Bodies of 800 babies, long-dead, found in septic tank at former Irish home for unwed mothers

[StevieM]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/03/bodies-of-800-babies-long-dead-found-in-septic-tank-at-former-irish-home-for-unwed-mothers/

This is mortifying. It says a lot about the mentality of the Baby Scoop Era.

[Arugula Latte]

1. History can add 800 more to the long list of those who died at the hands of the Catholic Church.

[JustAnotherGen]

2. I'm horrified

[PNW_Dem]

65. Sinead O'Connor was correct

[Ghost Dog]

127. Yes.

[hollysmom]

201. Judged way too soon. n/t

[joeybee12]

3. This is horrific...

I hope they are now at rest...short, horrible lives...and it didn't need to happen.

[Jefferson23]

4. Frightening how a twisted sense of religion teaches the mind to see these children as less than

human. I wonder who were the people that did adopt some of these children, where are they
now?

[StevieM]

5. The mothers were seen as less than human too. They were "sinners." And most of them were

heartbroken to lose their children to forced adoptions.

Many of the kids, like the son of Philomena Lee, were sent to America.

[Jefferson23]

9. Oh absolutely, that is where it began. Horrific story. The children who were sent to America, was

there any documentation to support or even hints they were place in loving homes?

[StevieM]

121. I think it varied from family to family

Some of the adoptive parents were good, others were not so good. But in most cases the mothers never wanted to give up their children. They were essentially prisoners in the Magdalene Laundries and were not given a choice. After their babies were stolen they had to stay there and work off their "debt." Many of the adoptive parents simply chose not to recognize what they didn't want to admit--that their children were coming from moms who didn't want to lose them.

Did you see the movie Philomena? It should be coming out on DVD soon enough. It tells one of these stories.

[Jefferson23]

133. Criminal, really. No, I have not seen the film and was not aware of the back story..thank you for

the information. Excellent thread.

[whathehell]

160. ???

"Many of the adoptive parents simply chose not to recognize what they didn't want to admit--that their children were coming from moms who didn't want to lose them".


How do you know the adoptive parents even KNEW that their children were "coming from

moms who didn't want to lose them"?..Do you know what they were told?

[StevieM]

176. There is a long history of willful ignorance that has accompanied forced adoptions.

It was a don't ask, don't tell mindset. The Baby Scoop Era was a brutal time for women who were labeled as whores. In many places, like Ireland, being sent to a maternity home was the norm in these cases. To some extent, that was how it worked here in the U.S. Nobody wanted to acknowledge the pain it could cause to the mother who lost her child. There was this notion that the woman or girl would simply give up her child, move on with her life and forget. In the minds of some parents...her virginity was restored.

And an infertile couple finally got the child they so desperately wanted for so long. That created a lot of incentive to cultivate a system of willful ignorance in which the forced nature of the adoption, and the birth mother's suffering, were not recognized.

[whathehell]

182. You forget that many, if not most, in that time, were not "forced", it

was simply the custom, often a preferred option.

Yes, of course the Magdalene Laundries were hideous, but the fact is,

anywhere in Western Society you looked, there simply weren't many

"single moms" who kept their babies back then -- It wasn't NEARLY as accepted

as it is now, and, in any case, you simply CANNOT place that kind of "speculative blame"

on the adoptive parents in this case -- You have no idea what they knew.

I was a teenager during the Sixties and knew three girls who got pregnant outside of

marriage -- Only one wanted to keep her baby and did so.

[StevieM]

195. That's the point. Our goal was a 100% relinquishment rate. It was the expected norm.

We gave no thought to what it would do to the young mothers. We didn't recognize how it was likely to haunt them for the rest of their lives. We simply chose to believe that most of them would move on and forget--and that's what the women and girls were told would happen, they would forget.

I seriously doubt that only one of those three girls wanted to keep her own child. But maybe only one of them had the strength to stand up to the intense coercion to relinquish. I am sure that the other two think of their lost children often, to this very day. I hope and pray that they are in reunions.

As for the adoptive parents, they chose to ignore the reality of how the system worked. They chose not to see that coerced adoptions were the rule of the day. They chose to believe that the young women would move on and forget. And they chose not to give any thought as to where the babies came from. Their child's past was seen as irrelevant, especially to the child. A baby was seen as "a blank slate."

But you are right....that is the way things were back then. "It was simply the custom." But it was a ruthless custom, and one that was rooted in misogyny.

[CTyankee]

218. Philomena was a real eye opener. I was expecting something lighter but boy, was I wrong!

This was a rough story...I wasn't prepared for Philomena's suffering in childbirth where they denied her any painkillers because of her sin, and then taking her baby from her to be adopted by an affluent family while condemning her to her servitude in a laundry...and making her work to restitute the nuns for their "help" while she was poor and pregnant...this wasn't that long ago...

[RainDog]

6. The Church: the original slut shamers

Looks like they had the same attitude toward the children of those girls - who may have been raped - or not. No matter. Either way - this is the disgusting legacy of religious hatred toward females.

[Lex]

7. Religion shames sex

and it is poisonous and reprehensible.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

26. and it ascribes carnality to women.

Men get a free pass--they'd be pure and spiritual if it weren't for those damned demon women. Women are dirty, evil, conniving, etc. etc. go read MRA sites for more adjectives.

[hollysmom]

202. My Mom, born during the depression told me

that after my sister was born,she was not supposed to leave the house until she went to the church and threw herself on the alter to beg forgiveness for having sex. She was married, she refused to do that, so being married to my father who was excommunicated as a child with his family because his mother would not tithe, when her family was going hungry, well, we were raised pretty much outside the church - catholic, but not Catholic - not attending church.
And yes, my father's mother went into the house after the night she was married, and took the bed sheets and hung them outside to show that my mother was a virgin when she got married.

[StevieM]

203. My God...that is all so sick. And still common around the world. And many people would love to

bring those days back, right here in the United States.

I am glad that Holly has a mother who has risen above that kind of primitive thinking.

Is your paternal grandmother still alive? Did she ever evolve beyond those values?

[hollysmom]

232. my paternal grandmother died in the 50's.

these are old stories. I am old. I used to sit on the stairs while my mother ironed and listen to her talk about her life. I was 7 and it was like story time, and mom shared her beer with me. Dad would get her a container (carton) of beer - they didn't sell bottles in our town then, it was draft. after dinner always at 5 PM, dad would go out for beers with the guys, my older sister would watch television (yes, we were the first people I knew with Television) and I would listen to Mom's stories.

ETA - and years later after I already was living with a boyfriend, Mom told me she had to cut her self to bleed on that sheet, ha ha ha .

ETA ETA - Holly is my dog, no kids. And I am an Atheist, my sister and brother are agnostics.

[rickford66]

8. Shouldn't this be in the religious room discussion group?

[RainDog]

10. No. This is about the treatment of women and children

by a religious organization, not a discussion of the religious beliefs of the organization - apart from the slut shaming that is part of those beliefs that resulted in the abuse of girls and, apparently their children.

This is news, not religious discussion.

[theHandpuppet]

32. Thank you.

I agree. Especially when that organization is spending millions of dollars right here in this country to lobby against contraception and abortion.

[SammyWinstonJack]

85. +1.

[get the red out]

198. Absolutely

This is very political, we need to see the potential future by looking at the past caused by "conservative" policies.

[intaglio]

12. It is

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218133277

You can offer constructive comments in either thread

[Go Vols]

219. or not so constructive

:/

1. At least we can rest easy that they weren't aborted

Far better that they die after birth than beforehand.

[StevieM]

13. No, it shouldn't be. Because this is not just about religion or the Catholic Church.

It is about the Baby Scoop Era, and the systematic dehumanization of woman, girls and their children by a cold-blooded society. The Baby Scoop Era did not just take place among Irish Catholics. It took place throughout the English speaking world, where the writings of so-called social workers were widely accepted. These societies--including the United States--believed all children born out of wedlock should be given up for adoption. And they were often willing to go to whatever means necessary to make that happen.

