General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFor those that call Edward Snowden a Traitor
He would have been called one no matter what administration he revealed these violations against the Constitution.
You are correct. It would just depend on what party would be calling him "traitor." That, of course, depends under which administration he revealed the violations of the Constitution. You know it, I know it, everyone with two brain cells to rub together know it.
DU2 prior to January 20, 2009 was especially concerned about the surveillance state (I refuse to call it the security state because it offers no security and certainly fails to protect us against domestic terrorists and mass murderers). The archives are there for all to see.
Massive, invasive state surveillance has *NEVER* in the course of history *EVER* benefited the constituents and citizens of such a state of surveillance.
Explain it as an explosion of technological ability, rehash it as protection for the citizens, and you know what you get? The justifications made by every single government in history that did it. If you want to know where it leads, open a damn history book, and see how *they* were also threatened by a populace that knew more than they "should".
People scream technology like this is the first time humankind has ever made an advancement in communications. NO.
Again, open a history book. Go as far back as you like, then ask yourself "are these the same excuses, are these the same motives, and how did that turn out for the people?"
I dare you.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Regardless of my thoughts on the Iraq War, Watada was a blue falcon. He bugged out and screwed his buddies who did their duty.
Regardless of how the court martial proceedings went and the subsequent choice not to retry, I' for one, could never trust such a man.
Watada is as much of a Blue Falcon as Lakin. It doesn't matter who is president when it comes to the military and intelligence services.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to do with Whistle Blowers who are protected by law in this democracy.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)He gave that moniker up when he crossed the line from revealing the illegal domestic spying (whistleblowing) to revealing operational specifics of international intelligence gathering activities (espionage).
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Whistle Blower.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)And it doesn't matter any way. The law says he's a criminal.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)have made clear, says that those who violate the people's rights under what this country has accepted as the law of the land, are traitors.
Which is why all elected officials and military personnel take an oath to 'defend and protect THE CONSTITUTION from all enemies, both foreign and domestic'. They are asked to protect a particular political party or politician or General or anything else, they are sworn to protect the Constitution. If you don't like that, then start working to change it by electing Right Wingers who made their distaste for it, 'just a quaint document' very clear during the Bush years. But until that happens, like it or not, the Constitution is the law of the land and those who violate it are criminals.
Snowden, among others, soldiers who refused to take illegal orders eg, take their oaths very seriously.
You have been wrong about a few things here, eg, the ages of the FFs many of whom were extremely young, information I provided for you and am more than happy to provide again, NOT 'old men' by any stretch of the imagination so I take what you say with a grain of salt until I see something to back it up from now on.
Such as 'I doubt' that a majority of the American people view Snowden as a Whistle Blower. Facts are stubborn things, someone once said. And here are some more facts for you re Snowden, the American People, and Whistle Blowing:
On the contrary, polls consistently show the American People view Snowden as a Whistle Blower:
http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm
Traitor! Whistle-blower! Unsure! No answer!
% % %
1/4-7/14
34. 57. 9
7/28-31/13
34. 55. 11
6/28 - 7/8/13
34. 55. 11
An increase of 2% since last July in favor of Snowden as Whistle Blower.
The American people take their Constitutional Rights way more seriously than some people thought.
That one third is the same % of mostly right wingers who support the Surveillance that you would expect.
Edward Snowden Whistle Blower. The American people have spoken.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)"The Constitution which is STILL the law of this land, despite your distaste for it, as youhave made clear, says that those who violate the people's rights under what this country has accepted as the law of the land, are traitors."
The constitution says no such thing.
Article III, Section 3 first clause:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
That describes Snowden, not anybody in the NSA. Member of the NSA have violated the 4th amendment, but none have committed the crime of treason, unlike Snowden.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)of a crime without due process.
Snowden is a Whistle Blower, protected by law in this country. He has exposed serious wrong doing against the American people committed by those placed in some of the highest positions of trust. That trust has been shattered, time and time again, as the polls which you claim not to have read, demonstrate.
I am glad to see you at least refer to that 'worthless' document you were so upset with me for even mentioning, written by a 'bunch of old white slave owners' according to you.
Of course that was a totally incorrect statement from you as I proved.
The American people have spoken about all of this and view Snowden as a Whistle Blower NOT a traitor, which they were asked specifically.
So as part of the one third minority your opinion is not relevant frankly.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)He's the one that refuses to return to stand trial.
And I am free to judge him at any time. I am not the government.
He's guilty. End of discussion from my viewpoint.
Rockyj
(538 posts)Treason? Snowden? What a joke.
Clapper needs to be charged for lying under oath.
Bush,Cheney, Rice & Powell all should be charged with MURDER for having our young men and women killed in a illegal war.
We need to get rid of the Patriotic Act!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)when we worked so hard to kick out Republicans in 2008.
As for the poster, I know. Fortunately it appears the American people are waking up and overwhelming believe that Snowden is a Whistle Blower, the numbers only increasing despite all the propaganda generated against him.
Thank for your comment.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)"If a Democrat is in office, we must support all policies, even if they are virulent to the Democratic Party platform."
