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Set your lying eyes...upon that which you deny.
Video links verifying the size of voter turnout and that voters were largely peaceful as recognized by the Western media links below.
Also check out these excerpt's from major US and UK media outlets proving voter turnout and size of crowds.
New York Times-May 12th
According to early results cited by The Associated Press, 89 percent of voters in the Donetsk region and 96 percent in neighboring Luhansk voted for greater autonomy, but it remained uncertain whether the two provinces would follow Crimea Peninsula in seeking to be annexed by Russia.
Guardian UK- Sunday, May 11th- Only four polling stations opened on Sunday in Mariupol, which is home to 500,000 people. One was in the burned-out city administration building, seized by separatists and scene of fierce clashes in recent days. There were huge queues of people, almost all of whom said they were voting yes to separatism.
Guardian Live Stream coverage
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/ukraine-referendum-for-self-rule-in-eastern-regions-begins-live-updates
Guardian reporter Shaun Walker wrote:
Been to two schools on outskirts of Donetsk with @obk - lots of voters, big queues, all so far voting for the creation of Donetsk Republic
Guardian Live feed at 11:27 AM: Mike Giglio of BuzzFeed says Donetsk might run out of ballots. Very crowded Donetsk polling station says it has gone through half of its 5k ballots, might run out.
Shaun walker at 11:28 AM- There is huge anti-Kiev and smaller but growing separatist sentiment.
Associated Press at 11:56 AM- The Associated Press has a roundup of the vote so far. The results seems a foregone conclusion.
At one polling station in a school in Donetsk, turnout was brisk in the first hour of voting. All voting slips that could be seen in the clear ballot boxes showed that the option for autonomy had been selected.
Guardian Summary at 12:26 PM- Summary
• Long queues have formed outside polling stations in a hastily organised plebiscite on independence in eastern Ukraine. Most people appear to have voted in favour of self-rule event though what this means exactly is unclear.
•
Shaun Walker at 12:30 PM- Shaun Walker has just sent this update on a vote that is leaning heavily to a 'yes' vote for self-rule.
It’s a warm sunny day in Donetsk, and I’ve visited a few polling stations. Most have queues. Partly that is because not many polling stations are working, but partly it is because there is genuinely a lot of people wanting to vote. Almost everyone I have met is voting yes.
The results were not scientific but reflected the level of interest in the referendum.
Residents’ attitudes appear to have hardened considerably with the deaths of dozens of pro-Russian activists in the city of Odessa this month and with reports that troops fired at a crowd in Mariupol last week.
Voting in Donetsk appeared orderly at many polling stations. People lined up to record their names and then stepped into curtained booths to mark their ballots before dropping them into containers.
LA TIMES-(included photo). 16x9 Some residents of this eastern Ukrainian city voted for independence Sunday in expectation of soon having their region annexed by Russia.
Others cast "yes" votes as what they considered a first step toward demanding more regional autonomy while remaining part of Ukraine.
Still others, frustrated by rising prices and a withered national currency, voted in favor of the vaguely worded referendum out of conviction that they can depend on neither Kiev nor Moscow to resolve their political and security problems.
The single referendum question was simple in its wording but vague in its intent: Do you support the act of independence for the People's Republic of Donetsk?
Some, like medic Ninel Lvovich, said they voted "yes" out of despair.
We want to decide our own affairs. We don't want America or Europe coming here, and I don't think we can count on Russia's help.
- Ninel Lvovich, medic who voted 'yes' in referendum
"We want to decide our own affairs. We don't want America or Europe coming here, and I don't think we can count on Russia's help," Lvovich said, lamenting shortages of medicines and supplies at the government hospital where she works.
"I used to be in favor of a united and independent Ukraine but not since [interim President Oleksandr] Turchynov came to power," Makarenko said after voting. "All the leaders of Ukraine in its 23 years of independence should be rounded up and put in prison.
Recent violence has turned many against the Kiev government that took power after a three-month rebellion ousted President Viktor Yanukovich, a Kremlin ally now taking refuge in Russia.
"After Odessa and Mariupol, everyone should run to vote for independence. All Donetsk people want out from the Kiev government. We're all afraid now," said a 70-year-old retired teacher in a heavy lavender wool dress despite the unseasonably warm day. Like many approached after casting their ballots, she refused to give her last name out of fear of government reprisal.
At a shopping center on the outskirts of Donetsk, only one of dozens of shoppers approached about the referendum said he had stayed away from the polling places because he considered the ballot "illegal."
Central election commission director Roman Lyagin said more than 69% of the Donetsk region's 3.5 million eligible voters had cast ballots by 4 p.m.
BBC-Will Vernon
BBC News, Mariupol
At the Primorsky polling station in Mariupol, a large crowd is gathered outside, waiting to vote. There is a crush of people inside.
Some polling stations, like this one in Mariupol, have seen long queues. BBC’s included photo. _74771975_1sakomal.jpg Thousands of Ukrainians went to vote at a polling station set up in Moscow - here people hold up their passports. BBC’s included photo._74774960_022216051-2.jpg
The Independent UK- At one polling station at a school in Donetsk, turnout was brisk in the first hour of voting. All voting slips that could be seen in the clear ballot boxes showed that self-rule had been selected.
Although the voting in the two regions with a combined population of 6.5 million appeared mostly peaceful, armed men identified as members of the Ukrainian national guard opened fire on a crowd outside the town hall in Krasnoarmeisk, and an official with the region's insurgents said people were killed. It was not clear how many.
Most present said they were voting in favour of autonomy and against the interim government headed by acting president Oleksandr Turchynov. One said she would not take part in a nationwide presidential election set for May 25.
"I don't agree with what is happening in the country. And I want some changes for the better. What is happening on May 25 is not honest, truthful or in our best interests. And that is why I am voting today," said Irina Zelyonova, 30, cradling her baby in her arms.
Enjoy DU....the wheels are coming off the MSM's bus.
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polly7
(20,582 posts)interesting comments from the people in line.
Others cast "yes" votes as what they considered a first step toward demanding more regional autonomy while remaining part of Ukraine.
Still others, frustrated by rising prices and a withered national currency, voted in favor of the vaguely worded referendum out of conviction that they can depend on neither Kiev nor Moscow to resolve their political and security problems.
The single referendum question was simple in its wording but vague in its intent: Do you support the act of independence for the People's Republic of Donetsk?
Some, like medic Ninel Lvovich, said they voted "yes" out of despair.
We want to decide our own affairs. We don't want America or Europe coming here, and I don't think we can count on Russia's help.
- Ninel Lvovich, medic who voted 'yes' in referendum
I don't understand how anyone can blame these people or deny the numbers that came out. They've been driven into a desperate situation.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)After the referendum of 11 May, the situation is as follows:
1. The illegitimate Yats government set up by the US has lost one third of the country.
2. The US has lost close to ten billion dollars in this misadventure.
3. Yats and his gang have murdered more than one hundred civilians.
4. The EU countries now know that they are not allies of the US but the f***ing partners of the US.
5. The US and the EU countries are now at the twentieth round of sanctions on Russia
6. The terrorists in Eastern Ukraine number more than five million people. They are equally divided between men, women and children. In fact the ratio of the terrorists to the assassins that come to murder them is five thousand to one. It is the first time that the quasi totality of the population of a large region are terrorists.
7. The Western media have lost their credibility in the eyes of most people, including the western population. They are no longer considered as free and independent but instead are deceptive government tools to be used.
anti partisan
(429 posts)Most people still are either apathetic or love themselves some Western corporate media.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I over did it on that a one! Peace.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)will lead them out of the jungle of dispair and into some deserved happier times. And now with Gazprom and maybe Merkel behind him Putin will get it done via Federation where Russia doesn't have to absorb all the costs of the rebuild.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)to refute this one. 
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)I'll see your Lucinda and raise you another legend....
A little dedication for the good people of East Ukraine who choose to make their own manifest destiny....whatever it may be....with lyrics for all the naysayers at DU and throughout the world.ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)gonna copy that to my website where I collect videos for memories. I was tentative about whether you even knew what country music is, let alone like it.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I can't handle the glossy shit. It makes me want to throw myself in front of a train. Here's something else quit cool.
Gary Louris of the Jayhawks....I met him once and we discussed "Master and Margharita"....no kidding....seems poetically fitting right now.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)Everyone of them a legend and deservedly so!
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Touring for decades and just making great music. She's the real deal. 
Peace.
Response to go west young man (Reply #3)
Post removed
polly7
(20,582 posts)Last edited Tue May 13, 2014, 09:53 AM - Edit history (1)
I had to check and make sure you weren't joking! ...... that's beyond sick.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)that's all I can say to a post like yours. You do realize that is tens of thousands of common people your talking about....did you look at the videos...they are families and pensioners, children and dads. They are an example to us all.....look at them voting in droves....against fascism and ethnic cleansing.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)And also, you have your "right" and "left" leaning folks over there completely flip flopped but that is okay-
Maybe if you had watched every single VICE video I posted you would be more educated on the situation, probably not on second thought LOL.
In the end, it is going to be Rus-Si-A fail for these folks
go west young man
(4,856 posts)lives are at stake...it troubles me that people like yourself seem to want to make it an amusing issue.
Response to go west young man (Reply #81)
tralala This message was self-deleted by its author.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I don't think anyone will argue that these were model elections, or even anything approaching that, but the separatists were able to get enough people out to support them at the polls to give them a veneer of legitimacy.
I don't know how this ends up, but I think Kiev is losing control of the east, one way or another.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)I keep hearing two competing interests. There are those who simply want independence from Kiev and there are others who want to join the Russian Federation. This separatist movement runs the risk of devolving into chaos and confusion even among it members if a coherent argument, and really some form of leadership, is not constructed immediately.
Right now it appears there are two factions as the nationalists and the separatists. But a third faction or others could form as indecision breeds in the separatist camp. I really don't see this going well. But I wish them the best.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)is extremely violent young people that espouse a neo-nazi ideology and enjoy violence and the other side is primarily working class mature people that never asked to be killed or ruled by neo-nazi's who burn people alive.....I would think the ones to go with might be the mature people who came out in droves to say no to fascism and ethnic cleansing.