There are still many on the right today who would like to see a return to the Baby Scoop Era, and a 100% relinquishment rate.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. Yeah, I'd want to hide it too, if I were an apologist.

[whathehell]

163. He asked a question..I don't see where he "apologized" for anything,

so maybe you should back off the "rush to judgment".

[AtheistCrusader]

168. He didn't.

[whathehell]

172. Then why did you call him an "apologist"?

[whatthehey]

180. apologists don't apologize

MW:

apol·o·gist
noun \ə-ˈpä-lə-jist\

: a person who defends or supports something (such as a religion, cause, or organization) that is being criticized or attacked by other people


A typical apologist tactic is to try to minimize or marginalize critical discussion.

[whathehell]

188. I get it, bro..Seriously, I'm not that literal minded and in any case,

being an "apologist" is a form of apologizing, just in an indirect form.

[whatthehey]

199. So why did you claim he was not being an apologist?

[whathehell]

208. I've already explained myself to

Atheist Crusader, so if you want to know, you can check out the post in which I did that.

[AtheistCrusader]

181. Because it doesn't mean anything about 'apologizing' and has to do with burying threads where they

can't really be seen. (Which is the point of Religion/Gungeon, and the banishment of threads to such places. (Creative speculation too))


Which was a jab, not an actual accusation. The tactic is deplorable. I know rickford66 is not an apologist for religion.

[whathehell]

186. Really?...Since when?..If that's the case, you should have used another word,

"Thread Burier", perhaps. Of course another option might be to

just acknowledge your mistake and move on, don't you think?

[AtheistCrusader]

187. I did.

In that reply to you, and to rickford66 directly.

[whathehell]

189. Not to me, bro..

at least not before a lot of "explaining" and seeming misdirection.

Whatever.

[AtheistCrusader]

190. "Which was a jab, not an actual accusation. The tactic is deplorable. I know rickford66 is not an

apologist for religion."

[whathehell]

194. Oh, I see

You begged the term "accusation" and then renounced even the preferred one of "jab"..

Very good.

[rickford66]

184. Not what you thought.

I did not want to hide this. I wanted to confront those in the religious group with it. Any time I've posted there, I get criticized. I guess you should only agree with religious people. Their beliefs trump my facts and experiences in and with the Catholic Church and a few other Christian Churches. I was unaware that this thread was in two places.

[AtheistCrusader]

185. No worries. It was an unfair insinuation.

I know you are not an apologist, but I didn't trip to the motive you just cited. (Direct discussion with certain parties.)

I withdraw the criticism.

[rickford66]

191. No harm done.

[me b zola]

41. The Church was only one player in the Baby Scoop Era

Here in the states, the "mother of modern adoption", Georgia Tann has plenty of blood on her hands:

Georgia Tann: adoption architect, child advocate, and baby killer

~snip~

Tann and her crew stole newborns from hospitals, kidnapped and abducted children from their homes or on the street, and tricked single and widowed mothers into signing over their parental rights. From the 1920’s into the 1950’s it is impossible to know how many children went through Tann’s Tennessee Children’s Home Society. Many children died as a result of neglect and abuse; in 1945 it is estimated 40-50 children died in less than four months while housed in the illegally operated home. Children were starved, beaten, molested, mentally abused, and received no medical attention. Pedophiles were employed at the home, including Tann. She sold the children without conducting background checks on the adopters. She falsified records and extorted adoptive homes. She used the children as pawns; for example, she adopted out children to politicians, and then threatened to take the child back if the political families did not support legislation in her favor. Children were sold or given away like prizes in Memphis newspapers. “(We have) the merchandise in hand and in stock to deliver to you” a 1944 letter read to a prospective client. “We can never tell when we can fill an order,” another letter explained (source). There seemed to be no limit to what the Tennessee Children’s Home Society could do.

~snip~

In public, Georgia Tann spoke out loudly against child abuse, baby selling, corruption, and advocated child welfare reform. In private she sexually, physically, and mentally abused her charges, some of which were buried in the yard due to neglect.

Tann was never punished for her deeds. Some of the practices she utilized are still part of the adoption process today. Many adults, sold as children, continue to seek out their siblings, family members, and birth parents and reveal horrific memories of abuse. It seems the evil done by Georgia Tann will never be undone.

More @ link
http://www.examiner.com/article/georgia-tann-adoption-architect-child-advocate-and-baby-killer

Georgia Tann is the person responsible for sealing adoption records. Prior to her efforts, newborns were not stripped of their identity if raised by someone other than the biologic parents. The sealing of our own identities has absolutely nothing to do with protecting children or their mothers who relinquished them; it was only a marketing ploy to make her product (other people's babies) more desirable to upper middle class families.

[RainDog]

51. I'd never heard of her before

thanks for posting this link.

[me b zola]

57. You are very welcome

If you are interested, here's one book that chronicles her deeds:

The Baby Thief: The Untold Story of Georgia Tann, the Baby Seller Who Corrupted Adoption

http://www.amazon.com/The-Baby-Thief-Corrupted-Adoption/dp/1402758634

[StevieM]

60. Oh, she was a real gem. Bessie Bernard too (see my link in the post right below yours)

Last edited Wed Feb 19, 2020, 04:03 AM - Edit history (1)

It is sad that so many people are unaware of the atrocities this woman committed. And she is, essentially, the mother of our modern system of adoption in the Unites States.

Georgia Tann brokered the adoptions that got Joan Crawford her babies. She also arranged the black market adoption of legendary pro wrestler, Ric Flair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Tann

[StevieM]

55. Thank you for pointing this out. The values of the Baby Scoop Era were endemic in the

Last edited Tue Jun 3, 2014, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)

English-speaking world. From the U.S. to Canada, Ireland to Britain, Australia to New Zealand, we bought into the writings of so-called social workers. People like Leontine Young and Dr. Marion Hilliard had utter contempt for unmarried mothers and they helped to raise up a society that brutalized them "for their own good," and "for the welfare of the child."

The ultimate manifestation of these values were psychopaths like Georgia Tann and Bessie Bernard, who were nothing but kidnappers and murderers. Bessie Bernard, when caught, got a one year sentence, which was to be suspended if she payed her $2500 fine in due time. She eventually returned to her chosen profession and was running a black market adoption ring as late as 1970.

http://birthfamily-search.adoptionblogs.com/weblogs/bessie-bernard-miami-fl

But hey...at least Joan Crawford got her kids, rather than having them raised by undeserving whores.

[Jefferson23]

135. Never knew this, words just fail. n/t

[RainDog]

240. Thanks to you and others for this information

I never knew this was happened - and I'm just stunned to know it did.

[fasttense]

61. The bible belt has that belt tightly wrapped around the necks of their poor children

"Children were sold or given away like prizes in Memphis newspapers. “(We have) the merchandise in hand and in stock to deliver to you” a 1944 letter read to a prospective client. “We can never tell when we can fill an order,” another letter explained (source). There seemed to be no limit to what the Tennessee Children’s Home Society could do."

[KittyWampus]

63. I had no idea. No idea. None.

sounds like something from a Dickens novel.

[StevieM]

67. That's what gets me so angry...most people don't even know (see my post a little above, #60)

The woman was ruthless. And her legacy looms large.

[Gormy Cuss]

71. The good news is that some states have unsealed their records.

Maine, for one. I know adoptees there who have found their birth families with positive results.

[me b zola]

74. Yes, we ARE making progress!

I was born in California, though, and even though I am in reunion with my family, I am still not entitled to my original birth certificate and sealed records.

We have much work still to do.

[intaglio]

166. But the Church was a big player

Post will be added at the bottom of this

[whathehell]

169. Thank you.

[Logical]

90. Why? nt

[Crunchy Frog]

99. Why, on Earth?

This is not about theology or beliefs, it's about a recently discovered atrocity that happened in the relatively recent past.

