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Aerows

(39,961 posts)
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 03:33 PM Apr 2014

For those that call Edward Snowden a Traitor

He would have been called one no matter what administration he revealed these violations against the Constitution.

You are correct. It would just depend on what party would be calling him "traitor." That, of course, depends under which administration he revealed the violations of the Constitution. You know it, I know it, everyone with two brain cells to rub together know it.

DU2 prior to January 20, 2009 was especially concerned about the surveillance state (I refuse to call it the security state because it offers no security and certainly fails to protect us against domestic terrorists and mass murderers). The archives are there for all to see.

Massive, invasive state surveillance has *NEVER* in the course of history *EVER* benefited the constituents and citizens of such a state of surveillance.

Explain it as an explosion of technological ability, rehash it as protection for the citizens, and you know what you get? The justifications made by every single government in history that did it. If you want to know where it leads, open a damn history book, and see how *they* were also threatened by a populace that knew more than they "should".

People scream technology like this is the first time humankind has ever made an advancement in communications. NO.

Again, open a history book. Go as far back as you like, then ask yourself "are these the same excuses, are these the same motives, and how did that turn out for the people?"

I dare you.

192 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
For those that call Edward Snowden a Traitor (Original Post) Aerows Apr 2014 OP
I called Lt. Watada a Blue Falcon under Bush. MohRokTah Apr 2014 #1
Was there a point you were trying to make? sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #118
Read the last sentence of my response again. eom MohRokTah Apr 2014 #119
I read it. I saw you state your OPINION. Not a surprising opinion btw, which has zero sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #121
Snowden is not a whistleblower. MohRokTah Apr 2014 #126
Unfortunately for your assessment of the situation, a majority of the American people say he IS a sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #127
I seriously doubt that. MohRokTah Apr 2014 #129
The Constitution which is STILL the law of this land, despite your distaste for it, as you sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #132
I didn't read beyond this blatantly false statement. MohRokTah Apr 2014 #133
Reading is essential. The Constitution also says that no one will be judged guilty sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #137
Snowden has not been judged guilty by the federal government MohRokTah Apr 2014 #138
Its obvious his mind is closed... Rockyj Apr 2014 #150
'We need to get rid of the Patriot Act'! Absolutely, I thought that was what we were doing sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #180
It is the Ouroboros Aerows Apr 2014 #183
As always, Sabrina Aerows Apr 2014 #164
Thank you Aerows, coming from you that means a lot. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #178
Keep the faith, my friend Aerows Apr 2014 #181
I will, you too! n/t sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #190
I do not see anything intelligent about collecting Rockyj Apr 2014 #145
You failed to read the post. eom MohRokTah Apr 2014 #147
No, that person read the post Aerows Apr 2014 #155
being baited and trolled is FUN! eom MohRokTah Apr 2014 #156
Apparently since you like doing it. n/t Aerows Apr 2014 #158
being falsely accused is FUN! eom MohRokTah Apr 2014 #159
eom went out with plonk n/t Aerows Apr 2014 #161
Fuck Comrade Eddy...nt SidDithers Apr 2014 #2
Oh dear. Again with the "comrade" crap elias49 Apr 2014 #10
I don't think I've ever called him Comrade, until that dumbass thread yesterday... SidDithers Apr 2014 #11
It was dumb to you zeemike Apr 2014 #25
Comrade Snowden support is,,, Cryptoad Apr 2014 #80
Dream On billhicks76 Apr 2014 #81
"dropping like a rock!" zeemike Apr 2014 #82
'A majority of Americans view Snowden as a Whistle Blower' sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #131
By definition of Whistle Blower Cryptoad Apr 2014 #140
Not my proclamation, it is the proclamation of a Majority of the American People. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #142
No, it was just dumb. Bobbie Jo Apr 2014 #124
That would help Snowden's reputation enormously. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #122
vaht? vasyou shaying shumthing, about comrades.. to meeee? dionysus Apr 2014 #143
Repeating the same ad hominem attack endlessly, but for what purpose? nm rhett o rick Apr 2014 #19
The hominem attacks on both sides of this one. How many of the Snowden folliwers Thinkingabout Apr 2014 #46
Ah yes the "well they did it so we can do it." argument. If you hate Snowden, I get it. rhett o rick Apr 2014 #93
What is wrong with posting the facts, I read a lot about Clapper lying Thinkingabout Apr 2014 #98
Serious violations of the US Constitution have been exposed. Who is responsible for sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #128
You said it, I don't care about the messenger, as in Snowden. When he goes on trial bringing in the Thinkingabout Apr 2014 #134
Still nothing about the actual criminals. About the crimes committed by Bush's NSA sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #135
Our prisons are full of criminals, that is not what is in question here, if you want to say it is Thinkingabout Apr 2014 #136
Snowden is a Whistle Blower who has exposed serious violations of the Constitutional Rights of the sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #139
Are you only listening to a portion of the people who post on this site to Thinkingabout Apr 2014 #152
The US Government has been conducting a massive program spying on the American people. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #125
Lol! zappaman Apr 2014 #83
If you are googling my name, the LOL is on you. nm rhett o rick Apr 2014 #95
If it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else probably. Hissyspit Apr 2014 #33
Another Disinfo Artist billhicks76 Apr 2014 #37
Welcome to DU... SidDithers Apr 2014 #38
One has to wonder why you have such an emotional investment in this. hootinholler Apr 2014 #68
yeah, considering.....nt grasswire Apr 2014 #188
You are becoming a parody on this topic! nt Logical Apr 2014 #115
SDS! n/t sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #120
HAIL HYDRA! whatchamacallit Apr 2014 #148
they aren't mutually exclusive arely staircase Apr 2014 #3
It isn't the security state Aerows Apr 2014 #4
omfg nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #5
Yep. Aerows Apr 2014 #7
what does the S in NSA stand for? arely staircase Apr 2014 #8
It certainly isn't security Aerows Apr 2014 #12
good googly moogly nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #15
Exactly Aerows Apr 2014 #21
DU? nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #22
I really can't interpret this Aerows Apr 2014 #99
LOL Cali_Democrat Apr 2014 #13
you ALL are wasting your time "prosecuting" Snowden here grasswire Apr 2014 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author Cali_Democrat Apr 2014 #48
+1...nt SidDithers Apr 2014 #61
Such Paulie Apr 2014 #89
More like sucks Aerows Apr 2014 #163
I think most DU'ers want the surveillance state reined in with more oversight etc. KittyWampus Apr 2014 #6
I don't think we need to revamp our concept of privacy Aerows Apr 2014 #9
We don't need to "revamp" anything. bvar22 Apr 2014 #72
And there is that Aerows Apr 2014 #90
+1000 Mojorabbit Apr 2014 #107
X 1000 Aerows Apr 2014 #110
