HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Maybe this is what Bill M...

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:27 PM

 

Maybe this is what Bill Maher was talking about ,we have become too politically correct

The presidents of Alpha Phi sorority and Phi Delta Alpha fraternity canceled “Phiesta,” an annual philanthropic event planned for Saturday, after students raised concerns about the theme’s possible cultural insensitivity, A Phi president Courtney Wong ’15 said.

We felt that the possibility of offending even one member of the Dartmouth community was not worth the potential benefits of having the fundraiser,” Cathcart said







http://thedartmouth.com/2014/04/25/news/a-phi-phi-delt-cancel-phiesta

141 replies, 9306 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 141 replies Author Time Post
Reply Maybe this is what Bill Maher was talking about ,we have become too politically correct (Original post)
oneofthe99 Apr 2014 OP
TreasonousBastard Apr 2014 #1
hfojvt Apr 2014 #21
Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #28
Brickbat Apr 2014 #2
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #106
MellowDem Apr 2014 #129
quinnox Apr 2014 #3
MADem Apr 2014 #9
quinnox Apr 2014 #11
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #14
quinnox Apr 2014 #16
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #18
quinnox Apr 2014 #25
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #35
quinnox Apr 2014 #40
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #42
quinnox Apr 2014 #43
REP Apr 2014 #68
deutsey Apr 2014 #86
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #108
sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #58
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #71
Spider Jerusalem Apr 2014 #82
DanTex Apr 2014 #34
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #37
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #107
MADem Apr 2014 #17
JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #30
Number23 Apr 2014 #62
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #112
bettyellen Apr 2014 #110
Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #52
MADem Apr 2014 #64
Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #65
MADem Apr 2014 #67
ProfessorGAC Apr 2014 #97
MADem Apr 2014 #99
LanternWaste Apr 2014 #105
snooper2 Apr 2014 #4
MADem Apr 2014 #7
snooper2 Apr 2014 #8
MADem Apr 2014 #15
hfojvt Apr 2014 #20
MADem Apr 2014 #23
seabeyond Apr 2014 #5
MADem Apr 2014 #6
alcibiades_mystery Apr 2014 #10
MADem Apr 2014 #19
hughee99 Apr 2014 #100
Orsino Apr 2014 #137
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #12
oneofthe99 Apr 2014 #27
NuclearDem Apr 2014 #38
rrneck Apr 2014 #13
MADem Apr 2014 #22
rrneck Apr 2014 #29
MADem Apr 2014 #36
rrneck Apr 2014 #39
MADem Apr 2014 #50
rrneck Apr 2014 #55
MADem Apr 2014 #61
rrneck Apr 2014 #63
MADem Apr 2014 #66
rrneck Apr 2014 #74
MADem Apr 2014 #75
rrneck Apr 2014 #77
MADem Apr 2014 #78
rrneck Apr 2014 #79
MADem Apr 2014 #80
rrneck Apr 2014 #94
MADem Apr 2014 #95
rrneck Apr 2014 #96
MADem Apr 2014 #98
steve2470 Apr 2014 #59
MADem Apr 2014 #124
azmom Apr 2014 #130
merrily Apr 2014 #85
rrneck Apr 2014 #93
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #32
MADem Apr 2014 #44
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #51
MADem Apr 2014 #69
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #70
MADem Apr 2014 #72
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #84
MADem Apr 2014 #87
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #88
MADem Apr 2014 #89
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #90
MADem Apr 2014 #91
Scootaloo Apr 2014 #128
MADem Apr 2014 #132
YarnAddict Apr 2014 #122
MADem Apr 2014 #123
Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #46
MADem Apr 2014 #76
alcibiades_mystery Apr 2014 #24
rrneck Apr 2014 #31
alcibiades_mystery Apr 2014 #47
Skidmore Apr 2014 #26
DanTex Apr 2014 #33
MADem Apr 2014 #45
Vattel Apr 2014 #41
seabeyond Apr 2014 #48
Lex Apr 2014 #49
merrily Apr 2014 #53
boston bean Apr 2014 #56
merrily Apr 2014 #83
azmom Apr 2014 #54
Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #81
azmom Apr 2014 #92
Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #101
azmom Apr 2014 #111
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #113
closeupready Apr 2014 #114
Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #116
azmom Apr 2014 #120
Number23 Apr 2014 #133
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #135
JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #102
azmom Apr 2014 #109
MellowDem Apr 2014 #131
Bobbie Jo Apr 2014 #57
Skittles Apr 2014 #73
JustAnotherGen Apr 2014 #103
Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #60
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #115
Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #117
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #118
Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #119
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #121
MADem Apr 2014 #126
Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #127
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #134
MADem Apr 2014 #136
MADem Apr 2014 #125
Orsino Apr 2014 #140
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #141
unblock Apr 2014 #104
MADem Apr 2014 #138
B Calm Apr 2014 #139

Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:32 PM

1. Schveiks! One person has vague doubts...

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/health/dartmouth-greeks-cancel-phiesta-fundraiser-due-possibly-offensive-theme

By Kathryn Schroeder, Sat, April 26, 2014
A Dartmouth fraternity and sorority fundraising event, “Phiesta,” has been cancelled after a student showed concerns over the event being offensive.

“Phiesta” was planned as a fundraising event for cardiac care. It would have featured a lawn performance of the band “Burn the Barn,” Boloco burritos, free virgin pina coladas and strawberry daiquiris, chips and salsa, and homemade guacamole.

Class of ’15 student Daniela Hernandez, after hearing about the event, sent an email to Greek Letter Organizations and Societies, GLOS director Wes Schaub, Dean of the College Charlotte Johnson, the Office of Pluralism and Leadership, and the Panhellenic Council about her concerns over “Phiesta” and the theme being racially insensitive.

The following portion of Hernandez’s email was printed in The Dartmouth:

“There are various problematic structures and ideologies regarding a Cinco de Mayo-inspired event, and I am sure that we, as a Dartmouth community, could learn from the extensive literature written about the Americanization of Cinco de Mayo and its construction as a drinking holiday in the United States, cultural appropriation and the inappropriate usage of cultural clothing, and the exploitation of groups of people and cultures for the sake of business opportunities.”


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:13 PM

21. well it is kinda odd, IMO

to celebrate Karl Marx's birthday with Mexican Food.

But happy birthday, Karl!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:29 PM

28. she sounds like a real

Party pooper. Mexican food and nonalcohlic drinks on cinco de mayo sounds appropriate. Everybody can celebrate the holiday.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:32 PM

2. I can't tell if you're serious.

Someone planned an event, someone wrote a letter and pointed out problems with the event, the event organizers said, "Hey, good point," cancelled the event, and said they will organize something that everyone can participate in without stepping on toes. Where's the problem?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:21 PM

106. What the Problem? ...

 

What's the Problem?

White folks can't appropriate another group's culture as an excuse to get drunk ... that's the problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #106)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:15 PM

129. Is that's what's happening in this story?

I certainly see lots of black, Asian and Hispanic people getting wasted on Cinco de Mayo as well.

And from the link, it looks like there is no alcohol at the fundraiser.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:39 PM

3. I think Bill Maher was right on point

 

this creeping authoritarianism has gone far enough, it is time to stand up against this trend.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:51 PM

9. Creeping authoritarianism = Minorities not taking shit anymore...? nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:54 PM

11. Nope, more like spying on people, and the use of propaganda to spread fear

 

so people will keep propping up the military and its use and stuff like that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #11)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:59 PM

14. How exactly is PC tantamount to any of that?

 

That you call minority groups standing up for themselves authoritarian behavior is telling though.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:05 PM

16. You are missing the point

 

I am talking about a trend, excessive use of "pc" and expansion of it is just one part of it. Those other things I mentioned are also a part. Authoritarianism has been on the rise in this country ever since Bush.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:09 PM

18. PC has absolutely nothing to do with authoritarianism.

 

People trying to make offensive words and behavior socially unacceptable through education and outreach is not even in the ballpark of unwarranted surveillance and the MIC.

That kind of thinking just reeks of the "gay mafia" and "feminazi" rants from Fox and Limbaugh, trying to make minority groups the bad guys for calling out bigotry.

Authoritarians are the ones who try to otherize minorities.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:17 PM

25. Wow, I couldn't disagree more.

 

It has everything to do with it. It is all part of the same creeping authoritarianism that started in Bush's term, and has been expanding ever since. It needs to be stopped in its tracks.

I can't stand authoritarian thinking, it makes me cringe.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #25)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:52 PM

35. No. That minority groups inform the general public why certain words are offensive

 

and people understanding and putting an end to the use of those words is not authoritarian.

Authoritarians dismiss such behavior as embracing multiculturalism. They rely on being able to demean minorities and otherize them, and they do that through hateful, charged words and behaviors.

People expecting you to understand how words and actions can hurt others isn't authoritarian. It's called empathy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #35)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:09 PM

40. "putting an end to the use of those words"

 

I'd say that is classic authoritarianism. Did you ever read "1984"? In the book, Winston Smith works as a clerk in the Records Department of the Ministry of Truth, and part of his job is to rewrite history, to make it align and seem favorable to the power structure. There is also a thing in the book called "newspeak", which is a new language that is made with all words deemed objectionable by the authorities banned and censored.

As wikipedia puts it - "It is a controlled language created by the totalitarian state as a tool to limit freedom of thought, and concepts that pose a threat to the regime such as freedom, self-expression, individuality, peace, etc. Any form of thought alternative to the party’s construct is classified as 'thoughtcrime.'

In a free society, it is very important that no words are banned or censored, including ones that people find offensive. Hell, especially ones that people find offensive! Once you start going down that road, it will inevitably lead to fascism. History is full of examples of authoritarian regimes that control the populace to a horrendous degree, including how they speak and what they can say. See North Korea for the latest example.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #40)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:19 PM

42. No. Newspeak is aimed at reducing the ability for critical thought.

 

How is encouraging people not to use the b word, r word, n word, f word, or any number of slurs or derogatory terms reducing your capacity to think critically?