I'm sorry if it bothers you that it was done by an institution run by the Catholic Church.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

146. why do you think it should?

[malaise]

11. It speaks to society and hypocrisy

which is why I will forever love Jamaica's Michael Manley for tearing up the bastard act and removing the word from our vocabulary.

Forty years later we never hear that word - all children are children with the same rights.

[rickyhall]

28. Thanks for referance

I never heard of the guy till now. Now if we could just clone a thousand more!

[malaise]

33. Manley was the best Prime Minister in Jamaican history

Here's an interesting take on the bastard rubbish
http://jamaicapoliticaleconomy.wordpress.com/2013/09/11/you-bastard-you-too/

[mountain grammy]

141. I have a cousin who has lived most of her life in Jamaica.

I visited her a few years ago. We stayed in the Long Bay area (where she currently lives) in a small cottage up the hill overlooking the ocean. Beautiful place, beautiful people. Way too much unemployment, poverty and homophobia (a nod to the missionaries for that.) Like the old Eagle's song says 'you call someplace paradise, kiss it goodbye.'

But Jamaica is still paradise! Stay away from the all inclusive resorts and enjoy the country and the people. Would love to see another Prime Minister like Manley.

[jwirr]

88. Absolutely.

[gcomeau]

14. Good thing we have religion and the church keeping us all moral... -eom

[me b zola]

15. I wonder, fifty years from now if

the history of the Baby Scoop Era will be forgotten? The survivors seem to be the only ones who know the history now, others seem not too interested in learning about it. Who will tell our stories when we are gone?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

27. good point, and a very sad one.

I don't have any clever ideas...as if my ideas matter....

[me b zola]

29. Caring enough to listen helps

[BlancheSplanchnik]

42. hug too

I'm sorry you experienced this. Your story and all the stories of real women need to be remembered. There should be a monument, like The Wall, to honor women who survive.... It's why women's rights are so important.....

what's especially sad, to me, is the fact that the women who suffered and still suffer, are ignored. It's a pretty consistent thread in all punitive moral agendas. All they care about is the imaginary "baby", but once it's real, they want nothing to do with it. Septic tank. Make it disappear...

I looked at the article and the comments, and there are several typical clueless Planned Parenthood bashers making dramatic, but false, accusations about murdering "babies" (embryos).

As always, the circumstances that living women suffer do not enter their minds one little microscopic bit. Murder of actual babies and murder of actual women by the representatives of the woman hating deity, who withhold medical care because the "sluts" must be punished....that little piece they forget about.


sorry I ranted! dehumanizing women...that's a rant issue for me.....

[StevieM]

192. That's exactly right. These women are nothing but whores to them.

Their suffering isn't just tolerable--it is desirable.

And the mentality of the Baby Scoop Era lives on in many people to this day. There are many who would like to see a return to that era. Crisis pregnancy centers continue to manipulate, exploit and deceive young women. They believe that the women and girls need to be punished for their sins, and the babies are better off being separated from such horrible moms.

[mylye2222]

16. Awfull......The Church should be tried for crime against humanity. And sequestration.

[toby jo]

21. Would be wonderful to see that happen in a public way.

The slow downfall of Christianity suggests that a lot of us have tried them in our hearts and they have lost.

[anneboleyn]

118. I agree. This was genocide against the Irish.

[Arugula Latte]

144. I'd say it should be tried for crimes, plural. Multiple, multiple crimes over centuries.

What a vile, corrupt institution.

[byronius]

17. Ah, the stench of religious judgement. The bony finger of a Fake Cruel Jesus pointing out 'others'.

Weird how this shit is just accepted. It happens today. Raped girls condemned by bitter authority figures who are often secret rapists.

It's almost like there is no god.

[LittleGirl]

19. gawd, that's just...

one of the worst things I've ever read. The inhumanity of it just blows me away. Like a trash pile of bones.

[StevieM]

24. That's just it...they weren't human to some. The women were "whores" and the babies were "bastards"

eom

[OnlinePoker]

20. Canada has a sadly similar case, though not a church organized scheme

They were called Butter box babies. As the link says:

Hundreds of others were left to die, either because the medical care at the home was lacking, or because the children appeared "unmarketable," according to witnesses.

Infants who were sick, deformed or disabled, or of mixed race were fed molasses and water until they starved to death. A caretaker years later admitted to Canadian journalist Bette Cahill that he was paid to bury the babies in open graves, or in butter boxes from the local LaHave Dairy.


http://www.canadiancrc.com/Butterbox_survivors.aspx

[StevieM]

22. The Baby Scoop Era in Canada was absolutely ruthless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_scoop_era#In_Canada

[jwirr]

89. And the Catholic church is against abortion but not outright mureder of babies once born. Hypocrits.

The attitude in not dead. Listen to some of the political speakers today Santorum and Paul Ryan, etc.

[whathehell]

171. That's as silly a LIE as saying that Georgia Tan's murders were a policy of the US govt.

Georgia Tan was quite celebrated by notable Americans in her day, but that was

before THEY, let alone the government, knew what she was doing.

At this point, you can't even say the nuns "murdered" these babies let alone

that they did so with the blessings of the institutional church. Please get a grip.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

23. Says even MORE about how religion treats children defined as "bastards"....

You are supposed to to the ritual thing before you have sex.



Or the resulting kid is to be tossed in a pit.

[Arugula Latte]

31. Remember, God is a loving deity

unless He thinks you're a miserable piece of disposable trash from a slutty trollop who shouldn't have had a kid out of wedlock even if she was raped.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

35. The septic tank was their baptism.

[Demo_Chris]

124. You just perrectly summed up this story. Well done.

[Gormy Cuss]

73. Because the child must be shamed even though the parents are the ones who broke church laws.

I've never understood that thinking.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

91. I guess it goes back to the theory that EVERYONE is damned until they're "saved"....

Then you can pick and chose WHO qualifies for salvation.

[pink-o]

238. "Sins of the Fathers"

Or, in this case the Mothers. Cuz there are some whack jobs out there who believe women should be shamed due to Eve causing the downfall of humankind. In fact, some even believe birth pains is God's punishment to women for Eve's sins.

Eve playing with the serpent--is there a more Freudian metaphor for awakening female sexuality and how that alone destroyed humanity? No wonder I'm an atheist!

[mackerel]

25. Galway Historian Catherine Corless

Is trying to organize formal burials for the babes.

To donate to the memorial for the mothers and babies of The Home, contact Catherine Corless at [email protected].

[MineralMan]

30. Horrific! Most of those babies weren't stillbirths, either.

I'm sure of that. So...the conclusion is obvious. Way to go, folks!

[rug]

92. How are you sure of that?

[MineralMan]

95. Same way you're sure there's a deity, I guess.

[rug]

97. Ah, you're hoping.

[MineralMan]

98. I'm hoping for many things.

Hope is my shield.

[whathehell]

173. That's nice, but you need to distinguish your "hope" from actual facts.

especially when you clearly don't know the facts.

[msanthrope]

105. A cluster of 800 stillbirths? What the fuck was in the water? nt

[rug]

106. And your sure explanation is what?

[msanthrope]

107. My sure explanation is that the honor killings these children were subjected to by the Bon Secours

nuns were long, painful, and disgusting.

The current death records show 796 children aged 1 to 9 died there. 9 is a bit late for a stillbirth, no? They died of illness, neglect, and starvation. A death rate of 25%---near to what the 1600's produced. These children were treated as 'expendable.'

And here is the horror---there's no burial records for these kids. They were shoved in a septic tank. A place where shit is supposed to go.

The local diocese is trying to raise money for a memorial.

[rug]

109. You are sure that 800 children were killed by nuns?

[msanthrope]

110. I think that when 25% of the children entrusted to your care die of preventable and treatable

illnesses, starvation, and neglect, and are thrown in a septic tank, rather than buried, I think the people in charge must be responsible.

