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Mon May 19, 2014, 06:49 AM

I hate to sound like an old fogey

because Im really not, i graduated high school in the mid 80's, do the math, but i watched some of the American Billboard Awards last night and the state of music today is just awful.

I know every generation thinks their music was the best and the stuff before and after stinks but Im not really that devoted to 80's music that Im not still open to new music and appreciate when i hear something good.

'Let her go' passenger for example, catchy tune, dude has a crazy voice, good song.

So i dont know what happened to music but a majority of it put out today really is crap.

When i discovered music 'rappers delight' had just been released with blondies 'rapture' soon after. there was tower of power, earth wind and fire, the commodores, soul music, r&b.

Within a couple years music just exploded. Rap music hit the scene big. Punk rock. Alternative. Heavy metal. Hair bands. New Wave.

All different kinds of style, many just in their infancy. Any kind of music you liked you could find something happening within that genre and it was new and just being explored.

Rap music hasnt been rap music since the mid 90's. When biggy died I think original rap did too. I remember when there used to be rap music or soul/r&b, you could get either or. Rappers rapped and rarely had any kind of singing going on.

Now its just all blended together as 'hiphop'. Rarely will you find a rap song without some kind of singer on it.

Last night showed me just how far away those days are of good, new, original music just being discovered.


One of the acts was a white female in a cheerleading outfit rapping like she just came out the hood and is two steps ahead of getting busted by the cops for slanging crack and her other white female friend in a cheerleader outfit singing. All i could think of was 'wow'. when i was into rap it was majority african american males struggling with gangs, drugs, racism, police abuse, incarceration, and the daily grind of survival in the ghetto. And even through that most of the music was uplifting and talked about how to rise up out of all that depression and try to better yourself and enjoy life even for one night.

The next act I saw was one of the kardashian sisters, dumb as a post, couldnt even read the cue cards accurately, introducing 'NEW DIRECTION' while they showed a quick video comparing New Direction to the Beatles of all people. Then the band came out and played some awful song. They had instruments but my guess werent playing live.

Then I heard the act coming up after the commercial was going to be Miley Cyrus' tribute to the Beatles and I thought to myself 'please god no' and turned it off at that point. So i dont know how she did honoring them. Did she twerk during 'saw her standing there' i dont know.

Im not old enough and stubborn enough that I cant still appreciate good music when I hear it from new artists, Birdys 'Wings' is another example, the problem is I'm just not hearing much lately. And Im hoping its not just me who notices how bad the music industry has gotten.


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Reply I hate to sound like an old fogey (Original post)
Garion_55 May 2014 OP
Brickbat May 2014 #1
hueymahl May 2014 #11
KatyMan May 2014 #40
AAO May 2014 #55
KatyMan May 2014 #85
pipi_k May 2014 #87
Codeine May 2014 #98
mac56 May 2014 #59
VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #2
Supersedeas May 2014 #118
Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2014 #3
IrishAyes May 2014 #23
Enrique May 2014 #4
Leme May 2014 #17
Atman May 2014 #58
RebelOne May 2014 #88
alcibiades_mystery May 2014 #5
BeyondGeography May 2014 #6
QC May 2014 #7
Bosonic May 2014 #8
hueymahl May 2014 #13
Berlin Expat May 2014 #28
Bosonic May 2014 #44
Egnever May 2014 #71
AtheistCrusader May 2014 #54
djean111 May 2014 #9
Schema Thing May 2014 #19
3catwoman3 May 2014 #90
dbonds May 2014 #10
Buns_of_Fire May 2014 #12
Nitram May 2014 #14
Garion_55 May 2014 #16
Nitram May 2014 #21
mcp37 May 2014 #33
Nitram May 2014 #81
kelliekat44 May 2014 #110
Javaman May 2014 #15
IrishAyes May 2014 #27
Ikonoklast May 2014 #66
Javaman May 2014 #83
Gman May 2014 #18
The_Commonist May 2014 #20
dipsydoodle May 2014 #25
raouldukelives May 2014 #22
Orrex May 2014 #30
Garion_55 May 2014 #37
Orrex May 2014 #24
Nye Bevan May 2014 #65
Orrex May 2014 #79
ProfessorGAC May 2014 #69
Orrex May 2014 #80
Trust Buster May 2014 #26
Blue_Adept May 2014 #42
Orrex May 2014 #72
KatyMan May 2014 #52
valerief May 2014 #29
Jamastiene May 2014 #35
stonecutter357 May 2014 #31
Romulox May 2014 #56
Cooley Hurd May 2014 #32
progressoid May 2014 #92
Cooley Hurd May 2014 #104
Jamastiene May 2014 #34
panader0 May 2014 #36
Garion_55 May 2014 #39
AtheistCrusader May 2014 #45
Garion_55 May 2014 #51
3catwoman3 May 2014 #91
edhopper May 2014 #38
FailureToCommunicate May 2014 #41
Arugula Latte May 2014 #82
FailureToCommunicate May 2014 #100
AtheistCrusader May 2014 #43
IrishAyes May 2014 #46
Catherine Vincent May 2014 #47
HelenWheels May 2014 #48
djean111 May 2014 #102
catbyte May 2014 #49
former9thward May 2014 #50
dawg May 2014 #53
Romulox May 2014 #57
mac56 May 2014 #60
Arugula Latte May 2014 #77
Bluenorthwest May 2014 #61
Romulox May 2014 #78
Name removed May 2014 #62
BainsBane May 2014 #63
riqster May 2014 #64
KansDem May 2014 #67
Garion_55 May 2014 #68
Laughing Mirror May 2014 #115
Garion_55 May 2014 #116
pipi_k May 2014 #70
davidthegnome May 2014 #73
JoeyT May 2014 #74
Garion_55 May 2014 #75
Arugula Latte May 2014 #84
pipi_k May 2014 #86
Arugula Latte May 2014 #76
Egnever May 2014 #94
HomerRamone May 2014 #89
mfcorey1 May 2014 #93
Springslips May 2014 #95
DemocraticWing May 2014 #96
Codeine May 2014 #97
HomerRamone May 2014 #99
fishwax May 2014 #114
Cleita May 2014 #101
Garion_55 May 2014 #117
Leme May 2014 #103
Cooley Hurd May 2014 #105
Leme May 2014 #107
Kingofalldems May 2014 #106
bigtree May 2014 #108
kelliekat44 May 2014 #109
BklnDem75 May 2014 #111
DanTex May 2014 #112
Leme May 2014 #113

Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 06:55 AM

1. It's like you don't remember the pop music of the 80s.

What you were watching were pop music awards. Pop music is pop music. If you're listening to mainstream radio stations and watching a pop music award show and thinking that's all that's out there, you're going to get a skewed impression.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:24 AM

11. +1 Exactly right

The music in the 80's sucked just as bad as the music of today, if all you did was listen to the radio (and I am about your age). Mainstream radio music is and always has been corporate driven - it is the equivalent of fast food in the music industry - highly processed, safe and designed to appeal to the masses, but long term consumption can rot you from the inside.

The good stuff is in the background. 5-10 years from now you will hear about it, and it will become more mainstream, but by then it won't be as good as it was before. If you want to hear it now, go to a live show in a small club, get into the music scene, or just ask your local hipster or non-frat college student. It's out there.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #11)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:24 AM

40. another 80s guy chiming in...

Last edited Mon May 19, 2014, 10:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Totally agree hueymahl. There's so much good music out now, the problem is people assume pop music is the music of today.
If anyone reading this and agrees with the OP and has access to satellite radio, try Sirius channel 28 (The Spectrum) and your faith in music and young people will be restored.

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Response to KatyMan (Reply #40)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:58 AM

55. Pop music - opium for the masses.

 

Completely manufactured "pop stars" like Katy Perry makes me want to stick knitting needles in my ears. Then you have these same lame ass people doing "tributes" to great music and they just torture you and just make you downright sad for the kids growing up today.

I am of the 65-73 music generation and I also think the state of "rock" music is abysmal. There are so many "rock" sub-genres that it makes the words "rock and roll" meaningless.

Yes, I am an old fogey!

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Response to AAO (Reply #55)

Mon May 19, 2014, 11:06 AM

85. Well, katy perry (who I don't care for btw)

is no less manufactured than Tony Orlando or Helen Reddy or the 1910 Fruitgum Company or the Archies...the people on the pop charts today aren't any more representative of 'rock' than they were in 1973, generally speaking. And there really aren't that many more sub-genres than there were back in the day.
Try listening to the new Boy and Bear single, Southern Sun



You could easily imagine this song being on the playlist of a station in the early/mid 70s that would play Gerry Rafferty and the like.

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Response to AAO (Reply #55)

Mon May 19, 2014, 11:38 AM

87. Katy Perry...damn her!

I had a particularly traumatizing Katy Perry episode last year.

After seeing her "California Girls" video on You Tube one day, I was plagued with an earworm that played itself day in and day out...usually very early in the morning when I was totally defenseless against the onslaught.

It went on for about two weeks.

Horrifying!!!





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Response to KatyMan (Reply #40)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:11 PM

98. SiriusXM36 AltNation.

 

So many good new bands. Here's a great one!



The video sucks, so I just linked to an audio track.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #11)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:18 AM

59. ^ THIS ^

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:03 AM

2. I was thinking the exact same thing....

 

Methinks Old Fogeydom has arrived for this person whether he likes it or not!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #2)

Thu May 22, 2014, 09:31 AM

118. Father Time and Mother Nature are undefeated

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:06 AM

3. Heh :)

Didn't watch, but yeah, that sounds pretty hideous.

There's good music from any time frame, and sometimes even good music and crappy music from the exact same performers. I'm not a big Michael Jackson fan, even though he had a few catchy numbers I liked in a 'pop' sense, but his 'Man in the Mirror' is my favorite of his from a message point of view. Early rap had important messages as well, about the injustices of our 'justice' system and institutional racism. To see it twisted to the point where cultural appropriation leaves privileged white performers taking it over hits me as modern 'blackface'.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #3)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:54 AM

23. Your last sentence all too true.

It's like when the daughter of the Oklahoma's governor dresses up in Native American costume and calls those folks 'sheep'. Big stink about that recently.

I do enjoy clothing inspired by a certain respectful, historical ethnicity, but that also calls for a light touch. For instance I'll wear the occasional conservative dashiki or wraparound pants sometimes called 'fisherman' because they're lightweight and very comfortable. But it's a far cry from dressing in costume. In Los Angeles for many years I was involved with a wonderful man from Sri Lanka, and certain friends in that community gave me a few saris as a symbol of acceptance. I wore them at special gatherings but never as everyday wear or for commercial performance and not at all since the death of my beloved. They remain carefully packed away in a trunk to this day.