Fact is when you call someone a r****d, call something "so gay", or tell someone who's upset to "stop being a f****t", whether they are mentally disabled or homosexual or not, that you're using words that associate negativity to mental disabilities or homosexuality means you are hurting those groups as a whole.

And there is a BIG goddamn difference between official censorship (which is what 1984 was about), and understanding that words hurt and not tolerating their use.

Frankly, if people just stopped using those hateful slurs, we would lose absolutely nothing, other than stupid hate speech an the whiny libertarians who demand the right to say those words without consequences.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #42)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:32 PM

43. Well, I can see we are on the opposite ends of the spectrum on this. What you say sounds good, up to

 

a certain point. But that is just it, it doesn't stop there. It keeps expanding, and growing, like a virus. New words are deemed objectionable, and it changes. While one day a word was considered fine, the next it can be considered highly offensive. And there goes that word, and then that one. Etc, etc. Until the language has been completely sanitized into a "newspeak" scenario.

Most human beings are very sheep-like. If you tell them not to do something, they will usually not do it. There are a tiny percentage who don't have this "sheep gene", and some of them are even criminals, who reject all rules of society. But some are also just independent thinkers, who feel very sensitive about things like freedom, and this kind of stuff sets the alarm bells ringing. These people are not the majority, and are in a minority. But I think they are the ones on the front lines, such as Bill Maher, a popular comedian, and its important for them to speak out about this, because they have a voice.

Anyway, I enjoyed the conversation, you made me think about this more. But on this one, we are at the opposite ends of the universe. But that is ok, the universe won't mind.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #43)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 07:43 PM

68. I agree/disagree but for another reason

Spending a great deal of time arguing whether "undocumented worker" is better than "illegal alien" (for example) may be well meant, but it's meaningless unless the bickering over what sounds nicer is backed with real action to improve the pay and working conditions of the group whose labeling is being discussed.

That's just one example. It's so much easier to fight over words than to see what's going on behind the words - the actual problems of the people, not the problem with what they're called, as well as how it's in somebody's interest that most of population is busy dividing itself up, instead of realizing how much it has in common and what strength there is in those numbers.

So while I don't object to referring to someone they way they prefer - I was raised weird - this constant parsing and combing and fighting is in no one's interest.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to REP (Reply #68)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:03 AM

86. I became very frustrated during Occupy

when I heard lefties on the left-wing radio station I listen to (KPFA) arguing about the word "occupy" being a term of imperialism (as in "occupied territory".

That may or may not be a legitimate quibble, but I was more concerned about the economic and social issues raised by Occupy than semantics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:25 PM

108. Yet ...

 

I can't stand authoritarian thinking, it makes me cringe.


You have no problem with your own expression of authoritarianism.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 05:22 PM

58. Authoritarians USE other people's issues to impose restrictions on everyone.

As a woman, eg, I despise those who USE my rights to try to emotionally manipulate my views on anything. If someone cannot make a point without using important issues to do so, they have an ulterior motive..

Eg, poverty IS a serious issue. Think, if you can, of all the dictators who USED it to attack those who opposed their authoritarian rule.

Not a difficult thing to understand.

Most of those who do this could not care less about the people they are claiming to care about.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #58)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 08:26 PM

71. ...

 

Eg, poverty IS a serious issue. Think, if you can, of all the dictators who USED it to attack those who opposed their authoritarian rule.


You're going to have to cite examples of that, because it's almost always authoritarians dismissing class and poverty issues to reinforce their rule through nationalist rhetoric.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to quinnox (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:51 PM

34. I'm certainly missing it. What does PC have to do with authoritarianism, fearmongering, and spying?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DanTex (Reply #34)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:55 PM

37. What I'm getting is that to be against surveillance state and MIC tendencies

 

One has to be in favor of tolerating hurtful words or behaviors. Absolutely no middle ground at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:23 PM

107. Yes ... it is very telling, Huh? eom.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #11)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:06 PM

17. I think you might need to review the OP as well as what Maher was saying. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #17)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:38 PM

30. ITA

And these are peers of those elitist stuck up Greek Tragedies also paying tuition. The Latino/Hispanic population owns that history - not the people who went to college and had to buy friends.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #17)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 06:38 PM

62. MADem, don't you know? In the history of the world it's always been MINORITIES that have relied

on the military and the police forces to prop up their regimes and dictate what people think!1one! PC is just a natural extension of the out of control power that women, gays and poc inflict on the dominant culture!1!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Number23 (Reply #62)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:52 PM

112. LOL ...

 

Some don't like authoritarianism, unless it is they that are the authorities.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:42 PM

110. LOL, there is no connection at all to spying. NONE, this post is ridiculous.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 04:33 PM

52. Minorities like Gwyneth Paltrow?



Weirdest thing about Maher's rant, as near as I can tell, is the odd laundry list of annoyances that he somehow stuck under the label "political correctness".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #52)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 07:12 PM

64. Well, that's a bit weak, to even throw her in there when it comes to any gripes about

making fun of people. The mother of "Apple" was tossed in that mix to serve as a shield and an intro to make the gripe that "Liberals can be Prissy at times." She was low hanging fruit, and sure enough, you grabbed at it.

See how that works?

Gwenyth is insufferable so everyone enjoys hating on her. I don't see her tromping off to underdeveloped countries and helping starving kids, or being overtly "liberal" on a regular basis, either--the only time she has popped onto my radar is for stuff like the "uncoupling" nonsense, and for her to tell us all how beautiful she is. Gwenyth is all about Gwenyth.

But then, with Gwenyth, the easily hated as cover and a warm-up, Maher took a swipe at people who are outside the gender mainstream, not once, but twice:

“I also for example think it’s ridiculous that Facebook has now decided that we have to choose, in our profile, from 56 different genders, including transgender, cisgender and, of course, brucegender” (I think he wanted to make fun of Bruce Jenner, there).


...and then he doubled down on the GLBT team with a bit of a backhander:

“You know, I once almost ate at Chick-fil-A just because so many people were telling me I shouldn’t eat at Chick-fil-A--but then I remembered — it’s Chick-fil-A.”


And then, to complete the CYA, he topped the sandwich by tackling a subject that's a Near/Dear to his own heart (can't accuse HIM of not doing some of that self-deprecation, doncha know):

“Even atheists make me roll my eyes sometimes, like when they sued to have a cross taken down from a building. Oh for fuck's sake, we are atheists not vampires. If you can’t handle seeing a cross now and then, you picked the wrong country.”


He basically made a sandwich with the Gwenyth and the atheists serving as the bread, with the "meat" being the GLBT community. It was a bit of a cheap shot, IMO. So was the tired old "nagging wives" joke (from a guy who fears commitment, too).

Am I going to tear my hair out over it and call for a boycott? No. Free speech and all that, and yeah he has the "right" to say stupid and ill avised things. Am I going to nod approvingly when I think it was a cheap shot? Hell no. I'm going to say I think he said a couple of dumbass things and he should be embarrassed. I also think maybe he has some unresolved fears about his own place on the orientation continuum, and that's why he feels compelled to snark in such a fashion. He also shouldn't be boasting about shopping at Whole Paycheck, but that is a conversation for another day!

At the end of his patter, he came to the nub of the matter--don't piss off those stupid Republicans, they're poor, in need of health care, uneducated and they have guns. So there was plenty of insult to go around.




And I also didn't hear him saying "Hey, put on a Pancho Villa costume, a couple of bandoliers, a few six shooters, a cartoonish moustache, and a giant sombrero, get drunk, vomit, and call it a cultural observance."

If he said that, I sure as hell missed it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #64)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 07:20 PM

65. I stopped watching Maher a while ago.

It just stopped being very entertaining.

As others have noted, I agree with the guy on some things, disagree on others. Does not sound like one of his better rants, tho.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #65)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 07:38 PM

67. It was just lame. If you were Gwenyth Paltrow, a member of the LGBT community, an atheist, or

a Whole Foods shopper, your ox was certainly gored. If you hold liberal views, you were mocked for being snit-farty/whiney; if you were a tea partier/Republican, you were characterized as a dumb, underpaid gun nut in need of health care.

A lot of broad brushing, and sure, that is what humor does, but I agree, it wasn't one of his better efforts.

It wasn't an "end of the world" bit--he's got to come up with one every week; they can't all be gems--it just wasn't particularly smart or clever. Everyone's entitled to a few bad choices. I'm guessing his staff has gotten some feedback.

I sometimes catch the show "after the fact" ON DEMAND, but I will admit that, while I play it, I might not always be paying much attention to it. It just depends. Some shows ARE better than others!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #67)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 12:50 PM

97. Wow!

Just wow. I think you were the exact type of person Maher was describing.

You saw insult in that routine? In a comedy routine you assertively sought out some nugget of offense?

The Chick-Fil-A joke was anti-gay? How? He didn't approve of the company. In fact, he still made from of them.

You willfully ignored that he was making fun of himself too.

And Paltrow can take care of herself. Don't think she needs your outrage to manage her life.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #97)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 12:59 PM

99. You need to read more carefully. You miss nuance when you skim. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quinnox (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:18 PM

105. Don Sterling most likely shares your righteous stance...

"it is time to stand up against this trend..."

