to shoot"
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 02:49 PM
Jul 2014

is the one to protect everyone from the racist militias that want to patrol, too, then I'm all for that.

bluesbassman

(19,310 posts)
5. I agree that "orders to shoot" would be unbelievably stupid, but read this quote...
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:08 PM
Jul 2014
Still, the precise role the National Guard troops will play on the border is unclear. Previously, Governor Perry has said he wanted any National Guard deployment to use helicopters and have “arrest powers to support Border Patrol operations.”


If the NG is deployed in an "enforcement" capacity, it's not too far of a stretch to assume that they may be put into a situation where shots are fired.

bluesbassman

(19,310 posts)
7. Kinda goes with the job.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:16 PM
Jul 2014

However, their mission could be simply as support and not engaged in initial contact operations. I hope that's the case.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
9. While Governors have the power to call up the
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:25 PM
Jul 2014

National Guard in their states for some purposes, I think probably guarding the U.S. border is not one of those purposes. That's strictly a federal government responsibility, and Governor Perry is likely to get some very detailed instructions should he decide to use the NG for that purpose.

Border Security is already handled by a federal agency.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
11. Perhaps. I do see that the
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:28 PM
Jul 2014

Border Security Bill passed in 2013 does allow Governors to call up the National Guard to "assist" the Border Patrol logistically. I don't think shooting border crossers is part of that assistance.

bluesbassman

(19,310 posts)
15. I hope you're right MM...
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:43 PM
Jul 2014

But put a bunch of armed people in a volatile situation that is not very familiar to them and bad things can happen. I doubt shooting students was part of the NG's mission at Kent State either.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
17. Often, when the NG is in a support role, they aren't even armed,
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:51 PM
Jul 2014

or if they are, they're not issued ammunition unless there is a reason for it. Kent State is part of the reason for that, along with the Posse Comitatus concept.

The National Guard has its own set of rules of engagement that the Governor cannot alter.

AlinPA

(15,071 posts)
18. I read through the NG rules of engagement and use of force, especially Level 6 (use of
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 04:21 PM
Jul 2014

deadly force) and there is a high bar to get over before they can start shooting, but to me it's like "stand your ground". With Perry (IMO he is unstable) giving orders to deploy the NG, we have a situation that could turn very ugly.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
16. Perry doesn't understand jurisdiction.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:45 PM
Jul 2014

Border security is a federal responsibility and not a state one.

But lots of right-wing idiots, many of whom supposedly graduated from law school, don't understand that some things are state controlled and others Federal controlled. Of course, we have constant court cases where a state doesn't want to follow a Federal mandate (Affordable Care Act, for instance).

procon

(15,805 posts)
12. How is he paying for this?
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:31 PM
Jul 2014
"The National Guard deployment will cost up to $12 million per month, $9.8 million for personnel and vehicle costs and another $2.4 million estimated to cover the cost of helicopters."


And what is the PR value he thinks will benefit him with the globally condemned optics of heavily armed military troops facing down defenseless and frightened women and children?

I just don't grasp the logic here... even for the Republican mindset.

AlinPA

(15,071 posts)
13. He will be running for President and the GOP base will love this use of force. He does not care
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:36 PM
Jul 2014

about "globally condemned optics" and neither does the GOP base.

AndyTiedye

(23,500 posts)
14. Seems to fit the Rapeuglican Mindset Perfectly
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:41 PM
Jul 2014
heavily armed military troops facing down defenseless and frightened women and children?

agentS

(1,325 posts)
25. There was a Carlos Mencia joke about this years ago
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:46 PM
Jul 2014

Back when the national guard was sent to the border in AZ I think (2005?). Anyway in his skit he's making fun of the aspects of border crossing, the camera pans to a guy in fatigues drinking a beer or soda. Guy asks "who/what is he?" Mencia says "oh he's the national guard. He doesn't do anything".

I doubt there will be shot kids by the National Guard. But there might be shootouts between the Guard and gun smugglers (who buy guns from gun shops and illegal sellers in the US---NRA we're LOOKING AT YOU FOR THIS!!!).

mwrguy

(3,245 posts)
28. Do you even have to ask?
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:08 AM
Jul 2014

There's a reason they volunteered for infantry instead of joining the peace corps.

They probably can't wait to bayonet some refugee children.

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