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Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:44 AM

Keynes, on how society will eventually view excessive wealth acquisition as a mental illness.

This guy was a visionary.

"When the accumulation of wealth is no longer of high social importance, there will be great changes in the code of morals. We shall be able to rid ourselves of many of the pseudo-moral principles which have hag-ridden us for two hundred years, by which we have exalted some of the most distasteful of human qualities into the position of the highest virtues. We shall be able to afford to dare to assess the money-motive at its true value. The love of money as a possession -as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life -will be recognised for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease. All kinds of social customs and economic practices, affecting the distribution of wealth and of economic rewards and penalties, which we now maintain at all costs, however distasteful and unjust they may be in themselves, because they are tremendously useful in promoting the accumulation of capital, we shall then be free, at last, to discard. Of course there will still be many people with intense, unsatisfied purposiveness who will blindly pursue wealth-unless they can find some plausible substitute. But the rest of us will no longer be under any obligation to applaud and encourage them."

- from "Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren," 1930

http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf

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Reply Keynes, on how society will eventually view excessive wealth acquisition as a mental illness. (Original post)
reformist2 Mar 2014 OP
grahamhgreen Mar 2014 #1
cui bono Mar 2014 #7
calimary Mar 2014 #33
Moostache Mar 2014 #36
calimary Mar 2014 #49
reformist2 Mar 2014 #58
Moostache Mar 2014 #61
IrishAyes Mar 2014 #75
frazzled Mar 2014 #2
mopinko Mar 2014 #3
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #4
mopinko Mar 2014 #10
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #21
mopinko Mar 2014 #23
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #25
mopinko Mar 2014 #30
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #38
marions ghost Mar 2014 #41
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #42
marions ghost Mar 2014 #44
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #54
marions ghost Mar 2014 #56
cilla4progress Mar 2014 #51
marions ghost Mar 2014 #57
cilla4progress Mar 2014 #65
llmart Mar 2014 #72
mopinko Mar 2014 #73
IrishAyes Mar 2014 #77
cprise Mar 2014 #81
IrishAyes Mar 2014 #84
cui bono Mar 2014 #5
mopinko Mar 2014 #13
jtuck004 Mar 2014 #70
reformist2 Mar 2014 #6
fasttense Mar 2014 #12
JNelson6563 Mar 2014 #45
fasttense Mar 2014 #85
L0oniX Mar 2014 #18
cilla4progress Mar 2014 #52
freshwest Mar 2014 #59
L0oniX Mar 2014 #17
reformist2 Mar 2014 #24
IrishAyes Mar 2014 #78
Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #28
frazzled Mar 2014 #32
marions ghost Mar 2014 #37
IrishAyes Mar 2014 #79
grahamhgreen Mar 2014 #50
nyquil_man Mar 2014 #68
IrishAyes Mar 2014 #76
valerief Mar 2014 #8
hueymahl Mar 2014 #9
reformist2 Mar 2014 #26
greymattermom Mar 2014 #11
Trust Buster Mar 2014 #14
L0oniX Mar 2014 #15
rickyhall Mar 2014 #39
PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #86
Brainstormy Mar 2014 #16
cui bono Mar 2014 #20
reformist2 Mar 2014 #29
jsr Mar 2014 #19
Grins Mar 2014 #22
Dirty Socialist Mar 2014 #31
Epiphany4z Mar 2014 #27
Shankapotomus Mar 2014 #34
jwirr Mar 2014 #35
mountain grammy Mar 2014 #40
Iwillnevergiveup Mar 2014 #43
marions ghost Mar 2014 #46
reformist2 Mar 2014 #48
MindMover Mar 2014 #47
cilla4progress Mar 2014 #53
reformist2 Mar 2014 #55
IrishAyes Mar 2014 #80
blackspade Mar 2014 #60
Initech Mar 2014 #62
reformist2 Mar 2014 #63
illachick Mar 2014 #64
WhiteTara Mar 2014 #66
Trust Buster Mar 2014 #88
KrazyinKS Mar 2014 #67
IrishAyes Mar 2014 #69
Martin Eden Mar 2014 #71
TBF Mar 2014 #74
mckara Mar 2014 #82
Live and Learn Mar 2014 #83
Trust Buster Mar 2014 #87

Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:51 AM

1. Excellent description of the hoarding class:)

 

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:08 AM

7. It is sort of hoarding, coupled with competition though.

I think the competition plays a large part in it. And the high of making the deals. It's like gambling in a way, or playing a game, but with real lives and real money. If you think of it as winning, they just want to keep feeling that winning feeling all the time.