Don Sterling most likely shares your righteous stance. He courageously stood up this weekend-- show the courage of your convictions and do the same (just don't put it on Instagram)!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:43 PM

4. St. Patricks day is next :)

 

"“There are various problematic structures and ideologies regarding a Cinco de Mayo-inspired event, and I am sure that we, as a Dartmouth community, could learn from the extensive literature written about the Americanization of Cinco de Mayo and its construction as a drinking holiday in the United States, cultural appropriation and the inappropriate usage of cultural clothing, and the exploitation of groups of people and cultures for the sake of business opportunities,” Hernandez said in an email to The Dartmouth."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to snooper2 (Reply #4)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:47 PM

7. It should be. There's nothing "celebratory" about people vomiting green beer and

nachos or hot wings onto the sidewalk that has anything to do with a myth about Ireland. In many cities, the trend is to dial down on the boozy stupidity, and that isn't a bad thing.

No one is saying "Don't have a drink." They're saying "Don't act like an ass."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:50 PM

8. agreed, but all cultures steal customs and rituals from all other cultures

 

Not like it is something new and unique since the founding of the United States

And it is not something that is going to end anytime soon-

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to snooper2 (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:05 PM

15. Like I said, nothing wrong with having fun, to include alcoholic fun.

One doesn't even have to be a member of the group to have fun, either. You should have seen the beautiful "black Irish" (because on that one day, everyone is Irish) organizer of this year's Saint Paddy's Day breakfast in Boston this past year--one of the best ones ever, IMO.

“Do not adjust your television set,” the woman, State Senator Linda Dorcena Forry, instructed the audience watching at home. “There is nothing wrong with the picture on your TV. That’s right everyone. I’m a woman.”

The roughly 700 people packed into the hall at the Boston Convention Center roared their approval.

And so began a barrier-breaking performance, when the first nonmale, nonwhite, nonresident of South Boston took over as M.C. of the signature cultural event of Southie, which had long been one of the most insular Irish enclaves in the city, if not the country.....“Have a good look, everybody,” Gov. Deval Patrick, who is black, told the audience as he put his arm around Ms. Dorcena Forry, whose husband, Bill Forry, is Irish. “This is what a Forry and a Patrick looks like these days.”



But when "having fun" means wearing sombreros and ponchos, having a buddy dress up as a burro, and speaking, mockingly with a fake Mexican accent and affecting a "stooooopid" and lazy "mañana, mañana" persona for LAUGHS, well, that is the thing that's offensive.

Linda Dorcena Forry showed 'em how to do it on Saint Paddy's Day. Would that this be the paradigm in future. You can still have fun, you just can't be an ass while having it, anymore and you can't do it at anyone's cultural expense...because people will notice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:11 PM

20. I am certainly saying "Don't have a drink"

and not just because my membership in the WCTU requires me to.

I'd be a teetotaler except the taste of most tea reminds me of the smell of the chicken poop in my grandparent's barn.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #20)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:15 PM

23. Well, if you are saying that, you are in a distinct minority.

Maybe a little ginger in your tea will cover that chicken poop aftertaste?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:44 PM

5. Not to worry. Dartmouth allowed a man to publish a letter calling to rape a woman in the same dorm

 

As he. After explaining exactly how to go about the rape because he was able to rape her in that manner

Dartmouth honoured his free speech as did the police with no repercussion

You mean those PC nazis?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:45 PM

6. Whining about "PC" is the mark of someone on weak ground.

No one is telling anyone to cancel a party. These twerps are cancelling it in a fit of pique, because they were called out for trivializing Cinco de Mayo. They've done it before, and they'll do it again if not checked.

Look, everyone knows that Cinco de Mayo is a time for celebration, to include celebration of the alcoholic variety. That doesn't mean the event should be touted as "Mexican Drunkard's Day."

It originated with Mexican-American communities in the American West as a way to commemorate the cause of freedom and democracy during the first years of the American Civil War,[8][9] and today the date is observed in the United States as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride.[10] In the state of Puebla, the date is observed to commemorate the Mexican army's unlikely victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, under the leadership of General Ignacio Zaragoza Seguín.[3][11] Cinco de Mayo is not Mexico's Independence Day—the most important national patriotic holiday in Mexico—which is celebrated on September 16.[3][12]


The lesson is simple. Have fun. Recognize the origins of the celebration. Just don't, in the name of tradition, keep on with practices that can be regarded as culturally insensitive or hurtful.

You don't need stereotypical Mexican caricatures or mocking costumes or other stupidities to celebrate a "heritage" event, and griping about PC because it's just, well, racist, to persist in perpetuating stereotypes like it's a "right" is just lame.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #6)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:53 PM

10. But I WANT to wear my Speedy Gonzalez costume and shout ARRIBA! while funneling 3 Coronas at a time!

 

What about MY free speech rights!!!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:10 PM

19. Better slam all three down before "La Cucaracha" finishes playing, too!



Otherwise, there will be hell--or should I say "infierno"--to pay!!

It's puzzling to me why people can't see how this kind of thing can offend. I guess when it's not their ox being gored, it's all "good fun!"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:03 PM

100. And some people want to be able to eat chips and salsa on a Mexican holiday

with out being considered "culturally insensitive". There's probably some happy medium somewhere that can be equally offensive and "PC" to everyone, and they everyone can join together and complain about it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 30, 2014, 02:06 PM

137. Yes. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:59 PM

12. I fail to see any problem here.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:24 PM

27. I know you don't

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Reply #27)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:00 PM

38. But that you do is telling.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 01:59 PM

13. Cultural appropriation happens all the time.

There is no way to stop it, or even effectively control it. At the same time all they had to do is adjust the flavor of the event a bit and it would have been all right. There was no need to turn it into a pissing contest.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #13)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:14 PM

22. Yes. The ones who turned it into a pissing contest--who took their ball and went home--were the

event organizers. It doesn't look like they even tried to make adjustments.

What? We can't get shitfaced and be culturally insensitive? Well, to HELL with it, then! Damn those 'PC' Mexicans!!! Ruining OUR fun!!!!*

* -- of course -- for the irony-impaired.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:31 PM

29. It's a two way street.

No alcohol was going to be served at the event. It looks like all they did is offer Mexican themed food and drink and spin the word "fiesta" into "Phiesta" to raise money for cardiac research.

The question to ask is when does cultural appropriation become offensive. While nobody deserves to have their culture publicly lambasted, nobody has the right to demand an homage to their culture with every reference either.

The gist of the ever hyperbolic Bill Maher's rant was not that political correctness is bad, but that hypersensitivity is counter productive. He used as examples concerns about certain terms and celebrities which are not really important enough to warrant attention by the public in the face of more pressing problems.

Unfortunately, he's making as much money off the culture war as anybody. And that's the real problem. Entire industries are devoted to profit from human tribalism, a trait which is as old as the species itself.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:53 PM

36. Of course they weren't going to "serve" alcohol...the kids would bring their own.

Throw that tequila or rum in your Mountain Dew 20 ouncer, you're good! Put that vodka in your Aquafina bottle, add what you will to your "virgin" colada, or your faux margarita and have yourself some fun!

The question you asked is answered when someone pipes up and gripes. It's not a question of "hypersensitivity," it's a question of basic respect. It's all fun and games until it's YOUR group getting "the treatment." I'm quite sure there was more than a little food and culture happening at those fraternities, and I'll bet there was damn little of those things in the big picture, and plenty of booze and stereotypes. Ole, ole!!! Arriba!! Ay, ay, ay, ay!!!!

Bill Maher is a very clever fellow and he says a lot of things that are on point. That said, he's had his head, expensive haircut and all, wedged firmly up his ass on occasion. For a bright and shining moment he pulled out the pompoms and cheerleaded for Bush. Just because he's rich, he gave a million bucks to the Dems, and he often hits the nail on the head does not mean he's always right.

He's wrong as hell on this one, and he probably knows it (if I had to bet, I'd bet he surely does know he's off the mark) but other factors are at play. He doesn't want to lose the Paulbot and the GOP weed smoking contingents of his audience, he's got to keep it fresh and edgy, lest he risk turning into a Dennis Miller loser who preaches to a narrow audience, and this is one great way to throw the righties, contrarians, members of the He-Man Wimmin Hater's Club, and the White Dudes Tired of All Those Annoying Minorities Association a great big juicy bone so they'll keep tuning in.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #36)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:08 PM

39. Unless the organizers of the event advertised "bring your own booze"

the fact that college students would do so is not germane.

And yes, my group has "gotten the treatment" for a long time now. From the Dukes of Hazzard to the Beverly Hillbillies to every redneck stereotype imaginable. I have watched them culturally, and I have been insulted personally by people - including faculty in universities - who should know better. And you can bet nobody would have noticed if I had sent an email complaining about it.

Piping up and griping is not enough because it is based on a subjective standard. There has to be some valid reason for the gripe to have validity or it's just emotional manipulation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #39)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:57 PM

50. You don't need an "advertisement" for college kids to do what college kids do.

In fact, an advertisement would directly contravene law, absent ID checks. The drinking age is 21. If you think college kids wait until that age to drink at college blowouts, you have a rather unworldly world view. And if you don't realize that plausible deniability about alcohol and drug consumption is a big part of these frat blowouts, well, I can't help you understand college life in New England.

Not sure what you are saying about your group "getting the treatment." Because your group gets shit on by some people, that makes it "OK" for others to get the treatment as well?

I have a foot in many cultures, so much that I am sometimes regarded with suspicion as "not quite" by all of them. That doesn't make me less sympathetic to their complaints, in fact, as someone who has "gotten the hand" at many times in my life, I am empathetic to these expressions of concern. I know, from personal experience, how it feels to be marginalized, trivialized, and viewed as "less than" owing solely to circumstances of one's physical being.

It's not rocket science--anyone with the slightest bit of awareness knows when a cultural symbol is an "homage" and when it is an insult, a stereotype, or a simplistic interpretation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #50)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 05:07 PM

55. Rocket science is simple by comparison.

The point about the reference to "my group" is that complaining about it would be met with derision.

