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The "rules" on mass shootings: (Original Post) ehrnst Jun 2014 OP
So simple...so well put. vi5 Jun 2014 #1
thank you heaven05 Jun 2014 #2
Sums Up Right Wing Duplicity Quite Succinctly cantbeserious Jun 2014 #3
Yes, he nailed it. Enthusiast Jun 2014 #4
America - a wonderful place to commit a crime liberal N proud Jun 2014 #5
It's so lucky white people don't have a culture of violence nxylas Jun 2014 #6
Spot on brush Jun 2014 #7
All Mass Shooters Are Mentally Ill By Definition - But That Is No Excuse for Avoiding Justice stuartsdesk1 Jun 2014 #8
You have your opinion HereSince1628 Jun 2014 #11
Thanks for a Thoughtful Reply."Sociopath" or "Anti-Social Personality Disorder", It's the Same. stuartsdesk1 Jun 2014 #12
Hey SCOTUS smallcat88 Jun 2014 #9
why is this true? WHY? KittyWampus Jun 2014 #10

nxylas

(6,440 posts)
6. It's so lucky white people don't have a culture of violence
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 09:01 AM
Jun 2014

I hear some of that hippity-hoppity music glorifies guns as if waving an assault rifle around was some sort of constitutional right.

(Just in case: )

brush

(53,764 posts)
7. Spot on
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 09:08 AM
Jun 2014

And the thing of it is, in both the Santa Barbara and Las Vegas massacres, the shooter/s were on police radar. In both cases police were in contact with them before the shootings and "found them to be no threat."

BULLSHIT!

Let's get real, and I know I'll get flack on this, but cops need to start profiling these "angry white males with gun fetishes" because they are proving to be a fucking dangerous threat to society.

Stop with the pervasive racism of concentrating on the "usual suspects — black or brown people driving or walking even", and start realizing that that innocent-seeming guy (because he looks like you) might have an arsenal in his closet that he's getting ready to use. That was the case with both the Santa Barbara and Las Vegas shooters but cops in both cases didn't perceive a threat.

For God's sake, how many school and workplace killings by angry white males with gun fetishes is it going to take before they get it? We've got domestic terrorism going on that's, quite frankly, not being recognized. There seems to be a great reluctance to even acknowledge it — OKC, Columbine, Aurora, Tucson, Sandy Hook, Vegas, Santa Barbara, and on and on and on. It's right in our faces.

 

stuartsdesk1

(85 posts)
8. All Mass Shooters Are Mentally Ill By Definition - But That Is No Excuse for Avoiding Justice
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 09:49 AM
Jun 2014

People who shoot other people who they hardly know or under circumstances
where they themselves are not seriously threatened are, in my opinion

MENTALLY ILL.

By definition, mass shooters are sociopaths and that is a serious mental illness.

However, it is not an excuse to avoid justice.

Only those who are truly INSANE - uncomprehending of reality, unable to control their anti-social actions
on a continuing (not temporary) basis, unable to plan or to carry out a plan, unable to foresee future
consequences for present actions, continually and uncontrollably violent - only those individuals
have an excuse to avoid regular justice and to go directly into an institution for the criminally insane.

Given evidence of planning and patient preparation, malice aforethought, an understanding
of consequences of violence for both perpetrator and victims, a flagrant disregard for pain inflicted on others -
such criminal sociopaths must face normal justice regardless of how "insane" their actions appear to be
compared to the general population.

"Temporary Insanity" must also be disallowed as a reason to avoid normal justice.
It is just another expression for "Rage". It is no excuse.




HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
11. You have your opinion
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 10:52 AM
Jun 2014

I agree that insanity defenses must meet rigorous criteria...attorneys are expected to make attempts to provide a best defense. Insanity is an option that gets explored, and tried. It doesn't always work, but it's popular, maybe because beliefs such as yours are popular.