Take a good look at the images of the elections in East Ukraine and tell me that isn't a beautiful and fantastic display of democracy in action and people coming together to say no to barbaric fascism?
Now take a good look at the Maidan protests and all the violence and lives destroyed.......and how the US backed groups went about destroying the city of Odessa....and then burning people alive, strangling pregnant women and raping and killing another woman.
Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses- http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html
Now after you have a look at those things....maybe you can tell us who might be the better group to go with. I've been debating this issue at DU for weeks and found myself banned numerous times for pointing out the obvious....yet some people are still in denial.
It always was so......we, the US government, chose to attempt to destabilize Ukraine, and backed neo-nazi far right groups, who have now proven to the world that they are ruthless fucking killers......just so we could weaken Russia....and it has fucking backfired.
So what say you, are those images of amazing people voting their "manifest destiny", whatever it may be....not something you can get on board with?
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)I believe you are doing a gross disservice to this issue by attempting to paint one side or the other as wholly wrong or right.
What I see here is a proxy war (which isn't to delegitimize the two waring factions but instead to identify the latching on to both sides by outside forces) between Western and Eastern interests and you are playing right into that puppetry. I also take issue with the tendency to dismiss accuracy in understanding or reporting for an opponent. For instance, your insistence that things like clenched and raised fists or chants in unison are somehow signs of Nazism represent a willingness on your part to embellish reality. Not all nationalists are Nazis and not all fascists are Nazis and not all anti-semites are Nazis and not all anti-Russians or anti-Soviets or anti-communists are Nazis and not every Far Right group is Nazi. Not even all of those who express sympathy with the philosophy and actions of Hitler and his regime are Nazis. And not all evil men are Nazis.
The current Ukrainian regime is guilty of many things, including ultra-nationalism, but it is not neo-Nazi. Just as the separatists are guilty of many things, including indulging the corruption of the Russian state, but they are not Russian infiltrators. You and others see too much order and conspiracy in chaos.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Last edited Tue May 13, 2014, 12:02 AM - Edit history (1)
Here's the HD vid of Odessa from the moment the Right Sector organized and instigated the extreme violence they were sent there to conduct. The video shows large swaths of violent young people throwing stones, destroying property, setting fires, making molotovs, and eventually burning the building. It is a 1 hour and 17 minute long pure joyride of New Ukraine.
Now go to the 2:29 mark- see the Right sector moving through the crowd on their way to murder?
Now go to the 4:08 mark- see the children (most of them are under 26) performing the "Seig Heil" nazi salute with their right arms raised and palms outstretched?
Now go to the 4:50 mark- see the new military issue helmets and uniforms that don't fit very well? Wonder where they got that?
Now go to the 19:32 mark- and witness their "leader" talking to the chief of police while attempting to get authorization from higher up to have access to destroy the rest of the city?
Now go to the 46:31 mark- see them making molotov cocktails to throw at people?
And finally go to the 1:12:36 mark- see the little boy and women in the window of the building these nazi bastards are about to set fire to?
Any questions now on the gross disservice you believe I am doing?
Response to go west young man (Reply #20)
Gravitycollapse This message was self-deleted by its author.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)seems you powers of observation are failing you.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Sorry. I'm placing you on ignore. Goodbye.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)And the reason why I'm being ignored now is that this demonstrates how someone without a proper understanding of many things can see Nazi symbolism in actions and objects which have historical significance as being against Nazism.
There is probably a very good reason why the helmets of the Ukrainian Army look like that and that is much of the military technology for Ukraine came from the Soviets.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Once again you have misunderstood....at post 20 in regards to the brand new helmets...my point was that "the helmets were given to Right Sector by the new government (of course they use Soviet style equipment) why wouldn't they? That video and the new uniforms are proof that the Kiev junta (who we are financing) gave the Right sector the uniforms and a logical thinking person can also derive from that video and the organized leadership, pictured in that video, that they were sent by the new military regime to conduct an operation in Odessa....
that operation, that we financed, resulted in the deaths of 46 innocent people who were burned alive. Now you didn't address the "Seig Heils" above but went into a diatribe about helmets so now that I have taken you off ignore and addressed your misguided post....can you please address the "Seig Heil NAZI SALUTES" at the 4:08 mark.....or do you not see them? Answer directly or be done as there is nothing more to say if you can't answer that simple question.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Holding a "fascist victory rally" after they just burned people alive.
At the 5:44 mark in the video....the speaker can be clearly heard calling the victims inside "Colorado Beetles"...this is Right Sector language used to dehumanize the victims and imply they must be stamped out...a typical fascist technique to refer to victims as "animals or insects" thereby dehumanizing them. It was used heavily during the Rwanda genocide when referring to victims as "Cockroaches".
2) At the exact 6:10 mark hands are raised with closed fists as they emit a unified shout. Once again typical pro nazi behavior.
3) At the 6:14 mark...they once again raise fists and shout a different unified shout (unified shouting implies they have been indoctrinated to learn these shouts which is typical, once again, of fascist groups (nazi's).
Now, please keep in mind that the ceremony is taking place right after the siege and burning of the building....the victims are still inside in various poses of death. This is easily proven by the fact that the pictures I link below are taken the very next day. So it is relatively easy to ascertain that while these neo-nazi's, which we support, are holding their "Victory" rally, that they have no compassion or remorse for the people they just killed....people who include a pregnant woman as shown by the photo evidence I have linked here and a woman who is missing her pants with her legs spread (she was raped).
Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses- http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html
Last night you posted and argued against me (before my post was hidden) when I told you that was a neo-nazi gathering.....you wrote that the fist salute they are performing is common and then posted a picture of a soccer player performing it.....what say you now, just curious....because it looks to me like people in the USA are waking up to the media lie....have you realized it yet? I await your reply.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Which was hidden for good reason.
Arguing that chanting in unison or raising clenched fists is indicative of Nazism is completely disingenuous on your part.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)the Nazi salute argument is irrefutable at this point. I have provided additional video evidence in post 20. Go to the 4:08 mark and tell me what you see now.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I'm not worried about being locked out....I would rather stand up against fascism and neo-nazi's any day, rather than lie to myself while innocent people get killed. Sorry that all this ugly truth hurts so much that you feel others shouldn't see it.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I'm still waiting on direct answer as to nazi salutes at 4:08 mark.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)You have made a number of references to a series of photographs and claims regarding what they signify.
The origin of this is a long post on a site known as "Strategic Culture Foundation'.
Here are a couple of excerpts from its narrative, which suffice to indicate its tone and tenor...
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
Among its columnists, featured prominently today, is Wayne Madsen, a fellow who gives Alex Jones a good run for the money, and whom I have not seen much of since his claims the U.S. government took thousands from new Orleans and shot them in the bayous during Hurricane Katrina.
It is follows closely the line of the Fatherland party, a 'national bolshevik' group, what might fairly be called 'neo-coms', an odd mix of nostalgia for the Soviet period and religious fervor. A far right, fascist body with roots sunk deep in a communist past. Its editor in chief is a former journalist from the Soviet period, part of 'Voice of Russia' among other things. A trained and practiced liar, come up in a school that makes our corporate media look like a kindergarten.
The commentary given on the photographs is not based on any actual investigation, nor on any forensic expertise. It is evidence of nothing but the imagination of the man who wrote it, and who wrote it service of a political end.
polly7
(20,582 posts)The photos were taken from here, why do you keep forgetting to include nsnbc international and editor Dr. Christof Lehmann?
Edited for nsnbc international by Christof Lehmann, editor-in-chief
May 10, 2014 at 12:44
On behalf of nsnbc international.
Our condolences to the families and loved ones of the victims of the massacre in the House of Trade Unions. When we are publishing these images and video, we are doing so weighting their importance for documenting historic truth. We believe that helping to raise or solve important questions about the crime may be the best way of honoring both those who were murdered and the families and loved ones who survived them. Again, our heartfelt condolences. Christof Lehmann, editor-in-chief, nsnbc international.
Dr. Christof Lehmann | Contributor, The US Independent. Mr. Lehmann is the editor-in-chief of the independent online newspaper nsnbc international. Before establishing nsnbc international in 2013, he has been working for almost three decades in psychology and as independent consultant in international politics. He is a lifetime advocate for human rights, Palestinian rights to self-determination and statehood, international justice, and the prosecution of war crimes, including those who are being committed by privileged nations. His articles are widely published in print and online media and he is a frequent guest on radio and TV programs. In February 2012 he established nsnbc international as a free to read, free to subscribe to daily online newspaper, based on the recognition that independent media and the breaking of state, corporate and foundation funded media's virtual information monopoly is a prerequisite for an informed public, a genuine political discourse and political transformation. nsnbc international can be read at www.nsnbc.me
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024939919#post31
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)This is not rocket surgery, it is just examining where things originate.
This thing originated with Strategic Culture Foundation, which is accurately described as a 'neo-com' national bolshevist fascist site, on a level of trustworthiness approximately that of Alex Jones or rumor Mill News. Mr. Jones, by the way, is a frequent guest on television and radio programs, and his articles are widely circulated on-line and in print, so do not expect lines like that in a curriculum vitae to carry any weight at all.
polly7
(20,582 posts)GRAPHIC.
http://nsnbc.me/2014/05/10/odessa-massacre-detail-investigation/
I couldn't find anything of them here http://www.strategic-culture.org/ - can you point me to the right link?
I'm not that familiar with Dr. Christof Lehmann - maybe you could provide a list of sources and contributors that are more acceptable? He doesn't sound all that bad to me. 
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)Here is the statement of origin, from your own link:
"This photo and video documentation was compiled by the editor of Strategic Culture Foundation"
The editor of Strategic Culture Foundation I have described above, in briefest thumbnail, accurately, as I have described his site and its slant and orientation.