Now, holding onto it is definitely the hoarding part.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:10 AM

33. And THAT is an excellent name for them, grahamhgreen!

"The Hoarding Class." Because that's exactly what they're doing. They're not "job creators"! They're HOARDERS. Hoarding their money and not letting it circulate - by hiring and spending, getting that money out into circulation. Putting a tourniquet on it for the sake of your own greed doesn't help anybody, and eventually doesn't help YOU all that much, either.

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Response to calimary (Reply #33)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:32 AM

36. Wealth extractors...I want to see the meme of "job creators" die until they actually create some!!!

The wealth extracting hoarding class is OK too I guess...either way, I want to see people stop referring to these parasites as anything but parasites! They are much more akin to these things:
[link:http://io9.com/12-real-parasites-that-control-the-lives-of-their-hosts-461313366|

Spinochordodes tellinii is a nematomorph hairworm that infects grasshoppers and crickets. As adults, the parasitic worms live in water and form writhing masses to breed. Grasshoppers and crickets ingest the worms' microscopic larvae when they drink the infested water.

The hairworm larvae then develop inside of the insect host. Once grown, they release powerful mind-controlling chemicals that sabotage the insect's central nervous system. The evil hairworms force the insect to jump into the nearest body of water, where it subsequently drown. Yes, the hairworms actually cause their hosts to commit suicide. The parasites then escape their deceased host and the cycle begin anew.


Now, how is THAT any different from these mutant sons of bitches who currently make up the top 1% of wealth hoarders? They suck the life blood out of the workers in their companies and also those who build their roads, fly their planes, deliver their goods, count their money, put out their fires and protect their society (thus protecting THEM)...and what do they give back? A suicide order to work harder, work longer, work, work, work until the jettison the dead carcass and start the cycle over again...

Job creators my ass...wealth extract parasites, yes...

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Response to Moostache (Reply #36)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:10 PM

49. Good stuff. Opportunistic infections they are.

Remoras all. The remora is often referred to as a "suckerfish." 'Cause it sucks off its host, hanging on all the while. Parasites for sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remora

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Response to Moostache (Reply #36)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:52 PM

58. Maybe they used to be job creators, but no more. And they never created jobs to help others.


Only to help themselves.

But now that they aren't even job creators anymore, what good are they, really, to society?

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #58)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:10 PM

61. Good point, they have no intrinsic value...

I guess that would help explain the butt-hurt feelings of the recent Billionaires complaining in the press about being scape-goated or treated like it was Kristallnacht all over again...society would be far, far better off with out the top 300 most wealthy people in the world who suck up HALF of the planetary wealth.

I will give them this much credit... since they DO create spikes in my blood pressure, I guess they are creating demand for something...even if that something is only my blood pressure medication!!!!!

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Response to Moostache (Reply #36)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:19 PM

75. Never heard it said better. Bravo!

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:53 AM

2. One does wonder

For decades I've been baffled by the question as to why people of enormous wealth would want to work so hard to accumulate more and more (and more) of it--more than they can ever use or enjoy. And why they protect it so assiduously. It must take so much effort to think about money all the time. I do think there is some aspect of personality disorder (at the least) to this.

Perhaps it's because I am so entirely disinterested in money. It's such a pain in the ass for us to think about it, unless absolutely necessary. That's probably a personality disorder, too. We of course have made sure to earn enough to live a fairly nice life. And it would be nice to have more so we could travel or do some nice upgrades to our house. But in the end, we're never willing to put the effort into finding ways to make more, unless it fits our interests. It's just that pushing money around is so much more boring to us than certain other life pursuits. It's not a question of laziness (we work really hard!): it's just that money matters are not "interesting" to us. I guess it's endlessly fascinating to some people.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:57 AM

3. cart=>horse

watched the man i married change from a hippy child to a vice president. in the end, that veep was there all the time, making the small decisions that those who love money make.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:03 AM

4. Thank you for this explanation. Do you think that money-lover was there all along,

do you think he was seduced by power? Or is there another explanation?

