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Wed May 28, 2014, 01:14 AM

 

Misogyny should not be tolerated on DU

And neither, for that matter, should complaining about "misandry" which is just a reactionary way of complaining about feminism in 99.999% of cases, give or take.

The things that are totally antithetical to Democratic and progressive principles should not be tolerated. Misogyny is among those things.

Lest we forget... http://www.democrats.org/people/women There's a whole section in the Democratic Party devoted to women. There's not an equivalent one for men-as it should be. Know why? Because men aren't a socially disenfranchised class, not historically and not currently in the US. Fact.

Feel free to rec this post if you agree, feel free to trash it if you disagree. But I am tired of seeing the most odious, right-wing talking points re: women and feminism on a supposedly progressive site, routinely, day after day. And I know I am far from alone in that regard.

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Reply Misogyny should not be tolerated on DU (Original post)
YoungDemCA May 2014 OP
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Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:18 AM

1. Everytime i see misandry i start laughing.

 

But i am not really amused. Just irritated.
Or when i see someone bring up that lady that shot Andy Warhol before i was even born. I guess that one lady evened up the score for all eternity.

Rest easy ladies, a lady shot Andy Warhol so misogyny was over 40 year ago. You are imagining things. Thats how i feel about that.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #1)

Wed May 28, 2014, 05:12 AM

60. Seems to be quite the joke on DU

Even if it involves jokes about male genital mutilation which would never be tolerated if the gender roles were reversed.

http://www.google.com/search?q=bobbitt+jokes+site:democraticunderground.com

And who can forget about the suggestion that all males be castrated at puberty? That one was a real knee slapper.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #60)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:08 AM

71. I was like 8 when the Bobbit thing happened.

 

As for the rest..... I have seen a man here tell a woman that he hopes she gets raped orally and expires from lack of oxygen. He was not joking. I did not see you speak out against that. Did you? I may not have noticed your post. But i have seen you bring up a lady who shot a guy years before i was born and act like that makes things even.

Let me know when women start going on man killing rampages, rape murdering men by the thousands, and recieving support from feminists. Until then, i think you have a weak case for misandry being the real problem.

You should start a foundation. Men against women laughing at men. You'll make money.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #71)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:31 AM

74. How old were you last March?

Because that's when the last one was posted. If you want more examples your generation would have an easier time understanding, just set your DU google to "limp dick". There is no "makes things even" when it comes to sexism. Most people of my generation learned by grammar school two wrongs don't make a right. I hope it's the same for yours.

Perhaps your omnipotent crystal ball is just clearer than mine, but I just don't see every single post on DU out of thousands that are posted daily. I have spoken up about sexism on DU regardless of whether your crystal ball revealed it to you or not and if the post happened exactly as you describe, I most certainly would have in that instance also.

I never claimed the post in question made anything even. I'm sure you must think strawman gibberish is a brilliant rhetorical device, but I can assure you it only works on those too ignorant not to see right through it. Otherwise it tends to have the reverse effect once it's called out for exactly what it is. You might want to think about bringing your A game as this is entirely too easy.

A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #74)

Wed May 28, 2014, 07:56 AM

85. So something from last march has you riled up during this particular tragedy.

 

Work on that.
I do not need your lecture. Ever.

You have no real point except to whine about how nobody is worried about misandry. Guess what?
I don't see misandry all day every day. But i do see racism and misogyny everyday. So i'll worry about that while you save men from being laughed at. Because thats the real problem you have to focus on.
I think it is funny how every time misogyny comes up, some dude has to butt in to complain about misandry. It's almost like you don't want misogyny discussed at all and are trying to derail the conversation and make us talk about what you want to talk about because you think your subject is way more important. Or that men are more important than women.

Never bother to try to lecture me again. I do not go for that type of stuff. Save it for your friends and family. If i want a man i don't know to give me a lecture, i'll watch cosmos.

Never think you are the smartest person in the room. You will always be wrong.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #85)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:18 AM

87. Actually I could give a day old dog shit about what happened last March

But if you are going to cite examples of misogyny on DU that I'm evidently not doing enough about, then at least try not to get wrapped around the axle when someone points out that far worse gets a free pass when it goes the other direction. I have one standard for defining sexism. If you have two, then please don't pretend you are the least bit concerned about equality because you've just proved you aren't.

Dissent is part and parcel to substantive discussion. If you can't stand to have your ideas challenged, then either don't throw them out there for public consumption, use the DU tools at your disposal to filter them, or go to the echo chamber. "derail the conversation" is nothing more than codespeak for shut the fuck up and let me educate you which looks a lot more like finger wagging than anything you described.

Just sayin'

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #87)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:32 AM

92. I asked you to mind your business and lecture someone else.

 

Do you understand the words that you are reading?

I said, ' If i need a man i don't know to lecture me, i'll watch Cosmos.'

I really did mean it. No means no, as in, no i will not continue this stupid conversation about nothing with you. You are trying to make this about you and your feelings and thoughts and you want me to care about that and ignore my own feelings and thoughts. I told you that i am not interested in your subject change. I want to discuss misogyny.

If you want to discuss misandry, go find a friend to discuss that with becsuse i am simply not interested at this time. You shouldn't be so overbearing an forceful when trying to change the subject. I can see right through that kinda stuff because i have a fully operational bs meter.
Misandry is not the subject not matter how much you want it to be. Your tactics are obvious.
I hope you are done now.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #92)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:41 AM

94. Discuss whatever you want

Reply or don't reply to whatever you want. I'll do the same. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #94)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:44 AM

95. Blah blah blah, misandry, blah blah.

 

Blah.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #95)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:46 AM

98. Brilliant!

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #98)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:48 AM

99. Is that you? You are cute!

 

I figured that was a part of the problem. Catch up with me in a few years and we'll have the talk if you need it. When you are a bit older.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #99)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:00 AM

111. Wow! A clever repackaging of the old worn out, "I'm rubber, you're glue" line

I never saw that one coming. You got me there.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #111)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:13 AM

116. Wahh!! Misandry!! Blah, blah, blah!!!

 

Two wrongs, blah, misandry!! Men hurt! Women happy! Poor us mens!! Women vote more!! Misandry!!

BUT WHAT ABOUT MEEEE!!! WHAT ABOUT MENS!!! BOSSY WOMEN TALKING ABOUT MISOGYNY!! MUST. STOP.THE.WOMEN.




?w=549

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Response to bravenak (Reply #116)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:19 AM

120. .

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Response to bravenak (Reply #116)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:29 AM

134. Misandry?



Oh lord, what will the term be for when white/str8t/protestant males have to compete on an even playing field with Women and Gay people and Brown people and they cant, what will they call that?

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Response to randys1 (Reply #134)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:36 AM

142. Slavery.

 

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Response to randys1 (Reply #134)

Wed May 28, 2014, 04:20 PM

308. They can't so they whine...

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Response to bravenak (Reply #116)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:36 AM

141. I'm am posting in adoration.

Beautiful.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #141)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:47 AM

151. Thank you.

 

This guy, eh?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #151)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:54 AM

159. Are those your babies?

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Response to randys1 (Reply #159)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:59 AM

163. Yeah, a few years ago, i need to put a new one but they never stay still.

 

Can't fit them into one shot.
They're 4 and 8 now.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #116)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:20 PM

280. He's playing

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #280)

Wed May 28, 2014, 04:30 PM

310. ...

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #116)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:40 AM

401. No offense to dudes but those are hilarious

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Response to mackerel (Reply #401)

Thu May 29, 2014, 02:37 AM

412. Yeah i think so too.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #116)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:03 AM

466. One of the best damn posts ever!!!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #116)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:23 AM

502. Last one i swear.

 

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #87)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:59 AM

162. Can you please provide links to jury results

substantiating your claimthat "far worse gets a free pass."?

There is a lot of trash on DU that no one ever bothers to alert on because people have gotten tired of alerting and being told to put their big boy/girl pants on - or the various other condescending narratives which go along with leaving trash standing. So the fact that it is standing means nothing.

I do agree with you that it shouldn't be tolerated in either direction on DU. What I disagree with is your conclusion that the fact that you can still find examples that aren't hidden means that it is given a free pass. It is only given a free pass if "far worse" against men is regularly alerted on and allowed to remain unhidden - when similar comments made against women are hidden.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #162)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:56 PM

267. I'm not sure how one would even do that

But no, I don't agree that just because it isn't alerted on, then it means it wasn't given a free pass. The fact that far worse exists for whatever reason should be telling you something. For one thing it tells you that nobody cared about it enough to alert, and/or even if they did those alerts weren't successful. And there is no parity between sexism directed at women and sexism that gets directed at men. There just isn't. So one of those two reactions may be correct, but certainly not both.

If we can reduce Rush Limbaugh to his genitals, including making disparaging remarks on their operation, then we should be able to call Ann Coulter a word that rhymes with 4th and long.

Or

If we can't call Ann Coulter a word that rhymes with 4th and long, then we shouldn't be able to reduce Rush Limbaugh to his genitals.

I'm not the alert police and I'm not going to go around alerting on all this stuff. I'm just pointing out that for whatever reason, two different sets of community standards exist and this just isn't confined to DU although a progressive site like DU makes for an excellent example because if we can't get it right then there's little hope for anywhere else.

For those that want to go around cleaning up one side of this, I could really care less whether they do or not. When I'm on a jury I vote to hide it regardless of which direction it goes so that I'm not part of the problem. I don't participate or encourage either side of it here or anywhere else. I just don't see the point in only cleaning up one side of it because inevitably someone is going to point out that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and they will be right. As far as those who want to make half-fast "poor menz" arguments, I just wonder what they think they are accomplishing. Equality can and only will exist when there is parity and that should always be the goal. One set of standards applied equally in all things. If we can't manage that, then there will never be gender equality because we will always be trading privilege for privilege and using one to justify the other. Many feminists get this and I respect them for it. Some don't.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #87)

Wed May 28, 2014, 05:43 PM

320. You better watch it,

 

or your post will be censored and hidden for being insensitive, or you will be called names and shouted down. The class war is heating up. Divide and conquer isn't the preferred tactic of ruling classes for nothing. Rather than head for the castle, the peasants have aimed their torches and pitch forks at one another. What is most amazing is how easily working and middle class people can be turned against themselves and are too blinded by the managed perceptions of their masters to see it. I guess there are more authoritarian followers on the left than I thought. It makes me wonder if we really are too stupid to govern ourselves.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #320)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:02 PM

326. It's kinda like Churchill said...

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #74)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:01 PM

270. you didn't answer the question. why didn't you speak out against the post she's referring to?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #270)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:03 PM

271. Because I never saw it

Perhaps you spend your time reading every post on DU. I don't.