I am happy to repeat the quotes from the narrative you are endorsing, as they establish the man who produced the thing is a conspiracist on a par with any of our home-grown 'truthers':
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
No interpretive commentary associated with statements like these can be taken seriously.
polly7
(20,582 posts)... "and reveals that the massacre was a premeditated act of mass murder – a mass casualty event, consistent with NATO Unconventional Warfare Doctrine. Text edited by nsnbc. Viewer discretion is advised – Christof Lehmann, editor-in-chief, nsnbc international." As Dr. Lehmann added the note of condolence and reasons he offered the photos, I'm quite sure he had a bit of input into it all but apparently he's beneath your contempt too.
The photos speak for themselves. That you completely ignore that kind of brutality and atrocity and work so hard to kill the messenger says it all.
No comment on the huge crowds that lined up to vote or their comments and reasons for doing so? Never mind ....
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)If you think that repeating evidence of Lehmann's evident swallowing whole of the claim the events were 'consistent with NATO Unconventional Warfare Doctrine' improves your position, or the credibility of the man you are citing, that is your affair....
Pictures do not speak for themselves, and descriptions written by people who have not conducted any actual investigation, who have no forensic credentials or experience, and have demonstrated by their own words they trade in blatant fabrications and distortions, and certainly have a political axe to grind, are worse than useless.
The whole farrago depends on people being shocked at the sight of bodies, stunned into acquiescence with a description provided simultaneous with the sight. I am not shocked, and not impressed with the various speculations and fantasies provided as captions.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Good lord.
Yes, THESE pictures do speak for themselves.
I'm not fucking shocked at the sight of corpses either, I'm sickened that anyone would commit these atrocities though and nearly as much so that you or anyone else would try to deny the terrible tragedy of it all. But ....... NATO!
Here's another mention of NATO that might have you furious http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4946300
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Or would you like to tell the other pro-union protestors I was with down at the statehouse that raising our fists and chanting "We are! Union! We are! Union!" is just typical pro-Nazi behavior? 
And since you're so hell bent on opposing fascism, I'm assuming we'll get rants from about Putin any day now.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)This is my only response to you. Answer that question please...don't avoid it....just answer it...not answering it invalidates any other argument you may put forward.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)They're finally waking up! Breaking on the US's largest social/political website the Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html
Excerpt:
Even more disconcerting has been the emergence of phone intercepts between high-ranking U.S. and Ukrainian officials which make it look as if the U.S. was basically, in the words of Princeton's Stephen Cohen, "plotting a coup d'état against the elected president of Ukraine." In other words, the U.S., in addition to providing moral support, may have paved the way for extremists to seize power in Kiev. Such a development would counter the American right's condemnation of Obama for not "engaging" in the world. The real problem is actually the administration's over-engagement in this case -- as in meddling in the affairs of another state and trying to rearrange its domestic political machinery to suit Washington's agenda.
This gambit has backfired in a number of ways. Not only has a neo-fascist-laden regime secured power in Kiev but it may have played the U.S. and its allies for fools by insinuating it would become part of the Western sphere when it really had no such designs. As Svoboda political council member Yury Noyevy baldly admitted: "The participation of Ukrainian nationalism and Svoboda in the process of EU [European Union] integration is a means to break our ties with Russia."
go west young man
(4,856 posts)still waiting on direct answer as to nazi "Seig Heil" salutes at 4:08 mark.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)I said you're dead wrong about raised fists and shouts being "typical pro-Nazi behavior."
Good God.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)your responding to the wrong video. The closed fists and clear fascist terminology are in the video at post 16.
That video incidentally features them using the term "Colorado beetle" which is fascist terminology used for dehumanizing opposition so that they are easier to kill.
You do realize that the rally in the video at post 16 is directly after they just burned alive 46 people and the cadavers are still smoldering inside the building? Corpses of even a pregnant woman and a woman who was raped? Take a look at these photos and then tell me that your OK with their little victory rally? I await your response as you are now 'on record' as having defended the people in this rally as "not " neo-nazi fascists on multiple occasions.....even though I am providing you ample video evidence to the contrary.
Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses- http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)I've never disputed that fascists and even Neo-Nazis exist in Ukraine, so that would be completely pointless.
I said you're dead wrong about the clenched fist, and you're deflecting from it.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Last edited Tue May 13, 2014, 12:25 PM - Edit history (1)
I won't be responding to you further. I think people can see clearly that your refuse to address the 4:08 mark directly. Thanks for revealing what you have.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)All I've said is that I don't deny fascists and Neo-Nazis exist in Ukraine, but that you're factually dead wrong about one of your points.
That you take issue that I don't believe one side is purely angelic and the other is pure evil is your problem.
eridani
(51,907 posts)AFter all, Putin did has them to delay the referenda.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)is that you do imply the choice is theirs.....as it should be.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)months ago. Hard to say at this point.
It is all cause and effect.
The population was not this way before the change in government. People had their disagreements, and of course nobody liked the corruption, but other than a minority of extreme nationalists the country was not so divided.
Once you realize this everything else makes sense. They are reacting to Kyiv and the threat they feel from them.
I will ask the same question I keep asking (and have only so far had one person respond to).
Why does the Kyiv government continue to incorporate Right Sector and Svoboda (neo-nazi leaders) into their executive positions. They head the Military, State Security, and the Attorney General. These are VERY powerful positions. It would have greatly calmed things to have replaced these positions with people that were not extremists. Why is Kyiv so intent on embracing extremists?
go west young man
(4,856 posts)The Russian government has identified the on the ground leader of the Odessa Massacre...filmed at the 13:10 , 13:25 and 19:32 mark in the HD Odessa video I have included here.....the man's name is Captain Mykola Nikolaevich Volkov.....he is what the Right Sector refers to as a Galacian SS Centurian....he is wanted on arrest warrants.....the Russian press is saying that during the phone call with the Chief of Police, where he is trying to influence the police chief, he is calling Kiev for authorization.....they are writing that they believe he is on the phone to Andriy Parubiy, Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine, appointed after leading the anti-government protests in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy
Here's the link to original Russian Vesti story:http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1553720&m=1&photo=1 You may want to use Google Translate. The link includes photo evidence of who Mykola Volkov is and his arrest warrant.
He is also seen shooting at people trying to escape the burning building at the 7:05 mark in the following video: shaky camera warning:
If this man, who the Russian government believes is directly connected to the Kiev government and Andriy Parubiy, who the US is directly involved with.....then we are seeing the larger picture coming together.
In the full Odessa HD video at the 2:29 mark and 4:50 mark we can see Right Sector units wearing new military fatigues and helmets....this would lend credence to the theory that the government supplied the uniforms and that Mykola Volkov, who is seen directing those Right Sector units and individuals, was working directly for that government. If this is the case, as the Russian government suspects, as shown above, then it lends strong credence to the theory that the Kiev coup government is responsible for sending those individuals to Odessa and murdering 46 Ukrainian citizens......citizens that the US falsely implied were not Ukrainian....but from neighboring Transnistria.
The US media also blatantly mislead the American people in regards to the fighting itself and the nature of the fire. A simple glance at the Odessa HD video will prove beyond all doubt that the Right Sector and nationalists that attacked the building met no resistance.....they conducted all violence against primarily helpless women, men and even children as can verified by starting the video at the 1:08:14 mark.
This was murder by fascist nationalist neo-nazi's conducted by the coup Ukrainian government who our government is supporting. This is what we have paid for with our tax dollars as shown here.
Link to the official US government website for USAID. That US government site officially states that USAID INCREASES SUPPORT FOR MEDIA AND PRESS FREEDOM IN UKRAINE
For Immediate Release
Friday, May 2, 2014
USAID Press Office
http://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/may-2-2014-usaid-increases-support-media-and-press-freedom-ukraine
This support takes place on May 2, 2014- the very same day of the Odessa massacre.....now look at what the Kiev Post publishes on May 3,2014, the very next day...
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html
Headline at link reads:
Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)
Print version
May 3, 2014, 6:45 p.m. | Ukraine — by Kyiv Post
Now take a look at the way these people died....and attempt to figure out all these "accidents"...Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses in various states of death. http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I'll be asking for military intervention against the thugs in Eastern Ukraine committing a coup de tat against the legitimate Kiev government.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)this thread, and that is what you derive from said evidence, then you and I..... have nothing to debate about.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)There was nothing to prohibit those people in line from walking back to the end of the line and voting again. There was nothing that would guarantee that those people in line were actually from Donetsk....or even Ukraine. There would be nothing that would stop election organizers from stuffing the ballot boxes as much as they want, as there would be no accounting for extra ballots.
If you actually think this was a legitimate election (supposedly 89% with supposedly 75% turnout in Donetsk), you're an even bigger fool than I figured you for.
I'm not joking when I say DU polls are more legitimate than this joke of a vote.
FSogol
(45,148 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)you support a brutal coup-sponsored 'gov't' as legitimate. 'Democracy' for millions at the barrel of a gun vs. these people who make perfect sense with their stated fears and aims lined up to vote - you might want to have a look in the mirror.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
polly7
(20,582 posts)atrocities shown in those photos?
I haven't agreed with it either .......... what's your point?
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)Because you are still clinging to the descriptions of what pictures signify which came from the same mind and pen which made these statements:
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
To cite the speculations and fantasies captioning the photographs as true is to endorse as true the general frame set for them. The thing stands or falls as a whole.
polly7
(20,582 posts)What is this, the 10th time yet? 
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)And you have not indicated disagreement with these statements, taken from a source whose description of events you endorse as true:
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
polly7
(20,582 posts)The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)You are claiming as true and accurate descriptions of events provided by a mind and pen which produced this:
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
Those descriptions are not based on any actual investigation, nor on any forensic expertise. They are fantasies and speculation, designed to take advantage of the shock value of the photographs. You cannot assign truth value to them with endorsing the rest of the man's description of events, namely the passages cited above.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I've seen a lot of dead bodies; reading the events during that time period and of the violence going on .....those photos seem quite authentic to me. Absolutely horrific. But you carry on with your little temper-tantrum over the description, because it doesn't matter either way - they were murdered in cold blood.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)The corpses are quite genuine.