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:17 AM

10. he was there all along

every choice between job and family fell on the money side.
he works for a sick org. they rewarded all this shit well. and they keep it going with more and more money.

i think he just really wanted the acceptance that was not there in his family, but i can't say.
def a broken person, tho, from long time.
the more he made the more frustrated he got trying to hang on to it.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #10)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:35 AM

21. Sounds like self-esteem=money to him. Very sad. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #21)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:45 AM

23. more like

money=love
that's what he grew up with. between all the bickering.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #23)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:50 AM

25. There's one more thing (this is my opinion here though)...

having lived abroad, I know how in this country each person has to make his or her own solitary way. There's no real community, few real friendships, very little disperse and disunited family, almost no adequate social programs. Financial security (where food, shelter and healthcare will come from), are always in danger of disappearing for each individual in the U.S., and it's an axe always floating above our heads, waiting to fall. And so I imagine that the acquisition of money can also come from the terror of living in a society such as this.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #25)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:03 AM

30. very true.

especially harmful to children raised in uncertainty.
they made their own, as many people do, but what you say is absolutely true. abundance leads to peace, want leads to fear. fear is poison.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #30)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:40 AM

38. I like that - fear is poison. Y es, it is. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #25)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:02 PM

41. Excellent observation

--I agree. I think there are deep anti-social aspects to the kind of wealth hoarding we see in the US today. And the Corporates themselves are reaping BIG profits off the general anxiety about the rest of us having enough to live on.

Imagine--NOT worrying about your most basic needs being met, even if you fall ill or become destitute.

It changes everything about how people view each other and treat each other. For example, my health insurance policy is far less adequate than my sister's, but I am stuck with it. Breeds resentment. OTOH my friend who has had no insurance, has always resented me for having any at all (he finally got Obamacare after 25 years with no coverage). These inequities over basic life support issues--hurt all of us.

I agree with you--there is very little REAL sense of community, where people pull together for the common good, where people trust others instead of being suspicious of everyone's motives, where people can really do kind things (time is money--can't waste it on do-gooderism). But even if you want to invest in friends and neighbors or other groups (ie community) --it is very naive NOT to be suspicious in a country this corrupt where everything is reduced to Buyer Beware. Others may well take advantage of you if you are in any way perceived as overly generous (for example with your time, which is all I have to give, not money). We all learn to be street smart and skeptical of everything. In America the concept of community does not involve commitment. It does not involve give and take. It's often ephemeral, just a veneer. This article says 40% of Americans meet the definition of lonely.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303936904579177700699367092

Or am I wrong about this and most people have no idea what I'm talking about?

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #41)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:04 PM

42. Someone I heard call the way we are with one another, "like crabs in a bucket" nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #42)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:35 PM

44. Thats how it feels to me

I can see those crabs clawing and elbowing, fighting to get to the top of every pile. We're all in the crab bucket.

The crabbers get to sit around deciding who's going into the pot of boiling water next.

It makes people crazy.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #44)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:30 PM

54. I agree. The system of life sets one person against the next, all hiding behind a facade of

smiles and "Have a nice day!"

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #54)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:58 PM

56. Right

I would never say "Have a Nice Day" to anyone.

It operates as a social shield, meaning, "No more interaction, thanks" if the tone is civil, or if the tone is more negative: "get out of my face."

Doncha love this.....a Sign of the Times:

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #41)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:18 PM

51. I didn't read the WSJ article you attached,

but perhaps it is a link to the latest survey of "Millennials," for your post exactly echoes their results!

I (although not a Millennial...a boomer, who retained my peace, love, and justice values) used to have a basic underlying trust of everyone, and believed community existed. I wondered why in recent years I have become - almost at base - untrusting and skeptical. I thought it was a reflection on my character, but I think I understand now that this sense of distrust has become pervasive in our culture.

Although I feel sad for Millennials, and despair of what we have left them, I am glad that they see the false institutions for what they are - the emperor truly HAS no clothes, in their view.



*edited for spelling...mine has really gone downhill with age!