That said, I've heard some incredible white bluesmen and women, and equally stunning black opera singers. Maybe I'm not doing the best job explaining myself, but I trust you and others will follow the obvious sentiments and not misunderstand. Perhaps the best explanation rests on a recent event, when I discovered a young white r&b group called St. Paul and the Broken Bones. Didn't think I'd ever hear anything that glorious again, but they just blew me away. They're well on the road to taking the music world by storm. Extremely picky though I am about what I consider real music, I downright feel sorry for anyone who hasn't yet heard them.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:08 AM

4. i'm the same age as you and i'm a bigger old fogey than you

that stuff you mention from the 80's, I thought was crap back then. I'm with Homer Simpson, who said 1974 was our musical peak.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #4)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:39 AM

17. IMO. 1974 not the peak

 

Perhaps somewhere in the 50s or 60s was peak. 1974 was maybe the last... but I tend to put it a few years earlier.

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Response to Leme (Reply #17)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:04 AM

58. 50's music sucked, IMHO.

The mid-to-late sixties is when music really exploded (not coincidentally, so did acid). People wrote songs and complete pieces of music, not just repeated synthesized drum beats and a chorus. Think of anything by even "mainstream" bands of the day, like Chicago, Traffic, Blind Faith, Cream, etc...these weren't songs, they were artistic creations my real musical geniuses. Watch virtually any so-called Pop band today and the eponymous star can't even play an instrument. They learn to dance in sync with a dozen other dancers who have equal talent, while the lead fakes it along to a pre-recorded soundtrack. That's may technically be music, but it also pure bullshit.

As for the fifties, YUCK. I don't even like early Beatles. And this coming from a family member of one of the most famous girl-bands of the era, The Angels (My Boyfriend's Back). Today isn't much different; manufactured music. Except for that now any hack with a laptop and Garage Band can record an album in their bedroom. No thanks.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #4)

Mon May 19, 2014, 12:28 PM

88. I am even a bigger old fogey than you. I'm 75 years old.

And my all favorite music is from the late '60s, '70s and early '80s.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:09 AM

5. There's plenty of good rap today

 

If you want to hear just a male rapper rapping, try Ka's album Grief Pedigree (2011). It's just as good as much of the "Golden Era" stuff.

There's lots of good music out there today. Lots and lots. That you don't know about it is really only your fault. Spend 20 minutes a week reading album reviews on Pitchfork, or watching a decent YouTube music review channel like "The Needle Drop." Just with that little effort, you will know more than you do now, and find great music that you really love.

As for women in cheerleader outfits signing silly songs, you're really gonna extol 80's music and come up with that critique?

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:14 AM

6. 70s child here

In the early part of the decade, Pink Floyd created music that just might last as long as people have ears. By the end of the decade, The Clash and The Talking Heads were peaking. And there was a ton of other great stuff.

Then Madonna came along; the power of MTV and the tyranny of visual style. You know, that thing that made Mick Jagger into a total nonentity and drove Keith Richards crazy...

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:16 AM

7. Music is corporate now, produced by no more than four or five

gigantic multinationals who care nothing at all about anything other than the money. So they imitate one another, appeal to the lowest common denominator, etc. All the things one would expect from corporate culture.

My students, college freshmen and sophomores, mostly listen to 80s and 90s music for this reason. They think most current music sucks, and they are right.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:17 AM

8. Here's some Japanese Metal to put everything in perspective


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Response to Bosonic (Reply #8)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:27 AM

13. Wow - a "Pop" metal band

I never thought I would see the day . . .

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Response to Bosonic (Reply #8)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:07 AM

28. Oh, that's nothing......

meet Hatsune Miku - the vocaloid star.

<>

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Response to Berlin Expat (Reply #28)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:32 AM

44. And the thread circle is complete

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Response to Berlin Expat (Reply #28)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:46 AM

71. wow both of those were quite entertaining

 

Thanks

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Response to Bosonic (Reply #8)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:53 AM

54. I think every zumba class in the country should be replaced with this.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:18 AM

9. On the other hand, I could watch Pink's performance of Glitter in th Air, from the Grammy's, again

 

and again. Beautiful song, incredible performance.
I graduated from high school in the early 60's.
I do think categorizing music by age groups or decades is silly.
You won't hear much good new stuff on the radio, IMO, unless you listen to Pandora or something like that. I have found some great songs/artists by following up on songs I hear on tv and movie soundtracks. Also found some great artists by spinning through Pinterest music boards.
There has been crap music all along, and last night was not much about music at all, just showbiz and pushing records. Or songs, I guess, you have to dig around to find 45 rpms these days.
In a way, I think albums diluted pop music, when I was young it seemed albums only had 1-3 good songs, the rest was filler.
Individual MP3 downloads are the new 45 RPMs.

Shoot, we loved songs that made no sense whatsoever - Wooly Bully comes to mind. Just having fun.
Plus - all music is subjective, methinks.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #9)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:43 AM

19. ^this

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Response to djean111 (Reply #9)

Mon May 19, 2014, 02:03 PM

90. Wooly Bully...is one of my favorite...

...nonsense songs that always makes me feel good, right along with Jeremiah Was A Bullfrog (Joy to the World) and Cover of the Rolling Stone by Dr. Hook and the Medicine Show.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:21 AM

10. The music business does not like Artists.

The people that run the music business want to sell product. So they have turned Pop music to all image and production. Artist get in the way with 'feelings' and 'art' that might not sell. There is art still being produced but it isn't in mainstream pop. You have to go look for it.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:24 AM

12. Hey, you kids, stop playing that music on my lawn!

And while we're on the subject of lawns...

I'm not giving up on it yet, though. But if I ever see Rod Stewart twerking to "Do Ya Think I'm Sexy?", THEN I'll know the end times have truly arrived.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:33 AM

14. Dear Old Fogey

If you haven't learned by now that everybody's musical taste is different, and everybody in their teens gets hooked on some music that they may not like for the rest of their life, you are doomed to Eternal Fogeydom. My parents thought Elvis Presley, and then the Beatles were degenerate proof of the collapse of civilization as they know it. Now those tunes are elevator music. Get a life and stop worrying about "the kids today".