And yet you totally discount the corporate infringement on our privacy which I mentioned. KittyWampus Apr 2014 #114
Corporations can only hire and fire us Aerows Apr 2014 #157
And one of the nuances is Snowden's . . . brush Apr 2014 #35
Cue the feigned outrage Aerows Apr 2014 #42
Yeah but now our enemies have details on how our international covert operations were run. brush Apr 2014 #55
Here is a rock Aerows Apr 2014 #57
You want proof about Snowden coughing up interational covert ops details? brush Apr 2014 #58
He gave too many covert leaks when Aerows Apr 2014 #66
Its not about peeing creeksneakers2 Apr 2014 #69
Every single post anti-Snowden Aerows Apr 2014 #71
The NSA spies on our enemies creeksneakers2 Apr 2014 #79
You said it correctly Aerows Apr 2014 #100
YAY!!! vlakitti Apr 2014 #70
And one more thing if you wanna go there. . . brush Apr 2014 #88
Depth and Breadth of the information gathering Aerows Apr 2014 #101
What are you talking about? brush Apr 2014 #117
that's called cognitive dissonance, not nuance. nashville_brook Apr 2014 #14
right because if I am glad he started a conversation on NSA phone data collection arely staircase Apr 2014 #16
wow, you apparently have deep surveillance state info that no one else has nashville_brook Apr 2014 #24
no. I just keep up with current events nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #32
If you kept up with current events Aerows Apr 2014 #45
Well, if you were arguing honestly Aerows Apr 2014 #28
uh he committed the crime in China by doing an interview with a paper there arely staircase Apr 2014 #34
Proof n/t Aerows Apr 2014 #40
here I put it in an OP so I don't have to keep doing people's homework for them arely staircase Apr 2014 #47
"Here is some more Aerows Apr 2014 #63
uh huh arely staircase Apr 2014 #64
Hey, let's play faulty sources Aerows Apr 2014 #166
so the interview is fake? nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #167
RT? n/t Aerows Apr 2014 #168
what about it? nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #169
OK. Aerows Apr 2014 #171
The proof is right here on DU. See link ... brush Apr 2014 #97
yes, proof please? grasswire Apr 2014 #50
he gave an interview to the newspaper. they make that up? all those quotes are false? arely staircase Apr 2014 #53
"I pulled it out of my butt Aerows Apr 2014 #54
Yes some are, but not those that disparage Snowden obsessively. Originally they denied there was rhett o rick Apr 2014 #23
fuck snowden arely staircase Apr 2014 #27
Snowden Is A Hero billhicks76 Apr 2014 #39
and yet here you are arely staircase Apr 2014 #49
I think he is the one Aerows Apr 2014 #77
Sounds like something someone in Jr. High might say. nm rhett o rick Apr 2014 #94
It's disingenuous. Aerows Apr 2014 #31
They choose to side with the authoritarian power. It makes them feel safe. nm rhett o rick Apr 2014 #96
It is a travesty Aerows Apr 2014 #103
I am afraid that many Americans have been raised to blindly follow authority. nm rhett o rick Apr 2014 #105
That bothers me Aerows Apr 2014 #112
Our children see a lot of authoritarianism as they grow. Parents, teachers, rhett o rick Apr 2014 #113
One of democracy's greatest traitor was Ichingcarpenter Apr 2014 #17
and by "snowden's not socrates" you mean he is 'totally socrates' arely staircase Apr 2014 #20
You really aren't good at things Ichingcarpenter Apr 2014 #43
Getting emotional Aerows Apr 2014 #51
you said he isn't then wrote a long post implying they were similar nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #52
+1 zeemike Apr 2014 #36
He has not been charged with treason treestar Apr 2014 #18
A very good topic and points. Though I wish Snowden (and wikileaks) would release everything. Sunlei Apr 2014 #26
All of the files obtained by Snowden have been handed over to Greenwald, Poitras et al. Maedhros Apr 2014 #56
you trust all those people with all those files? How do you know he didn't share with others? Sunlei Apr 2014 #60
SharePoint files Aerows Apr 2014 #62
I trust journalists more than I trust the Government when it comes to information regarding Maedhros Apr 2014 #92
Not just, Greenwald and Poitras. I don't trust Snowden on who he shared files with &who else got him Sunlei Apr 2014 #106
I trust those that make Aerows Apr 2014 #108
Of course you don't. Maedhros Apr 2014 #111
The only "evidence" they have Aerows Apr 2014 #170
It's the essence of propaganda. Maedhros Apr 2014 #173
Exactly Aerows Apr 2014 #174
I have a friend who describes himself as politically aware and an extreme Liberal - Maedhros Apr 2014 #175
That observation Aerows Apr 2014 #176
Oh, the NSA is wonderful. I hope they have a Happy Easter and find all of their hidden eggs. Lint Head Apr 2014 #29
Agreed. MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #30
If they aren't collecting said surveillance information Aerows Apr 2014 #41
It is my belief that the NSA is collecting all this information to use in future prosecutions Maedhros Apr 2014 #59
There are building old fashion Hoover files on anyone who is anyone, or might be someone GoneFishin Apr 2014 #85
U.S.: Russia Withheld Intel on Boston Bomb Suspect sheshe2 Apr 2014 #151
Are you claiming that Russia didn't warn the US well before the bombings? nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #177
Did you read it? Did you? sheshe2 Apr 2014 #179
So they were told of the danger, but not in the right words. MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #182
You know what Manny... sheshe2 Apr 2014 #184
As I said, law enforcement might have done the right thing wrt Tsarnaev MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #185
The TRAITORS are the ones he exposed. DeSwiss Apr 2014 #65
It frightens me Aerows Apr 2014 #67
This is to be expected...... DeSwiss Apr 2014 #75
Actually, things have changed - A LOT! jazzimov Apr 2014 #73
"Traitor" isn't the right term. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #74
Don't worry, Aerows. When the next Rethug is elected president LittleBlue Apr 2014 #76
I tend to believe Aerows Apr 2014 #78
I Used To Fear Conservative Republicans... Now I Have To Worry About Conservative Democrats Too... WillyT Apr 2014 #84
Conservative Democrats are more troubling. At least when a Republican is trying to undermine GoneFishin Apr 2014 #86
Exactly... ConReps Will Attack You From The Front... ConDems Will Stab You In The Back... WillyT Apr 2014 #87
I fear people who label without having a clue Skidmore Apr 2014 #116
So what's the excuse for pulling the cover on legit foreign intelligence operations? Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #91
What is your excuse Aerows Apr 2014 #102
I've long since denounced those Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #123
Wait ... Aerows Apr 2014 #144
Team sports. The same people who boycotted the Dixie Chicks say worse about Obama. cui bono Apr 2014 #104
Agreed. Aerows Apr 2014 #109
+1 Zorra Apr 2014 #130
Exists to make the world safer Aerows Apr 2014 #165
Snowden is not a traitor per US law, Progressive dog Apr 2014 #141
And you can't stand the fact Aerows Apr 2014 #154
Why do you suppose Snowden fans continue to look for reasons Progressive dog Apr 2014 #189
You know why Aerows Apr 2014 #191
Snowden is an accused criminal no matter who is in the White House and Progressive dog Apr 2014 #192
Kick Otelo Apr 2014 #146
Thank you! Aerows Apr 2014 #172
Edward Snowden is a trader.... penultimate Apr 2014 #149
i just don't understand the hate against Edward Snowden Obnoxious_One Apr 2014 #153
Welcome to DU Aerows Apr 2014 #160
I want to reiterate something Aerows Apr 2014 #162
NSA and corrupt government, courts are the "traitors" ... Mondavi Apr 2014 #186
Americans seem to be ignorant of The Stasi State. Don't know why, it was drilled in our heads in 2banon Apr 2014 #187
 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
1. I called Lt. Watada a Blue Falcon under Bush.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 03:41 PM
Apr 2014

