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Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:14 PM

 

Hey America! Don't like some law? Get together a couple hundred of your friends with guns!

The law won't be in effect any more so long as you and a couple hundred friends have guns and say you won't abide by the law!

Welcome to Galt's Gulch, where freedom reigns!

We're now livin' the Ayn Rand dream here in America!

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Reply Hey America! Don't like some law? Get together a couple hundred of your friends with guns! (Original post)
MohRokTah Apr 2014 OP
HooptieWagon Apr 2014 #1
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #2
HooptieWagon Apr 2014 #5
RedCappedBandit Apr 2014 #53
HooptieWagon Apr 2014 #152
ancianita Apr 2014 #150
HooptieWagon Apr 2014 #155
ancianita Apr 2014 #166
Cha Apr 2014 #194
ballyhoo Apr 2014 #165
Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #3
BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #4
BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #6
CJCRANE Apr 2014 #7
99Forever Apr 2014 #8
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #9
99Forever Apr 2014 #15
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #16
99Forever Apr 2014 #17
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #21
99Forever Apr 2014 #31
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #33
99Forever Apr 2014 #36
Aerows Apr 2014 #126
ballyhoo Apr 2014 #168
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #18
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #20
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #23
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #25
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #32
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #34
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #41
SCUBANOW Apr 2014 #51
Brigid Apr 2014 #54
snappyturtle Apr 2014 #115
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #131
snappyturtle Apr 2014 #162
ancianita Apr 2014 #157
snappyturtle Apr 2014 #164
ancianita Apr 2014 #167
snappyturtle Apr 2014 #171
ancianita Apr 2014 #172
Paladin Apr 2014 #71
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #125
Lizzie Poppet Apr 2014 #202
Logical Apr 2014 #68
Curmudgeoness Apr 2014 #112
Logical Apr 2014 #161
CTyankee Apr 2014 #10
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #11
CTyankee Apr 2014 #12
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #14
Electric Monk Apr 2014 #26
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #27
ancianita Apr 2014 #174
Boreal Apr 2014 #28
Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #128
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #130
BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #138
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #142
BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #148
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #191
Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #149
ancianita Apr 2014 #175
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #192
Boreal Apr 2014 #136
Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #154
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #30
ZombieHorde Apr 2014 #108
hack89 Apr 2014 #107
CTyankee Apr 2014 #110
hack89 Apr 2014 #111
CTyankee Apr 2014 #114
hack89 Apr 2014 #117
CTyankee Apr 2014 #119
hack89 Apr 2014 #121
CTyankee Apr 2014 #122
hack89 Apr 2014 #124
CTyankee Apr 2014 #129
agbdf Apr 2014 #159
KansDem Apr 2014 #13
TwilightGardener Apr 2014 #19
Dwayne Hicks Apr 2014 #24
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #29
TwilightGardener Apr 2014 #35
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #37
TwilightGardener Apr 2014 #39
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #42
TwilightGardener Apr 2014 #44
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #45
TwilightGardener Apr 2014 #47
Dwayne Hicks Apr 2014 #38
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #40
agbdf Apr 2014 #137
gopiscrap Apr 2014 #193
ancianita Apr 2014 #176
Logical Apr 2014 #69
Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #43
TwilightGardener Apr 2014 #46
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #48
TwilightGardener Apr 2014 #49
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #50
TwilightGardener Apr 2014 #52
ancianita Apr 2014 #181
agbdf Apr 2014 #205
Boreal Apr 2014 #22
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #55
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #56
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #63
former9thward Apr 2014 #70
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #76
former9thward Apr 2014 #78
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #81
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #74
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #79
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #82
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #87
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #88
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #90
IronGate Apr 2014 #91
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #92
IronGate Apr 2014 #95
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #132
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #94
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #96
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #98
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #100
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #102
tazkcmo Apr 2014 #106
Hoyt Apr 2014 #57
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #58
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #60
sweetapogee Apr 2014 #93
LittleBlue Apr 2014 #59
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #61
LittleBlue Apr 2014 #64
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #72
LittleBlue Apr 2014 #83
BlueStreak Apr 2014 #173
former9thward Apr 2014 #75
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #77
former9thward Apr 2014 #85
ancianita Apr 2014 #185
IronGate Apr 2014 #86
Texasgal Apr 2014 #104
ancianita Apr 2014 #178
840high Apr 2014 #180
Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #187
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #101
Hoyt Apr 2014 #123
Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #145
SevenSixtyTwo Apr 2014 #62
Union Scribe Apr 2014 #65
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #66
IronGate Apr 2014 #73
IronGate Apr 2014 #67
oneofthe99 Apr 2014 #127
Savannahmann Apr 2014 #80
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #84
Savannahmann Apr 2014 #89
PoliticAverse Apr 2014 #158
Savannahmann Apr 2014 #186
Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #183
Boreal Apr 2014 #97
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #99
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #133
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #103
Boreal Apr 2014 #109
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #113
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #120
Boreal Apr 2014 #182
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #190
2naSalit Apr 2014 #196
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #105
ZombieHorde Apr 2014 #116
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #118
politicman Apr 2014 #134
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #135
Moses2SandyKoufax Apr 2014 #140
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #146
Moses2SandyKoufax Apr 2014 #156
BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #160
politicman Apr 2014 #141
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #143
Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #147
politicman Apr 2014 #151
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #153
JJChambers Apr 2014 #139
politicman Apr 2014 #144
ancianita Apr 2014 #163
politicman Apr 2014 #169
ancianita Apr 2014 #170
DashOneBravo Apr 2014 #177
Taitertots Apr 2014 #179
Post removed Apr 2014 #184
AnalystInParadise Apr 2014 #188
villager Apr 2014 #189
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #195
MohRokTah Apr 2014 #197
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #198
maddezmom Apr 2014 #201
AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #199
Lady Freedom Returns Apr 2014 #200
CFLDem Apr 2014 #203
LynnTTT Apr 2014 #204

Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:17 PM

1. OWS take note. nt

 

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:18 PM

2. Read the fine print.

 

Offer only valid to right wing white people.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:28 PM

5. Wrong. Offer only valid to heavily-armed group.

 

The Government no longer works for us, nor does it protect our Constitutional rights, such as peaceful assembly. We are very near the point where defense of our Constitutional rights must be undertaken by ourselves. The Govt, and its militarized police forces, serve the interests of corporations and the 0.1% Elite.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:34 PM

53. Yeah right.

If a bunch of heavily armed non-whites showed up in Zucotti park they sure as shit wouldn't get their way.