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Response to Nitram (Reply #14)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:37 AM

16. im not so much worried about 'the kids today'

as i am 'i love music but i dont want to be stuck listening to old stuff thats good for the rest of my life, i want to listen to new stuff thats good too. its just few and far between'


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Response to Garion_55 (Reply #16)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:47 AM

21. Dude, there are tons of good stuff out there...

...and it helps to open your musical taste to music coming out of the rest of the world, too. The drek will be replaced by other drek in the endless parade off attention-getting, faddy pop music. Don't let it distract you from finding something more rewarding. It's out there, I promise!

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Response to Nitram (Reply #21)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:12 AM

33. Agreed...

sometimes it takes a bit of digging but there are good bands (American or otherwise) out there but it can take a lot of digging. Unfortunately, many of the good bands just don't get a lot of radio play; therefore, shows like the Grammies, Billboard Awards, etc. do not feature them. I gave up on radio a long time ago, especially since companies like Clear Channel owns damn near everything.

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Response to mcp37 (Reply #33)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:37 AM

81. My wife and I don't watch TV. Period.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #14)

Wed May 21, 2014, 07:04 AM

110. Another old Foggy here: I used to tell everyone that I like ALL music..from classical to rock.

 

and I still do. This stuff today is not "music" but noise with a beat. When rap first came on the scene it had a social message (sometimes negative) and I could understand the words. The new mush-mouth-inane noise that is now produced to a beat is not "music" that requires any notion of talent.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:37 AM

15. Your first mistake was watching the billboard awards.

using that as a gauge for "good" music is like saying spam is comparable to a T-bone steak.

get away from that crap.



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Response to Javaman (Reply #15)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:03 AM

27. Hear, hear!

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Response to Javaman (Reply #15)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:32 AM

66. Oh yeah, Mr. Smartypants?

...saying spam is comparable to a T-bone steak.









WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?











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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #66)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:44 AM

83. I know to admit when I'm wrong.

that is so wrong. LOL

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:42 AM

18. You were very wise to turn it off when you did

Nothing good could come out of a Miley Cyrus Beatles tribute.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:47 AM

20. Yep, you're absolutely right.

You DO sound like an old fogey!

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Response to The_Commonist (Reply #20)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:02 AM

25. Which doesn't alter the fact that most modern music is pants anway.

.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:51 AM

22. I just read a study. Perhaps on this site.

Stating that the music of today, scientifically, is the worst music. That it has lost its experimentalism. All the songs sound the same with the same pentameter and that they are getting gradually louder while saying nothing of importance.
Just like our news media when you think about it. Maybe just like everything has become. A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

I actually have heard a few pop songs as of late that I don't find too horrible. Invariably however, what was a vapid. toe tapping experience will be ruined by a needles rap interlude. The songs aren't that great, but when the rapper shows up midway and starts talking about holy grails and Jeffery Dahmer, it just ruins the effect. For me at least.

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Response to raouldukelives (Reply #22)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:08 AM

30. Needles rap is the worst.

#amusingtypo

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Response to raouldukelives (Reply #22)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:19 AM

37. you said it better then i did!

I guess my main point was that rap was new, scratching records was new, hair bands was new, synth pop was new, skateboard punk was new. All these new styles of music were being created. And lots of different styles.
Was a lot of it bad music? sure. but there was also a lot of good. but with 5 different radio stations you could find 5 different styles of music playing.

the main thing was the work put into creating all this stuff and trying to get it heard. the experimentation. the practice. the creativity.

what do they do today? everything is auto tuned. the biggest female singer in country today cant sing for crap live, she sounds awful. prepackaged, auto tuned, no talent, no work involved, studio created, no originality, mush. and every radio station out there is playing the same mush.

rap used to be about the struggle of getting out of the ghetto, to trying to live through the pain of poverty and drug addiction and even some feel good songs about getting together with your friends and dancing. now its all popping bottles in the club smacking the asses of females, showing your guns and having fat rims on your tires and thats pretty much it. the message itself is a turn off, its tough to get through thats to see if the music is any good.


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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:59 AM

24. Today's music pales before Samantha Fox's "I Wanna Have Some Fun."

Who could forget Stacey Q's timeless ballad Two of Hearts?

And let us recall such classics as Ice, Ice, Baby and Girl You Know It's True.


Truly, these kids today don't know what good music is.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #24)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:31 AM

65. I preferred Samantha Fox's older stuff, such as "Touch Me (I want your body)"

but I admit that "Naughty Girls Need Love Too" was inspired.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #65)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:34 AM

79. Yes, her classic period is far superior to most of her later work.

She shall not look upon her like again.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #24)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:41 AM

69. Watch It With The Two Of Hearts Slam, Buddy!

To be honest i just thought Stacy Q was really cute. The song, meh.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #69)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:35 AM

80. Her guest appearance on The Facts of Life was the beginning of the end.

You don't come back from that.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:03 AM

26. Me thinks that some dismiss "old fogey" too lightly.

 

Time is the ultimate test of good music. Sinatra and many others were before my time but I still enjoy the music. I grew up on Neil Young, ELO, the Who, Zeppelin, the Doors, the Stones and many other great musicians of my generation. This time of year was special. With the warm weather, I would attend 2 or 3 concerts a week at an affordable price. In this corporatized generation, do you see that kind of allegiance with regards to today's music ? The groups I've listed are still a great draw decades later. Do you think today's youth will be busting down the doors to see today's rappers 2 decades from now ? Some dismiss "old fogey" to easily defining him as the typical older generation dismissing new wave music. I think time will prove his argument to be valid.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #26)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:27 AM

42. That was a different time though

Access to material was limited and you had what, five TV channels, a handful of radio stations and ~everyone~ listened to the same thing. Look at how TV ratings are these days for the big networks. A shadow of what they were twenty five years ago before cable exploded and people went off elsewhere. They now go for the safest things to draw as many people as they can. Pop radio is the same thing.