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #51)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:26 PM

57. The way I see it

--that longing for a true sense of community--the ideal of the 60's but also rooted in history--was scoffed at during the Reagan years, when the Rethugs labelled it "socialism" (not good for bizness) and promoted the cynical Ayn Randian path of Holy Capitalism we are all now victims of. And as we now see, that path erodes mutual trust and a sense of community. But alienation and depression in the general public is excellent for all sorts of commercial enterprises, and wars. Keeps people divided and isolated. The ideals of the Boomers were run over, but they were still in the right direction.

OK so They won the battle, but maybe not the war. The Bushcheney nightmare & its aftermath is so bad that it has opened eyes. The Millennials, children of the young adults of the 60's-70's--have come on board and I agree they have their eyes open to a lot of this. They are up against a formidable foe but they realize they are fighting for their future.

We all need to pull together, whatever generation.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #57)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 04:35 PM

65. I agree wholeheartedly..

They have us where they want us. Even the beneveolent Mr. Obama. With all these horrors going on in the world, they would like us to remain distracted and entertained, if not to divert our attention or participation, to protect us. Like Nero and Rome, only we are Nero.

Do you see a swinging back of the pendulum towards communitarianism? Maybe this eat local / buy local movement is the harbinger. Still a bit tribal, but if everyone can play friendly, probably the most sustainable in the long run.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #23)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 07:41 PM

72. I can surely relate....

as I was married to someone like that too. I didn't see it so much in the earlier years, but it became worse as he got older. He grew up in an unloving family with a mother who had no idea how to show love except for buying stuff to make up for her awful parenting. So, yes, money equaled love to him. Very, very sad.

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Response to llmart (Reply #72)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 07:43 PM

73. brother from another mother.

his father was a jerk, too. worked 3 jobs cooking so he wouldn't have to feed his kids.

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Response to llmart (Reply #72)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:36 PM

77. I can relate. My ex once looked me straight in the face and wondered aloud, unblinking,

"How will you know I love you if I don't complain?"

He suffered the delusion that if a person yelled bloody murder about every little thing, but still stayed, THAT was how to prove love. First class sicko.

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Response to IrishAyes (Reply #77)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:49 PM

81. Conflict as a way of feeling "close"

I know people like that... They feel they can only count on negative attention for themselves, so getting response from the conflict is a way of knowing the other person still regards the sicko as important to them. They feel lost and insecure without the other person(s) willingness to fight with them.

Hmmm... emotional neoconservatives~!

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Response to cprise (Reply #81)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 07:30 AM

84. That's the nicest way to put it.

And he too, like others described in this thread, went from at least seeming liberal to the polar opposite. The only compliment I can remember hearing from him was when he told me once that being with me was almost as good as being alone. After he retired from the military, he soon became a Washington lobbyist for the wrong side. If we hadn't split before then, that would've been it for us. Among other days in the year I celebrate, the day our divorce became final has always loomed large.

Hell, I celebrate that every day!

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Response to mopinko (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:04 AM

5. You're married to Joe Biden???

Damn!

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Response to cui bono (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:19 AM

13. it would be better. at least joe is honest.

which is probably the problem with a lot of wealthy people.
the better you are at lying, the smoother you way to the top.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:45 PM

70. I think this is far more likely in most cases. It's what the person brings to the table. n/t

 

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Response to frazzled (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:06 AM

6. Keynes talks about this later in that essay, how the rich often don't even enjoy their riches!


"For we shall inquire more curiously than is safe to-day into the true character of this “purposiveness” with which in varying degrees Nature has endowed almost all of us. For purposiveness means that we are more concerned with the remote future results of our actions than with their own quality or their immediate effects on our own environment. The “purposive” man is always trying to secure a spurious and delusive immortality for his acts by pushing his interest in them forward into time. He does not love his cat, but his cat’s kittens; nor, in truth, the kittens, but only the kittens’ kittens, and so on forward forever to the end of cat-dom. For him jam is not jam unless it is a case of jam to-morrow and never jam to-day."

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:19 AM

12. There was this heiress who inherited $1 million in the 1920s

 

By the time she died she had turned it into $100 million. But her only child, a boy, lost his leg because she refused to hire a doctor. They lived uncomfortably until she died, (and he did not hire a doctor for his mom either). She was all about saving for the future and making more money. After her death, the son spent every last sent.

It is an illness that we seem to worship.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #12)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:39 PM

45. Wasn't that Heddi Greene?

I'm sure I mis-spelled that. I read about her in school, a social studies class at a Catholic school.