Regardless of my thoughts on the Iraq War, Watada was a blue falcon. He bugged out and screwed his buddies who did their duty.

Regardless of how the court martial proceedings went and the subsequent choice not to retry, I' for one, could never trust such a man.

Watada is as much of a Blue Falcon as Lakin. It doesn't matter who is president when it comes to the military and intelligence services.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
121. I read it. I saw you state your OPINION. Not a surprising opinion btw, which has zero
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:06 AM
Apr 2014

to do with Whistle Blowers who are protected by law in this democracy.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
126. Snowden is not a whistleblower.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:21 AM
Apr 2014

He gave that moniker up when he crossed the line from revealing the illegal domestic spying (whistleblowing) to revealing operational specifics of international intelligence gathering activities (espionage).

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
127. Unfortunately for your assessment of the situation, a majority of the American people say he IS a
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:33 AM
Apr 2014

Whistle Blower.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
132. The Constitution which is STILL the law of this land, despite your distaste for it, as you
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:09 PM
Apr 2014

have made clear, says that those who violate the people's rights under what this country has accepted as the law of the land, are traitors.

Which is why all elected officials and military personnel take an oath to 'defend and protect THE CONSTITUTION from all enemies, both foreign and domestic'. They are asked to protect a particular political party or politician or General or anything else, they are sworn to protect the Constitution. If you don't like that, then start working to change it by electing Right Wingers who made their distaste for it, 'just a quaint document' very clear during the Bush years. But until that happens, like it or not, the Constitution is the law of the land and those who violate it are criminals.

Snowden, among others, soldiers who refused to take illegal orders eg, take their oaths very seriously.

You have been wrong about a few things here, eg, the ages of the FFs many of whom were extremely young, information I provided for you and am more than happy to provide again, NOT 'old men' by any stretch of the imagination so I take what you say with a grain of salt until I see something to back it up from now on.

Such as 'I doubt' that a majority of the American people view Snowden as a Whistle Blower. Facts are stubborn things, someone once said. And here are some more facts for you re Snowden, the American People, and Whistle Blowing:

On the contrary, polls consistently show the American People view Snowden as a Whistle Blower:

http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm

"Do you regard Edward Snowden -- the national security consultant who released information to the media about the phone scanning program -- as more of a traitor, or more of a whistle-blower?"


Traitor! Whistle-blower! Unsure! No answer!
% % %

1/4-7/14

34. 57. 9

7/28-31/13


34. 55. 11

6/28 - 7/8/13

34. 55. 11


An increase of 2% since last July in favor of Snowden as Whistle Blower.

The American people take their Constitutional Rights way more seriously than some people thought.

That one third is the same % of mostly right wingers who support the Surveillance that you would expect.

Edward Snowden Whistle Blower. The American people have spoken.
 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
133. I didn't read beyond this blatantly false statement.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:31 PM
Apr 2014

"The Constitution which is STILL the law of this land, despite your distaste for it, as youhave made clear, says that those who violate the people's rights under what this country has accepted as the law of the land, are traitors."

The constitution says no such thing.

Article III, Section 3 first clause:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

That describes Snowden, not anybody in the NSA. Member of the NSA have violated the 4th amendment, but none have committed the crime of treason, unlike Snowden.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
137. Reading is essential. The Constitution also says that no one will be judged guilty
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 02:10 PM
Apr 2014

of a crime without due process.

Snowden is a Whistle Blower, protected by law in this country. He has exposed serious wrong doing against the American people committed by those placed in some of the highest positions of trust. That trust has been shattered, time and time again, as the polls which you claim not to have read, demonstrate.

I am glad to see you at least refer to that 'worthless' document you were so upset with me for even mentioning, written by a 'bunch of old white slave owners' according to you.

Of course that was a totally incorrect statement from you as I proved.

The American people have spoken about all of this and view Snowden as a Whistle Blower NOT a traitor, which they were asked specifically.

So as part of the one third minority your opinion is not relevant frankly.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
138. Snowden has not been judged guilty by the federal government
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 02:11 PM
Apr 2014

He's the one that refuses to return to stand trial.

And I am free to judge him at any time. I am not the government.

He's guilty. End of discussion from my viewpoint.

Rockyj

(538 posts)
150. Its obvious his mind is closed...
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 04:57 PM
Apr 2014

Treason? Snowden? What a joke.
Clapper needs to be charged for lying under oath.
Bush,Cheney, Rice & Powell all should be charged with MURDER for having our young men and women killed in a illegal war.

We need to get rid of the Patriotic Act!

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
180. 'We need to get rid of the Patriot Act'! Absolutely, I thought that was what we were doing
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 12:30 AM
Apr 2014

when we worked so hard to kick out Republicans in 2008.

As for the poster, I know. Fortunately it appears the American people are waking up and overwhelming believe that Snowden is a Whistle Blower, the numbers only increasing despite all the propaganda generated against him.

Thank for your comment.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
183. It is the Ouroboros
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 12:41 AM
Apr 2014

"If a Democrat is in office, we must support all policies, even if they are virulent to the Democratic Party platform."

If a Republican is in office, we hate the things they do, but hey, things will get better if we elect more Democrats!"

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
164. As always, Sabrina
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 09:49 PM
Apr 2014

You are a light amongst those who would prefer to remain in darkness. You and a handful of others are like me - we do not care who is in office, we desire justice, truth and transparency.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
178. Thank you Aerows, coming from you that means a lot.
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 12:25 AM
Apr 2014

I don't care who is in office, the truth is truth and both sides try hard to suppress it when their team is IN office, they do the opposite when their team is OUT of office. But I was naive, I thought we were part of the party that would remain consistent about the issues. I was wrong.

I am glad we've had this wake up call, I might have remained a blind partisan too as I probably was, had we not seen all this unfold. It was a shock at first, now I take comfort in knowing that we are going through a very difficult historic period and that we are on the right side. As has often happened before, history will record that.

So glad you are here, real progressives are leaving DU by the day and I wish they would not, but I can't say I blame them. Who needs to come here to see all these right wing talking points, when the point in coming here was to avoid them?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
181. Keep the faith, my friend
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 12:32 AM
Apr 2014

You and some other folks here are real treasures. Don't let the ones that would slander, or harness you to bad gossip get to you.

Rockyj

(538 posts)
145. I do not see anything intelligent about collecting
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 03:23 PM
Apr 2014

mass data on US citizens without a warrant or probable cause. Its not sound and doesn't make sense to why they would need all this information. The only reason a government would do this is Orwellian, so why are we allowing our government to continue to do this?
I do not understand why so many progressives have fallen for the character assassination of Edward Snowden; from the get go, including President Obama, they started calling him traitor and setting this mind set that too many democrats and progressives have adopted.
I don't get it.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
11. I don't think I've ever called him Comrade, until that dumbass thread yesterday...
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:08 PM
Apr 2014

Now, though, I might just use it all the time.

Sid

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
25. It was dumb to you
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:55 PM
Apr 2014

Because it did not fit your preconceived notions...so wear it as a stinky badge of honor then.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
80. Comrade Snowden support is,,,
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 07:31 PM
Apr 2014

dropping like a rock! Still nothing he said has been proved to be illegal in a high court!

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
82. "dropping like a rock!"
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 08:59 PM
Apr 2014

Well if you say so then it must be true...just keep saying it and it will be true...that is how the principle of propaganda works...the right wingers know and love that principle.

Moral certainty can deafen people to any truth other than their own.

Geraldine Brooks

In our time political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible.

George Orwell

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
131. 'A majority of Americans view Snowden as a Whistle Blower'
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:57 AM
Apr 2014

Polls taken starting last year, despite the propaganda against him, consistently show the American people view him as a Whistle Blower. In fact the last poll showed on increase in support for that position:

http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm

"Do you regard Edward Snowden -- the national security consultant who released information to the media about the phone scanning program -- as more of a traitor, or more of a whistle-blower?"


Traitor! Whistle-blower! Unsure! No answer!
% % %

1/4-7/14

34. 57. 9

7/28-31/13


34. 55. 11

6/28 - 7/8/13

34. 55. 11


An increase of 2% since last July in favor of Snowden as Whistle Blower.

The American people take their Constitutional Rights way more seriously than some people thought.

That one third is the same % of mostly right wingers who support the Surveillance that you would expect.

Edward Snowden Whistle Blower. The American people have spoken.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
140. By definition of Whistle Blower
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 02:33 PM
Apr 2014

you can not be one unless you have exposed something illegal.....

as I said early ,,, the only warrants issued for anything illegal are the warrants for Comrade Snowden arrest. and its been over a year now.......

As for Constitutional rights, it seems you don't understand the 9th amend in regards to how is protects my rights from you yours.......

Proclaim it all you want but he is a Traitor.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
142. Not my proclamation, it is the proclamation of a Majority of the American People.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 02:44 PM
Apr 2014

Snowden is a Whistle Blower, period, and no amount of denial is going to change that. Thankfully his exposures of the crimes of those violating our Constitutional Rights, have brought about some efforts to reform these Bush policies, not nearly enough yet, but we are making progress.