If a Republican is in office, we hate the things they do, but hey, things will get better if we elect more Democrats!"
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You are a light amongst those who would prefer to remain in darkness. You and a handful of others are like me - we do not care who is in office, we desire justice, truth and transparency.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I don't care who is in office, the truth is truth and both sides try hard to suppress it when their team is IN office, they do the opposite when their team is OUT of office. But I was naive, I thought we were part of the party that would remain consistent about the issues. I was wrong.
I am glad we've had this wake up call, I might have remained a blind partisan too as I probably was, had we not seen all this unfold. It was a shock at first, now I take comfort in knowing that we are going through a very difficult historic period and that we are on the right side. As has often happened before, history will record that.
So glad you are here, real progressives are leaving DU by the day and I wish they would not, but I can't say I blame them. Who needs to come here to see all these right wing talking points, when the point in coming here was to avoid them?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You and some other folks here are real treasures. Don't let the ones that would slander, or harness you to bad gossip get to you.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Rockyj
(538 posts)mass data on US citizens without a warrant or probable cause. Its not sound and doesn't make sense to why they would need all this information. The only reason a government would do this is Orwellian, so why are we allowing our government to continue to do this?
I do not understand why so many progressives have fallen for the character assassination of Edward Snowden; from the get go, including President Obama, they started calling him traitor and setting this mind set that too many democrats and progressives have adopted.
I don't get it.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)measured it, and found it wanting.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
elias49
(4,259 posts)some never grow up.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Now, though, I might just use it all the time.
Sid
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Because it did not fit your preconceived notions...so wear it as a stinky badge of honor then.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)dropping like a rock! Still nothing he said has been proved to be illegal in a high court!
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Keep on trying
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Well if you say so then it must be true...just keep saying it and it will be true...that is how the principle of propaganda works...the right wingers know and love that principle.
Moral certainty can deafen people to any truth other than their own.
Geraldine Brooks
In our time political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible.
George Orwell
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Polls taken starting last year, despite the propaganda against him, consistently show the American people view him as a Whistle Blower. In fact the last poll showed on increase in support for that position:
http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm
Traitor! Whistle-blower! Unsure! No answer!
% % %
1/4-7/14
34. 57. 9
7/28-31/13
34. 55. 11
6/28 - 7/8/13
34. 55. 11
An increase of 2% since last July in favor of Snowden as Whistle Blower.
The American people take their Constitutional Rights way more seriously than some people thought.
That one third is the same % of mostly right wingers who support the Surveillance that you would expect.
Edward Snowden Whistle Blower. The American people have spoken.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)you can not be one unless you have exposed something illegal.....
as I said early ,,, the only warrants issued for anything illegal are the warrants for Comrade Snowden arrest. and its been over a year now.......
As for Constitutional rights, it seems you don't understand the 9th amend in regards to how is protects my rights from you yours.......
Proclaim it all you want but he is a Traitor.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Snowden is a Whistle Blower, period, and no amount of denial is going to change that. Thankfully his exposures of the crimes of those violating our Constitutional Rights, have brought about some efforts to reform these Bush policies, not nearly enough yet, but we are making progress.
He is not of course the first Whistle Blower to expose these crimes against the people, just the latest one and if these violations continue, there will be more Snowdens, and Binneys and Drakes. And as Whistle Blowers they are entitled to protections under the law. So far those laws too have not been observed. But things are changing for the better, thanks to the brave men and women who are willing to risk everything on behalf of their country.
The best way not to have any more Snowdens, is for our Government agencies and officials to make sure they or those they oversee, end their illegal activities.
If you violate the Constitution you naturally are going to be exposed and eventually, hopefully brought to justice, starting with the top perps themselves who instituted these practices, Cheney/Bush et al and work down from there.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Period.
This bizarre thread is running a close second.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)So please do!
dionysus
(26,467 posts)vaht?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Thinks he could return to the US and not face justice for his crimes? Well, understand why many, many do not stand behind Snowden and his choices, he made bad decisions but it does not change the facts of his crimes. Leave the zero on the curb where he kicked himself.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)He upset the naive security comfort that the authoritarian state gave you. Therefore, he must be punished along with all that might dare expose truth to power. But post after post of hatred isnt what I would hope for on a politically liberal message board.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)But when it comes to Snowden many do not want the truth, it has nothing to do with a liberal board. When you don't get the response which make you feel good then the authoritarian state comes out. Maybe it is the dislike of Snowden's deeds which I dislike. Bring him back to face justice, if the evidence is available and presented we will see the results but in my book he doesn't get clemency.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)those crimes against the people? 'Bring back Snowden to face justice'. Got anything to say about bringing the actual Perps to justice?
Personally I don't give a flying fuck about the messengers, and it's stunning to me to see people on THIS forum totally ignore what Ron Wyden, among others, have been desperately trying to warn the American about for years now.
Snowden's Whistle Blowing is only the latest in a growing line of Whistle Blowers trying to warn us about the destruction of our rights and has helped elected officials like Ron Wyden and Udall eg, to finally get this serious issue into the public debate.
