How about 'Alternate Believers' not 'Non-Believers'?

[Marthe48]

Louis Gohmert is violating the 1st Amendment and his spew is being discussed on The Ed Show. One thing I wonder- non-Christians are referred to as non-believers. Wouldn't it be less inflammatory to refer to non-Christians as 'Alternate Believers? Is that description already used by enlightened people? As far as religion goes, everybody has a belief system, whether it is that there is nothing or something beyond the grave. And maybe someday having a personal religious belief will mean an adherence to a moral code that includes respect for all people, something that Gohmert ceertainly lacks.

[valerief]

1. Everybody doesn't have a belief system, and there are many other people than

believers.

[Marthe48]

2. If you believe that this life is it and so live

that's a belief system. If you believe you will be rewarded or punished and live your life accordingly, that's a belief system. And if you wonder and seek, that is a belief system. I read advice columns and see a lot of problems because family members have different beliefs. The one I read recently was from a Pagan who was married to a Christian. Some of the advice offered was to attend the spouse's traditional church on special occasions and invite the spouse to some of the alternate celebrations. I go to non-religious meetings at the local Universal Unitarian Church and you are invited to the church services even if you are an atheist. I went to a funeral service there and it was one of the most moving services I've been too. I have a sister-in-law who believes in a God and feels she is closer to her faith if she goes barefoot.

[valerief]

3. I don't "believe" it. I just don't know of anything otherwise. "Believe" means to assign truth

to something without evidence. Not believing isn't the same as believing. It's a pet peeve of mine when people conflate not believing with a belief system.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. I think you're confusing the word 'believe' with the word 'faith'.

They're not the same, not according to the dictionary:

Religious belief is a subset of the word "believe" but that is not the entire umbrella of the meaning of the word.

A belief system is the set of concepts or understandings one holds about the world at large. We all have belief systems, that's not the same thing as religious belief.

be·lieve
biˈlēv/
verb
verb: believe; 3rd person present: believes; past tense: believed; past participle: believed; gerund or present participle: believing

1.
accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
"the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
synonyms: be convinced by, trust, have confidence in, consider honest, consider truthful More
"I don't believe you"
regard as true, accept, be convinced by, give credence to, credit, trust, put confidence in;
informalswallow, buy, go for
"do you believe that story?"
accept the statement of (someone) as true.
"he didn't believe her or didn't want to know"
have faith, especially religious faith.
"there are those on the fringes of the Church who do not really believe"
feel sure that (someone) is capable of a particular action.
"I wouldn't have believed it of Lois—what an extraordinary woman!"
2.
hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.
"I believe we've already met"
synonyms: think, be of the opinion that, have an idea that, imagine, suspect, suppose, assume, presume, take it, conjecture, surmise, conclude, deduce, understand, be given to understand, gather, fancy, guess, dare say; More
informalreckon, figure;
archaicween
"I believe he worked for you"
antonyms: doubt

[valerief]

23. I was responding to the OP who was addressing religionish titles, so the 'believing' stuff

was related to religion/faith, not philosophy or cognition.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I gotcha.

Like I said, nothing bugs me more than the argument that "Atheism is just another form of religion". Sort of like suggesting that "I don't eat ice cream" is a flavor of ice cream.

[bettyellen]

5. nope. don't believe this, or that I have a "belief system". I have my own moral code, that has

nothing to do with religion at all. Pls stop trying to stuff atheists in that box.

[SidDithers]

4. No...nt

Sid

[Warpy]

6. no thank you, in spades

I'm a non believer. Period. Full stop.

However, in talking about a pluralistic group of believers, "non Christians" might be more appropriate for the non Christians in the group.

As for Screwy Louie, just roll your eyes and move on. The man never makes a damned lick of sense, which is why his district loves him so good.

[Marthe48]

7. Going back to Gohmert

He was using the term non-believer as a reference to anybody who doesn't believe as he does. I'd personally like to deflate his rhetoric by using a term which is less judgmental than 'non-believer.'

[Uncle Joe]

8. From Plato's Apology

However, in Apology, Plato relates that:[6]

"This man, on one hand, believes that he knows something, while not knowing (anything). On the other hand, I — equally ignorant — do not believe (that I know anything)."

The impreciseness of the paraphrase of this as I know that I know nothing stems from the fact that the author is not saying that he does not know anything but means instead that one cannot know anything with absolute certainty but can feel confident about certain things.[7]

Thanks for the thread, Marthe.

[Daemonaquila]

9. Nope. That creates a hierarchy.

Non-christians are non-christians, and referring to them as "non-believers" is horse-crap. It only points out the speaker's ignorance and bigotry. There is nothing "alternative" about it. Only atheists are non-believers. And they'd rightly take offense at the "alternative" term as well.

[pipi_k]

10. I may be wrong, but...

I'm kind of thinking that not too many Atheists are so sensitive about this issue that they need to be labelled as Alternate Believers.

I'm not.

Call me a non-believer. Atheist. Spawn of Satan. Even a heathen (my Fundy Christian sis and her child molesting husband used to call me that years ago).

I

don't

care

[GoCubsGo]

29. This agnostic whole-heartedly agrees with that.

In fact, I love being called a "heathen". And, as far as being a "Non-Believer" as defined by Gohmert and his ilk, you goddamn right I'm a non-believer. And, I wear that moniker as a badge of honor. It means I'm not like him, and that's all that matters to me.

[3catwoman3]

11. A member of a social group I participate in...

and enjoy very much was once commenting on the similarities and differences among group members. She observed, I think everyone here is Christian. I replied, "I guess I would be the sole exception to that." She responded, "Oh. Atheist?" Not wanting to get into it, I simply said, "No." I found it quite fascinating that this was the only alternative that came to mind.