The speculations and fantasies appended to them as captions are not the result of any actual investigation, nor based on any forensic expertise. They are the product of a mind and pen which characterizes the entire incident in these terms:
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
If you accept the captions as accurate, you must accept the over-view as accurate. If you recognize the overview as lies and delusion, you must accept the captions are lies and delusion.
You cannot have one without the other....
polly7
(20,582 posts)The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)You cannot wriggle off the point, no matter how you try.
You are claiming as true and accurate descriptions of events provided by a mind and pen which produced this:
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
Those descriptions are not based on any actual investigation, nor on any forensic expertise. They are fantasies and speculation, designed to take advantage of the shock value of the photographs.
If you accept the captions as accurate, you must accept the over-view as accurate. If you recognize the overview as lies and delusion, you must accept the captions are lies and delusion.
You cannot have one without the other....
polly7
(20,582 posts)The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)You are claiming as true and accurate descriptions of events provided by a mind and pen which produced this:
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
Those descriptions are not based on any actual investigation, nor on any forensic expertise. They are fantasies and speculation, designed to take advantage of the shock value of the photographs.
If you accept the captions as accurate, you must accept the over-view as accurate. If you recognize the overview as lies and delusion, you must accept the captions are lies and delusion.
You cannot have one without the other....
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)When you frame it in actual reality, however, you are the one who is supporting brutal, completely unelected leaders who have been involved in kidnapping journalists and murdering dissenting politicians.
Your "beacons of democracy" in Eastern Ukraine are Ponzi schemers and whatever the hell this guy is:
polly7
(20,582 posts)I don't have to 'frame it' any way .......... it is what it is.
I smell a hint of desperation ........ not a single RT link in this thread, eh? 
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)....won't magically make it true.
No more than the Republicans saying "Benghazi" over and over and over again won't make it an actual scandal.
Facts are facts are facts, and just because you repeat something contrary to those facts incessantly, it won't change a damn thing.
polly7
(20,582 posts)No argument there, whatsoever. I assume you were looking in that mirror when you posted the rest. Good move. 
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)Facts:
1. Victor Yanukovych voluntarily chose to leave Ukraine under his own power and accord. No members of the Ukrainian military forced him out at gunpoint. He was not arrested. He was not murdered. He was not given any sort of Ceausescu-esqe show trial and summarily executed. He left on his own willpower and is currently kicking it in Rostov-on-Don, Russia.
2. In the absence of a president willing to fulfill his presidential duties in Ukraine, an interim government was chosen. Note interim, because elections are scheduled to take place May 25 when a permanent government will then be installed.
3. All members of the Ukrainian interim government are elected members of parliament who were elected before the Euromaidan protests.
4. The ultranationalist party Svoboda currently holds only 8% of seats in the Ukrainian Rada. By virtue of the parliamentary system, it holds a grand total of 3 of the 21 total seats in the Ukrainian cabinet.
5. Valery Bolotov ("People's Governor of Luhansk"
, Denis Pushilin ("People's Governor of Donetsk" , Vyacheslav Ponomaryov ("People's Mayor of Slovyansk" and other self-declared "leaders" have not been elected. By anyone.
6. Since armed militants seized government buildings and these self-declared "leaders" have emerged, there have been dozens of kidnappings, including kidnappings of journalists (for example, American video journalist Simon Ostrovsky, who was seized under Ponomaryov's authority, beaten, interrogated and held four days before being released).
7. Volodymyr Rybak, an elected city deputy in the Eastern Ukrainian city of Horlivka and an opponent of secession, was kidnapped shortly after being seen on video being harassed by a pro-separatist mob. His body was later found in a nearby river with his stomach cut open.
8. Khrakiv mayor Hennadiy Kernes, also opposed to secession, was shot and seriously wounded in late April 2014.
Your argument that there was a "bloody coup" in Kyiv just doesn't hold up to the facts. And facts also these freedom loving separatists in Eastern Ukraine aren't the beacons of democracy you wish them to be.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)not your attempt to frame the majority by the few.....adversely look at the video in post 20.....that young violent demographic (which I have already pointed out to other posters) are who the US government is financially supporting in Kiev.....they all took buses from Kiev to Odessa before they destroyed the city and burned people alive.....who do you think paid for those new helmets and military uniform Right Sector is wearing at the 4:55 mark? Let me add the video again in case you missed it.
And check the nazi "Seig Heil" salutes at the 4:08 mark. Don't wanna leave that one out!
I think your losing this debate....any rational person can see that....the wheels are coming off the bus....I am finding more and more proof of what really happened at the major sites like the Guardian UK and Washington Post.....sites that get 3 to 5 times the views of DU threads. The American media lie is being exposed and it's tough to explain things when you've climbed into bed with neo-nazi's....that just massacred innocent people. I'll be posting starting a new thread on another bombshell on this matter relatively soon.....maybe you'd like to continue our discussion there?
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)And with supposed "Yes" votes of 89% and 96% in the respective two regions with supposed 75% turnout, that is extremely, extremely unlikely. We are talking about a region with approximately 60% of individuals identify themselves as ethnic Ukrainians. Even if there were some who thought, "What the hell, let's give Russia a try," do you really, honestly, in your heart of hearts think those numbers add up to 89% and 96%? I mean really?
But yeah, go ahead and milk Odessa for all that its worth. Odessa was horrible, no doubt, but the whole notion that it was innocent pro-Russians burnt to death by fascist, neo-Nazi Ukrainians without any sort of provocation or lead-up is the biggest line of bullshit exploitation by the pro-Russian voices.
You can say whatever you say. But if you are claiming that these were actually legitimate elections, you come out with as much credibility as you came in with.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)"Educated, middle-class people tend to support a united Ukraine, even though practically 100 percent of them are Russian-speakers. Supporters of separatism are largely comprised of pensioners and state employees craving for paternalist social state, like the Soviet Union. They are mixed with members of local criminal gangs and employees of law-enforcement agencies, which in a highly criminalised region like Donbass is largely the same social group."
"When I was talking to supporters of the separatists in Donbass, they were telling me horror stories about the Ukrainian government planning to introduce special passport stamps for people without ethnic Ukrainian heritage with the view to their further deportation, or about Kiev planning to stage an artificial famine in Russian-speaking regions. Despite the outlandish nature of these accusations, they seemed to sincerely believe that those were genuine threats."
"The essence of the battle under way in Ukraine, as well as in Russia and other former Soviet countries, is best described by arguably the most popular (and definitely the shortest) slogan of the Ukrainian pro-democracy movement. It goes "Bandu get'!", which means "Down with the gang!". By the "gang" people mean the extremely corrupt regime, linked to organised crime and backed by a cruel repressive apparatus that benefits from looting businesses and robbing individuals - a mafia state. Different versions of such authoritarian kleptocracy are now in control of all of the ex-USSR countries, except Baltic states and arguably Georgia.
"In Ukraine, the popularity of this slogan spans across the traditional ethno-linguistic divide between the Ukrainian-speaking West and the Russophone Southeast. Euromaidan protest that started last November and resulted in the ousting of President Viktor Yanukovich united both Ukranian - and Russian-speakers. Similarly at Moscow's Bolotnaya Square protests in 2012, the same anti-corruption and pro-democracy slogans united people across the political spectrum - from the extreme left to liberals to the extreme right."
go west young man
(4,856 posts)"but the whole notion that it was innocent pro-Russians burnt to death by fascist, neo-Nazi Ukrainians without any sort of provocation or lead-up is the biggest line of bullshit exploitation by the pro-Russian voices."
Now do the viewers a favor and go to the 1:08:19 mark in the video....notice there is no resistance around the tents in front of the building.....notice the hordes of people swarming on the tents? Where are the pro Russians you speak of? They are not there. They ran inside the building to save their lives.
Now go to the 1:12:36 mark....see the little boy and the women in the window? Is this the pro-Russian resistance your writing about? Now pay attention to the people on the roof at 1:14:29....notice the obvious red arm bands as they throw their molotov cocktails at the tents which are then set on fire? Notice that after the tents are alight they discontinue throwing molotov's even though they seem to have plenty. No other Molotov's are thrown from the roof in this video after the tents are set alight.
Right Sector is well known for using "false flags and agent provocateurs, it's one of their primary weapons in the chaos, they have been implementing. Considering they only burned the tents with the Molotov's and that they were obviously in the building at various times conducting murder...I think it reasonable to assume that there is a very good probability they had access to the roof and could have conducted this maneuver without the people inside the building ever knowing what was taking place.
The scenario is similar to what I believe happened at Maidan in regards to sniper killings...something I posted heavily on back in February and March.
Ukraine's grassy knoll (Graphic) evidence police weren't the only snipers. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024616147
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)Good to have it out of your own mouth.
You have been trotting out the line derived from Strategic Culture Foundation for some while now, so the question is appropriate for you, too.
Do you agree with these claims?
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)....and all acts of aggression against the Pro-Ukrainian side in Odessa was simply a Right Sector "false flag" (including, presumably the rooftop shooters at the rally that immediately preceded the fire at the Trade Union building), such a theory makes no logical sense whatsoever.
Why? Because if the trade union fire was an engineered massacre by the Right Sector, it would only serve to enflame pro-Russian sentiment both inside and outside Ukraine, and could even have provoked formal action by the Russian military. Not to mention that the pro-Russian folks would exploit and propagandize the ever living shit out of the apparent unprovoked murder of innocents....which they've really done anyways, even without any hardcore proof of a "false flag operation".
So a "false flag" operation by the pro-Ukrainian side would make zero logical sense. It would go against every single interest of the Ukrainian government and the cause for Ukrainian unity.
Occam's Razor has left you a bloody mess.
The thing is, I have no problem blaming the pro-Ukrainian side for a portion of the Odessa violence. There were many of them too prone to anger and mob mentality that afternoon, when they should have just gone home after being shot at. But you don't seem equally inclined to acknowledge that this was a two-sided event, and instead insist upon a wild narrative that you can then exploit to no end.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)you were correct about your Russia military intervention theory (East Ukraine comes to mind-how did that work out?)....you... actually admitting there was no real resistance by the Pro Russians at the building might add a modicum of believability to your synopsis/Occam take.