I think when the local welfare agents describe the children who lived in the home as "emaciated" "fragile" and "pot-bellied" then I think the people in charge must be responsible.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2645870/Mass-grave-contains-bodies-800-babies-site-Irish-home-unmarried-mothers.html

What do you think happened to these children? And who put them in a septic tank?

[rug]

111. You said they were killed.

I don't know what happened to them. Did you know these bodies were found 40 years ago?

The grave was discovered in the 1970s by 12-year-old friends, Barry Sweeney and Francis Hopkins.

[msanthrope]

112. The death records were made public, rug. So we know exactly how these 796 children died.

Of preventable and treatable diseases, starvation and neglect. At a rate comparable to the 1600s.

What do you think happened, rug?

[rug]

114. This story broke when Corless announced she had found the death records and could identify them.

She's collecting money for this project.

It can't be determined exactly what happened to them without autopsies. That's why I wonder what's been going on there for the last 40 years. But gross neglect, as opposed to starvation, seems likely.

If these were orphans, it sounds like the septic tank was used as a potter's field and there's been a massive coverup.

[msanthrope]

131. Why can't it be determined what happened to them by the cause of death listed on the death

certificates? Sure--that's pretty damning about the caretakers---children dying of preventable and treatable diseases.

Gross neglect as opposed to starvation? What does that even mean?

[rug]

132. Most of the bodies don't have death certificates as I read it.

In fact, most of them have been unidentified for 40 years.

[whathehell]

167. You do know that

what is "preventable" now was much less so in the 20's, 30's and 40's, and even

50's don't you?

My grandmother lost 3 children to disease in the 1920's and I can assure you it was

not "preventable", nor due to her being "neglectful".

[whathehell]

177. Who is claiming there were "800 stillbirths"?..The poster said there were NONE.

Get the difference?

[PeaceNikki]

134. Because it says...

"Inspection reports unearthed from files of the local health board show that the home housed hundreds of children many of whom suffered deformities, malnutrition and neglect. Causes of death included malnutrition, measles, convulsions, tuberculosis, gastroenteritis and pneumonia.

The babies were usually buried in a plain shroud without a coffin ... no memorial was erected to the dead children and the grave was left unmarked. The site is now surrounded by a housing estate."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/03/318545130/in-ireland-a-macabre-discovery-at-old-home-for-unwed-mothers

[rug]

136. It doesn't say "most".

[PeaceNikki]

139. It doesn't mention ANY as stillbirths.

It's a horrific story. The church was responsible for horrible atrocities.

Other church-run homes pretended children were orphans and gave them up for adoption — in exchange for donations — regardless of their mothers' wishes. The 2013 film Philomena was inspired by the true story of such a forced adoption. And, as government reports have detailed, the sexual and physical abuse of children at Irish church-run schools and orphanages ran rampant — and was covered up by the church hierarchy.

Corless, the Irish historian who provided the documents to the Irish newspaper, separately told The Washington Post that the women who wound up at "the Home" in Tuam were ostracized by society and by their families.

"Families would be afraid of neighbors finding out, because to get pregnant out of marriage was the worst thing on Earth," she said. "It was the worst crime a woman could commit, even though a lot of the time it had been because of a rape."

[rug]

142. Actually, not much at all is known about these bodies.

I prefer facts before rhetoric.

[PeaceNikki]

143. "Rhetoric" does not mean "things rug doesn't want to believe"

There are inspection reports. Oh, and the Irish prime minister officially apologized to the women who had been placed in exploitative laundries.

"These women were a diverse group: former prostitutes, unwed mothers, orphans, homeless women, convicts and industrial school transfers put in the care of the Catholic Church.

"Nuns ran the facilities, known as Magdalene Laundries, on a commercial basis, doing laundry for the state, private companies and individuals. But the inmates were never paid for the work, and all profit went to the church."

http://www.npr.org/2013/02/24/172740950/irish-women-emerge-from-shadows-of-national-shame

Women and children were horribly abused. Facts. Not rhetoric.

[rug]

145. And it doesn't mean "Time to trot out PeaceNikki's talking points."

[PeaceNikki]

148. hrm. odd. like what 'talking points'? that doesn't even make sense.

I was quoting 2 articles about investigations.

whatever.

[rug]

151. Yeah, whatever.

[PeaceNikki]

153. no shit.

[theHandpuppet]

155. Do you consider this "rhetoric"?

This is the kind of care mothers and babies were receiving at these "mother-and-baby" homes. The abuse wasn't limited to just one home and the horrendous number of infant deaths at Tuam was not an aberration.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/call-for-mother-and-baby-home-inquiry-270865.html

In his 1989 book To Cure and To Care — Memoirs of a Chief Medical Officer, former Chief Medical Officer at the Department of Health James Deeny spoke of his concerns at the inordinately high child death rates at Bessborough Mother and Baby Home in Cork.

He estimated that 100 out of 180 babies born at the home for unmarried mothers, run by the Sisters of the Sacred Heart, died in one year.

“Dr Deeny was so concerned that he travelled to Cork to visit the home,” said Ms Lohan. “Initially he couldn’t see any reason for the high death rate but then asked one of the nuns if he could look at the babies’ nappies.

“When the nappies were opened, it emerged the babies and toddlers were sitting in putrefying diarrhoea that was being ignored and the nuns wanted it all covered up.”

[rug]

157. No, that is specific to this story.

It doesn't come wrapped in predigested talking points.

[PeaceNikki]

161. I think me saying, "The church was responsible for horrible atrocities." is what pissed him off

Still not rhetoric.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

147. it mentions NOTHING about stillbirths, so where the fuck are you making that up from?

[Arugula Latte]

149. Amazing that there are DU church apologists for even this type of horror, isn't it?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

154. i actually am fine if people say, maybe that number is normal for that time period

or something like that

but to just pull out the idea of stillbirths from thin air, is just nonsensical

[PeaceNikki]

162. This is "St. rug" defender of the oppressed Catholics.

or something.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

164. LOL and maker-up of info, when current info does not suit existing beliefs. nt

[PeaceNikki]

165. talking points!!

STRAWMAN!!!11!!

[rug]

175. I see you still didn't find who brought up still births in the first place.

This exchange was so much more productive.

[rug]

174. It's good to get facts before running your mouth with your usual religion-baiting.

You should try it.

[PeaceNikki]

178. dear st rug,

Please point out exactly where you are accusing me of not.


Thanks!

[rug]

179. As soon as you use the correct name, nik.

[rug]

150. First of all, don't come flying in accusing me of making things "the fuck" up.

Second, stop gnawing on your arm and go back and read the original reply.

Third, don't ever come off that way to me again.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

152. i can come off any damn way i please. i dont think i need your permission. nt

[rug]

156. You can come off any danm way you want, no matter how asinine.

Just don't do it in front of me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

158. i can also do it any where i please. you dont run this website, or my words.

you can continue to 'threaten' me, but besides alerting or ignoring me, your threats mean very very very very very little to me.

[rug]

159. Oh, please.

You came into to the subthread spewing "where the fuck are you making that up from?", your caps omitted, and now you claim you're threatened?

Grow up.

[anneboleyn]

115. Yes, apparently, severe malnutrition, TB, untreated diseases, horrific skin conditions...

This horrible story was being discussed on reddit earlier today. This institute was cited for abuse and severe neglect dating back to the 1930s! The bodies (which are NOT all "newborns" or "stillbirths&quot show signs of untreated diseases, severe malnutrition, and so on. Unbelievable -- and anyone (I don't care what the church argues!) still alive associated should be prosecuted for criminal acts.

[MineralMan]

130. A very sad situation. I find it terribly disturbing.

[truebrit71]

34. Further proof that religion poisons everything...

...

[LanternWaste]

58. More accurately, further proos that humanity poisons everything...

More accurately, further proof that humanity poisons everything (for as we've seen upthread, this is not in fact, predicated only on religion)

[frazzled]

36. How does this comport with the Church's strict "right to life" stance?

This is astounding: a Church that has been strictly orthodox in its views regarding contraception and abortion can tolerate the deaths of all these children?

