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Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:40 PM

Even if Trayvon Martin Did Beat Down George Zimmerman, He Shouldn't Have Been Shot

Bottom line for me is, even if Zimmerman really did get beat down by the kid, he should have just taken his lumps and accepted the ass-whoopin' for stalking the kid in the first place. If I were a 17-year-old being followed by some strange older man, especially one of a different race, I'd be wary as fuck and tempted to confront him myself.

You can't blame the kid for getting physical with him, when this self-appointed vigilante decided to play hero and take the law into his own hands. I mean, if the dude had just stayed in his car and the kid had pulled him out and started wailing on him that would be one thing, but it sounds like this creep flat-out stalked the kid and moved in on him, escalating the situation unnecessarily and provoking the beat-down, then escalating it even further by drawing his gun and shooting the kid.

It's really hard to claim self-defense when you go out of your way to look for trouble. CCW permits don't automatically make you a deputy of the law. They are only for defending yourself if trouble finds YOU. Not the other way around.

He really should have been arrested at least for voluntary manslaughter and forced to post bail. Can't really blame the black community for feeling slighted when, if the roles were reversed, you know damn straight the black kid would have been arrested and tried as an adult.

A real sad situation, all the way around.

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Arrow 42 replies Author Time Post
Reply Even if Trayvon Martin Did Beat Down George Zimmerman, He Shouldn't Have Been Shot (Original post)
LAGC Mar 2012 OP
HipChick Mar 2012 #1
arthritisR_US Mar 2012 #4
Tejas Mar 2012 #2
da_decider Mar 2012 #3
FarPoint Mar 2012 #5
Crunchy Frog Mar 2012 #21
Hoyt Mar 2012 #6
Tejas Mar 2012 #28
NOLALady Mar 2012 #7
Ruby the Liberal Mar 2012 #9
EOTE Mar 2012 #32
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2012 #10
gateley Mar 2012 #11
CakeGrrl Mar 2012 #12
Quixote1818 Mar 2012 #13
obamanut2012 Mar 2012 #31
Kahuna Mar 2012 #23
JI7 Mar 2012 #36
RZM Mar 2012 #8
Quixote1818 Mar 2012 #14
hack89 Mar 2012 #27
dkf Mar 2012 #15
Quixote1818 Mar 2012 #16
Art_from_Ark Mar 2012 #17
dkf Mar 2012 #18
Quixote1818 Mar 2012 #20
Whiskeytide Mar 2012 #33
Art_from_Ark Mar 2012 #22
dkf Mar 2012 #34
Art_from_Ark Mar 2012 #38
JI7 Mar 2012 #37
Major Nikon Mar 2012 #19
ellisonz Mar 2012 #24
backscatter712 Mar 2012 #25
ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #26
LAGC Mar 2012 #29
obamanut2012 Mar 2012 #30
GumboYaYa Mar 2012 #35
alcibiades_mystery Mar 2012 #39
pettypace Mar 2012 #40
flvegan Mar 2012 #41
Name removed Feb 2014 #42

Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:43 PM

1. and don't forget the Sandford PD tried to cover it up..

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Response to HipChick (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:49 PM

4. I am as angry with them as I am with

Zimmerman

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:47 PM

2. Would love to know your thoughts on rape.

 

LAGC

0. Even if Trayvon Martin Did Beat Down George Zimmerman, He Shouldn't Have Been Shot

Bottom line for me is, even if Zimmerman really did get beat down by the kid, he should have just taken his lumps and accepted the ass-whoopin' for stalking the kid in the first place. If I were a 17-year-old being followed by some strange older man, especially one of a different race, I'd be wary as fuck and tempted to confront him myself.

You can't blame the kid for getting physical with him, when this self-appointed vigilante decided to play hero and take the law into his own hands. I mean, if the dude had just stayed in his car and the kid had pulled him out and started wailing on him that would be one thing, but it sounds like this creep flat-out stalked the kid and moved in on him, escalating the situation unnecessarily and provoking the beat-down, then escalating it even further by drawing his gun and shooting the kid.

It's really hard to claim self-defense when you go out of your way to look for trouble. CCW permits don't automatically make you a deputy of the law. They are only for defending yourself if trouble finds YOU. Not the other way around.

