Single Payer "had 8 or 10 votes and that’s it” - Bernie Sanders.

[denem]

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/sanders-single-payer-never-had-a-chance.php

'Single Payer or nothing' equals nothing. This is a dead parrot

[DefenseLawyer]

1. The insurance industry owns enough Senators

To keep it that way.

[mother earth]

2. That's the problem, but it was also before Occupy. I think there will be a huge backlash if

Obamacare is struck down. I think it's going to come back to bite them.

I think single payer is just inevitable...they've tried so hard not to go that route, but in the end, it's the only right way to get the job done.

[denem]

9. On the contrary, since 1946, the votes on the floor for single payer have been vanishing.

Truman couldn't pass it. There were less votes in 1971-74 (Kennedy), less again in the DLC era: 1994 (Clinton), and 8 to 10 in 2009.

[mother earth]

21. I don't care what the votes were. The reality is that nothing will touch the climbing costs without

going to single payer. It will happen. We've got lobbyists for everything but, what will actually benefit the citizenry, the taxpayers.

[denem]

51. 'I dont care what the votes were'

what, like Iraq, or the Patriot act. Are you sure?

[mother earth]

55. Don't mislead, I believe that vote is outdated & would not be so today, on all counts. Single payer

should have been on the table and fought for instead of the feebleness at the beginning...an increment of HCR was won because it was never taken on with full focus and intent. (I guess we know the foolishness of Iraq & the Patriot Act, neither of which has made us any better, none of which was ever up to us.)

Do you actually like your defeatist attitude? I don't know the vote count back then, so I trust your numbers are correct (albeit outdated), but as others have stated beyond the big corp. profit motive, there's the in-the-pocket politicians and lobbyist-heavy form of governing some still accept as a democracy at work here.

Don't blame the rest of us if we refuse to accept the heist. Don't be surprised if the change you think is unobtainable is actually what is what the majority of people would want. We never had the option, nor do we maintain a level of representation except by a select few. I suspect quite a different picture is emerging today. But, hey stay tuned.

[denem]

3. The 'enough senators' is around 90 Senators opposed to Single Payer.

Case closed.

[CTyankee]

8. What if Occupy and the press started revealing the donations to those Senators from

health care insurance companies? Wouldn't that make a difference?

I can see an opening here for Occupy. It may not work immediately but if sustained and carried forward, it could be a force for change. I have seen movements morph in the past, look at the Civil Rights Movement and the Antiwar movement...they got change, didn't they?

[Tarheel_Dem]

24. I'm sorry, but this is not a cause I think Occupy will readily take up. From it's inception......

there was a strong libertarian undercurrent, with some progressives thrown into the mix. Libertarians are free marketeers, and I can almost assure you that they would come down on the side of insurance companies, much like Greenwald came down on the side of the Citizens United ruling.

I don't think we'll get to single payer in our lifetime, and that's really sad.

[CTyankee]

34. I don't see them coming down on behalf of the insurance companies. I think they seem them

as part of the problem, not the solution. But it is true that their original complaint was against Wall Street and its excesses.

We shall see how they will get larger in their scope, if they do. I think you will be happily surprised...

[karynnj]

18. It's not that - there are far too many people in government

who are ideologically against it - they do not need to be paid.

[mike_c]

4. no, it isn't a dead parrot....

Single payer was dead BEFORE arrival because it was purposefully kept out of the national debate. Let Obama OFFER Medicare to everyone and then see what happens if Congress refuses to consider it or attempts to prevent funding. Gonna be a LOT of seats up for grabs when that happens. Single payer was deliberately kept off the table precisely to prevent the debate that would follow.

[denem]

10. I'll back Senator Sanders over commentators, any day or time.

He was there. He wanted it. There were around NINETY votes opposed.

Thought experiments with alternative histories, are fun but pure fiction

[laundry_queen]

12. It's called marketing.

People are surprisingly easy to brainwash. Just look at how republicans have managed to convince people to vote against their own interests with marketing. All PBO had to do was get in front of cameras, run a few ads and he would have had people flooding their representatives with calls and it would have been a much closer vote seeing as this is in people's best interest. It's clear there just isn't the will. People will be led - they just need leaders to do so, and a willing media.