And all you seem to be concerned about is the messenger. That seems very odd to this Democrat considering how outraged democrats were throughout the Bush years over THIS VERY ISSUE.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)type of information you are posting is never going to change the evidence which has been collected on Snowden, he will never return to the US. He is either Putin's patsy now or he is just dumb when it comes to Russian techniques. It sounds like he is Putin's patsy, a spy who came in from the cold.
In particular, what has Snowden exposed which is serious violations of the U S Constitution?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)which is still the same as it was when we THREW THEM OUT in 2008, still filled with Bush's cronies and violators of the Constitution against the American people.
Still obsessed with the messenger, still trying to distract from the Massive Surveillance of the American people that should, and in fact, HAS shocked the American people as polls are showing consistently since the revelations began.
The very fact that you have to ASK, here on DU, what violations have been exposed tells me you have been focused ONLY on the messenger and have not even bothered to find out what was exposed.
That is not my problem. You can throw away your own rights if you like, but you don't get to throw away the rights of the American people and polls show they don't intend to allow that.
Snowden, like Ellsberg and all other Whistle Blowers will be fine. It takes time when there is no will in Congress to go after the perps, but it will happen and when it does Snowden, Drake, Binney, Tice and all those Whistle Blowers to come, will be viewed in the same way Ellsberg is.
It must be awful to find yourself on the wrong side of history, as all those who were obsessed with Ellsberg now find THEMSELVES. Not even footnotes in history. While he will forever be viewed as a hero.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)okay Snowden is a criminal and there are others who are also criminals, then so be it. This does not excuse the espionage and theft Snowden has been charged with.
I still would like to know exactly what is the violation of the U S Constitution. I am on the side of the Constitution and the laws of the US. I'll stay where I am.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)American people. Those on the side of the Constitution and the laws of the US support Snowden as a Whistle Blower consistently in poll after poll since the revelations of those violations.
We can't both be on the side of the Constitution if one of us doesn't acknowledge that Snowden is a Whistle Blower and continues to insist that blowing the whistle on wrong doing is a crime.
It is not.
Whistle Blowers are an essential part of any Democracy.
Snowden is a Whistle Blower in the views of an overwhelming majority of the American people.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Determine the majority of the American people? Your poll is not very scientific.
I am still waiting on an answer about what part of the US Constitution has been violated. If Snowden was working for a different department in the government he may have been classified as a Whistleblower but I am sure by now you have read the Whistleblower Act and you know intelligence departments are EXCLUDED from the Whistleblower Act so he does not have protection. I am stating Snowden was working in the intelligence department and therefore he does nit have this protection. Laws, rules, articles sections of written laws which have stood the test of time does not have exceptions written to exclude Snowden or anyone else to pick and choose what parts we like or don't like. If we allow these rules, articles, etc to be ignored then there will not be any protections ever and we could become like Russia or other countries with dictatorships. You want your freedom of speech, etc you have to follow the other parts as well.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)That is a treasonous violation of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution. They have been doing it FOR PROFIT for Private Security Contractors, among other things, cynically using 9/11 to extract billions of dollars of our money, most of them Bush pals.
The President's panel to look into those programs found that they did NOTHING to keep the American people safe.
Thank you to all the Whistle Blowers, including Snowden, and to Sen. Ron Wyden who have been trying to warn the American people since Bush first secretly instituted these criminal activities which are a despicable violation of the American people's rights.
zappaman
(20,605 posts)Says the poster who calls those that disagree with him "authoritarians" over and over and over...
Googling your name and "authoritarian" is worth doing for the laugh!
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Having shit-fits about Snowden are ultimately beside the point.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Littering the public discourse.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 20, 2014, 04:35 PM - Edit history (1)
thinking snowden is a traitor and wanting the security state brought under control. some people are capable of nuance.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)It is the surveillance state. Some people are capable of nuance.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)There is a difference.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)huh?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)because they have prevented exactly no instances of mass murder or domestic terrorism, even when alerted that such dangers might be in progress. I'm not sure what world you live in where the brave agents of the NSA, FBI and CIA actually heed actionable intelligence, but they were warned over several instances and surprisingly, the only ones that benefited were their confederates in contract military organizations.
The Underwear Bomber - warned by everyone including the "bomber's" father himself, oh look, Chertoff has an excuse for Rapiscan machines to be deployed.
The Boston Marathon Bomber - actionable intelligence provided THREE times, everyone looked away.
If you call that security and not just surveillance for the sake of surveillance ... what on earth do you consider "inappropriate surveillance"? I mean, listening in on calls those of our Armed Forces in foreign countries made to their partners and spouses as they did the only thing available to them to have intimacy is sure to turn up a treasure trove of actionable intelligence!
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)That's the same thing I think when this is touted as "for security purposes".
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm not certain if it is "are you really a person on DU" which I am, or some other code that I am not initiated in.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You're wasting your time.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)No minds are being changed.
The bell has been rung, and it cannot be un-rung. The national and global conversation on the surveillance state has been started. Ergo, Snowden has accomplished his goal. It cannot be unstarted.