Julie

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #45)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 07:55 AM

85. I couldn't remember her name

 

thanks for reminding me.

Don't worry about spelling since I can't even spell cent correctly.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:31 AM

18. Thank you for your op. This is one of the few on DU worth noting and discussing.

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #18)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:24 PM

52. Hear, hear

And not only the OP, but the entire discussion.

15 minutes well spent!

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:02 PM

59. And this is why they believe they must own the future, ours, theirs, everything. n/t

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Response to frazzled (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:29 AM

17. I was informed by someone who is very rich that it becomes a matter of power.

 

I agree with that being true.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:49 AM

24. But even that is illusory - no single billionaire really controls much in this world.


In the end, it all seems pretty delusional, a way to "prove" that one is better than everyone else. A mental illness, indeed!

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:40 PM

78. It's all about using $ to measure treasured anatomy. The more $, the bigger.... y'know.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:57 AM

28. Perhaps JK Rowling (for example) enjoys writing books?

Highly paid athletes enjoy playing whichever sport they excel at?

Brad Pitt and Sandra Bullock enjoy making movies?

People who have built businesses enjoy running them and keeping them thriving?

I think a lot of times people simply enjoy doing whatever it is that made them wealthy in the first place.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #28)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:10 AM

32. That doesn't explain why ...

so many of these billionaires are obsessed with finding ways to KEEP their money: avoiding taxes, for example, by sheltering portions of their wealth here or abroad, etc.

When JK Rowling writes a book, she releases it into the world. It makes money (lots of it); great. Does she then spend all her mental energy on the money, not the thing (the writing) that made her the money? I hope not.

Money is a means, not an end for most people. It's the people for whom money is both the means and the end we're concerned with here. There is nothing creative or even particularly smart being done. It's just money making money. It's about amassing perceived power through the process of racking up ever larger numbers—numbers so large they are meaningless in the end. If you lost a small amount of these numbers to the government so that schools could be funded or roads paved or sick children insured it wouldn't mean you're any less successful. But somehow (some of) these people find it threatening to their personal game.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #32)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:37 AM

37. Why give money away when you can make it make more?

yes, it's a disease. And it is killing this country.

I hope more people will wake up.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #32)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:45 PM

79. I heard Rowling say in an interview once that she remained in the country of her birth

so that she could return good for good by supporting the system that had given her a fighting chance to succeed. Imagine! A really rich person who wants to pay high taxes. That takes character. Too bad she's rare as hen's teeth.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #28)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:11 PM

50. JK Rowling is an example of why we need to pay our unemployed workers. They are valuable assets.

 

When given the smallest of unemployment stipends like Rowling, they can create wealth and jobs.

Taxing the wealthy to pay unemployed workers is not only fair and moral, it is productive and profitable.


Same reason we should pay for all schooling

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #28)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:05 PM

68. They aren't celebrated because they enjoy what they do.

They're celebrated because they make a lot of money doing it, which was Keynes' point.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:24 PM

76. When all a person has is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The parasitic 1% can hardly be human anymore, they're so fixated on using $ to win their anatomy-measuring contests.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:09 AM

8. But someone has to be the first trillionaire. It's very important.

Why it is, I have no clue. They tell me if I can't understand I don't deserve to know. Like those DC prayer-meeting pols cited in The Family. If you're rich, God thinks you should get richer. If you're not rich, you suck.

As long as there are people willing to sacrifice life and limb for the moneylusters, moneylusters will always exist (along with money existing, too). Without the militaries of the moneylusters, all the talking heads in the world mean nothing.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:14 AM

9. Really powerful

I had no idea Keynes wrote about such. THANK YOU for the link and the post.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #9)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:51 AM

26. You're welcome. I was just reading about technological job loss, and this essay came up.


Then I thought, hey, I bet DU'ers would love to read this!