[Tarheel_Dem]

28. Do you have any actual data to back up your assertion? Are you contradicting Sen Sanders.....

who was actually in the room? The whole time he was campaigning, did Pres. Obama ever promise to deliver single payer? He couldn't even get a public option past these people, how do you think he was gonna do an ad blitz and get us single payer?

So much of what passes for debate at DU these days is just so much noise, and I'm sorry, but your "woulda" "coulda" "shoulda" hypotheses bear no resemblance to the actual reality that is/was our US Congress.

You guys keep trying to blame the President for something he neither promoted, nor promised. Bernie said there were 9 to 10 votes for it. Who should know better than the man who was actually the biggest proponent?

[laundry_queen]

47. Marketing data, yes.

And yes, I think if he did an ad blitz, he would have had a significantly higher chance of passing single payer or at least starting a SERIOUS dialogue. Marketing data shows that people are very easily convinced with the right type of marketing. Too easily convinced. Why do you think people spend billions for the as-seen-on-tv crap? Because they want a slice of a better life and they are CONVINCED via marketing that this piece of crap will improve their life.

And when has congress EVER been in tune with the American people? However, convince a lot of people that their congress people are holding back their chance at a better life and see congress change their mind in a hurry when the letters/emails come pouring in.

I'm saying the President should have proposed it, and if he really wanted to, he could've passed it. Either he didn't want to, or he was too timid to even propose it.

I'm not contradicting Sanders - he's right. And they only had that many votes BECAUSE they didn't do any marketing before hand.

[Tarheel_Dem]

48. Link?

You gave me more woulda's and shoulda's & if's again. The president should've done this, and he should've done that, and blah...blah...blah...

My question to you was when did President, or even Candidate Obama promise to propose single payer? Which presidential candidate did? And what happened to that candidate?

Single payer has become a religion among activists, but I thought the whole noble attempt at healthcare reform was supposed to be about access. ACA will provide access. Timidity had nothing to do with it, because the president, and apparently the Democratic Congress live in the real world.

Nine to ten votes? Are you kidding me? It was never going to happen, and if the ACA is struck down, it will be another generation (or two) before any Democrat bothers to take it up again.

[laundry_queen]

58. Sorry no links to my textbooks

or my marketing prof. The textbook is the 4th Canadian edition of "Marketing" by Lamb et al if that helps.

My argument with you is the President should have proposed single payer. He never did nor did he promise it. I don't know why you are asking a question that has nothing to do with what I am saying. My point is that those who are saying it could never pass, he never promised it, etc are being defeatist, plain and simple. How would you even know if you don't try?

Reminds me of my mother. Everytime as a child that I brought up something I wanted to do or be when I grew up, "You'll never be able to do that." "You're not built for THAT" "you need to have talent for that." If that's what you hear all the time, that's what you end up internalizing. And you'll never get anywhere in life. (just ask me, it's taken me years of therapy to get back in school and really make progress and choose a career) Anyone who is a big success in life never had that type of narrative at home.

Imagine the world if everyone was as defeatist as you are. There would be NO progress.

Even IF single payer got laughed out of congress, it would be in the public narrative. Do you think Canada ended up with single payer overnight? No, it was a huge struggle. The point being is a few people thought it was possible and knew it was for the best and they fought for it. That's all any of us are asking for - that someone fights for it. Once it is in the public narrative, support will pick up. If single payer is shoved off to the side as a completely unreasonable choice, then that is exactly what it will become, and the US will suffer for it.

[Tarheel_Dem]

61. I thought not!

[laundry_queen]

65. Maybe get off the net and read the book I cited. nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

66. I think I'll get my reading suggestions elsewhere, but thanks bunches!

[laundry_queen]

67. Here's one.

http://www.audiencedialogue.net/socmark.html

Doubt you care though.

Most of the other ones were in journals that you need access to. I have access through my university but doubt you do.

[Tarheel_Dem]

68. I hope you don't mind if I've completely lost interest in this conversation. Thanks.

[laundry_queen]

70. Not surprised. nt

[woo me with science]

69. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=472947

And this is WITHOUT an ad blitz. Imagine if politicians stopped pretending that single payer is impossible.