Now, if we had 500 channels and the internet back in the 50's and 60's, how much of that music would stand the test of time? Probably not as much because unlike then, only a percentage of people would have heard it compared to now. And the "makers and shakers" of today that incorporate that music do so because it was all they heard as kids so it was their growing up music. Another generation or so and a lot of it will fall to the wayside.

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #42)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:54 AM

72. It's all gone to shit since I stopped buying my 78's at Woolworth's

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #26)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:49 AM

52. and several decades ago

people were saying rock music wouldn't last. What makes you think young people now won't be all into nostalgia tours like people your (and my) age are now?

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:08 AM

29. Alas, melody died in the sixties. RIP, melody. nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #29)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:16 AM

35. Vocal harmonies were great in the 60s.

Now, you hardly ever get to hear that any more, sadly.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:10 AM

31. There is good music you just have to look for it.


I FINK U FREEKY' by DIE ANTWOORD.

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Response to stonecutter357 (Reply #31)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:58 AM

56. Hold up! Whoa, whoa, whoa wait a minute minute minute, Jesus Christ!

Yo my man DJ High Tek - Shit, this motherfucking beat is noice!

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:11 AM

32. Did you catch St Vincent on SNL Saturday?

 

New(ish) artist who is PHENOMENAL!!!

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #32)

Mon May 19, 2014, 03:54 PM

92. I'm seeing a some Laurie Anderson and Annie Lennox with a little Eno/Byrne on the side.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #92)

Tue May 20, 2014, 08:37 AM

104. Yep - good call - I think you named all of Annie Clark's influences

 

She toured w/ Byrne last year:

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:15 AM

34. Both Justin Bieber and The Jonas Brothers have records out and sell millions.

Plus, bands like Creed and Nickelback are "popular."

I rest my case. That is all that needs to be said. IOW, yes, it has gone to shite. No bones about it.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:18 AM

36. Ahh...the Bay Area in the sixties!

Big Brother and the Holding Company, Moby Grape, Grateful Dead, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Santana, Jefferson Airplane and so many more. But my favorite music continues to be the blues. From 'way back in the Delta days, through Chicago, the British Blues Invasion, through to today, it remains vital, and relatively unnoticed and under appreciated. Jazz too.
Call me an old fogey too. The stuff I hear on the radio today sucks and has for years. Even Country has gone to the dogs.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #36)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:23 AM

39. i HATE country! but i love old country!

its weird.

david allen coe. willy. hank jr. i like that stuff

but that croning, nasal pitched twanging whatever that is they call country today is not good.

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Response to Garion_55 (Reply #39)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:34 AM

45. I grew up on country. Now it's garbage.

Every fucking song is about getting a chick in a pickup on a dirt road.


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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #45)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:49 AM

51. +1 million. this is funny shit.

exactly why i hate country music.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #45)

Mon May 19, 2014, 02:24 PM

91. Some years ago, I read something...

...about the reuisite elements of a country western song:

- your mama
- your girl
- your dawg
- your gun
- your truck
- your time in jail
- trains

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:19 AM

38. Al Kooper has a great blog

http://www.newmusicforoldpeople.com/

For people just like you and me.

And yes today's mainstream music is worse than older music. It is driven by producers and the record companies to the determent of any artists. Lots of it is interchangeable with little melody.

There is still good music out there, but not part of the crowd you saw last night.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:25 AM

41. I still love Motown, World, and just playing (think Pete Seeger group stuff) but my son agrees with

you that so much of today's corporate cookie cutter hits and artists can be summed up by what he calls "Over privileged girl doesn't get what she wants"

(AND you'll have to pry those beautiful (large) LP covers from my cold dead fingers!)



?size=640x420

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Response to FailureToCommunicate (Reply #41)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:43 AM

82. Those are great albums you posted, but my question is ...

 

how many times in one lifetime can you hear certain songs? It starts to get depressing after awhile, at least for me.

But, I know, it's all very subjective ...

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #82)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:28 PM

100. Hmmm. I guess depressing songs will always be depressing. But, now, DANCE songs will

be just right every time you want to get up and boogie down. I've worn out some vinyl Lps I hauled 'round to various parties over the years, before mix tapes and all these new MP3 playlist thing-a-ma-bobs came along...

De gustibus non est disputandum

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:32 AM

43. I find solace in folk music these days.

Frank Turner. Amanda Palmer.

Quality is out there, created by people who actually love their craft, just gotta look for it.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:36 AM

46. As a 68-yr-old Irish-American lady, I might strike some as the epitome of Old Fogeydom.

Maybe in some ways I actually am. Yet for some inexplicable reason I usually get along far better with 'kids' and REALLY OLD people better than my age mates. Still love college towns because for some reason the students are so outgoing. Even at my age I can be walking down a crowded street and sooner or later somebody will high-five me. It's a little mystifying because I'm not wearing a Che shirt or anything. Maybe they're reacting to subliminal messages, because I just plain LIKE them.

Anyway, back to music: w/o doubt we've always had to search out the best. Remember that Pat Boone was an auditory atrocity straight out the gate! We have to be conscious of our own prejudices, too. For instance I once heard a couple songs I really loved when I didn't know they were by David Lee Roth and some heavy metal guy I personally detested. Kinda took me down a peg or two, and I benefited greatly from it.

