re: George Carlin and his use of the c-bomb (NSFW video)

[geek tragedy]

Here's an example of his totally-not-misogynistic use of the c-bomb.

Regarding women who suffer from eating disorders, he said:

Rich c@nt, don't want to eat? Fuck her. Fuck her. Don't eat! I give a shit.

Video at bottom of post (warning: contains profane and misogynistic language)

Carlin was a brilliant comedian and provided a lot of insight. He could also be a misogynistic, wantonly cruel asshole who punched down.

(note: a cousin of mine almost died from an eating disorder, so no I've never forgotten Carlin's repulsive comments)

Citing George Carlin on that word actually proves the opposite point that words' apologists try to make.

[Uncle Joe]

1. Karen Carpenter didn't want to eat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Carpenter


Carpenter suffered from anorexia nervosa, an eating disorder which was little known at the time. She died at age 32 from heart failure caused by complications related to her illness.[2] Carpenter's death led to increased visibility and awareness of eating disorders.[3]

(snip)

When Carpenter entered Downey High School, she joined the school band. The conductor (who had previously taught her older brother) gave her the glockenspiel, an instrument she disliked. After admiring the performance of her friend, Frankie Chavez, she asked if she could play the drums instead. She and her brother made their first recordings in 1965 and 1966. The following year she began dieting. Under a doctor's guidance she went on the Stillman Diet. She rigorously ate lean foods, drank eight glasses of water a day, and avoided fatty foods. She was 5' 4" (163 cm) in height and before dieting weighed 145 pounds (66 kg; 10 st 5 lb) and afterwards weighed 120 pounds (54 kg; 8 st 8 lb) until 1973, when the Carpenters' career reached its peak. By September 1975, her weight was 91 pounds (41 kg; 6 st 7 lb).[7]

(snip)

On February 4, 1983, less than a month before her 33rd birthday, Carpenter suffered heart failure at her parents' home in Downey, California. She was taken to Downey Community Hospital, where she was pronounced dead 20 minutes later. The Los Angeles coroner gave the cause of death as "heartbeat irregularities brought on by chemical imbalances associated with anorexia nervosa."[21] Under the anatomical summary, the first item was heart failure, with anorexia as second. The third finding was cachexia, which is extremely low weight and weakness and general body decline associated with chronic disease. Her divorce was scheduled to have been finalized that day. The autopsy stated that Carpenter's death was the result of emetine cardiotoxicity due to anorexia nervosa, revealing that she had poisoned herself with ipecac syrup, an emetic often used to induce vomiting in cases of overdosing or poisoning.[21] Carpenter's use of ipecac syrup was later disputed by Agnes and Richard, who both stated that they never found empty vials of ipecac in her apartment and have denied that there was any concrete evidence that she had been vomiting.[22] Richard has also expressed that he believes Karen was not willing to ingest ipecac syrup because of the potential damage that both the syrup and excessive vomiting would do to her vocal cords and that she relied on laxatives alone to maintain her low body weight.

Thanks for the thread, geek tragedy.

[Warpy]

2. It's flung with abandon on a lot of international sites

Other English speaking countries don't consider it to have the baggage our word police do, although when it's used in combination with other words as an insult, it can pack a wallop. Otherwise, it's just thrown off as a joke.

Carlin is a product of his time the way everybody else is. His later routines contained so much wisdom that slightly younger efforts like this one only cause me to wince a little.

It's a lot less obscene than paying women so little they can't feed their kids after a man has abandoned them.

[seabeyond]

5. yes warpy, addressing racist, sexist and homophobia is all about the word police.

it cannot be that there is actually a legitimate issue using these slurs on women. that us "owning" them has done nothing addressing these use of the words. you know, a bunch of punks call a 12 yr old girl a slut, though she never kissed a boy to the point of her death.

i get that all us strong, tough, awesomely empowered women are not going to be effected in the same manner of that 12 yr old girl. that does not mean that these words do not have a power. that does not mean it is a matter of "word police" used in the same manner limbaugh sighs about the "political correctness" coming from the left.

these words are used toward women for a reason. and blacks. and gays. it is effective and i refuse to shrug.