What a tired Third Way tactic that is...to claim that things would never pass, so of course we can't talk about them.

[Tarheel_Dem]

71. Talk away! Who's stopping you? I can't imagine anyone stifling your dissent!

[TheWraith]

17. It's funny that you think the Republicans are at all bound by public opinion. nt

[YellowRubberDuckie]

25. With this House...

...we're not getting shit. So stop pretending.

[spanone]

5. lots of folks here dreaming that if ACA goes down we'll get single payer. dream on.....

[girl gone mad]

6. Of course.

TARP didn't have a chance in hell of passing either, until Obama stepped in and saved the day. In politics you fight for the things you want. You don't just take a survey and give up completely when the numbers are against you. You use your clout, your connections and every other bit of leverage you've got. Single payer should have been on the table from the beginning. If we could never get the votes, the public option should have been the end result. Instead, single payer proponents were arrested and the public option was traded away before negotiations even began. A stupid and dangerous ploy that could cost the administration everything.

[denem]

11. On Cloture, single payer was 50 votes SHORT

That's not 'a chance in hell' its a day dream.

[CrispyQ]

41. There was a time when the United States of America was just a day dream.

When we fight only for what we think we can win, it diminishes us.

[laundry_queen]

59. B-I-N-G-O. nt

[CrispyQ]

19. Agreed.

That was the summer of the AREA medical event in Los Angeles. Even the media covered that event! They had reporters on the ground asking people what medical procedure they were there for.

Obama could have gone on TV & said, "This is what single payer is, only better - you can go to the doctor of your choice in your town & not have to pay." Instead, he was quiet all summer while the teabaggers controlled the message with their killing grandma bullshit & a prime opportunity to educate the People & to control the message was missed.

I believe Obama was more concerned with getting any kind of health care bill passed, not necessarily a good one.

[Tarheel_Dem]

30. "I believe Obama was more concerned with getting any kind of health care bill passed"

Well, you're certainly free to believe what you want. Thank goodness this president is a practical man, who realizes that incremental change is better than no change at all. For those of you who are "all or nothing", you'll never be convinced that your way may not be the right way to advance.

It's difficult for me to fathom that so called "liberals" are calling for ACA to be struck down. Wasn't the goal of healthcare reform to get more people covered? Doesn't ACA do that? And can it not be improved upon, just like Social Security was? Or was this just another ideological fight with the insurance companies? Shouldn't access to healthcare be the primary concern here?

But hey, don't let me stand in the way of a good rant.

[CrispyQ]

36. I didn't call for it to be struck down nor did I call for all or nothing.

I simply agreed that the President didn't fight for single payer. It was off the table before the fight began.

Why is it, when this point is brought up, it is translated into "The current bill sucks & should not have been passed & does absolutely no good at all"? I think there are some good things in this bill, but there's some shit too.

Even if single payer wasn't possible, we'll never know how much better this bill could have been if the President had fought for single payer, spoken out in favor of single payer, put the power of the Presidency behind single payer.

But hey, don't let me stand in the way of a good rant.

[Tarheel_Dem]

44. Did Candidate Obama express any interest in pursuing "Single Payer"?

Let's not try to rewrite history. And why would President Obama have "fought for"; "spoken out in favor of"; or "put the power of the Presidency behind" something he didn't campaign on?
Was there any democratic candidate who ran on single payer?

That makes absolutely no sense to me. It was up to the champions and proponents of single payer to get their message out. If they failed at that, who's to blame? Oh, oh I got this. Is the answer, President Obama? I thought so.

And I have another question. Remember the "Summer of Hate"? Where were all these single payer advocates when "death panels" and "killing Grandma" was in the headlines? Not a peep from them. Why is that?

[denem]

50. Answer- No. Candidate Obama went no where near Single Payer.

n/t.

[Tarheel_Dem]

52. I didn't think so. How can he break a promise he never made?

Look, we all know that single payer would be the ultimate healthcare plan for a country this size. But, I'm dismayed at the posts I'm seeing that are calling for the ACA to be struck down. And replace it with what? Pipe dreams? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[fascisthunter]

7. I certainly will never give up... America will have no other option

as things get worse. The inevitable will come to fruition... you either pay to prevent the worse, or you pay ten times more for the consequences of doing nothing. Nothing anyone states will change that.