Hammering him is a waste of time and only adds to his creds as a man of importance.
Response to grasswire (Reply #44)
Cali_Democrat This message was self-deleted by its author.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Paulie
(8,462 posts)Was that way for years.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)but I will never call it security, because it has only surveillance in mind.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)I posted a poll quite some time ago and almost everyone said they wanted it curtailed and controlled.
But we aren't going to get rid of espionage when it comes to non-citizens.
And then there's the fact that corporations have almost as much access to American citizens' information as the NSA is claimed to have.
On some level, I wonder if humanity is going to have to revamp it's concept of privacy.
Which is ironic
as Americans live in super huge McMansions with every one having their own bedroom AND bathroom
arguably way more physical privacy we have almost none electronically.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)so much as we need to revamp the laws regarding the use and legality over collection of data. What is happening is that there is illegal collection of data that is being used in backhanded ways to convict people of crimes. That is the most troubling aspect of it.
Just because I read an email that implied that my neighbor ran a stop sign every morning doesn't mean that said neighbor deserves a ticket, or deserves to get staked out at the stop sign. If I *saw* my neighbor running a stop sign every morning and reported it, I state my name, and my claim can be verified.
See the difference?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The 4th Amendment is CLEAR:
This has worked great for over 250 years,
and I don't see throwing it away because a handful of Saudis knocked down the WTC.
THAT is what "they" want us to do.
We do NOT need a Homeland Security Department or the Militarization of our local Police,
OR and NSA to keep us safe from "terrorists".
Enhanced security at airports, and International Law Enforcement can do that job.
Accepting the NSA, and the Homeland Security Department, and the NDAA, and The Patriot Act, and the Militarization and National Coordination of our local Police Departments, and throwing away the 4th Amendment means...
...that [font size=3]The handful of Fundamentalist TERRORISTS have WON![/font]
Really....do you know what your odds are of being harmed by a terrorist?
Are you really willing to risk ALL of the above to reduce this by an infinitesimal fraction?
There are better ways to spend out time and treasure.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)but it is rather futile to have such a discussion when a Democrat is in the White House. If a Republican gets in there, then the complaint will be "well, we'll change things when we elect a Democrat".
That is the Ouroboros we are supposed to believe represents change.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)for knowing what a Ouroboros is
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)They can't imprison us, indefinitely detain us, and rendition us to black sites.
Though bad cubicle positioning can feel that way at times.
brush
(53,467 posts)divulging details of his own country's international covert operations. Hooray for the revelations of domestic info gathering but the Snowdenistas don't want to seem to talk about or acknowledge that he made public details of our international operations.
That borders on sedition some think it's way past sedition. Hell, even Putin called him a fellow spy during that Q&A charade he allowed himself to be used in.
I'll just call him a defector.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)"I'm shocked, shocked, shocked to know that the US is spying on international competitors and enemies. OMG, I just can't believe they would do that."
Do you need some smelling salts?
brush
(53,467 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:48 PM - Edit history (1)
You think that's something to make smart remarks about?
If Snowden had had enough sense to stop at the domestic revelations he would have been a hero. Hell, I even applaud him for that, but he went too far.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)It will keep the tigers away from you. You see, you haven't had any tigers attack you yet, have you?
brush
(53,467 posts)Here's a link for you and your tigers: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024848926
Why try and defend that?
He went too far with the international covert leaks.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)he peed in a toilet in Russia for many folks around here. "What can they glean from his urine?"
That is about the basis for most of those posts because they want to shut the conversation down.
creeksneakers2
(7,468 posts)Its about, just recently, Snowden gave out details of our intelligence penetration of China, tipping them off. There is a big difference between that and disclosing domestic surveillance. Snowden's supporters seem to be blind to that, being unable to see past a very black and white take on what's happened.
Snowden's critics aren't trying to shut the conversation down. There were no posts about gleaning from his urine.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)yours included, that paint him to be a spy, and not about the spy agencies and what their end goal is on spying on everyone is smearing the messenger. You want to talk about something? Tell me the positives about the NSA spy collective.
When you cannot, that IS about shutting the conversation down.
creeksneakers2
(7,468 posts)and adversaries. Most Americans want them to do that. Just because I disagree with domestic surveillance doesn't mean I have to accept traitorous acts. I think you are derailing the conversation by only focusing on one thing and closing your eyes and ears to everything else.
I don't call Snowden a spy. He was a computer guy who broke his trust to both hurt and help his country.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)"They spy on our adversaries."
They spy on the American people. Are we adversaries to our own government?
Our government folds when a bunch of lunatics take up rifles in Nevada to defend a deadbeat, but brings out the big guns of law when a huge breach of trust and violation of the Constitution is revealed?
Excuse me for not realizing who broke trust, how they broke trust and the trust they actually broke.
and YAY!!! again!
brush
(53,467 posts)were you shocked, shocked, shocked that the NSA was gathering info domestically?
Not the newest story you know. PRISM started during the Cheney/Bush administration. Snowden's domestic revelations, which I agree with, re-opened the story that somehow didn't get traction during the Bush admin.