I think I did say had I seen it, I would have said something. Perhaps you missed that.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #271)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:05 PM

272. you didn't see it because you don't post in favor of women's rights

except to post about the victimization of males.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #272)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:49 PM

291. So you ask a question, completely ignore the answer, and then answer it for me

Always good to hear from someone who amuses themselves with the tap....tap....tap sound of their keyboard posting incoherent ramblings.

Please do keep them coming.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #291)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:47 PM

388. It is hurtful to belittle someone else.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #291)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:55 AM

405. Pot,

meet kettle!

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #270)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:49 PM

396. Did you?

How many Duers did? 10? 2O? 30? More?

How many DUers didn't? 10,000? 20,000?

It's a ridiculous accusation. I would assume any DUer would find that horrific. The asshole who made those attack posts was PPRed pretty quickly. That speaks for the community.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #74)

Wed May 28, 2014, 05:27 PM

316. Great response

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #74)

Wed May 28, 2014, 05:28 PM

317. Grear response

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Response to bravenak (Reply #71)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:37 AM

184. Is it possible to fight against all forms of discrimination at once?

 

Why does one have to choose which forms are "worthy" of advocating against and which are ignored?

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #184)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:53 AM

199. Because the thread is about misogyny.

 

It's the subject.
This is like when i talk about racism against black people and someone mentions Reginald Denny.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #199)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:10 PM

274. The position, as laid out above, was clearly not in relation to this thread only

 

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #274)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:06 PM

367. That's cool man.

 

I'm gonna just stick to misogyny on this thread.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #367)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:45 PM

387. Well, I can walk and chew gum at the same time

 

I had a female senior director making 250k a year. It was extremely frustrating because, as a manager two levels below her, I could run circles around her. However, I could accept it as she was promoted in a different time for our department and was probably a top performer then (we had serious issues - restatement, fines, etc., that led to huge turnover and investment in new talent).

What bugged me though was the she clearly favored a female manager that was a bottom performer. This manager got bonuses that were denied to the rest of the department. Thus, she was effectively stealing money from top performers and funneling it to this manager.

I am capable of saying that was wrong and an example of a female abusing her position of authority through sexism.

However, this in NO way claims that this is the norm. This in NO way says the bigger issue is not the sexism most/all women face on a daily basis.

It is just possible to identify all examples of sexism and condemn them.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #387)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:50 PM

389. But the thread is about misogyny.

 

You do realise that?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #389)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:00 PM

392. Conversations flow and can cover multiples topics

 

Is this your first visit to a message board?

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #392)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:10 PM

393. Is that a real question?

 

Really? This, what you are attempting to do is called 'derailment'. Have you ever heard of that word?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #393)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:04 PM

398. Bullshit

 

You have spent more time talking about what you refuse to discuss than if you would have just discussed it to begin with. You and I both know why that is.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #398)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:23 PM

399. It is because some whining man always tries to scream misandry!

 

Whenever we discuss misogyny.

You have a what about me complex.


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Response to bravenak (Reply #399)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:19 AM

402. Thanks for finally being honest

 

True Colors and all...

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #402)

Thu May 29, 2014, 02:03 AM

408. Oh, no, I think you've just shown

your own true colors. And she's right about you and others derailing with cries of "misandry". This site just will not allow full discussions of misogyny and STICKING to that topic. It just won't. For a progressive, liberal board, that is disgusting, dismaying and despicable.

And weren't you just on another thread earlier today yelling at people for not being charitable enough because "we're supposed to be the party of charity and caring". And didn't you ask in that same thread "is this DU or RU?" Well, lemme tell ya, you apparently don't see the blatant misogyny and patriarchy right here on DU, nor do you seem to care about that.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #408)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:00 AM

452. Go back and re-read what I said

 

Like I said, some of us are capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. An NO point did I say the larger issue was not the sexism women face on a daily basis. In fact, I explicitly said it IS.

However, I also said it is possible of calling out ALL types of sexism. Calling that derailment is bullshit and dishonest.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #452)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:13 PM

474. Oh, I'm perfectly capable of reading.

And nowhere did I read your answer to my question of why it is that threads meant to deal specifically with misogyny never stick to that but always get derailed, and largely by male posters. We are not talking about misandry, which isn't really a problem and nowhere near what so many "aggrieved" men claim it is, we are not talking about some mythical "all types of sexism". In fact, your response just proved the point of my question, the point that so many very, very frustrated women (and some men) here have been trying to make-that misogyny is not considered the same as racism, classism, etc., it is downgraded, lumped in with a bunch of other stuff, and threads dealing with it never, ever stick to that. Thank you for proving our point.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #474)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:21 PM

475. Apparently you need to brush up on your reading

 

Misandry was specifically brought up in the original post. I did NOT derail the thread by bringing something up that was not already brought up in the original post.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #402)

Thu May 29, 2014, 02:33 AM

411. I am brave enough to rarely lie.

 

Last edited Thu May 29, 2014, 09:04 AM - Edit history (1)

And i could care less what you think about me. Fiddle dee!
Bet you'll never see me troll a thread from the mens group and whine thats theyre not talking about what i want to talk about. Imagine that!
( couldn't care less , oops)

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Response to bravenak (Reply #411)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:16 AM

456. Good to know you only care about oppression that affects you

 

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #456)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:42 AM

460. There is no systematic oppression of males by females in our society.

 

Your problem is imaginary. You claim oppression. How are you oppressed by women? How common is this phenomena of male oppression by a female dominated society in America today?

This is why i do not discuss misandry. I am sure there are some women that hate men, there are many men who hate women, as evidenced by the large number of serial killers that were male and targeted women. This doesn't often happen in reverse, i can only name 1 female serial killer who targeted males, Eileen W.

Every woman i know has been raped or molested as a child or abused by a spouse or lover. That is why i focus on misogyny. When i was 7, a man kicked my neighbors door down and shoot her in front of my friend killing her while she was cooking dinner. He sat down and ate the food. Her crime? Dumping him for abuse. This happens all the time.

You can concentrate on whatever you please. I will do as i please. The fact that you are trying to push it so hard is evidence of the male centered culture we live in.
Pressuring people to change the subject to suit your concerns is rude and obnoxious. The polite thing to do when people tell you they are not interested in the subject you want to discuss is to move on and have that discussion with a willing partner. I am not willing. Please stop trying to force me to bend to your will. I will not.

I have never seen you care about the racism i deal with or the sexism i face on a daily basis. Yet now i should care about your issues over mine? I care as much about your problems as you care about my facing racism daily and sexism all my life.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #460)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:05 AM

467. I would not have addressed but for its inclusion in the OP

 

Again, I agree with 100% of what you said. The problem is that you think it is an issue of caring about one issue over another, or more accurately, only being able to care about a single issue. I would love a society where none of this shit occurred. And I completely agree the vast majority of our effort needs to be addressing the areas that affect the most people the most often. However, it does not mean I have to turn a blind eye to other issues.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #398)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:58 AM

406. And too many posters like you simply

refuse to actually discuss and STICK TO DISCUSSING misogyny in these threads, preferring to put down, belittle and disdain those of us who DO try to stick to it. Gee, now, I wonder why that could be? Hmmmm................

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #392)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:49 AM

403. Good Lord, do you not realize just

how condescending and patronizing and patriarchal that sounds? Do you really not see that? Or is it that you think we pretty little womenfolk just aren't capable of understanding and carrying on a conversation and shouldn't bother our pretty little heads about it? There are too many posts from men on here illustrating exactly what the problem really is.

Of course, there are women misogynists, too, which is almost worse.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #274)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:54 AM

404. WHY is it that, whenever there's a thread

on misogyny, it always gets derailed with this particular meme, that we can never talk about "just" misogyny? You don't see that on threads about racism, classism, homophobia, environmentalism, etc. Those threads tend to STICK to that subject. But not threads on sexism and misogyny. They ALWAYS get steered off track with this nonsensical nonsense. There are still way too many misogynists on here.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #404)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:03 AM

453. Show me those threads and I will talk about fighting ALL oppression

 

Sorry that you feel it is derailment if someone talks about fighting for all being being victimized. Especially when I readily admit that we need to focus the majority of our attention on women being victimized because that is clearly 99% of the problem.

And the stereotype is women are better at multi-tasking.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #453)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:46 AM

462. so, we focus on the women and womens issues, we just do not use the word woman, we use people, so

 

men do not feel bad

is that what you are saying?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #462)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:18 PM

472. I was just commenting on the OP

 

You would need to ask them what their issue is.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #472)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:55 PM

491. i commented off your words, was looking for your meaning.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #199)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:00 PM

301. Or the New Black Panther Party. eom.

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #301)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:07 PM

368. Yeah.

 

Those three dudes run Philly now.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #199)

Wed May 28, 2014, 04:27 PM

309. Wait wait...

I don't know if this man is one of those you think are misogynous or not, but I think if he says he didn't see the offensive post, he should be believed. I don't know about you but there are days I can't read another rant, so I don't read them, many, many of them.

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Response to abakan (Reply #309)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:08 PM

370. You mean Joe?

 

No. I have nothing against him. Just sticking to the sunject at hand.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #71)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:53 AM

200. THIS --> "You should start a foundation. Men against women laughing at men. You'll make money."

 

Sad but true.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #200)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:54 AM

201. Lots of money in that.

 

I would never have thought it, but it's been shown to be true.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #71)

Wed May 28, 2014, 04:40 PM

313. I remember when men outed themselves as rapists here and were allowed to stay

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #313)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:01 PM

364. That's disgusting.

 

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #313)

Thu May 29, 2014, 02:05 AM

409. There are also men here who call

child support "male enslavement" and who can't let a thread on DV pass without whining that no one cares at all about violence against men. And it's allowed.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #409)

Thu May 29, 2014, 02:48 AM

413. oh lord I missed those. Given that my nephew's wife is

waging psychological warfare against my nephew who fears her, I can understand that there are types on both sides. but not paying your child's support is not enslavement. its called being a responsible father.

Thanks Liberalhistorian. Interesting times we are living in, no?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #60)

Wed May 28, 2014, 07:49 AM

81. And then there are all of those baseless comments

about males doing crazy things because they are supposedly less-endowed.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #60)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:25 AM

89. Do you have a link to the suggestion that all males be castrated at puberty? nt

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #102)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:52 AM

104. Thank you - that's pretty obscure and it would have taken me a long time to find it on my own

I'm guessing that's not a majority view; i'd be surprised if that were even the posters actual point of view.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #104)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:17 AM

119. I'm pretty sure it is a minority view

I'm equally sure it was blatant misandry which shouldn't be tolerated anymore than misogyny should be tolerated, yet one is and other isn't. I'm just not sure how anyone can have tolerance for one and not the other without a serious case of the doublethink, regardless of how desperately some try to make excuses for the double standard. Equality can never exist without parity.