And if these determinations are to be based on awareness, we will need to quantify that won't we? How are we to determine the difference between an homage, an insult, a stereotype, or a simplistic interpretation and how complex and accurate should that interpretation be to avoid criticism from somebody else who interprets it differently? Is an homage even necessary, and if so how cloying should it be to satisfy everyone related to a particular culture or cultural practice?

Surely you can see how quickly the questions pile up when we try to translate our sensibilities into an objective standard.

And again, if the organizers did not make alcohol a part of the event, complaints about its propriety are not germane to the discussion. Of course college students will bring their own booze but how would the organizers design an event whereby there would be nothing for drunken obnoxious college students to lampoon? How generic would it have to be? It would have to become a non event event.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #55)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 06:00 PM

61. But that's not true. The whole south-bashing thing has been discussed here many times.

Most people--save the ones that, oddly enough, ALSO think it's funny to joke about people of Mexican and African heritage, or women--are sensitive to this. If you check the archives you'll see this topic has been discussed more than once, and most people think it's cruel and unwarranted to mindlessly bash people based on the region where they reside. However, again you bring it up, and again I have to press the point that just because you've been dissed that doesn't make it "OK" to shit on Mexicans. Or anyone else, for that matter. Two wrongs have never made a right. And I just do not GET this comment of yours:

...how would the organizers design an event whereby there would be nothing for drunken obnoxious college students to lampoon?


How about teaching the drunken obnoxious college students--and everyone else, for that matter--that lampooning people, human beings, for their cultural backgrounds is no different from bullying. It's what stupid people do.

Further, let's not go off into the "alcohol" distraction. It doesn't matter if those children or young adults are drunk on their ass or stone-cold sober. Their BEHAVIOR is what is at issue; the stereotyping, the joking, the inappropriate costumes and trivialization--that's what this woman is griping about. I think she has a fair point.

This is not about "our sensibilities." This is about treating all people with dignity and respect, and not objectifying cultures in trivial and insulting ways.

You ask if an homage is even necessary. Maybe, it's NOT. If they can't do it in a respectful fashion, maybe they should use the occasion to celebrate spring, or April showers, or May flowers, or something a bit more innocuous. They're just looking for an excuse to party around a theme of tasty Mexican food, they can find another way to do that if they're halfway clever.

Dartmouth has an unfortunate reputation of late for "getting it WRONG." That "Crips and Bloods" party referenced in another post is just another sad example.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #61)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 06:47 PM

63. And it seems that no matter how many times it is discussed

the issue seems to resurface with fair regularity. Apparently there is an extended learning curve here. And to top it off, as a son of the south I don't mind a bit if someone lampoons that region of the country, its culture or its inhabitants. The distinction that we have to make is whether such lampooning is done in jest or with malice, which is a subjective standard.

Do you know the difference between a joke and an insult? A good rule of thumb is that if the fall guy can laugh, it's a joke. But what if the fall guy is a humorless asshole? It's a big world, and if all it takes is one person complaining to change the character of an organized event, there will never be another organized event. As it stands now the organizers have won the publicity battle. By overacting to the complaint of a single individual some research facility won't get needed funds. I don't know the student that complained personally, but she now has egg on her face.

In terms of this whole "Phistea" thing I don't have the details. A student complained and they cancelled the whole thing. Was there any effort to compromise from either party? I don't know. If not, there should have been. If the student didn't like the way the event was being organized, I would certainly expect those organizing it to work to find a solution.

You can't copyright a culture. And you can't effectively demand that those who use it's motifs do so to your specifications. And if you have a way to keep partying undergraduates from being obnoxious I'm all ears.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #63)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 07:31 PM

66. Well, there's a learning curve for sensitivity towards the Mexican - American community, too.

And they've been here a long-ass time; hell, they NAMED California, Colorado, Montana, Texas and Nevada, for starters...you'd think they could get a little respect. MANY Mexican people have been in the US way longer than most what the wingnuts would call "Americans" (those white Europeans that used to be the paradigm back in the day). In many cases, when it came to a lot of Mexicans, the only thing that moved was the border.

And if you're not insulted by regional characterizations, why did you spend so much time crying about it to me? Why create a "poor me" strawman? Is your argument now "Well, it doesn't bother ME, ergo it should not bother THEM?" Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

You can't copyright a culture, but people who think you are mocking them can speak up, say bull SHIT, and demand that idiots doing the insulting cease and desist. If those "motifs" of which you speak create a hostile environment toward the people whose culture is being commodified, they may be in an actionable circumstance.

I don't know what the "other side" did, but there's absolutely zero evidence that the young woman who wrote that email "demanded" anything. She just said she was first, offended, and second, not surprised. Yet she's being "blamed" for "spoiling the fun" by people who feel that their right to mock and deride has been infringed somehow.

But getting back to "copyrighting a culture," did you ever ask yourself why we don't see a lot of blackface any more? After all, that was part and parcel of minstrel culture, and blackface was employed by both blacks and whites-- and it even found its way into films...but then, one day...poof! It fell out of fashion. Why? Because people decided that they weren't going to put up with what used to be a hurtful and insulting "cultural norm" anymore.

As for wondering how to stop students from behaving badly, I think that the leadership at Dartmouth effectively stopped a bunch of undergrads from being obnoxious in this particular instance.

And that's a good thing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #66)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 09:40 PM

74. You seem to be missing the point that I am trying to make.

Of all the things in the universe that concern me, a fundraiser at Dartmouth is way down the list. It may however serve as an example of how complicated these things can be.

Determinations regarding the proper characterization of cultural norms are subjective in nature and require the cooperation of all parties involved. Since there is no objective standard the feelings expressed and interpreted are all we have to work with. There is ample room on both sides of the issue for unreasonable behavior. Some people are insensitive assholes, and some people cannot be mollified. Both behaviors are manipulative and obnoxious.

Hernandez’s email was not sent directly to the presidents of A Phi or Phi Delt, but Schaub later alerted them to the email, Wong said.


Would the event have become insulting? I don't know. Very likely given the nature of the attendees. Did Ms. Hernandez overplay her hand by sounding the alarm before she made some attempt to work the matter out with the event organizers? I don't know. Very likely given the ideological verve and tendency of undergraduates to push the envelope in such matters. Is everyone involved playing to the crowd? Very likely.

I am fairly certain that under the circumstances I would not want my name associated with the cancellation of a fundraiser for cardiac care. I don't think Ms. Hernandez has done anyone any favors by handling the matter the way she did. In the end there are no images of drunken revelers in sombreros and fake mustaches but instead a plan offered by the organizers to work with various groups in the future. If that doesn't mollify you I don't know what will.

----------------------------------
This is what I wrote earlier:
And to top it off, as a son of the south I don't mind a bit if someone lampoons that region of the country, its culture or its inhabitants. The distinction that we have to make is whether such lampooning is done in jest or with malice, which is a subjective standard.

Mischaracterizing what I say should be beneath you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #74)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 12:33 AM

75. If this fundraiser is of "no concern" to you, you could have certainly fooled me.

Your arguments have been all over the board trying to minimize this woman's complaint. You've expended a lot of time and energy for someone who doesn't care, ostensibly.

And I am NOT "mischaracterizing" what you say. Perhaps you might endeavor to make your position clear if you don't want to be "misinterpreted." Playing the "beneath you" card is, dare I say, beneath YOU. Cheap shot, and you missed. By a "country mile," to sustain that regional reference. Yee haw.

I can give you some advice, and you can take it, or not: Mock this woman's concerns, and find yourself on the wrong side of history. Her gripes are no different from the gripes of the Irish when they were portrayed as subhumans with tails, the same as the complaints of Italians who were characterized as swarthy monkeys, the same as the gripes of Americans of African ancestry who were de-humanized six ways to Sunday ... AND lynched when it suited the majority.

There is no "jest" in the game anymore. It's ALL malice. There's nothing "funny" or "sporting" about de-humanizing people. That ship sailed a long time ago--it's only some people who don't quite get it; like some people don't "get" that it isn't OK to smoke in restaurants anymore.

Here's some more advice--re-read this entire thread. You'll learn that Mexican Americans have been griping about this issue for several years now, that they regard the entire "Phiesta" fraternity thing as a mockery and a denigration. This woman is NOT the first--she's just the LATEST.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #75)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:36 AM

77. This issue is very interesting.

I have, at last count, agreed with you at least twice. And yet the conversation is always the same.

It would be no surprise that any social event sponsored by a fraternity (or was a sorority) would be themed in an insulting manner, certainly such an organization at an ivy league school. Of course, Ms. Hernandez is also a student at that school and apparently has the wherewithal to manage the forty three thousand dollar annual tuition. I doubt she'll be picking strawberries for minimum wage any time soon.

So why is it that even the mention that someone could theoretically overstate their feelings of discomfort to manipulate others results in denial of even that possibility. It's simply off the table. And whoever is considered the cause of that discomfort is immediately assumed to be doing so for the most cruel and insensitive of reasons. No other interpretation is permitted.

Be that as it may, these things sort themselves out sooner or later although never soon enough. Like you said, nobody wears blackface any more. As far as I'm concerned what a bunch of 1% larvae wear to a party will have little impact on the culture at large. Well, little impact beyond the press they get for being so sensitive and culturally aware.

I'm more interested in the people that profit from those cultural conflicts. Like I said in the post that started this subthread, entire industries are devoted to profit from human tribalism, a trait which is as old as the species itself. And you can bet the 1% is right there with two feet in the trough.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #77)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:56 AM

78. I've agreed with you as well--did I not concur that regional bashing isn't a good thing?

You don't know Ms. Hernandez's situation any more than I do. She might come from a family that is rich as Roosevelt or poor as a churchmouse. That shouldn't factor into this issue, anyway. Not sure where you're going, there, with the "strawberry picking" snark--should she care less about the objectification/mocking of Mexicans if she's rich, or poor? What does that even have to do with anything?