It's a lot less obscene than paying women so little they can't feed their kids after a man has abandoned them.

ya. lets address THAT, too.

[geek tragedy]

35. Word police? Ugh.

Dropping the c-bomb will get you fired in or at least reprimanded in every EEOC-compliant workplace in the country.

Also, this is 1992, when he was 55. Not his early stuff.

The point isn't to kick Carlin, the point is yes he was a product of his time, and blatant misogyny was acceptable back then.

[joshcryer]

3. In 1992 this would've been funny.

Not 5 years later not 10 years later not 15 years later.

Carlin, being a comedian, would've recognized that.

This, btw, also helps instruct our politics, with, for example, the things Bill Clinton did with super majorities in Congress advocating for it (DADT, DOMA). It just goes to show how much the country has progressed in 15 short years (well, 18, but what's the difference). The internet is a wonderful thing.

And if you debate me just go back and watch some of Eddie Murphy's standup, some really insanely abyssal crap in there (granted that was somewhat pre-90s and he apologized by the 90s, but he was a black man, Carlin could pull that stuff for a few years later).

[seabeyond]

4. yes. he is a white man lecturing from his perspective. i like the man. i bought a book for son

for christmas this year. when son opened it, i told him. he is funny. and he is a white man with comedy coming from privilege and entitlement. he is far from perfect.

i didnt give it a listen. i never find that word amusing. even carlin.

[joshcryer]

6. I don't think he would've ever told that joke later on.

I think he was pandering or pretty much speaking to the times. Carlin was in tune with American culture and politics, and what sold well then, he ran with. That being said you have to go back really far to find Carlin being a jerk.

A more modern comedian (Louie C. K.) can pull it off in the same way Carlin did back then:

If you find that offensive you are probably not the culture he's speaking to, as you probably weren't the culture Carlin was speaking to in 1992 when he made that joke. Watch the full Louie C. K. bit to see where I'm coming from. It's extremely vulgar, but very witty.

The punchline is literally "Don't hide behind "the N word" like a faggot, just say 'nigger' you stupid cunt." But it winds up being amazingly brilliant in its execution. He explains that "faggot" has nothing to do with homosexuality. He explains he never used "cunt" to refer to women in any way, and that he feels it doesn't even coherently refer to a female body part he admires. Then, finally, he points out that white people love hiding behind "the N word" when they're too weaselly to say the word itself because by saying "the N word" the word is being conveyed, but the speaker isn't owning it, from his perspective.

[seabeyond]

7. both my boys and i have talked about this man. my youngest and i really enjoyed him

on parks and recreation. he was telling me how he really is not sexist. i had heard he was. i listened to him a couple times on my car comedy channel. he would start out using language that i would think he was gonna be, but he always pulled it out that it did not end up being seixst.

well... my oldest came back from university and the other night he was talking various comedians. we talked about him. and this is what we concluded. he does it in a manner that what he is really showing us is how incredibly he gets this.

ya. i could handle this one. i have since listened to a lot of his shows. there is vulgar. but the man gets the "isms"

[joshcryer]

8. So I think we can sorta forgive previous generations for laughing.

But we can still say 1992 Carlin was a jerk and wasn't funny and was pandering to his audience at the time.

Maybe in the future, say, 30 years from now, Louie will be considered a jerk. I hope not because he's sincere and self-depreciating and not really being a hot head. But still, if we do, we should understand and appreciate the time his comedy now existed in.

Glad you weren't offended by my response.

[seabeyond]

9. i do not think so. because like he said, it is the usage. and why he pulls it off,

he is clearly teaching, literally in his piece teaching the usage and softening the offensive of the word.

there are comedians today that use the language and are flat out sexist or whatever. as carlin was. whether he meant it or not, believed it or not, the language certainly was.

i was talking elsewhere, today. you can hear racism, sexism, homophobia. it can be heard.

i think that is the difference. he wasnt being.