I am truly interested to see what Pope Francis has to say about this, and how it might affect his views on the subject. I am hopeful that there will be some alteration in the Church's positions after this horrendous revelation (I know, it's silly to be hopeful on this score).

Disclosure: I am not Catholic, so I don't have skin in that game; but I am interested.

[StevieM]

43. I am interested to see just how much media coverage this story gets.

I think that this is a a story that should lead off the nightly news. 800 dead children have just turned up. But I wonder whether it will get the coverage that a healthier society would accord to it.

Maybe it will at least be a big story in Ireland. But it is important to remember that the Baby Scoop Era was not limited to this one country. Forced adoptions and so-called maternity homes were omni-present in the English-speaking world, including and especially right here in the United States.

And there are a lot of people who yearn for those good old days. Crisis Pregnancy Centers continue to terrorize scared young girls, telling them any lie they need to in order to separate them from their children.

[theHandpuppet]

44. Here's an article from the Irish Times (Dublin)

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/call-for-inquiry-into-deaths-at-tuam-mother-and-baby-home-1.1819188

[KittyWampus]

64. Thanks for link- unfortunately no comments. I wanted to read comments from Irish citizens reacting

to news.

[rug]

96. This grave was first found nearly 40 years ago.

Everything I'm reading now is sourced back to the Mail and then to Corless.

http://www.pressreader.com/search?query=tuam

Cclick on the "Church to meet over memorial for 800 babies at mass grave" article, dated June 2, 2014.)

What gives?

[Eyerish]

230. Well it appears they never thought they were remains from The Home...

http://news.msn.com/world/800-babies-buried-in-septic-tank-at-irish-home-for-unmarried-mothers

Death records suggest 796 children, from newborns to eight-year-olds, were deposited in a grave near a Catholic-run home for unmarried mothers during the 35 years it operated from 1925 to 1961.

Historian Catherine Corless, who made the discovery, says her study of death records for the St Mary's home in Tuam in County Galway suggests that a former septic tank near the home was a mass grave.

The septic tank, full to the brim with bones, was discovered in 1975 by locals when concrete slabs covering the tank broke up.

Until now, locals believed the bones mainly stemmed from the Great Irish famine of the 1840s when hundreds of thousands perished.


I also found a facebook page that appears to belongs to her which lists some of her research.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MotherBaby-Home-Research/1381096678815670?ref=stream&fref=nf

From a press release,

"You may be aware that there was an old orphanage called St. Mary's, (known locally as the 'Home')
on the Dublin road, where now stands the Dublin Road housing estate.

It was run by the Bon Secours Sisters from 1925 to the summer of 1961. Locally there is some knowledge
that there is a graveyard at the site of the Home but it is often presumed that it is a burial ground for famine
victims.

However, new research undertaken by a Brownsgrove woman, Catherine Corless, has uncovered that it is
in fact the grounds where 788 children, from newborns to eight year olds, were buried during the
lifetime of the home."

So yeah, the grave was discovered 40 years ago but her recent research is what uncovered the truth about what really happened. That and the fact they want to create a memorial is what seems to be making this recent news.

[rug]

231. That's a little clearer.

I still find it odd that after a mass grave was found, no one, archaeologist or otherwise, investigated for forty years.

Do you know anything about Corless? All news reports lead back to her.

[Eyerish]

241. Only that she is a local Historian from the area...

and she was working with a local committee researching the plot

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2014/06/04/4030669-committee-and-sisters-meet-over-unmarked-mass-grave/

Are you thinking there might be an issue with Ms. Corless's discovery?

[rug]

242. I'm trying to cut through the expected rhetoric around this and learn what happened

in the intervening 40 years.

[riderinthestorm]

48. Underscores how the REALLY important part of the anti-abortion folks is control of women

NOT a concern for the children...

They disguise their thirst for control of women as "caring" about the fetus and "right to life".

But that concern completely disappears once the child is born.

Our current anti-abortion culture has deep roots.

[msanthrope]

108. It comports very well, because the Catholic Church is interested in souls, not the physical body.

Thus children can be starved, beaten, and molested, but because the CC focuses on the redemption of the soul, as opposed to salvation of the bleeding bodies in front of them, all is well.

What matters the body, when the soul is eternal.

[nomorenomore08]

126. It's about control. Organized Christianity has never given two shits about human life, in actual

fact. Hell, they've spent the last 2000 years slaughtering people, what do you expect?

[whathehell]

193. Most "organizations", Christian, Non-Christan and Sectarian are about "control"

or are you proposing that every, or even NEARLY everu slaughter "in the last 2,000 years"

been perpetrated by Christians? Do you realize how absurd you sound, or are

you simply competing for Most Outlandish Overstatement on the thread?

If so, I'd call your chances of winning good.

[nomorenomore08]

200. Yes, it was hyperbole. But I find the Catholic Church's present-day "respect for life" stance

laughably disingenuous and hypocritical, considering their history. Maybe I could've made the point with a bit less exaggeration, though.

[whathehell]

204. Thanks for that..

A nice, civil reply on DU can be exceedingly rare and is much appreciated.


Like most organizations over the centuries, religious and secular, the Church has changed.

I don't think they're likely to change their position on abortion, but it might interest

you to know that they do show some consistency in being anti-death penalty as well.

[nomorenomore08]

206. Anti-DP and anti-war is always good. But I find the anti-choice aspect hard to forgive - especially

thinking of the women I care about - because restricting access to abortion (and contraception) is ultimately lethal in many cases.

[whathehell]

207. My understanding is..

that abortion is allowed if birth would kill the mother -- It didn't used to be, but I believe

it is now. As for contraception, very few catholics, at least in the US, abide by that.

In the end, even the Church admits that one must make decisions based on your own

personal conscience.

I'm not a practicing catholic, I just think that, on balance, they're no worse (and in some

cases better) than the Fundamentalist Protestants.

[nomorenomore08]

209. I absolutely agree with the last part. The RCC does at least allow greater freedom of thought and/or

conscience than many of the other more "traditionalist" Christian sects. And I can say, as a former Catholic-school kid, that my own politics and worldview have certainly been shaped by the more progressive, social-justice-oriented wing of the Church.

[whathehell]

214. Yes, and they accept Evolution & don't preach that idiotic "Creationism"

When did you attend Catholic School?...My niece went in the Seventies

and she tells me it was much better than when I went which was

in the freaking FIFTIES and early Sixties...We were boomers, so,

apart from the conservatism, we were severely overcrowded, like averaging

about 65 kids a class.

P.S. Did you ever see the mid=1980s movie "Heaven Help Us"? -- It featured
David Southerland and one of the brat pack kids, whose name I now forget.

It depicted Catholic School in the Sixties, and, I recommend it -- Funny as hell, and
so realistic, it HAD to have been written by a another Catholic School kid!

[nomorenomore08]

221. I graduated from the 8th grade in '99, and then high school in '03. Yes, I'm a young 'un.

U.C. Santa Cruz (graduated '07 as a literature/creative writing major) was the first public school I ever attended.

Granted, the schools I went to were relatively liberal as Catholic institutions go - this was in the El Cerrito/Richmond (CA) area - and "indoctrination" aside we were encouraged to think for ourselves at least to some extent. Yes, they did give us a good dose of Church teaching on various subjects (e.g. sexual "morality&quot but they had no problem with, for instance, students participating in the Day of Silence for LGBT rights, which I did 3 years in a row as a high school student.

I'll look that movie up. Thanks for the rec.

[whathehell]

225. Oh, yes you are!

Jeebus, they allowed you to participate in a "Day of Silence" for LGBT Rights?

Gays weren't even MENTIONED in my day..In fact, the word "gay"

as a term meaning homosexual had yet to be coined!

That is SO much more liberal than my school days, that

I'm tempted to paraphrase a Reform Judaism joke and

ask if the nuns were Catholic

You're certainly welcome for the rec...Send me a pm after you've seen it

and let me know what you thought.