As far as the impact of the One Percenters with society at large, look at where the last few Presidents have gone to college. It ain't Shitbird Community College, or Goodyear Tire Tech. Look at the alma maters of Senators, of the Supremes, of a lot of the players in the Big Political Game. Frankly, I'd rather see a Ms. Hernandez with a social conscience and a sense of decency up there playing the politics game than a Legacy Bush. I don't think I'm alone in that POV, either. She's a big part of the future, demographically, certainly.

Perpetuating a tired and inaccurate image of Mexicans as indolent slackers in sombreros and ponchos just isn't cool. There's simply no justifying it. This is just the latest in a string of gripes going back several years--and it's not going away. I put these links in another post--but maybe you should click on them and have a look:

http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/12766/two-ut-sororities-throw-racially-questionable-fiesta-party

http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/02/usc_frat_planned_a_racist_rager_but_a_mexican-american_student_put_them_on_blast.html

Say goodbye to "making fun of Mexicans." It's on the "Not OK List."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #78)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:25 AM

79. She's attending Dartmouth.

Whether she's paying for it out of pocket or with a scholarship, she has a bright future. And plenty of Mexicans work in horrible conditions for too little money.

The impact of one percenters is almost exclusively confined to stealing our money. They don't give two shits in a bucket about anybody's ethnicity or gender unless it can make them a nickel. Here's a little thought experiment for you, if you'll indulge me.

There are certain christian fundamentalists who seem to think that the first amendment precludes governmental interference in religion, but has nothing to say about religious interference in government. The proposition is absurdly unfair. Would you accept a power differential like that from someone; rules that require you to embrace the opinions of someone with the utmost importance with no input from you at all? I wouldn't.

That's the flaw in the thinking offered by almost every combatant in the culture wars. I can tell you how you're supposed to feel about an issue, but you can't say anything about how I feel about it. As a result, the standard of measure is based on the passion of an aggrieved party that is totally subjective. It's a dysfunctional relationship.

Like I said, culturally speaking these things work themselves out. But along the way there is a ton of money to be made by feeding off the umbrage of various groups from Christians to minorities. And I suspect that a large chunk of the culture wars and the animosity that goes along with them is the result of the 1% using the media to tell people what they want to hear for a price.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #79)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:45 AM

80. She's attending Dartmouth, she has a bright future...

Why do I think you're saying "She oughta just shut up and be happy, instead of complaining about how the students at Dartmouth are mocking her heritage?"

What "money" is being made by saying "It's not nice to perpetuate stereotypical and insulting imagery with regard to Mexican people?" Will the poncho, sombrero and fake moustache market take a major hit if people aren't "allowed" to mock Mexicans anymore?

You keep repeating that theme, and I just can't see how it applies.

It's college level bullying, is what it is. Ugliness, bigotry. No need for it, it's not cool, it's not funny. It's happened at other schools, and students of Mexican heritage are speaking out against it.

Good for them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #80)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 11:26 AM

94. Good for them indeed.

Last edited Mon Apr 28, 2014, 11:59 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't think she should just shut up. I think she could have handled it better, but she's there to learn. She'll figure it out.

Do you know what her major is? I don't. She might indeed turn out to be an attorney or lawmaker that brings justice to people who need it. Or she might be a business major and and become expert in the application of Friedman school economics. She might even be a marketing major. I'm not passing judgement on her since I don't have any more information than her ethnicity and an email. But nor am I assuming she embodies all that is right and good in the human spirit. She is human, therefore she is not perfect.

It took a little longer than I thought, but someone has finally made reference to "homage to Aryans" (#85). Now there's cultural respect out of control. How did that happen? It happened because people were told what they wanted to hear to the aggrandizement of those doing the telling.

I doubt there's much of a market yet for Mexican identity. There won't be much unless it becomes an "ism". While I think Hernandez claim of wrongful cultural appropriation was probably justified given the nature of the people organizing the event, I am not willing to reflexively rush to her defense just because she made the claim. Across the spectrum of intercultural relations her claim is the strongest. For now. That might not be the case in the future.

It seems to me that an over emphasis on culture war issues of gender, race, religion and the rest create too much parasitic drag in light of the serious economic and environmental problems that face us. That's not to say that aggrieved parties on all sides of the issue have no merit nor that they should be ignored, but given the exigent circumstances these conflicts play to the advantage of those who benefit from ignoring the economic and environmental issues that affect us all regardless of race, gender or religion.

As Jay Gould once said, "You can always hire one half of the poor to kill the other half."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #94)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 12:10 PM

95. What people are missing is that Ms. Hernandez made no demands.

She expressed displeasure and offense at the proposed "phestivities" and she also said she wasn't surprised by them. She expressed this displeasure to the people AT Dartmouth who oversee "Greek Life" and diversity issues, and the dean--she didn't go outside the campus at all (this fact seems to be obscured in reports about this matter).

The people organizing the event then had a PRIVATE meeting--with no press allowed-- and they made the decision without any consultation or negotiation to just cancel the event. My theory is that they knew what the event was going to be about--and it included a lot of the hijinks and expropriation and trivialization that Ms. Hernandez was griping about.

This young woman is a junior; I am sure she's seen this shit before; it's an annual event and it is nationwide, and people at other schools in TX and CA have also complained about how insulting it is to Mexicans--of course, the Mexican population in CA and TX is a bit more robust than I suspect it is at Dartmouth College up there in the boondocks, so they probably didn't have to deal with the "spoilsport" charges this woman is enduring.

The two spokespeople (frat/sorority presidents) stated in the paper that they supported the cancellation of the event, that they made the decision in concert with the campus frat leadership unilaterally, and they then issued a joint letter saying they hope that in future there will be better communication between the "Dartmouth community" and the frat/sorority people when in comes to stuff like this.

Here's what I think--if people wouldn't objectify and/or mock one another's histories or cultures, they'd be better off and no one would feel marginalized, dehumanized or insulted. It's possible to have fun and not MAKE FUN of people. "It's all in good fun" and "Oh, they're just joking" is fine until it's your cultural experience that is being derided. And people who think they need to be "allowed" to mock others in stereotypical fashion, without any pushback, need to grow up a bit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #95)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 12:38 PM

96. Well, if all it takes is an expression of displeasure

to prompt such a reaction, that is heartening. I guess. She didn't have to actually say what she wanted and she got (petulant) results. Haven't there been complaints in years past all over the country? That probably gave her a lot of oomph as well.

But what if there had been a series of negotiations regarding the design of the event and the decorations, food, drink and costumes had to be approved by representatives of the Mexican community. Without their imprimatur the event would not be able to use them. And of course those wearing those costumes, now as representatives of that culture, would be required to comport themselves appropriately. Sound good? I just described a military uniform and the infrastructure to enforce its use.

In the end we are still left with the subjective standards surrounding the difference between mockery and homage, the flattery of imitation and the brutality of intimidation. That standard depends on the perceptions between people and their perceptions of themselves.

It sounds to me like it worked out pretty well. They planned the event and somebody said, "Hey, enough of that shit" so they cancelled. Of course all they had to do is nix the costumes, but they were pissed off and scored a few points of their own. Lessons learned on all sides.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #96)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 12:58 PM

98. All you have to do is look at some of the photos on the net and it is clear what these

frat "phi-estas" are all about. She wasn't saying anything that wasn't obvious to anyone who had participated in one of them in the past. There is no question that dressing up in a caricature costume--or even wearing a tee shirt depicting a sombrero and a halfassed/ersatz Aztec-ish design using the colors of the Mexican flag--is schmaltzy at best. And I really can't see a connection between eating American ideations of Mexican food overloaded with guacamole and chips, topped off by sweet drinks that are easily adulterated with adult beverage additions, and cardiac care, except maybe that eating that stuff might bring on some heart disease. They should find a way to associate the cause with the disease for which they are raising money.

The two Presidents of the frat and sorority didn't hesitate--they just shut it down, no muss, no fuss. The pushback is coming from a lot of right wing sites, many of whom are populated by people who can't spell "college" never mind "guacamole." I don't think most of the gripers calling poor Ms. Hernadez every name in the book, from A to C and beyond, were invited to this little shindig anyway--they just wanted to complain about this Mexican women trying to tell "them" what they can and can't do--but they didn't even have the facts right.

This kind of stuff is just falling out of favor now, and good thing. It's like playing cowboys and indians--children fifty or sixty years ago played that often and no one thought a thing of it. Nowadays, never mind the toy guns, the whole insult to indigenous peoples, who were portrayed by the kids who were almost always expected to keel over and die, is just mind-blowingly awful.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #36)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 05:23 PM

59. you well and truly nailed it, MaDem nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to steve2470 (Reply #59)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:11 PM

124. Thanks--I try! nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #124)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:20 PM

130. You did

Nailed it. Great writing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #29)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 04:20 AM

85. I guess I missed the part of the story about her demand for homage to Mexican culture.

"Aryans" and WASPs sure never demanded any homage to their cultures. Ask almost anyone else on the planet. Rule Britannia and America the Beautiful never really got popular in too many countries. Never quite caught on like "Yankee, go home" or "Imperialist, go home."

http://www.robertburns.org/works/97.shtml

At least all this young Hispanic woman did was make a comment.

BTW, is allegedly hard-wired human tribalism the pc way to refer to things like xenophobia?

After MSNBC finally kicked Buchanan to the curb, I haven't kept up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to merrily (Reply #85)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 10:17 AM

93. I'm a lot less interested in the particulars of a single occurrence

than in the cultural dynamics that surround it. And those dynamics include the tendency of people to focus on the particulars to the exclusion of an understanding of why they think the way they do and the application of basic human ethics regardless of race and ethnicity.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:38 PM

32. Hernandez said she was offended, and wrote to several authorities about it

Yesterday, upon hearing about the event, Daniela Hernandez ’15 sent an email to Greek Letter Organizations and Societies, GLOS director Wes Schaub, Dean of the College Charlotte Johnson, the Office of Pluralism and Leadership and the Panhellenic Council.