[seabeyond]

10. i also listened to a carlin, ... using the words. maybe he was older, i do not know. and though

he was using the words, in this act he was showing the harm they do.

he isnt perfect. and maybe that was younger years and the lazy joke worked for him, i do not know. i get that is not all the man was though, in his act

[joshcryer]

12. Don't get me wrong, 1992 Carlin is offensive.

I'm just saying, the crowd laughed because, at least for them, it wasn't. I was only a kid then and my parents wouldn't even let me hear that, and they would've found it extremely offensive.

I don't think we should fault him for that old "lazy joke" as you say. I think it was him getting the laugh for the time he was speaking in. In that vein I think his "banned words" bit still stands true, though I do not think we should be using such language on DU (and to be clear, I drop the F bomb here more than any other poster).

[seabeyond]

16. you are acting like it was just the time. there are plenty of comedians use that lazy manner for a

joke. i love comedy. listen to it on our long trips. i am telling you, the repetitiveness of sexist joke, after sexist joke, after lazy fukin ass sexist joke gets really damn old.

i am gonna mutilate this. but someone made a point not long ago. these sexist jokes, that everyone is suppose to lighten up about. it is seeing me thru mans eyes in order to see the humor. cause seeing it thru my eyes, a woman, there really is nothing funny about it.

you know. how did you know she lied. cause she is a woman.

[joshcryer]

17. For Carlin it was.

The OP is trying to bash Carlin but his comedy "evolved with the times." Fault him then, don't slight him later, it's not right, especially when we have modern comedians getting away with the same language which you even admit Louie C. K. does.

[seabeyond]

19. and if people didnt hold him up as a god telling us we should be allowed to use all these words

without repercussion, then i think there is a responsibility to point out, carlin was far from perfect. i think we can easily recognize the good in carlin and also recognize the sexist.

[joshcryer]

22. But Louie did use those words without reprecussions.

So was he not at least to an extent correct? It's all in the delivery. Carlin was right and the OP is trying to slight him for his crappy jokes that sucked.

I already said he was pandering and I admit his joke was sexist, but I think it was meant to sell to a specific audience. Eddie Murphy did the same sort of stuff. His AIDs and gay jokes were the lowest of the low. But they sold extremely well to the audiences at the time.

[seabeyond]

26. no. you are not getting it, i do not think. carlin did not get that they hurt. he can say

they are just words, but that is not true. he missed the understanding part of it. i remember thinking that when he did that.

easy for a white man to say.

now, listen to ck about being a white man. he would be the first to say... easy for a white man to say.

also in his piece he did not try to dismiss how a gay would feel being called a faggot. he did not try to dismiss how and why women are bothered with cunt.

he acknowledged right up front and all the way thru

carlin merely said we should not be bothered. just words. big difference

murphy. homophobic, sexist piece of shit.

[joshcryer]

28. I'm not saying Carlin wasn't hurtful.

I'm saying that the joke appealed to his audience at the time. That's all. I think if Carlin sat down and thought about it, he would've seen it as hurtful. In fact, we know that his language evolved over time and he stopped doing those kinds of jokes. This is a very difficult think for an older comedian to do btw (see Seinfelds Kramer, Michael Richards, racist to the core).

Carlin was always evolving and stopped using hurtful language the more he did stand up. I think the OP is wrong in that Carlin supported sexist language. I don't think Carlin ever used 'cunt' in later acts, to be honest. I think Louie was just good at making a good joke about it (and as you say, it was a teaching moment for Louie).

I think if you watch "Talking Funny" you'll see that no comedian on that panel thinks anything is off limits. Anything. Period. It doesn't matter how sick, how vulgar, how sexist, how homophobic it is. As long as the delivery and the joke is good. And that's Carlin's point about the "banned words." Carlin never was able to pull off a Louie C. K. telling of those words, and in fact his joke in retrospect is highly offensive and demeaning, but Louie C. K. did it later, and it works. You even say it was a good teaching moment joke. So OK, we now can say that those words aren't off limits. We can say them. They can be funny, in a given context.