He is not of course the first Whistle Blower to expose these crimes against the people, just the latest one and if these violations continue, there will be more Snowdens, and Binneys and Drakes. And as Whistle Blowers they are entitled to protections under the law. So far those laws too have not been observed. But things are changing for the better, thanks to the brave men and women who are willing to risk everything on behalf of their country.

The best way not to have any more Snowdens, is for our Government agencies and officials to make sure they or those they oversee, end their illegal activities.

If you violate the Constitution you naturally are going to be exposed and eventually, hopefully brought to justice, starting with the top perps themselves who instituted these practices, Cheney/Bush et al and work down from there.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
46. The hominem attacks on both sides of this one. How many of the Snowden folliwers
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:25 PM
Apr 2014

Thinks he could return to the US and not face justice for his crimes? Well, understand why many, many do not stand behind Snowden and his choices, he made bad decisions but it does not change the facts of his crimes. Leave the zero on the curb where he kicked himself.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
93. Ah yes the "well they did it so we can do it." argument. If you hate Snowden, I get it.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 11:20 PM
Apr 2014

He upset the naive security comfort that the authoritarian state gave you. Therefore, he must be punished along with all that might dare expose truth to power. But post after post of hatred isnt what I would hope for on a politically liberal message board.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
98. What is wrong with posting the facts, I read a lot about Clapper lying
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 11:29 PM
Apr 2014

But when it comes to Snowden many do not want the truth, it has nothing to do with a liberal board. When you don't get the response which make you feel good then the authoritarian state comes out. Maybe it is the dislike of Snowden's deeds which I dislike. Bring him back to face justice, if the evidence is available and presented we will see the results but in my book he doesn't get clemency.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
128. Serious violations of the US Constitution have been exposed. Who is responsible for
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:39 AM
Apr 2014

those crimes against the people? 'Bring back Snowden to face justice'. Got anything to say about bringing the actual Perps to justice?

Personally I don't give a flying fuck about the messengers, and it's stunning to me to see people on THIS forum totally ignore what Ron Wyden, among others, have been desperately trying to warn the American about for years now.

Snowden's Whistle Blowing is only the latest in a growing line of Whistle Blowers trying to warn us about the destruction of our rights and has helped elected officials like Ron Wyden and Udall eg, to finally get this serious issue into the public debate.

And all you seem to be concerned about is the messenger. That seems very odd to this Democrat considering how outraged democrats were throughout the Bush years over THIS VERY ISSUE.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
134. You said it, I don't care about the messenger, as in Snowden. When he goes on trial bringing in the
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:42 PM
Apr 2014

type of information you are posting is never going to change the evidence which has been collected on Snowden, he will never return to the US. He is either Putin's patsy now or he is just dumb when it comes to Russian techniques. It sounds like he is Putin's patsy, a spy who came in from the cold.

In particular, what has Snowden exposed which is serious violations of the U S Constitution?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
135. Still nothing about the actual criminals. About the crimes committed by Bush's NSA
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 01:01 PM
Apr 2014

which is still the same as it was when we THREW THEM OUT in 2008, still filled with Bush's cronies and violators of the Constitution against the American people.

Still obsessed with the messenger, still trying to distract from the Massive Surveillance of the American people that should, and in fact, HAS shocked the American people as polls are showing consistently since the revelations began.

The very fact that you have to ASK, here on DU, what violations have been exposed tells me you have been focused ONLY on the messenger and have not even bothered to find out what was exposed.

That is not my problem. You can throw away your own rights if you like, but you don't get to throw away the rights of the American people and polls show they don't intend to allow that.

Snowden, like Ellsberg and all other Whistle Blowers will be fine. It takes time when there is no will in Congress to go after the perps, but it will happen and when it does Snowden, Drake, Binney, Tice and all those Whistle Blowers to come, will be viewed in the same way Ellsberg is.

It must be awful to find yourself on the wrong side of history, as all those who were obsessed with Ellsberg now find THEMSELVES. Not even footnotes in history. While he will forever be viewed as a hero.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
136. Our prisons are full of criminals, that is not what is in question here, if you want to say it is
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 01:47 PM
Apr 2014

okay Snowden is a criminal and there are others who are also criminals, then so be it. This does not excuse the espionage and theft Snowden has been charged with.

I still would like to know exactly what is the violation of the U S Constitution. I am on the side of the Constitution and the laws of the US. I'll stay where I am.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
139. Snowden is a Whistle Blower who has exposed serious violations of the Constitutional Rights of the
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 02:14 PM
Apr 2014

American people. Those on the side of the Constitution and the laws of the US support Snowden as a Whistle Blower consistently in poll after poll since the revelations of those violations.

We can't both be on the side of the Constitution if one of us doesn't acknowledge that Snowden is a Whistle Blower and continues to insist that blowing the whistle on wrong doing is a crime.

It is not.

Whistle Blowers are an essential part of any Democracy.

Snowden is a Whistle Blower in the views of an overwhelming majority of the American people.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
152. Are you only listening to a portion of the people who post on this site to
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 06:45 PM
Apr 2014

Determine the majority of the American people? Your poll is not very scientific.

I am still waiting on an answer about what part of the US Constitution has been violated. If Snowden was working for a different department in the government he may have been classified as a Whistleblower but I am sure by now you have read the Whistleblower Act and you know intelligence departments are EXCLUDED from the Whistleblower Act so he does not have protection. I am stating Snowden was working in the intelligence department and therefore he does nit have this protection. Laws, rules, articles sections of written laws which have stood the test of time does not have exceptions written to exclude Snowden or anyone else to pick and choose what parts we like or don't like. If we allow these rules, articles, etc to be ignored then there will not be any protections ever and we could become like Russia or other countries with dictatorships. You want your freedom of speech, etc you have to follow the other parts as well.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
125. The US Government has been conducting a massive program spying on the American people.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:12 AM
Apr 2014

That is a treasonous violation of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution. They have been doing it FOR PROFIT for Private Security Contractors, among other things, cynically using 9/11 to extract billions of dollars of our money, most of them Bush pals.

The President's panel to look into those programs found that they did NOTHING to keep the American people safe.

Thank you to all the Whistle Blowers, including Snowden, and to Sen. Ron Wyden who have been trying to warn the American people since Bush first secretly instituted these criminal activities which are a despicable violation of the American people's rights.

zappaman

(20,605 posts)
83. Lol!
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:02 PM
Apr 2014

Says the poster who calls those that disagree with him "authoritarians" over and over and over...
Googling your name and "authoritarian" is worth doing for the laugh!

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
33. If it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else probably.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:03 PM
Apr 2014

Having shit-fits about Snowden are ultimately beside the point.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
3. they aren't mutually exclusive
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 03:44 PM
Apr 2014

Last edited Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:35 PM - Edit history (1)

thinking snowden is a traitor and wanting the security state brought under control. some people are capable of nuance.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
12. It certainly isn't security
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:09 PM
Apr 2014

because they have prevented exactly no instances of mass murder or domestic terrorism, even when alerted that such dangers might be in progress. I'm not sure what world you live in where the brave agents of the NSA, FBI and CIA actually heed actionable intelligence, but they were warned over several instances and surprisingly, the only ones that benefited were their confederates in contract military organizations.

The Underwear Bomber - warned by everyone including the "bomber's" father himself, oh look, Chertoff has an excuse for Rapiscan machines to be deployed.

The Boston Marathon Bomber - actionable intelligence provided THREE times, everyone looked away.

If you call that security and not just surveillance for the sake of surveillance ... what on earth do you consider "inappropriate surveillance"? I mean, listening in on calls those of our Armed Forces in foreign countries made to their partners and spouses as they did the only thing available to them to have intimacy is sure to turn up a treasure trove of actionable intelligence!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
99. I really can't interpret this
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:01 AM
Apr 2014

I'm not certain if it is "are you really a person on DU" which I am, or some other code that I am not initiated in.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
44. you ALL are wasting your time "prosecuting" Snowden here
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:25 PM
Apr 2014

No minds are being changed.