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:17 AM

11. identity issue

For those folks, their number is their identity. It hurts to see it go down. They don't have the ability to spend it, they just like counting it. It's a disease for sure. I know someone who thinks about money all the time. She's wealthy, probably top 5%, not 1%. She can't stop thinking about money. Every conversation contains information about what something costs. We went to a fast food place yesterday, and she wanted to compare the cost of a hamburger and turkey sandwich. In her job, she buys and sells hospitals and works with budgets with billions in them. It's a strange disease.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:22 AM

14. Seems to fit the Goldman Sachs mold

 

Why would millionaires at Goldman Sachs so blatantly destroy their own integrity by creating mortgage backed securities that they designed to fail, sell them to their own institutional clients, then take their own "house money" and purchase credit default swaps from AIG betting that those same securities they sold their clients would fail ? I think Keynes was right. Once you reach a certain level of wealth, motivation switches from security to a power psychosis play.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:22 AM

15. They are sociopaths. They do this without reguard for the human lives oppressed and destroyed.

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:41 AM

39. Absolutely

These should not be praised but pitied and, possibly, locked up.

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Response to rickyhall (Reply #39)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 08:26 AM

86. Absolutely locked up. n/t

 

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:29 AM

16. The documentary "I Am"

which is available on Netflix makes the point that many primitive societies thought taking more resources of any type than one could use was a sign of mental illness. Makes you wonder just who's primitive.

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Response to Brainstormy (Reply #16)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:35 AM

20. Thanks for the doc tip. n/t

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Response to Brainstormy (Reply #16)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:03 AM

29. "Mine, mine, mine, all mine!!"

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:33 AM

19. +1

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:38 AM

22. Who knew Pope Francis read Keynes!!!!

Gotta love that line:

"...a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease."

Here's looking at you Mr. Ryan.

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Response to Grins (Reply #22)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:09 AM

31. Excellent Post!

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:55 AM

27. I think it is just like any other hoarder

they just hoard money instead of news paper, cats and dollar store stuff. I think it is even worse because they can afford to have nothing but yes men around them. Nobody is walking in and saying this is wrong you can't live like this. They will never have enough and never be able to let go.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:18 AM

34. I love the discussion

and exchanges this thread has brought up. All so very true.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:26 AM

35. Those like Keynes who wrote about the future from the era of the Great Depression merely looked

back at the history that led to the depression. The rich of that time were suffering from the same disease of greed.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:55 AM

40. I also believe it's a sickness that goes far back in our history

that these "owners" feel they are entitled to ALL the fruits of labor, because they can somehow dismiss the labor of those who produce the fruits by claiming they "take all the risks" whatever the hell that means. That owners feel no obligation to share the fruits with those who actually do the labor is the true sickness of our hyper capitalist society.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:06 PM

43. When is enough enough?

Apparently never for some folks. Very sad.

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Response to Iwillnevergiveup (Reply #43)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:45 PM

46. Someone in my family has the disease

of Never Enough.

She is very unhappy, always on a quest to to fill that void. It involves emotional cravings as well as materialism. But you can see the constant antenna up--"what's in it for moi?" The Miss Piggy syndrome.

This vid belongs in this thread:




Video Published on Mar 10, 2014
Introducing "Moi by Miss Piggy," a new lifestyle brand scheduled to debut Sunday, March 16 on QVC.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #46)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:04 PM

48. All is vanity!

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:45 PM

47. kr ... nt

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:29 PM

53. So, we think it will truly lead to revolution?

In this country? An economic revolution? It seems ripe for one...

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #53)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:43 PM

55. The past 20-30 years has changed the American people's view of the very rich.


Perhaps they use to think of them as "job creators," but now I think it's safe to say most people see them as "money hoarders," and many other posts in this thread can confirm this idea.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #55)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:54 PM

80. Oligarchs are still worshipped in flyover country where I retired. Stockholm Syndrome -

people are terrified of upsetting their owners because then what few crumbs are left will be taken from them. Can't live with themselves knowing how afraid they are to stand up like real human beings, so they prefer to think of their jailers as beloved heroes. To ease their own conscience - they know they're participating in the slaughter themselves.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:02 PM

60. Love it.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 04:06 PM

62. If a woman has too many cats, she is a hoarder with a mental illness.

If a guy is living up to his neck in trash he's a hoarder with a mental illness.

If two men have more wealth than the combined gross national product of entire continents, they're "job creators" who get tax breaks and have the Senate's backing in the destruction of the global economy.

Anyone see anything wrong with this? Bueller?

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Response to Initech (Reply #62)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 04:22 PM

63. They can pay hundreds of people to call them "job creators," but they can't make people believe it.


This is the one thing that drives these uber-wealthy billionaires crazy - they want to be worshipped, and people aren't doing it anymore.