He really should have been arrested at least for voluntary manslaughter and forced to post bail. Can't really blame the black community for feeling slighted when, if the roles were reversed, you know damn straight the black kid would have been arrested and tried as an adult.

A real sad situation, all the way around.





Thank you for endorsing assault in a public forum.

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:48 PM

3. what the hell are you talking about?

???????

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:52 PM

5. I never heard anything about

Trayvon being raped . Do you have a link?

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:20 AM

21. I think it was Trayvon who ostensibly raped Zimmerman...

At least according to the "logic" of that post.

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:54 PM

6. I know your guns mean everything to you, but poster has a dang good point.

I hope that Stand Your Ground BS gets closely re-examined too.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 10:11 AM

28. Trayvon "stood his ground".

 

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 12:00 AM

7. What are your thoughts

on shooting unarmed teenagers who post stupid pictures on facebook?

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 12:02 AM

9. Er, wut?

Are you suggesting that someone shouldn't fight back against someone trying to rape them?

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #9)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 10:40 AM

32. I don't think that's what's being said at all.

I think the OP is saying that if you stalk someone and then confront them aggressively, don't be surprised if you get attacked. But that does NOT give you the right to use your gun to defend yourself in a fight that you started.

On edit: I thought you were replying to the OP.

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 12:25 AM

10. If Zimmerman got beat up for chasing this kid, not only did he deserve it...

but he should've had his evil ass royally kicked.

Zimmerman was a murderous a-hole.

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 12:28 AM

11. I didn't interpret it that way -- why did you? I just thought it meant if Trayvon had fought in

self defense. The OP did NOT endorse assault, in fact said "...if the dude had just stayed in his car and the kid had pulled him out and started wailing on him, that would be one thing..."

which I interpret to mean the OP would NOT condone assault that was unprovoked.

I'm always puzzled when someone twists another's meaning in a negative way. I don't understand why people do that -- could you explain?

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 12:42 AM

12. "Assault"? As far as I'm concerned, ONLY Trayvon had a claim to "self-defense".

And that's IF he actually hit Zimmerman.

Did Zimmerman 'ask for it'? Damn right. He was advised NOT to get out of the car and pursue this kid, and he defied that recommendation.

Zimmerman deserved whatever he got. If I'm walking down a street minding my own business, I'm not going to let someone advance on me just because they don't like the way I look and threaten my life with a weapon without doing something about it - if it's within my power to react.

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 01:23 AM

13. Way to flip it around, what about rape victims who break the nose of their attacker?

In a rape, the victim is minding their own business just as Martin was doing. Your argument is backwards and lakes common sense. What you are saying is a rape victim should not be able to retaliate.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Reply #13)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 10:37 AM

31. Yup, that's exactly the poster's argument

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 08:32 AM

23. Wow! Really? So now Martin defending himself

Equals assault? That kind of thinking, is why Trayvon lies dead today.

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Response to Tejas (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:33 PM

36. Trayvon is the person equivalent to the Rape Victim, and Zimmerman the Rapist

 

if a Rapist goes after a woman and gets close enough to her that she strikes back before giving him a chance to "explain or show" why he is after her . he starts to feel threatened by her attacks and shoots her.

if a man runs after a woman like this should she allow him to explain before striking at him ?

especially when it's dark and without others around ?

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 12:00 AM

8. At what point though do you take drastic action to stop the beating?

 

People are killed all the time by unarmed assailants. Hands and feet can be deadly weapons. If the choice is being beaten for an indeterminate amount of time or shooting somebody and possibly getting charged I would probably opt for the latter.

That being said, I don't know what was going on here. We have a report from a witness that says there was a fight going on, but so far I haven't seen any other evidence. We don't know who was where and doing what when the shots were fired. And there's the question of how the confrontation started in the first place. But where is the line in a fight where you can use deadly force to stop it?

I really don't know. But saying that people need to 'take beatings' isn't really going to fly. BTW, I say this as somebody who knew a person who was beaten to death in an argument over nothing.

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Response to RZM (Reply #8)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 01:36 AM

14. When someone throws rocks at a hornets nest and gets stung they don't have a right to burn it down



That being said if the hornets are about to kill you then then it's time to retaliate. However, I don't think a bloody nose an a cut on the head show it escalated to the point where bullets were needed. Far from it!

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Response to Quixote1818 (Reply #14)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 10:08 AM

27. Any blow to the head can be dangerous while leaving few physical marks

talk to any parent who has had a kid that suffered a sports concussion.