[Warren DeMontague]

12. Pretty much everyone doesn't believe in SOMETHING.

I suspect Louie Gohmert is an "unbeliever" if the "God" in question is Zeus or Quetzlcoatl.

Of course, there are those of us who believe in No Gods as opposed to not believing in most of them except one. I prefer Atheist as the catchall term for those who don't believe in Gods or supernatural godlike entities.

But non-believer sounds more apropos to me than alternate believer, if the question is religion, because many of us are simply NOT religious. It doesn't mean we don't "believe" in anything, but we don't believe in religious or supernatural explanations for phenomena, at least (in my case) in the total absence of evidence (extraordinary claims, and all that)

"alternate believer" sounds like you're lumping skeptics and secularists in with people who collect crystals and do ear candling.

[valerief]

13. Atheists don't "believe" in no gods. Atheist do not believe in gods.

There's a difference.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Thank you for correcting me on something I don't need correcting on.

It's semantics.

A lack of religious belief is not a functional equivalent to a religious belief, I agree. (and nothing pisses me off more than the crap about "Atheism is another religion too zomg o no!&quot

But I don't think you're reading what I wrote correctly. I "believe" in things like the relationship between matter and energy as expressed by E=MC2. As such, I "believe" in scientific truth as revealed through experiment and observation. I "believe" that that is the way to learn objective facts about the objective universe we live in.

Furthermore, I "believe" that I am sitting here typing on a computer instead of being a head in a jar, dreaming all this.

To state that Atheists do not harbor, generally, religious or supernatural beliefs by definition, is correct in my estimation. Semantically, however, saying that means not believing in anything, is an incorrect use of the word.

IMHO, meaning my opinion i.e. my belief.

ETA: Also, if you're talking about the categorization of "non-believers", I'm fine with coming up with better or alternate characterizations, but I don't think "alternate believers" is any sort of improvement.

[valerief]

22. You're right. My bad.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. No worries.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. I think you're confused - 'non-Christians' means anyone who isn't a Christian, not 'non-believers'

Jews, Muslims etc. are non-Christians, and so are atheists, agnostics etc. But Jews and Muslims are not 'non-believers'.

'Alternate believers' would mean 'the (only) other set of believers' (like "please use the alternate entrance&quot . If you want to use that to mean 'non-Christians', then you're dividing the world into "all Christians" and "everyone else", and implying everyone else is this type of believer. This also implies there is a 'normal' belief; if you've already established you're first talking about Christians, this might work, but not if you haven't. It would be simpler, and less likely to confuse people, if you say 'non-Christian' when you mean 'anyone who isn't a Christian'; and 'non-believer' when you mean 'anyone who doesn't hold religious beliefs'.

A 'belief system' has to be a system, ie more than one 'belief', and which are connected. 'Belief' is also a loaded word in English; I may believe that chocolate ice cream tastes better than strawberry, but that 'belief' does not make me a 'believer', in most people's understanding (and having a variety of opinions on food taste does not make it a 'system', either).

[Marthe48]

19. Gohmert said 'non-believers'

while he was defiling the 1st Amenedment. I am falling into the trap of making a sound bite instead of a good argument. 'Alternate believers' came to mind because his comment was obviously meant to belittle the 99% of people who do believe differently than he does. And even if he is being quoted on MSNBC, aren't there people out there who will feel like he is belittling their beliefs, and maybe get off-center justifying to themselves what they believe. I thought Rev. Lynn made some good comments pointing out that that what a person privately believes shouldn't be the reason for making public policy.

I don't want to stereotype or lump people together. But I would like a succinct and positive descriptive of the 2000 + religions practiced in the US that aren't Christian. Even though I am faithful, not religious Christian, I don't like it when somebody like Gohmert stomps all over people that are non-Gohmerters. Maybe he can call himself God Gohmert.

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. 'non-Christian' seems to be the term (and it was Barry Lynn who said 'non-believers')

We would say, for instance, "non-Muslims are not allowed into Mecca". If you mean only the people who do have a religion, but not Christianity, then 'non-Christian believers'. Just "alternative believers" ("alternate believers" could also mean "1 in 2 believers", like "we meet on alternate Mondays&quot implies there is one thing to be an alternative to.

There's video of the exchange I presume you are talking about; it's Barry Lynn, the (excellent) minister who heads Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, who said "For the 2,000 different religions that exist in this country, the 25 million non-believers. I’ve never been offended, I’ve never been ashamed to share my belief." He's saying there are 2000 different religions and 25 million non-believers.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/11/louie-gohmert-tells-congress-the-good-news-that-non-christians-are-going-to-hell/

[el_bryanto]

30. I think the full context of the latest comments make it clear that even a fair amount of

Christians aren't really Christians in Gohmerts mind - in order to be a real true Christian you have to believe that all who do not accept Christ as their personal savior are damned to eternal torture.

Bryant

[RainDog]

17. Fuck Gohmert's Christo-fascism

It's none of his fucking business what anyone believes.

He's one of those incredibly stupid fundamentalists who gets voted into office by other incredibly stupid fundamentalists who would, if they had their way, revert the U.S. to another dark age in human history.

I don't have to state a belief about anything related to religion in this nation and there is no religious test for office.

Too bad there's no test for stupid because Gohmert would've been gone long ago.

[LAGC]

31. You. Win. The. Thread.

[KittyWampus]

18. I like your suggestion very much & will use it.

[Marthe48]

20. Thanks!

If I think of something more acceptable, I'll post it.

[LeftyMom]

21. Are you an "alternate believer" in Zeus?

[sakabatou]

26. No

But Louis calling non-Christians non-believers is just plain BS.

[Antler]

28. There is this push to make it seem like 50/50 odds...

Maybe God on his cloud exists... Just as likely not...

Bull...

Odds are wildly and hugely skewed against...