[nomorenomore08]

226. Progress, on the "micro" level, can so often seem agonizingly slow if not nonexistent.

But when you look at things over the longer term, the difference is quite striking. The shenanigans in Cincinnati right now have been excoriated as a ridiculous throwback - whereas decades ago, even within my lifetime, this would've been considered business as usual.

[whathehell]

234. Yes, that's true..

What is going on in Cincinnati?

[nomorenomore08]

235. The "morality contract" the Archdiocese is now making all Catholic school teachers sign.

Even Catholic priests have been quoted on record calling it excessive.

[whathehell]

236. What might the "morality contract" require?

[nomorenomore08]

239. Here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/02/cincinnati-teachers-morality-clause_n_5431710.html

[theHandpuppet]

237. Not just Cincinnati anymore, but Columbus and Cleveland.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025052302
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024933175

[PeaceNikki]

210. I definitely agree with that last part. I was raised an evangelical Lutheran and they're nuts, too.

They just don't get as much attention because there are many small sects that vary greatly in their belief systems and don't have a unified mouthpiece like the pope. They get attention on an individual basis like that crazy Kevin Swanson who believes BCP turns a woman's 'womb into a graveyard full of hundreds of tiny dead babies'.

[whathehell]

216. Thanks for sharing that, PeaceNikki..

My husband was raised as a "standard" Lutheran in Michigan (I believe they are

now called "The American Lutheran Church&quot He said there were three "mainstream"

Lutheran synods and he belonged to the most progressive of the three. He mentioned

the Evangelical Lutheran Church as being the LEAST progressive, and he called the Wisconsin

Synod flat out nuts.

I like your insight about the RC Church...It is easier to avoid attention when one

has no big unified mouthpiece, yes. It may be the reason I never heard of Kevin Swanson.

Is he an Evangelical?...What is "BCP" ?

[PeaceNikki]

217. lol, yeah. I was raised WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod). The craziest.

So was Michelle Bachmann. I got out just when entering high school thankfully.

Swanson is a radio host. I am not sure what specific denomination. Check him out: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Kevin_Swanson . He's a real piece of work.

BCP = birth control pills. Here's the story:

"Swanson: I’m beginning to get some evidence from certain doctors and certain scientists that have done research on women’s wombs after they’ve gone through the surgery, and they’ve compared the wombs of women who were on the birth control pill to those who were not on the birth control pill. And they have found that with women who are on the birth control pill, there are these little tiny fetuses, these little babies, that are embedded into the womb. They’re just like dead babies. They’re on the inside of the womb. And these wombs of women who have been on the birth control pill effectively have become graveyards for lots and lots of little babies."

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/swanson-wombs-women-birth-control-embedded-dead-babies#sthash.Xcg191QU.dpuf

I first heard of this on Dan Savage's podcast.

[whathehell]

233. OMG..Michelle Bachman..It's good you got out in time!

In all seriousness, though, the odds are you would not have wound up like her

in any case. Some people, it seems, are "pre-disposed" to being super-religious.

Certain kids, like me, took it all quite seriously and were scared shitless

of going to Hell. Others, like my mom, were observant, but matter of fact

and not at all fearful

Were your parents upset when you left WELS?..These things can cause rifts

in families..My parents didn't much care that I left the Church, but I know

it can be a bit deal in some families/religions.

On a lighter note, I went to your links to check out Mr. Swanson -- Oh Yeah,

Certifiable -- Another Wingnut who doesn't get basic biology.."Wombs that are

little graveyard of babies" Please tell me his following is small.

You know, apart from Dave and his obvious insanity, I had no idea that

protestants or any protestant sect was against Birth Control...I thought this

was strictly an RC thing...Are the WELS against birth control?

[PeaceNikki]

243. no kidding.

My whole family defected together at that time. There were several incidents that lead up to it, and a life full of exclusion and misogyny. But the straw that broke the camel's back was this: My 2 siblings and I attended a tiny WELS school for K-8. The same school my mom attended. We were pretty involved in the church and school. Near the end of that, it had been discovered that there was a significant amount of asbestos in the gym. My mother lead a charge to insist it be removed. The church, despite having the money, was balking at the enormous cost. My mother was very passionate about it. In a meeting with the board, she was literally told to sit down and shut up and let the men make the decisions. She knew at that moment she couldn't raise 2 daughters and a son in that environment.

I am not sure where they stand these days on BC in general. I left when I was *just* too young to even discuss such matters. They definitely have enormously strong opinions on the role of women. It's also a very incestuous sect. It's small and the pastor/teacher's kids get treated like kings.

Oh, also, after we left and moved onto the public HS, my best friend from grade school went on to the Lutheran HS. Sophomore year she got pregnant. She was quickly expelled.

Yeah, glad I am gone. My parents have since become and raised 3 kids to become extremely liberal, bleeding heart, successful, politically active agnostic leaning atheists. We were all confirmed in the church and got out. Yeah, I have grown to resent organized religion immensely. But it's not for lack of knowledge, it's a result of life experience.

Anyway... that's my story and I am stickin' to it.

[Arugula Latte]

227. The RCC doesn't give a shit about "life." They care about controlling women.

That is their true agenda.

Fuck them.

[JDPriestly]

37. The ultimate pro-life solution.

This is why we abortions are legal. This is why we do not condemn unmarried mothers. This is why we need birth control. This is why we need mandatory paid maternity leave, food stamps and food banks.

The human drive to reproduce is strong and out of balance with the ability of our society to nourish and foster children.

The Catholic Church is responsible for many deaths of innocent children.

Birth control is necessary at a time when we are able to prolong life and prevent deaths of children that were at one time just a part of life.

Read history and you will learn that the deaths of children were commonplace.

Gustav Mahler wrote music in memory of his dead children. The Kindertotenlieder.


When your mommy
steps in through the door
and I turn my head
to see at her,
falling on her face
my gaze does not first fall,
but at the place
nearer the doorstep,
there, where your
dear little face would be,
when you with bright joy
step inside,
as you used to, my little daughter.

When your mommy
steps in through the door
with the glowing candle,
it seems to me, always
you came in too,
hurrying behind her,
as you used to come into the room.
Oh you, of a father's cell,
ah, too soon
extinguished light!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindertotenlieder

We have come so far. The terrible pain of losing a child is less common now. But the Catholic Church and fundamentalists who oppose birth control have never changed their beliefs to accommodate the new reality.

We must do far more to protect the health and lives of the children who are born, and that means birth control.

[Freddie]

102. Correct

Back in the day Farmer Joe needed lots of kids to plow the fields. Since half of all babies born then did not live to see their 5th birthday, a steady replacement supply was needed. Odds are that Mrs. Farmer Joe would die in childbirth along the way (check your family history); he'd just get another wife and carry on.
Today, thank God, babies and wives don't die as often, and huge families are a liability unless your name in Duggar. Religions opposed to contraception haven't quite grasped the new reality of the past 80 years or so.

[AllyCat]

38. Horrible.

More of what will come back if we keep people from access to safe and legal birth control and therapeutic abortion.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

39. Now those are some faith based initiatives for you.

[Zorra]

40. A grim reminder of the criminal insanity of RW Republican religious wackos, like Ted Cruz,

who are relentlessly trying to assume power over our government, and control every aspect of our lives and liberty according to their delusions, right at this moment.

[freshwest]

123. +1. Cruz in particular, would have no problem with this. Remember that one of his church's beliefs

is that all wealth should be taken from the sinners and given to the 'righteous.' Yes, they know full well that will kill millions they call sinners.

[Zorra]

212. A "Handmaid's Tale" scenario could very well become a reality if Cruz managed to get into the WH.

If he is nominated, it will be the only thing I need to campaign 24/7 for the Democratic candidate, whoever she is.

[freshwest]

220. Definitely. Although I'll be working for any Dem vs. the Cabal. Lotsa socialist ideas here still.

Dems are secularists. That's why they want us dead. I'm seeing the Cruz types flourish on media, way too much. It's a matter of survival to me and the people I care about.