[Scuba]

13. So 8 or 10 represented the citizens, the rest represented the corporations.

[slipslidingaway]

14. That is what happens when the Dems and Obama silence any discussion of the issue ...

How do you win a fight if you silence the harshest critics of those who hold power....

Please do not tell me that you are fighting the entrenched interests when you invite them to the discussions and private meetings and exclude those who have been fighting the For Profit companies for decades.


President Obama calls on Karen Ignagni of AHIP to speak on HC reform.

Imagine if P. Obama had called upon Dr. Maria Angell to speak at the WH summit instead of Karen Ignagni, members of Congress might be pleading for a public option.

Dr. Marcia Angell not invited to attend and therefore not called upon to speak, Conyers asked that two single-payer advocates be invited to attend....Dr. Quentin Young and Dr. Marcia Angell - his request was denied.


Watch the first few minutes of this testimony from Dr. Angell who was NOT allowed to attend the WH summit.

Examining the Single Payer Health Care Option: Marcia Angell Testimony

"The reason our health system is in such trouble is that it is set up to generate profits, not to provide care..."

Originally posted here, remember this was the first meeting on HC reform and it was covered in the media, the WH set the agenda. Not the Republicans, not Lieberman etc.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8620142&mesg_id=8621243

[denem]

15. In other words give a dead parrot a hearing,

out of formal courtesy, and be surprised by silence. Dead. 50 votes short on cloture. If you DOUBLED support on the floor, single payer would still have been 40 votes short.

Sanders was in Senate at this time. Alternative history theorists were not.

[msongs]

16. look at how many years it took to get rid of slavery. One keeps coming back and coming back until

enough democrats demand it, after letting the public and corporations know why it is worth having.

plus you need a president who is for it and not spending his time appeasing the opposition.

[sudopod]

26. I really love how excited you are about it. nt

[slipslidingaway]

43. We need to silence any discussion of a not for profit system say the Dem ...

politicians. We know the Repubs will not be on board, but we need to be honest about who the gatekeepers are if there is any hope to rectify the HC system for all people.

Did you hear Conyers speak on the floor about how the members of Congress who supported a national not for profit system during the Clinton administration were invited to the WH and asked to abandon their support for SP and get behind the Clinton proposal? And then he said the same thing is happening again, except this time the issue of a not for profit HC system has just been ignored under the Obama administration! Sometimes it is just better to ignore the "problem" and not even acknowledge its existence, which is exactly what was done.

It does not matter that for decades over 50% of the population would favor such a system.

To hell with the people, we'll side with the lobbyists and squash any discussion, people will be too stupid to notice that it is being done. We'll dangle a new carrot and the people will follow along, this was not some new bright HC idea by Obama, it was presented to all candidates based on the Hacker proposal. No wonder Edwards claimed that someone else stole his HC plan LOL, he adopted it first after being presented with the idea.

Bottom line was that a national, not for profit idea could Not be allowed into the discussion ... and they all complied, except for Kucinich.

Did you ever hear of the power of marketing? If not just look how many people latched on to the unknown concept of a public option, whatever it was! It did not matter that only a few million people would be eligible for that option and millions would still not be covered.

People were in love ... the power of marketing, and ultimately of distraction.

So yes people were sold a dead parrot, aka the public option, you cannot dismiss the polls over the last couple of decades that show support for a national HC system. Then again, you're just playing into the hands of the for profit companies and politicians.

[mother earth]

23. Kick for this video, thank you for bringing it to this discussion, ssa! :)

It's always that damned profits that trump the value of life. Where's the humanity?

[slipslidingaway]

38. My pleasure, 50% of physicians also want a national HC system ...

but too many politicians, of all stripes, continue to protect the For Profit companies.

Imagine if she was allowed in the room and Obama called on her to speak at the WH HC summit instead of Karen Ignagni from AHIP?

Imagine if Obama's personal physician of over 20 years was not uninvited to the televised WH town hall meeting on HC at the last minute and allowed to ask a question?