The person was even called on it within the thread, which they most certainly didn't back away from so I just don't find much reason to believe it wasn't their actual point of view. If we are to believe the only real differences between the genders is the plumbing, then it stands to reason that gender hate is going to exist on both ends of the spectrum. Hate is most certainly equal opportunity.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #119)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:21 AM

122. Possibly because males have much more power to impose their hang ups than females?

I don't care so much if someone is drunk in a bar, but if someone is drunk behind the wheels of a car it's a big deal. The worst thing most misandrists can do is make males feel slightly uncomfortable - misogynists can and do considerably more than that to their chosen target.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #122)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:43 AM

148. Possibly

If one limits themselves to intimate partner violence strictly in terms of male on female or female on male violence, then the impacts are certainly disparate, but they aren't zero on one side.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #122)

Wed May 28, 2014, 05:46 PM

321. "I don't care if someone is drunk in a bar..."

THAT is one brilliant analogy. Really, seriously brilliant.

I would never have thought of putting it that way in a million years.

You should post this as an OP of its own.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #119)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:43 AM

149. It was obviously sarcastic

It was in a post about anti-abortionists. People who think they should control women's bodies, and she was sarcastically suggesting controlling men's bodies. As in, people are fine with controlling women's reproducitve systems, but imagine if there were a suggestion to control men's reproductive systems.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #149)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:50 AM

155. Yes, I've heard that one before

Just yesterday in fact on a completely different subject.

Funny. Haha.

The problem is, it wouldn't be funny if the gender roles were reversed and someone floated the idea of cutting out women's sex organs at puberty, sarcasm or not. It would be promptly labeled as misogyny and the pitchforks and torches would come out. Please tell me I'm wrong here.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #155)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:58 AM

161. and maybe it is not meant to be funny. you know. ha ha. maybe it is meant for people to think

 

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #155)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:09 AM

168. Do you think sarcastic = necessarily funny

there are sarcastic comedians, and sarcasm can be used in jokes, but not everything sarcastic is intended to be funny. As Sea said above, it looks like it was intended to make people think - to make a point about how horrible trying to control women's reproductive systems is - as horrible as controlling men's bodies.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #168)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:12 PM

250. Thank you Captain Obvious

Now please tell me I'm wrong.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #250)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:12 PM

251. You're wrong

That was the explanation.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #251)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:19 PM

252. You appear to be not so masterfully dodging the issue, so here it is again

If someone on DU floated the idea of cutting out women's genitals at puberty, what do you think would be the reaction?

Are you honestly with a straight face trying to tell me it wouldn't be labeled as misogyny and face a 2 dozen thread meta-fest?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #252)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:23 PM

254. You are creating a false comparison

No one actually floated the idea of castrating boys. It was a sarcastic comment intended to show how wrong the issue it was compared to is - it is just as wrong to try to control a woman's reproductive system as it would be to control a men's. The comparison wouldn't work without the assumption that castrating boys at work is wrong. Therefore, it very clearly was not "floating the idea" of doing it.

If someone saw any issue A that was not taken seriously and considered any issue B that seemed similar and they knew WOULD be taken seriously, and made a sarcastic comment designed to show how wrong issue A is based on that comparison, it would be fine.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #254)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:09 PM

273. You are still dodging the question

Someone did float the idea of castrating boys. Now perhaps it was sarcastic and wasn't serious. Fine. So let me further refine my question.

If someone on DU floated the sarcastic idea of cutting out women's genitals at puberty, what do you think would be the reaction?

Are you honestly with a straight face trying to tell me it wouldn't be labeled as misogyny and face a 2 dozen thread meta-fest?

Please note than I'm not asking whether you think it would be fine or not. I'm asking you what do you think would be the reaction.

If you don't want to answer the question, then please at least be candid enough to say so.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #273)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:12 PM

275. It would probably depend on how it was done

If it was done similarly to the post you're objecting to, and if the comparison was valid (and that comparison is not perfect honestly), and if it didn't assume that men were an oppressed class - which is what I think the real issue is - then I don't think it would. But yeah there would be a lot of room to create offense, and depending on how it were done it might create a huge shitstorm.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #275)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:55 PM

293. I'm pretty sure if it were done like the post in question it would get the expected response

But I respect your answer, even if I can't completely agree with it. You might be right, I might be wrong. It was nothing more than a mental exercise.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #155)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:39 AM

188. But it's not sarcastic the other way...

Why isn't it sarcastic the other way? Because in a lot of cultures, female genital mutilation is actually happening. Can you show me a culture where male castration is the norm?

And what was being debated in that thread? The fact, not pretend, but fact that right here in America it is considered a part of reasonable debate to allow either individual men and/or the state, which is overwhelmingly govered by men, to take control over a woman's body once it has begun to house a potential future life.

The only control the state has chosen to exert over men and not women is forcing them to sign up for conscription service. As we have not had a draft since the seventies because middle class white men and their families revolted, even this is currently pretty meaningless.

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Response to Dems2002 (Reply #188)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:38 PM

341. There's lots of male genital mutilation going on right here!

 

It's called male circumcision. It's barbaric.

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Response to AAO (Reply #341)

Thu May 29, 2014, 02:11 AM

410. That's why I refused to have

my now-grown son circumcised at birth, despite intense medical and family pressure to do so; at that time, it was almost a default setting for newborn boys. I saw no reason whatsoever for it and there was no reason whatsoever for it. I've never, ever regretted it and my son thanks me for it. I'm glad to see that the rates are going down now.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #410)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:39 AM

444. I've got a good Circ story

 

My Father wasn't cut, so he did the same for me ( I thank him forever ). Then my brother was born and the doctors must have gotten in his ear about the latest study or whatnot so my brother got -sized. I think my brother has always been a little pissed that he was treated differently. Well, I grow up, get married, and have a son. I put my foot(long) down and made sure he didn't get mutilated. The joke turned out to be on me, though, when we found out my son got phimosis (a condition in males where the foreskin cannot be fully retracted over the glans penis) so he ended getting cut when he was about 4 years old (ouch!). He took it well, but I was sad that he lost his skin. People should be able to wait until they are at least old enough to make the decision by themselves.

I'm so happy I have my skin (so is the wife)...

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #410)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:43 AM

445. The only argument I usually hear is cleanliness.

 

I'm sorry, but what's the difference between washing your dick and washing any other part of the body (other than it feels better to wash your dick)?

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Response to gollygee (Reply #149)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:26 PM

257. So would "sarcastic" misogyny be equally tolerable? n/t

 

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #257)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:31 PM

285. well in response to genuine misandry I guess it could be: time to trot out Valerie Solanas again!

 

Go for it, she is as deserving a target as all those asshole who want to control women.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #104)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:37 AM

185. She said two lines down *in the same post* that it wasn't her point of view. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #185)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:59 AM

242. There you go interjecting facts again.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #104)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:24 PM

256. Of course it is obscure to a community dedicated to and invested in ignoring it. n/t

 

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #102)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:05 AM

166. Was it alerted on?

Left standing?

And the fact that no one in the thread called the poster on it doesn't mean much - the thread is probably getting more views from click-throughs from this thread than it originally had, considering there were all of 8 posts, by 6 members. Given the time of day the thread started (after midnight) and the lack of response, what the few members who participated in the thread said (or didn't say) really isn't much of a guide as to whether such comments are given a free pass.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #1)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:01 PM

269. it's not that misandry is nonexistent, it's that it's a fake issue

I mean, there are such things as people who hate men. Just as there are such things as people who make false accusations of rape, or claim their daddies abused them when they didn't. They are not nonexistent. It's just that these things are not the real problem we need to deal with. So if somebody dismisses any of the above issues, and someone responds with "but they exist!", the correct answer is "so what?" I mean, virgin births also exist, they're medically possible. That doesn't mean we have to debate the possibility every single time there's an unintended pregnancy. It's not sufficiently relevant. It's like bringing the chance of being struck by a meteor into a gun debate, or arguing that we have to stay in Afghanistan because it might be invaded by China.

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Response to paulkienitz (Reply #269)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:05 PM

365. Exactly.

 

Thats my issue too.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:18 AM

2. You are certainly not alone in that.

Thanks for posting this.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:34 AM

3. Misogyny is already not allowed

 

I've seen no misogyny here. Find me a post that is misogynistic (not including drive-by trolls that were MIRT).

Now what I have seen is many DUers that don't totally agree with your version of feminism. Vast majority of Americans do not want to be called a "feminist." But this doesn't automatically make those people a misogynist.

Heck, one poll I saw shows only 1/3rd of the Democratic party calls themselves a "feminist." Does that mean the other 2/3rds of the party is misogynist?

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #3)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:14 AM

8. I smell another witch hunt brewing.

And I think the objective of this OP to establish that they are hear and need to be dealt with.
Soon to be followed by words or phrases that identify them as one...then a full court press on the alert button until that word or phrase can no longer be used...then on to the next one.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #8)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:21 AM

32. You might be right, sadly. nt

 

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Response to zeemike (Reply #8)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:39 AM

36. you're right because "they" love to obfuscate the issues

just like they tried with the efforts to ban gmos in southern oregon. (claiming that hybrid plants are the same as dna genetically modified plants. it's one thing to splice a pear tree variety onto another pear tree and a whole 'nother thing to splice insecticide dna into the dna of a pear tree.)

so in this case - if one is not a feminist then one is a misogynist? got that? and "since only 1/3 of dems admit to being feminists, well, by gum, thens the rest of em's is hypocrites because they's misogynist like the rest of us".

smoke and mirrors.

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Response to hopemountain (Reply #36)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:58 AM

43. So Othering is great

 

As long as it's done to groups you despise.

How very radical, your mother must be so proud.

And laugh while you can(*) because the GMO anti-science woo is making us look just as bad as the anti-vaxxer nutbags.

(*) As a hint to the stupid and weak minded, this is an obvious reference to the classic movie Buckaroo Bonzai: Across the Eight Dimension. Interpret it as a threat if you are an irremediable dork.