Take a look around the tents....see the flowers and nice signage...see the organization that went into that...the people that put up those tents, placed those flowers and made those signs were the good people of Odessa (who simply had pro Russian views), they wanted to hang on to their city the way it was.....those people were then pelted with molotov cocktails, terrorized, at least one was raped and another, who was pregnant, was strangled and most were burned to death.
Believe me, if you can't imagine that the people who would do that to them, are not capable, ignorant or stupid enough to conduct a false flag op that may be against their own long term interests (especially with so much video about)- then I can't help you out with your inability to understand that possibility.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)You parrot the line put out by Strategic Culture Foundation, in describing events.
The claims you make come from a narrative containing these statements:
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
Do you agree with them?
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Yes.
It really isn't that complicated.
Again, why not remove the extremists Right Sector and Svoboda Leaders from their powerful positions in the executive branch? Why is the government so comfortable with Neo-Nazi's? Do you have a good answer for that?
Can you at least admit that might cause backlash amongst those who are targets of these groups?
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)"Educated, middle-class people tend to support a united Ukraine, even though practically 100 percent of them are Russian-speakers. Supporters of separatism are largely comprised of pensioners and state employees craving for paternalist social state, like the Soviet Union. They are mixed with members of local criminal gangs and employees of law-enforcement agencies, which in a highly criminalised region like Donbass is largely the same social group."
"When I was talking to supporters of the separatists in Donbass, they were telling me horror stories about the Ukrainian government planning to introduce special passport stamps for people without ethnic Ukrainian heritage with the view to their further deportation, or about Kiev planning to stage an artificial famine in Russian-speaking regions. Despite the outlandish nature of these accusations, they seemed to sincerely believe that those were genuine threats."
"The essence of the battle under way in Ukraine, as well as in Russia and other former Soviet countries, is best described by arguably the most popular (and definitely the shortest) slogan of the Ukrainian pro-democracy movement. It goes "Bandu get'!", which means "Down with the gang!". By the "gang" people mean the extremely corrupt regime, linked to organised crime and backed by a cruel repressive apparatus that benefits from looting businesses and robbing individuals - a mafia state. Different versions of such authoritarian kleptocracy are now in control of all of the ex-USSR countries, except Baltic states and arguably Georgia.
"In Ukraine, the popularity of this slogan spans across the traditional ethno-linguistic divide between the Ukrainian-speaking West and the Russophone Southeast. Euromaidan protest that started last November and resulted in the ousting of President Viktor Yanukovich united both Ukranian - and Russian-speakers. Similarly at Moscow's Bolotnaya Square protests in 2012, the same anti-corruption and pro-democracy slogans united people across the political spectrum - from the extreme left to liberals to the extreme right."
newthinking
(3,982 posts)The Pew polls released last week indeed still show a lot of support for staying part of Ukraine. I am not sure if anyone is really advocating annexation. Even the vote was about autonomy.
I would love to hear your argument for keeping Leaders of Right Sector and Svoboda in those positions in the executive. That is definitely contributing to what is going on and it is puzzling why Kyiv is so attached to these leaders of hate groups??
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)They have a presence at present for several reasons.
Probably the most important is that they did provide a good portion of the fighting element that won out over the police. That gives them chits to call in, in dealing with more respectable types who could not produce by the way of street fighters.
It also gives them ground from which they can say to the rest that there could be a lot of trouble if some accommodation was not made, and some recognition of their contribution not forth-coming.
They have some representation in the Rada, and so some legitimate role, like it or not, in forming coalition for governing. In multi-party systems, small parties can often gain ministerial concessions seemingly out of proportion to their number, because they are necessary to a governing majority.
I would be surprised if these people last much past the national election in late May, or at any rate, I would have been surprised if they had, had conditions remained more or less settled so a national vote could be held. Russian interference may have put paid to that.
"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable."
newthinking
(3,982 posts)It is either that or they are comfortable with them. Either way that essentially has caused most of the problems and destroys any legitimacy.
Neo-Nazi leaders are **never** OK in powerful positions over those they HATE!
I think you may be starting to understand why this is all falling out the way it is...?
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)Owe much of anything in their origin to to the presence of these people in the Kiev government.
The secessionist insurrection in the east is a creation of Russia, procured by its intelligence services, whose operatives are openly in place.
What is alleged regarding the overthrow of Yanukovyk, with not a shred of real evidence to back the claim, is in fact what is now going on in the east of Ukraine.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)Whether they were residents of the region, or even of the country. Whether they had voted once, or they had gone back in line to vote multiple times, or whether they had gone from polling location to polling location.
Who knows, maybe they were all legitimate. But even so, we'd never really know because there were no international observers allowed for the voting process. And those holding the vote didn't seem to keen on the media covering the vote:
Which begs the very real question, what is there to hide?
And then you have the claimed 75% turnout, which is extremely dubious given the current condition of the region. And even if you believe that to be a real figure, it doesn't jive with the overwhelming "approval" of the referendum--89% in Donetsk, 96% in Lugansk....given that ethnic Ukrainians are a majority in those regions and ethnic Russians are a minority.
So no, it was not a dependable vote, to which even you seem to agree it wasn't. So if it wasn't dependable, why are you still insisting it is reflective on the vast majority of the people?
If you look at the recent Pew poll, you'll see that while many in Eastern Ukraine weren't too fond of the current government in Kyiv, nonetheless by a supermajority margin they still wanted to remain part of Ukraine.
This "referendum" was conducted under the most dubious of circumstances and jives with every bit of logic necessary to conclude it was in any way a people's vote.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)vote by default? They don't have to sign up there (Like here).
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)Anyone can just walk up and vote?
Please, proceed governor.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)as far as voter turn out goes....check out AP's written words. They refute your skeptical claim.
Are you seriously believing that AP is wrong on this one? What about the others? Are they all wrong or are you just ahead of the curve? maybe you should let them know what you think?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)of the people in Ukraine (including Crimea) wanted to rejoin Russia, why didn't Putin avoid aggression and work with the international community to put it to a vote? He could have done it on the up-and-up with monitors and a recorded vote. He could have done much to prevent further violence. Had he chosen that path, there would have been no sanctions, no doubt and he would have earned legitimacy among all Ukrainians and the world.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Putin is not responsible for the May 11th election, he called on the Donetsk republic to cancel it. You are distracting from this thread by suggesting he was behind it.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)....until all was said and done, when he acknowledged the opposite.
In other words, Putin's word is worth jack shit.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)long as Putin disagrees.
Guess what, if he announces prior to the election that he hopes it doesn't happen, this is objectively an attempt to stop it (no matter what he secretly thinks). There's no telepathy for him to communicate a secret message to hundreds of thousands who then turned out for the election despite hearing him say they shouldn't.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)He just proclaimed that maybe they should delay it. And that was it. A single proclamation. Putin's words. Words that mean just about as much as Putin's previous denial that his military didn't play a role in Crimea.
Of course, speaking of making up fantasy bullshit, have any more posts for us on how there was a western sponsored coup in Ukraine?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)He makes a statement saying it shouldn't happen, just like the Western powers and orgs did. What else should he do, send in troops to stop the Eastern Ukrainians from voting?
And then those people just went and did it anyway! If they'd been ethnic Ukrainians overthrowing an elected government in Kiev, you'd be calling it a "democratic revolution."
I didn't say there was a Western-sponsored coup in Ukraine. It was Arseniy Yatsenyuk himself informing you and the world that he's sponsored by NATO, the State Department, and the CIA ("NED" .
He seems eager to advertise it:
Partners of the Ukrainian coup d'etat prime minister...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024946300
It will serve him well once he's set up at Harvard or Oxford or wherever else his sinecure for Service to Banksterdom awaits.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)You've been spewing the "western sponsored coup" theory for weeks here.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Damn, "cut your bullshit," now how am I going to answer that? So sorry to be disturbing your fantasy. Carry on.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)See where that takes you.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)it produces entertaining conniptions on your side. You can't handle the truth?
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts).....and for all the talk of Victoria Nuland's cookies and $5 billion and neo-Nazis, no one has actually proven any direct evidence that there was in fact a coup, western sponsored or otherwise, it seems like you are the one desperately trying to avoid the truth.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)He broke kayfabe, he violated omerta, and went ahead and announced in advance that he was trying to run a bankers' junta on behalf of NATO, the State Department, CIA, and oligarch friends.
Right here -- he seems eager to advertise it:
Partners of the Ukrainian coup d'etat prime minister...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024946300
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)The lead up to the western sponsored coup of Ukraine, according to JackRiddler:
1. Yatsenyuk's website/Nuland's cookies/John McCain's farts/Neo-Nazis doing neo-Nazi stuff/$5 Billion
2. ??????
3. Coup
Gotcha.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)I'll take my own writing over your lame attempts to ridicule, which show only your refusal to understand obvious concepts.
Also, the "cookies" are your thing. Nuland made clear what she was doing on tape, when she started picking the future cabinet for "Yats" in front of her lackey.
Your version is something like this:
1. Putin very bad!
2. Ukrainians must ban Russian language for freedom!
3. America completely uninvolved! Except to be nice! Cookies!
4. Evil Pro-Russians! Evil Putin! So eeeevil!!
Meanwhile, thanks for all the kicks to this important thread showing what's really going on in Eastern Ukraine as the people there face down the U.S.-backed coup regime.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)An alternative to the generally accepted premise that what happened in Ukraine was not a "coup" as that word is defined, but rather that the former President Yanukovych choose to voluntarily flee the country under his own power after the Maidan protests got more and more heated. And that no one from the West forcibly removed him from his office and the country or otherwise told him he must leave.
Your argument--the conspiracy theory--is that there was a coup, and that Western powers were behind it.
Now how this "coup" actually happened, you've never once explained. Did Victoria Nuland wiggle her nose? Did she waive a magic wand? Did she make a wish in a fountain or blow out candles in her birthday cake? What happened in between the phone call where Nuland simply expresses her desire of who she would prefer to see in power, and Yanukovych actually leaving Ukraine, and under what circumstances did Yanukovych actually leave Ukraine?