[GoCubsGo]

45. It won't surprise me if this isn't the only place like that.

Not just in Ireland, either. Can't say the behavior of the nuns toward the "Home Children" surprises me, either. How the hell women like that were allowed to be anywhere near children is beyond me.

[theHandpuppet]

49. The abuse was ongoing and horrific

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1184828/Revealed-decades-ritual-child-abuse-Catholic-schools-orphanages-damned-report.html

And I'm sure it wasn't happening just in Ireland, either.

[Niceguy1]

93. that was pretty

Much common place world wide for the time.

[StevieM]

100. It was especially bad in the English-speaking world

The writings of so-called "social workers," like Leontine Young and Dr. Marion Hilliard convinced people that the best thing for the child was to take it from the mother, by whatever means necessary.

[Niceguy1]

104. even worse

In latin America. ..... things sucked globally, not just where english was spoken.

We aee fortunate to live in a better world.

[StevieM]

113. I will try to learn more about the practices that took place in Latin America.

I just know that the Anglo countries were pretty bad.

I don't believe these practices ever took root in places like Germany and France. I do know that South Korea was a nightmare for unwed mothers. Obviously, the Warsaw Pact countries had a load of human rights problems, but I don't think that forced adoptions took place there to the same extent.

[polly7]

117. This has happened both in Canada and the U.S.

I'll try to remember the posts on them to bring over. I imagine it's happened in many, many countries.

[sybylla]

46. "...The events that transpired there ... would even make a Nazi war criminal blush..."

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/06/03/bodies-of-800-children-were-just-resting-in-mass-grave-claims-catholic-church/

There just aren't words to describe sick fuckers like these.

Local Catholic tool claims the children were just resting there, that the church hadn't abandoned them.

[PaddyIrishman]

138. Waterford Whispers News is a Parody Site

It's a local version of the Onion.

The reference to "just resting" is a reference to Father Ted which was a Channel 4 Comedy Series "That money was just resting in my account".


[link:http://www.fathertedquotes.co.uk/|

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Poverty and Mother Church were the two reasons my grandmother fled Ireland.

She used to get pissed at the old movies that showed the kindly priests and dewy eyed nuns. I don't remember her language but I'm sure it wasn't "Christian" when she saw the likes of Bing Crosby and Pat O'Brien smiling lovingly.

[Tribalceltic]

50. My wife was kidnapped as an infant

There are no words to explain the horror. her 95 year old adoptive "father" is a pillar of the local church. On the day he dies I will be forwarding a file containing all of the knowledge we have of the transaction along with names,dates and places that may help others. I cannot do this before he dies because of the pain it would cause my wife.
All churches that participate in closed adoptions should have all of their worldly goods confiscated and any persons involved should be imprisoned for the length of any child whose lives they have affected.

Candles for all adopted children especially those have been adversely affected.

[StevieM]

66. Your post brought tears to my eyes. All my love to your family.

The people who did these things were not stereotypical "lowlifes." They were doctors, lawyers and Hollywood celebrities. It is disgusting how our society has turned children into commodities.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for people who struggle with infertility...but there are limits. Nobody owes another person a baby.

After her a-dad passes I hope your wife can find her biological family.

[secondwind]

52. The Catholic Church was complicit in the mental and physical abuse of these children and their death

[dilby]

53. 800 children in about 40 years sounds about right.

It's not like they were killing the kids off, they were dying of natural causes.

[me b zola]

59. They killed the ones that weren't "marketable"

...or raped to death.

Shame on your post.

[dilby]

68. You must have read a different article than me or did not read it.

Seems the major complaint was how the bodies were disposed of, the woman was upset they did not have child coffins not that they were dead.

[Ikonoklast]

82. There are plenty of other sources that you should read.

Children dying from abuse, starvation, neglect...and murder.

In Ireland, at the hands of the RCC.


https://www.google.com/webhp?tab=ww&ei=_0OOU7DrNZPSsATjlYHYCg&ved=0CBcQ1S4#newwindow=1&q=irish+orphans+abused+murdered


I only found 39,900,000 articles on the subject.

[Jefferson23]

137. You have to be fucking kidding me with this post..you playing some kind of game here?

What exactly do you not understand about the OP?

[StevieM]

62. They created the conditions in those hell holes. Shame on you (eom)

[alphafemale]

69. It in no way sounds "about right"

They were stuffing the bodies in the septic tank because the number of tiny graves appearing would have maybe been the one thing that would have caused the people in town to take a closer look.

Sounds "about right."

And a child starving to death is not a natural cause, by the way.

[dilby]

75. A child starving to death in Ireland under British Rule was not uncommon.

The whole country was in turmoil and infant mortality rate was higher than most of Europe.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

78. 1925 - 1961 Ireland was independent. n/t

[alphafemale]

79. Yeah. The Potato Famine was deliberate genocide.

While this was merely mass murder.

So, no big thing.

Nothing to see here.

[anneboleyn]

129. Not under "British Rule," and twentieth century, not nineteenth. No excuse

for the deliberate starvation and mistreatment of these children -- it is not the same as "infant mortality" when babies and very young children are being starved and denied available medical care until they die of treatable conditions. Their bodies were then callously DUMPED IN A SEPTIC TANK by a church that constantly proclaims its supposed concern for the welfare of babies, its pro-life views, its condemnation of contraception -- not to mention the church's traditional views on burying the dead in a respectful manner, not dumping the bodies as sewage.

The Irish government paid these homes a stipend per child, which just adds to the disgusting abuses committed by this baby mill. They were taking the money from the government, then selling adoptable children to wealthy Americans and other foreign families, and neglecting other, less marketable children until they died. It is that simple, and criminal prosecution is appropriate, although most of the perpetrators are likely dead.

[herding cats]

76. The recorded deaths occur during a 29 year period.

From 1932 when it was mandated by law deaths be recorded, until the home was closed in 1961.

“Eventually I had the idea to contact the registry office in Galway. I remembered a law was enacted in 1932 to register every death in the country. My contact said give me a few weeks and I’ll let you know.”

“A week later she got back to me and said do you really want all of these deaths? I said I do. She told me I would be charged for each record. Then she asked me did I realize the enormity of the numbers of deaths there?”

The registrar came back with a list of 796 children. “I could not believe it. I was dumbfounded and deeply upset,” says Corless. “There and then I said this isn’t right. There’s nothing on the ground there to mark the grave, there’s nothing to say it’s a massive children’s graveyard. It’s laid abandoned like that since it was closed in 1961.”
http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Galway-historian-reveals-truth-behind-800-orphans-in-mass-grave.html

From the same article:

A local health board inspection report from April 1944 recorded 271 children and 61 single mothers in residence, a total of 333 in a building that had a capacity for 243.

The report described the children as “emaciated,” “pot-bellied,” “fragile” with “flesh hanging loosely on limbs.” The report noted that 31 children in the “sun room and balcony” were “poor, emaciated and not thriving.” The effects of long term neglect and malnutrition were observed repeatedly.

Children died at The Home at the rate of one a fortnight for almost 40 years, one report claims. Another appears to claim that 300 children died between 1943 and 1946, which wold mean two deaths a week in the isolated institution.

This is an exceptional death rate of infants and small children, even for that era. Death by malnutrition and neglect is considered a crime and not natural causes by any means.

What took place there was an atrocity, at best. The saddest part is it was common practice at the time.

The staggering mortality rate of “The Home” was apparently replicated elsewhere in Ireland.

The Sean Ross Mother and Baby Home, portrayed in the award winning film “Philomena” this year, opened in Roscrea, County Tipperary in 1930. In its first year of operation 60 babies died out of a total of 120, a fifty percent infant mortality rate, more than four times higher than in the general population at the time.

Statistics show a quarter of all babies born outside marriage in the 1930’s in Ireland died before their first birthdays. As observers have remarked elsewhere, these were infant death rates from the 17th century.