And if you don't know, Snowden himself said during the Bush admin that "leakers should be shot in the balls."
That's a direct quote from his online postings.
Wonder if having a black president had something to do with his 180 degree change of heart?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)It's one thing to look at the dripping of a spout after a good rain.
It is entirely different to have an ocean run through it with purpose. If you don't see a problem with that, and make it entirely a black vs. white issue, I really don't know what to say to you. Black people are unfairly targeted via drug laws, and this allows the state to manufacture evidence.
I guess that is fine though.
brush
(53,467 posts)Forget the parables address issues directly pls. I didn't say anything about "manufacture evidence" or "targeting" or "peeing".
You wrote "Cue the feigned outrage" about Snowden revealing details about international info gathering as if the story of info gathering on the domestic front was something entirely new. I reminded you it was not. I could have easily also used "cue the feigned outrage" as the PRISM story was, shockingly, shockingly, shockingly, only re-opened by Greenwald thru Snowden's "appropriated" documents. I didn't not, nor did I go into parables about tigers or urine or on unrelated tangents of black people being unfairly targeted.
Apparently you don't want to deal with the fact that Snowden went too far (the domestic revelations, as I said before, was a good thing) in coughing up details about his own country's international covert operations.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I totally have to think it is cool to tell the Chinese what systems of theirs the NSA hacks and loves me some Russian propaganda making too. absolutely.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)You would keep up with them all, not just those that support a narrow agenda (which we both know isn't true, but you are, after all, just trying to score points despite "current events" not supporting your narrative).
Aerows
(39,961 posts)you would have to prove that he did that. Since you won't and you aren't, you just imply, just like I stated above that "implying someone committed a crime" is the same as committing one.
Which leads back to the reason why I made this post. Look back on every single civilization in history and how "implication of committing a crime" automatically equaled committing a crime, and see what the effect was on the populace.
Find a positive one. You have history books galore and the internet to help base your case.
Again: I dare you.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)and he did the Russian propaganda on TV. What more is there to prove.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)stuff that I pulled straight out of my nether regions."
Posting a link to it several times doesn't make it true. Oh well, guess you like the Fox News and GOP party tactic of "tell the same lie enough, it becomes fact, or at least reasonable doubt."
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)which you like to play.
What's next, a link to RT?
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)You just transitioned from silly into ridiculous. Peace my friend, you aren't even in this at all.
brush
(53,467 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)Or are you comfortable taking at face value a story in a right-wing Chinese newspaper that used to belong to Rupert Murdoch? Is that your only source?
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)if so why didn't he say "holy shit, I didn't say any of that"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024848926
Aerows
(39,961 posts)because I don't like the fact that Obama might have a smudge on his infallible person" is all the proof you need. It is the same shit that went on when Bush was in office. Bush could eat a baby on the White House lawn, televised, and suddenly, he would be a proponent of reducing the deficit and encouraging self-reliance on food security. Obama could eat a baby on the White House lawn, and suddenly, he would be a proponent of reducing the cycle of dependency on government and getting serious about climate change by lowering our carbon foot print.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)a problem, as if they knew. And they post post after post of ad hominem attacks on Snowden as if the repetition will be somehow effective. And yet these posters never enter discussions about investigating the NSA/CIA/FBI cabal. Seems that they are mutually exclusive.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)like that?
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)And our leaders are treasonous. Our intelligence agencies and security state are the biggest terrorists out there. Congratulations to Glenn Greenwald for winning the Pulitzer Prize. Anyone who whines about Snowden is a joke. I'd rather throw up in my own mouth than listen to them.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)reveling in your disdain. I know I am.
"It is a sick society that aggrandizes those that feed on lies and demonizes those that stand up to their falsehoods."
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)They claim to state as fact that he broke the law, but disregard evidence that people that weren't even guilty or even SUSPECTED warranted surveillance.
It's okay to claim every person that you don't like is a spy, a traitor and an idiot, but revelation that such a thing is going on and being used to PROSECUTE such people as criminals on hearsay alone? That's a okay as long as my team benefits!!!!
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)I wonder if they read history, or if they want to reenact it.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)and it tells me that we want to leach the creative spirit out of our children.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)church leaders, scout leaders, bosses, military leaders, etc. How many of them choose to teach that we need to think for ourselves and not blindly follow. It is much easier to lead those that blindly follow.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Was Socrates
which is why I have a difficulty with the term.
SNOWDEN IS NOT A SOCRATES.
OK, that said now lets look at the word and concept of what it is a traitor
Was Socrates a traitor for corrupting the youths of Athens?
Yes it was a betrayal.
In the apology
Socrates said.
For people do not like to admit that their pretensions to knowledge have been exposed. And that, fellow Athenians, is the origin of the prejudices against me.
I really don't think its as simplistic as simple minds talk about when understanding what the word traitor means.
But some of you will ask, "Don't you regret what you did since now it might mean your death?" To these I answer,
"You are mistaken. A good man should not calculate his chances of living or dying. He should only ask himself whether he is doing right or wrongwhether his inner self is that of a good man or of an evil one."
