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Pisces

(5,592 posts)
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:08 PM Jun 2014

Jindal, Tea Party and many on DU agree to trash Common Core curriculum. Jindal has signed

an executive order not to implement Common Core in Louisiana. I guess this is where the hard left and hard
right meet. Common Core had support on both sides when when it was implemented, however, now with all of
the negative spin out there it is being trashed and torn apart. So I guess they go back to the shitty curriculum they
had before.

Like many on this board. Doing nothing is better than trying a new path. I don't get why so many are against upgrading or
changing our flawed and broken system. Changes can be made if something isn't working. But doing nothing is insane.
This, it appears is what the so many on this board want to do (Nothing) Well you can now move to
Louisiana for your educational needs.

http://gawker.com/bobby-jindal-defies-legislature-issues-order-to-drop-c-1592749648

37 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Jindal, Tea Party and many on DU agree to trash Common Core curriculum. Jindal has signed (Original Post) Pisces Jun 2014 OP
This is gonna need a lot of this. hobbit709 Jun 2014 #1
People can disagree and try to change what they don't like in Common Core but it is similar to Pisces Jun 2014 #4
You want us to support an idea for education reform. Put someone in office who will liberal_at_heart Jun 2014 #9
We have always been tested. This is how we know where children stand. I would love to be like Pisces Jun 2014 #14
oh, you're damn right I'm making it about one person, my son and nothing you say will liberal_at_heart Jun 2014 #18
I understand that, but what about my kids? In the US it is every man for himself. Your son in your Pisces Jun 2014 #23
If you're kids can handle an advanced curriculum then they should take advanced classes. liberal_at_heart Jun 2014 #24
Nothing that comes from Duncan should be trusted. MattBaggins Jun 2014 #28
I always have a chuckle when someone takes a standard news item and uses it to bash DU. FSogol Jun 2014 #2
Some reasons here, maybe. elleng Jun 2014 #3
These are anecdotal. There is nothing measurable that shows Common Core is terrible. Is it manna Pisces Jun 2014 #5
Here is why Jindal and idiot teapartiers would be against it randys1 Jun 2014 #7
Probably, but why would democrats be against it? There is nothing to measure its success or failure Pisces Jun 2014 #8
I dont know why either...i honest to god believe the right does want a dumb America randys1 Jun 2014 #12
My guess is a lot of people confuse it with No Child Left Behind, Race to the Top, Charter Schools, Chathamization Jun 2014 #26
The standards are fine. How it's implemented is problematic. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #29
Its more complex, and maybe troublesome, than healthcare, elleng Jun 2014 #10
I don't disagree. I agree with your choice of Linda Darling-Hammond, and I also agree that teachers Pisces Jun 2014 #17
Funding for public education has been problematic everywhere, elleng Jun 2014 #20
Doing something simply for the sake of doing something is never an answer. Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2014 #11
I hear on DU all the time well I don't like it but I will hold my nose and accept it. liberal_at_heart Jun 2014 #16
Even a broken clock can be wrong twice a day. I hate Common Core. liberal_at_heart Jun 2014 #6
Booby and Co. may be looking for a way to teach creationism KamaAina Jun 2014 #13
Here is a pretty good outline of the pros and cons: femmocrat Jun 2014 #15
Thank you, a very good link to the pros and cons. I think this is a very sticky topic, but I know Pisces Jun 2014 #21
It is a horrible curriculum MattBaggins Jun 2014 #30
I looked over that site and it seems mainly in use by charter schools. femmocrat Jun 2014 #35
But is an increased focus on testing part of Common Core? Chathamization Jun 2014 #25
Nobody will be lowering standards. They will keep teaching their curriculum and their students will Pisces Jun 2014 #34
Yeah, there seems to be a belief that this is Federal, mandatory, and about increased testing when Chathamization Jun 2014 #36
Similar to ACA thinking. There has been a lot of misinformation and distrust because of Arne Duncan Pisces Jun 2014 #37
Here, part of the problem is nadinbrzezinski Jun 2014 #19
Excellent analysis. Pisces Jun 2014 #22
The new system is more flawed than the old one MattBaggins Jun 2014 #27
The problem with Common Core is that it is a shortcut. Savannahmann Jun 2014 #31
I liked your post a lot and your enthusiasm for science and math! fujiyama Jun 2014 #32
Forgive me if I misstated it. Savannahmann Jun 2014 #33