For Carlin that context was a sexist misogynist early 1990s atmosphere. And I don't fault him for that, even if I think the joke sucked. Carlin's later works were brilliant and he clearly moved away from that attitude.

[seabeyond]

30. this is getting really hard.

others can clarify easier.

"Talking Funny" you'll see that no comedian on that panel thinks anything is off limits. Anything. Period. It doesn't matter how sick, how vulgar, how sexist, how homophobic it is. As long as the delivery and the joke is good.

i disagree. as long as the racism, sexism or homophobia is DEfanged, as ck did. i do not care how well the delivery is, if it is presented in the hurtful form that it is, it will NOT be funny. not to the people that have had the shit in their face forever. it takes more than delivery to be able to pull it off without being the "ism" that is presented.

someone made a point about rape jokes. joking about rape toward a victim is never ok. it is when the joke is at the rapist, that makes the rape joke ok, or something like.

i do not buy that all is ok. dice clay

[joshcryer]

32. Defanging can be delivery.

Louie C. K.'s early rape jokes are not defanged at all. At all. They're quite fucked up.

[seabeyond]

38. ok. then maybe that is why i heard ck was a sexist. cause earlier his rape jokes were fucked up

maybe he had learned himself. i know ck said something really stupid about tosh. it was fucked up. tosh's rape joke that was really not a joke at all. then i believe ck came back and revised, with thought.

that would be the point.

everything is not on the table. if a comedian wants a career. they may want that. but, they do not get that.

nor does anyone in life.

but that would be the point that is being made about carlin. it is not the end of the world if carlin is called out for some things.

[Uncle Joe]

18. The biggest difference I see, is that Carlin was doing this 9 years after Karen Carpenter's death

brought the issue of Anorexia front and center and Carlin's misogynistic blindspot could only serve to divide the people that if anything need and needed to be united to confront the powerful forces that Carlin preached against.

Now I admire much of Carlin's work, I agree with the OP that he was a brilliant comic and was boldly outspoken in regards to corporate domination/ownership of the government and in turn the people.

But as with the OP's demonstration I believe Carlin fell into the same trap, that he argued so passionately for the American People not to, that being owned by the powers that be and if social cruelty does anything it makes being owned all the easier, for it divides the people.

kpete has an excellent thread regarding the different types of cruelty turning the American People against themselves.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025145735

We practice fiscal cruelty and call it an economy. We practice legal cruelty and call it justice

There is a new kind of systematized cruelty in our daily lives, in how we relate to each other, and in how we treat our fellow citizens, and, therefore, there is a new kind of systematized cruelty in our politics as well. It is not as though there haven't been times in the history of our country in which cruelty was practiced for political or pecuniary advantage. It is not as though there haven't been times in our history when the circumstances in people's lives did not conspire cruelly against them, or when the various systems that influenced those lives did not conspire in their collective cruelty against their seeking any succor or relief. There was slavery, and the cruel war that ended it. There was the organized cruelty that followed Reconstruction, and the modern, grinding cruelty of the Industrial Revolution and the Gilded Age that followed it. There were two World Wars, the first one featuring a new era in mechanized slaughter and the second featuring a new era in industrialized genocide. There was the Great Depression. There was McCarthyism, and the cruelty that was practiced in Southeast Asia that ended up partly dehumanizingthe entire country. There always has been the cruelty of poverty and disease.

But there is something different abroad in the politics now, perhaps because we are in the middle of an era of scarcity and because we have invested ourselves in a timid culture of austerity and doubt. The system seems too full now of opportunities to grind and to bully. We have politicians, most of whom will never have to work another day in their lives, making the argument seriously that there is no role in self-government for the protection and welfare of the political commonwealth as that term applies to the poorest among us. We have politicians, most of whom have gilt-edged health care plans, making the argument seriously that an insurance-friendly system of health-care reform is in some way bad for the people whom it is helping the most, and we have politicians seriously arguing that those without health-care somehow are more free than the people who have turned to their government, their self-government, for help in this area. In the wake of a horrific outbreak of violence in a Connecticut elementary school, we have enacted gun laws now that make it easier to shoot our fellow citizens and not harder to do so. Our police forces equip themselves with weapons of war and then go out and look for wars to fight. We are cheap. We are suspicious. We will shoot first, and we will do it with hearts grown cold and, yes, cruel.