The bell has been rung, and it cannot be un-rung. The national and global conversation on the surveillance state has been started. Ergo, Snowden has accomplished his goal. It cannot be unstarted.

Hammering him is a waste of time and only adds to his creds as a man of importance.

Response to grasswire (Reply #44)

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
163. More like sucks
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 09:34 PM
Apr 2014

but I will never call it security, because it has only surveillance in mind.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
6. I think most DU'ers want the surveillance state reined in with more oversight etc.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 03:59 PM
Apr 2014

I posted a poll quite some time ago and almost everyone said they wanted it curtailed and controlled.

But we aren't going to get rid of espionage when it comes to non-citizens.

And then there's the fact that corporations have almost as much access to American citizens' information as the NSA is claimed to have.

On some level, I wonder if humanity is going to have to revamp it's concept of privacy.

Which is ironic… as Americans live in super huge McMansions with every one having their own bedroom AND bathroom… arguably way more physical privacy we have almost none electronically.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
9. I don't think we need to revamp our concept of privacy
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:03 PM
Apr 2014

so much as we need to revamp the laws regarding the use and legality over collection of data. What is happening is that there is illegal collection of data that is being used in backhanded ways to convict people of crimes. That is the most troubling aspect of it.

Just because I read an email that implied that my neighbor ran a stop sign every morning doesn't mean that said neighbor deserves a ticket, or deserves to get staked out at the stop sign. If I *saw* my neighbor running a stop sign every morning and reported it, I state my name, and my claim can be verified.

See the difference?

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
72. We don't need to "revamp" anything.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:34 PM
Apr 2014

The 4th Amendment is CLEAR:

[font size=3]"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."[/font]


This has worked great for over 250 years,
and I don't see throwing it away because a handful of Saudis knocked down the WTC.
THAT is what "they" want us to do.

We do NOT need a Homeland Security Department or the Militarization of our local Police,
OR and NSA to keep us safe from "terrorists".
Enhanced security at airports, and International Law Enforcement can do that job.

Accepting the NSA, and the Homeland Security Department, and the NDAA, and The Patriot Act, and the Militarization and National Coordination of our local Police Departments, and throwing away the 4th Amendment means...
...that [font size=3]The handful of Fundamentalist TERRORISTS have WON![/font]


Really....do you know what your odds are of being harmed by a terrorist?
Are you really willing to risk ALL of the above to reduce this by an infinitesimal fraction?
There are better ways to spend out time and treasure.
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
90. And there is that
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:56 PM
Apr 2014

but it is rather futile to have such a discussion when a Democrat is in the White House. If a Republican gets in there, then the complaint will be "well, we'll change things when we elect a Democrat".

That is the Ouroboros we are supposed to believe represents change.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
157. Corporations can only hire and fire us
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 07:38 PM
Apr 2014

They can't imprison us, indefinitely detain us, and rendition us to black sites.

Though bad cubicle positioning can feel that way at times.

brush

(53,467 posts)
35. And one of the nuances is Snowden's . . .
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:04 PM
Apr 2014

divulging details of his own country's international covert operations. Hooray for the revelations of domestic info gathering but the Snowdenistas don't want to seem to talk about or acknowledge that he made public details of our international operations.

That borders on sedition — some think it's way past sedition. Hell, even Putin called him a fellow spy during that Q&A charade he allowed himself to be used in.

I'll just call him a defector.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
42. Cue the feigned outrage
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:23 PM
Apr 2014

"I'm shocked, shocked, shocked to know that the US is spying on international competitors and enemies. OMG, I just can't believe they would do that."

Do you need some smelling salts?

brush

(53,467 posts)
55. Yeah but now our enemies have details on how our international covert operations were run.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:37 PM
Apr 2014

Last edited Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:48 PM - Edit history (1)

You think that's something to make smart remarks about?

If Snowden had had enough sense to stop at the domestic revelations he would have been a hero. Hell, I even applaud him for that, but he went too far.



 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
57. Here is a rock
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:38 PM
Apr 2014

It will keep the tigers away from you. You see, you haven't had any tigers attack you yet, have you?

brush

(53,467 posts)
58. You want proof about Snowden coughing up interational covert ops details?
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:40 PM
Apr 2014

Here's a link for you and your tigers: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024848926

Why try and defend that?

He went too far with the international covert leaks.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
66. He gave too many covert leaks when
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:04 PM
Apr 2014

he peed in a toilet in Russia for many folks around here. "What can they glean from his urine?"

That is about the basis for most of those posts because they want to shut the conversation down.

creeksneakers2

(7,468 posts)
69. Its not about peeing
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:23 PM
Apr 2014

Its about, just recently, Snowden gave out details of our intelligence penetration of China, tipping them off. There is a big difference between that and disclosing domestic surveillance. Snowden's supporters seem to be blind to that, being unable to see past a very black and white take on what's happened.

Snowden's critics aren't trying to shut the conversation down. There were no posts about gleaning from his urine.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
71. Every single post anti-Snowden
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:31 PM
Apr 2014

yours included, that paint him to be a spy, and not about the spy agencies and what their end goal is on spying on everyone is smearing the messenger. You want to talk about something? Tell me the positives about the NSA spy collective.

When you cannot, that IS about shutting the conversation down.

creeksneakers2

(7,468 posts)
79. The NSA spies on our enemies
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:55 PM
Apr 2014

and adversaries. Most Americans want them to do that. Just because I disagree with domestic surveillance doesn't mean I have to accept traitorous acts. I think you are derailing the conversation by only focusing on one thing and closing your eyes and ears to everything else.

I don't call Snowden a spy. He was a computer guy who broke his trust to both hurt and help his country.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
100. You said it correctly
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:08 AM
Apr 2014

"They spy on our adversaries."

They spy on the American people. Are we adversaries to our own government?

Our government folds when a bunch of lunatics take up rifles in Nevada to defend a deadbeat, but brings out the big guns of law when a huge breach of trust and violation of the Constitution is revealed?

Excuse me for not realizing who broke trust, how they broke trust and the trust they actually broke.

brush

(53,467 posts)
88. And one more thing if you wanna go there. . .
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:48 PM
Apr 2014

were you shocked, shocked, shocked that the NSA was gathering info domestically?

Not the newest story you know. PRISM started during the Cheney/Bush administration. Snowden's domestic revelations, which I agree with, re-opened the story that somehow didn't get traction during the Bush admin.

And if you don't know, Snowden himself said during the Bush admin that "leakers should be shot in the balls."
That's a direct quote from his online postings.

Wonder if having a black president had something to do with his 180 degree change of heart?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
101. Depth and Breadth of the information gathering
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:14 AM
Apr 2014

It's one thing to look at the dripping of a spout after a good rain.

It is entirely different to have an ocean run through it with purpose. If you don't see a problem with that, and make it entirely a black vs. white issue, I really don't know what to say to you. Black people are unfairly targeted via drug laws, and this allows the state to manufacture evidence.

I guess that is fine though.

brush

(53,467 posts)
117. What are you talking about?
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 10:20 AM
Apr 2014

Forget the parables — address issues directly pls. I didn't say anything about "manufacture evidence" or "targeting" or "peeing".

You wrote "Cue the feigned outrage" about Snowden revealing details about international info gathering as if the story of info gathering on the domestic front was something entirely new. I reminded you it was not. I could have easily also used "cue the feigned outrage" as the PRISM story was, shockingly, shockingly, shockingly, only re-opened by Greenwald thru Snowden's "appropriated" documents. I didn't not, nor did I go into parables about tigers or urine or on unrelated tangents of black people being unfairly targeted.