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
4. People can disagree and try to change what they don't like in Common Core but it is similar to
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:18 PM
Jun 2014

those that want to cancel The Affordable Care Act. This is a good start to our broken system. Now lets tweak it. Why
would we rather repeal and have the same crap we had before? The one that has us ranked 26 out of 34 countries in math.

We have an abysmal system, so we should attack all ideas and changes and stick with our old system and utopian ideas
about eliminating poverty.

I wonder how much of our site and thinking has been changed by the nonstop GOP media blitz and bots that we have
on the air and internet. Many of those disguised as Democratic view points.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
9. You want us to support an idea for education reform. Put someone in office who will
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:32 PM
Jun 2014

put children first and not test scores. Put someone in office who will not appoint someone like Arne Duncan who loves corporations and hates teachers. Put someone in office who will make changes like Sweden and other countries have done where children are treated as individuals and not robots.

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
14. We have always been tested. This is how we know where children stand. I would love to be like
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:40 PM
Jun 2014

Sweden, but we know which children would benefit and which would lose out. The same as today. You are making this
about 1 person, instead of the bigger picture. This is what has happened to education. Arne Duncan and Michelle Rhee
have become the villains. Anything with their name attatched becomes garbage. Sorta sound like anything with Obama's
name to the right wing. It is true whether you want to admit it or not. Nothing is trusted that comes from Arne Duncan
by this board. It could be the greatest idea ever and many on this board with automatically be against it.

We are as guilty as the right wing against Obama. Think Obamacare. Maybe Common Core will work and maybe it
won't, but the premise is not outrageous. The outline of the standards seem reasonable. We are falling further and further
behind as we continue to argue semantics. We need try new things.

My own children have been taught Core Knowledge curriculum which is not exact but close to common core standards. It is
a wonderful curriculum. I don't understand why we wouldn't want all children to experience it.



Pisces

(5,592 posts)
23. I understand that, but what about my kids? In the US it is every man for himself. Your son in your
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 06:21 PM
Jun 2014

mind supersedes the poor in baltimore etc. So do my own. This is the kind of thinking that has placed us so far
behind. In other countries it is about the needs of the many and there are national standards. I understand that not
every child will benefit, but the majority will. That is if it is given a chance to work.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
24. If you're kids can handle an advanced curriculum then they should take advanced classes.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 06:25 PM
Jun 2014

My daughter took several advanced classes. But my son should not be forced to take advanced curriculum that he cannot handle.

FSogol

(45,356 posts)
2. I always have a chuckle when someone takes a standard news item and uses it to bash DU.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jun 2014

Who here approves of common core?



BTW, Fuck Rand Paul.

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
5. These are anecdotal. There is nothing measurable that shows Common Core is terrible. Is it manna
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:22 PM
Jun 2014

from heaven. No, but nothing is going to be perfect. We need to have changes in our system and no one was willing to do
it. Now when it has been done, everyone is at the ready to tear it down. Just like Healthcare reform. Our own side
can be just as damaging.

Too bad Obama doesn't own a magic wand or a sceptor to fix all the problems with the wave of his hand.

randys1

(16,286 posts)
7. Here is why Jindal and idiot teapartiers would be against it
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:28 PM
Jun 2014
The standards are:

Research- and evidence-based
Clear, understandable, and consistent
Aligned with college and career expectations
Based on rigorous content and application of knowledge through higher-order thinking skills
Built upon the strengths and lessons of current state standards
Informed by other top performing countries in order to prepare all students for success in our global economy and society


that first one, evidence-based, is what got them I think...