No, quite the opposite thing is starting to happen - the people are realizing they're no better than anyone else. In many ways, they're worse. Keynes might have even said they have a mental illness. The emperors have no clothes. I think that, deep down, the emperors know this themselves.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 04:28 PM

64. What makes these uber rich so greedy?

Its actually a very serious question I have. They have more money than they will ever need, but they still need to make more. Is it fear of losing it? Protecting it at all costs because they know what the exact opposite of their wealth looks like? I would like to think that I would not become so greedy if I were to ever amass the riches the 1% has, but I don't know. I feel there has to be some sort of real psychological... thing going on when people make a lot of money.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 05:00 PM

66. This sentence is the best!

The love of money as a possession -as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life -will be recognised for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #66)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 10:21 AM

88. Excellent post

 

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:04 PM

67. Hoarding takes a lot of different forms

That is exactly right. That includes money and wealth. I do estate sales and watch people. They just can't stop themselves in their quest for "stuff" It's got to be a type of mental illness. They fight over it and have to have it. They think everyone else want their "stuff" so they guard it. Holy Cow. I need them, that is how I sell it. But I think hoarding takes different forms, including wealth.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:37 PM

69. Guess which economist I'll be quoting in my next letter to the editor of our regional weekly.

Properly paraphrased and credited, of course. Most of these people wouldn't be able to grasp such elegant compound sentences.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:57 PM

71. Don't forget: Money = Power

For many of the uber-rich (and the wannabees) the lust for power in all its forms holds a greater allure than simple hoarding of wealth.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:03 PM

74. I think it is about control -

I had a MIL who squeezed every penny dry - made shirts for herself out of her husband's old ones. There is nothing wrong with re-use and frugality, but this woman made it an art form.

I also noticed control in other areas too - over her children, husband, very judgmental.

And I know that she survived some things when she was younger - losing her mom at a young age, dropping out of school and working because they were poor.

So, I think when she was older and part of a higher-income family with her spouse she was determined to control not only the money but other things too. One can stand back, empathize, and understand how this personality could develop.

I do think it is more than just greed - there are other emotions at work and it very much smells like mental illness (or a combination of factors).

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:59 PM

82. Thanks for Posting this Article!

 

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:57 AM

83. Maybe this news story is the start of it:

U.S. TV pitchman Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

By Mary Wisniewski

CHICAGO (Reuters) - U.S. TV pitchman Kevin Trudeau, who was convicted last year of criminal contempt for exaggerating the contents of his weight-loss book in infomercials, was sentenced on Monday to 10 years in prison.

Trudeau, 51, who has been held in federal custody since his conviction in November, will also have five years of supervised release after serving his sentence, U.S. District Court Judge Ronald Guzman said.

"He is deceitful to the very core, and that type of conduct simply cannot stand," Guzman said, noting that Trudeau had been cited repeatedly for violating court orders over several years.

<snip>

Prosecutors, who said Trudeau's actions resulted in over $37 million in losses to consumers, had sought at least a 10-year sentence, saying in court papers he was motivated by simple greed and had bilked consumers and defied court orders.

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Response to reformist2 (Original post)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 10:03 AM

87. It's the 80 year cycle

 

American economic history shows that boom and bust cycles seem to follow an 80 year pattern. As an example, take the Great Depression. The country was accepting of the regulations that Roosevelt placed on the markets and business in general as well as the social safety net. Business had no choice but to succumb to the will of the people.

But, 40 or so years into this rebirth, the citizens most directly affected by the Great Depression had died out and were replaced with a new, more naive generation. As we've seen during Reagan and since, the financial powers have been able to convince the new generation that regulation of markets is bad. They convinced the population to accept tax codes favoring the financial power brokers. Trickle down was not Reagan's brain child. It's happened before. The 2008 financial crisis should have brought this most current 80 year cycle to it's conclusion clearing the way for another rebirth.

The salient question is: Has today's pervasive effects of financial influence over our government coupled with the insidious emergence of citizen apathy make a new rebirth unattainable ? In the shadow of 2008, new regulation has been weak, worker organization weak, higher education funding weak while the weakening of the social safety net is gaining traction. Will we be the first generation not to witness the rebirth of this historical 80 year cycle ?

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