That said, my personal tastes have always been wide ranging if picky in general. But here's what will strike many as real Old Fogeyism: the only NPR station I can pick up in this remote region where I retired has a music lineup that I thoroughly enjoy. Prairie Home Companion (lots of classics, folk, blues, etc.), Celtic Connection and later Thistle and Shamrock, and other programs devoted exclusively to old and new folk, rock, and blues. Happy Land for me. What I'm trying to say is that Old Fogeys don't have to be curmudgeons.

And when I recently heard St. Paul and the Broken Bones (classic r&b YOUNG band) for the first time, I felt as if I'd already died and gone to heaven. They're THAT great. All 20-somethings. So you cheat yourself if you shut your heart and ears to what the young have to offer. Maybe I AM an old fogey, but I've never been that stupid.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:39 AM

47. Aww....

[quote]"Then I heard the act coming up after the commercial was going to be Miley Cyrus' tribute to the Beatles and I thought to myself 'please god no' and turned it off at that point." [/quote]


You missed the Michael Jackson hologram. That was the only reason I watched it although most of the show I had it on mute and then turned it off after the hologram (which wasn't him btw).

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:40 AM

48. Have to agree with the Old Fogey (not)

Watching "The Green Mile" and there is a scene where they watch an old Fred Astaire movie. It was Fred and Ginger singing and dancing to a song, "Dancing cheek to cheek." Beautiful song, lovely lyrics and put together with Fred and Ginger dancing it was magic.
Don't see that today. The dancing now is mostly gymnastics.

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Response to HelenWheels (Reply #48)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:59 PM

102. On the other hand, not so many years back, Usher and Alicia Keyes danced and sang My Boo, at

 

the Grammies, and they were beautiful.
and dammit, I cannot find a clip of that anywhere.....

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:45 AM

49. "please God, no"

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:49 AM

50. I live in a college town and go to the many bars there.

The music that is played is from the 60s and 70s. Kids don't listen to today's music. I know, someone must be buying it, but people out for a good time are not listening to it.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:52 AM

53. People like to rag on 80's music, but this decade sucks much worse.

Last decade sucked worse, too. The biggest rock bands in the world were probably Coldplay and Nickelback.

The 90's had some good stuff, but lots of crap too. I don't think they were any better than the 80's.

The 60's and 70's were creative peaks for pop music. It's hard to write something truly new and innovative in the genre now, because it was probably already tried successfully back then.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:00 AM

57. I feel sorry for young people today, on soooo many levels. nt

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:20 AM

60. When you are about 35 years old, something terrible happens to music.

–Steve Race, BBC disk jockey.

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Response to mac56 (Reply #60)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:33 AM

77. It's funny, I had the opposite experience.

 

I was always pretty into music in my teens and early 20s. Then, in the early-mid 90s, most of it started sounding "meh" to me (I could never get into grunge very much, even through I was the perfect age for it). But the advent of digital music, where you could have the miracle of thousands of songs at the touch of a finger, I was hooked back in. Since then I've been mining the Internet for great old stuff I missed, from the 60s on, and also getting into fantastic new music. I've even come to appreciate grunge just a bit more...Just a bit.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:22 AM

61. These awards started in 1989. Back in your day. The dominate artist was George Michael

 

who was artist of the year and won three others. Janet Jackson and Michael also won awards. I wonder if, at that time, you were lauding them all or if you saw them as about the same as last night's crowd? Big George fan back then? Was Janet not an utterly contrived nepotistic creature, with basically no voice? Cyrus can sing. Jan posed and pouted well. But that was then, and it were all green fields when I were a lad....

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #61)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:34 AM

78. Janet Jackson's Control was pretty awesome back in the day. Even for a rocker, like me.

The type of music in question is largely producer--not artist--driven, so the real comparison is the overall sound and impact of the tracks.

I don't know who the producers were behind Janet's sound, but they are/were obviously a lot more imaginative, original, and cutting edge than Myley is today, who is known for gimmicks, not songs.

The song "What Have You Done for Me Lately?" indirectly spawned a whole electronic genre (look up "lately bass" if you're interested.)

&feature=kp

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)


Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:25 AM

63. sales indicate the public agrees

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:26 AM

64. The only difference is time to sift out the chaff, leaving the kernels.

Every era has light and fluffy tunes, and music of substance. For example, 1970 had such dreck as "Gimme Dat Ding" and the execrable "Patches" as well as "Bridge Over Troubled Water and "War".

1960 saw "Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny Yellow Polka Dot Bikini" and "Georgia on my Mind".

1950, "The Thing" and "The Tennessee Waltz".

And so on. As time passes, we forget the crappy pop music that took up most of the airwaves, and focus instead on the relatively few gems that come out during any given time.

Music mostly sucks now. Music mostly sucked back then, too.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:33 AM

67. When I was in my early teens, I listened to Gerry Mulligan and Chet Baker

Late 1960s.

I was amazed at my peers who'd ask me if I heard the latest hit from the Beatles or the Rolling Stones and the like. I'd admit I didn't and that I was listening to West Coast 1950s jazz. They'd reel in shock and say I should be listening to rock. I'd shrug my shoulders and say "Maybe you should be listening to jazz."

They were all for freedom of choice as long as the choice was their's.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:34 AM

68. my point with video illustration

the thing i remember most about music in the late 70's/early 80's was the variety.

at any point in the mid 1980s you could turn on the radio and hear this many different types of styles playing on different stations...


R&B



RAP




SOUL/BOOGIE

&feature=kp


SYNTHO




ALTERNATIVE

&feature=kp


POP




HAIR BAND



SKATE BAND



METAL BAND





there was good and bad music of all different types but mostly lots of different types to choose from.