In one year alone in the mid 1940’s in the Bessborough Mother and Baby Home in County Cork, out of the 180 babies born 100 died.

Given the shockingly high mortality rates, it is hard not to conclude that the destabilizing threat these children represented to Irish society and its conservative religious ethos may have contributed to their untimely demise.
http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

It's contended by adoption rights advocates in Ireland the babies with disabilities or other health issues in these homes were not cared for properly and allowed to die. The reason being they were not adoptable overseas where their core market was, and were of no use to these institutions.

Make no mistake, these deaths, and how these bodies were disposed of, is a horrific example of systemic abuse which was once ignored by society as too dirty a secret to face.

[muriel_volestrangler]

94. Thank you. I hope that will make dilby think again (nt)

[anneboleyn]

116. This makes me sick. Just appalling. Pro-life, yeah, right.

[libnnc]

80. Bullshit. Shame on you. eom

[theHandpuppet]

81. That you would even mount some rationale or excuse for this is appalling

And here I initially thought you simply forgot to add the sarcasm tag to your post.

[Ilsa]

54. I am speechless, yet not surprised.

[cantbeserious]

56. No Words

eom

[Prophet 451]

70. Satan's Name

I just, I hate humanity.

[alphafemale]

72. I'm thinking of some of those mothers now in their seventies or older.

How many of them are still alive who managed to go on with their lives.

And they hungered for a child never held, but were told they were adopted and dared believe that maybe they had a good life somewhere.

How could you not imagine the worst and have your heart shattered again?

[StevieM]

77. We need to open the sealed birth records so that the babies that did survive

can reunite with their mothers before they die.

Of course, in places like Ireland, many of those records were deliberately destroyed in "accidents." But here in the United States there is no reason why we cannot give adoptees access to their original birth certificates.

The excuse, of course, is that we are protecting the privacy that was supposedly promised to birth mothers. But if you talk to these women you very rarely hear a story about being promised privacy. They were bullied. They were threatened. In many cases they were drugged. But they never asked for, nor were promised, privacy.

[alphafemale]

86. I imagine it would be the rare parent of an adopted adult child...

...who would feel threatened by a search for a birth mother at this point. The youngest of these children would be in their fifties. Which would put the parents, well to be blunt. Very likely most of the adoptive parents are probably dead. Or in their nineties. (with the estimate that most adoptive couples were likely 35 or older.)

I can't imagine having a child stolen against your will like that. I CAN imagine searching the face of every child who would be the age of yours. I can imagine counting every birthday.

Knowing what would have been their first day of school. Their graduation. And always wondering.

Perhaps not even knowing if your child was a boy or a girl.

[StevieM]

87. The Baby Scoop Era was a terrible time. It was a "tell the world what happened here" chapter.

But it is not fully recognized as such. Very few people want to be told what happened. The treatment of birth mothers in our society is horrendous.

There are so many women who would love to see their children again before they die. It makes me sick to my stomach to think that we are actively denying them that right. Where is the virtue in that?

And yes, many first mothers have been known to say that the time around their child's birthday is particularly hard on them. In most cases, they are thinking of that child, and little else, on that day.

[Sissyk]

83. There are no words. n/t

[frogmarch]

84. Magdalene Laundries - Joni Mitchell

[me b zola]

205. This subject is close to her heart~Joni Mitchell lost a child to adoption during the scoop era

Adopted Girl Finds Mom, Joni Mitchell



TORONTO — "It was very comfortable, very natural," said Kilauren Gibb, after a reunion with her birth mother, singer Joni Mitchell, in Los Angeles. Mitchell, who placed Kilauren up for adoption 32 years ago, also met her grandson, Gibb's son, Marlin, 3. Gibb was 27 when she learned she'd been adopted. A child welfare agency told her that her birth mother was a "successful Canadian folk singer." She became convinced Mitchell was her mother after noting similarities while checking out the singer's website.


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1997-04-09/news/9704090099_1_child-welfare-agency-joni-mitchell-adopted

[frogmarch]

213. Oh! I didn't know this.

Thanks for the info and the link.

[StevieM]

222. Wow...her daughter was an LDA (Late Discovery Adoptee). I can't believe that as late as 1997

there are still people who keep it hidden for so long.

Actually....yes I can. I've heard these kinds of stories before. How can anyone even try to claim that it is about the welfare of the child?

[me b zola]

224. Did you know that Darryl McDaneils, one of the originators of hip-hop, was a late-discovery adoptee

~also a Baby Scoop Era adoptee

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darryl_McDaniels

I love this song that he and Sara McLachlan, also a Baby Scoop Era adoptee, collaborated on.

[StevieM]

228. I had no idea. Great video! LDA stories always shock the hell out of me.

I try to understand the mindset that leads to them....and I guess in a way I do.

I have never personally met a LDA.

James Lane, the 2013 Green Party candidate for NYC Public Advocate was a LDA.

[me b zola]

229. He's a terrific progressive!

~and one of my facebook friends

[RKP5637]

101. Good old religion, ain't it just great! n/t

[theHandpuppet]

103. Another article, this one from NPR

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/03/318545130/in-ireland-a-macabre-discovery-at-old-home-for-unwed-mothers

[abelenkpe]

119. Whoa

I had never heard of the baby scoop era. This entire thread is really disturbing and sad. Those poor children and mothers.

[StevieM]

120. Sadly, many Americans don't realize that the Baby Scoop Era took place, or what it entailed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_scoop_era

[theHandpuppet]

122. Two more articles

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/call-for-mother-and-baby-home-inquiry-270865.html
http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Galway-historian-reveals-truth-behind-800-orphans-in-mass-grave.html

[pacalo]

125. Horrible.

I first became aware of Ireland's homes for unwed mothers when I saw The Magdalene Sisters years back.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318411/

[baldguy]

128. "The Bon Secours Health System is the largest private hospital network in Ireland."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Health_System

[LiberalEsto]

140. Not even given Christian burials, poor things

That's how much they value "life"

[intaglio]

170. The Church was a huge player in this scandal

In Spain
From about 1937 for 40 to 50 years an estimated 300,000 - that is correct three hundred thousand - children were stolen from their mothers
Source BBC Spain's stolen babies and the families who lived a lie

In Chile a similar history seems to have unfolded with children being stolen for some 30 years at least
Source The Guardian Chile: Catholic priests investigated over stolen babies

Various Christian groups were also very much to the fore in the "Home Children" shipped overseas from the UK, and in the abduction of aboriginal children in Australia.

[Dawson Leery]

183. The Satanic Cult of Emperor Constantine strikes again!

Last edited Wed Jun 4, 2014, 08:26 PM - Edit history (1)

Listening to Roma Downey speak of the wonders of this horrific crime syndicate is vomit inducing.




Perhaps there was something to historic anti-Catholic sentiment. The church was nothing more than a crime syndicate wrapped inside the name of Jesus.

[get the red out]

196. Worse than a puppy mill

What about that "right to life" bullshit they spew? They starved these kids then threw their bodies into a hole to rot. There are your fucking demons; angry, pinched faced, buzzards walking around in habits, torturing for God.

[myrna minx]

197. *speechless*

[AngryAmish]

211. My parents came from the Ireland of that era

Not Limerick but nearby. There was grinding poverty in that era. My mother's side had a farm so was close to the 1% of Ireland but with 9 kids 7 had to emigrate. We used to send old clothes back to cousins in the 1970s. My grandparents on my father's side got plumbing in their house in 1975...and they were well off comparatively.

Infanticide was practiced. As it does in every poor culture. Huge families were the norm.

Judge not lest ye ...

[Sunlei]

215. not just babies, children had to live and die there.

Once, in 1995, Corless said in the phone interview, several boys had stumbled across the mass grave, which lay beneath a cracked piece of concrete: “The boys told me it had been filled to the brim with human skulls and bones. They said even to this day they still have nightmares of finding the bodies.”