Maybe those senators who "blocked" the (diminishing) public option might have come around.

[great white snark]

29. I knew there was a "blame Obama first" crowd.

I didn't realize the Democrats also failed to...what? Threaten physical harm? Mace every Republican? The votes were never there.

[slipslidingaway]

39. And nothing was ever done by the Dems to enhance support ...

in fact the Dems blocked discussion once again, as they did under Clinton, and distracted people with "the public option" while having no clue how many people would be eligible and how it it would work. It was a scam to pull people away from a national, not for profit HC system that would benefit our country. Look at the contributions to candidates from insurance and drug companies in 2008.

Did you watch the 2008 Democratic debates, this is Not just about Obama, not one candidate had a follow question on a not for profit system. No discussion allowed! There surely were many irrelevant follow up questions from the top three candidates about some trivial issue, who said what to you yesterday about ... nothing. Frankly it was embarrassing at times.

Then they all signed onto some watered down version of the Jacob Hacker public/private system of HC. Hacker envisioned rolling the public programs (Medicare/Medicaid etc) into the public option, although that was never mentioned by the top three. Clinton was at least smart enough to realize that you needed a mandate if you were going to do away with pre-existing conditions and remove the life time cap, I'll give her that. Then again the truth does not always pay off.

[mother earth]

57. Well said! It's not about blaming Obama or dead parrots, this fight has been going on for quite

some time, and thank you for mentioning Hillary - you took the words right out of my mouth.
The same interests that have been working against true reform have been winning the fight.

That's the real problem....let's get profit out of health care for once and for all!

[laundry_queen]

60. Agreed.

Profit has no business in health care. Making money off of people's illnesses and misfortunes is morally bankrupt.

[slipslidingaway]

62. Yes, we need to get the profits out of our HC system! n/t

[rudycantfail]

31. Great, great video.

I'm thankful that the truth is evident when I hear it.

[slipslidingaway]

40. Problem is not many hear it, the media and many politicians on both sides ...

are always there to block discussion.

[Egalitarian Thug]

53. The real nuclear threat. They're still afraid of it, but know the Democrats won't use it.

Take a page from the republican playbook, "we are so committed we will burn the whole house down before we let you own it", and that's what they fear. This party will always lose in the end because they are afraid to take a stand. the other side are certainly wrong and completely crazy, but they will not hesitate to throw themselves into the fire for their beliefs.

As with any war, in the end it comes down to will. The red team has it, the blue team doesn't.

[slipslidingaway]

63. A not for profit system is the real threat ...

and although the Repubs are wrong, they do exhibit the will to fight.

[Egalitarian Thug]

74. Yes, it is the only threat left in America to the health care giants.

They all know exactly what they are doing and that they are the problem in the American "health care system". That is specifically why alternatives are not allowed into the debate.

If a leader refuses to fight, even for the very lives of those they claim to lead, is that any kind of a leader at all?

[slipslidingaway]

75. Exactly and a shame politicians help them year after year ...

and decade after decade.

No, then again some people speak of incremental changes ... because there was no other course.

[Egalitarian Thug]

77. Kind of misses the point doesn't it?

If you have the better idea, but little or no support for it, how does abandoning the idea ever make it happen?

me too.

[slipslidingaway]

80. Yes, it will never happen, even if the majority wants it ...

if the idea is never discussed then many people will just be content with whatever the new flavor of HC is this time around.

"...how does abandoning the idea ever make it happen?"

It never does!

Welcome to DU

[FiveGoodMen]

20. 'Single Payer or nothing' equals nothing. This is a dead parrot

And it always will be if we all accept what you said.

[mother earth]

22. And clearly we don't, not to mention those in the medical community who are for single payer, and on

& on. There was zero understanding of health care reform at any level, we are so indoctrinated to the third party insurers
way...the mandate is what people find objectionable due to high costs of insurance. I know people who have insurance, who never could get it before...they aren't Dems & they see the good in medical care availablity to all. I know people who have pre-existing conditions that suddenly now are covered...it goes on and on and people from all parties are looking at things differently. All without any marketing or understanding of what single payer would mean.