The trauma is internal and can be severe.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 01:54 AM

15. Isn't the point that any escalation is risky and the best course is to avoid it?

 

Trayvon may have felt justified if he did break Zimmerman's nose but what did it get him?

It's better to walk away from confrontations period.

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Response to dkf (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 01:58 AM

16. Agree 100%. Especially if you don't know the person. nt

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Response to dkf (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 02:03 AM

17. According to Trayvon's girlfriend,

walking away from a potential confrontation was exactly what Trayvon was trying to do.

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 02:12 AM

18. If that is true then the OP is off base.

 

We are operating on a lot of bits and pieces. What adds to the tragedy is that a more thorough investigation wasn't done from the get go.

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Response to dkf (Reply #18)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 02:23 AM

20. Makes you wonder how someone like Zimmerman would react?

I was just thinking that Zimmerman came across as really frustrated and angry at the idea of Trayvon or in his mind a criminal getting away, especially before the police got there. So how would he proceed to prevent this "criminal" from getting away? His neighbor described him as a Barney Fife type too so he was probably looking for the glory in catching someone. Seems to me he clearly was the type to follow Trayvon and even cut him off to prevent him from getting away. If Martin felt he was preventing him from going home and in his way his fight or flight instincts might have been in chaos and he felt a need to fight. But as you said we will probably never know.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Reply #20)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 11:27 AM

33. Good analysis...

... I think that's exactly what happened based upon piecing together what's being reported. Martin was trying to get away initially when he saw someone following him. Zimmerman pursued him because he believed Martin was up to no good, and Martin's efforts to evade him reinforced that in Zimmerman's mind. Zimmerman exited his car and confronted Martin - despite being told he shouldn't do that - because he believed Martin (who by now he was convinced was some nefarious character) would escape before the police arrived. Martin responded to Zimmerman's confrontation with violence and Zimmerman responded by pulling the gun and shooting him.

I think it all comes down to the very precise circumstances of Zimmerman's confrontation of Martin. If Zimmerman's confrontation was violent initially, then clearly Martin had the right to defend himself. Also, if Martin was trapped or cornered by Zimmerman, then attacking Zimmerman was probably a defensive response and was thus reasonable. Under either of these scenarios, Zimmerman would probably be guilty of something like manslaughter, despite SYG or traditional concepts of self defense.

However, if Zimmerman identified himself as some kind of neighborhood watch authority, and instructed Martin to stay put until the police arrived (or something to that effect), and Martin then attacked Zimmerman, that might change things. That could mean that Martin initiated the violent exchange.

Zimmerman's actions were certainly stupid. But being stupid is not a crime. His actions appear to have been motivated by a combination of racial prejudice, authority intoxication and a Barney Fife wannabe fixation on steroids. But being a dick - alone - is not a crime. There are a half dozen better ways Zimmerman should have handled this situation. For example, he should probably not have follwed Martin. But following him is not a crime. He certainly should not have confronted Martin. But confronting him was not a crime. I suspect the words he spoke to Martin were not polite or professional, but were probably laced with profanity and racial epithats. In otherwords, Zimmerman's actions likely smacked of redneckedness. But being a stupid redneck, speaking vulgarly and even calling someone names are generally not crimes.

People here want Zimmerman to be guilty of murder. That's not going to happen. I have not seen any reports to indicate that Zimmerman indescriminately gunned Martin down in cold blood. This death was horribly tragic and senseless, but at its core it seems to have resulted from confusion and misinterpretation. If Zimmerman's actions were unreasonable under the circumstances, and caused or substantively contributed to cause the confusion and misinterpretation that occurred that night (and personally I believe they did), then he should be charged with manslaughter.

Caveat: If - and only if - Zimmerman shot Martin after Martin had surrendered and was clearly no longer a threat, would the facts possibly support a charge of murder. But proving that would take more evidence than the chaos I heard on the 911 tape.

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Response to dkf (Reply #18)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:42 AM

22. According to various news reports:

Recounting her conversation with Martin, the teen girl said, "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man."