And if you say to me, "Socrates, we will let you go free but only on condition that you stop your questioning," then I will reply,
"Men of Athens, I honor and love you. " For my aim is to persuade you all, young and old alike, not to think about your lives or your properties, but first and foremost to care about your inner self. I tell you that wealth does not make you good within, but that from inner goodness comes wealth and every other benefit to man. This is my teaching, and if it corrupts youth, then I suppose I am their corrupter.
To talk daily about what makes us good, and to question myself and others, is the greatest thing man can do. For the unexamined life is not worth living.
In terms of the 'republic' we need to sit back and think about the unexamined life the NSA gave us.....
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)gotcha
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)except when you put them in boxes are someone draws you a map to make things simple for you to understand.
Which was not my point on Socrates but I think you just respond on emotion and reactionary subjective despondency at a level of adolescence
asininity which negates any possible. adult conversation.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and posting emotional rhetoric might detract from factual information, which is entirely that particular poster's goal. Actually discussing violations of the Constitution, privacy laws and the dangers of the surveillance state are against said person's agenda.
That it is ILLEGALITY that Snowden revealed is to be masked every which way they can. Snowden revealed it, therefore Snowden is the criminal, not the criminal behavior he unmasked.
That is the source of the venom, and we must all realize it.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)But like in Athens some people don't get it...challenging the norm and authority makes them nervous
treestar
(82,383 posts)Only with releasing classified material. He's not even in that league.
The Bush argument is not valid. Bush did not get warrants. After Jan 20, Obama did. So quit claiming that.
That metadata was what people demanded the government get and use after 911. Everything was security, security, security, and the lack of such access was blamed for not finding one of the hijackers who had been here for months beforehand but was known to have AQ contacts.
There is no massive surveillance state. They get warrants and none of us are being spied on without some reason. Using this as an issue to beat on Democrats is ODS or people claiming the Democrats are no good either. It is trying to discourage us for 2014. Eddie is in it to get attention for himself. Every one of his stunts is an attempt to make it all about him.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)I don't like the idea of all that information in the hands of, who knows how many people? have unlimited access to those files?
I hope for his sake he finds another country who will accept him and he can have a decent safe life there. Because he didn't cause any harm by what he released. But we just don't know what future harm can come from the information in those files.
On the other hand, our country has created a monster of 'for profit' Security businesses, information collecting businesses. All funded by billions of OUR Federal funds.
Those contractors want more money, more profits, they want to grow and they have.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The information is being vetted and researched by journalists prior to publication. Snowden himself no longer is in possession of any of it.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)that reveal intent are radically different than a database that has exobytes of information.
I'd get into the technical differences, if you would like, but having access to training documents, SOP documents, and related details is very different than the database itself. Which no one in their right mind would want to trawl through unless they specifically want to make a case against a person and use an algorithm (another fact brought to light) to do so.
Which reveals that it isn't targeted and reasonable suspicion data ... until it is.
Which is why it is fundamentally a violation of the 4th Amendment.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)NSA wrongdoing.
Really, if you're going to accuse Greenwald and Poitras of something it is your responsibility to provide evidence of wrongdoing. You don't have any, so that could be a bit of a problem.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)in those job positions, along with the security clearances.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)uncomfortable facts known over those that would hide them to benefit themselves. It upsets the applecart, but sometimes that needs to happen.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Unless you have some kind of evidence indicating that Snowden did, indeed, share information with someone other than Greenwald et al., then your conjecture is meaningless.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)is some rehashed crap from a Chinese RW newspaper and some other bullshit, which diminishes what the NSA is doing is illegal not one iota.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Keep repeating the demonstrably false lies, until enough low-information readers absorb it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm stunned that people defend violations of the Constitution and Law, then slander those who reveal it.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)votes Democratic, hates Bush and Reagan, watches all the weekend talking head shows, rails against Cruz and Boehner and McConnell.
I think he's one of the most Conservative people I know. Why? Because his primary response to revelations of Government abuse is that the slide from Republic to Empire is inevitable and cannot be stopped, therefore it is foolish to try. The best we can hope for is to slow it down a bit. He's wrapped himself in the comfortable cloak of complacency, and sneers at those of us who are foolish enough to think we can change things.
His political philosophy is driven entirely by his hatred of Republicans - nothing else. Try and talk Progressive politics - say, proportional representation or public financing - and his response is nothing but derision.
I imagine he'd be right at home on some of these threads.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)scares the shit out of me, and is apt, too.
What in the hell are people thinking? "It won't happen to me"?
Have they not been educated in history? You can open a browser and learn enough to know that it isn't a good idea to have a surveillance state.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)I just love having my privacy violated. Oh, and water boarding would be hilariously fun. Don't even get me started with having drones follow me to the mall.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Given that the security apparatus couldn't figure out what to do when directly told by Russia that the Boston Bomber Brothers were a threat, it's inconceivable that they can do anything with the info being collected, other than serious mischief.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)to thwart attacks, what in the hell are they collecting it for, and why is it so explosive that it came out that they were collecting it?