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Response to hopemountain (Reply #36)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:57 AM

203. I considered myself a feminist at one time here.

After I saw the hate being ramped up to the point it was directed at even other women to the point it made one person ill, and even that was used against her .... I dumped that label. Labels have never impressed me much, but they seem to be all important here, so I call myself a humanist (and I do know that's not the proper usage for the term, but whatever.) Be empathetic to the struggles of all ... it helps everyone in the long run.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #203)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:38 PM

489. humanist ~ i like this better, too

and there has to be a way to be a humanist toward all living things. thank you, polly7

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Response to zeemike (Reply #8)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:54 AM

42. I'm sorry, does your discomfort require that we change the subject?

No, actually not.


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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #3)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:27 AM

12. O rly? How about this for misogyny:

 

4. But our radical feminist friends say the number of women who lie about rape is insignificant....


To me that is textbook misogyny, straight out of the forums frequented by people like Rodger. Any Democratic or Republican politician who said that the rarity of false rape reports was something concocted by 'radical feminists' would get Akinized instantly.

You obviously disagree, since you said it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024138451#post4

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:45 AM

16. "radical feminist friends"

that is one easilty-threatened guy

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:48 AM

19. I said it in reference to a story that was posted

 

...and I worded it poorly. It doesn't make me a misogynist to question why that story didnt bother people. The fact any innocent person is put in prison under any circumstance is a travesty of justice. When people spend decades behind bars and get released because they were really innocent, but then a certain group of people claim its "irrelevant"...that made me upset.

But that, by the way, is the only post I have ever had hidden since being on DU.

Yet several in a certain feminist group on here have had posts hidden countless times, a few have been in "time out" multiple times. Look at the banned list on that group....it's a mile long. Meanwhile the Mens Group has 4 people on it. Yet people who post in the men's group is out of touch with DU? Yet you are going to say I'm the troll that is not in sync with DU's principles when I've only ever had 1 post hidden out of almost 3,000 posts I have made? OK. Whatever.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #19)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:04 AM

27. How many regulars in the MRA group have

 

been banned by Skinner or EarlG as trolls?

4th law
Galileoreloaded
Loli phabay
Pab sungenis
Data suspect
Dokkie
The doctor
Zalatix
Taverner
Mistertrickster
Unrepentantliberal


Quite a collection of all-stars


The reason its banned list is short is because women at DU don't troll it the way SOME men troll the feminist groups.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #27)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:18 AM

31. How many regulars in the 2nd feminist group have been banned for being TERFs?

And what's your definition of "regulars"? One post, if that?

Some on your list have zero.

What a magnificent face plant.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #31)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:47 AM

40. 4thlaw was quite the champion for you guys.

 

As was galileoreloaded.
But kudos to the MRA group for having part of its FAQ draw a jury hide for helping promote the extreme misogynist myth (as in the Rodger mentality) that an "industry" is responsible for brainwashing all non-MRAs into thinning that domestic violence hurts women more than men, and that most domestic violence is women's fault.

This excerpt from an anti-woman hate group is pretty much exactly what the CW re domestic violence is in the MRA group at DU.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/domestic-violence-industry/feminism-needs-domestic-violence/

…therefore feminism perpetuates domestic violence. Feminism also invents fake domestic violence. This gives Feminism an excuse to exist.

It has been many years since feminists have fought for anything remotely resembling equality between the sexes. I know most ordinary feminists still think equality is the name of the game, but they are mistaken. All anyone has to do in order to see this, is look at what feminist policy makers, movers and shakers, and intellectual leaders (and I use that term rather loosely) have actually accomplished during the last two or three decades. No equality there. None.

This article is a very basic introduction to a single concept that most people will instantly reject on a visceral level: That feminist policies breed Domestic Violence while pretending to prevent it. I’m not going to quote lots of statistics and studies, or variables and technicalities. I will however, state that the Duluth Model* of domestic violence, on which virtually all DV policy and “education” is based, has been thoroughly debunked – it represents as common, the very least common type of Intimate Partner Violence (brutal male/innocent female.)**


Cf.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1114754#post2


1. It has been known for decades that domestic violence is largely reciprocal.

But there's an industry which depends on pretending that it isn't true.


The myth of a "domestic violence industry" is a staple of woman-hating creeps like Rodger and the extreme rightwing. Wanna know how many people took up domestic violence advocacy for the money? Answer is nobody ever.

According to the MRA group, men are more often victims than women, and when men do commit violence, it's because a woman provoked it.
I had posted a study by either the FBI or the DoJ (can't remember which) which determined that in the overwhelming majority of M/F DV instances, police were noting that the female was the party that escalated the confrontation to the physical arena. That may have been my first (and last) encounter with the OOPO* I wonder if I can still find it....















*Order of the Perpetually Offended ™



Oh, and the MRA group also stands with John Boehner against the entire Democratic Party on the issue of pay disparity.

Also fans of woman-hating pig filth rape cheerleader Warren Farrell.

So, the MRA group serves as much the same ideological foothold for anti-progressive sewage as does its doppelgänger, the NRA group.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #40)

Wed May 28, 2014, 04:10 AM

44. I just wanted to know how the guilt by association fallacy thing works

I mean if the MG has to accept responsibility for people who never even posted there, does the 2nd feminist group escape all culpability for TERFs who were cheerleaded while they were using that group as a springboard for their TERF hate all over DU, and who still pall around with current DUers even after they were banned?

Just curious.

It's mostly a rhetorical question anyway as I'm sure the answer is far too inconvienient for you to bear.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #44)

Wed May 28, 2014, 07:32 AM

78. I have no idea what a terf is, and I didn't cite anyone

 

who didn't receive a warm welcome from y'all. Hey, I even left off the domestic abuser who was warmly received by merely most of y'all because warren (and warren alone) actually decided that opposing DV was more important than man vs woman solidarity.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #78)

Wed May 28, 2014, 07:53 AM

82. A TERF is someone who's transphobic...

And there were a few of them who've been returning since then and being nuked for their persistence. Not to mention Iverglas, who's nuking message covered it all. So, smearing one group because of bigots who've been welcomed there is fraught with danger if yr not prepared to be just as critical of another group for the same thing with other bigots. My stance has always been that the whole guilt by association thing is lame, no matter if it's aimed at HoF or the Men's Group. btw, there's no MRA group at DU. Apart from being a former host and co-founder of HoF, I've posted every now and then in the Men's group, and know a few really nice blokes who post in there. There's stuff I don't like, but there's also stuff I don't like posted in other groups and forums at DU, so I think that MRA line was really lame...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #82)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:27 AM

90. When's the last time anyone in a DU feminist group

 

--any feminist group--was guilty of pushing transphobia?

Opposing the Democratic Party on pay equity and advocating for women to face discrimination in health insurance pricing by themselves indicate they are in MRAville, and are not progressives or allies of women. And there's a lot more than that. Long history of it, which is why men who are mainstream progressives don't post there.

When its members INSIST that it 's unfair to call MRA groups hate groups , that is a solid gold tell.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #90)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:40 AM

93. About two years ago when Feldspar and Iverglas were there. Why? Is there some time limit you apply?

Or is transphobia just not that important? I find both misogyny and transphobia revolting, but I'm a woman and a feminist, so that may have something to do with it. See, just like MRA's (and the Men's Group isn't the MRA group), transphobes aren't progressives or allies of women either.

Bullshit. I know of a few men at DU who are progressive who have posted in there. I've posted in there and I'm a female, feminist and I guess I'm a mainstream progressive.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #93)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:04 AM

165. Transphobia is bigotry, we do not disagree.

 

That group is what it is--and yes there is a reason it sees so little traffic and why its primary function is as a backlash to feminism.

Heck, I've posted in there once or twice, but the group is largely libertarian Republican (pro choice and fans of porn)in ideology when it comes to gender.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #165)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:11 AM

169. I enjoyed the hot celebrities thread...

I contributed Eddie Vedder and a younger Lou Barlow to that thread

Just on the prochoice and fans of porn thing - I'm prochoice, and while I find porn kind of boring most of the time coz it has no storyline, I'm opposed to any calls to ban it or to make out there's something wrong with people who watch mainstream porn. It doesn't make me a fan, but I'm not the other side of the coin either. But what I don't have anything in common with is libertarian Republicans...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #169)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:22 AM

177. Do you think you should pay more for

 

health insurance because you're a woman?

Do you side with Boehner and the Tea Party on the issue of pay disparity, or with President Obama and every feminist org in the USA?

Do you think that there's a domestic violence industry that distorts domestic violence law so that it discriminates against men?

Those are the types of things that makes them Republican on gender, just like the RKBA group are very much Republicans on guns and other issues.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #177)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:35 AM

180. No to all of those n/t

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #180)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:37 AM

181. I agree with you. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #181)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:38 AM

186. And on that note of agreement, I might head off for the night...

G'night!

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #186)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:40 AM

190. Good morning where I am.

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #165)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:16 PM

331. It takes a truckload of obtuseness to suggest that being anti-censorship is a "republican" anything.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #331)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:21 PM

332. Republicans have a libertarian wing.

 

It's not like Republicans don't look at porn.

P.S. "Porn is great" is different than "protect the first amendment"--

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #332)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:41 PM

342. ...sort of like how right wing cluckos like Meese, Reisman, or the AFA magically transmogrify into

progressive heroes unfairly 'persecuted for their faith' when the topic is smut?

If you want to suggest that any DU members are sooper-secret Republicans, knock yourself out.

However, "because they don't think porn is bad!" is a pretty fucking slim reed to base that accusation on.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #342)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:44 PM

344. If you had read more carefully, I noted that the folks in a certain

 

group are Republicans on gender because they align with Republicans on pay disparity, and blame feminists and women for men's wages falling.

And the rightwing troglodyte talking points on domestic violence and rape.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #344)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:45 PM

346. Well then stop lumping everyone together, because that has jack shit to do with being

anti-censorship on consenting adults fucking on camera.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #331)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:22 PM

333. you go thru your huge sighs... when we discuss issue. why? you say. WHY??? must we talk

 

about this AGAIN>.... in the best of whines. warren. that is not anti censorship. you and yours work very very hard at censoring.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #333)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:42 PM

343. Huh?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your post. Where did I say what?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #343)

Thu May 29, 2014, 04:33 AM

416. The only bit I got was 'you and yours work very very hard at censoring.'

If yr working hard at it, yr being subtle, as I haven't noticed yet. I know DU will have something to worry about when you start to advocate for the banning of popcorn icons, or even better, ignoring other forum hosts and locking OPs you don't like...

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #90)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:39 AM

144. See, those trolls banned from Men's Group were just speaking for themselves

But it's perfectly ok to smear an entire group for the actions of one. And claim equivalency to boot!