There is a logic to this... the problems of incomprehensible crimes can be explained by a lack of comprehension and proper cognition on the part of the perp. This seems to solve the discomfort we get from not having answers, it makes the perps seem like something other than the rest of us and the people we usually hang with.

But these explanations are often a murky business clouded by faulty 'common knowledge'. "Sociopathy" isn't a recognized psychiatric term so such claims are opinion/street smarts masquerading as a recognized diagnosis. It's a common mistake of street, the term you may want is anti-social personality disorder.

I understand that you have your opinion and you don't need to change it. I am not intending to challenge yours.

But other people also have opinions on this, and those others include organizations such as people who work at the FBI and HSD. They suggest that there are other reasons for multiple murders than just mental disorder...including political/terrorist, criminal (including personal or gang related vengefullness) motivations to mass killings. The Mother Jones databases on mass shooting since 1983 suggests that only 37% of mass-shooters were diagnosed with a mental disorder or had unambiguous symptoms prior to the event. The recent suicides plus mass-murders very probably have a higher association with mental illness, because between 80% and 90% of suicides are associated with mental disorders, particularly depression (but that must be seen against the epidemiology that shows the majority of the 20+ million people who have some form of depression each year don't commit suicide, murders of any kind, or violent attacks).

It's important to realize that many roads can lead to the same place. Common outcomes, such as murderous behavior can be the result of different paths...even if they are part of that 37% associated with mental illness.

Among the recent mass shootings anti-social personality hasn't been the only attributed mental illness...schizophrenia gets a lot of media play, but anxiety, autism, bipolar disorder, depression, ptsd (and variants such as c-ptsd), obsessive compulsive disorder have all been postulated in the press. Among personality disorders, borderline, schizotypal and schizoid have all been suggested in addition to anti-social behavior. If we simply move into the realm of murders of less than 5 people, alcohol and drug abuse have significant association with murder.

Of course these numbers may or may not matter to anyone depending upon their interest in the issue of gun deaths/mass murders.

If a persons' goal is to invoke a quick explanation that provides an answer that ends uncertainty, then putting the murderers into any real, or imagined, clear or fuzzy category that doesn't include the people who look just like us with whom we associate will work to make us feel arguably distant and thereby safer from the risk.

But if the goal is to really understand the motivations and cognition of murderers then greater care is required, because sloppy thinking/street diagnoses control for nothing and introduce many confounding factors that make more enigmatic an already puzzling picture.

 

stuartsdesk1

(85 posts)
12. Thanks for a Thoughtful Reply."Sociopath" or "Anti-Social Personality Disorder", It's the Same.
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 11:38 AM
Jun 2014

You seem to be quite knowledgeable about psychological disorders so I will take your word
that "Sociopath" is not an officially sanctioned psychological or psychiatric
term. You have explained that the correct term is: "Anti-Social Personality Disorder"

Please read ""Anti-Social Personality Disorder" wherever I have said "Sociopath".

I understand that you and others (e.g. the FBI) believe that there are "other reasons" for mass murder such as
political/terrorist, criminal (including personal or gang related vengefullness) motivations to mass killings."

What I am saying is that in most cases mass killers are not totally without reason or a degree of self control.
They simply don't have a normal, acceptable regard for the well being of others or the pain or suffering they may cause to others.

They put their own personal satisfaction, revenge, fantasy, political or religious ideology AHEAD of their regard for
other people's well being.

In other words, a gross violation of the golden rule. Mass shooters themselves don't usually desire to be the victim
of a mass shooting - although in many cases they do commit suicide AFTER committing a mass shooting
to avoid the consequences of their actions.

These people may have "Anti-Social Personality Disorder" but the are NOT INSANE. They understand what they have done is mean, nasty, inflicts great pain on others and is not condoned by society. They have no justification to plead the insanity defense and should be treated according to normal rules of justice.

Otherwise, we will come to a point where all murderers, rapists, torturers, violent bullies, armed robbers and so forth will be able to plead mental illness as an excuse to avoid normal justice.

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