Is it because they are embarrassed over how inept they are at thwarting attacks even with the data, or is it that there is an entirely different end in mind besides "thwarting attacks".
Either way, neither reflects well on the money we dole out for these agencies in our tax dollars while yanking food out of the mouth of children, the disabled, the poor and the elderly.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)of just about anyone. Remember, surveillance information has already found its way into criminal prosecutions and law enforcement agencies have been coached on how to lie about the source of the information so as to avoid legal issues.
The Government is building a huge database of information on American citizens that can be tapped, sans subpoena, whenever the Government needs to prosecute someone. It's much more efficient than adhering to Constitutional guidelines.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 21, 2014, 10:03 PM - Edit history (1)
in the future.
J. Edgar Hoover is having a perpetual orgasm in his grave thinking about how much leverage the surveillance empire has on the levers of power.
sheshe2
(83,323 posts)Russia withheld a crucial piece of information from the U.S. before the Boston bombings, U.S. officials say, bolstering a concern that distrust between the two governments erased an opportunity to avert the disaster.
In 2011, Russia sent an alert to the Federal Bureau of Investigation about alleged bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev, prompted in part by text messages between his mother and a Russian relative. The texts suggested Mr. Tsarnaev was interested in joining militant groups that Russia blames for attacks in the Caucasus region, according to U.S. officials briefed on the investigations.
U.S. officials call these text messages the most important in a series of missed signals between the two countries. One U.S. official characterized at least one of the text messages as generally discussing jihad, but without any specific mention of terrorism plans.
The U.S. officials say they learned about them roughly a week after the April 15 bombings. Several officials say such precise information would have led to a deeper examination of Mr. Tsarnaev, who died a few days after the bombing in a police confrontation. His brother and alleged accomplice remains in custody.
Read More: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324244304578475300856008018
Hokey Dokey Manny!
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)sheshe2
(83,323 posts)Yes they had warnings and Russia withheld strategic information. They were asked more than once and got effing crickets. Did you want Boston to jump down their throats on no concrete evidence? I thought you hated this NSA stuff yet you want them to respond without real evidence. Which is it Manny? You either like it or you do not. Or is it just damned if you do or damned if you do not.
Why do you bash America so? And Boston! And Obama!
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Interesting.
And *who* is the independent body that''s saying the *critical* stuff from the Russians didn't come until later?
P.S. - I'm not claiming that the Russian intelligence was mishandled. I don't know enough to know that. All I'm saying is that given that they can't stop a bombing when given a significant direct warning, it's unlikely that combing through reams of electronic darta will get them anything.
And, in fact, they've admitted (eventually) that it has gotten them nothing.
sheshe2
(83,323 posts)It will never matter what I say or what I may link to. Facts don't seem to matter.
The article states that significant info was left out and unanswered. You rail against the overreach of this administration, yet without all the facts that is what you seem to wish had been done. You can not have it both ways! Your mind has always been made up. It is always a negative fact for you.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)I'm skeptical, but open-minded.
But as to Spy On Everyone - yeah, unless some big new info comes out, my mind is made up. Probably everyone's is, at this point.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)that so many people in this world are so ignorant of history that they can see it happen again, right before their very eyes, in their own country, and call themselves "sensible" because they don't think it could ever happen again.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 21, 2014, 03:27 PM - Edit history (1)
...of a people who live in FEAR.
- Unfortunately. Because there really is nothing to fear at all.
[center][/center]
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Never before has such a large population willing given up their privacy rights. The very fact that you are posting on a public site means that you are being tracked. The ads are tracking you in order to supply relevent ads. I, myself, am part of several loyalty programs because they offer discounts. How are they able to offer these discounts one may ask? Because they are tracking my purchases and even have the right to sell that information to other outlets. I gave then that right when I signed up.
Your cell phone tracks your movements and your current location. That's how it is able to recommend restaurants, etc. "near me". You gave them that right when you signed up for the program. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Never before in the history of mankind have we had technology to invade privacy like we have today. This is uncharted territory.
I remember well the Bush Admin's intrusions - I was one of the most vocal against them. And guess what? We won! Sort of. It led to Congressional action, and new laws. Or have you forgotten 2008? The new laws did allow for data collection, BUT it placed it under the jurisdiction of the FISA courts. The metadata is tucked away securely in a database, with rigorous strictures for accessing it. If it so happens that the queries to this secure database reveals calls between American citizens, then the queries are to be reported immediately and only a Court Order allows further access.
It's not a perfect system by any stretch of the imagination. But it's better than it was. It can be even better, if we can dispense with these false accusations and look at the current laws objectively.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Since the NSA (government) is abusing our Constitutional freedoms, Snowden is a whistleblower for telling us that our own government is spying on us.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)DU can go back to being against government surveillance.
Your example is why my interest in politics diminishes each year.
K&R
Aerows
(39,961 posts)no matter who gets elected in 2016, whether it is a Democrat OR a Republican this shit will die down. I will work my ass off to make it a Democrat.