We cheer for cruelty and say that we are asking for personal responsibility among those people who are not us, because the people who are not us do not deserve the same benefits of the political commonwealth that we have. In our politics, we have become masters of camouflage. We practice fiscal cruelty and call it an economy. We practice legal cruelty and call it justice. We practice environmental cruelty and call it opportunity. We practice vicarious cruelty and call it entertainment. We practice rhetorical cruelty and call it debate. We set the best instincts of ourselves in conflict with each other until they tear each other to ribbons, and until they are no longer our best instincts but something dark and bitter and corroborate with itself. And then it fights all the institutions that our best instincts once supported, all the elements of the political commonwealth that we once thought permanent, all the arguments that we once thought settled -- until there is a terrible kind of moral self-destruction that touches those institutions and leaves them soft and fragile and, eventually, evanescent. We do all these things, cruelty running through them like hot blood, and we call it our politics.

(snip)

[joshcryer]

20. And unfortunately a room full of people cracked up.

I am not arguing he was in the right making the joke. I already said he was pandering to some audience he felt would eat it up. And they did. That's the unfortunate observation here, not that Carlin used a "banned word" and it was in extremely poor taste.

[Uncle Joe]

23. When I heard those people cracking up, I couldn't help but think of that Gladiator scene

where the crowds cheered when people died, despite Russell Crowe's character angrily trying to reach some aspect of their humanity.

The Emperor Commodus loved the Gladiator fights and deaths because it distracted the people from realizing that they were being owned.

[joshcryer]

25. I think that's apt.

I think it was really sad. But if you want disgraceful, go listen to some of Eddie Murphy's anti-gay AIDs jokes. That stuff is utterly brutal, and it was only a few years before this Carlin skit.

[Uncle Joe]

27. I hear you, joshcryer, there is a lot of bread and circuses out there. I believe we the people

need to be more aware of this.

[joshcryer]

29. I'm just glad our culture has changed so much for the better.

In a few decades. It's been quite refreshing when I think about it. I grew up in a time when gays and AIDS was vilified, and now dozens of states support gay marriage, marijuana is legalized in two states, stuff is getting better.

The time I grew up in was truly the worst of modern developed nations, even if we struggle now, it was really bad back then.

[seabeyond]

21. Carlin fell into the same trap, that he argued so passionately for the American People not to

exactly. i can remember watching one of his spiels and thought EXACTLY what you are saying. and though it was years later i gave that book to my son, cause i do like carlin, son is bright enough to recognize, but still... i made clear carlin was not perfect in all things. was still white privileged male.

so i had remembered enough to say that before son read the book, so he would recognize.

[nomorenomore08]

11. I wouldn't put Louie quite on Carlin's level, but he is brilliant in his own way.

And some of his material on gender and race is genuinely gutsy.

[joshcryer]

14. Carlin did politics later on and was brilliant.

I think Louie is way beyond Carlin at this point in his career and if Louie ever does politics it will be absolutely brilliant and our kids will think Carlin was a chump.

[nomorenomore08]

24. Carlin's later material (90's and after) actually was some of his best.

Though I also greatly enjoyed his HBO special from '82 despite not having been born at the time it first aired.

[KitSileya]

36. Considering that Louis CK advocates for sexual assault on his tv show,

he isn't the comedian I would go to for an example of a feminist-friendly comedian. he has stated that this season of Louie is very much based on his personal experiences, which leads me to ask, how many unfortunate women has he assaulted, and tried to rape?

[seabeyond]

39. really? what is this about?

cause this is happening in my house now and we have been having a running conversation between my boys. my youngest wants me to watch the series with him. i am personally tired of the shit in our shows and refuse to watch. i told him i was wary, we could try, if there was shit, it would go back to the store.