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #82)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:55 AM

107. Does that mean that "smearing" right wingers is fraught with danger, by that same logic?

"Both sides are the same!" false equivalency nonsense. If anyone fighting for equality had to constantly do what you suggest, we would never have made the progress we have. This decrying of "terfs" is for one thing vastly overstated, feuled by the obsession of one poster long ago banned. What isn't mentioned is the incident that started the chain of events that led to her banning started over an argument about banning a poster from the Feminist forum. That poster was eventually banned for misogyny. Those who objected to that poster's presence were right. But they're "terfs"

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Response to kcr (Reply #107)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:12 AM

115. I'm not sure what logic yr using. The Men's Group aren't right wingers...

'This decrying of 'terfs'" was DUers at the time speaking out against bigotry. In this case the bigotry was transphobia, and it was being peddled by a few trolls who took a liking to the feminist group. And I had a ringside seat to what went on back then, btw. It all kicked off with feldspar/sarabellum, fuelled by iverglas, but those ones weren't banned for misogyny. They were banned for being transphobic and in the latter's case, also trying to drive a wedge between DU feminists and the LGBT community.

I'm pro-Palestinian, and have experience of anti-semites attaching themselves to a cause near and dear to my heart. I see the transphobic types as similar to the anti-semites. Trying to minimise them or not speaking out against them isn't the way to go, imo. Even if they are embracing a good cause they need to be told to fuck off, because they're actually in the business of caring more about their own hatred and bigotry than the cause they've attached themselves to...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #115)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:23 AM

124. I'm using the same logic you are

What does it matter if they aren't right wing? First of all, I didn't say they were, I was demonstrating your logic. Can't criticize them or their message unless one's own "side" is pure? Nonsense in the same way it's perfectly ok for liberals to criticize right wing dogma. The same "both sides" derailment is often used there, too.

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Response to kcr (Reply #124)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:26 AM

128. No, yr not...

What yr saying is making no sense at all, apart from appearing to want to minimise the transphobia that happened. I don't give a shit who hates which group where at DU, and I'm not going to be a hypocrite and sit there and condemn one group for something that another group has had the same sort of thing happen to.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #128)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:29 AM

135. I'm doing no such thing

See, right there, that's the reason why the "terfs" claim is so inflated. Because I'm not going along with the smearing of a group over baseless facts. Because my response to the misogyny on DU isn't, "but, terfs"! But it seems you're all to willing for someone who doesn't give a shit about who hates whom.

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Response to kcr (Reply #135)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:32 AM

138. Huh? I was right there where the transphobia was happening...

It's not some baseless claim or anything. It happened, and people who spoke out against it weren't inflating anything.

Also, what smearing? You need to go back and read where I said I dislike the smearing and guilt by association stuff aimed at either group.

Here's what I said only a few posts back:

My stance has always been that the whole guilt by association thing is lame, no matter if it's aimed at HoF or the Men's Group.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #138)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:35 AM

139. Look at my start date. So was I.

The people who were speaking out against it were too often smearing good DUers, all because of one very unpopular DUer. I'm not defending that unpopular DUer. I'm speaking out against baseless accusations.

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Response to kcr (Reply #139)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:41 AM

145. What baseless accusations?

I saw a lot of DUers speaking out against it, and I didn't know close to half of them, so I don't know about personal gripes and stuff. What I did see was them speaking out against transphobia and I have absolutely no reason to doubt their motivation.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #145)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:42 AM

147. The claim about the presence of terfs in HOF and DU feminists

is baseless. You mean lots of DUers joined in the pileon? I'm not a bit surprised.

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Response to kcr (Reply #147)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:49 AM

153. That's not baseless. They definitely were there...

I don't remember them being in HoF, as all that went down in the feminists group and HoF hadn't been created yet.

Since when has speaking out against bigotry been a pileon?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #153)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:50 AM

156. Baseless.

HoF was created out of that mess. It's a pile-on when it's baseless. A good indication of how baseless it is? That one has to go all the way back to that incident to cite evidence of terfdom on DU.

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Response to kcr (Reply #156)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:06 AM

167. How can it be baseless when there were transphobic trolls there?

I was asked for an example here, and I gave one.

Though if I'd been asked to cite evidence of transphobia at DU, I wouldn't have to go too far back at all, and it was here in GD about Chelsea Manning.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #167)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:13 AM

170. Because there weren't transphobic trolls there

One DUer made homophobic statments. The pileon ensued, smearing the entire forum because "they weren't speaking out against it!" Funny how no one holds the Men's Forums to nearly the same standards. And there are well more than one post by one DUer in that case.

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Response to kcr (Reply #170)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:15 AM

171. Uh, Feldspar definitely was transphobic...

So was sarabellum. Iverglas also made transphobic as well as homophobic comments.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #171)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:16 AM

173. Oh, three? Well, then, never mind.

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Response to kcr (Reply #173)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:17 AM

174. What? n/t

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #174)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:20 AM

176. Huh?

Not getting why this is difficult. Your claim two others were also trans phobic doesn't make your case look any better. I'd say that your claim of telling those who complain about misogyny to back off, because, "terfs!" is baseless.

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Response to kcr (Reply #176)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:37 AM

182. I'm pretty positive you don't know what my case is...

I reposted what I said for you, and pointed out that I'd been asked a question, which I answered. Nowhere did I tell people who complain about misogyny to back off. I'd suggest you try to focus on what I've said in my posts rather than go with some alternate version that doesn't exist.

Goodnight...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #182)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:05 AM

211. I'm sorry, but it appeard to me that when you jumped to the defense of someone who was

claiming terfs make feminism just as bad And brought up these supposed "terfs" that make the feminists just as bad, that that is what you meant to do.

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Response to kcr (Reply #211)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:04 PM

295. Don't sweat it.....

I went around and around similarly regarding a comment that stated self-righteous types who see misogyny under every stone are the reason why misogyny won't be discussed by them. I pointed out that was an unfair characterization and piss poor reason to not speak about against misogyny when they see it and are in agreement. Then was accused of making personal attacks while they glossed over the type of attacks they were making in the first place, stating they NEVER do what they were accusing me of.

This subthread here seems par for the course. The denial of doing something while within the same post doing exactly what it is they are denying.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #295)

Thu May 29, 2014, 04:24 AM

415. I notice you didn't provide a link with yr creative interpretation of what happened...

I guess you were too busy rewriting what happened to have time to go get the link, so here it is...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025002630

You started an OP claiming to be asking a genuine question. So I gave you a genuine answer here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5005481

You proceeded to pepper-spray the response to me with a bunch of accusations and made it personal with all the references to 'you'. There were other DUers in that thread who pointed out to you that you were giving a good real-time example of why DUers like me do tend to avoid those threads.

Tell you what, Boston Bean. As yr so bent out of shape that I dare be critical of some of the frequent fliers on one 'side' in this one, I'll expand on what I said and give it the detail I gave to those on the other side. Not only are there a few folk who do see misogyny under every rock except when they or a member of their cliquey group are engaging in it, but there's also a few who arrive at DU, clock on, and ride into battle ready to lob bombs at the opposition, and also cut down everyone who doesn't agree with them 110% on everything. Plus there's also a few shit-stirrers in the mix as well.

Better?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #415)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:32 AM

420. No nothing else, except thanks for proving my point.

have a good one.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #420)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:39 AM

421. You had a point in all that?

Or are you just repeating what people were saying to you in that thread about you proving the point about what I'd said?

Have a lovely day!

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #421)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:40 AM

422. No, my own points. nt

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Response to kcr (Reply #211)

Wed May 28, 2014, 05:59 PM

325. Three people were wrong on the internet 2 years ago...

How can she be expected to just forgive and forget!

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Response to kcr (Reply #211)

Thu May 29, 2014, 04:10 AM

414. Yr wrong. Plus those transphobes weren't 'supposed terfs'

I didn't jump to the defence of anyone. There was a guilt by association tactic being used, and I pointed out that guilt by association can be applied to HoF, as well as the Men's Group. And it was applied very heavily to HoF back when I was a host, and I copped a lot of guilt by association type accusations at the time, so I know how it feels.

Here. As yr still confused about what I said and what I meant, here's my initial reply that covers it all. Go back. Read it till it starts to sink in, because I don't think it's that complicated or anything. If yr still confused, feel free to ask questions and we'll work together to try to clear up any confusion on yr part. You may find that's far more constructive than sitting there telling me I meant something I didn't...

A TERF is someone who's transphobic...

And there were a few of them who've been returning since then and being nuked for their persistence. Not to mention Iverglas, who's nuking message covered it all. So, smearing one group because of bigots who've been welcomed there is fraught with danger if yr not prepared to be just as critical of another group for the same thing with other bigots. My stance has always been that the whole guilt by association thing is lame, no matter if it's aimed at HoF or the Men's Group. btw, there's no MRA group at DU. Apart from being a former host and co-founder of HoF, I've posted every now and then in the Men's group, and know a few really nice blokes who post in there. There's stuff I don't like, but there's also stuff I don't like posted in other groups and forums at DU, so I think that MRA line was really lame...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5011098

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #78)

Wed May 28, 2014, 07:56 AM

86. How exactly do you give someone a "warm welcome" that never even crosses your threshold?

Do you even read what you write, FFS?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #86)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:16 PM

372. It's funny when you go back and look at the "favorite group"....

....of someone who was banned for misogyny was, and it rarely turns out to be the one the usual suspects would like you to think it is. It's even more hilarious when you find out they NEVER POSTED ONCE there. It's happened a lot.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #40)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:43 AM

191. Thank you. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #27)

Wed May 28, 2014, 04:23 AM

46. The MRA group?



Great way to make your point, geek.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #46)

Wed May 28, 2014, 07:27 AM

77. Tell us what % of the posts there are dedicated to:

 

-criticizing feminists
-promoting Republican talking points on pay equity
-false rape reports
-physical aggression by women towards men
-claiming that men suffer more from rape than do women
-complaining about anti-rape efforts and policies
-evangelizing on behalf of porn
-talking about how men are more often the victims of domestic violence than women
-how "rape culture" and the "patriarchy" and "objectification" are just loony ideas hatched by feminists
-how some random article PROVES
that Evo psych is right and thus discredits feminism
-how women in general are privileged vis a vis men

then tell us why the MRA label is inaccurate

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #77)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:51 AM

103. You tell us

You're the one applying asinine labels.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #77)

Wed May 28, 2014, 08:57 AM

108. those are actual issues. i do not think i have ever heard pb discuss actual issues.