But yeah, we have some here that could give to shits about Law, Constitution, or Civil Liberties as long as their candidate holds office. That a candidate is infallible, as history has shown, a bad idea.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)democratic principles you will understand why, and you can just tell them to buzz off.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)And THAT.... is WAY worse.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)about the person they are labelling. Happens a lot here these days.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Because not everything released has been in the public interest...
Why has he refused to name names of those responsible for wrongdoing at the NSA?
Why is he so steadfast in his assertion that surveillance and data collection conducted by corporate America isn't a problem? (especially in light of Google's more unsavory recent practices)...
FWIW, I've never called Snowden a traitor, which implies some kind of intent and premeditation...He's much closer to a useful idiot -- a victim of circumstance and manipulation by unscrupulous people around him...That circus at the press conference showed once and for all that not only is Snowden no longer running the "Patriotic Whistleblower" show; he was *never* in control of it...
Aerows
(39,961 posts)for shielding law enforcement that use evidence that they shouldn't use to put together cases that put people away for 30 years? Is that suddenly fine? When the DEA, the FBI and the NSA conspire together to put small time criminals in jail, it isn't revealed to their defender OR the judge, is that fair?
There is more than one edge to this, and it cuts a lot of different ways than you might imagine at first glance.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)no "excuse" here...
Since nobody wants to address my question, I must continue to ask -- Who else other than Chinese intelligence could have possibly benefitted from the Huawei story? (to use an example) What purpose was served by leaking it?
For all the sensationalism and faux outrage over the "Eavesdropping on Merkel's cellphone" stories, why did I have to wait weeks for the *real* story to come out in German media about Merkel stubbornly ignoring her advisors and continuing to speak on an unsecured cell phone, along with the fact that the U.S. was only one of at least a half-dozen countries listening in?
I'm not saying he hasn't done some good things, but if Snowden can get all the praise in the world for the good, honorable things, then he deserves harsh criticism for the bad or highly questionable ones....
Aerows
(39,961 posts)you have long since denounced such practices, so that means no one can denounce anything else, either?
I denounce violations of the Constitution. I denounce people being jailed for decades due to misdemeanors.
Does that mean I can no longer denounce the NSA/CIA/DEA colluding to send more people to jail?
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 23, 2014, 04:48 PM - Edit history (1)
Team sports in politics is bad for democracy.
It means no one cares about the substance or the principles they purport to stand for, they just care if their team is "winning" and get very emotional when their team captain is criticized, even, no, especially, when warranted.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Thank you for pointing that out. It is a pernicious element in our community and our country.
The whole NSA program exists to make the world safe for wealthy private interests and their holdings.
US spooks work for multinational corporations and corporate ownership, not for us. We just pay the tab for their services, as dictated by corporate decree.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)for private interests.
Exactly, and that sums it up.
Progressive dog
(6,861 posts)he has not been indicted or accused (by the US government) of being a traitor.
His fan base excuses his violation of our laws by pretending that he has officially been accused of being a traitor. If they were so worried about the US Constitution, they would be telling Eddie to come home, stand trial, and vindicate himself. The problem, which Eddie is smart enough to recognize, is that courts have rules of evidence.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)that he revealed wrongdoing on President Obama's watch.
That is the number 1 problem with most of the "I hate Snowden" crowd.
The flip side is that if it happened under a Republican, you would be, Progressive Dog, howling for justice.
"Get a Democrat in office and we can fix all of this!"
I've been here before.
All of this will suddenly be abhorrent the day a Republican takes the executive office, and you will pretend that people weren't pissed when there WAS a Republican in office (Bush), pissed that it continued with a Democrat in office (Obama) and etc.
Progressive dog
(6,861 posts)why an American might not like a guy who stole from our government and fled to Russia. All we're asking is that he come home and stand trial for the crimes he has been accused of.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and I'm no "fan" of Snowden. I was opposed to this under Bush, and guess what? I'm opposed to it under Obama. At least I'm consistent.
If Romney was in the White House you and the rest of the crew would be screaming bloody murder. I know, because I can read DU2 archives as can anyone else.
Progressive dog
(6,861 posts)I believe in our system of government.
BTW What do DU archives have to do with Snowden?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and welcome to DU!
penultimate
(1,110 posts)of pogs and yugioh cards.... and police-spy states.
Obnoxious_One
(97 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 21, 2014, 09:10 PM - Edit history (1)
The man is hero for having the courage to reveal the criminal elements in the government.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and it is weaker folks that mock his courage.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)If you stated prior to January 20, 2009 that a Democrat in the White House would fix everything and would repeal the Patriot Act, I would have believed you back then.
The problem is that going forward, convincing anyone that a Democratic President is going to do anything differently than a Republican one has issues. Deep problems. Why? It is due to Obama's reluctance to end all of this bullshit surveillance state.
We need to actually change this. Not slowly. Not meekly. We need to DEFUND it, because money is the only thing that matters. If you yank food out of the mouths of children and the elderly just so you can spy on working people, you are the worst sort of government.
Mondavi
(176 posts)not Snowden.
2banon
(7,321 posts)my high school back in the 60's.