Apparently you don't want to deal with the fact that Snowden went too far (the domestic revelations, as I said before, was a good thing) in coughing up details about his own country's international covert operations.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
16. right because if I am glad he started a conversation on NSA phone data collection
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:29 PM
Apr 2014

I totally have to think it is cool to tell the Chinese what systems of theirs the NSA hacks and loves me some Russian propaganda making too. absolutely.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
45. If you kept up with current events
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:25 PM
Apr 2014

You would keep up with them all, not just those that support a narrow agenda (which we both know isn't true, but you are, after all, just trying to score points despite "current events" not supporting your narrative).

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
28. Well, if you were arguing honestly
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:57 PM
Apr 2014

you would have to prove that he did that. Since you won't and you aren't, you just imply, just like I stated above that "implying someone committed a crime" is the same as committing one.

Which leads back to the reason why I made this post. Look back on every single civilization in history and how "implication of committing a crime" automatically equaled committing a crime, and see what the effect was on the populace.

Find a positive one. You have history books galore and the internet to help base your case.

Again: I dare you.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
34. uh he committed the crime in China by doing an interview with a paper there
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:04 PM
Apr 2014

and he did the Russian propaganda on TV. What more is there to prove.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
63. "Here is some more
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:02 PM
Apr 2014

stuff that I pulled straight out of my nether regions."

Posting a link to it several times doesn't make it true. Oh well, guess you like the Fox News and GOP party tactic of "tell the same lie enough, it becomes fact, or at least reasonable doubt."

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
171. OK.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:11 PM
Apr 2014

You just transitioned from silly into ridiculous. Peace my friend, you aren't even in this at all.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
50. yes, proof please?
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:28 PM
Apr 2014

Or are you comfortable taking at face value a story in a right-wing Chinese newspaper that used to belong to Rupert Murdoch? Is that your only source?

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
53. he gave an interview to the newspaper. they make that up? all those quotes are false?
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:31 PM
Apr 2014

if so why didn't he say "holy shit, I didn't say any of that"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024848926

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
54. "I pulled it out of my butt
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:37 PM
Apr 2014

because I don't like the fact that Obama might have a smudge on his infallible person" is all the proof you need. It is the same shit that went on when Bush was in office. Bush could eat a baby on the White House lawn, televised, and suddenly, he would be a proponent of reducing the deficit and encouraging self-reliance on food security. Obama could eat a baby on the White House lawn, and suddenly, he would be a proponent of reducing the cycle of dependency on government and getting serious about climate change by lowering our carbon foot print.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
23. Yes some are, but not those that disparage Snowden obsessively. Originally they denied there was
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:53 PM
Apr 2014

a problem, as if they knew. And they post post after post of ad hominem attacks on Snowden as if the repetition will be somehow effective. And yet these posters never enter discussions about investigating the NSA/CIA/FBI cabal. Seems that they are mutually exclusive.

 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
39. Snowden Is A Hero
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:13 PM
Apr 2014

And our leaders are treasonous. Our intelligence agencies and security state are the biggest terrorists out there. Congratulations to Glenn Greenwald for winning the Pulitzer Prize. Anyone who whines about Snowden is a joke. I'd rather throw up in my own mouth than listen to them.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
77. I think he is the one
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:49 PM
Apr 2014

reveling in your disdain. I know I am.

"It is a sick society that aggrandizes those that feed on lies and demonizes those that stand up to their falsehoods."

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
31. It's disingenuous.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:01 PM
Apr 2014

They claim to state as fact that he broke the law, but disregard evidence that people that weren't even guilty or even SUSPECTED warranted surveillance.

It's okay to claim every person that you don't like is a spy, a traitor and an idiot, but revelation that such a thing is going on and being used to PROSECUTE such people as criminals on hearsay alone? That's a okay as long as my team benefits!!!!

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
113. Our children see a lot of authoritarianism as they grow. Parents, teachers,
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 08:20 AM
Apr 2014

church leaders, scout leaders, bosses, military leaders, etc. How many of them choose to teach that we need to think for ourselves and not blindly follow. It is much easier to lead those that blindly follow.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
17. One of democracy's greatest traitor was
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:33 PM
Apr 2014

Was Socrates
which is why I have a difficulty with the term.

SNOWDEN IS NOT A SOCRATES.

OK, that said now lets look at the word and concept of what it is a traitor

Was Socrates a traitor for corrupting the youths of Athens?


Yes it was a betrayal.

In the apology
Socrates said.

For people do not like to admit that their pretensions to knowledge have been exposed. And that, fellow Athenians, is the origin of the prejudices against me.


I really don't think its as simplistic as simple minds talk about when understanding what the word traitor means.


But some of you will ask, "Don't you regret what you did since now it might mean your death?" To these I answer,

"You are mistaken. A good man should not calculate his chances of living or dying. He should only ask himself whether he is doing right or wrong—whether his inner self is that of a good man or of an evil one."

And if you say to me, "Socrates, we will let you go free but only on condition that you stop your questioning," then I will reply,

"Men of Athens, I honor and love you. " For my aim is to persuade you all, young and old alike, not to think about your lives or your properties, but first and foremost to care about your inner self. I tell you that wealth does not make you good within, but that from inner goodness comes wealth and every other benefit to man. This is my teaching, and if it corrupts youth, then I suppose I am their corrupter.

To talk daily about what makes us good, and to question myself and others, is the greatest thing man can do. For the unexamined life is not worth living.


In terms of the 'republic' we need to sit back and think about the unexamined life the NSA gave us.....

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
43. You really aren't good at things
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:24 PM
Apr 2014

except when you put them in boxes are someone draws you a map to make things simple for you to understand.

Which was not my point on Socrates but I think you just respond on emotion and reactionary subjective despondency at a level of adolescence
asininity which negates any possible. adult conversation.


 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
51. Getting emotional
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:28 PM
Apr 2014

and posting emotional rhetoric might detract from factual information, which is entirely that particular poster's goal. Actually discussing violations of the Constitution, privacy laws and the dangers of the surveillance state are against said person's agenda.

That it is ILLEGALITY that Snowden revealed is to be masked every which way they can. Snowden revealed it, therefore Snowden is the criminal, not the criminal behavior he unmasked.

That is the source of the venom, and we must all realize it.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
36. +1
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:06 PM
Apr 2014

But like in Athens some people don't get it...challenging the norm and authority makes them nervous

treestar

(82,383 posts)
18. He has not been charged with treason
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:38 PM
Apr 2014

Only with releasing classified material. He's not even in that league.

The Bush argument is not valid. Bush did not get warrants. After Jan 20, Obama did. So quit claiming that.

That metadata was what people demanded the government get and use after 911. Everything was security, security, security, and the lack of such access was blamed for not finding one of the hijackers who had been here for months beforehand but was known to have AQ contacts.

There is no massive surveillance state. They get warrants and none of us are being spied on without some reason. Using this as an issue to beat on Democrats is ODS or people claiming the Democrats are no good either. It is trying to discourage us for 2014. Eddie is in it to get attention for himself. Every one of his stunts is an attempt to make it all about him.



Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
26. A very good topic and points. Though I wish Snowden (and wikileaks) would release everything.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:56 PM
Apr 2014

I don't like the idea of all that information in the hands of, who knows how many people? have unlimited access to those files?

I hope for his sake he finds another country who will accept him and he can have a decent safe life there. Because he didn't cause any harm by what he released. But we just don't know what future harm can come from the information in those files.

On the other hand, our country has created a monster of 'for profit' Security businesses, information collecting businesses. All funded by billions of OUR Federal funds.

Those contractors want more money, more profits, they want to grow and they have.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
56. All of the files obtained by Snowden have been handed over to Greenwald, Poitras et al.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:38 PM
Apr 2014

The information is being vetted and researched by journalists prior to publication. Snowden himself no longer is in possession of any of it.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
62. SharePoint files
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:59 PM
Apr 2014

that reveal intent are radically different than a database that has exobytes of information.

I'd get into the technical differences, if you would like, but having access to training documents, SOP documents, and related details is very different than the database itself. Which no one in their right mind would want to trawl through unless they specifically want to make a case against a person and use an algorithm (another fact brought to light) to do so.