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Response to Garion_55 (Reply #68)

Thu May 22, 2014, 07:07 AM

115. my hat off to you, Garion

for that comprehensive, encylopedic post for that era. 

What always interested me during that time was turning on the radio whenever I was visiting another city, to hear how what they were playing was similar or different from what was being played in my town. So I'm curious what city or cities you were tuning in from, that you would have such a vast knowledge of radio music from that time.


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Response to Laughing Mirror (Reply #115)

Thu May 22, 2014, 07:37 AM

116. i grew up in silicon valley california

San Jose area. so early on i was introduced to the hispanic culture and music, i had a few black friends growing up so they introduced me to soul/r&B, we had the heavy metal kids who my older brother was more in tune with and the skate punk kids my younger brother hung out with. When rap exploded a lot of my friends got together and we all learned how to breakdance and thats also the time that british synth music came out, thomspon twins, bananarama. Some of my friends were into hair bands but not many. And there are many colleges around that area so the radio stations would play a lot of underground alternative stuff.

I tried to partake in as many different kinds of styles of music back then as i could and luckily i lived in an area that was very diverse. I would have hated being stuck in a small southern town where the only two types of music you heard were country or western.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:43 AM

70. Not that much of

a decade snob.

I grew up in the late 50s and through the 60s, so yeah...I like the music from back then.

Also some from the 40s. Big Band...Swing, etc. My dad had quite a few Dixieland Jazz records, so I like that too.

And 80s music.

And right up to the mid 1990s.


After that, it goes downhill. Not that there isn't some some good pop music then, but IMO, it's few and far between.

And whatever they've got going on now...with the same dance-club style beat from the 80s and very lame lyrics...well, it's shit, plain and simple.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:56 AM

73. Seriously? "Let her go"?

Most overplayed song on the radio up in my neck of the woods. That song drives me nuts! The guy has this really annoying nasal quality to his voice that makes me want to bust my radio every time I hear it. But I just change the station instead.

Now, with that being said, I mostly agree with you about current music. Occasionally I hear something I like - but when I want something to dance to, or something to sing along with, I usually have to raid my parents records or old CDs. A lot of the music I hear on the radio is so awful that it should make one's ears bleed. "We're up all night to get lucky..."

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:01 AM

74. I think your mind, possibly as some sort of defense mechanism,

has blocked out a lot of the bad music from back then. And I can't really say I blame you.

I was just a kid then, but I definitely remember groups like Flock of Seagulls, The Buggles, Spandau Ballet, and whoever sang that 99 Luftballoons song shitting up the airwaves.

Metal wasn't better either. Remember Stryper?

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #74)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:20 AM

75. like it or not the buggles were right

video really did kill the radio star.

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Response to Garion_55 (Reply #75)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:51 AM

84. Every decade has its crap music.

 

MTV can't be blamed for the bad stuff of the 70s, for example. That decade produced greatness, but it also produced the Zenith of Sappy Music with such unavoidable megahits as "You Light Up My Life," "Feelings," "I've Never Been to Me," "Seasons in the Sun," "Escape (the Pina Colada Song)," "Disco Duck," "Muskrat Love," "You're Having My Baby," and on and on. I clearly remember that there were few options for music besides listening to this stuff played incessantly on the radio, or playing your own albums over and over, skipping needle and all.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #84)

Mon May 19, 2014, 11:23 AM

86. Oh, the memories!!!

hahahahaah!!!!


OK, a few more


"Lovin' You" - Minnie Riperton

"I Am I Said" - Neil Diamond

"Look What They've Done To My Song" - New Seekers


Anything at all by Donny Osmond


All recordings of those songs should be destroyed at once, lest someone 1000 years from now thinks the entire 1970s sucked big time.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 10:24 AM

76. I'm your age but I think there is GREAT music coming out. I love it!

 

I'm not talking about Miley Cyrus and that crap. But there is wonderful stuff being made every day, and it's all accessible on the Internet, which we didn't have back when we were dependent on Top 40 and MTV for our music.

Here's a thread on the subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018612539

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #76)

Mon May 19, 2014, 04:09 PM

94. I cant stand Miley Cyrus!

 

But a few of her songs just own me

I have a real love hate relationship with her going on.

Someone else i used to ridicule relentlessly umbarelllla rella rellla ....But oh how I love Rihanna now.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 12:51 PM

89. Reasonably old fogey here

My "era" goes from Elvis Presley to Elvis Costello. Those who say "there's good music, you just have to seek it out" are missing the point. Sure, there's all these barely-heard-of artists filling their little niches (here's my favorite this decade, Nick Curran, maybe the greatest rock 'n' roll screamer since Little Richard, who unfortunately died of cancer at 35 a couple of years ago: https://play.spotify.com/album/1mNUzdLvazbtnd6wMjfULs ) but there's nothing so undeniable that it sweeps away everything else--Nirvana was probably the last example. And this is probably because the world situation has gotten so depressing that nothing that moving or uplifting or even righteously angry can emerge.

I have dealt with my saturation with my old favorites by exploring the past, from pre-rock pop to classical. There's lots of great melodies there; why must people subscribe to the capitalist dictum that what isn't the newest is obsolete?

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 04:03 PM

93. Gil Scott Heron, the original rapper was wonderful.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 05:25 PM

95. I graduated high school in 1992

And I agree with you. I think it is a direct effect of media consolidation. The old time smaller record companies with employees dedicated to good music are gone. Instead we have Peter Principle CEOs who want a cheeply made product and high mark-up, no money to develop good artist. Just like everywhere else in this dying culture, the the incompitant Crappeos are screwing it all up.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 06:54 PM

96. Thinking what you saw on TV is what people listen to is your first mistake.

That stuff is marketed to teenage girls and middle aged people still trying to be cool. And moreover, it's marketed to dumb people.