Conspiracy theories in and of themselves aren't horrible, but one thing remains about them: The burden to prove the conspiracy theory rests on the person asserting it. Not the person who is skeptical of it in favor of the generally accepted narrative of events.
So, Jack. Have at it. Prove me the conspiracy. Show me how this "coup" actually happened, and how it was actually a real coup as the word is defined.
Go ahead and prove me wrong. Don't say you wouldn't like that.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)What it is not clear he understands is what constitutes evidence....
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)And he's been around but doesn't feel the need to answer, for whatever reason.
I'm very tempted to quote Adlai Stevenson at the UN.....
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)Doesn't seem to want to answer, though.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)and all your ridiculous points and I do believe he uses the word Coup on quite a few occasions here.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487&commentpage=8
In Ukraine, the US is dragging us towards war with Russia
Washington's role in Ukraine, and its backing for the regime's neo-Nazis, has huge implications for the rest of the world
Excerpt:
Washington's role in Ukraine is different only in its implications for the rest of us. For the first time since the Reagan years, the US is threatening to take the world to war. With eastern Europe and the Balkans now military outposts of Nato, the last "buffer state" bordering Russia – Ukraine – is being torn apart by fascist forces unleashed by the US and the EU. We in the west are now backing neo-Nazis in a country where Ukrainian Nazis backed Hitler.
Having masterminded the coup in February against the democratically elected government in Kiev, Washington's planned seizure of Russia's historic, legitimate warm-water naval base in Crimea failed. The Russians defended themselves, as they have done against every threat and invasion from the west for almost a century.
But Nato's military encirclement has accelerated, along with US-orchestrated attacks on ethnic Russians in Ukraine. If Putin can be provoked into coming to their aid, his pre-ordained "pariah" role will justify a Nato-run guerrilla war that is likely to spill into Russia itself.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)First, this is an op-ed piece. And while The Guardian is a perfectly legitimate news source, opinions published in its op-ed section are just that: opinions. And Pilger's op-ed piece is just the same old, same old rehash of the tired talking points that have been repeated ad nauseum: that the change in power was a "coup", that the mob violence in Odessa was a one-sided "massacre", that the West was the one pulling the strings, yada, yada yada.....
Secondly, the fact that Pilger uses the word "coup" numerous times in his op-ed piece doesn't actually mean a coup in fact took place. For example, I could continuously refer to you as a purple elephant. Every time I come across you, I could insist that you are not a human being in fact a purple elephant. Now, does the fact I repeated call you a purple elephant actually make you one?
The question I posed to Mr. Riddler--and to which he has yet to answer me--is proof that what actually happened in Ukraine was a "coup", and specifically one that was sponsored by the West. If one considers the situation in February 2014, the flash point of the change in power appears to be the moment Yanukovych choose to flee Kyiv on February 21st. So we have to consider under what circumstances did Yanukovych leave that evening? Was he forced out at gun point? Was he kidnapped against his will?
Because if you look at Webster's definition of "Coup d'état", it clearly reads:
: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat
First of all, no one can claim the Maidan protests were "a small group". There were hundreds of thousands of them on the square. So whatever motivation those protests may have given Yanukovych to say, "Screw you guys, I'm going home," right then and there the definition of "coup" is inapplicable.
Secondly, one has to consider violence in the change of power. So was Yanukovych kidnapped, thrown in a sack, and taken away that night? Did someone stick a gun to his head and pull him away? The fact of the matter is, video from the Yanukovych residence doesn't seem to support that. In it, you can see members of Yanukovych's entourage casually packing up his valuable possessions and two helicopters flying away without any sort of opposition or sense of immediate urgency.
So if a characteristic of "coup" is that they are typically characterized by force, then no, again the situation does not fall into the proper usage of that word.
Who knows, maybe there are facts that I'm missing or that I'm not aware of that are a game changer. Maybe there is something you can point to that show definitively that Yanukovych did not voluntarily leave on his accord and willpower but was kidnapped and removed against his will. And maybe there's some evidence that shows that western agents were the ones doing the kidnapping.
But so far there's been nothing. Nada. Nilch.
And posting someone's op-ed filled with tired, unsubstantiated talking points and multiple uses of the word "coup" is not proof positive that a coup actually was at hand back in February 2014.
So yes, again, sigh.....
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Stephen Cohen of the Nation now fully onboard for investigation of the massacre at Odessa on Democracy Now with Amy Goodman (you probably don't know who she is either).
Judging from your ignorant desire to keep defending the indefensible I'm relatively sure you don't know who John Pilger is.....or how he is recognized by serious journalism outfits around the world. I'll leave the research (as if one could call what you do research) up to you. Pay attention. The wheels are coming off.
And to make your day so much brighter....I just wanted to let you know this same information throughout all this linked evidence I have been posting has been going up on the Guardian Uk, Washington Post, NY Times and Asia Times Online forums.....where page views are 3-5 times greater than DU views.
You may want to establish some accounts there so you can truly get to work.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)I asked whether there was evidence of a western sponsored coup in Kyiv in February 2014.
You reply by posting various narratives on the mob violence that occurred in May 2014 in Odessa.
I'm sensing a disconnect here.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)slowly but surely.....check post 146.
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)So far you've just posted a bunch of Odessa non-sequiturs.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Ukraine civil war fears mount as volunteer units take up arms
Source: The Guardian UK
Kiev's "anti-terrorism operation" in the east of the country involves units of the army, the police, special forces and the national guard, which is partly made up of volunteers drawn from those who participated in the Maidan protests in Kiev.
Andriy Parubiy, head of Ukraine's national security and defence council, told the Guardian that these were all coordinated from a single anti-terrorism command centre, but numerous sources on the ground attest to the fact that coordination is poor, and there are major concerns over how ready the volunteer brigades are for combat. In addition to the difficulties of coordinating such a diverse range of paramilitary groups, there has also been concern at the extreme nationalist element among those fighting.
Parubiy himself has an extremely dubious past, having set up the neo-fascist Social National party of Ukraine together with the current leader of far-right Svoboda, Oleh Tyahnybok, in the early 1990s. While there has been little evidence that the militias have been motivated by any kind of far-right ideology when fighting in east Ukraine, there is no doubt that radicals have been the people most willing to fight, and this has led to a number of situations which appear to be well beyond the bounds of normal military behaviour.
In one incident, the radical politician Oleh Liashko was shown in footage that emerged last week humiliating captured insurgent and self-proclaimed defence minister of the "Donetsk People's Republic", Igor Kakidzyanov. A video of the interrogation, where Kakidzyanov was shown in his underwear with his hands bound, circulated widely on social media and was promoted by Liashko himself. Posters promoting Liashko's presidential campaign read: "Death to the Occupiers!" and are widely displayed all over cities across western Ukraine.
Speaking to the Guardian by telephone, Liashko said he conducted the interrogation because he wanted to find out what the motivations and ideas of Kakizdyanov were. He said he did not think it inappropriate that he was allowed to carry out the interrogation, nor that the questioning took place with Kakidzyanov stripped to his underwear.
On the pro-Russia side, the gunmen regularly speak of the Ukrainian army as "fascists". Rumours that Ukrainians are forced to go through psychological training that allows them to kill unarmed women and children with no remorse are widespread.
Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/15/ukraine-civil-war-fears-mount-volunteer-units-kiev-russia
Tommy_Carcetti
(42,828 posts)Yesterday you were talking about Odessa. Today you are talking about the military campaign in the east of the country.
How about what happened on February 21-22, 2014? Where was the coup that forcibly removed Yanukovych from power?
If you don't know, you don't know. You can admit it.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)On Tue May 13, 2014, 08:49 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Look at all those terrorists!!!!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024944357
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Pro Russian ans anti US nonsense propaganda. This is all this poster is posting about!
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue May 13, 2014, 09:02 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There are two sides to a story and then there is the truth of the matter. We will decide. Okay?
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post is entirely appropriate and highly educational. Shame on the alerter!
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Many people on this board post information that can be called propaganda depending on the point of view of the reader. As I read through this thread, I saw discourse that stated everyone's case with explanation and backup documentation. Yes it got testy but when does it not? If this is propaganda, refute it. Just alerting on the OP because you don't agree with it is silly... refute it with facts if that's how you feel.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Unlike the typical "Comrade Snowden had boxes in his garage and loves Putin" stuff, this is not obviously propaganda, as far as I can tell.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I was sent to jury the other day and was hidden due to people not wanting to believe their lying eyes on some of this easily verifiable information. To prove my honesty I am posting the jury results from my "Odessa File" thread that was hidden.
The Odessa File"- full video evidence US financed group massacred Pro-Russia Ukrainian citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024940436
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
The OP makes highly inflammatory, anti US government claims without backing them up with reliable sources. The video evidence he provides does nothing to show that the US funded these killings.
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sun May 11, 2014, 10:23 PM, and voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with the alerter, unsupported allegations and The Washington Times and Global Research are not acceptable sources here
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: possible woo - inflammatory, significant claims, no real reliable backing facts - prefer it being hidden.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It's RT bullshit. RT should be banned from DU completely. RT is as bad if not worse than the woo conspiracy topics.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Why not show proof in the thread if you feel this poster is being misleading. At least, write a more compelling alert.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Troll. Hide it.
Note the alerters comments and juror #2's stated reason is that the sources were not valid. The information that those "sources" reported on is linkable and is the official US government website for USAID. That US government site officially states that USAID INCREASES SUPPORT FOR MEDIA AND PRESS FREEDOM IN UKRAINE
For Immediate Release
Friday, May 2, 2014
USAID Press Office
http://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/may-2-2014-usaid-increases-support-media-and-press-freedom-ukraine
This is the very same day of the Odessa massacre.....now look at what the Kiev Post publishes the very next day...