The tide is turning, despite the best efforts to keep We the people out of decision making. Imagine if we could match the millions spent by the insurers?

Knowledge is our best tool, correcting and addressing the propaganda efforts would have been hugely instrumental, but nothing was ever on the table. The best course was struck down without every being laid out.

[slipslidingaway]

46. Tide is turning ...

my daughter just started her residency this year and it has been a slow evolution over the past few years. She loves working at the VA because there is time to spend with a patient and not much talk of over testing for every little thing. You get a better picture of the whole patient, not something you can do on insurance clock. She does not want to earns millions, if that was the motivating factor then she would have stayed with a business major and then on to a job in the fnancial field.

Yes, the tide is turning.

[mother earth]

56. It certainly is, and that spirit is exactly what is needed, the medical profession returning to the

art of healing, not the art of making money as third parties would have it be.

Kudos and much success wished for your daughter, ssa.

[slipslidingaway]

64. Most of these kids go into the profession for the right reasons ...

if they were just interested in making money they would be looking for a job on Wall St.
It was so refreshing to hear the speeches about working towards a more equitable for all.

Thanks

[Blue_Tires]

27. Senate = Useless

[Better Believe It]

32. So does that mean all other Democratic Senators have been bought and paid for by Wall Street?

Sounds like the Democratic Party is the "dead parrot" according to Senator Sanders.

[Cleita]

33. Amazing isn't it considering that 70% + of the population want it.

It goes to show you that most of our reps and Senators do not work for us once they win their elections and get sworn into office. It's time to fire them.

[riderinthestorm]

42. 1000000 nt

[joeybee12]

35. How many did the public option have Bernie?

Oh yeah, over 50...could have passed it if they wanted to.

[denem]

49. No that's 60.

You forgot (how could you) Lieberman. 59 maximum, OK,

[joeybee12]

76. Didn't need 60...another myth...

Because they passed the so-called ADA with a simple majority.

[mother earth]

37. For what it's worth even Chuck Todd is thinking they won't overturn it, and says the same

thing about it being an opening for single payer, if it happens. If they strike down Obamacare they are opening the door to much, much more...therein lies the reason why it won't be OT'ed. But if it is, it does not spell victory for the GOP.

This war on women, coupled with messing with the new found health care for all those who are newcomers to it, thanks to present day HCR, spells trouble for the GOP if they win this battle. Their victory will be short lived, IMHO. I could be wrong, but I just may be right.

(Edited to add, I'm no big fan of Todd's, and I do believe he favors the right.)

[LiberalFighter]

45. When there are blue dogs like Senator Evan Bayh

and his wife on the board of major health related companies it becomes difficult to get the best plan. They need to be all outed.

[chnoutte]

54. If we want Single Payer

it will take the voting out of every single Blue Dog, DLCer, Conservadem, ThirdWayer no matter how long they have been in office or what office they hold and their Republican Pals.

The Democratic Party will never be able to achieve single payer until the over whelming majority of the party is liberal and or progressive.

Single Payer will NEVER happen as long as Blue Dogs, Conservadems, ThirdWayers, DLCer’s are elected into office as Democrats.

This is just the reality of the situation.

[mother earth]

72. Look for that to change soon...I suspect a lot of encumbents will be outed & I wouldn't at all be

surprised by anything at this point, including a sudden rise in Occupy. I think the people that are supposed to be represented understand we are NOT at all...this cannot go on indefinitely.

[mother earth]

73. How about getting ALEC out of our legislature? Why don't you devote your efforts to something more

substantial instead of claiming dead parrots for wanting the better way, the people's way?

[dkf]

78. Then don't call it single payer. Call it Open enrollment for Medicare.

Or Relaxing the criterial for Medicare.

It's all in the framing.

Funny thing is if the Republicans wanted to see this they would have had a much better PR campaign.

Their problem is they try to couch hard to sell items with good wrapping. We take options that probably would have a positive response and explain it so badly we land up making it unpopular.

[maximusveritas]

79. The AARP, AMA, and many other important backers of the Affordable Care Act also

oppose single payer. I support single payer, but I'm not delusional enough to think it had any chance of going through. Maybe in a few decades.