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Response to RedCappedBandit (Reply #53)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:51 PM

152. How did unarmed unions do before acquiring mafia muscle?

 

Hint: not well.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:50 PM

150. Beg to differ. I've seen how well the Bureau of Land Management maintains publicly owned lands out

West -- for preventing forest fires and preserving wildlife -- and they're a good department, manned by Americans like you and me. They work hard out in the West, and it's not uncommon for many individuals out there to think they can squat and help themselves to whatever public lands they want. These self-styled 'victim' vigilantes who want to start a 'land war' against the feds are in the wrong. Their interests do not in any way trump the larger public interest.

The fact that the elites are trying to get Congress to allow them buy up all the national parks for fracking and other extraction industries they own should be one good reason you'd support at least a project to put solar panels into lands that can help more Nevadans than does one millionaire cattleman with plenty of his own land to use. At least this project produces energy for the many.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #150)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:56 PM

155. How are we differing?

 

I'm merely pointing out the Govt, right or wrong, backed down when facing a heavily-armed large group. Would the govt have backed down if Occupy had showed up instead of an armed militia?

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #155)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:28 PM

166. The BLM isn't a security group, doesn't have the authority or firepower to stand up to guns. It's

interior land maintenance department that depends on the good will of citizens to respect publicly held land. This is about how the BLM wants to handle the conflict, not the feds.

If the governor asks the feds to come in, then this whole attempt to strong arm BLM would go down differently. But what's happened doesn't prove that armed resistance is either right or scares off the government.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #150)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 10:35 PM

194. Thank you for your post, anicanita.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:26 PM

165. Well said. And that's where we are. And if we don't get seriously

 

1955 mean, we are done for. I'd bet a good piece of change that major cities will get hit with drones should too many of the Bundy Brouhahas take place. I think what happened between the ranchers and the Feds was huge.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:18 PM

3. That's what I got out of the whole ordeal.

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:19 PM

4. Lol

I mean yeah, this has always been true.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:34 PM

6. Although to be fair

The federal government will likely freeze his assets.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:41 PM

7. It also helps to have Fox News on your side.

Hannity's Dangerous Game Touting A Rogue Rancher And His Violent Threats

Fox News' Sean Hannity is increasingly -- and dangerously -- taking on the role of PR agent for a Nevada rancher defying the federal government with violent threats.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/11/hannitys-dangerous-game-touting-a-rogue-rancher/198864

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:46 PM

8. You really believe that this moran's stunt was worthy of...

... the loss of human lives?

Well then, it would seem that both you and he have the same kind and level of mentality. No shots fired seems a very much more desirable outcome than what you advocate.

Let all of idiot NRA badasses disperse back to their own "compounds," then go in and arrest the clown. Lock his ass up and throw away the key.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #8)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:49 PM

9. You really think letting hundreds of gun toting terrorists believe the threat of violence

 

is all it takes to avoid fallowing the law is a good thing?

The loss of human lives now that these terrorists have been emboldened will be hundreds, if not thousands of times greater than failing to cave in to their violent threats now.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:55 PM

15. These jackasses were spoiling for a confrontation.

They didn't get it. And their lives are about to become MUCH more complicated. There's more than one way to skin a dipshit.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:57 PM

16. IF by "more complicated" you mean Bundy gets the money

 

and continues to illegally use the federal land for grazing, I guess you're right.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #16)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:59 PM

17. Yeah, that's what "I meant."




Good one, dude.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:07 PM

21. News flash

 

A BLM agent acting under color of authority reaches an agreement with Bundy that is witnessed by Gillespie.

That rises to the level of contract.

Bundy cannot be touched now.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:14 PM

31. Thank you Judge MohRokTah.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:16 PM

33. Wait and see. eom

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #33)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:19 PM

36. Nope, I want to see right now!



Really troubles you that there wasn't a bloody firefight, does it MohRokTah?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:09 PM

126. Or embolden

 

a dipshit...

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:33 PM

168. Just the opposite. Their lives are to become much more

 

evil and aggressive. They'll all end up as ready as the more fierce militias, and I would bet money is now pouring into them from all kinds of types. The next confrontation the government better be ready to do something besides retreat because the other side will be ready for action.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:59 PM

18. Settle down, Francis.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:06 PM

20. Condecension as ad hominem.

 

Fascinating.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:09 PM

23. You're running around waving your arms in panic that thousands will be killed.

An unserious statement deserves an unserious response.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #23)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:09 PM

25. Embolden violent terrorists.

 

Violence ensues.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:14 PM

32. Embolden violent authoritarianism and despotism ensues.

People before power.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #32)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:17 PM

34. Then we have nothing further to discuss.

 

It's obvious you and I cannot agree and I will no longer take the bait.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #34)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:22 PM

41. The civil rights movement was based on civil disobedience.

If people want a law they must understand that they are setting the circumstances wherein they want the government to employ lethal force. Decide what you are willing to kill for. A few hundred cattle on hundreds of thousands of acres of land isn't worth a fight, blind obedience to authoritarianism notwithstanding.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #41)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:32 PM

51. This!!!!

 

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #41)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:35 PM

54. Yep, you pick your battles.

That's what this boils down to.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #54)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:50 PM

115. These are words to live by....at least they once were. But I've changed my mind of

late as I've seen our freedoms eroded. I don't believe we can give an inch anymore. While I do not advocate for violence, I have come to the conclusion that meeting like with like, especially in this instance, MAY have signaled to TPTB that people are tired of being pushed around. Let's not forget all the kettling and harassment (free speech cages) that took place during the political conventions in 2008 and the occurrences of brute force during the peaceful protests of OWS. If we want to keep peddling the Home of the Brave and the Land of the Free mantra, does the gov't or its minion subsidiary law enforcement agencies such as the BLM dare to show the world it attacks its citizenry? I hope not. imho

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #115)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:17 PM

131. Like my signature says --

Be the Jell-O balloon cat.

You can't nail Jell-O to a wall. You can't squeeze a balloon. You can't herd cats.

We live in a nation that has 51,000 pages of tax law -- and that's just taxes. For all practical purposes they may as well be publishing laws in secret and then prosecuting people for breaking their secret laws. And in those secret laws are carve-outs for the highest bidders and even then only the richest can afford to obey they law or exploit them to their advantage. And that's just taxes.

Cronies are rewarded. Small businesses and families are being destroyed. Crooks go unpunished while the people are susceptible to becoming criminals even if all they want to do is live their lives peaceably.

We have come to the point where we MUST simply walk away from the dictates they impose upon us. Not violently -- because that's not what Jell-O balloon cats are about -- but we must look tem straight in the eye and demand to know what, exactly, they plan to do with 300 million restive citizens.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #131)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:15 PM

162. I'm not advocating violence but letting the 'authorities' know when pushed, shoved,

tased and threatened we too will take a stand. Let them think about it. We out number them...and we are restive. Who's to blame for that?

I agree that we must walk away...it's the best...but let's make them think about what it is they're doing to us. All we're doing is reversing the tables.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #115)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:59 PM

157. If by "we" you mean you and me as taxpayer owners of that land, hell yeah, not one inch to squatters

The BLM waited patiently twenty-plus years for this moocher of public land to move his cattle back onto his own land. I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned, he and his band's "issues" are indefensible. He's made his millions off our land while refusing to pay our grazing rights lease fees; so now that he, his entitled Republican gun-totin' vigilante thugs and their FOX echo chamber can cry me a riviera. He's more of a leech than Republicans claim the poor are.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #157)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:24 PM

164. I certainly did not. I'd like to see some sources for Bundy having made millions of

dollars. He owes the money...yes. He was and is taking a stand. As an American citizen he has that right. Will he lose big time...probably. Satisfied?

Along with the validation of his income please forward what the band's (?) "issues" are that you find indefensible.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #164)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:31 PM

167. Yep, satisfied. And I agree with you. This vigilante band thinks this is his land. That "issue,"

along with their self-styled right to bear arms for some rich squatter in the area. That issue. If they're going to do battle, they'd better be legally right. That issue.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #167)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:42 PM

171. Excuse me. My guess would be they didn't like the tactics of the BLM against

the peaceful protesters armed with call phones and a camera. I don't think arms were to protect Bundy but themselves in a protest situation. If legally carried they have that right, period. Still waiting to hear how Bundy amassed his fortune.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #171)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:48 PM

172. This guy owns a ranch. He owns double the number of cattle the BLM allows on that acreage. Cattle.

No one who owns cattle is poor. No one who owns a ranch across generations is poor. No one who lawyers up regularly to fight to use public land instead of paying for grazing rights is poor. http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Order-US-v.-Bundy-7-9-13.pdf

Still waiting for you to support the greater public interest in all this.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:01 PM

71. My, my, my. 25% of your posts in Gun Control/RKBA.


Imagine my lack of surprise......

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Response to Paladin (Reply #71)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:06 PM

125. "Imagine my lack of surprise......"

Imagine my lack of concern.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #71)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 06:55 AM

202. A "poisoning the well" fallacy.

 

Imagine my lack of surprise...

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #8)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:59 PM

68. He wins this one. And they now know to bring 100s more to the next showdown. Stupid to back off. nt

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #68)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:43 PM

112. That's the truth....as well as adding 100's more ranchers

to the "we aren't paying to graze" club.

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Response to Curmudgeoness (Reply #112)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:14 PM

161. Great point! n-t

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:49 PM

10. where are our devout 2A supporters?

come out, come out, wherever you are...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:50 PM

11. These idiots have been talking about "second amendment solutions" for years.

 

It seems they knew just threatening violence is all it takes to overthrow the rule of law.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:52 PM

12. funny that they ain't here, isn't it?

I mean, don't they have a reason to defend the insurrectionists?

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:53 PM

14. All ti takes to fight a federal agent is a few assholes with guns.

 

It really pisses me off that the gun assholes win by threatening gun violence.

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #26)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:11 PM

27. It worked for the milita terrorists in Nevada. eom

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #27)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:57 PM

174. Not really. The BLM just doesn't fight trespassers. They take them to court, is all. This is theater

that in no way shows up the feds to be inconsistent or powerless. The feds are letting the BLM handle this their way, is all. They don't care about the PR like these chest-beating gun nuts do.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:12 PM

28. Me too

 

It really pisses me off that the gun assholes win by threatening gun violence.


Cops have murdered more innocent people in the last decade than all of the US troops killed in Iraq. Not to mention the thousands of family dogs blown away for shits and giggles by these psychopaths hiding behind "the law". The sooner all US, state and local LE are disarmed, the sooner I'll feel safe.

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Response to Boreal (Reply #28)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:13 PM

128. And then they'll be replaced by right wing militias

And things will be so much better.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #128)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:14 PM

130. This is what we're in for.

 

Right Wing Militias will end up being what passes for "law" in this country. Don't obey them, you get shot down in the streets.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #130)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:39 PM

138. Want to get really scared?

Look up Hans-Hermann Hoppe. He is the cutting edge in anarcho-capitalist ideology and is being secretly adopted by the right wing. He specifically advocates for bands of like-minded rightists using force of arms and backed by corporate power to instate a kind of corporate feudalism in which local communities of right wingers dictate the laws based on their own personal conception of what ought to be allowed in a society.

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Response to BlindTiresias (Reply #138)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:42 PM

142. Isn't that the nutbag that claims Milton Friedman was a socialist?

 

I mean seriously, I think he's the nutbag that actually called the University of Chicago school of economic thought "socialism".

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #142)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:48 PM

148. More common in the right than you might think

Friedman and Hayek both advocated for a negative income tax or basic income system, and have been all but abandoned by the contemporary right wing. You can definitely see the transition in the right wing follow the shift in anarcho-capitalism with resurgent right in the 70's and 80's following people like Friedman and Hayek fairly closely with the modern shift being a distinctly anti-democracy eliminationist one in the model of Hoppe, Rothbard, and Molyneux.

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Response to BlindTiresias (Reply #148)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 10:31 PM

191. And most people around this country have no idea of any of this

 

If they win, this country is truly going to be up a shit creek, more like Mariana's Trench, without a paddle

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Response to BlindTiresias (Reply #138)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:49 PM

149. I can definitely see that scenario emerging.

Especially after today's events.

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Response to BlindTiresias (Reply #138)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:58 PM

175. Great. Corporate "death squads." Where in hell are the lawyers.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #175)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 10:32 PM

192. This is all those cute birdies we let loose coming home to roost

 

Right Wing militias are very common in places like Colombia, they used to be in Chile and Argentina Their favorite targets, reporters, students, union activists, and intellectuals.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #128)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:35 PM

136. Millions of Americans

 

are armed, including some DUers, but it's cops who are on a killing spree, terrorizing families and communities, murdering family pets, murdering innocent people, beating innocent people to a pulp. So, no, I'm not worried about militias, I'm worried about the psychopaths running around killing people and getting away with it. Which militia murdered Miriam Carey? Which militia beat Kelly Thomas to death? What militia shot at a scared mom with a car full of kids? What militia broke into in an innocent family's home and shot their two family dogs who were in crates? Who was the militia that murdered a homeless man for camping? What militia murdered a handcuffed teenager sitting a squad car? What militia shot an old man in a nursing home as he leaned his walker? I could go on and on and on and on.

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Response to Boreal (Reply #136)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:56 PM

154. I won't argue with you.

If you think the RW militias will be kinder and gentler, then more power to you.

I don't think you and I reasonably have anything to say to each other.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:12 PM

30. The Department of Education has a SWAT team to deal with the

white collar crime of loan fraud.


It really pisses me off that the gun assholes win by threatening gun violence.


That is the basis of ALL law.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:35 PM

108. The US doesn't have rule of law.

Torturers can brag about their activities openly and nothing happens to them.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:33 PM

107. I support the 2A - I do not support Bundy or his dipshit supporters.

Why would I?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #107)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:39 PM

110. then what do you think should be done to stop him?

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #110)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:42 PM

111. Wait to the situation calms down

And then he and the militia folks can be quietly arrested. I oppose a violent solution - it is not worth killing people over.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #111)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:48 PM

114. I agree, no violence. But it is nice to hear your solution to this guy...

maybe a quiet overnight in a local motel, then a gentle arrest, followed by a nice arraignment after brunch and a little chit chat among the lawyers, then the gun folks go home all rested and happy...cool beans, bro...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #114)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:52 PM

117. Please don't put words in my mouth

He should have the full force of the law directed at him - he must be made an example of. But in a non-violent way.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #117)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:57 PM

119. well, fine. That's nice, too. I approve.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #119)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:03 PM

121. I can't tell you how much that means to me

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Response to hack89 (Reply #121)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:04 PM

122. well, my parents told me to be polite...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #122)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:06 PM

124. You are getting better at it. Nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #124)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:13 PM

129. I'm a feisty third generation Texan so be advised about my nice-ness...

I live in CT because it suits me better, but my roots are all Southern and Texan...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:09 PM

159. 2A is the law of the land until repealed or modified.

 

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled, in District of Columbia v. Heller, that the Second Amendment applies to individuals and not just those serving in a government militia. However, the courts have consistently allowed for reasonable regulation of gun possession and gun sales. The way to get around the Second Amendment is to repeal it. I have never had an interest in owning or firing a gun but, until there is a change, debating the validity of the Second Amendment is just as futile as debating those of the First, Third, Fourth - and so on.

The reasonable regulations of firearms allowed under the Second Amendment are to encourage responsible gun ownership. I sincerely doubt that all of the militia members who showed up to support Bundy had responsible motives
in bringing their guns.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:52 PM

13. Count me out...

I don't think I could kick dogs...

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:01 PM

19. I'm confused--why can't this guy be arrested?

And all of his backwoods-inbred militia nutter friends too?

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #19)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:09 PM

24. They can

 

And they will be.

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Response to Dwayne Hicks (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:12 PM

29. Bundy won't be arrested.

 

If a BLM agent acting under color of authority reached an agreement with Bundy that was witnessed by Gillespie as has been reported, that rises to the level of contract and Bundy cannot be touched.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:18 PM

35. It's up to an agent on site to decide whether someone will be

held on federal charges (such as threatening federal agents)? I have never heard of this. Wouldn't the FBI get involved?

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #35)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:20 PM

37. This entire thing has been a civil matter from the beginning

 

If an agent came to an agreement over how to proceed in the civil matter, the matter is closed.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #37)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:21 PM

39. Armed resistance against agents of the government isn't a civil matter.

Otherwise who the fuck would ever pay grazing fees again? Who the fuck would ever pay their taxes?

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #39)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:23 PM

42. Show where Bundy himself was involved in armed resistence.

 

Some miliita assholes threatened armed resistance, but Bundy himself never did.

This guy knew what he was doing all along, he's getting what he wanted all along and if anybody pays for it, it will not be him.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #42)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:25 PM

44. I guess we'll find out if federal charges are brought. I think he will go to jail.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #44)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:25 PM

45. I think a few of the militia assholes will be arrested in a few weeks, maybe.

 

Bundy gets what he wanted, though.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #45)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:27 PM

47. Oh, we'll have to see.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:21 PM

38. What?

 

HE openly threatened violence against lawful federal agents. That is a class c felony with a 5 year mandatory prison term.

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Response to Dwayne Hicks (Reply #38)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:22 PM

40. Actually, there were no direct threats made by Bundy.

 

Some of the militia assholes posted direct threats online, but Bundy himself never made any direct threats.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:38 PM

137. Yes, I agree

 

It certainly does look to be a fait accompli. Good riddance to this whole ridiculous affair. Bundy and his supporters never deserved the attention showered upon them by mainstream media. By the way, because this was a national news story, I do believe the President was not only briefed on the standoff but, issued the stand down order. I think he chose wisely to call off the BLM agents. So little was to be gained and the potential for tragedy was real. The Waco incident occurred in 1993 and, the following year, it still was weighing on the minds of a significant number who went to the polls. For those of you too young to remember, 1994 was almost as bad for us as 2010 was.

This year, we are in a struggle to retain control of the U.S. Senate and the last thing we need is another Waco style disaster. Good work President Obama!

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Response to agbdf (Reply #137)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 10:33 PM

193. Welcome to DU

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:03 PM

176. Nope. He can be arrested for defying this court order which overrides some witnessed "talk."

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Response to Dwayne Hicks (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:00 PM

69. When? After 21 more years? nt

 

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #19)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:24 PM

43. They've reached an agreement with him.

As mentioned above, that reaches the level of contract that I guess supersedes any relevant court orders.

Myself, I would have employed siege tactics. Let Bundy and his buddies eat cows until they're gone and then surrender.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #43)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:26 PM

46. Did they make either overt or implied threats of violence or present weapons?

Did they block federal agents from BLM land? If they did, I can't see how any "agreement" would stand.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #46)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:28 PM

48. Do not confuse the militia assholes for Bundy.

 

Bundy wasn't out there threatening violence.

He let others do his dirty work and only those others could ever be charged with anything, if at all.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #48)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:29 PM

49. Conspiracy to commit.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #49)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:31 PM

50. The feds would have to prove prior contact

 

It was right wing media that fanned the flames on this one and prompted the milita assholes to take action. Bundy didn't to the best of my knowledge, contact any of these militia assholes.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #50)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:33 PM

52. I think they will find he directed some of these clowns, enlisted their help, fed them,

communicated with them, something. There is no way the federal government will ever let this stand, or we'll have anarchy. They'll wait for everyone to go home, from whatever crapholes they came from, and then arrest him later.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #43)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:11 PM

181. This isn't about contracts. This is about the original BLM permit. Permit. This was reported two

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #19)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 10:56 AM

205. Arrested on what charge?

 

For willfully obstructing a court order he might and probably should be picked up for contempt of court. That's what I think should happen.

Also, referring to the protesters as "backwoods-inbred" is not productive. These are mostly low income people who would benefit most from our party's programs. If African Americans voted 90 percent Republican, instead of with us, would you also use the "N-word" to describe them. The problem with these types of attacks is that through design or otherwise, it dehumanizes other human being. Let's leave that conduct to the other side - they are masters of it.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:08 PM

22. Worked in Kiev nt

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:38 PM

55. Curious...

Where did you get your law degree?

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #55)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:41 PM

56. Curious...

 

where do you get your news?

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #56)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:48 PM

63. From you

"A BLM agent acting under color of authority reaches an agreement with Bundy that is witnessed by Gillespie.

That rises to the level of contract.

Bundy cannot be touched now."

I'm assuming you're a lawyer and have a degree so I was curious from which law school you graduated. I'm in need of a good lawyer...

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #63)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:01 PM

70. As a lawyer please do not get your legal help from arm chair DU 'lawyers'.

Including me although I am not presently in an armchair. You would do much better just throwing yourself on the mercy of the court.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #70)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:03 PM

76. lol ty

I hope you're not charging me for this! Can I get a free initial consult here?

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #76)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:05 PM

78. Yes, as long as you know it is worth what you are being charged ...

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Response to former9thward (Reply #78)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:06 PM

81. No problem

After all, you get what you pay for!

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #63)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:03 PM

74. I have an understanding of contract law.

 

The only argument the federal government could possibly use was the contract was made under duress.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #74)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:05 PM

79. An "understanding" huh?

"A BLM agent acting under color of authority reaches an agreement with Bundy that is witnessed by Gillespie.

That rises to the level of contract.

Bundy cannot be touched now."


May as well have said "I'm not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."





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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #79)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:06 PM

82. That is how contract law works

 

One need not sign a document to be contractually bound to an agreement. One need only agree, and have the agreement witnessed, to be contractually bound.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #82)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:11 PM

87. See post 79. n/t

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #87)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:12 PM

88. See post 82. eom

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #88)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:18 PM

90. You are funny.

You make this statement
"A BLM agent acting under color of authority reaches an agreement with Bundy that is witnessed by Gillespie.

That rises to the level of contract.

Bundy cannot be touched now."

and then offer your "understanding of contract law" as your credentials to provide credibility. I would no more allow someone with an understanding of anatomy to do surgery on me than believe your conclusion that "Bundy cannot be touched now.". I'm sure he can and will be "touched" and mean while a potentially violent and ugly incident has been defused.

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #90)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:20 PM

91. I'm really trying to understand why he's so eager for bloodshed?

 

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Response to IronGate (Reply #91)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:21 PM

92. Maybe

he has an understanding of mortuary sciences?

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #92)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:22 PM

95. Could be.

 

That would make sense.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #91)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:21 PM

132. I don't know but I'm pretty sure of one thing --

he won't be anywhere near it.

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #90)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:22 PM

94. Wife is an attorney

 

And my job involves support of contract negotiation for Fortune 500 companies as I am a management consultant.

If I did not have a deep understanding of contract law, I would not have my job.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #94)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:23 PM

96. Good for you both.

I'm glad to hear you are both gainfully employed.

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #96)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:26 PM

98. It's good to be employed.

 

My job is a soul sucking pit of sickening garbage, though, because the contracts I am involved with involve third party outsource agreements.

Five more years and I'm out, though, if I can make it without making myself sick.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #98)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:28 PM

100. Good luck to you.

NO bs or snark.

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Response to tazkcmo (Reply #100)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:29 PM

102. Thanks

 

You cannot imagine how badly I want out of this job.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #102)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:33 PM

106. Sure I can. I hate your job already!

I've refused offers of employment from scum sucking, predatory, ruthless companies and I have a job now that I hate with the heat a million suns and will be putting in my one week notice tomorrow because I found a job with a local company that has a soul.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:42 PM

57. This is what happens when we allow a bunch of right wing haters to arm up.

It's only going to get worse.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:43 PM

58. PRecisely

 

So long as the guns are out there, the gun assholes will use the threat of gun violence in a terroristic way to get their political will.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:44 PM

60. Yep. The BLM should be disarmed.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:21 PM

93. right

It would be like another Matewan, West Virginia.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:44 PM

59. The "never back down" mentality got us Ruby Ridge and Waco. I'm glad the gov backed down

 

An issue over cattle grazing isn't worth the lives of hundreds of people.

Keep things in perspective. Violence isn't the answer here.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #59)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:45 PM

61. I beg to differ, violence WAS the answer here.

 

And the violent terrorists won.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #61)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:49 PM

64. Hundreds or thousands would have died

 

senselessly. Better to let them cool off.

It's really not worth starting a small war over something as stupid as cattle grazing. You kill them and they become anti-government martyrs.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #64)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:01 PM

72. there were maybe 3 hundred armed terrorists.

 

By not taking a stand, the terrorists have won and will now be even more violent.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #72)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:08 PM

83. Aaaaand that's why you're not making these decisions

 

Do you know how much carnage 300 armed people can cause? You may thirst for blood but most people don't.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #64)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:51 PM

173. This administration is playing it smart. No Janet Renos. No Martyrs

 

They have already hurt Bundy badly. They can lay back, hit him some more in the courts, let the hotheads run out of money, then come back in and finish the job in a month or two. The last thing they want to do is turn a deadbeat asshole into a right-wing martyr.

This is smart. They are playing the long game.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #61)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:03 PM

75. Thank goodness you are not in charge of anything.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #75)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:03 PM

77. So you disagree that the threat of the use of violence was how the terrorists won?

 

What color is the sky in your world?

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #77)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:10 PM

85. My sky is full of colors.

That is why I love AZ. Waco and Ruby Ridge were disasters. The federal government recognizes that. It is a known fact that Waco is what sent McVeigh over the edge. The cows aren't hurting anybody. The practices of the BLM do not have a good reputation in the West. They need to take a close look at those and move on.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #85)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:25 PM

185. Not necessarily so. New Mexico citizens I've met in Albuquerque and Silver City speak well of BLM.

It's not about the cows. It's about their owners.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #77)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:10 PM

86. Well, we know what color the sky is in your world.

 

Red, as in the color of blood.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #77)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:33 PM

104. I think more people are worried

about getting food on the table to feed their families. Sorry, priorities and all that.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #61)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:05 PM

178. That's PR. That's not how it's really going to go down.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #61)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:09 PM

180. Violence is never the answer.

 

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Response to 840high (Reply #180)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:29 PM

187. It was this time. n/t

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #59)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:28 PM

101. In this case, that decision will come back to hunt all of us

 

Because all you need to do is threaten violence.

Oh and endangered species is not just cows. There is far more to this than grazing. But I guess that is fine, since who cares about other species?

Sorry, but I can see how many ways this will come back to hunt us as a nation. You think Bundy is alone? I know there are at least ten of that type in my local back country. They just got a free card. All you need to do is get our friends to come along armed, and walla the feds will back down! This will cause more of these incidents, not less.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #59)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:05 PM

123. Yeah, racist gun trafficker Weaver hid behind his wife and kids. Feds gave

racist fun trafficker plenty of time to walk out. Instead, Weaver sent his kid out to murder an agent. Weaver, his love for Ayran Nation, and choice to hide behind his family rather than give up peacefully, caused Ruby Ridge.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #59)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:44 PM

145. It is and it worked.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:45 PM

62. You guys aren't really

 

picturing a bunch of NRA hillbillies up on the berm sitting up on their 1960's pickup trucks with long guns are you? These are very wealthy people working the system and apparently won. Nothing unusual here. The media makes it out to be a cowboys and feds gunfight but that's not the case. This one is all about money, power and politics.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:51 PM

65. Your posts emit an unsettling aura of disappointment

that this didn't end up in an armed confrontation.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:55 PM

66. My posts are due to a disappointment

 

that armed terrorists now dictate what the federal government can and cannot do.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #66)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:01 PM

73. Oh bull.

 

The BLM backed off because cooler heads (not you) determined that an armed confrontation with the real possibility of loss of life on both sides wasn't worth some cattle grazing on public land.
Get real and quit frothing at the mouth for bloodshed.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:58 PM

67. I'm trying to understand why he is so eager for a shootout.

 

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:09 PM

127. You noticed that also

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:05 PM

80. Do you remember Elian Gonzales?

 

Because if you had your way, there would have been a war in Miami instead of the achievement of the goal.

Let's review what happened in Miami shall we? The Federal Government de-escalated the confrontation and then retrieved the boy with zero casualties. Mission accomplished, and with no dead or injured. A brilliant use of strategic vision.

If you were in charge, the headlines on Sunday would have been about the American Tienanmen Square massacre. Thankfully that did not happen.

Force is best used as a scalpel, slicing as little as possible. You would use it as a sledgehammer bashing your way in. So let's play what if?

The use of the sledgehammer approach at Waco and Ruby Ridge was the justification behind the bombing of Oklahoma City and the bombing of the Olympic Park. In other words, much as we are relearning in the war on terror bashing people inspires more to resist. You never see Elian Gonzales as a poster child for Federal Abuses. You would give them the Range War they want. I wonder why?

Are you so obtuse as to believe that bashing people and killing them makes the victims anything but martyrs? Are you so immature as to believe that gunfights and maiming and death are cool? Even if Federal Authorities had won, it would have instigated more resistance instead of less. Republicans would have had a massive GOTV campaign. Thankfully the people in power are not so obtuse nor as immature. They are looking for the strategic victory, not a tactical win that dooms the nation and the party.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #80)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:08 PM

84. The federal government was NOT bashing people

 

The BLM was carrying out its court ordered authority.

Armed terrorists were threatening violence.

The terrorists won.

That's how it went down, now rightwing terrorists nationwide are emboldened and matters will only get worse.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #84)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:15 PM

89. The court ordered the surrender of Elian Gonzales too.

 

But there wiser heads prevailed and carried out the order wisely. Would you have preferred tanks in Miami to contain the riots? I honestly hope you are never in the position to make a decision like this. Because your Pattonesque grease the treds of our tanks with their guts mentality would lead to a massive public outrage and civil unrest.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #89)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:02 PM

158. Guys with guns came and got Elian...

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #158)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:27 PM

186. I never said they didn't.

 

I said that the government de-escalated the situation instead of attempting to go through the protestors.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #80)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:21 PM

183. Yes, I remember it very well.

The government used overwhelming force, and Elian was siezed by heavily armed men. They were quick and efficient, and got the boy away from the kidnappers with no bloodshed. And yes, they did use Elian as a poster child.

What they did not do was simply back off and let the kidnappers have their way, as the BLM seems to be doing in this instance.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:26 PM

97. You sure are bloodthirsty, OP

 

Maybe you should be a cop.



Edit: personal remark removed. I stand corrected!

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Response to Boreal (Reply #97)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:27 PM

99. Ad hominems.

 

The last resort of one with no argument.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #99)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:27 PM

133. said the guy running around claiming terrorists are going to kill thousands.

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Response to Boreal (Reply #97)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:31 PM

103. I am sure glad I do not do alerts

 

but since you are new... that is a personal attack.

Just a heads up

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #103)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:38 PM

109. I guess you're right

 

I don't understand the desire for bloodshed but I'll edit the post.

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Response to Boreal (Reply #109)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:45 PM

113. It is not a desire for bloodshed

 

I cover rural areas, and I get exactly where the OP is coming from. The old saying, give them an inch and they will take a mile comes to mind.

Of the top of my head I can think of ten folks in my back country that are getting the exact wrong message on this one. So this has the potential of leading to more of these incidents, not less.

It is truly hard rock, and hard place. Ruby Ridge is part of the mythology, but so is the we will fight the damn Feds, who are extremely evil, every time we have a chance. Well, from their POV, they just won. That will embolden them. Ruby Ridge, they did not win.

And trust me, as a former paramedic I abhor violence. This is way out of area of coverage and I sent it to my editor since this is one of those that can have unintended consequences where we travel.

It is also quite a bit of urban vs rural. I live in an urban setting, and most of my neighbors do not really get the danger of the far right hate groups (not just militia) that are part of quite a bit of the rural landscape (and to be fair my local beach bum community}

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #113)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:59 PM

120. Too bad posts cannot be recommended

 

Yours was truly eloquent while being explicitly informative.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #113)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:16 PM

182. Well, sorry but

 

I cannot sympathize with anything you've said. I'm an old school liberal and I oppose heavy handed, authoritarian armed force. I'm also a Gerry Spence fan and I followed ruby Ridge closely. That was entrapment followed by murder. I have no idea what "mythology" you're talking about. I also don't know what you mean about "your" back country. Do you work for the BLM?

I agree that there is an urban v. rural dynamic at play. While I'm not a farmer or rancher, and I don't approve of killing animals for food, I'm sympathetic to a man and his family who only know this way of life and I believe it is threatened, just as small farming has been.

I've seen remarks in these threads about how more tasing should have been done, drones should have been sent in (for what - to kill people???) and I'm appalled. The OP was chomping at the bit for some kind of violent crackdown, while claiming it was citizens who were violent, which isn't true. The only violence was against the animals, tasing the guy's son and shoving a woman to the ground - all done by the BLM.

This man and his cattle aren't harming anyone and thi8s kind of harassment is what's out of line. "Give them an inch..." indeed.

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Response to Boreal (Reply #182)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 10:18 PM

190. Don't take my word for it

 

go visit a few sites on the far right, especially the Sovereign Movement and the Neo Nazi movement. I could also recommend the good folks at the Oath Keepers.

It is not about being liberal or not. Or authoritarian or not, or for that matter sympathy. Trust me, to these guys, the Feds are the enemy and so are you. And a good liberal is a dead liberal. What happened today is a victory, as big as not quite Fort Sumpter, more like the shot that rang around the world and started the first American Revolution (The Battle of Lexington and Concord)

As to the mythology of ruby ridge, those sites will make it very very clear for you. So is the idea of a second american revolution, where they will return the country to a mythical past that never existed. But the myth you have partly repeated it, but not fully (The influence of the far right on media). It was not entrapment, it was more like yes, he bought weapons and all that.

I will assume, you can correct me, that you live in a very urban center where you really rarely come across this way of thinking. I live in such an urban center and in my regular group of folks I rarely come across this thinking. In the country side, your ears would burn if you heard some of the things these folks at times say, both about the Federal Government, which just got worst since this uppity (*&*( took over, and I have heard those exact words by the way. But also at times even state government. Some of these folks would rather have absolutely no regulations and no government whatsoever. Part of the reason is those damn wonderful liberals in charge.

And some of this has come out of the mouths of government officials, as in board members, which I find ironic as hell.

The most extreme of these folks want ALL and I mean this, ALL local control. They don't even want a County Department of Public Works. Yes, it is that bad. So when it comes to the FBI, BLM and the rest of the alphabet soups, well then, they really both hate them and fear them.

I used to read those hate sites for fun, these days I have actually met people who believe that crap in the flesh.

And yes, we will have more, no less, incidents.

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Response to Boreal (Reply #182)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 10:58 PM

196. Somehow

I think it would benefit your perspective if you went for a drive out in the Rocky Mountain states, OFF the FREEWAY. You have no clue about which you opine here.

I think, especially in my case where I was flamed for speculating a couple scenarios where the millitiaclowns might have felt a win but not won at all, I say those of you who really don't get what life is like out here should take a road trip and check out the landscape... pictures just don't do it justice.

I happen to live out here in the region and have watched this 2+ decade long train wreck develop... and there are militias in my back yard and my front yard, three within a hundred miles of me (mind you, I often go a hundred miles one way just to go grocery shopping), and that's just in my red state.

The cattle in question in this case are not only on BLM land they are also illegally on lands administered by the NPS - NOT grazing allotment, and this guy is no small fry rancher, but he is a mega-welfare rancher who needs to be reined in. It isn't like he hasn't had twenty one years to comply with the laws that the majority of welfare ranchers sort of abide by (at least they get their damned cows off the range when they're supposed to even if they are running 25-80% more head than the allotment allows - and they pay their fees albeit less than they should be paying).

And yes, they are hurting more than one endangered species, cattle degrade springs and creeks and any place water is located which in turn destroys habitat which in turn depletes entire ecosystems via trophic collapse. Cattle are about the worst thing that has happened to the wild of the west next to humans. Watch this grapic example... http://www.westernwatersheds.org/

So this case is about how some welfare rancher has held the BLM at bay for decades, he has threatened violence in the recent past BTW, and the BLM finally got around to taking action and this is what happened.

Anyone calling for drones, I would think, would be for the drones to take out the damned cows... many of which are feral. So drones might be the answer to this problem and nobody but the cows will be targeted and that could end the whole mess in a matter of days. I'm not talking missiles or bombs just some gunfire would put down a bunch of feral cows and the predators and scavengers will take care of the remains thus feeding some wildlife.

I think this loud-mouthed toad should go to jail along with his ignorant spawn but that might be another day's task. For now, I would be happy to see the cattle off my property, this jerk has already shown he deserves no claim to the ownership of our collective property since he has no proper respect for the land, its owners' rules nor the environment, he has to go along with all his damned cows. His friends need to go home and learn to abide by our social contract or find some other place to be assholes.


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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:33 PM

105. For the record, but that is because of the area we cover

 

(Chiefly rural), you are right.

This is how this will go down all over the back country and this is not a good signal to send. Unless some folks are arrested, and charges can be proven on conspiracy and incitement to violence, this is not good.

I expect the language of standing up to the feds and all that crap to increase.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:51 PM

116. I strongly disagree with you,

but I do like that you take insults well. You just call out the insult and leave it at that.

I look forward to arguing with you in the future.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #116)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 06:55 PM

118. I hate being right on this sort of shit, too.

 

But by looking at the far right sites, they are claiming a huge victory, are now going to push Issa to investigate this (you know he will), and are trying to figure out where next to use the armed terrorism approach.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:30 PM

134. if a black, Hispanic, Muslim Militia tried his, would it not have been forcefully ended?

 

Just a question for everyone:

If this whole thing was done by a black or Hispanic (or even worse, Muslim) Militia, do any of you seriously think that the Feds would not have gone and ended it with force?

I am not for bloodshed, but I am not for peaceful end to a solution when it only applies to white Militias.

Also, if the rule of law can be ignored by any armed group in a democratic nation, then doesn't that create a precedent for other armed Militias to attempt the same thing for their cause?

Lastly, if Black, Hispanic or Muslim group tries this stunt in future and it is ended forcefully, won't that show that colour of skin makes all the difference when it comes to whether violence is warranted.

Can none of you see the problems this solution could cause in future.

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Response to politicman (Reply #134)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:32 PM

135. This has been my point all along

 

Wingnut sites are dancing gleefully over their "victory" in this and are plotting how to best use the armed terrorist threat in the future.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #135)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:40 PM

140. You can bet that they will use this tactic in the future.

I can see this happening at women's clinics, schools, political events/rallies, and seven months from now at various polling places around the country.

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Response to Moses2SandyKoufax (Reply #140)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:44 PM

146. They're already plotting use of the armed terrorist tactic.

 

Meanwhile, many on the left are happy this ended without violence, ignoring the imapct it will have on EVERYTHING in the future.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #146)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:57 PM

156. Yeah well,

the flower children have pretty much neutered the lefty movement in this country. I can just picture the kvetching when the Jim-Bobs and KKKletus'es show up armed to harass people at voting precincts this November.