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html
Headline at link reads:
Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)
Print version
May 3, 2014, 6:45 p.m. | Ukraine — by Kyiv Post
Now to me that looks like we just financed a media organization that spreads the lie that people who were murdered by neo-nazi fascists (as proven by my Pro Ukrainian rally videos above) just "accidentally" killed themselves. The wheels are coming off the bus.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)we just financed the cover up of mass murder and you say whatever.....what happened to DU...we used to stand for something at this site....myself and many others fought against the lie of the Iraq war and now there is clear evidence our government and media have been lying to us and people like yourself say....whatever. I posted this same tidbit at the Guardians main stream yesterday and had 80 likes in an hour. I'm wondering what the fuck happened here at DU....where did all the compilers, investigators and truth seekers go? I'm only seeing a small portion of them now.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)You have stated above, in your No. 88 here:
'Right Sector is well known for using "false flags and agent provocateurs, it's one of their primary weapons in the chaos, they have been implementing.'
That is the 'truther' chant, and as nonesensical here as it is in the Creative Speculation forum.
You have frequently treated as true account claims originating on Strategic Culture Foundation regarding events in Oddessa, claims made with the framework laid out in these quotes:
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
Do you agree with these claims?
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Over Military, State Security, and The attorney general. These are very powerful positions and that is fact.
These are not the equivalent of the "Tea Party" or "libertarians", these are HATE groups.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)I have no objection to repeating them:
'The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
Do you consider these true descriptions of what occured in Oddessa?
newthinking
(3,982 posts)I mentioned nothing about Odessa.
Heads of Defense and State Security and the Attorney general. That fact is not able to be argued. I have yet to hear anyone justify it, why? Because there is no justifying it.
Most of the arguments here try to find ways to avoid talking about the very inconvenient truth that there are extremist Hate group leaders in places of high power in Kyiv.
Again, can you explain that?
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)Not answering it does not suffice.
It was asked of a person who seems to agree with that sort of thing, you commented on it that there was no need for conspiracism when fascists were in government, and so I asked if you agree with the false flag claims regarding Oddessa. Because obviously, the presence of Right Sector types, whether in government or in the street, does not constitute evidence for, let alone proof of, the claims made in these quotes:
The perpetrators “set the scene” as typical in Hollywood-style US/NATO/Israeli false flag operations. The massacre in Odessa, the arrangement of the bodies, is bearing the hallmarks of a “mass casualty event” consistent with US/NATO unconventional warfare doctrine.'
'Note: according to one of the main versions of what happened on May 2 in Odessa, the Right Sector thugs performed a false flag operation. They put St. George’s Ribbons (symbols of anti-Maidan federalism supporters) and organized violent provocations against Maidan supporters (i.e. against their own allies), in order to later blame anti-Maidan supporters and make them look responsible for death of such many people.'
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Doesn't matter.
There is a huge moral difference between two groups that are armed getting into a fight, vs a hate crime which is based on premeditated revenge and crosses a number of serious boundaries (adding fuel to a hot fire, chanting death to the enemy, firing on people trying to leave, beating people after they fall from the windows.
But I would find particularly awkward indeed to have to support a government that had Neo-Nazi leaders in high power. That in itself in indefensible. Or at least it was a decade or so ago.
My points in all this are much further to the middle than many here. I simply don't buy the idea that Kyiv are the "good guys" and that is pretty supportable simply with who is in positions of power, without even having to debate the prevalence of Right Sector violence.
My argument is that we stop presenting a false "black/white" narrative and recognize that the there are extremists on both sides, as wel as innocent people on both sides, and there needs to be compromise.
The Magistrate
(94,349 posts)There is no real question, not out in the real world, that a 'Unity' march was attacked by secessionists, that the secessionists lost the mob fight, and the victorious mob pressed on to do something terrible, as mobs in maddened state will do.
I have said before what I say now. I have only two strong positions in this.
I oppose Russia's attempt to seize portions of Ukraine. I consider it a very dangerous thing to start unraveling the map of Europe by force.
I oppose the circulation of lies and distortions calculated to assist Russia's seizure of portions of Ukraine here, and their presentation as honest and accurate accounts of events and commentary on them. They are no such thing, and people who call themselves leftists should have more sense.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)the conversation.
I wonder why?
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I've taken a beating here lately....but the cause is a worthy one...and I believe (due to the amount of cameras on the ground)...that the truth will win out eventually...it's 2014....people are seeing things in real time and even the MSM is unable to keep up with the misinformation they are putting out.
The people of East Ukraine are not just fighting back......they are filming back.....they are an inspiration to us all as they decide their own destiny and choose not to live under the rule of violent murdering fascists who are backed by their unelected government and us unfortunately. I'm proud to stand up for them as they chart the course of their new country. That is what being a good American and Citizen of the World is all about.
It's not Russia vs the US....it's humanity vs. repression, ethnic cleansing and hatred. We are on the wrong side of history and have danced with the devil (so to speak) one time too many I believe....this time it's obvious, there's no going back.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)I can't decide.
Really, it is hard to see what is what and who is who. This is something, IN MY OPTION, that only those involve can and will ever know and work out. It is way to messy and we better stay out of it.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)over Defense, State Security, and the Attorney General (amongst other positions). Those are very powerful positions and these are HATE groups (not "just" rightests).
It would be the equivilent to having one of the leaders of the KKK over homeland security and in the Judiciary. I am not sure how that is able to be excused (by some here), it is pretty straight forward?
go west young man
(4,856 posts)have simply put their "Russia blinders" on....they can't let go of that Cold war mentality and now the neocons have got what they wanted (sadly - with Obama's help). I don't know how or why he let Nuland and the neocons have their cake....Russia isn't going away...they are a nation of 153 million people, they are here to stay....weakening them economically may seem valuable for some in the short run but recent history has shown that Russia is very good at adaptability. They adopted capitalism too well and have had steady economic growth....that is what the 1%, MIC, and the powers that be couldn't stand.....they wanted that Russian and Ukrainian market share....and now it looks extremely in jeopardy. That is the new reality.
In the meantime the administration is left trying to explain why we are in bed with neo-nazis and the peaceful people of East Ukraine should not be denied the right to their own "Manifest Destiny". The numbers don't lie. As Freddie Mercury sang "they want to break free".
go west young man
(4,856 posts)the Russian government has identified the on the ground leader of the Odessa Massacre...filmed at the 13:10 , 13:25 and 19:32 mark in the HD Odessa video I have included here.....the man's name is Captain Mykola Nikolaevich Volkov.....he is what the Right Sector refers to as a Galacian Centurian....he is wanted on arrest warrants.....the Russian press is saying that during the phone call with the chief of police, where he is trying to influence the police chief, that he is calling Kiev for authorization.....they are writing that they believe he is on the phone to Andriy Parubiy, Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine, appointed after leading the anti-government protests in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy
Here's the link to original Russian Vesti story:http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1553720&m=1&photo=1 You may want to use Google Translate.
The link includes photo evidence of who Mykola Volkov is and his arrest warrant.
951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)It's not freedom until the people in that video are living in bombed out shacks, living in tent cities and begging for UN supplies.
Iraq, Egypt, Syria are shining examples of what happens when Freedom comes a-knockin'
go west young man
(4,856 posts)maybe once they get the gas turned on they will know the true taste of freedom....maybe they should ask this guy....
http://burisma.com/hunter-biden-joins-the-team-of-burisma-holdings/
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Last edited Wed May 14, 2014, 07:26 PM - Edit history (2)
Right Sector and the neo-nazi rallies from the beginning of events in Ukraine. This information should also make those individuals who believed the Maidan protests were peaceful and well intentioned and that the violence levels were just the norm, think twice......this is what those Right Sector individuals did when they got inside the government building in Odessa, as told by a woman who was trapped with these murderers and watched many people die at their hands.
Eyewitness speaks of horror at Odessa Trade Unions Assembly Hall on 2 May 2014 | Русская весна
An eyewitness provides evidence of murders and horrorful crimes committed by the ultra-nationalists and nazi agressors at Odessa Trade Unions Assembly Hall on 2 May 2014.
Transcribed and translated from
i cannot specify the exact daytime…
Here is what happened:
when i was at the Cathedral square («Sobornaja ploschadi») i saw right in front of my eyes
the ultra-nationalists cutting the throat of a 40 year old man.
they shouted to him «Slava Ukraine!», and he told them «i am just an Odessa man»
so they pulled him to the ground and cut his throat
i felt so shocked i immediately experienced an urge to escape, so i ran to a taxi and went to «Kulikovo pole» place.
when i arrived, i saw tents surrounded by barriers of tires, sand bags, some posters — covering the entire perimeter.
the events developed very rapidly from that point on: i heard someone say that the Assembly building may provide
a safer protection against an incoming attack, and then people started carrying their stuff
from the tents inside the Assembly building.
aggressors arrived on white-and-black painted minibuses, although some of them might have taken different means to ge to the place.
once i was inside the Assembly building, i saw mid-aged and young people, men and women, as well as some adolescent children.
nobody of the people running for cove inside the Assembly building had guns or any weapons, no people were armed.
i remember a big lobby leading to a staircase and some space to the left where one could run,
i don’t remember any spaces providing any escape routes to the right.
most people i saw immediately took to the staircase and went upstairs.
i did not run with the majority, i went to the left into a corridor running between a number of office rooms.
i entered one of the rooms, don’t remember the office number, but i remember seeing a big bag stuck with (wooden?) poles.
men were all coming to that bag, women were dividing available
first aid items such as anti-ceptics, lint, surgical cotton etc. into smaller portions
and sharing those.
opposite to this office room, there was an auxilliary exit, or escape exit from the building, and its door was not locked.
men tried to put office boxes next to the door, but that just wasn’t enough. basically, one could use that door quite easily…
that was my memory of the 1st floor.
i then went up to 2nd floor and saw people trying to fortify the walls between offices, which i did not understand for i thought
that kind of activity might obstruct effective escape if/when escaping becomes necessary.
also, as soon as i could glance out of 2nd floor windows, i realised that the Assembly building is completely surrounded by the ultras/fascists.
another fact: there was absolutely no water in the building.
the water was cutoff before the ultras/fascists began their attacks, before the bottles with flammable liquids and «Molotov cocktails» got thrown into the building
i saw some women succeeded to fill their bottles with water, and some of them were poring this water trying to cover under-window space on the outside.