[KitSileya]

41. In the latest eps of the season,

Louie tries to rape and ends up assaulting his ex-girlfriend. Here are some links to recaps:
http://www.shakesville.com/2014/06/on-louie-again.html

And for the season finale, which depicts the abusive relationship:

http://www.shakesville.com/2014/06/on-louie-once-more.html

As Melissa McEwan says, "I am continually amazed by people's willing refusal to hear what Louis CK is telling them." What he is telling them, is that he has no problems supporting a culture that says a man can rape by mistake, that a man can magically know that a woman wants to have sex with him even if she says 4-5 times that she doesn't, that a woman, once she has had sex with a guy, has consented to sex with him in perpetuity, that rape can be accidental. It is such an icky set of episodes that it should teach everyone that Louis CK is NOT an ally, that he is not "ground-breaking" when it comes to feminist issues, that he is not "brilliant" when it comes to rape culture, that he is, in short, a rape culture enabler. In addition, he has said that this season is very personal to him, and a lot of it is based on personal experience, so my question remains - how many women has he sexually assaulted, and tried to rape?

[seabeyond]

43. very very interesting. having teenage sons, one approaching 20,

we are discussing all this. all of the gender crap. but, we all like comedy and my youngest is a natural. he plays it always. and in allowing that, his oopses and all, we have conversations about the responsibility of the comic. it is not a no holds bar for the goal of humor. takes a hell of a lot more than that, and a little brain and heart power.

thanks. this is interesting. i will share with the two boys, let them digest and see what comes from it. but... it is clear that watching his show will only piss me off and not be a positive i look for in sharing entertainment with the boys. cause i NEVER stay quiet. so just do not put the shit in front of my face.

thanks.

[joshcryer]

45. This is a clear call back to last season where he was raped.

And it is clearly a call back to this season where he rejected a "fat girl" because he wasn't "in to her" but she really liked him. He finally looked in the mirror and realized he was scum for doing that. In this case Pamela is his counterpart, being disgusted by Louie but knowing he cares for her. This person's interpretation is completely off the hook.

[joshcryer]

44. That was a callback to last season where his character was raped.

The scene you allude to is a desperate man going after a woman he's in love with and going way over the line. Of course, for C. K. he doesn't want people liking his character, he wants his character to be loathsome as he considers himself. It's possible he's done that on some occasions in the past, but as far as I know he's not raped anyone. He's just a piece of shit person and he'd be the first to admit it.

[Bonobo]

13. I've never heard a coherent response to why it is okay to call someone a "dick" if

the C-word is out of bounds.

Can you give me the best argument on that or would you say that both are out -f bounds?

[joshcryer]

15. The word 'cunt' is diminutive.

But I posted a video by Louie who argues otherwise, he knows the joke delivery is that, in fact, it is diminutive but by arguing the converse he empowers the word. 'Dick' can be and is usually referring to someone who is a jerk which implies to an extent someone who is empowered in whatever way.

Of course, this applies to American English conventions. "Cunt" is not a diminutive word in Australia or the UK. It is literally equivalent to "dick" in those countries especially as it concerns Australia.

[Lancero]

31. Richard.

Dick is a commonly used alternative to it.

Rather specific case, and frankly I've no idea just how Dick came to be accepted as a shorted version of Richard.

[seabeyond]

40. i have three dicks in my family. for a lifetime i have called my father and brother.... dick.

true that

[geek tragedy]

33. Same reason "cracker" isn't as bad as the n-word

How often do you see a woman called a "dick" or a "penis" as an insult?

"Dick" is pretty much synonymous with "asshole" or "jerk" whereas the c-bomb is both more gender-laden and hateful.

[el_bryanto]

34. I think we make an exception and allow George Carlin, if he posts here

to use the C-Word. That's only fair. He's brilliant. But those of us who aren't George Carlin should continue not using it.

Bryant

[B Calm]

37. I miss George Carlin. . .

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. George, you are looking pretty damn skinny there, your own self.