Which reveals that it isn't targeted and reasonable suspicion data ... until it is.

Which is why it is fundamentally a violation of the 4th Amendment.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
92. I trust journalists more than I trust the Government when it comes to information regarding
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 11:18 PM
Apr 2014

NSA wrongdoing.

Really, if you're going to accuse Greenwald and Poitras of something it is your responsibility to provide evidence of wrongdoing. You don't have any, so that could be a bit of a problem.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
106. Not just, Greenwald and Poitras. I don't trust Snowden on who he shared files with &who else got him
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:52 AM
Apr 2014

in those job positions, along with the security clearances.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
108. I trust those that make
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 01:03 AM
Apr 2014

uncomfortable facts known over those that would hide them to benefit themselves. It upsets the applecart, but sometimes that needs to happen.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
111. Of course you don't.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 02:34 AM
Apr 2014

Unless you have some kind of evidence indicating that Snowden did, indeed, share information with someone other than Greenwald et al., then your conjecture is meaningless.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
170. The only "evidence" they have
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:08 PM
Apr 2014

is some rehashed crap from a Chinese RW newspaper and some other bullshit, which diminishes what the NSA is doing is illegal not one iota.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
173. It's the essence of propaganda.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:30 PM
Apr 2014

Keep repeating the demonstrably false lies, until enough low-information readers absorb it.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
174. Exactly
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:32 PM
Apr 2014

I'm stunned that people defend violations of the Constitution and Law, then slander those who reveal it.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
175. I have a friend who describes himself as politically aware and an extreme Liberal -
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:50 PM
Apr 2014

votes Democratic, hates Bush and Reagan, watches all the weekend talking head shows, rails against Cruz and Boehner and McConnell.

I think he's one of the most Conservative people I know. Why? Because his primary response to revelations of Government abuse is that the slide from Republic to Empire is inevitable and cannot be stopped, therefore it is foolish to try. The best we can hope for is to slow it down a bit. He's wrapped himself in the comfortable cloak of complacency, and sneers at those of us who are foolish enough to think we can change things.

His political philosophy is driven entirely by his hatred of Republicans - nothing else. Try and talk Progressive politics - say, proportional representation or public financing - and his response is nothing but derision.

I imagine he'd be right at home on some of these threads.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
176. That observation
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:54 PM
Apr 2014

scares the shit out of me, and is apt, too.

What in the hell are people thinking? "It won't happen to me"?

Have they not been educated in history? You can open a browser and learn enough to know that it isn't a good idea to have a surveillance state.

Lint Head

(15,064 posts)
29. Oh, the NSA is wonderful. I hope they have a Happy Easter and find all of their hidden eggs.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:59 PM
Apr 2014

I just love having my privacy violated. Oh, and water boarding would be hilariously fun. Don't even get me started with having drones follow me to the mall.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
30. Agreed.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:01 PM
Apr 2014

Given that the security apparatus couldn't figure out what to do when directly told by Russia that the Boston Bomber Brothers were a threat, it's inconceivable that they can do anything with the info being collected, other than serious mischief.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
41. If they aren't collecting said surveillance information
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:20 PM
Apr 2014

to thwart attacks, what in the hell are they collecting it for, and why is it so explosive that it came out that they were collecting it?

Is it because they are embarrassed over how inept they are at thwarting attacks even with the data, or is it that there is an entirely different end in mind besides "thwarting attacks".

Either way, neither reflects well on the money we dole out for these agencies in our tax dollars while yanking food out of the mouth of children, the disabled, the poor and the elderly.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
59. It is my belief that the NSA is collecting all this information to use in future prosecutions
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 05:43 PM
Apr 2014

of just about anyone. Remember, surveillance information has already found its way into criminal prosecutions and law enforcement agencies have been coached on how to lie about the source of the information so as to avoid legal issues.

The Government is building a huge database of information on American citizens that can be tapped, sans subpoena, whenever the Government needs to prosecute someone. It's much more efficient than adhering to Constitutional guidelines.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
85. There are building old fashion Hoover files on anyone who is anyone, or might be someone
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:36 PM
Apr 2014

Last edited Mon Apr 21, 2014, 10:03 PM - Edit history (1)

in the future.

J. Edgar Hoover is having a perpetual orgasm in his grave thinking about how much leverage the surveillance empire has on the levers of power.

sheshe2

(83,323 posts)
151. U.S.: Russia Withheld Intel on Boston Bomb Suspect
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 05:10 PM
Apr 2014

Russia withheld a crucial piece of information from the U.S. before the Boston bombings, U.S. officials say, bolstering a concern that distrust between the two governments erased an opportunity to avert the disaster.

In 2011, Russia sent an alert to the Federal Bureau of Investigation about alleged bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev, prompted in part by text messages between his mother and a Russian relative. The texts suggested Mr. Tsarnaev was interested in joining militant groups that Russia blames for attacks in the Caucasus region, according to U.S. officials briefed on the investigations.

U.S. officials call these text messages the most important in a series of missed signals between the two countries. One U.S. official characterized at least one of the text messages as generally discussing jihad, but without any specific mention of terrorism plans.

The U.S. officials say they learned about them roughly a week after the April 15 bombings. Several officials say such precise information would have led to a deeper examination of Mr. Tsarnaev, who died a few days after the bombing in a police confrontation. His brother and alleged accomplice remains in custody.

Read More: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324244304578475300856008018

Hokey Dokey Manny!

sheshe2

(83,323 posts)
179. Did you read it? Did you?
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 12:30 AM
Apr 2014

Yes they had warnings and Russia withheld strategic information. They were asked more than once and got effing crickets. Did you want Boston to jump down their throats on no concrete evidence? I thought you hated this NSA stuff yet you want them to respond without real evidence. Which is it Manny? You either like it or you do not. Or is it just damned if you do or damned if you do not.

Why do you bash America so? And Boston! And Obama!

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
182. So they were told of the danger, but not in the right words.
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 12:38 AM
Apr 2014

Interesting.

And *who* is the independent body that''s saying the *critical* stuff from the Russians didn't come until later?

P.S. - I'm not claiming that the Russian intelligence was mishandled. I don't know enough to know that. All I'm saying is that given that they can't stop a bombing when given a significant direct warning, it's unlikely that combing through reams of electronic darta will get them anything.

And, in fact, they've admitted (eventually) that it has gotten them nothing.

sheshe2

(83,323 posts)
184. You know what Manny...
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 12:59 AM
Apr 2014

It will never matter what I say or what I may link to. Facts don't seem to matter.

The article states that significant info was left out and unanswered. You rail against the overreach of this administration, yet without all the facts that is what you seem to wish had been done. You can not have it both ways! Your mind has always been made up. It is always a negative fact for you.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
185. As I said, law enforcement might have done the right thing wrt Tsarnaev
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 01:33 AM
Apr 2014

I'm skeptical, but open-minded.

But as to Spy On Everyone - yeah, unless some big new info comes out, my mind is made up. Probably everyone's is, at this point.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
67. It frightens me
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:14 PM
Apr 2014

that so many people in this world are so ignorant of history that they can see it happen again, right before their very eyes, in their own country, and call themselves "sensible" because they don't think it could ever happen again.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
75. This is to be expected......
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:43 PM
Apr 2014

Last edited Mon Apr 21, 2014, 03:27 PM - Edit history (1)

...of a people who live in FEAR.

- Unfortunately. Because there really is nothing to fear at all.

[center][/center]

jazzimov

(1,456 posts)
73. Actually, things have changed - A LOT!
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:37 PM
Apr 2014

Never before has such a large population willing given up their privacy rights. The very fact that you are posting on a public site means that you are being tracked. The ads are tracking you in order to supply relevent ads. I, myself, am part of several loyalty programs because they offer discounts. How are they able to offer these discounts one may ask? Because they are tracking my purchases and even have the right to sell that information to other outlets. I gave then that right when I signed up.