 

he mostly stays with issues about people and du. that would be very very cool, after all these years, to actually hear pinto address that long list of issue. i am curious myself.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #108)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:20 AM

121. pinto and pintobean are different DUers. n/t

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Response to winter is coming (Reply #121)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:24 AM

126. i shorten everyones name winter. thanks for expressing the need for clarification. i will change

 

it to pb. pinto is the coolest of cool and cant see anyone getting confused.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #108)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:19 AM

175. Then you don't pay much attention.

You'd rather just repeat something about me that you heard from a friend, who heard it from a friend. I don't get involved in pointless long battles that do nothing but divide DU. Dividing DU seems to be a goal for many. I simply pointed out the ridiculous tactic of applying asinine labels to a group of DUers. A label that originated in hof and is used in an attempt to discredit anyone who disagrees with them.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #175)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:24 AM

178. LOL, that's all you do!

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Response to boston bean (Reply #178)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:47 AM

193. Listen to you

The host of hof/meta, who banned me from that group for having the nerve to defend myself after repeated call-outs.
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/125542939

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Response to pintobean (Reply #193)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:49 AM

195. You were blocked, not banned. nt

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Response to pintobean (Reply #175)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:27 AM

179. lol lol lol. omg. truly. the only posts i have read of yours is discussions of duers. that is it

 

jumping in and poking at the flames, ect....

i truly have never read one post from you actually discussing issues. ever. so, when i saw a list of issues i thought, how fun would it be to hear pb actually talk about something other than duers. that is all.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #179)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:40 AM

189. Bullshit sea

We use to be very friendly. You know better. Like many others, I went under the bus for the cause.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #189)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:50 AM

197. you cant "bullshit sea" on this. literally, i have only read posts of yours

 

that talk about other duers... or stoke the flame. or, in recent history anyway. i cannot claim all time. admittedly, my memory is not great. but. it is what it is. and i read lots of du. so that is saying something. now. that does not mean, nor imply you do not talk about any issues ever. it is only what i see.

i have not seen one discussion on issues from you, only duers.

that has nothing to do with when we got along. yes. we use to get along. sorry to see that end. again, is what it is.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #175)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:39 AM

223. So says the king of meta who never ventures

 

into actual policy discussions.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #77)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:46 AM

192. It's unmistakable.

And yet I was told I should have been PPRd for saying MRA talking points were posted here

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Response to redqueen (Reply #192)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:52 AM

198. Throw a rock in the air . . . nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #198)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:00 AM

207. Yep. I keep seeing the 'only a few' line, but they have their little coterie

who step in to back them up.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #192)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:59 AM

206. ya. well. the efforts or whatever to get you kicked off, is not yours alone. for sure. lol. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #206)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:01 AM

208. Of course not, but the effort to get me kicked off simply for pointing out that fact

should have set off alarm bells.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #208)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:21 AM

217. yes. sure. there have been so many obvious. but... it also makes it interesting if

 

we can hold on to the knowledge redqueen, just how fuggin far we have gotten in the last five years. when we look outside of du, we see all the young voices. all they say in brilliance. a whole new vision, of the awesome we can all be. those that let go, can ride the wave. those that are fearful, the wave will take 'em under.

now.... (this is too fuggin cool. i am brilliant)

i was a competitive swimmer for two decades. at 12 a licensed lifeguard and swim instructor. i know how to dive under the wave...

i will be a life jacket.

for all the dudes, surrounding me that do not quite have the knowledge, ability and support.... (i digressed again, didnt i)

du is a little of the whole. i am comfortable our ability to carve out some space. and have a comfortable, respectful space for all.... if they choose.

i am good with what i see, too.

in every situation there is a higher and lower. we choose.

adn in the lowest of low. there is always a higher and lower. we choose.

i focus on the higher, regardless.... it is our choice, after all.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #77)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:06 AM

212. comtec, the guy who originally proposed that group, was banned here twice

Once on DU2 for calling feminists "fire-breathers" and making all kinds of derogatory comments about women. I was the alerter on that post. Wish I'd saved a copy. His zombie didn't last here long either.

This, after he'd sworn up and down that group would monitor "real misogyny", like he was the fucking king of feminism.

That group has become just what many of us claimed that it would, and the FAQ at the top is the door that brings them in.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #212)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:24 AM

218. so much. so much to remember. and thank you for reminding me. redq and i were probably

 

their most vocal supporters. wanting men to have the right to have a place to be, discuss, think, grow and heal. cause we know. that is the only way we women will progress also. and we love men.

and i stood with comtec. i wonder if he is the one taunting me the c word in my pms? i wonder if he is the one creating rape porn scenarios for me to experience, for his own pleasure. i wonder which one...... amongst all.

starry. i had forgotten about him.

so many. hmmmm.

edit to say.... almost all the smart, knowin' what they are talking about feminists here on du were telling us why it would not work. yet, we wanted to believe.

but. those women were right. right on.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #218)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:34 AM

222. When issues were raised that were genuine, like male parenting

and they said that they didn't want to talk about them with feminists, like we parent in a different way, that was a huge red flag to me.

The fact that a bunch of guys said they would self-police misogyny was so absurd on its face, that I was sure the Admins would think twice about the whole idea. Obviously, I totally overestimated *that*, lol.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #222)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:41 AM

225. i do not think it was a matter of overestimating. i think it may be a learning curve

 

of a micro here on du, that is the developed macro of rl, political and otherwise, over the last decade.

you guys had it down. i did not know that much about all this. i was pretty much the peace... humanist, woman. just putting my toe into feminism. i had tons to learn. and tons yet to learn.

interesting. this is good to remember. so whoever started this. thanks.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #218)

Wed May 28, 2014, 05:50 PM

322. I know nothing about the events you describe.

But that was a beautiful post, all the same.

-Laelth

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Response to pintobean (Reply #46)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:50 AM

196. It is what it is. n/t

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #27)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:33 PM

258. You should stop your slanders. DU doesn't have an "MRA group."

 

It has a Men's Group.

And not a very active one at that, at least last time I looked.

Your efforts to divide this place and slander everyone who doesn't agree with you are odious.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #258)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:00 PM

268. how are their opposition to pay equity measures, conspiracy theories about domestic

 

violence laws, weird concern with false rape cases, etc?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/111412900
http://www.democraticunderground.com/111412796
http://www.democraticunderground.com/111412474
http://www.democraticunderground.com/111412305
http://www.democraticunderground.com/111412275

Not to mention the constant "get a load of this/these evil feminists" posts.

Do they touch on issues like parenting, the problematic role of hyper/toxic masculinity and how it harms men, or do they constantly complain about how women/feminists treat men and how women have it better than men?

And, yeah, majority of posters on this site are men, yet it's one of the slowest traffic groups here. which is actually reassuring

Though my favorite may be the whining about the fact that there's no International Men's Day but there is an International Women's Day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/111413299
You can't make this shit up.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #27)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:48 PM

263. There is no fucking MRA group here.

Why do you and others make this crap up? You seem to love to instigate hate. That says a whole hell of a lot, whether you realize it or not.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #263)

Thu May 29, 2014, 04:44 AM

417. Of course there is

or at least, there is a group with members whose views are functionally indistinguishable from those of MRAs. Sorry, but when the hosts of a specific group feel the need to poke into pretty much every single thread in GD on women's issues, and bleat about "misandry" and "but more women vote than men!" and "but women are less likely to be ticketed/arrested!" and "but more women graduate from college!" and "but what about male victims of domestic violence?" and "but women don't have to register for selective service!" et cetera ad nauseam (all of which are, by the way, MRA talking points)...I'm prepared to say that if it quacks like a duck, it probably isn't a platypus.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #417)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:44 AM

423. No, there's not.

MRA's are hate groups. There's absolutely no disputing that. So yr saying that Skinner would create a hate group? And not only that, the hosts of HoF and the Feminists group would have worked with a hate group on a truce between the members of each group? Yr saying that feminists would post in a hate group?

I dunno. If the existence of any DU group gets up yr nose that much, either hide it or go complain to Skinner about it...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #423)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:47 AM

424. Sorry, but...

I don't think that anyone rational can look at the arguments advanced with tiresome regularity by certain members of that group (not all of them, but enough)...arguments that are basically indistinguishable from MRA talking points....and think that the label "MRA" is unreasonable.

If they don't want to be thought of as MRAs then they shouldn't be using their arguments. It's really that simple.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #424)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:52 AM

425. Why did you just ignore every question I asked you?

I see arguments I find revolting and not the slightest bit progressive pushed with tiresome regularity by certain members of other groups, but I don't fling around wild accusations of those DU groups being hate groups or RWers. That's because rational people don't go using a big, sloppy broadbrush to attack an entire group based on what a few say or do.

Like I said, if you think Skinner created a hate group at DU, go over to ATA and inform him of that and ask him to delete it.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #425)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:00 AM

428. Oh, no, rational people such as yourself

only use broad brush sweeping general accusations against those discussing misogyny.

ie, find misogyny under every stone.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #428)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:16 AM

433. Huh? Yr not making any sense at all now...

Do you understand what a broad brush generalisation is? I don't think you do. What an absolutely ugly accusation to throw at me, knowing that I'm a feminist who'd never broad-brush feminists. Here's a link to what I actually said in the context it was said in. You've been reminded of this a few times now, but appear to prefer to imply that I'm some supporter of misogyny because I dare not agree 100% on everything a few DUers say, and that I actually find one or two rather irksome and don't think they get a free pass because they're feminists...

So, here it is again. I guess I'd better bookmark it as I get a feeling this won't be the last time you try this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5017178

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #433)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:21 AM

435. Again denying that you make any broad brush generalizations.

Ok, that has been my issue with your posting, I guess I am just imagining when you say things like many on DU see misogyny under every stone. That's not a broad brush generalization? Ok, if you say so.

I'm not broad brushing you, I am speaking to you about your words. I don't believe you are a supporter of misogyny. Where did I ever say that. A link to that would be great. My postings to you have been about since you are a feminist why won't you speak out against misogyny when you see it. And all I get back is that because of other people on this board you don't like. That's a summary and pretty much on target, if people go and read the link you provide, they will see it too.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #435)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:35 AM

441. Yes, yr imagining that I said that...

I guess I am just imagining when you say things like many on DU see misogyny under every stone.


Imagine that. You are imagining that. And that's giving you a very diminishing benefit of the doubt and assuming you still haven't bothered to read what I've said.