Actually good music exists and great artists are more prolific than ever before. It's not usually played on your mainstream radio stations, but you can hear it on college radio and an occasionally cool public radio station. Maybe it's called "indie", but big labels are selling the music too. People my age don't get their music off the radio or television, mainly because few of us listen to mainstream radio or watch music television. All of the best music is discovered and shared on the internet.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:05 PM

97. Top40 music has always sucked donkey ass.

 

Most of what you remember as cool in the 80s was probably not pop music being sold to 14 year old girls, whoa re the target audience for the ignorant shit you were watching.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #97)

Mon May 19, 2014, 07:16 PM

99. How old are you?

Number one here blows, but just about everything else is at least OK, many great:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_1966

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Response to HomerRamone (Reply #99)

Thu May 22, 2014, 12:16 AM

114. I dunno--i see a lot of filler there



A few standards, to be sure, but also a ton of perfectly harmless pop songs of the sort that an old fogey of 50 years ago would have been perfectly dismissive of, and of which most listeners from later generations would be passingly familiar with at best.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 08:31 PM

101. If you actually watched the ABA, you are not an old fogey.

When you don't bother to watch it at all, you have arrived at old fogeyism.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #101)

Thu May 22, 2014, 07:42 AM

117. yea i guess you are right. I WANT to like new music

Im always happy at finding a new catchy tune. I havent totally give up yet.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Mon May 19, 2014, 09:14 PM

103. It's th newer genres since 1970 that do not suit my taste

 

and re-doing the genres that I like.. are just repeats.
-
I am not a fan of techno, grunge, disco, country rock, heavy metal, rap. Some of the songs are ok, just overall not something I seek out.
-
The "rock" that is now put out is basically just a refinement. Nice, but not spectacular to my ears.
-
There probably are great musicians, artists today, perhaps as many as ever. Just nothing excites me. Much of it is a do-over.
-
New swing, new big band, new ragtime, new rock, new western swing, new blues in the styles mentioned are just redoing those style songs. Nice but just "repeats". I liked those older versions ... and still do.
-
Lots of stuff I never liked much... jazz, bluegrass, country but I do have some songs from those that I liked.
-
but where music has developed since 1974 has pretty much left me preferring the earlier works.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Tue May 20, 2014, 08:42 AM

105. And some Frabbit and Dum Dum Girls - both new(ish) bands:

 



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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #105)

Wed May 21, 2014, 06:47 AM

107. Nice enough I guess.

 

Maybe the lyrics are good for you.. I am not impressed. And the music is just same same. I have heard that music 1000s of times. 10s of thousands. Just a repeat musically. A repeat of music made prior to 1974.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Tue May 20, 2014, 08:47 AM

106. Is there any music that is not auto-tuned or whatever?

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Wed May 21, 2014, 06:53 AM

108. it's like you never lived through the 80's

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Wed May 21, 2014, 06:58 AM

109. Hard to add anything to what is been said. But if you can't hum a tune and remember the words

 

to a song you just heard....it likely is not "music." Just noise with a beat. Rap use to have a real social message either negative or positive...but it had a message. That's why i listen to "Smooth Jazz" and love the Sunday jazz shows that play Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Ella, Sarah, Nancy, Torme, Patti, Eva,...and the shows that play old blues and soul music...Stylistics, Spinners, Everly Bros., etc. I still remember the words and the tunes after all these years. I can not hum one melody from that shit on Billboards. And I really love country music too.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Wed May 21, 2014, 07:46 AM

111. 80's era for me

Hall and Oates, Jackson, Madonna, Wham!, Whitney Houston, Culture Club, The Bangles, Journey, REO, Luther Vandross, Marvin Gaye, Estafan, Old School Rap... heck even Milli Vanilli. Too much to love. Thank God for Pandora!

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Wed May 21, 2014, 09:07 AM

112. It's a question of taste and age group, mainly.

It's true that things like metal and hair bands aren't what they used to be. Their time has mostly passed.

Rap/hip-hop is still going strong and has evolved a lot. It's perfectly legitimate for you to prefer rap from the mid 90s and earlier, but that doesn't mean that Jay-Z and Eminem aren't great artists (although granted those two are more from the 2000s than the 2010s).

You probably don't care much for today's electronic/DJ music, which is fine, but again, this is a matter of taste. Many young people would describe the current trend of electronic music as an original high-quality genre.

As far as boy bands, they've been around. Now it's One Direction, before that there was the Backstreet Boys, before that there was New Kids on the Block, and so on. Judging an era's music by their boy bands is a bad idea.


Also, remember, the same argument as you are making could and was made about 70s/80s music. Back then the "old fogeys" could insist that jazz was the true innovative American artform, and rock bands were a bunch of guys who couldn't sing in tune and could barely play their instruments.


Is there less overall innovation in pop music today than say 20-30 years ago? That might be true. The emergence of rap/hip-hop was probably IMO the last "big new thing" to occur in popular music, and that was a while ago.

On the other hand, there's a lot more variety in popular music today than there was decades ago, facilitated by internet distribution.

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Response to Garion_55 (Original post)

Wed May 21, 2014, 11:34 PM

113. just thought of another reason why "old" music appeals more

 

I think there was more emphasis on the music.
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now a lot is put on the video presentation... there were no videos in the 1960s
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granted that some performers were advanced because the were photogenic and such .. but no where near as much as when videos came into the mix

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