“There are various problematic structures and ideologies regarding a Cinco de Mayo-inspired event, and I am sure that we, as a Dartmouth community, could learn from the extensive literature written about the Americanization of Cinco de Mayo and its construction as a drinking holiday in the United States, cultural appropriation and the inappropriate usage of cultural clothing, and the exploitation of groups of people and cultures for the sake of business opportunities,” Hernandez said in an email to The Dartmouth.

While offended, Hernandez said she was not taken aback when she heard about the event.

“As a Mexican-born, United-States-raised, first-generation woman of color, it was sadly unsurprising that a culturally-themed party was seen as a casual venture for such a privileged institution such as Dartmouth,” she said. “I believe that social consciousness and cultural awareness is something that we need to work on as a community.”


That's not just asking for adjustments. As for 'getting shitfaced' - "free virgin piña coladas and strawberry daiquiris".

Since this is called an annual event, I guess what we need is the evidence of how it's been run in the past. If your claims of "stereotypical Mexican caricatures or mocking costumes or other stupidities" are correct, then it's a problem. But the description in the article doesn't seem a problem at all to me. It's basically Mexican-themed food and drink.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #32)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:39 PM

44. What do you want me to say? How "dare" a woman of Mexican heritage be offended?

Not surprised, but offended? She's a junior at the school, unless she transferred in, she's seen this shit before. And she sent her email of complaint to these "authorities," the people who oversee the fraternities, and the people at the school with an interest in diversity issues. The NERVE of her!

Yesterday, upon hearing about the event, Daniela Hernandez ’15 sent an email to Greek Letter Organizations and Societies, GLOS director Wes Schaub, Dean of the College Charlotte Johnson, the Office of Pluralism and Leadership and the Panhellenic Council.


To whom should she have griped instead? Her mother?

I don't see any demand in her letter that the thing be shut down. Could you point me to the sentence where she says "Shut this thing down, NOW!!" because I am apparently missing it. All I see is "This isn't cool, I don't like it."

How dare she give her perspective as a person from the culture to those who are expropriating it. What nerve! She should just sit down, shut up, and eat it, I suppose?

I'm tempted to drag out the "uppity" word, but I really don't want to go there.

If you don't understand how underaged drinkers manage to bring their own alcohol to these events and add it to their "virgin" beverages, you must not have any children or grandchildren in American colleges or universities, and/or not have ANY interaction with youngsters who do this sort of thing routinely. Just because they're cough-haha-cough "serving" those "virgin" drinks doesn't mean that's what the kids are actually drinking.

Also, if you run an image search of the term "phiesta" you find a lot of imagery from national fraternity organizations, and some of it is in Speedy Gonzalez territory. I think dismissing her concerns, vilifying her for having the fortitude to bring it up, or otherwise whining that "ONE complaint shut down our party" is lame as hell.

Phiesta at Hopkins:



I think Dartmouth has more than a few problems--I'm so glad one of my family decided against that place:

Similar concerns were raised last summer after Alpha Delta fraternity and Delta Delta Delta sorority co-hosted a “Bloods and Crips”-themed party, sparking national media attention. Tri Delt and AD presidents proposed a new Greek Leadership Council policy asking Greek organizations that receive complaints regarding community standards to adjudicate the accused individuals in-house or participate in mediation sessions with the complainants.


It's all fun and games until it's your ox being gored!

I wonder how people would like it if a celebration of British heritage included something like people dressed up in bowlers and brollys with Billy Bob teeth and gallon bottles of gin (because, ya know, the "stereotype" is that British people are gin-soaked and have crappy teeth), or if a celebration of French heritage included people costumed as mimes with a yellow stripe down their back with those car deodorizing Xmas tree fresheners hanging off their armpits (because, ya know, the "stereotype" is that French people smell and they let Hitler roll into Paris without fighting back).

Those are offensive images I've just described, and I don't think people would take kindly to them if they happened ALL THE TIME, year in and year out, across the country. There would be pushback and it would be substantial. And if the people doing the mocking of the British or French were predominantly black or brown, well, stand by for heavy weather... you'd hear cries of "THIS. SHALL. NOT. STAND!!!!" that would have made Poppy Bush sound like he was whispering.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #44)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 04:31 PM

51. The problem is you think the organisers caved too easily

You're complaining they 'took their ball home'. You want them to not listen to her.

"To whom should she have griped instead?" Well, to the fraternities themselves ("Hernandez’s email was not sent directly to the presidents of A Phi or Phi Delt, but Schaub later alerted them to the email".

Since the photo is from Hopkins, not Dartmouth, it's not really relevant. The "Crips and Bloods" was by different fraternities.

Are moustaches really as offensive to you as saying someone smells or is cowardly? As for 'Billy Bob teeth' for the British - that gets dragged out on DU often enough, so I wouldn't expect anyone to object to it on a campus - I presume it's an accepted part of American life (eg on The Simpsons). And pretending people having moustaches does seem less offensive than that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #51)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 07:48 PM

69. No, I'm not saying what you think I am saying at ALL.

They could have continued on with the event, or stayed and negotiated; the fact that they didn't doesn't necessarily mean that they "caved too easily." It could mean that they said Oh shit--the days of the Pancho Villa and Zorro/Sgt Garcia costumes are at an end. No more speedy Gonzalez, no more drinking contests to the tune of "La Cucaracha," no more dressing up as border crossers or drug dealers for laughs.

Now you're trying to negotiate what's "more" offensive--those English and French examples were provided to broaden the discussion to characteristics that Europeans are aware of and in my lifetime resented when "Ugly Americans" mocked them about those things, not to play "What's worse on a scale of One to Ten."

The offense happens when the person being mocked feels the insult. If a Mexican sees someone in a fake mustache and poncho and sombrero slamming back shots and "Ay-ay-ay-aying" and they feel insulted, it's not for you to tell them how they "should" feel. It's not "just" a mustache. It's not "just" a costume. It's a trivialization of culture.

You cannot dictate how you want people to feel--you just cannot.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #69)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 08:05 PM

70. So when the woman said she was offended by the event with quasi-Mexican food, they accepted that

and cancelled the event. But you criticise that as "taking their ball home". I think you need to be consistent on this - don't say that, and then say "you cannot dictate how you want people to feel". Negotiating would have been telling her to not be offended.

I also think it would help if you stopped assuming there would also be all kinds of things like "Pancho Villa and Zorro/Sgt Garcia costumes", "speedy Gonzalez", "drinking contests to the tune of "La Cucaracha"", "dressing up as border crossers or drug dealers", or "someone in a fake mustache and poncho and sombrero slamming back shots and "Ay-ay-ay-aying"". What we know about is the food and drink. You are stereotyping students, in fact.

I am telling you that comparing a tired stereotype of large moustaches to calling the French cowards is not a reasonable comparison. You could compare it to French styles of hair (stereotype: moustaches again, but not so large).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #70)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 09:05 PM

72. Did you even read what she wrote? I can't believe that you did.

"Negotiating" would not be "telling her not to be offended." "Negotiating" would involve perhaps highlighting aspects of culture and the purpose of the holiday, maybe dumping the costumes and the cocktail drinks, perhaps including a film. Her concerns were about commodification and trivialization, and those aspects were troubling to her.

Again, go have a look at what "Phiesta" is all about online--this shit happens across the country at fraternities and sororities, so much that national fraternity and sorority organizations have pre-made templates up and ready to roll for their events. They aren't celebrating Mexican heritage, they're hauling out the mustaches and sombreros.



















Apparently you're missing the aspect of the poncho'd, mustachioed and sombrero'd Mexican as "lazy" with his mañana attitude...but again, YOU can "tell" me all you' like, but since YOU are not the one who is offended, YOU are not the decider.

See how that works? Maybe you don't...but it doesn't matter. You aren't a member of the group being trivialized. You don't get to dictate how they are allowed to feel about it.

And get a load of this--apparently there have been complaints about these "phiestas" in other locations, as well--the trivialization issue is NOT a one-off:

http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/02/usc_frat_planned_a_racist_rager_but_a_mexican-american_student_put_them_on_blast.html

USC Frat Planned a ‘Racist Rager’ Until a Mexican-American Student Put Them on Blast




A few hours after the event was posted, the description was edited to include “what not to expect”: “border patrol, pickpockets, those kids selling you chicle gum, (and) Montezuma’s Revenge.” Classy, indeed.



Is this what Mexican culture has been reduced to? An entire country, an entire people, an entire tradition is recognized solely by negative stereotypes. Is it not possible to hold a party without the predictably offensive costumes and mocking accents? Will it be less of a good time if guests refrain from obvious racism? I highly doubt it.

It is offensive that race is so easily used as a party theme. This is not the first “fiesta” and I am sure that it will not be the last, but I’m not waiting for the party to be over before I speak up. I’m not waiting for the pictures of drawn-on mustaches, illegal immigrants and gardeners to make the rounds on Facebook. I’m not waiting for my heritage to be ridiculed before I start my protest.


I think you are in need of a bit of that cultural awareness training. You plainly don't get it. But trust me, if people of Mexican heritage say they are offended, you can trust them that they ARE offended--even if you don't think they should be.

Still think it's no big deal?

http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/12766/two-ut-sororities-throw-racially-questionable-fiesta-party

Two UT Sororities Throw Racially Questionable "Fiesta" Party

As of Fall 2011, 20% of UT's student body is Hispanic. But that isn't stopping a couple of sororities from throwing a party chock full of racist stereotypes about Mexicans and Mexican-Americans.