I said:

'Because it usually turns into poo-flinging competitions between self-righteous types who see misogyny under every stone and who rarely if ever talk about anything else, and a mixture of shit-stirrers, blokes who've taken the 'men are (insert really horrible trait some men have here)' personally as an attack on themselves, and a few misogynists. Not exactly the environment for any sort of constructive discussion.'


which you got all bent out of shape over, so I expanded to:

'Tell you what, Boston Bean. As yr so bent out of shape that I dare be critical of some of the frequent fliers on one 'side' in this one, I'll expand on what I said and give it the detail I gave to those on the other side. Not only are there a few folk who do see misogyny under every rock except when they or a member of their cliquey group are engaging in it, but there's also a few who arrive at DU, clock on, and ride into battle ready to lob bombs at the opposition, and also cut down everyone who doesn't agree with them 110% on everything. Plus there's also a few shit-stirrers in the mix as well.


That's NOT broadbrushing an entire group. I'm not saying it about most or all feminists. I'm saying there's a small band on either side who exhibit the behaviour I described. You don't have to like it, but there's no need for you to follow me around misrepresenting what I said...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #441)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:38 AM

443. We discussed this in the other thread. I made it clear to you I was responding

to this:

'Because it usually turns into poo-flinging competitions between self-righteous types who see misogyny under every stone and who rarely if ever talk about anything else, and a mixture of shit-stirrers


Yet you never said that, ok. And that is not a broad brush generalization.... ooookkkkaaaaayyyy....

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Response to boston bean (Reply #443)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:54 AM

449. I did NOT say many at all. I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt any more...

Yr deliberately trying to accuse me of things I never said. Not cool or genuine at all, imo...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #441)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:58 AM

451. Oh, but this not many are enough of a road block

to keep you from discussing misogyny when you see it.

Ok, mea culpa on saying many. I figured if it was such a small inconsequential group of persons, it wouldn't be an issue for you.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #451)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:08 AM

454. Yes, they are...

It doesn't take many at all to make an environment just a bit toxic and unwelcoming. While I don't react well to demands that people *must* discuss an issue, I've found it is possible every now and again to have an exchange with someone who's there for genuine discussion. I do that because I want to, not because someone's telling people that they shouldn't be silent and all that stuff...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #454)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:17 AM

457. Well, then, if you take your own advice

and went to admin, as you suggest everyone else does who finds posters who make an environment toxic and unwelcoming.

You are in this thread discussing toxic environments on DU. Someone else does the same thing and the advice is to take it to admin.

I.don't.get.it.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #457)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:21 AM

458. No. You...don't....get....it....

My advice was to someone who was complaining about a DU group being an MRA group. MRA groups are hate groups, which is why I suggested they approach Skinner. On the other hand, the irksome and annoying few I described are irksome and annoying, not bigoted. See the difference? I don't tend to go whining to Skinner about things that annoy me in GD, and I don't intend to start...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #458)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:52 AM

463. Oh, ok, so when you see someone calling out HoF we can expect these

same types of posts from you. I look forward to it!

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Response to boston bean (Reply #463)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:58 AM

464. I've said exactly the same thing about people broadbrushing HoF...

...many times in the past, and said in this thread that I detested the broadbrushing aimed at HoF. Having missed those, I'm not holding out much hope you'll see any similar future posts.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #464)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:59 AM

465. So, if we keep it on a more personal DUER level versus

leaving it vague, that is the right thing to do.

I don't know if I will follow that advice. Likely to get many a hidden posts.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #465)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:14 AM

468. Are you replying to the wrong post? That's got nothing to do with the post you replied to...

Though that post has inspired me to rush off to ATA and ask Skinner to create a new group called 'Give Ourselves Advice And Swiftly Reject It In The Same Post'. It'll be a winner!

And with that, the equivalent of an ad break for the Bold & The Beautiful has arrived, so it's time for me to depart for the evening...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #425)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:00 AM

429. Except I didn't say "hate group".

You said that. I'll thank you to not put words into my mouth.

What I said is that certain members of that group (including the hosts of that group) routinely respond to threads on women's issues with MRA talking points. (Which they in fact do; it's indisputable and anyone who wants to can easily find those threads.)

And it's rather telling that there are many people who have the same perception I do; I wouldn't think that was merely a coincidence. (I don't really have any interest in trying to shut down any particular group, though; if nothing else it's kind of useful to be able to tell where certain people are coming from.)

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #429)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:21 AM

434. But MRA's *are* hate groups...

There's no denying that. In response to Polly saying 'There is no fucking MRA group here.', you replied with 'Of course there is'. So I'm not putting words in yr mouth.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #434)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:22 AM

436. Would you prefer if I'd said...

"there is a group with many members who frequently use MRA talking points", then? Same thing, isn't it?

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #436)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:29 AM

439. Or even better. There are some DUers who use MRA talking points...

I wouldn't have a problem with that...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #439)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:30 AM

440. Except...

those DUers who use MRA talking points? Include both of the hosts of the group in question. So I don't especially think that's an unfair characterisation, at all.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #434)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:23 AM

437. Since we agree MRA's are hate groups, and someone is using the same arguments

and has the same ideology as them, but denies being an MRA, that makes them not as hateful?

Please explain.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #423)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:55 AM

427. Yeah, feminists tried a truce with them, that proves what in your mind?

In my mind, we tried to be reasonable so they would leave us the fuck alone.

That in no way has any bearing on the fact that MRA talking points are posted there, that is UNDENIABLE. That has never been a question to any person who posts in HoF. Hell, we were under such fire from them, and their destructive tactics that we tried to be adults, it didn't fucking work. To use that attempt at trying to live in under the same roof with them as a sign that HoF agrees with that bullshit is beyond the fucking pale.

I'm going to barf. And remember you quit hosting early on, you had absolutely nothing to do with the truce. So, your words here mean very little.


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Response to boston bean (Reply #427)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:07 AM

430. My understanding was it was a three-way truce...

Where did I say I had anything to do with the truce? I didn't, so I've got no idea what yr going on about. I wasn't aware that it was only the hosts of the three groups that knew about the truce. Learn something new every day!

I dunno, BB. Maybe if you bothered reading what I said in the post yr replying to, you'd get what that proves. Rather than carrying on with some lame 'I'm going to barf' nonsense because you've changed from hating how DUers (and it was a lot of DUers, many of whom have never posted in the Men's Group) attacked HoF to now being all on board doing the exact same thing to another group that was done to ours.

Yeah, coz there was and never is any nasty meta-style attacks coming from one or two participants in HoF, right? Strange, that's not how I remember it.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #430)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:14 AM

432. What is going on Violet?

You posted this:

423. No, there's not.


MRA's are hate groups. There's absolutely no disputing that. So yr saying that Skinner would create a hate group? And not only that, the hosts of HoF and the Feminists group would have worked with a hate group on a truce between the members of each group? Yr saying that feminists would post in a hate group?

I dunno. If the existence of any DU group gets up yr nose that much, either hide it or go complain to Skinner about it...


There was no three way truce. Again proving you know nothing of which you speak. I didn't say you knew, I said you wouldn't know and would not know the reasons for it, you were not involved!

And also, if any existence of any Duers on DU gets up your nose, you know those ones who find misogyny under every stone, you can either hide it or go to skinner about it.

One thing you are honest about, you don't discuss misogyny, I agree wholeheartedly with that. You discuss the people discussing misogyny quite a bit.


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Response to boston bean (Reply #432)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:27 AM

438. What's going on is you seem to be following me round this thread yelling at me...

And from what I can work out it's because yr pissed off about me daring to answer a supposedly genuine question you asked in an OP from the other day. Don't ask me. I think it's plain weird, to be honest.

I'm not quite sure what yr point is, if you actually have one. Maybe it's another one of those secret ones known only to yrself?

Thanks for the advice on what to do if anyone ever gets up my nose. No-one has as yet, as I tend to avoid ATA, hiding threads, putting people on ignore, and all that sort of stuff, but if I ever become overly sensitive I'll keep yr sage advice in mind.

There's quite a few issues I tend to avoid at DU because of the shit-fight factor. But you'd be mistaken if you don't think I ever discuss those issues. You may not have noticed, that's all, as I tend to stick to discussing them with people who look like they're in it for actual discussion and not to yell at other people...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #438)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:36 AM

442. I presume you think I'm not one of those people you could have a discussion with. Ok.

I'm not pissed about anything. I might have used a couple of exclamation points, but that doesn't mean I'm pissed.

You say something, and someone responds and they are pissed at you? No, they are not.

You say something and someone gives your own advice back to you and you don't think that advice you give to others it pertains to you.

You say you avoid the shit fight factor, but here you are talking about groups and what not.

This is becoming laughable, Violet.



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Response to boston bean (Reply #442)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:46 AM

446. You presumed correctly in this one instance...

Just a bit of advice here. When trying to radiate an aura of not being pissed off about something I said in another thread, it's probably a good idea not to arrive in this thread towing that thread behind you, while forgetting to bring the link along for the ride. And while I can't be sure, implying in yr posts that I support misogyny in any way when you know very well I don't, could be seen as a whole bunch of things, but I'd be suspecting in a bit of a tizz.

Okay, this bit doesn't make sense. What are you talking about?

You say something and someone gives your own advice back to you and you don't think that advice you give to others it pertains to you.


Also, if you remember, I said I've retired from my former DU2 I/P forum Queen Of The Poo-Flinging role. Which means while I do try to avoid it most of the time, there's times when I can't help getting dragged back in. Ever had those times when yr home from work sick and you haven't watched the Bold & The Beautiful for over a year coz you decided it was boring shit? But suddenly there it is on the telly again, and without even realising it yr dragged into the whole thing again briefly before an ad happens and you think to yrself 'Do I really care enough to keep watching and find out how many times Brooke and Ridge have been married and divorced since I last watched it?' That's the poo-fling thread feeling...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #423)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:52 AM

448. The fact is the arguments are identical to those groups

Which anyone can tell by going to the MRA reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/ The exact same articles posted there turn up in that group as well as in GD, and the exact same arguments. So really any distinction you want to claim is irrelevant when the content is the same.

Have you ever visited the MRA reddit, A Voice for Men, or any of the other MRA sites? If so, how can you claim that there is some distinction? If you haven't visited them, why do feel compelled to deny something you haven't looked into? How do you suppose the same articles featured on that MRA reddit magically appear on DU? How is it that certain members here magically channel the identical arguments voiced on those MRA sites?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #448)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:56 AM

450. No, I haven't bee to that reddit site...

I have posted a few times in the Men's Group, though, but I was really only there for Warren's super popular hot celebs thread coz I had a few important additions to add to it...

on edit about reddit: I will go and have a read of the link you gave me. The only time I've seen reddit before was back when Gordon Ramsay encountered an absolute nutjob of a restaurant owner and I followed some links from DU to reddit..