i remember from school that flammable substances do not mix with water, creating a thin film on top of water,
assuming the water layer keeps spreading, the flame is bound to be spreading at the same speed, which is higher than without the water layer.
i objected to these women’s poring the water out, and that process was stopped.
then i went up to 3rd floor, looked around…
i realised that some space between the 2nd and 3rd floor is getting burned.
timewise, the burning started about 30 minutes after we got inside the Assembly building altogether.
thinking that the fire is bound to spread up, i decided to go down.
then i heard heavy noise and shooting, i mean, they were shooting inside the building.
there happened to be a man with a fire extinguisher, who saw me trying to go downstairs. he stopped me by saying
«the ultra-nationalists „Pravyj Sektor“ is already there, don’t go down»
i said «isn’t that too fast?» he said «don’t go down»
i decided to follow his advice
as i went back up to 3rd floor, a very thin man from lower floors came up, saying the ultra-nationalists were taking over, defenders were outnumbered and required support.
i saw 4 people go downstairs with him, i did not go.
did those defenders have weapons?
no, none of the defending people had any weapons
i then saw a man who burned… right, that was a male body, then a female body was brought from the 4th floor
then there came a thick smoke mixture with gas — i can’t describe it in specific details, but i could not stay surrounded by this mixture for more than a couple minutes
do you know what was burning, what caused this kind of smoke?
no, i don’t know… but a couple minutes in this smoke — and you stop realising wat goes on, you lose ability to think or recognise things:
as soon as i realised that i start experiencing these things, i put a breething mask and ran away.
while running, i passed a staircase and heard a man shouting from below «ultras are coming up, save yourselves»
i then entered an office on the 3rd floor… some 33x-something number, maybe 336
the room had 10 men and 4 women including myself.
it was something like a «first aid room»
as soon as i got in, 2 men were brought in, and we checked to learn that they had no pulse, no vitals
we recognised that they were dead already and the 2 bodies were put along a wall
maybe 10 mins after that a masked guy briefly got in to inform us that the ultras/fascists were about to reach the 3rd floor
i remeber that it was a masked guy because people i saw up to that point iether had no masks at all, or had some light respiratory masks
as soon as we heard that man, the men in the room began to fortify the room entrance with storage shelves etc. — as much as we could.
they could not close it completely as there was some gap space between the shelves and the upper edge of the entrance.
thene there were several minutes of pure shootouts, no voices, numerous gun shots in the corridor and nothing else.
then we heard somebody asking us to let them in, they said they were being killed and asked for cover and help.
men were trying to evaluate whether the request was valid or not, but finally decided to ease defenses and try to check.
as soon as they opened 5–7 cantimeter gap by moving shelves sideways, we got immediately shot from the outside.
i remember looking into the eyes of a masked guy from the corridor, and he was looking into my eyes, as i heard something very quickly passing near my ear with a high pitch sound.
i turned around and saw a bullet in the wall.
then i fell down behind the table trying to get under some protection as i heard cheering from the corridor " yeeeaahhh! we just shot another «colorados» girl! «
i cannot describe my shock… i mean, we were looking eye-to-eye and he shot me from a military gun…
then all our men inside the room moved swiftly to shut the entrance with the shelves while women went crazy crying «help us!»
there was this gap space between the shelves and the upper edge of the entrance, probably large enough for a compact guy to get in —
so the attackers released gas from fire extinguishers into this gap, and then empties 3–4 other gas caskets.
(this was probably CO2 from gas extinguishers and some neuro-paralytic gas from the other caskets)
felling this endlessly terrifying shock, i stopped recognising sounds, but i remember us crying out «don’t kill!»
the gas got in and filled the entire space, it was immobile, and had all features of a concetrated gas cloud.
Despite a couple of big windows open, we did not feel any air coming in at all.
We felt this airless situation went forever, although the actual time count might have been 15 mins.
the defending men were holding on as far as they could, and then we saw some of them loosing orientation — the support of shelves and entrance fortification weakened.
once the defences weakened, hell took over: the atackers got inside and killed all the men immediately.
the women were all sat on chairs in a row by the wall leading up to one of the windows.
opposite us there were those 2 dead bodies i spoke of earlier on, who we identified as lacking vitals…
the attackers began hitting those bodies with bats etc.
we told them that those men were already dead, and the two bodies — only bodies, but they kept on hitting and hitting.
also, once the attackers got in, someone shouted from the corridor: save the bullets, use hands (to kill).
then there was on order to move everybody into the basement service place, and move women somewhere else.
all defending men were killed, the bodies were pulled around the ground.
i don’t know where the woman that was taken first — where she went, or where she is now…
when the started taking me, i told them that i have a little infant, appealing so they spare me.
in the corridor i heard: «get one (woman) here for screwing, and the other — to the basement»
i reached for my mobile phone and showed them a picture of my child, saying
«look: this is my baby, it’s only 3 years old, i am a plain Odessa woman… why are you guys doing these crazy things?»
someone shouted «right, and i am a local football team fan, and you’ll never succeed with your Odessa republic shit»
they had a leader, a man in mid-thirties, very-well equipped with his body fully protected, a big guy.
he had a drum revolver and i saw him loading bullets into the drum.
meanwhile many bodies were being pulled on the ground… i don’t know if there were anybody alive among those…
too many bodies everywhere… when they took me from the first aid office on the 3rd floor,
we could not help but step on bodies as we walked
after some time walking, we reached some room that only had blood everywhere…
the wounded were all finished off…
yes, at least there is another girl that i keep in touch with now, who was with me at the «first aid room» — she can confirm everything,
although she is now hiding wit her husband, who also was in the building and got badly burned.
they have to hide because the «SBU» people hit the hospitals on 3 May 2014 and
acquired all personal information of all people related to 2 May events at the Assembly building who contacted medical workers
total horror..... Video link to interview: It is in Russian.
You can read it here: http://rusvesna.su/english/1400016063
Graphic warning: Pictures of elderly women and pensioners burned alive in Odessa government building fire....including a pregnant woman who was strangled and another woman who was raped. The extremely violent radical youth who threw the molotov cocktails at them are supported fully by the United States.
http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html
Now, after reading that, if you are at DU and still defending what the Right Sector, that is represented as part of the new Coup Ukrainian government, that we, the USA, support.....then you need to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself who you are and what you stand for in this life.....because what those people did is horrific.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I cried reading that. My video isn't working right now, I can't get sound so appreciate your transcription. Those poor people.
Response to polly7 (Reply #137)
go west young man This message was self-deleted by its author.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Stephen Cohen now fully onboard for exposing the US role in Odessa massacre.
Stephen Cohen criticized the US government on Monday for its unwavering support of the Kiev government.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/179799/stephen-cohen-us-applauding-war-crimes-ukraine
Excerpt from link:
Appearing on Democracy Now!, Cohen addressed this weekend’s hastily convened referendum on self-rule in Eastern Ukraine, calling it “no more or less legal than the government in Kiev,” which seized power in February. Cohen condemned the US response to attacks by Ukrainian troops in the Eastern cities of Mariupol and Odessa, where dozens of pro-Russian protesters were killed in a fire two weeks ago. “What did the US government say?” Cohen asked, “Did it say ‘we regret the loss of life?’ Did it say, ‘there should be an investigation?’ No. It said, ‘Kiev has the right to restore law and order.’” If a war crime was committed in Eastern Ukraine, warns Cohen, “we applauded it.”
Not only did we provide financial support for the Odessa massacre....we paid Ukrainian media who covered it up.
Link to the official US government website for USAID. That US government site officially states that USAID INCREASES SUPPORT FOR MEDIA AND PRESS FREEDOM IN UKRAINE
For Immediate Release
Friday, May 2, 2014
USAID Press Office
http://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/may-2-2014-usaid-increases-support-media-and-press-freedom-ukraine
This support takes place on May 2, 2014- the very same day of the Odessa massacre.....now look at what the Kiev Post publishes on May 3,2014, the very next day...
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html
Headline at link reads:
Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)
Print version
May 3, 2014, 6:45 p.m. | Ukraine — by Kyiv Post
Now take a look at the way these people died....and attempt to figure out all these "accidents"...Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses in various states of death. http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html
cerezha
(3 posts)Hi everyone.
I am new on this forum. I am russian and can verify that translation of the video is true. Horrible-horrible story. I am glad that something is happening on "english" side leading to better understanding what is happening in Ukraine.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)and welcome to DU. Just a forewarning.....a lot of people at the site will label you as not worthy to post as a you openly admit to being Russian.....please ignore them....this site is for all people that care about freedom and democracy and the truth. Principles that we at the Democratic Underground used to stand for. Nowadays I'm not so sure that people represent those qualities here anymore....their political bias seems to surpass their desire to expose the truth. Peace to you and thanks for coming onboard. I am one DU'er who is glad to see more diversity. There is a new type of racism being espoused now in the United States...I call it 'Russiaphobia'. Please just be aware so that your feelings are not hurt or you are driven away by fools who adopt that mentality.
cerezha
(3 posts)Ooooo
Thanks for warning! I experienced this on some Ukrainian forums, but did not expect it here. Does this forum have "ignore" button for aggressive members? I got there looking for truthful information for personal consumption. I am Russian with interesting fate. I was a dissident in University, than I was a co-chair of People's Front during the "perestroika" so, I actually participated in destruction of USSR. I was a member of the first democratically elected city council. Since, "perestroika" efficiently destroyed any possibility for me to be employed in my specialty, I was forced to migrate. I was invited to work in US and obtained the green card within 2 months as a "national interest" subject. In interview for American citizenship, the officer show me my "dossier" - it was 5 in thick! Apparently, they communicate very well with KGB and had all information regarding my activities in USSR and than Russia! I was sincerely impressed by the level of communication. So, I am legally American for 15+ years, but still Russian. My life split between Russia and US. I have family in both countries and communicate with my mom, sister and nephew in Russia on the weekly basis. My wife (and all her family) is progressive American social activist(s).
If anybody on this Forum is seriously interested to learn something truthful about Russians - I would be more than happy to help.
Response to go west young man (Original post)
go west young man This message was self-deleted by its author.