Last night, two sororities, Zeta Tau Alpha and Delta Delta Delta, hosted their annual "Zeta-Tri Delt Fiesta Party" at Recess Bar on 6th street. They rented the bar out until 12:30p.m. for their hundreds of guests, many of whom wore ponchos and other stereotypical Mexican garb of a bygone era.

Now, I don't believe that wearing tradition Mexican attire is inherently racist. But I do know that you have to be classy about it. Laying down some ground rules for attire would have been a much better step for the sororities, instead of encouraging hundreds of drunk Texas Greeks to parade around 6th street in clothing which suggests that this is what Mexicans and Mexican-Americans wear. Anyone who's been to a modern-day fiesta knows that this isn't how people dress.

Unfortunately, having no rules led these two sororities to host a party which also accepted, and obviously encouraged, outright racism. See the picture in this post, taken from the event. What the hell does an undocumented immigrant and a border patrol officer have to do with a fiesta party, which is supposed to be a celebration of Mexican-American culture? The "illegals" are clearly what some students thought this party was a referendum on. If you're not an "illegal" - a crude, dehumanizing term suggesting that a person's entire existence is defined by the status of their papers - then you're an ancient Mexican stereotype divorced from today's society. This type of dress should absolutely have been banned by two sororities claiming to be stand-up members of the UT and Austin communities.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #72)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 04:14 AM

84. Again, you need to be consistent - if a 'Cinque de Mayo' event is offensive, then they did the right

thing by stopping it when told it's offensive by someone born in Mexico. Don't whine that they're "taking their ball and going home".

All the pictures you've found are from elsewhere. So you think that it's impossible for any fraternity or sorority in the country to hold one of these events and not be offensive, if you think they're relevant to Dartmouth. This event listed some food and drink, and that was enough to offend Hernandez. She contacted multiple authorities about it, rather than the event organisers. She clearly wanted it shut down, rather than asking the organisers to make adjustments.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #84)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 08:12 AM

87. I am being consistent, and I am telling you that these "phiesta" events, run by fraternities,

and sororities, are not "Cinco de Mayo events" in that they celebrate the culture and the heritage of Mexico. They expropriate the holiday, they use outdated, unkind and disrespectful stereotypes, and they date and event are used as backdrop for a party that reinforces these negative stereotypes.

This is why this woman--and many others around the nation, as I took the time the illustrate--are annoyed at this disrespectful "interpretation." This is a "national" effort, you know, not just something that has happened at Dartmouth. Other schools have gotten pushback about it as well and I have provided links illustrating that. The national fraternity/sorority leadership that oversees this event is going to have to do some recalibrating.

You don't know what offended Hernandez, or what she thought, plainly--you apparently didn't read her words. She wasn't offended by "food and drink." She was offended by an expropriation and trivialization of a culture. And, FWIW, the "event organizers" were the Greek Houses and she DID contact their leadership, per the link(s). There was a private meeting, held by the event organizers, and they decided unilaterally to cancel the event.

The conservative blogs and right wing student organizations are absolutely furious at this (uppity) woman. How dare she ruin their burrito-and-costumed fun! Well, too bad for them!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #87)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 08:26 AM

88. The expropriation and trivialization consisted of food and drink

She didn't contact the fraternity or sorority, who were the event organisers; she contacted "Greek Letter Organizations and Societies, GLOS director Wes Schaub, Dean of the College Charlotte Johnson, the Office of Pluralism and Leadership and the Panhellenic Council." "Hernandez’s email was not sent directly to the presidents of A Phi or Phi Delt, but Schaub later alerted them to the email".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #88)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 08:48 AM

89. No, it didn't--it consisted of drinking and costumes, which, though "discouraged"

in past years (because of complaints at other fraternities) still appeared last year and were expected to appear this year as well.

And you are wrong about who she contacted--she contacted the leadership of the fraternity/sorority system AT Dartmouth, who had authority over the party organizers, as your OWN citation proves.

She contacted the fraternity leadership AT DARTMOUTH, and the diversity leadership at Dartmouth (the dean and the Pluralism office) and the Panhellenic council (the Greek House sorority reps AT DARTMOUTH. These people are the ones who report to the national offices on behalf of the Greek Houses at Dartmouth who were sponsoring the event). GLOS and PANHELL (who are AT Dartmouth) were the leadership representatives of the sponsors of this event.

She did her job. She, in effect, appropriately used the Greek House chain of command, and went to the senior frat/sorority level AT DARTMOUTH to express her concerns. The party organizers, in turn, held a private meeting (a reporter was denied access) and decided to cancel. They clearly knew what their party was about, or what it would devolve into, so they cut their exposure by cancelling the event.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #89)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:24 AM

90. The description in the OP does not include costumes

Yes, the point is she did not try to talk to the organisers; she went to authorities. Not the people who say "we're doing Mexican-themed food and drink", the people who say "this is a problem, and can't go ahead". She, like you, doesn't seem to trust the organisers to stick to what they said they were going to do; she didn't contact them. So they decided to cancel. They didn't have anyone to talk to about what was unsuitable. But you whine that they made it a 'pissing contest'. I can't see that any action by them would have satisfied you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #90)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:36 AM

91. Look, I went to the source, the Dartmouth paper, and I read not only the

news coverage, but the comments by the students as well. You can do that, too, and come to your own conclusions. My understanding after taking the time to do this is that there were "more than one" person who took issue with this event, that the local "Greek House" leadership weighed in, but that the organizers on the ground, after holding a PRIVATE meeting that the local college reporter was barred from attending, decided to shitcan the event. THEY decided. THEY knew what was going to happen if they held the event--and what would happen would include the very things this woman was "whining" about.

I'm not "whining." I'm just sadly, not surprised, at some of the attitudes I'm seeing here. They're unprogressive, to put it mildly.

I don't need to be "satisfied," either--why would you even say such a thing? It's not my alma mater and fortunately no one in my family is attending there. I don't think you should have such a fit of pique that I hold the view that people should be treated with dignity and respect...it's not a difficult concept.

That said, the organizers could have gone forward--and perhaps in future years they will--by making their event about the charity they are supporting, instead of making it about ersatz ethnic food and sweet drinks that are easily spiked--and "discouraged" costumes, that, if you believe some of the students who weighed in on the discussion, neverless appear in force annually. If they really wanted to be clever, and appropriate to the supported cause, they'd move the event to February--it would be more fitting, anyway.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #72)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:45 PM

128. What, no donkeys and saguaro cactus?!

 

Good lord. Seeing this, and there are posters who are still adamantly refusing to "get it"?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #128)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:41 PM

132. Really--why not a cactus - shaped keg...?


Most of the really nasty griping across the internet is coming from blatantly right wing sites...they aren't even getting the facts straight, either.

I will say I'm kind of surprised at some of the pushback here. I guess where you stand, for some, depends on where you sit..?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #44)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 05:43 PM

122. "The Fighting Whities"

 

I wonder how people would like it if a celebration of British heritage included something like people dressed up in bowlers and brollys with Billy Bob teeth and gallon bottles of gin (because, ya know, the "stereotype" is that British people are gin-soaked and have crappy teeth), or if a celebration of French heritage included people costumed as mimes with a yellow stripe down their back with those car deodorizing Xmas tree fresheners hanging off their armpits (because, ya know, the "stereotype" is that French people smell and they let Hitler roll into Paris without fighting back).

What you mention HAS happened. It was intended to be insulting--but instead, there was a huge demand for "Fighting Whities" team stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YarnAddict (Reply #122)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:07 PM

123. I use "The Fighting Whities" as an example often--however, that's one small team at a

community college that made a little money selling amusing tee shirts and it doesn't quite work in the context I offered.

There isn't a Fighting Whities Day every year, where people of every persuasion dress up as Whities and pretend to fight one another. It's just not the same thing. People don't, like clockwork, have a day where they act out, in stereotypical and drunken fashion, the cultural traditions of people from "Whitieland." More to the point, not all British people are white, nor are all French people.

You see, this isn't about race, specifically (Mexicans, like Americans and people from many other nations as well, are multi-racial, though they do have a strong indigenous heritage through a fairly large swathe of their population), this is more about an insult to a particular--and very specific-- culture. You can find white people all around the world. A Russian "Whitie" isn't the same as a Canadian "Whitie" nor are they the same as a New Zealand "Whitie." But a Mexican of any race has a very long, proud and specific heritage, and much of the symbolism on display on the t-shirts sold at these parties is stereotypical at best, negative at worst.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #32)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:41 PM

46. and one persons complaints

Shouldnt be fiven so much weight as no matter whatbub do someone will find offense...Always.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #46)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 12:35 AM

76. Not "one woman" -- reread the thread. Click the links.

People have been complaining about this in Texas and in California for years now--it is a national problem.

It's prejudicial and wrong.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #13)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:17 PM

24. All chartered Greek organizations have agreements and commitments to uphold basic mission

 

related principles of their associated college or university, as well as to honor school bylaws and policies. These are written into their charters and are effectively binding for them.

There's no doubt that cultural appropriation happens all the time, and that seeking to stop cultural appropriation is a fool's errand. But that's very different than an officially-related organization holding official events that contradict a school's mission, or even written policy and bylaws. Whether that's happened here is unclear, but it seems plausible that an investigation might have shown it to be the case. That's not a matter of "controlling cultural appropriation." It's a matter of arguing for commitments to an organization's own charter and its agreements with a college or university to be honored.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:38 PM

31. Yeah, but that sort of kicks the can down the road doesn't it?

The next question to ask is whether or not the school's policy and bylaws are correct. I don't know.

As I recall, there was a "Bloods and Crips" thing that got a fair bit of attention last year, and maybe this year they decided to take the attitude, "shit, we can't do anything right" and cancelled the event to spite the person complaining.