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #450)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:11 AM

455. Well, it would seem to me

that in order to make such a blanket denial, one would have to know the content of MRA groups. Since you don't know what is posted on MRA sites, your declaration is without foundation.

Understand this: Cries of misandry are about hostility to feminism. They are no different from pretending whites face greater racism than blacks. They come from the same impulse to stop the advance of the subaltern toward equality and are about bemoaning their once absolute privilege that they see as so natural that any mobility by women is viewed as an attack on men.

You'll note they decry the fact that girls get higher grades in school and have higher admittance rates in college. That is a crisis because they believe there should be not even a single area in which women outperform men. Female academic achievement subverts what they see as the natural order where men are ALWAYS superior.

They point to the simple biological fact that women live longer as evidence of female "privilege," and the higher rates of male deaths from suicide and war as examples of male oppression, with absolutely no attention to the fact that biology is not an indicator of social status. They also ignore the fact that male dominated governments start and perpetuate wars, and that male politicians ensure unfettered access to the guns with which men use to kill themselves. Instead, what men do to themselves is used as evidence of male oppression. The argument has no logic, and it is a reactionary attempt to try to place misandry and misogyny on the same level. There are not, no more than whites whining about their persecution is on the same level as racism against blacks.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #455)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:23 AM

459. But I *do* understand what you said about misandry and MRA critters...

I'm in total agreement with you on what you said there.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #455)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:52 AM

470. very well stated.

good to see you back, Baines.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #417)


Response to geek tragedy (Reply #27)

Wed May 28, 2014, 06:36 PM

338. You should start an OP, Titled I like to Grave Dance

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #338)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:16 PM

378. Or maybe it should be called: "These women hating trolls should never have been on a liberal site,

and many of them were here for a long, long time."

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:04 AM

26. Thanks for sharing

Thanks for tracking that link down. I definitely know there are many examples such as the one you shared, but I am less familiar with the previous threads.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #3)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:48 AM

194. the definition has changed so much that how people answer the question is meaningless.

The definition of feminist has been distorted by things like Rush Limbaugh using the word 'feminazis' and making it sound like it's a synonym. It is impossible to draw any coherent conclusion from the response to "Are you a feminist." Ask the question "Do you believe in equal pay for equal work?" and the people who shrink away from the label feminist will say, surprised, "Of course."

The people who would answer No are misogynists.

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Response to Demit (Reply #194)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:13 AM

215. thank you for bringing this up. and let me say. i did not call me a feminist until about a year ago

 

and this is why.

i have always spoken out for womens issue. well, duh. i have also always spoken out for every underdog issue there has ever been in all of my lifetime. since a kid.

it has been who i am all my life. and i never called myself a feminist. for different reasons. but mostly, cause i did not think had earned the right to wear the title.

with the repugs. with society as a whole. the utter humiliation, shame, degradation, submission of women in porn, ect..... it has been the last decade but mostly the last 5 yrs of the aggressive, ugly ass, in our face, lefting a middle finger to women, saying out loud, HATE of women.

literally fuckin HATE.

and i am raising two boys.

being respectful of their being... they get to love every single piece of their boys, as i get to love every bit of my woman.

(i am digressing, i will get to the bottomline)

though i lived it, i spoke out to it, i taught my boys in it, i NEVER called myself a feminist.

i respect those women so. they are so smart. put in the time. put in the work. got educated. i did not. i just lived it.

i NEVER thought i earned or deserved the title of feminist. even when everyone was calling me one. as if they were insulting me. and i would take self away from the title. not cause they shamed me. but, i didnt deserve it

i wanted to say that last night when i read davids post.

the title feminist has never been taken in majority. and it never will. a feminist.... is me. and so many other women and young women.... oh they are bold, strong, loud (and they do not apologize) and they will not do it nicely.

we gotta get comfortable in the skin of it. a lot of our young are.

i do call myself a feminist now, though. it feels good on me. it LOOKS good on me. dontcha think? lol. i do.

different perspectives.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #215)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:54 AM

236. I turned 18 in 1970, so was growing up in what they call the second wave of feminism.

Though they didn't call it that then. I just knew I wanted to do—to be able to do—what men were allowed to do. Why should I take some demure back seat to what men did? Why should I be some kind of second fiddle? Why should I pretend to be inept at something so it wouldn't make a man feel bad that I outshone him? Why does he get to make all the decisions? Why should I be the one to clean the house & do the laundry? I remember when my husband & I started looking for a house, we were sitting with one real estate agent (female), and every time I asked her a question she would answer my husband.

It was a time of being patronized, and condescended to. It might not be how it is now, so that today's young women think everything has changed, changed permanently, and there's no need for feminism, but there's a bad undercurrent. Not that there wasn't a backlash then, but the backlash today is much darker and more sinister. This business of men saying overtly that they have a right to sex and that women owe it to them is scary. The men on this board scrambling to rationalize that thinking, trying to derail the topic of misogyny by making some big deal of 'misandry'—as if men don't still enjoy a balance of power in this world! As if the implications could ever be equivalent! —is mind-boggling. And scary. Definitely scary.

I've aged out of the demographic where I have to be worried about being killed by a woman-hating man—I think—but I do fear for younger women who do have to worry. Things are worsening.


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Response to Demit (Reply #236)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:59 AM

240. and i was right in that time end of 70s, beginning of 80s when i had the most freedom ever, with the

 

guys my age optimistic and open. i did not experience the oppression you did. we were basking in the out loud, .... progression. i watched us regress.

interesting.

i was playing in other words. i was reaping the rewards. lol. in calif. and reno

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #3)

Wed May 28, 2014, 11:58 AM

239. do you meaned banned by mirt or drive by trolls are on mirt?

MIRT is the malicious intruder removal team and I wanted to be sure of what you are saying. thanks

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Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Wed May 28, 2014, 01:56 AM

4. Agreed and appalled

So, I'm not a frequent poster on this site. But the reason my name is Dems2002 is because I joined Democratic Underground shortly after the 2000 election. My name reflects the fact that I was looking forward to taking back Congress in 2002.

Be that as it may, I have always been a fairly regular visitor if irregular poster. And while I chose a gender neutral username for the exact same reason Digby did the same, and there was definitely some sexism displayed every now and again, I never saw rampant misogyny on this board...until the past six months or so. (Maybe year, time definitely has had a tendency to fly lately.)

It's been rather stunning to me to see 'debates' about rape high up on the greatest threads. I'd love to know what has caused this change. Is it the new board system in comparison to the old? Is it the proliferation of sites like Reddit that didn't exist when this board first came about? An overconsumption of porn? Is it just a general coarsening of the culture as we all adopt worse behaviors supported by anonymity?

Personally, I'm not sure I buy the anonymity argument. I just keep reading too many stories of behavior that is deemed acceptable in male dominated work environments (like the gaming industry and tech), that I find just stunning in 2014.

As a first generation Title IX baby, textbooks that blatantly stated women were less intelligent than men were things I laughed about as a child. Now, it feels like the textbooks are gone, but the sentiment has roared back.

I can understand how this came about to a degree with rising levels of inequality. But I would have expected a site like DU to host men daring to do and be better. I admit to being disappointed.

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Response to Dems2002 (Reply #4)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:05 AM

6. Great post.

I have been around a while, too. A long time lurker before joining and getting more active several years ago. I have never been one to post a lot. But the change in tone has been noticible and has definitely gotten me to get more vocal myself. I do think we saw a real increase when DU3 and the Jury system were implemented.

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #6)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:14 AM

9. Ditto to the change making me more vocal

Yes, I have started to feel the need to jump in more on some of these threads. For myself, it's the over-the-top levels of disrespect, snideness and hostility that i classify as misogynist.

I am a strong woman more than capable of having a heated debate. You hurl facts and figures at me and I will hurl them right back. You start getting rude, demeaning and snide and questioning the intelligence of certain posters because you disagree, I'm going to call a spade a spade.

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #6)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:47 AM

18. It's why I decided to stop lurking and start posting

To add another voice, or at least support, to all the great DU members. I hate the change in tone, ugly.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #18)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:54 AM

23. I appreciate all three of you in this subthread, and the OP writer very much. Thanks for being here.

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #6)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:57 AM

24. Yes, to the jury system.

 

We know damned well not everyone here works 'in good faith'. The jury system has rottenized this place.

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Response to Dems2002 (Reply #4)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:08 AM

7. You should post more often, Dems2002.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #7)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:15 AM

11. Thanks for the encouragement

I may wade in a bit more here/there. At least when I have something to say.

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Response to Dems2002 (Reply #4)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:49 AM

21. juries was the change

On DU2, despite the rancor behind the scenes, borderline misogyny didn't survive. Maybe it did and I just don't remember.

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Response to Dems2002 (Reply #4)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:01 AM

25. no moderators, no rules, this is what you get. the minorities will always be at a disadvantage. and

 

i love your voice. and each woman in the subthread that is speaking out.

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Response to Dems2002 (Reply #4)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:27 AM

131. Great post

I live in a red state and I joined DU to be able to interact with left-leaning people. In many areas of conversation I am not disappointed, but the sexism here rivals what I see and hear from my rightwing neighbors. I hope it's just an indictment of the jury system and not an indication of a rightward swing in the democratic party.

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Response to A Little Weird (Reply #131)

Wed May 28, 2014, 10:15 AM

172. my son and i were having that very conversation just yesterday. that the misogyny on du surpasses...

 

by far, the sexism i experience with the repug men in my real life, sittin here in texas. and the difference between the sexism. just another learin moment for my son. to get the feel of the differences, even in hte name of liberal and progressive. and different levels of respect. ect....

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Response to Dems2002 (Reply #4)

Wed May 28, 2014, 09:18 PM

380. POST MORE!

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Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:03 AM

5. Countless posts on the same topic, like a dead horse beaten and dragged, reanimated, beaten again

dropped from an air plane, run over by a M1 tank, fermented in a swimming pool, dredged up, beaten again should not be tolerated on DU.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #5)

Wed May 28, 2014, 02:40 AM

14. Then stop whining about things that don't really exist - like "misandry."

And I'm addressing all of DU with that, not you personally.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #5)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:15 AM

30. It's called "Trash Thread."

 

Using it takes much less effort than coming into the thread to lecture the participants on how you are annoyed by thread.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #30)

Wed May 28, 2014, 03:43 AM

38. +1

If more people did that, imagine how much more peaceful it would be on this site...

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #38)

Wed May 28, 2014, 12:51 PM

265. Ouch A's Fan?

 

This season ticket holder hopes I never see you at a game.

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