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
8. Probably, but why would democrats be against it? There is nothing to measure its success or failure
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:30 PM
Jun 2014

yet. The standards you just posted sound reasonable to me. Yet many would prefer to argue, fight and do nothing.

randys1

(16,286 posts)
12. I dont know why either...i honest to god believe the right does want a dumb America
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:34 PM
Jun 2014

They look down on intellect and education...

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
26. My guess is a lot of people confuse it with No Child Left Behind, Race to the Top, Charter Schools,
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 08:53 PM
Jun 2014

etc. Just like some people lumped the bailout and the stimulus together, or believe that Citizens United was about all corporate political donations.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
29. The standards are fine. How it's implemented is problematic.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 09:06 PM
Jun 2014

IF Common Core curricula were produced entirely by actual teachers with experience as teachers, and passed around between districts, that would be great. If, on the other hand, districts are purchasing pre-made curricula produced by RW 'educational corporations' that just happen to have lessons that teach the standards while also reinforcing things like supply side economics, you've got a problem.

elleng

(130,127 posts)
10. Its more complex, and maybe troublesome, than healthcare,
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:33 PM
Jun 2014

as education MUST be done/implemented locally, and there will be problems and confusion, everywhere.

EVERYTHING is anecdotal, that's the 'beauty' of public education.

There has not, generally, been adequate time for states and administrators and schools and teachers to establish mechanisms to implement. In the interview in link I posted, teacher seemed confused between WHAT was being taught and HOW it was being taught, and that canNOT be.

Too bad President Obama didn't select an Education Secretary who was more able do know and do the right thing, like Linda Darling-Hammond.

http://dianeravitch.net/2013/10/24/linda-darling-hammond-on-the-common-core-standards/

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
17. I don't disagree. I agree with your choice of Linda Darling-Hammond, and I also agree that teachers
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:47 PM
Jun 2014

must be taught how to implement the standards and new curriculum for it to be successful. I am frustrated at how
many would prefer to do nothing when we are failing miserably. And yes, sometimes action is better than inaction.
We can not continue to throw good money after bad.

The other problem is how schools get their funding. The wealthy areas get more because of home taxes in their community.
Everything in life is not fair and poor areas should get more tax dollars. We need to bolster the area that are lacking.

elleng

(130,127 posts)
20. Funding for public education has been problematic everywhere,
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:52 PM
Jun 2014

for a long time, and is surely among the top 1-3 big issues. Lots of states have litigated this, and it becomes a serious political matter. There IS no EQUAL without adequate funding, period.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
11. Doing something simply for the sake of doing something is never an answer.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:34 PM
Jun 2014

"It's NEW!" isn't a gauge of effectiveness.

Moreover, we're talking about hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars being spent annually at a time when the public's patience with the education system is at a nadir. The last thing public education needs is to spend billions of dollars over many years only to learn it was an investment in a worse result.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
16. I hear on DU all the time well I don't like it but I will hold my nose and accept it.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:45 PM
Jun 2014

The destruction of public education system is not something I am willing to hold my nose and accept. My autistic son is being treated like herded cattle, and I will not stand for it. My son came home from school crying almost everyday in 6th grade because he was being forced to take a Common Core 6th grade math class when he had a 4th grade math comprehension. He actually asked me if he could skip school because he didn't want to go to math class. Common Core made him feel stupid when he is the complete opposite of stupid. He is bright, curious, resilient, resourceful, and creative. He has a passion for science despite having a C+ average in his general education science class. He admires Einstein because Einstein didn't do very well in school either and still turned out to be a genius. I will not hold my nose and just accept Common Core.

femmocrat

(28,394 posts)
15. Here is a pretty good outline of the pros and cons:
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:42 PM
Jun 2014
http://www.parents4publicschools.org/Documents/Common_core_chart_final.pdf

My opinion, for what it's worth:

I think the conservatives resent any imposition of standards from the state, believing that education is a local domain.