This kind of thing happens at universities all the time. It's part of their value as laboratories for cultural change.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rrneck (Reply #31)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:46 PM

47. The relevant bylaw/policy would likely be a statement that the institution respects diversity

 

and does not endorse official events that make a mockery of other's cultures.

It gets kicked down the road a bit on the interpretation of whether *this* (meaning any this) particular event meets that basic standard, but policies of this kind themselves are hardly controversial.

They are statements of basic decency at the institutional level.

All policy-ese aside, the institutions have a mission-driven policy for basic decency (in their events and otherwise), and ask their affiliate chartered organizations to honor that as well. That doesn't seem questionable at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:18 PM

26. Your concern is noted.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 02:45 PM

33. Yes, cancellation of frat parties is a *huge* problem. The humanity!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DanTex (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:41 PM

45. They got some pushback about a "crips and bloods" party last year. See upthread. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:13 PM

41. I think being PC is sometimes an excuse to ignore horrific injustice.

 

Someone might attack a Cinco de Mayo event called "Phiesta" as culturally insensitive, for example, but defend all sort of horrendous ideas about how to treat those Mexicans who, because they need to feed their families, illegally cross borders. (Many of these horrendous ideas, by the way, are promoted by Democrats no less than Republicans.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:50 PM

48. how pc for a vast majority of whites not be able to create a hostile environment for the minority

 

of latinos?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 03:53 PM

49. It's really not that hard not be offensive.

I suppose it is, though, if you're not used to it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 04:40 PM

53. Re-thinking the event so it offends no minority group is an issue,

even at DU and even though the Greek letter organizations were glad to do it.

Amazing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to merrily (Reply #53)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 05:10 PM

56. Feel like you've entered a Free Republic thread?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to boston bean (Reply #56)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 04:02 AM

83. I've never heard Republicans complain about the p.c. culture, have you?

I wonder why they started those complaints? I'm confident it was not because people kept calling them on their remarks and behaviors. ("out of context"




Thanks for the link. Thing is, I always thought we were supposed to be way better than FREEP.

Yeah, I wonder what motivates people, especially Democrats, to resent the alleged pc culture that worries about turning minorities groups into caricatures, like a grinning, watermelon-planting and eating POTUS, even if the college kids actually called on it in real life were grateful for the wake up call.

I flat out love Colbert. If I miss a show, I catch up on the weekend.

But, even I was not on his side with that over the top impression of a Chinese person. That uber squinty-eyed, grinning "speakie Engrish velly well" thing can't ever have been that funny, even in a Charlie Chan movie.

Difference with Colbert is, despite his attempt at rebuttal, I'd be surprised if I ever see it or anything like it again from him. And I would have been surprised, even if he continued his character for another ten years.

That said, I can't watch to watch him. Funny how he ended up opposing his friend Jimmie, after their fake feud over the public demand for the Benny and Jerry flavors inspired by them.

(I think Jimmie had the built in advantage there, too. Potato chips, chocolate and ice cream in one food? Where can I sign up?)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 04:43 PM

54. First of all

We Mexicans don't celebrate cinco de mayo. It's el 16 de Septiembre. Second, Mexicans don't serve chips and salsa at parties. Burritos? They would take your Mexican card away.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azmom (Reply #54)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 03:34 AM

81. ?????

I have never been to a Mexican party that didnt have chips and salsa lol...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #81)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:57 AM

92. I'm from the state

Of Sinaloa. No chips or salsa ever. not if you want to keep it authentic. I personally celebrate Mexico's Independence Day which is Sept. 16th and mostly consists of listening to the "Grito"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azmom (Reply #92)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:09 PM

101. my copadres are from

Michocan and every party has lot's of beer, chips salsa , ranch dip (for the ladies) and lots of loud music.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #101)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:46 PM

111. It's compadres and Michoacan.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azmom (Reply #111)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:59 PM

113. One would think ...

 

Nahhh!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azmom (Reply #111)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:00 PM

114. There you go, getting all facty on us. Wow. Just wow.

 

Unbelievable.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to closeupready (Reply #114)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:10 PM

116. they even have one of those margarita blenders with the spout on it

Lol.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #116)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:27 PM

120. Okay, who

Are these people because they need to turn in their Mexican card in, pronto!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azmom (Reply #111)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 10:45 PM

133. And with that, you just ate this dumb thread and drank that poster's milk shake

I am so sorry that you've got people actually ARGUING with you about your own damned culture. Welcome to DU, where some people know EVERYTHING, especially the shit they know nothing about.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Number23 (Reply #133)

Tue Apr 29, 2014, 10:37 AM

135. Funny, huh? ...

 

In a very sad, white liberalism way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azmom (Reply #92)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:10 PM

102. Thank you for weighing in on this

When in doubt - go to the people whose 'experience' it is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #102)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:39 PM

109. Thanks

We Mexican people have a beautiful culture. I wish people would take the time to explore it. It really has nothing to do with beer, chips and salsa and burritos or cinco de mayo celebrations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to azmom (Reply #54)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:32 PM

131. Cinco de Mayo is celebrated mostly in America...

Hence burritos, chips and salsa, etc. etc. Though, I gotta say some Tex-Mex is delicious. I love more exclusively Mexican food, when I can get my hands on it. It can be hard to find in many parts of the US.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 05:18 PM

57. You're trying too hard.

Call it a day, already.

Seriously, hasn't this week been sickening enough on this front?

Oh, and.....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #57)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 09:12 PM

73. I hear you Bobbie Jo

 

yes INDEED

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #57)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:11 PM

103. Look up at azmom's posts

right above this. Thank god that poster showed up! That just ended the thread.

Azmom wins the internet today!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Sun Apr 27, 2014, 05:27 PM

60. Overreaching a little bit there, aren't you?

 



BTW, the money raised from that event would have gone towards cardiac care. Now that the event is canceled, they're not going to get that money.

What's worse, the possibility that someone might be offended, or donating proceeds from said event to a hospital?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #60)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:03 PM

115. Probably depends on whether it is YOU that possibly might be offended ...

 

Besides, is it not possible to have a fund-raising party, without misappropriating the culture of another group as the theme? Yep ... I'm pretty sure it's done ... a lot.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #115)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:20 PM

117. It's funny seeing people who aren't actually latino

 

complain that the name of this fundraiser is racist.

I highly doubt racism was implied when they named the fundraiser. Is the name stupid? Yes. But racist? Doubtful.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #117)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:23 PM

118. It it's even funnier seeing people who aren't actually latino ...

 

arguing that a party-theme isn't racist.

BTW, all the "Pimps and Hoes" themed parties aren't racist, either; it's just those that attend (including the sponsors) that make them so.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #118)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:26 PM

119. You do know what a portmanteau is, right?

 

I didn't realize the word "fiesta" was racist.



I should destroy my car because the model name may offend someone.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #119)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 02:30 PM

121. Not in this context ...

 

an google wasn't particularly helpful, either.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #119)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:20 PM

126. It's not about the NAME. The wingnuts would have you believe that, but don't get your news from

them and you'll see that the issue raised by Ms. Hernandez (and others in past years in TX and CA, for starters) is not about a name. It's about negative stereotypes.

The sorority and fraternity president AGREED with Ms. Hernandez. They cancelled the event without negotiating or modifying because they realized it was just an idea that might have passed muster twenty or forty years ago, but in this multicultural age it is offensive. It trivializes a heritage on or near the day that heritage is supposed to be celebrated in a positive way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #126)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:34 PM

127. A Mexican - themed party is offensive?

 

Really?

Really?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #127)

Tue Apr 29, 2014, 10:35 AM

134. It doesn't take much imagination ...

 

to see how the Mexican-theme will be exploited ... in the same way "Pimps and Hoes" themed party, are exploited to cast Black folks in a mocking light.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #127)

Wed Apr 30, 2014, 01:59 PM

136. A party that uses antiquated peasant symbols in stereotypical fashion IS offensive.

They aren't celebrating Mexican culture--they are celebrating the imagery of a peasant in sombrero and serape, with giant moustache and bandoliers, drunk on his ass on tequila, while eating ersatz Mexican food that would be unrecognizable to your average Mexican south of the border.

It's called negative stereotyping, and anyone with a hint of a progressive mindset could understand what this woman's point is without having to engage in such heated pushback in a futile attempt to defend the indefensible.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #117)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:15 PM

125. It's not the "name" that is at issue specifically.

It's the negative stereotyping, the sombreros and serapes, the ersatz food and drink, the trivialization of a culture and a heritage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #115)

Wed Apr 30, 2014, 02:09 PM

140. "PC" is code for "white people inconvenienced." n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orsino (Reply #140)

Wed Apr 30, 2014, 02:37 PM

141. LOL ...

 

I've found that those making the "PC" argument are merely white folks whining about not being allowed to be rude.

Note: the only PoC that I have ever seen critical of "PC", appear on the Townhall blog, so I don't count them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:17 PM

104. couldn't possibly have found another name for the event, had to cancel it entirely?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to unblock (Reply #104)

Wed Apr 30, 2014, 02:06 PM

138. It's not the name--it's the negative stereotyping that goes with their choice of theme.

The "ignorant, lazy" peasant outfits, the boozing (notwithstanding the "virgin" drinks--anyone who has been in college knows how that is played), the cheapening of cultural symbols...it's tasteless and insulting.

The people who organized the event were the ones who called it off. They had a private meeting and made the decision. The woman who wrote the letter wasn't part of that; she didn't even ask for the thing to be cancelled--she simply expressed a POV that the event was tasteless and she wasn't surprised.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneofthe99 (Original post)

Wed Apr 30, 2014, 02:08 PM

139. Maher was tying to understand why average people vote republican

 

and he thinks that our political correctness police might have something to do with it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread