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Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:19 AM

 

The used car salesman strikes again

"Moreover, Russia has pointed to America’s decision to go into Iraq as an example of Western hypocrisy. Now, it is true that the Iraq War was a subject of vigorous debate not just around the world, but in the United States as well. I participated in that debate and I opposed our military intervention there. But even in Iraq, America sought to work within the international system. We did not claim or annex Iraq’s territory. We did not grab its resources for our own gain. Instead, we ended our war and left Iraq to its people and a fully sovereign Iraqi state that could make decisions about its own future."

- Obama, in Brussells, yesterday

An amazing amount of bullshit in one paragraph. We ran roughshod over the international community to get that war going. If an invasion and ten-year occupation isn't annexation, then nothing is. We totally, totally grabbed their resources, because the oil was supposed to "pay for the war," as I recall...and there were gas lines in Iraq for years after the invasion, because we were sitting on their oil like it was our own private piggy bank. And as for the state we left Iraq in, thousands upon thousands of people have been killed in the sectarian strife we left behind. They aren't making decisions about their future. They're running for their damned lives.

The used car salesman is trying to sell the lemon that was the Iraq war in order to avoid sounding like a hypocrite about Russia.

Utterly nauseating.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:22 AM

1. The 'You Did It Too' Line Taken Against Criticism Of Putin In Crimea, Sir


Pretty much required some such statement from the President. I agree what he said is a stretch and a half, but it does not bother me much. I can understand why it was done.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:48 AM

37. I guess it bothers me because

it's just sort of another step away from dealing with our past as a nation. The Iraq war and everything about it was fucked. The financial crisis, along with the accompanying foreclosure heist, was a criminal conspiracy. At some point all this needs to be dealt with, and Obama's statements just pushed it further under the rug.

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Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #37)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:58 AM

63. Regarding Iraq, Sir, The Man Is Being Held Responsible For a Policy He Opposed

It is largely because he spoke out early against the Iraq war that he is President today.

I expect it rankles him a bit that, when he says Putin is wrong for seizing Crimea and threatening invasion of Ukraine, people say 'you guys went into Iraq, what's the difference?' Had he had his druthers, we would not have invaded Iraq. President Obama does, in fact, have all necessary moral authority therefore for denouncing Putin's imperialist actions.

But since he embodies the institution of government for the United States, he is subject to accusation based on that government's previous actions, and he must to some degree respond to such criticism, and do so without calling into overmuch discredit the government he currently embodies, in order to press the policy he thinks proper at present in the face of the current situation in central Europe.

Not really much else he could do....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #63)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:39 AM

174. Obama's responsible for failing, while President, to prosecute war crimes/criminals

Yes, Obama was not President during the decision to invade Iraq & did not oversee the war crimes committed therein by US officials, military and war profiteers. However, having failed to prosecute those war crimes for the past 6 years, Obama has no standing to criticize Putin. His words are hypocritical in the face of his absence of actions.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #174)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:46 AM

190. That Would Have Been an Extremely Dicey Exercise, Sir

Personally, I would have liked to see it. But I did not expect to.

One of the reasons we have orderly transfers of power in this country, and have had for a long time, is that it is long established custom that to lose an election or an office is not a hanging matter, not a thing that will end in prison rather than the lecture circuit. Even if real crimes were committed, it would be an extremely dangerous and unsettling thing for an incoming administration to set about prosecuting its predecessors on felony charges, and particularly so if those charges were rooted in management of affairs of state, crimes which require holding office to commit. Sooner or later, someone would dig in and say "I'm not leaving the White House just to go to jail', and the matter would be settled not by tally of votes, but by a quick canvas of the loyalties of various generals and police chiefs.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #190)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:37 PM

274. You fail to show respect for the Rule of Law, Ma'am or Sir.

Commenting as a retired lawyer/law professor who has studied and taught international law in both the US and the EU, I'm aware of no legal code at any level of government which exempts elected officials, let alone military personnel or private contractors from prosecution. I'm amazed that you, labeling yourself as "magistrate", which according to modern usage implies you are a municipal level judge, write in reference to Iraq, "if real crimes were committed." And of course Obama's presidency has continued and expanded international drone strikes, i.e, judge, jury & executioner - even on US citizens; and assassination squads, such as the one which disposed of Osama Bin Laden. There is typically cultural resistance, denial and rationalization of war crimes, ex post facto. None of those change the fact that war crimes were committed. One hopes for national leaders to step up, admit fault, dole out appropriate punishments and let the healing begin. Such leaders thus earn the right to call out other countries on illegal actions.

Re Rule of Law, I refer specifically to IHL (International Humanitarian Law) as embodied in the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907; the 1945 Charter of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg and the 1949 Geneva Conventions, which codified IHL after World War II and marked the first specific inclusion in a humanitarian law treaty of a set of war crimes, i.e., the "grave breaches" of the conventions.

Each of the four Geneva Conventions (on wounded and sick on land, wounded and sick at sea, prisoners of war, and civilians) contains its own list of grave breaches. The list in its totality is: willful killing; torture or inhuman treatment (including medical experiments); willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health; extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly; compelling a prisoner of war or civilian to serve in the forces of the hostile power; willfully depriving a prisoner of war or protected civilian of the rights of a fair and regular trial; unlawful deportation or transfer of a protected civilian; unlawful confinement of a protected civilian; and taking of hostages. Additional Protocol I of 1977 expanded the protections of the Geneva Conventions for international conflicts to include as grave breaches: certain medical experimentation; making civilians and nondefended localities the object or inevitable victims of attack; the perfidious use of the Red Cross or Red Crescent emblem; transfer of an occupying power of parts of its population to occupied territory; unjustifiable delays in repatriation of POWs; apartheid; attack on historic monuments; and depriving protected persons of a fair trial. Under the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol I, States must prosecute persons accused of grave breaches or hand them over to a State willing to do so. -
See more at: http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/war-crimes-categories-of/#sthash.W0OHnowG.dpuf

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Response to Divernan (Reply #274)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:42 PM

287. I Fail To Show Respect For a Lot Of Things, Sir

People who lecture me on first principles while disregarding an accurate description of how things actually work are pretty low down the list, but can be found there.

"It is pretty dangerous for a human being to demand justice."

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #287)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:55 PM

319. The Rule of Law IS the first principle, the sine qua non of justice.

Interesting world view you have. Anyone who disagrees with you and presents facts, you label dismissively as "lecturing" you.

Another thing you fail to show respect for is gender identity, in that you continue to presume I am male and address me as "Sir".

Finally, what in heavens name does "It is pretty dangerous for a human being to demand justice." mean? I googled the phrase and came up with nothing re quotations. Are you saying Obama has been threatened not to prosecute war crimes? Are you saying it is dangerous for me to demand justice from my government? Please do clarify.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #319)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:39 PM

390. that phrase bothered me, too

Dangerous to demand justice? Of course it is. That's the genius of our system of law; all are equal under it. And the bum may seek the truth and speak the truth with impunity under that protection.

Magistrate's phrase sounds like an authoritarian threat of some kind. No, sir magistrate, in America it is the absolute right of the citizen to demand justice.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #319)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:05 PM

488. I don't know with absolute certainty, but I intuit the implication to be "dangerous" to Obama's Life

 

and/or his family members. It is a conclusion I have been compelled to reach time and time again. a message in that regard must have been issued to Obama when he took office.

It's the only thing that makes any sense to me.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #488)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:11 PM

631. exactly the way I have felt and feel.

 

No evidence of it of course. But what if the MIC are actually threatening the Presidents of our country and their families?
What would the remedy be without real evidence it was happening. I remember soon after President O was elected. He was always showing a cheerful smiling face but then suddenly he had a strange look. I wondered about it then. I thought I sensed anger and maybe even fear.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #319)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:07 PM

490. See his reply #217....Nixon/Clinton I think it goes to what he was thinking as to why

little can be done, at this point.

I agree with you that we should have hoped to see at least a Commission ...maybe a Special Prosecutor. But, by now the MIC is so thoroughly in charge, none of that was or is possible. Even the "9/11 Commission" was so flawed that we are still living with the after effects of it which goes into the hypocrisy of his address. I know in GB there have been some pretty strong efforts to go after Tony Blair with special investigations and there was evidence that Blair and Bush colluded before the Invasion of Iraq. It got a lot of press and then sort of died away.

Obama should have found a different way to approach the Crimea situation than what he said which was so hypocritical shoving it into faces those of us on the Left who knew how wrong and illegal the Iraq Invasion was and the rest of the countries who are suffering under our drone strikes, Libyan Invasion after effects and the abomination of our paying "Insurgents & Military Contractors" with our tax dollars to destabilize the Middle East.

Anyway...thought you might have missed that insight about pardoning Nixon and what happened with Clinton. I hadn't thought about that in awhile..and that does fit into why Obama is constricted. But, it's a pattern he has that he doesn't seem to want to get involved in prosecuting the wrong doings he Could Get Involved With. Wall Street an the rest that causes us to wonder...what he is about.

Nice to see you around here.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #319)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:54 PM

506. You May Recall, Sir, The Old Tag

"Where there is no remedy, there is no right."

Where there is no means to enforce, there is no rule of law, nor can there be. I am quite familiar with international humanitarian law, and understand that it is very seldom enforced, and when enforced, is enforced only against the weak and the defeated. Whatever may be written, and even employed at times as guidance in planning and executing various military actions, in point of fact there is no international law, no law of war, nothing which could be dignified by the phrase 'rule of law', and that because there is no mechanism for enforcing it on any and all violators, regardless of stature or power. The actual employment of international law is as one more tool in the politico-military armory, something which can be used to lay claim to moral high ground in a conflict, either by accusation one's opponent has violated it, or by insistence one is oneself abiding by it scrupulously.

No one, not you, not my grand-children's grand-children, will ever see a duly elected government in the United States indict leading figures of the administration it replaces for war crimes, even where these crimes are also crimes under Federal statute, and even where there is no reasonable doubt they have been committed. It is not part of our political and social custom and tradition, and that is not going to change. Nor am I convinced there would be much by way of good result if it were changed.

For the rest, I will leave you to contemplate the concept of just deserts, and a favorite line from old Mr. Clemens....

"I know of nothing against him save that he is a human being, and that is enough to hang any man."

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #506)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 06:00 PM

530. I just jumped in late here, after dinner, in fact.

What's with all this "SIR" stuff?
Sir SIR... "SIR."
I am trying to hear your points and the points of others, particularly Divernan. And I find strengths in both positions...

But I find that your repeated use of SIR, sounds a bit..pompous, a show of false respect, of insult.

You are intelligent, probably quite so.

Maybe just have your discussion........ it IS an important one, after all.


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Response to pangaia (Reply #530)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 06:21 PM

536. My screen name, DiverNAN, identifies me as female, but he calls me Sir.

It's not a big deal - sometimes Magistrate addresses posters as "Ma'am" - but use of either title seems an affectation - like we're reading a Dickens penny dreadful. To the degree that it introduces an element of formality, that's better than some of the recently tossed around epithets. What I really would like to see from him or her is an explanation of what he or she meant in post 287 with that earlier quote" "It is pretty dangerous for a human being to demand justice."

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Response to Divernan (Reply #536)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 07:03 PM

564. I'm pretty sure it was innocent enough

and referred to potential danger to Obama or whoever stirs up the spooks' hornets nest, rather than any kind of threat to you. At least that's how it looked to me, and I've seen his posts for a long time on DU (I'm not defending his viewpoint, though, in fact I greatly appreciate your contributions here, there has to be some kind of accountability for wrongfully and dishonestly attacking and occupying, for 10 years, a sovereign nation, especially when we're talking about the responsibility of heading the most powerful military the world has ever seen, or our country's very existence is illegitimate).

Glad you clued him in that you're not a "sir". It's not that obvious from your user name, until you already know. I knew because I had seen an earlier post of yours in another thread.

This whole thing really shows how untenable our unofficial global police thing is. We're doing that, and have been for quite awhile, without any real international authority to do so. Some nations are cool with it, others aren't. Nobody asks the U.S. taxpayer if they want to be the world's police (nor if they want the target on their backs that being the world's police places there), they just make us pay for it, trillions, and they make damn sure we have no or few chances to elect representatives who aren't down with the global cop role.

Since it's not an official status, there are really no rules, and apparently no accountability either. We pretend to operate by existing international rules and treaties, but as we've seen over and over, we ignore them when we want to do something we can't get approval for, so we're just using them as a fig leaf over world military dominance. The multinational corporations, many of them originating from our country but no longer loyal to it or to its citizens, are highly dependent on our role to provide safe, affordable, and dependable access to natural and human resources everywhere on the planet, regardless of the wishes of people in other nations (or our own).

So, no official status, unapproved military adventurism, no accountability, but we're the cops so who is going to tell us otherwise? Sounds a lot like some of the police problems we have right here at home.

Then comes the interesting part, when some other nation tries to play the "they did it so I can do it" card. The gymnastics required to try to invalidate their actions while not invalidating our own show how wrong our entire geopolitical dominance really is.

The Iraq War was indefensible and in the eyes of much of the world it cost the U.S. an awful loss of moral standing. Obama needed to more directly acknowledge this and make some attempt at a truth commission, some mechanism to demonstrate accountability and show that we understand we misused our power, and that we won't continue to do so. Failure to attempt this in any way has left us where we are, without credibility, and looking around every corner to see who to invade next.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #536)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 07:17 PM

567. He appears to have given you a hint, if not an answer

"I know of nothing against him save that he is a human being, and that is enough to hang any man."


I think, but cannot be certain, that the implication is one seeking justice will find oneself hanged for the shared crime of being a part of humanity. I think it is a snobby way to say if one lives in a glass house one should not throw stones. "It is pretty dangerous for a human being to demand justice." - "I know of nothing against him save that he is a human being, and that is enough to hang any man.

I don't personally much like the stench of false equivalency that one smells when admittedly flawed humans are considered equal to those that commit war crimes.

I do demand justice flawed as I am and do not fear facing a backlash of justice for meager crimes I may have committed due to my flawed humanity.

It is also possible he meant nothing at all but liked the way it sounded.
It is hard to fathom the enigmatic ones....

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Response to Divernan (Reply #536)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 07:55 PM

576. My sense is that he doesn't want to go that far...that's he's

a cautionary person, who is reflecting on what he's seen in his life's experience. Which, frankly, ...these days...I can't fault him on, given what we "experienced" DU'ers have seen in our own lifetime from JFK on downward. Just saying. I don't believe we should EVER Give Up Trying to right these wrongs because I'm an idealist. But, I recognize that Idealism will only get one so far if there isn't a movement or judicial system who will take up our cause. So far one has not appeared which has the strength to undo what we've seen over these past decades.

But, that's just my opinion of what I feel he is cautionary about... which might come off differently to those of us who read him who are used to "one liners and snark" these days on the "DU" that we feel attacked 24/7 for whatever we post...and so sometimes we don't read careful or have time for nuance of a post.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #536)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 09:49 PM

610. Reminds me of someone

 

who used to address everyone as "Dude," regardless of gender.

Can't remember who it was. Some asshole probably.

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Response to pangaia (Reply #530)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:06 PM

611. I find it weird that in all the time you've been here

you're not familiar with The Magistrate's posting style. It is like CaliforniaPeggy's "my dear". We know and love them each for both the style and content of their posts. I'm sorry it bothers you. It isn't meant to.

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #611)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 07:49 AM

671. Thank you.

I don't always have a full view of things, in fact rarely.
While that 'phrase' does irritate me, it is MY problem. In fact, I almost deleted my post as being overly sensitive.
What he/she has to say is always thought-provoking.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #506)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 05:20 AM

668. it's really hard to take you seriously....

 

....if you (and clemens) can't find an actionable difference between ordinary human flaw and war crimes. I see just a bit too much of settling for "how things are" in these posts.

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Response to tomp (Reply #668)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 05:23 AM

669. Suit Yourself, Sir

"What other people think of me is none of my business."

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #669)

Sat Mar 29, 2014, 07:28 AM

706. really?! then why post at all? nt

 

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #287)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:24 PM

459. "How things actually work" is just code for abuse of power

...the kind for which the powerful have no authority.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #274)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:31 PM

377. Excellent!

Recommending Post #274 by Divernan

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #190)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:43 PM

290. Yeah, it would be hard to do

However, we have laws against wars of aggression, and laws against torture. Part of that is that torture has been shown to not work, but also that it's damaging to the society that commits it. Arguably, we have seen the damage done to our society.

the damage done by NOT prosecuting the banks has created a very definite split in the legal system of individual criminals - non-rich people - vs. corporations. Personally, I'm afraid of the idea of getting a mortgage to buy a home because I'm not sure the bank will not just steal it from me. And there's no recourse if they do.

These two things together illustrate that while we have laws, they don't apply to certain people, and that severely undermines the whole idea of having laws. At the very least, it shows that laws aren't what they say they are - a law may say people can't steal, but really mean that poor people can't steal. Worse is the situation that laws exist, but can be applied at the whim of whoever is in power. We see that happening in how anti-corruption laws are applied against one political party. Issa is a screaming example. And it deepens a sense that the whole government, the whole system, is hopelessly corrupted and that people - in a democracy supposedly - really don't have any control.

Without that sense that we live by rules, that the rules apply to everyone, people will take what they can. An example of that happening is the religious people who own businesses feeling free to force their beliefs on their employees. If they have the power to do so, why not? Likewise, if a bank feels like foreclosing on a house so they can get more money, why not? That's the real danger in just letting crimes by important people slide.

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Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #290)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:47 PM

301. Everything Has Consequences, Sir

And indeed it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain the fiction this is a democracy, if by that is meant a state in which what the people want government to do is what it does.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #301)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:20 PM

360. Yes, things have consequences, but some consequences are worse than others

Long term, the failure to prosecute things like torture of theft by banks has huge consequences. Short term, it was convenient. I can see why Obama did it. He really wanted to work on things that would help, and he didn't want his whole presidency to be bogged down in a bitter partisan fight. But now, he's getting that partisan fight anyway - Issa delivers. Also, he's kind of given the Repubs a pass, so they keep doing it (all the while going after Democrats).

Here's the reality we have to deal with: we're the masses. We can be arrested and put in jail in someone in power wants to do so. Often, they do, because it benefits them economically when for-profit prisons get their quota and the people in power get kickbacks. Also, if corporations want our money, they can take it. Have a house? BofA wants it? Bummer dude. Want to change the system? The corporations don't, because it serves them well, and they're people just like you, but will a hell of a lot more influence. We all know that's bullshit, but we also know that the politicians and people with money will come up with twisted logic to support whatever position they want, then they'll go ahead and implement that position. We'll sit here and take it.

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Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #360)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:58 PM

508. I Have No Quarrel At All With Your Description Of Present Reality, Sir

Personally, I would feel a lot better about our President and his prospects ( and ours as citizens and Democrats ) if I thought he had ever punched someone at any point in his life, but I suspect he has not....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #301)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:30 PM

375. “We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things....

... Not because they are easy, but because they are hard.” ---JFK


Turning away from Doing-the-Right-Thing because it would be "difficult" to confront it
gives tacit approval to the initial crimes,
and only adds another layer to the hypocrisy.


"Hope & Change"---PBO



You will know them by their WORKS.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #190)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 07:58 PM

577. In my view, a dicey exercise is night patrol in Iraq. Not prosecuting real crime.

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #577)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 08:26 PM

582. Risking a Country's Political Functioning, Sir, Does Not Strike Me As A Slight Matter

It could very well go awfully wrong down the road.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #582)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 08:29 PM

584. That is exactly what you risk by failing to prosecute known corruption and criminality, IMHO.

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #584)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 08:34 PM

586. And I Think, Sir, You Dismiss Other Serious Risks

Whether I agree those risks are more serious than others does not affect my view that they are real, and that to be chary of them is a reasonable position.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #586)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 08:38 PM

588. I'm glad we understand each others position :-)

 

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #586)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 09:29 PM

601. Awesome ...



Please tell us you're not really a Magistrate.

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #601)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:15 PM

614. You Seem To Enjoy Posting Pictures Of Conflagrations, Sir

Odd.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #584)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 01:20 PM

694. The beauty of the American system is that it is able to shake off periods of rampant criminality

 

I mean, we had a Civil War where none of the leaders of the losing side were hung. In any other country in human history, they would still be hanging people.

When I was in college, I saw a lecture by a historian who was asked to make a prediction about the future of the US.

He said, "There will be national elections where the losing side concedes without violence in 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, 2016 and 2020." He followed up by saying that few countries in history could point to peaceful transitions of power over a regular period that far into the future.

There is value in that that outweighs the value of some kind of bizarre trial of Dick Cheney in The Hague.

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Response to theboss (Reply #694)

Sat Mar 29, 2014, 12:04 AM

705. I disagree. It's led to a corruption of our political system.

 

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Response to Divernan (Reply #174)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:59 PM

327. He never said he would do that.

This is a joke.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #174)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:38 AM

674. Thank you

Those who can not see the mistakes of Obama come out in droves any time he is justly criticized. Cheney and the Bush administration committed murder. Why does Obama shirk punishing them? I believe he fears being punished himself by the next administration for the murders he has committed.

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Response to Thespian2 (Reply #674)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 02:20 PM

698. You're welcome, and welcome to DU

As per your history with the visual and performing arts, may I share with you my excitement that in June I'll be in NYC to see two imports from the UK: Kenneth Branagh's rave-reviewed production of the Scottish play, and Daniel Radcliffe in his also well-reviewed play by Martin McDonagh, The Cripple of Inishmaan (they brought the whole West End cast with them.) Many people know Radcliffe from his Harry Potter films. I've been quite surprised how few people know who Kenneth Branagh is or have any familiarity with his work. I've been a fan of his for decades. A great trip to anticipate in the midst of all the political insanity.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #63)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:25 PM

259. eloquent

Perfect analysis of the President 's comments on the ill conceived Iraq war.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #63)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:39 PM

281. Well said

It really steams me when people say 'we did it too".

My response is: Who are you calling we? I did not support that war and neither did our president.

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Response to stopwastingmymoney (Reply #281)

Sun Mar 30, 2014, 05:54 AM

712. It steams me too because we didn't 'do it too' we did much, much worse to the point that it boggles

the mind that anyone even thought such a comparison could be made.

The President voted to fund the Iraq War, he intervened to stop Spain's prosecution of the Bush Six for torture, a court that had jurisdiction to do so since some of their citizens were victims of this country.

Crimeans VOTED overwhelmingly to decide their own future. There was no invasion, there was an appeal from the people to Russia and if anyone doesn't like people telling the TRUTH about what is going on, that is irrelevant.

I remember when this forum was almost 100% FOR the prosecution of the War Criminals, demanding it, calling Congress. I remember when President Obama was asked during the campaign if his administration would prosecute war crimes. He did not say 'no', he stated that this would depend on whether or not there was evidence of crimes. Well, there has been, plenty of it.

He did oppose the war before being elected to the Senate. He should then have joined the few courageous souls who refused to vote to fund it, but he did not. That means he DID support it and lost the right to claim, as he did in his speech, that he did not.

I supported him partly because of his opposition to the war. Now I, like so many others, feel totally betrayed.

To be told here on DU that there is no expectation justice for major crimes committed by the rich and famous, is simply stunning. IF that is true, then the Bush crimes will look like misdeanors compared to what future 'leaders' will do knowing they are untouchable.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #63)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:42 PM

395. Well said and well understood. Thanks!

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #63)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:13 PM

428. And I would not be surprised if this message was not given to President Obama...

"We just postponed the ISS flight from yesterday and we may be required to remove the American from the flight if we cannot come to an agreement..." Huh?

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #63)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 06:27 PM

541. If the godamn war was wrong when he opposed,

 

it remains wrong. He does indeed embody the institution of American government. and that government no longer has any moral authority in the world. It has squandered it all. There was plenty else he could have done. Not the least of which was to apologize to the world and promise not to engage in further criminal behavior like the invasion of Iraq. That would go a long way to reestablishing our moral authority for criticizing the Russians.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #63)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 12:03 AM

639. All he had to say was 'I did not support that invasion' and then return to the US and start talking

to the DOJ about beginning the long awaited investigations of the Bush/Cheney band of war criminals. Starting at the bottom and working up.

The very fact that he has told the world the US is 'moving on' from war crimes, and when the Spanish Court, which had waited to begin ITS prosecutions of the 'Bush Six' to see if the new administration would handle it themselves, then realized that was not going to happen, began plans to continue its prosecutions, the US, as we saw in the Wikileaks cables, personally intervened to 'save' those criminals from prosecution.

THAT would have lifted the burden from the US. To let the Spanish Court start with the lower echelons, Gonzales et al. But that is not what happened, they were protected, and the world knows it, and so long as War Crimes remain unaccounted for EVERY US PRESIDENT will be faced with what President Obama is now facing, accusations of hypocrisy which are very, very hard to defend.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #639)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 04:22 AM

667. Ma'am, Please Consider The Matter Seriously

No President of the United States is going to allow a foreign court, and I might even say particularly a Spanish court, to try members of a previous administration for crimes. It is simply not going to happen. Ordinary concerns of political practicality, which I am sure you are aware of and do understand, will not permit it.

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Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #37)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:05 PM

223. the associated issue is this:

When a Democratic president accepts (even grudgingly) Republican crimes, the particular issue is no longer a Democratic principle, and cannot any longer be used to campaign on a distinction between the parties.

Obama has lost, for us, several main Democratic principles. The party is weakened because of it.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #223)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 07:09 PM

565. +1

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Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #37)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:17 PM

240. it's just sort of another step away from dealing with our past as a nation.

 

He should have said Putin was acting just like the Bush Administration.... and we can't have that kind of crap going on again.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #240)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:47 PM

399. That's right...

... had he used that language, the whole world and ALL Democrats (left & right Dems alike) would be praising him. He would have gotten a standing ovation. Rather, it's like the USA can go around the effing world wreaking havoc for decades at a time, and when the next pres comes in, all is forgiven and forgotten? Hello?

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Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #37)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:55 PM

407. Well said. Seconded. n/t

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Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #37)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 01:43 AM

646. Exactly. Well said. n/t

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:51 AM

42. his mouth is full of putrid bullshit...

...in defense of crimes against humanity. I will NEVER forgive anyone who voted for the IWR, nor can I find any charity for its mealy mouthed defenders. Using it as the GOOD side of a contrast is disgusting. It bothers the hell out of me.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #42)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:00 AM

65. Now There, Sir, Is A Reasoned Argument If Ever I Saw One

We do not always agree on matters, but I have always considered you someone whose comments were worth taking seriously. This is well below standard.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #65)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:01 AM

70. Below standard is the new high standard on DU.

 

Apparently.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #65)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:16 AM

114. it's not an argument-- it's a statement about my response....

I'm not going to engage in parsing spin and assigning imaginative mass to competing justifications. The ONLY presidential words I will ever respect with regard to the war against Iraq are "I'm sorry, we committed a crime against humanity, and we promise to bring those responsible to justice." Throw in "and I hereby resign and submit myself to custody" for those who voted for it. Never happen, you say? I agree. Nonetheless, I'm not going to let the practical impediments to justice make it all better.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #65)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:29 AM

152. I don't see it that way........

 

Rather than ostensible attempted amelioration of what America did in Iraq, why couldn't he have just said. "Yes, in retrospect, the United States was wrong to have invaded Iraq. And now, Putin was wrong to have annexed Crimea. Two wrongs don't make a right no matter how you look at it."

Then he avoids a certain percentage of the people querying to others and themselves: Is he trying somehow to justify America's invasion of Iraq?

I said long ago that Iraq was America's Parthia. And this is unfolding as I and many others considered. But I diverge...

Just my thoughts, Magistrate. I voted for Obama twice. And the way things are today, I would vote for him for a third term. But, then, there are things I do not like. I view this as normal. Doesn't sound like some do...

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Response to ballyhoo (Reply #152)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:41 AM

178. I Agree That Would Have Been a Good Approach, Sir

Possibly even a better one.

It would amount, though, to defending himself at the expense of the institution he embodies, and would simply open different lines of attack. I am sure you can imagine some of the things that would be blaring through the media coverage of such a comment.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #178)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:51 AM

198. Well, maybe, but as someone who hasn't followed the America media

 

since Iran-Contra, it is hard for me argue your point. But you at least allowed my point. I think this may be more important than the Header Post message itself. If we can't debate a point without the Hatfields v/ McCoy horseshit, I mean, what's the point?

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Response to ballyhoo (Reply #198)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:53 AM

204. I Would Expect, Sir

Coverage would be long and loud on the 'Obama apologies again for America, signals weakness to Kremlin strong-man" line, and that is something we can do without just now.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #204)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:56 AM

206. Put that way, roger that--

 

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #178)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:22 PM

253. it would open different lines of attack because there is no good way...

...to polish that particular turd. The very attempt gets shit all over one's hands.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #178)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:05 PM

333. Agreed. Obama is CEO head cheese of this huge corporation called The United States

 

He got the job and swore to take care of business and have it thrive as best he can, he cannot call the company out at present or when under a previous CEO.

I am looking forward to his book after he leaves office. Hopefully a lot of personal thoughts will come out and we will see the differences between being a citizen and being in charge are.

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Response to ballyhoo (Reply #152)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 12:30 AM

644. Yeah but there is still one big difference....we didn't keep Iraq....largely because this President

 

got elected.

As you know....the Bush gang had plans to NEVER leave Iraq....they had every intention to "annex the oil" from that country to boot. Because we elected President Obama.....we didn't go in that direction. What do you think Romney would have done...How about giving a little fucking credit where credit is due for once....

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #644)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 05:38 AM

670. Sorry, I dispute your header here. We own

 

Iraq and always will. When the final accounting is made and the US slips into redundancy, it will be because of many things, but none as prominent as Iraq. We didn't annex the oil because it couldn't have been done. The flower-wielding Iraqis would have blown up the oil wells themselves. Thank you for your time.

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Response to ballyhoo (Reply #670)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:42 AM

675. UH no we don't Obama is bringing home the last soldier from Iraq....

 

Republicans had NO plans to bring them home at all....they planned to keep them there indefinitely

So whatever gets you through the nite to cling to your narrative that there is no difference between the Democrats and this President and the Republicans and now Putin...your narrative is still wrong. This President is doing his level best to give Iraq back to the Iraqi's....that is most certainly NOT what Putin is planning to do with Crimea, is it? But far be it from you to give the man any credit at all. I know you would find "Presidenting" so easy if you were the one elected!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #675)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 10:23 AM

690. The US owning Iraq has nothing to do with anything you

 

posted. When you kill between 500,000 and a million people in a foreign land, you own that land and its future endeavors forever, whether a Republican or a Democrat President destroyed the country. I know about owning other countries--I served time in Vietnam: where another US contrived war took place. Crimea wanted to go Russian except for the Tartars, and even some of them preferred Russia than Victoria Nuland's band of terrorists. AND, I would bet my bottom dollar the Crimeans will end up in much happier and in better economical condition under Russia than the Ukrainian basket case they were living under. But that is just speculation. Finally, a country being given back to itself by the country that ravaged it for ten years is not really much of a gift. It is more of a slap in the face. You apparently do not understand war, which is good for you. I understand it, and wish I didn't--

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Response to ballyhoo (Reply #690)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 09:56 PM

703. Actually QUITE the opposite...the President Obama has NO connection to Russia'a annexation of

 

Crimea and Bush's War in Iraq....a war he had no intention of walking away from EVER!!!! So you comparing Barack Obama to Vladimir Putin is ridiculous..Perhaps for Crimea's sake....Russian's will elect their own Barack Obama!

Trying to make that claim just proves how BADLY you would like to smear this President....its desperation at its highest.

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #703)

Sat Mar 29, 2014, 10:05 AM

709. Smear him? I voted for him twice. I'm not into

 

projection, so this conversation is over.

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Response to ballyhoo (Reply #709)

Sat Mar 29, 2014, 11:31 PM

711. Yeah right.....I don't care how many times you voted for him....

 

You voted for him....then what is your major malfunction....Iraq has been going on his entire Presidency.....weren't you too ashamed to vote for him the second time....weren't most of what you have in your craw about Obama and or the Iraq war happening THEN? What did you expect him to do...did you think he was going to radically and completely change his entire strategy over night? If that is what you thought....what does that say about YOUR judgement?

YOU expected miracles....YOU expected a "Savior" YOU expected "the One" YOU expected him to walk on water....You expected Sparkle Ponies and Flying cars! Since you didn't get the ENTIRE list of YOUR personal pet peeve issues addressed to your satisfaction President Obama didn't confer with you on all things foreign and domestic.... that means President Obama is a Poopy-Head!

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Response to mike_c (Reply #42)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:20 PM

248. Your Purity is a Shining Example to us All

 


I hope that I, too, can one day have the courage to sit at my computer and mewl ineffectually at everything that has ever chapped my hide.

Bravo, sirrah, bravo!


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Response to psiman (Reply #248)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:26 PM

260. a wonderfully crafted ad hominem, LOL....

Hat's off!

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Response to mike_c (Reply #42)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 06:59 PM

560. hmmm. nt

 

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:38 AM

173. There is another way to avoid people pointing out 'you did worse', not 'you did it too' btw.

It really is simple. Prosecute the war criminals. Only then can the US expect to point fingers without having fingers pointed back at us. Which is why we elected Democrats. Because we CARE about this country. It HURTS people who worked so hard to try to stop that massive crime, to see all of us sharing the blame or to see those we elected try to excuse it in our name.

I cannot imagine why that is so hard to understand. I opposed that crime and still do and care far more about the victims of the crime, the troops who are gone, the wounded, the troops who commit suicide every day because of it, the Iraqis, men women and children tortured, murdered, raped, while our government protects and defends the war criminals. It is beyond endurance, frankly.

And if never changing our views on this, over the entire period the crime has been in progress, makes us unwelcome now in the Dem Party, or in the minds of the leadership of the party, 'wrong', NO, WE WERE NOT WRONG AND ARE STILL NOT WRONG.

And there is just no rational defense of it all.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #173)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:48 AM

192. I Will Take The Liberty, Ma'am, Of Repeating Something I Said Above

One of the reasons we have orderly transfers of power in this country, and have had for a long time, is that it is long established custom that to lose an election or an office is not a hanging matter, not a thing that will end in prison rather than the lecture circuit. Even if real crimes were committed, it would be an extremely dangerous and unsettling thing for an incoming administration to set about prosecuting its predecessors on felony charges, and particularly so if those charges were rooted in management of affairs of state, crimes which require holding office to commit. Sooner or later, someone would dig in and say "I'm not leaving the White House just to go to jail', and the matter would be settled not by tally of votes, but by a quick canvas of the loyalties of various generals and police chiefs.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #192)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:53 AM

205. I see the dangers of prosecuting elected officials. I also see the danger of never prosecuting

War Criminals, and have to weigh which is more of a threat to this country.

Nixon resigned, rather than face impeachment. It did not destroy this country when what he did was exposed and he was forced from office. If anything, it made it better.

Your way ensures that criminals can run for office, use that powerful office to commit massive crimes without fear of consequences.

If as you say it would destroy this country to apply the rule of law to major criminals who have abused their power and the trust of the people, then something has gone very wrong with this democracy.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #205)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:58 AM

209. The solution is to send the evidence to the Hague and cooperate with them so that

 

accusations of a person or party engaging in a politicized prosecution cannot be made.

But a domestic prosecution of a prior President by the sitting President is fraught with the problems the Magistrate mentioned.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #209)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:13 PM

427. You are right. So, when the US opted out of the ICC (and the current admin didn't rejoin)

that really said and says it all.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #205)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:02 PM

217. I Aree, Ma'am: Often Life Is A Choice Between Poor Alternatives

I would, however, take exception to your calling this 'my way': recognizing what is and is not likely to change or be changed is neither choosing it nor endorsing it.

Your citation of Nixon illustrates the matter well. Mr. Ford's decision to pardon Nixon, not to prosecute him, was key to his resignation: Nixon received in fact no legal punishment at all for his crimes.

It might well have been better for the thing to have gone to the impeachment he faced, and resigned to avoid. That is the means for sanction against crimes of state committed in office by a President, after all.

One of the worst effects of the hounding of President Clinton by radical Republicans in Congress is that it has discredited the remedy of impeachment for a generation at least, and left our system without even a pretense of remedy for malfeasance in high office.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #217)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:56 PM

321. Well Said... Recommend...Nixon/Clinton examples..


"It might well have been better for the thing to have gone to the impeachment he faced, and resigned to avoid. That is the means for sanction against crimes of state committed in office by a President, after all.

One of the worst effects of the hounding of President Clinton by radical Republicans in Congress is that it has discredited the remedy of impeachment for a generation at least, and left our system without even a pretense of remedy for malfeasance in high office."

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Response to KoKo (Reply #321)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 05:00 PM

509. Thank You, Ma'am

I appreciate your comments, here and elsewhere nearby.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #192)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:13 PM

236. there's a remedy for that

Immunity for the president and perhaps the vice president. Prosecution -- severe prosecution -- for any other officials who have committed crimes in that administration. Execution, perhaps, in certain circumstances.

The result of this for the last administration would be pardon for Bush and maybe even for Cheney, but firing squad for Rumsfeld, Feith, Rice, and the others.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #236)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:45 PM

295. Oh sure that would work, but not very well.

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Response to lumpy (Reply #295)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:54 PM

315. the current sweeping things under the rug...

...isn't working too well either. It's like a screwball dysfunctional family where no one talks about Uncle George's criminal behavior.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #315)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:06 PM

335. Yes, I go along with that all the way.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 06:16 PM

535. What he said was laughable bullshit

 

and the European press kicked his ass for it.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 09:26 PM

597. Have some awesome ...



with your understanding.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:24 AM

2. dissemblers and prevaricators in 3 2 1 . . .

 

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Response to RandoLoodie (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:25 AM

3. Hello.

 

Welcome to DU!

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Response to bigwillq (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:25 AM

4. Why thank you!

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:26 AM

5. You can't be serious

"The used car salesman is trying to sell the lemon that was the Iraq war in order to avoid sounding like a hypocrite about Russia.

Utterly nauseating."

Are you defending Russia while distorting the President's statement?

Moreover, Russia has pointed to America’s decision to go into Iraq as an example of Western hypocrisy. Now, it is true that the Iraq War was a subject of vigorous debate not just around the world, but in the United States as well. I participated in that debate and I opposed our military intervention there. But even in Iraq, America sought to work within the international system. We did not claim or annex Iraq’s territory. We did not grab its resources for our own gain. Instead, we ended our war and left Iraq to its people and a fully sovereign Iraqi state that could make decisions about its own future.

Of course, neither the United States nor Europe are perfect in adherence to our ideals, nor do we claim to be the sole arbiter of what is right or wrong in the world. We are human, after all, and we face difficult choices about how to exercise our power. But part of what makes us different is that we welcome criticism, just as we welcome the responsibilities that come with global leadership.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/26/remarks-president-address-european-youth

There was in fact a process to work with the international community...right up until Bush violated all agreements. On that score, Bush's and Putin's invasions are illegal.

Obama did defend his own actions in Iraq: ending the war and leaving it a sovereign state.
HuffPo and those interested in giving Bush a pass love the headline: Obama Defends Iraq Invasion.

I mean, why the fuck else would anyone spin opposition to the invasion as defending it?

There is likely one other reason, but would anyone admit it: Thanks, Obama.

For once, the nonsense isn't winning the day except among some dead-enders.

Calm, Cool, and Collected, President Obama Schools ABC Reporter During Press Conference at The Hague
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024732240

That one went viral on Facebook.

Obama's role in the Iraq war:

The End of the Iraq War: A Timeline



http://www.whitehouse.gov/iraq


Enjoy.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:13 AM

105. Bingo! We have a winner!

Methinks Mr Pitt has other issues these days that are clouding his judgement.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #105)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:00 PM

411. Good rebuttal!

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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:57 AM

207. Nice to know some people here still can talk sensibly

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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 06:48 PM

556. To use a legal term, what President Obama did was to distinguish the Iraq war from Crimea

Remember that President Obama is a lawyer and a law professor. What President Obama did in his speech was to distinguish the Iraq war from the situation in Crimea. Here is a simplified explanation of this concept. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/distinguish

Distinguish
To set apart as being separate or different; to point out an essential disparity.

To distinguish one case from another case means to show the dissimilarities between the two. It means to prove a case that is cited as applicable to the case currently in dispute is really inapplicable because the two cases are different.

The Iraq war is a very different situation compared to the conduct of Russia in annexing Crimea. In his speech, President Obama did not defend the Iraq war but merely explained why the Iraq war was not relevant to the conduct of Russia in annexing Crimea.

As a lawyer, there is a huge difference here.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 02:38 AM

657. Thanks ProSense for having brought some more

light on pitt's stink bomb.



http://www.whitehouse.gov/iraq

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:27 AM

6. Double down on a stupid comment.

 

Way to go!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:29 AM

7. Unrec. You're right, something is utterly nauseating.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:39 AM

20. +1,000,000 nt

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Response to FSogol (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:04 AM

78. You got it

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Response to FSogol (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:02 PM

216. Indeed. Something stinks around here

and it isn't the President.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:29 AM

8. This tu-quoque "IRAQ!" bullshit is just getting tiresome.

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:38 AM

19. Hi new person

Your comments are against DU rules. Just thought I would let you know since you are ...new.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #19)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:42 AM

24. Actually I'm not new.

 

And I know the rules.

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Response to Cofitachequi (Reply #24)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:48 AM

38. you know about the 5 hides rule, right ?

Some people have gotten blocked for a while because of it. Just a friendly FYI.

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Response to Cofitachequi (Reply #24)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:51 AM

43. Oh, what name did you post under before?

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #43)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:26 PM

261. The first thing I thought, too...

 

I smell zombies.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #261)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 01:50 AM

648. Salty zombies? n/t

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Response to Cofitachequi (Reply #24)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:53 AM

49. So, whose sock are you?

 

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Response to Post removed (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:44 AM

30. Welcome to DU

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:30 AM

10. A apt title for all of your posts

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:22 AM

132. +1000000000000000000000000000

 

The egomaniac is strong in this one.

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Response to LordGlenconner (Reply #132)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:11 PM

423. You're just now noticing that?

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:37 PM

471. ~~~+++++++•••+++++++~~~

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:30 AM

11. Prepare yourself Will. But yes, Iraq was a lemon

Rec.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:49 PM

305. lemonade

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Response to Supersedeas (Reply #305)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:27 PM

464. No way in hell lemonade can be made out of what Bush did there.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:31 AM

12. No fear!

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #12)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:47 AM

35. Will had no fear fighting the lies they were telling to get their war on.

He does not strike me as a person who would be fearful now. to you and I will join you in your for Will.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #35)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:51 AM

43. Well

"Will had no fear fighting the lies they were telling to get their war on."

...he definitely has a selective memory.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024613725#post14

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Response to ProSense (Reply #43)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:24 AM

136. Well

Someone has a selective memory and a habit of posting irrelevant stuff. * You really didn't look at the link you posted did you?

http://www.amazon.com/War-Iraq-What-Team-Doesnt/dp/1893956385

That's a lot more than what most here ever did.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:31 AM

13. Time once again

to start using the Ignore feature.

I've got to learn that sometimes it's just not worth fully emptying the septic tank every three months.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #13)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:57 PM

450. +1. Some people here are really useless.

 

All drama, all the time.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:32 AM

14. what did romney say?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:32 AM

15. The Obama-bot signal will go out on this one!

 

Prepare for incoming!

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Response to quinnox (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:47 AM

36. The "bot signal" is the OP. n/t

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Response to quinnox (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:49 AM

39. Apparently the Bat-Shit signal went out first

on this one.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #39)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:16 AM

115. +1

 

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #39)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:51 AM

200. Nailed it! nt

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #39)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:07 PM

420. Boom goes the dynamite!...nt

Sid

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #39)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:30 PM

467. +10000

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:33 AM

16. You are correct, the Valkyrie-like propaganda swarm notwithstanding. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:36 AM

17. Doubling down on calling the President ugly names

isn't my idea of DU discussion, Will.

What's next?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:37 AM

18. This us not for you, but the swarm

 


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”


Teddy Roosevelt said this during World War 1. It truly still applies today.

Oh and they will not be happy until either you shut up, or go away.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #18)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:43 AM

26. Thanks for that, Nadine.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #18)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:50 AM

40. And someone said they hadn't seen any of these here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4728184

And just look. Someone wanders off the reservation and they come crawling out of the woodwork.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:39 AM

21. Kick for the ugly truth.

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:39 AM

22. I thought you were referring to my local congresscritter

who really *is* a car salesman...

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:40 AM

23. So who has the jury results?

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 09:30 PM

602. Here you go ...

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:42 AM

25. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

The Emperor has no clothes....

Just sickening...."We did not grab its resources for our own gain"....really? Fucking REALLY???



This will surely bring the cheerleaders and sycophants out in screeching harmony as they howl and bay at the gall of a non-believer challenging Dear Leader....

What is TRULY nauseating is that these are the very same people that USED to howl in outrage when Bush the Dumber did the same things, but somehow now find them not only justifiable, but acceptable...

Fucking hypocrites all...

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #25)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:22 PM

363. Anyone who puts Obama in the same flea bag is not seeing things in true perspective.

disgusting

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Response to lumpy (Reply #363)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:42 PM

396. Nobody "PUT" Obama in the "same flea bag".

The President jumped in there all by himself with his comments yesterday.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #396)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:53 PM

481. You did. Too bad you misinterpreted his statements.

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #25)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:25 PM

460. "dear leader"

the ONLY people I have ever heard utter that phrase is by those on the right.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:43 AM

27. Not sure what Obama was supposed to say.

It's not like he ended the war and brought the troops home the second he took office, he continued the path that was already taken and did not even apologize for it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:43 AM

29. Oh, that's OK. The Pope is all too familiar with CYA statements.

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:44 AM

31. Pathetic.

 

and utterly nauseating, at least you got that right.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #31)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:45 AM

33. So, to be clear, you are okay with Obama justifying Bush's war, yes?

 

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #33)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:50 AM

41. bullshit. Iraq was a dumb war, Obama has said that countless times

 

and he was not 'justifying' it -

the crazed rw and bagger element are putting that out to cover Bush's insane murderous asscrack. Too bad others are following blindly, like reading the Bush/Cheney anti-matter Tiger Beat edition.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #41)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:54 AM

54. Um...yes...he absolutely justified it...

 

...by saying it WASN'T a land grab like Putin in Crimea, but in order to "free" the Iraqi people...Which is a HUMUNGOUS pile of stinking bullshit as has been proven in the 11 years since bush first invaded...

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #54)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:30 AM

154. um no he absolutely did NOT justify the invasion

he only justified the route the US took to get there, going through international channels, etc.

not to put too fine a point on it, but many folks here need to actually take obama's manner and approach as example and - yes - inspiration for actually stopping long enough to look at potential consequences for every step he makes

like many here, i was salivating to see the bush admin skewered for all their many crimes. but after giving it considerabel considered thought, i had to ask myself -

to what end?

now, no one is more outraged by what those people did to our sense of decency and our reputation around the world, not to mention the direct victims.

but look at it this way: obama came in with goodgawda'mighty, a rather dizzily spinning array of loaded plates, not to mention an agenda he hoped to put forward that would benefit you and me and our fellow citizens.

hence, lily ledbetter, close quantanomo (which only congress stymied), aca, etcetcetc.

do you think any single one of those would have gotten anywhere had his administration gone after the previous one for their crimes?

nope. not one. nada.

if you think the populace is divided now, think what that move would have done. mind-boggling.

there are many moves obama has made that have upset me, but when it comes to these big ticket issues like russia, i'm in awe of how carefully he measures every word that comes out of his mouth and every step he takes.

he is the furthest thing from the dry drunk cowboy wannabe i can imagine.

be careful to examine what you're suggesting for signs you are condemning obama for not being that mywayorthehiway tyrant we are all so glad has slunk into the recesses of of bad repressed memories.

for now; at some point, perhaps next admin, we can review those war crimes, etc. including what might be considered obama's own (one of the things i'm not so happy about; but hey, what would you do if the military brass marched in to the oval office and laid out an intercepted plan? go in with tanks? ignore them on principle, risking maybe hundreds or more american lives? or approach it strategically? just sayin').

but for now, i cannot begin to express how comforted i am by the measured and careful wisdom this man exhibits in the clutch. he's pretty damn amazing, and i know for sure i would not begin to have a prayer i could do any better, and know of no one on the planet who could top him.

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Response to ellennelle (Reply #154)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:34 AM

164. Aaah...so you like playing twister too??

 

I see...he didn't justify the invasion, just the way we justified getting to the point where we invaded a sovereign country that hadn't attacked us and then we stole all of their shit...justifiably of course...



Hey, I wouldn't play poker with the guy either, but that doesn't mean he hasn't sold us a bill of goods on many, MANY occasions and on many, MANY issues...

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #164)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:44 PM

397. far better flexible than rigid

less breakage, all the way 'round.

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #164)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 05:18 PM

512. The American congress voted for the invasion (sort of), and...

Dubya formed his coalition of the willing.

This is close to how we are supposed to declare war and other countries contributed to the war effort.

I was about as opposed to the war as you can get, but President Obama is right. He is on solid ground to point out the differences between our actions in Iraq and Russia's actions in Crimea. We did not act unilaterally, and if pointing it out to Putin improves the chances of him modifying his behavior - then I think its a good move.

I think that this would be a really, really shitty time to agree with Putin.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #512)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 02:01 AM

650. Say what? You do realize that BushCo lied and presented knowingly false evidence to the UN, right?

Are you intentionally justifying BushCo's war crimes or was that an accident?

Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. BushCo claimed he did and that was our reason for picking Iraq to attack. They fabricated "evidence" to justify it. We killed over 100,000 innocent Iraqis, thousands of our troops got killed, our troops are doing way to many tours with not enough time home. Then we tortured the Iraqis and stole their oil. You think that was okay?

Wow. This is exactly what that other OP was about, people really are justifying the illegal invasion of Iraq just to defend Obama. Incredible.

Disagreeing with what Obama said is in no way agreeing with Putin. That is a very simplistic way of thinking. People can easily disagree with two different people at the same time.

Obama could just as easily have said Iraq was a bad idea, he voted against it but that two wrongs don't make a right. Better yet, he could have done something about prosecuting the war criminals.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #650)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:57 AM

682. Yes, I'm aware of all that.

It was utterly fucking despicable, but we didn't just line troops up on the border and annex.

The fact that they (Bush/Cheney/Powell) deceived the 'coalition of the willing' in order to go to war, does not put it on the same level as Putin's actions. If Putin wants to annex, he can make the case with other nations (even deceive them) - make them believe Crimea did something wrong and work with those other nations to bring about change.

That's the issue here: Is Putin justified because we did the same thing? No, he's not justified because we didn't do the same thing.

I'm with the president on this - what we did in Iraq (while despicable) is not the same as Russia's actions in Crimea.

I'm in no way justifying Bush's war. I'm merely pointing out that it is different than Putin's war.

Y'all need to get past this whole prosecute Bush/Cheney/Powell bullshit. I realize it seems like a good idea, but the arguments AGAINST are reality based - while the arguments FOR are a revenge oriented exercise in futility.

The impeachment of Clinton was politically costly to the republicans - if the democrats pursued something like that it would take decades to recover from the political fallout.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #682)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 01:42 PM

696. Prosecuting war criminals is absoutley NOT "a revenge oriented exercise in futility".

If Nixon had been prosecuted it would have sent a message about how the rule of law applies to everybody. A lot of the people who were around back then wouldn't have survived to help in the war crimes of BushCo.

If BushCo had been prosecuted it would have sent that same message and gotten a lot of criminals out of our govt and military and would have restored people's faith in our govt. As it is a lot of people have given up on it because what's the point? If they can lie us into a war, and this is common knowledge at this point, not a conspiracy theory, and get away with it then our govt IS above the law after all. Not at all what the founding fathers had in mind.

For anyone, you or the president, to minimize the war crime is to enable more of this in the future and to diminish our standing in the world community.

You can't possibly think the impeachment of Clinton is on any level the same as prosecuting BushCo for war crimes? Your comparisons are astounding. That again is minimizing the gravity of the situation. We are talking about war crimes. Not a blow job.

And while you're comparing apples to oranges... how many people died in the Crimea annexation? How many people, people, not just American troops, died in the Iraq War? How many people were tortured in the Crimea annexation? How many people were tortured in the Iraq War? Did the people of Crimea get to vote for the annexation? Did the people of Iraq get to vote for the Iraq War?

Minimizing it absolutely is justifying it. And calling the prosecutions "a revenge oriented exercise in futility" is enabling it. Do you think we should just toss out our entire judicial system then?

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #54)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:16 PM

632. Right, and since we annexed Iraq, your point is justified...

oh... wait...

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Response to Recursion (Reply #632)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:37 AM

673. No, you're right, we just stayed there for 11 years and fucked it up beyond recognition...

 

...annexing it would have had a much better outcome...

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #673)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:47 AM

678. Seriously? You think annexation would have been better?

That's possibly the craziest thing I've heard in months.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #678)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:50 AM

679. I'm sorry, how many tens of thousands were killed in the annexation of Crimea...??

 

...get back to me when you have a number...

We "liberated" Iraq back to the fucking stone age....Crimea voted itself back into the arms of Russia without so much as a single J-Dam being used....Which one caused more damage?

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #679)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:55 AM

681. We don't know yet; it just started. Chechnya isn't a good omen.

Russia doesn't have some magic formula to quell insurgencies. Now, if the ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars don't end up starting an insurgency, and the Ruthenian Ukrainians don't turn irredentist, everybody might come out of here blood free. Here's hoping.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #681)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 09:14 AM

684. Non-one knows what the future holds on anything...

 

...I'm still not convinced that Pootey-Poot is done on his European Annexation Tour 2014, but we shall see.

One thing we do know is that he didn't try polishing that turd by going to the UN with fake anthrax and the false threat of non-existent WMD's...

IMHO both situations could have/should have been dealt with differently, but the turd polishing by Obama was totally unnecessary...

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #684)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 09:17 AM

685. Didn't he express "concerns" about Russians in Estonia?

It will be interesting if we wind up with NATO going right up to a new Greater Russia.

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #33)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:40 PM

283. Maybe you interpreted Obama's statments about Iraq as justifying Bush's War without truly

realizing that was not Obama's intent. Some of us had that knee-jerk reaction to Obama's statement until we read it a few times, reflected on it and came to realize it was not a justification for the Iraq War. I felt that Obama could have used this opportunity to emphasize the fact that Bush has been thoroughly castigated by the bulk of Americans and that he, President Obama would agree that it is a blot on US foreign policy as well as shame on this country conducted by and using false claims by the Bush administration.
But I am not Obama's speech editor.

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Response to lumpy (Reply #283)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:41 PM

285. Why would he not just simply say neither actions were right?

 

Much simpler, no need for parsing, just a straight forward response...

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #285)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:04 PM

331. I agree with you. Why he didn't use a more direct approach emphasizing how he and most

Americans believe Bush's War was an unforgivable act against the people of Iraq baffles me. He missed that opportunity to speak for the US American people re.Iraq.

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Response to lumpy (Reply #331)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:27 PM

372. I'm baffled too. Two wrongs don't make a right. End of speech.

 

He could have made it so easy just by stating the obvious imo.

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Response to Rex (Reply #372)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:42 PM

394. I agree. However I don't agree Obama commited a 'wrong'. The Iraq part of his speech was not

on spot and neglected to reflect thoughts of the American people as well as his own re. Bush War. Hardly a justification of Bush's action against Iraq

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Response to lumpy (Reply #394)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:50 PM

404. Well he did say in his own words he opposed the war.

 

I read that and believe him. The wrong came from a prior administration that illegally invaded a sovereign nation based on lies and falsehoods. Obama simply could have said the Iraq war was wrong.

He inherited this mess and I don't think it is wrong of him to tell the truth about the BFEE and their war of aggression. He could even point out how he opposes this type of foreign policy and THEN point out all that is wrong with Russia's invasion.

IOW, I don't expect Obama to own the Iraq Invasion. People that do must be in denial about who started the dam thing!

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #33)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 05:46 PM

526. He didn't justify it. I heard what the President said, and no way did he

defend it.

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Response to Kahuna (Reply #526)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 06:51 PM

557. Agreed

The legal term is that President Obama distinguished the two situations

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Response to Whisp (Reply #31)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 08:17 PM

580. You whine a lot! n-t

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #580)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 08:21 PM

581. You follow me a lot!

 

You like me, you really really like me.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:45 AM

32. K&R

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:47 AM

34. Disappointed to see you doubling down on calling the president names.

No, I'm not telling you to stop. I just figured you might want to know that some people don't appreciate seeing that here. Just in case you care about that sort of thing.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:52 AM

46. "some people" *hint hint*

 

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:54 AM

50. I'm hoping midterm election rules kick in soon

Where we all go back to supporting Democrats.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #50)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:22 AM

131. Name calling aside

 

We can't support the president when he makes statements like this one. Nor should we be silent of same.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #131)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:04 PM

221. +1000 nt

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #131)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:30 PM

266. The name calling is not an "aside."

It's the freaking point.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #266)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:43 PM

291. No, it isn't the point of the OP

 

But it is a distraction.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #291)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:46 PM

297. It was quite intentional. nt

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #297)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:46 PM

299. Well, duh

 

nt

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #299)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:48 PM

303. Pointless. (nt goes here)

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #303)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:49 PM

306. Read the op

 

It makes a very sharp point. Of course those who don't want to discuss it fixate on the title, but the OP itself is right on point.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #306)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:53 PM

312. Oh I read it....

I just don't rely on someone else to tell me what I read. Get it?

What you're trying to impose here is your opinion, nothing more.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #312)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:55 PM

316. And your opinion of the OPs point is....

 

??

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #316)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:56 PM

322. I suppose you missed it while you

were busy telling the rest of us what it meant.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #131)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 05:43 PM

524. Statements like WHAT!? No way did he condone iraq. He just said that..

at least we didn't do to them what Russia has done in Ukraine. That's it. Anybody who expected the President of the USA, any president..to say..Yeah, I know it was an illegal war, but two wrongs don't make a right..is missing some brain cells, IMO.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #50)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:28 AM

148. TOS

 

Vote for Democrats.
.....
But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where were a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice


Since the President is not a nominee in the 2014 or 2016 election cycles, I do not understand how this rule would change anything in regards to supporting or not supporting his actions...

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #50)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:30 PM

498. It'll be too late by then. And supporting Democrats on DU will never happen again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110215862

Because the dripping disdain and contempt will have done its job and those who may have wanted 'more Democrats elected to public office' will be too ashamed by the constant derision to speak out or vote.

All of this disregards the GOP and others doing massive damage in every venue, taking away the rights of people and openly promoting oppressing the poor and minorities, and doing their best to shut people out of elections.

But the knife in the hand of a 'friend' cuts deepest to leave a wound that will never heal.

The resulting apathy is what fascists count upon to increase their power, normalize their rule and implement economic stratification which benefits the 1% while the only instrument the people had to resist, the government organized by the people, is left fo wither on the vine as people are too cynical to do their part to keep it alive. And some wonder why they have no say anymore, as when they had a chance, they didn't exercise their say with words of support or encouraging others to resist the real agents of repression.

And because they didn't really believe in democracy, or the people, they believed the words of the corporatists who own the media or saw they were powerful, and refused to take their own power at the voting booth. It's not a matter of attacking people only, but the ideas they work to bring to fruition, and there are always the one who pile on because they see it's popular, and discard the ideas they claim so vigorously to support.

Many see the power wielded by the neo-cons, and have not realized it was against our ideas and our candidates that they were fighting. War always transforms the nation waging it so that it is impossible to go back to the world as it was before, even though Obama has tried. We are ceding the ground to them here by going after Democrats, as planned by the purveyors of opinion.

Their attempts to overthrow the engine of our rights is not an outrage here, but any word or deed is used to attack the government and all members of change, shows support for the status quo benefitting the powerful, even though it's on the subconscious level.

And people want to get along, so the more they hear disdain and contempt, even without facts or logic or substance, just emotional appeal, they know that's the way to survive in the world or an online forum, and they repeat what they read.

Basic psychological training. It's been working for the status quo for over 40 years.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #498)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 06:25 PM

540. I fear you're right

and with so many people opposing the Democratic Party and its representatives, it makes it easier for RWers to stir up trouble. I believe that is part of what is happening. No, I don't mean the OP. I know he's a Democrat, but I am disappointed by his hyperbole.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #498)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 08:43 PM

589. Excellent post. nt

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Response to freshwest (Reply #498)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 04:39 PM

700. Well said...nt

Sid

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:54 AM

55. Also, No Feedback Within The Thread from the OP

This is just rhetorical bomb throwing.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #55)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:01 AM

71. The OP threw a bomb....and disappeared into the night.

 

Pretty pathetic actually.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #55)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:47 PM

300. Rhetorical Bomb Throwing

You got that right, Professor.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #55)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:34 PM

469. Yep, drop the turd and watch it stink up...

everything. Pathetic.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:55 AM

58. Well-reasoned discussions of facts are welcome...

avoiding hyperbole. As always, including context and perspective helps.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:56 AM

59. I would be one of them.

Probably won't do any good, but thanks, Skinner.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:57 AM

62. I am shocked you forgot to capitalize the word President

 

Or follow the archaic (only the NYT uses it anymore,) Mr. President.

I will quote Former President Teddy Roosevelt to you too.


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”


He wrote that during a very ugly period of US history. A few folks even went to jail for being loud mouths and speaking against the President. Oh Mr. Pitt's words are really mild here. I don't know if they teach that in school anymore. But one of my instructors in graduate school, he was a specialist in the period in question, wondered aloud if the only reason Teddy remained out of jail was he was a former President who thought WW I was a really bad idea, for the US to intervene that is.

We are now living through almost sixteen years of a toxic environment that while not quite that bad, it's bad enough. The early years I used that with conservatives, now with liberals (truly conservadems). Some things never change. And one of the things that never should change is that Presidents are not kings and should be critiqued, especially when they step in it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #62)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:58 PM

451. You really, really need to locate and dust off your trusty Stylebook

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #451)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:28 PM

466. !!!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #466)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:00 PM

484. More evidence she sneeks a peek at her 'Iggy' list and actually learns something

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #484)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:02 PM

486. Of course.

Some folks just LOVE attention.

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #484)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 01:54 AM

649. Teddy Roosevelt was actually a war hawk

who was highly critical not only of Wilson's official neutrality, but also of other groups of Americans (especially of German and Irish heritage) who were speaking out against potential American involvement in the war. Here's what he had to say to a Congressman who voted against the 1917 war resolution:

http://www.raabcollection.com/theodore-roosevelt-autograph/theodore-roosevelt-signed-early-world-war-i-theodore-roosevelt-tells

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #649)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 02:43 AM

658. And how does that pertain to English grammar rules for capitalization?



capitalization

Avoid unnecessary capitalization. Capitalize proper nouns. Common nouns such as "university" and "president" should be capitalized only when used as part of a full name for a person, place or thing: The University at Buffalo is a research institution. The university is among the nation’s top research institutions. President John B. Simpson served as an administrator in California before coming to Buffalo. The president is a native of California and completed his bachelor’s degree there.


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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #658)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 02:56 AM

659. Your post I was replying to had nothing to do with capitalization

It was a quote ascribed to Teddy Roosevelt, which was "explained" earlier in this thread.

This was the link you provided:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024735661#post74

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #62)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:50 PM

477. Capitalization is only

necessary if using the name; ie President Obama. In your reference to Roosevelt the word 'former' also is not capitalized. During my years of professional journalism I relied upon the AP Style Guide.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:03 AM

77. I know you're a tolerant guy...

but trolls have been banned for less. In many cases, it isn't the actual topic that brings about a banning but the pure disruptive nature they bring to DU.

These posts are disruptive to healthy discussion. And the previous OP was downright nasty.

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Response to Phentex (Reply #77)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:10 AM

98. When people see something wrong and just nod politely, nothing changes

No government in history has ever changed because people just sit back and nod politely while hoping the people in power will do the right thing.

To pull our country to the left requires people to be outspoken and demanding of those in power. It requires people to stand up and yell loudly when they see things being done wrong.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #98)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:34 PM

381. When my kids used to yell loudly, be demanding and lippy they didn't get the response they were

expecting.

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Response to lumpy (Reply #381)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:36 PM

385. We are not children and the government is not our parent

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #385)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:18 PM

432. That's why we shouldn't act like children

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Response to lumpy (Reply #432)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:35 PM

437. Why do you think we got things like the right to vote for women

 

or the civil rights legislation? I know, people sat quietly and said pretty please. NOT

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Response to Phentex (Reply #77)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:24 AM

138. The title of the OP is unsavory

 

But the content of it is true. The Iraq war should be called what it was, a money laundering clusterfuck.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #138)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:04 PM

416. which is why

I said it's not about the topic

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Response to Phentex (Reply #77)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:28 AM

147. Be careful what you wish for

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:08 AM

90. I wouldn't phrase it like the OP has

but I understand the jaded tone. Even while saying he opposed the Iraq War, Obama framed its legacy as a triumph of democracy for the people of Iraq and the US as good faith diplomats in pre-war build-up. That sort of disingenuous politicking is maddening in its denial, and maybe worse its adherence to Bush-era spin of this utterly failed and utterly indefensible war.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:10 AM

97. That's the word I had in mind.

Disappointed. There are better ways to make a point.

Thanks for your input, Skinner.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:14 AM

107. I'm disappointed to see the President saying those things.

Last edited Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:08 PM - Edit history (1)

Much more significant than what some guy writes on a discussion forum.

I understand what President Obama is trying to do, but really, REALLY badly done. Feeds into the worst types of revision on Iraq that is going on.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #107)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:56 PM

449. I am disappointed the President didn't do a good job in phrasing his response regarding Iraq War.

I don't believe he was trying to justify Bush's War based on his often stated opinions of that war.
He should of amplified his opinion of that destructive action by the Bush administration.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:51 AM

199. Thank you Skinner for weighing in on this.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:58 AM

210. Skinner, when is enough, enough? nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #210)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:28 PM

264. I have the same question.

When, indeed?

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #264)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:38 PM

277. Ultimately...this is the administrator's sandbox, and I will abide by any decision they make. But I

 

think certain behavior is troubling.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #277)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:45 PM

294. Of course we always do....

It just seems some are provided more leeway to disrupt than others.

This behavior is the very definition of disruptive and divisive. Not to mention, intentional.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #294)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:55 PM

318. Well...I think we have it within our power to voice our discontent. All alerts go to admin, and

 

while I do not expect admin to read all of our posts in GD, I suspect all alerts get read.

Even if alerts do not produce a hide, they get read. And I think admin is perceptive enough to differentiate between alert stalking, and genuine concern for what this site contains.

On a side note.....I think we are witnessing an audition.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #318)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:07 PM

338. Interesting

Audition for?

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Response to treestar (Reply #338)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:16 PM

351. Sweet, sweet Omidayar money abounds in the leftie blogosphere....you'll note the

 

defections from FDL?

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #318)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:17 PM

352. That would explain much....

Quite the demonstration of some mad skillz in divisive, shit-flinging.

No doubt highly marketable in this arena.

Taking your wisdom to heart, our Administrators are quite capable.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #318)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:48 PM

401. "I think we are witnessing an audition", I completely agree...

and the recent flamebait threads are probably going to be added to the resume as references.

It is nauseating to see DU being used in this way, imo.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #318)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 07:10 PM

566. "On a side note.....I think we are witnessing an audition."

Ahhhh... coming from almost anyone else here I wouldn't know if I would believe this was true. But coming from you, I am much more inclined to believe it. And that sure as hell explains the really moronic, over the top, embarrassing, and beyond juvenile language coming out of The Pitt lately.

What's so funny is that I agree that the president's language is disturbing on this issue. Yes, I understand the context but I think that anyone that even PRETENDS to provide justification for the illegal clusterfuck that is the war in Iraq needs to sit down somewhere. I understand that he was always in opposition to this war and that this was in response to Putin doing the "but, but you did it too!" But I would have liked more than anything for the president to say "yeah, we did it and it was wrong. But so is Russia invading Crimea."

Having said that, this OP is still stupid beyond all measure. In "auditioning" for the folks in GD that absolutely LIVE for this divisive pointless bullshit (see the rec list) and whatever else is out there, the OP has torpedoed anything he ever had resembling credibility.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #566)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 07:20 PM

569. There is little money for the "Left" to make during times of effective Democratic

 

governance...so the generation of revenue depends on the dissemination of FUD. There's sweet Omidayar money to be made..and you don't get it without auditioning and bringing an audience.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #569)

Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:26 AM

672. "Effective Democratic Governance"

 

ROFLMFAO

You have a very myopic view of effective democratic governance. Unfortunately we are in the midst of the disintegration of our Democracy. Now if you wanted to rephrase that to read "effective Corporatocracy Governance" you might have a valid point.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #277)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:15 PM

348. "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others". -nt

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #264)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 07:42 PM

573. Same here. This is an important midterm year.

Do we need this level of attempted vote suppression?
Do we need the constant bashing of Democrats? (name calling is hardly criticism)
Do we need the daily FUD?

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #210)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:25 PM

370. This place needs more principled disagreeement and less pandering to prevailing views.

 

I often don't agree with Will. In this case, I think the Teddy Roosevelt rule should apply.

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #370)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:28 PM

374. I agree there should be criticism of the President...but calling him a "piece of shit" and posting

 

incorrect information about the ACA is not that.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #374)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:32 PM

379. Like I said, I disagree with both the content and the style on this topic.

 

Disagreement isn't something I come here to escape.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #379)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:41 PM

392. I relish disagreement. I just wish for smarter participants. nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #210)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:10 PM

492. Hungry for blood, hunh?

I've seen posters using almost the exact phrasing that Dick Cheney did to attack Snowden. Should we get rid of them, too?

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #492)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:24 PM

497. We aren't on Snowden Underground. I've yet to read anything in the TOS that

 

requires support of a coward charged with espionage...let me know when that changes.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #497)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:33 PM

499. TOS allows for criticism of Dems.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #499)

Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:41 PM

502. And? If you think calling someone a "piece of shit" is merely criticism, then may I call you

 

that?

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Response to msanthr