Teachers basically hate more standardized testing and more cookie-cutter approaches that diminish their abilities to reach individual students. Even though my subject area was not covered by CC, it was overruled by the emphasis on math and reading to the exclusion of our own subject-area standards. Teachers also pretty much dislike having students' test scores comprising a large portion of their evaluation scores.

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
21. Thank you, a very good link to the pros and cons. I think this is a very sticky topic, but I know
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:59 PM
Jun 2014

change is hard. We need to start somewhere. I don't think teachers evaluations should be held to their scores until
training and curriculum has been taught properly. Maybe 2 to 3 yrs. I don't think that Common Core is cookie cutter.
Here is the link to Common Core Curriculum. It gives many examples. My own children are being taught Core Knowledge.
It is a great curriculum.

http://www.coreknowledge.org/CCSS

This curriculum covers the standards and more. We are not teaching to the test because the kids are learning what is needed daily. They are given the test cold.

MattBaggins

(7,894 posts)
30. It is a horrible curriculum
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 09:10 PM
Jun 2014

and if a child has difficulty in an area it is a big so sad too bad and fuck you. There is no time or deviation from the method allowed to help those children.

femmocrat

(28,394 posts)
35. I looked over that site and it seems mainly in use by charter schools.
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 11:30 AM
Jun 2014

The ones listed in our state were all charters. There were no public school districts listed. I am not sure, but in the past charters have not been held to the same rigorous testing criteria as public schools. This has been a bone of contention with a lot of public school teachers.

However, I do not know if that has changed under Common Core. One of our well-informed DUers will probably know, though!

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
25. But is an increased focus on testing part of Common Core?
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 08:45 PM
Jun 2014

I've heard a lot of people talk about that, but haven't seen much evidence. Granted, it may be part of how individual states that choose to follow the new standards implement things, but how to implement the standards (and even if the states want to implement them or not) are up to the states.

Some of those other cons are odd too: "some states that had higher standards will actually have to accept lower standards." Why will they have to accept lower standard? Common Core is optional. They can choose to lower their standards to fit common core, choose to keep their standards, or (to my understanding) keep what they want of each and discard the rest.

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
34. Nobody will be lowering standards. They will keep teaching their curriculum and their students will
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 10:37 AM
Jun 2014

test well. I think this is what some people think will happen. There are radical people that think this is the government
take over of education just like the government takeover of healthcare. The language has become hyperbolic and
virtually the same as the arguments against ACA.

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
36. Yeah, there seems to be a belief that this is Federal, mandatory, and about increased testing when
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 11:30 AM
Jun 2014

it’s something that’s optional, created by the National Governors Association for states that want to have consistent standards with other states, and about having shared standards (from my understanding). A lot of the criticism I’ve read about it demonstrate complete ignorance as to what it actually is.

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
37. Similar to ACA thinking. There has been a lot of misinformation and distrust because of Arne Duncan
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 03:47 PM
Jun 2014

involvement.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
31. The problem with Common Core is that it is a shortcut.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 09:24 PM
Jun 2014

We count up to reach a dollar, dollars to reach five, five to reach ten, tens to twenty etc. The problem is, that we understand why the math works. We know how to add, subtract, multiply, divide, and we understand fractions. We know that 1/8th is smaller than 1/4. We know that .5 is larger than .25 and so on. We learned math the old way, first the explanations. If I have four apples, and you have six apples, how many do we have between us? We learned how to apply the math, and as time went by we learned the shortcuts. Finding sets of ten in a long string of numbers to add up as an example.