Your cell phone tracks your movements and your current location. That's how it is able to recommend restaurants, etc. "near me". You gave them that right when you signed up for the program. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Never before in the history of mankind have we had technology to invade privacy like we have today. This is uncharted territory.

I remember well the Bush Admin's intrusions - I was one of the most vocal against them. And guess what? We won! Sort of. It led to Congressional action, and new laws. Or have you forgotten 2008? The new laws did allow for data collection, BUT it placed it under the jurisdiction of the FISA courts. The metadata is tucked away securely in a database, with rigorous strictures for accessing it. If it so happens that the queries to this secure database reveals calls between American citizens, then the queries are to be reported immediately and only a Court Order allows further access.

It's not a perfect system by any stretch of the imagination. But it's better than it was. It can be even better, if we can dispense with these false accusations and look at the current laws objectively.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
74. "Traitor" isn't the right term.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:43 PM
Apr 2014

Since the NSA (government) is abusing our Constitutional freedoms, Snowden is a whistleblower for telling us that our own government is spying on us.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
76. Don't worry, Aerows. When the next Rethug is elected president
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:45 PM
Apr 2014

DU can go back to being against government surveillance.

Your example is why my interest in politics diminishes each year.

K&R

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
78. I tend to believe
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 06:53 PM
Apr 2014

no matter who gets elected in 2016, whether it is a Democrat OR a Republican this shit will die down. I will work my ass off to make it a Democrat.

But yeah, we have some here that could give to shits about Law, Constitution, or Civil Liberties as long as their candidate holds office. That a candidate is infallible, as history has shown, a bad idea.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
84. I Used To Fear Conservative Republicans... Now I Have To Worry About Conservative Democrats Too...
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:27 PM
Apr 2014

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
86. Conservative Democrats are more troubling. At least when a Republican is trying to undermine
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:43 PM
Apr 2014

democratic principles you will understand why, and you can just tell them to buzz off.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
87. Exactly... ConReps Will Attack You From The Front... ConDems Will Stab You In The Back...
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:47 PM
Apr 2014

And THAT.... is WAY worse.


Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
116. I fear people who label without having a clue
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 08:35 AM
Apr 2014

about the person they are labelling. Happens a lot here these days.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
91. So what's the excuse for pulling the cover on legit foreign intelligence operations?
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 11:02 PM
Apr 2014

Because not everything released has been in the public interest...

Why has he refused to name names of those responsible for wrongdoing at the NSA?

Why is he so steadfast in his assertion that surveillance and data collection conducted by corporate America isn't a problem? (especially in light of Google's more unsavory recent practices)...

FWIW, I've never called Snowden a traitor, which implies some kind of intent and premeditation...He's much closer to a useful idiot -- a victim of circumstance and manipulation by unscrupulous people around him...That circus at the press conference showed once and for all that not only is Snowden no longer running the "Patriotic Whistleblower" show; he was *never* in control of it...

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
102. What is your excuse
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:21 AM
Apr 2014

for shielding law enforcement that use evidence that they shouldn't use to put together cases that put people away for 30 years? Is that suddenly fine? When the DEA, the FBI and the NSA conspire together to put small time criminals in jail, it isn't revealed to their defender OR the judge, is that fair?

There is more than one edge to this, and it cuts a lot of different ways than you might imagine at first glance.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
123. I've long since denounced those
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:10 AM
Apr 2014

no "excuse" here...

Since nobody wants to address my question, I must continue to ask -- Who else other than Chinese intelligence could have possibly benefitted from the Huawei story? (to use an example) What purpose was served by leaking it?

For all the sensationalism and faux outrage over the "Eavesdropping on Merkel's cellphone" stories, why did I have to wait weeks for the *real* story to come out in German media about Merkel stubbornly ignoring her advisors and continuing to speak on an unsecured cell phone, along with the fact that the U.S. was only one of at least a half-dozen countries listening in?

I'm not saying he hasn't done some good things, but if Snowden can get all the praise in the world for the good, honorable things, then he deserves harsh criticism for the bad or highly questionable ones....

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
144. Wait ...
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 03:01 PM
Apr 2014

you have long since denounced such practices, so that means no one can denounce anything else, either?

I denounce violations of the Constitution. I denounce people being jailed for decades due to misdemeanors.

Does that mean I can no longer denounce the NSA/CIA/DEA colluding to send more people to jail?

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
104. Team sports. The same people who boycotted the Dixie Chicks say worse about Obama.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:31 AM
Apr 2014

Last edited Wed Apr 23, 2014, 04:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Team sports in politics is bad for democracy.

It means no one cares about the substance or the principles they purport to stand for, they just care if their team is "winning" and get very emotional when their team captain is criticized, even, no, especially, when warranted.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
109. Agreed.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 01:05 AM
Apr 2014

Thank you for pointing that out. It is a pernicious element in our community and our country.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
130. +1
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:50 AM
Apr 2014

The whole NSA program exists to make the world safe for wealthy private interests and their holdings.

US spooks work for multinational corporations and corporate ownership, not for us. We just pay the tab for their services, as dictated by corporate decree.

Progressive dog

(6,861 posts)
141. Snowden is not a traitor per US law,
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 02:34 PM
Apr 2014

he has not been indicted or accused (by the US government) of being a traitor.
His fan base excuses his violation of our laws by pretending that he has officially been accused of being a traitor. If they were so worried about the US Constitution, they would be telling Eddie to come home, stand trial, and vindicate himself. The problem, which Eddie is smart enough to recognize, is that courts have rules of evidence.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
154. And you can't stand the fact
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 07:32 PM
Apr 2014

that he revealed wrongdoing on President Obama's watch.

That is the number 1 problem with most of the "I hate Snowden" crowd.

The flip side is that if it happened under a Republican, you would be, Progressive Dog, howling for justice.

"Get a Democrat in office and we can fix all of this!"

I've been here before.

All of this will suddenly be abhorrent the day a Republican takes the executive office, and you will pretend that people weren't pissed when there WAS a Republican in office (Bush), pissed that it continued with a Democrat in office (Obama) and etc.

Progressive dog

(6,861 posts)
189. Why do you suppose Snowden fans continue to look for reasons
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 10:18 AM
Apr 2014

why an American might not like a guy who stole from our government and fled to Russia. All we're asking is that he come home and stand trial for the crimes he has been accused of.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
191. You know why
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 04:15 PM
Apr 2014

and I'm no "fan" of Snowden. I was opposed to this under Bush, and guess what? I'm opposed to it under Obama. At least I'm consistent.

If Romney was in the White House you and the rest of the crew would be screaming bloody murder. I know, because I can read DU2 archives as can anyone else.

Progressive dog

(6,861 posts)
192. Snowden is an accused criminal no matter who is in the White House and
Wed Apr 23, 2014, 07:20 AM
Apr 2014

I believe in our system of government.
BTW What do DU archives have to do with Snowden?

 

Obnoxious_One

(97 posts)
153. i just don't understand the hate against Edward Snowden
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 07:00 PM
Apr 2014

Last edited Mon Apr 21, 2014, 09:10 PM - Edit history (1)

The man is hero for having the courage to reveal the criminal elements in the government.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
162. I want to reiterate something
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 07:55 PM
Apr 2014

If you stated prior to January 20, 2009 that a Democrat in the White House would fix everything and would repeal the Patriot Act, I would have believed you back then.

The problem is that going forward, convincing anyone that a Democratic President is going to do anything differently than a Republican one has issues. Deep problems. Why? It is due to Obama's reluctance to end all of this bullshit surveillance state.

We need to actually change this. Not slowly. Not meekly. We need to DEFUND it, because money is the only thing that matters. If you yank food out of the mouths of children and the elderly just so you can spy on working people, you are the worst sort of government.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
187. Americans seem to be ignorant of The Stasi State. Don't know why, it was drilled in our heads in
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 01:47 AM
Apr 2014

my high school back in the 60's.

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