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Response to Moses2SandyKoufax (Reply #156)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:12 PM

160. Agreed

History seems to always repeat itself. This wouldn't be the first time that well intentioned liberals have let the far right do whatever it pleases in the interests of preserving peace while evil men plan for war.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #135)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:41 PM

141. I guess the lesson out of this is that any new OWS movements should arm themselves?

 

I guess the lesson for this for the next future OWS movement is to arm themselves and then go and camp out on federal land in the middle of New York.

I wonder would anyone of those that think this 'peaceful solution' (to this situation where armed Militias defied a law and won was the right thing) support a future OWS movement if they did this in the middle of New York to stop themselves from being peppered sprayed and arrested?

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Response to politicman (Reply #141)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:43 PM

143. OWS would be slaughtered if they did.

 

This only works for wingnuts, progressives adn liberals need not attempt.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #143)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:46 PM

147. "progressives adn liberals need not attempt."

The cities where OWS was abused the worst were the cities traditionally run by Democratic/progressive administrations, i.e. Oakland Denver, etc.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #143)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:51 PM

151. isnt that an indictment on how the feds let this armed group get their way

 

Isn't that an indictment on the whole situation then.

Because I can imagine how many groups out there right now are thinking that all they have to do is arm themselves and they will get their way.

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Response to politicman (Reply #151)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:53 PM

153. It definitely is an indictment on the whole situation.

 

Here we are.

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Response to politicman (Reply #134)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:40 PM

139. Much of this militia WAS Hispanic. That was covered yesterday. n/t

 

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Response to JJChambers (Reply #139)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 07:43 PM

144. Ok the, if it was a Muslim Militia, would this have happened?

 

I never knew that.

But my point still stands.

And Ill make it even easier for you. If this was a Muslim Militia, what do you think would have happened?

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Response to politicman (Reply #144)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:23 PM

163. Hell no. There wouldn't be an argument. Muslims would respect federal land law and would have

gotten the cattle off OUR land when our BLM asked them to, instead of trying to squat and cheat us out of our money. Muslims pay their bills. So much for your stereotyped hypothetical.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #163)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:39 PM

169. my hypothetical was to show the absurdity of letting this armed wing nut group..

 

get their way under the threats of violence.

I only used that hypothetical because Muslims are the latest public enemy it seems, and I wanted to show that if one armed group can stand in the way of a law being carried out and people on this forum support it, then how would they feel if it was a muslim militia doing the same thing.

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Response to politicman (Reply #169)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 08:42 PM

170. Ah, sorry I missed the ironic note there. You're absolutely right; the sympathy here is misplaced.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:04 PM

177. Good job

I think they did a good job. They can arrest him later and with no blood shed.

If it means that much to you. Feel free to grab a weapon and ruck up.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:06 PM

179. Now that the government has capitulated to insurection, we better expect it everytime the RW doesn't

 

get it's way.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)


Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:43 PM

188. Yeah because

 

gunning down women and children makes much more sense. The BLM is playing the long game here, let the wackos go home after the weekend and then come up with a new plan.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:49 PM

189. Only a couple hundred *rightwing* friends. If you're a Fred Hampton, say,

 

...they'll come gun you down in your bed, while claiming after the fact you were "violent."

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 10:52 PM

195. Let me add this just for fun

 

since I bothered to go look it up

Sheriff Mack travels with other CSPOA members, Oathkeepers & State Legislators to stand with Nevada rancher against the BLM Ö
Many of you have called or emailed regarding the storm brewing between Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy and the BLM. We all know how we feel about the all-too-frequent bullying of individual citizens by various Feds with their usurped, unconstitutional powers. Itís an epidemic that must be stopped.

Well, we want you to know we ARE doing something about it, and thankfully this time weíre not alone. Sheriff Mack is leaving early Saturday morning for an emergency trip to Bunkerville, Nevada, along with other members of the CSPOA posse (hopefully thatís some of you!) to stand vigil and find a peaceful resolution to this conflict (i.e., the feds going home).

State Senate President Andy Biggs and House of Reps Speaker Dave Livingston have both agreed that Arizona should be involved in supporting CSPOA and Oath Keepers in going to Bunkerville, NV to support the movement for freedom there with the Cliven Bundy family. State Senators Al Melvin, Chester Crandall, and Kelly Ward along with State Reps Brenda Barton, Bob Thorpe, Kelly Townsend and Warren Peterson are all planning to be at the Bundy ranch by Sunday morning. Furthermore, they all plan to attend the Press Conference Monday afternoon with the CSPOA and Oath Keepers along with the Bundys and other sheriffs and public officials from across the country.


http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/avn-bundy-ranch-update-sheriff-mack-oathkeepers-more/

I will just give you the tittle on this one

Militias Are On Route: Is the 2nd American Revolution Starting in Bunkerville, Nevada? -

See more at: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/militias-are-on-route-is-the-2nd-american-revolution-starting-in-bunkerville-nevada_042014#sthash.hkL8spKl.dpuf

http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/avn-bundy-ranch-update-sheriff-mack-oathkeepers-more/

It is pretty self explanatory.

There is a lot more of this crap out there. The sad part is that since I have followed this crap for DECADES now, I knew what they were saying before looking for you.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #195)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 10:58 PM

197. Welcome to the age of emboldened white wing nutbags waging an open shooting war.

 

Anybody who thinks the BLM backing down here is anything less than a complete disaster that will open the doors to the single most violent period in American history is only fooling themselves.

I say this as a person who originally met with this shit after being threatened by the Phineas Priesthood and having it followed up by the FBI back in 1996 because of things I posted on the internet.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #197)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 11:02 PM

198. I know, you know, I stopped writing a novel involving militias

 

and a school shooting, (ironically I was writing that scene, and also wrote one with one of these boy scouts flying a plane into the Federal building, since done), the day a certain school shooting happened in Colorado. I was writing that, and I put that file on permanent ice. but those books I read in the 1980s are just as applicable right now (Rage Across the Plain comes to mind)

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #198)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 04:55 AM

201. ...

What haven't you done?

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sat Apr 12, 2014, 11:03 PM

199. Another reason guns need to be restricted.

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 04:51 AM

200. OK, something tells me I missed something.

Can anyone fill me in???

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 07:51 AM

203. In Roberts America

 

guns are free speech!

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Response to MohRokTah (Original post)

Sun Apr 13, 2014, 09:04 AM

204. I don't understand

Why the Hell did the put the cattle back? I sort of see why they stopped the round up, and are going to proceed thru courts etc
( which they have been doing for 20 years!!!). But why return the cattle?

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