The problem with Common Core is that it skips the why and goes straight to the short cuts. Math becomes a mystery, instead of a scientific fact. If we continue down the road of Common Core, I can see people making gestures as if to some far off deity as they count up to the answer, or the question, or whatever.

Math is a wonderful thing. I admit, I was a bad math student as a child. I barely passed it. Then I started as a young man, to understand why math worked. I was fortunate to have some friends who could teach me math that has helped me tremendously. But that teaching was lain on a foundation that even I as a bad student had. Now, I can do Algebra, even some of the basics of the more advanced math. Don't get me wrong, when I read a scientific paper on astronomy or physics, I have to take their word for the math because I can't do it. Symbolic math is so far beyond me as to be another language.

But I understand that it works. I understand why it works. I understand about the fusion in the Sun, the slamming of Hydrogen to make Helium, and helium to other elements. None of this is a mystery to me, because I understand that the math works, even if I couldn't do the calculations myself.

What we are doing with Common Core is taking away that foundation, and making all the kids nothing more than people qualified to work a cash register. We are denying them the understanding of the amazing and mind boggling field of math. Because no one is going to go from the basics of common core to a university math program. The kids can count change, but they can't work the math. Because they don't have the foundation they need for the more advanced math.

Look at the Pythagorean theory. You are on one side of a river. You want to know how far across it is to the other side of the river. Before you can build a bridge, you must know this so you can design the bridge. By using one of the oldest math formulas out there, you can find out with nothing more than a compass.

I met a girl earlier this year, and she was frustratingly working out the volumes of objects for her science class. She thought it was all useless. I laughed and told her how important it was. I used the Apollo program to demonstrate how vitally important that volumes were. How much fuel do we need to achieve orbit? We need X amount, and that will fit into a tank this large. When you add weight, you have to increase the amount of fuel, which means even bigger tanks. You just can't cobble the thing together trying different sizes of tanks, until you come across the right one by accident. You have to start out knowing how big the tanks have to be.

Without that simple math, the math she's doing right now in science class, the journey to the moon would have been impossible.

Then I hit her with the speed of light. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. A SECOND. In one second, light has traveled 186,000 miles. The light that brightens our day from that big old sun in the sky has traveled for eight minutes to get here. If the sun exploded right this second, we wouldn't know a thing about it for eight minutes. When we see a star go Nova in the sky, that light has been traveling for thousands, tens of thousands, sometimes millions of years to get here. If the light from our sun has traveled 93 million miles in eight minutes, imagine how far the light from something a thousand light years has traveled.

You should have seen her face light up as I explained all of this to her. Math matters, because without it we can't really understand the universe we live in, or how amazing this world really is. Only through math can we truly understand the astonishing variety of our planet, and the amazing universe we live in.

Eight planets, 168 moons orbiting the main planets. All in orbit around our sun. The sun is in orbit around the center of the Galaxy, all of those forces perfectly balanced. The motion of earth just right to keep from getting further away or closer to the sun. The motion of the moon just right to keep it above us for the next five million years or so. 168 moons orbiting the sun while at the same time orbiting the planets they are bound to by the predictable force of gravity.

All those miracles of our universe are lost without an understanding of math. All of those amazing things become whatever events without thinking for a moment about how perfectly balanced it all has to be.

This is why I am opposed to Common Core, because it ignores the foundation that we must have to really understand our world. It teaches the shortcuts, without teaching the why. Without the why, there is no way to explain to the kids the wonders of the universe, because the math is awesome when you see how amazing it really is.

fujiyama

(15,185 posts)
32. I liked your post a lot and your enthusiasm for science and math!
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 09:57 PM
Jun 2014

But one correction - the sun is the center of the solar system, not the entire galaxy. The galaxy contains many millions of stars and solar systems.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
33. Forgive me if I misstated it.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 10:22 PM
Jun 2014

I thought I said that the sun was in orbit around the center of the galaxy, which would include the solar system. If I did state it wrong I apologize. It's late, and I've had a long day.

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