After a few minutes, the girl said, Martin thought he was safe. But eventually the man appeared again.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for?'" the girl said. "And the man said, 'What are you doing here?' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the [phone’s] headset just fell."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-20/news/31217172_1_teen-girl-abc-news-phone-logs

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #22)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:05 PM

34. The headset falling doesn't prove who became physical first.

 

I'm guessing that is what this case hinges on in terms of what to charge Zimmerman with.

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Response to dkf (Reply #34)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 11:37 PM

38. Where was the confrontation?

From what I hear, it was in the courtyard area, away from the street and away from Zimmerman's SUV. Trayvon knew he was being stalked and tried to run away. Zimmerman chased him and caught up with him.

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Response to dkf (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:36 PM

37. Trayvon WAS trying to get away, started walking faster than Running

 

but the fucking thug murderer creep Zimmerman started to go after him .

Trayvon was trying to fucking get away.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 02:13 AM

19. The problem is the Florida law specifically allows you to shoot first in that situation

Combine the Florida CCW law with the shoot first law and you basically get a license to kill for every gun nut that allows their aligator mouth to overload their canary ass.

Get into an argument with your neighbor over trash bags? Pop them in the chest twice, stand over them laughing, go back inside your home and never call 911. You won't be convicted and you can't be sued.

Think there's an intruder in your neighbor's back yard? Shoot them dead even if their mom owns the place. You won't be charged and you can't be sued.

Are you an old man who yells at kids to get off your lawn? If an adult confronts you for being an asshole, just pull out your gun and shoot them to death. You won't be convicted and you can't be sued.

Is there a drunk on your front porch ringing your doorbell? Don't bother calling the cops or just leaving your door locked and ignoring them. Just pop them where they stand even though they have their hands up. You won't be charged and you can't be sued.

Remember, once they are dead, there's only one version to the story and the DA has to prove your version is false. So aim high and empty the clip. It's in your best interest.

All of this thanks to the state of Florida who lets the LaPierre NRA nutbags write their laws. Trayvon Martin is not the only victim, he's just the last victim.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 09:54 AM

24. "Trayvon Martin is not the only victim, he's just the lastest* victim."

If only he was the "last victim..."

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 09:57 AM

25. Zimmerman instigated the fight. Trayvon was the one acting in self defense.

Trayvon was being stalked by a crazy man with a gun. I would have thrown punches too if I was Trayvon.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 10:08 AM

26. You might want to think that one through...

The logic you are using is that is someone is being attacked, they cannot use deadly force unless they see a weapon or one is being used...do you really want to do there?

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #26)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 10:33 AM

29. You know, I'm pretty pro-gun, but...

I think there's a big difference between someone defending themselves on their own property when the threat comes at them, versus going out of one's way to escalate a situation and put oneself in potential harm's way by looking for a fight.

I have no problem with "Castle laws" or even "Stand Your Ground," but the use of force needs to be proportionate to the actual threat. This boy posed no threat to Zimmerman until he intruded on HIS space and made it HIS business.

There has to be a higher bar when you use guns in public. I've never taken a CCW class, but from what I've heard one of the things they drill into you is to not act like law enforcement by trying to be a vigilante and taking the law into your own hands. From everything I've heard so far, it sounds like Zimmerman violated that cardinal rule.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 10:34 AM

30. Excellent point: CCW permits are for DEFENSIVE purposes

All classes and laws back that up, even the SYG law.

I was taught that brandishing and/or pre-emptively shooting were felonies, and persons doing either WOULD go to prison.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:19 PM

35. Sorry, but I disagree, you can blame Trayvon if he threw the first punch....

No amount of following, insulting, or racial bias allows another person to throw a punch and then beat someone. If the reports are true (and this is a big IF) that Trayvon threw the first punch and then continued to beat on Zimmerman while he was on the ground, Trayvon is the aggressor and the one who used excessive force. No court in America is going to convict someone of murder for defending himself in those circumstances.

This is all speculation right now as there are many facts left to be discovered, but if it turns out the way some witnesses are describing it with Trayvon throwing the first punch, it will be impossible to convict Zimmerman and the cops will have acted appropriately.

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Response to GumboYaYa (Reply #35)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 11:45 PM

39. No witnesses have reported seeing a first punch

 

Where did you see that? Or are you just lying?

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 11:49 PM

40. So if you were in Zimmerman's shoes

you would let your ass get kicked?

Probably not.


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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Mon Mar 26, 2012, 11:57 PM

41. Taking a lot of liberties in this case, eh?

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