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Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:19 PM

A Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup

Last edited Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:03 AM - Edit history (3)

Btw, Victoria Nuland, currently Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the State Deparment, and formerly Principal Deputy National Security Advisor to VP Dick Cheney, is the wife of PNAC co-founder Robert Kagan. Her husband, Robert, is on the State Dept's Foreign Affairs Policy Board along with a few other nasty ones.


A Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup
by Renee Parsons


A handout picture released by Ukrainian Union Opposition press services shows US Assistant secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland (R) distributing cakes to riot policemen on the Independence Square in Kiev on December 10, 2013. (Photo: Handout)

Listening to the US media, even the most diligent news junkie would find it difficult to know that the U.S. State Department played not only a vital role in the violence and chaos underway in Ukraine but was also complicit in creating the coup that ousted democratically elected President Viktor Yanuyovch. Given the Russian Parliament’s approval of Putin’s request for military troops to be moved into Crimea, Americans uninformed about the history of that region might also be persuaded that Russia is the aggressor and the sole perpetrator of the violence.

Let’s be clear about what is at stake here: NATO missiles on the adjacent Ukraine border aimed directly at Russia would make that country extremely vulnerable to Western goals and destabilization efforts while threatening Russia’s only water access to its naval fleet in Crimean peninsula, the Balkans, the Mediterranean Sea and the Middle East – and not the least of which would allow world economic dominance by the US, the European Union, the IMF, World Bank and international financiers all of whom had already brought staggering suffering to millions around the globe.

The fact is that democracy was not a demand on the streets of Kiev. The current record of events indicates that protests of civil dissatisfaction were organized by reactionary neo-Nazi forces intent on fomenting a major domestic crisis ousting Ukraine’s legitimate government. As events continue to spiral out of control, here is the chronology of how the coup was engineered to install a government more favorable to EU and US goals.

April 11, 2011 - A Kiev Post article entitled “Ukraine Hopes to Get $1.5 Billion from IMF in June” states that the loan is dependent on pension cuts while “maintaining cooperation with the IMF, since it influences the country's interaction with other international financial institutions and private investors” and further that the “attraction of $850 million from the World Bank in 2011, depended on cooperation with the IMF.” Well, that about says it all - if Ukraine played ball then the loan money would pour in.

November 21, 2013 - fast forward to the EU summit in Lithuania when President Yanuyovch embarrassed the European Union by rejecting its Agreement in favor of joining Russia’s Common Union with other Commonwealth Independent States.

November 27, 2013 – it was not until February 23, 2014 when Anonymous Ukraine hackers released a series of emails from a Lithuanian government advisor to opposition leader and former boxer Vitaly Klitschko regarding plans to destabilize Ukraine; for example:

“Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see Nuland or someone from the Congress.” 12/7/2013

“Your colleague has arrived ….his services may be required even after the country is destabilized.” 12/14/2013

“I think we’ve paved the way for more radical escalation of the situation. Isn’t it time to proceed with more decisive action?” 1/9/2014

November 29, 2013 - well-orchestrated protestors were already in the streets of Kiev as European Commission President Jose Manual Barroso announced that the EU would “not accept Russia’s veto” of the Agreement.

December 13, 2013 - As if intent on providing incontrovertible evidence of US involvement in Ukraine, Assistant US Secretary of State for Europe and Eurasia Victoria Nuland proudly told a meeting of the International Business Conference sponsored by the US-Ukrainian Foundation that the US had ‘invested’ more than $5 billion and ‘five years worth of work and preparation” in achieving what she called Ukraine’s ‘European aspirations.” Having just returned from her third trip to Ukraine in five weeks, Nuland boasted of her ‘coordinated high level diplomacy’ and a more than two hour ‘tough conversation’ with Yanukovych. Already familiar with Nuland as former Secretary Clinton’s spokesperson at State, one can imagine her discourteous tone and manner when she says she made it “absolutely clear” to Yanukovych that the US required “immediate steps” …to “get back into conversation with Europe and the IMF.” While Western media have portrayed Yanukovych as a ‘weak’ leader, Nuland’s description of a ‘tough’ meeting can only mean that he resisted her threats and intimidations. In what must have been a touching moment, Nuland spoke about a show of force by government police on demonstrators who “sang hymns and prayed for peace.”


US-backed Svoboda supporters pictured during recent uprising wearing SS-style armbands.

What Nuland did not reveal on December 13 was that her meetings with ‘key Ukrainian stakeholders’ included neo-Nazi Svoboda party leader Oleh Tyahnybok and prime minister wannabe Arsenly Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party. At about the same time Nuland was wooing fascist extremists, Sen. John McCain (R-Az) and Sen. Chris Murphy (D- Conn) shared the stage in Kiev with Tyahnybok offering their support and opposition to the sitting government. The Svoboda party which has roots with extreme vigilante and anti-semitic groups has since received at least three high level cabinet posts in the interim government including deputy prime minister. There is no doubt that the progenies of west Ukraine’s historic neo-fascist thugs that fought with Hitler are now aligned with the US as represented by Victoria Nuland.



January 24, 2014 – President Yanukoyvch identified foreign elements participating in Kiev protests warning that armed radicals were a danger to peaceful citizens. Independent news agencies also reported that “not all of Kiev’s population backs opposition rule, which depends mainly on a group from the former Polish town of Lvov, which holds sway over Kiev downtown - but not the rest of the city.”

January 30, 2014 - The State Department’s website Media Note announced Nuland’s upcoming travel plans that ”In Kyiv, Assistant Secretary Nuland will meet with government officials, opposition leaders, civil society and business leaders to encourage agreement on a new government and plan of action.” In other words, almost a month before President Yanukovych was ousted, the US was planning to rid the world of another independently elected President.

February 4, 2014 - More evidence of Ms. Nuland’s meddling with extremist factions and the high level stakes of war and peace occurred in her taped conversation with U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing their calculations of who’s in and who’s out to replace Yanukovych.



Note mention of Nazi leader Oleh Tyahnybok. Here are some selected excerpts:

Nuland: “What do you think?”

Pyatt: “I think we’re in play… the [Vitali] Klitsch piece is obviously the complicated electron here especially the announcement of him as deputy prime minister. Your argument to him which you’ll need to make, I think the next phone call we want to set up is exactly the one you made to Yats (Yatsenyuk). And I’m glad you sort of put him on the spot on where he fits in this scenario and I’m very glad he said what he said in response.”

Nuland: “I don’t think Klitsch should go into government. I don’t think its necessary. I don’t think it’s a good idea.”

Pyatt: “yeah…I mean I guess. You think…what…in terms of him not going into the government, just let him sort of stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I’m just thinking in terms of the process moving ahead, we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok and his guys. I’m sure that’s what Yanukoyvch is calculating on all this.”

Nuland: “I think Yats is the guy who’s got the economic experience, the governing experience. What he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside and he needs to be talking to them four times a week you know…I think with Klitsch going in at that level working for Yats, it’s not going to work.”

Nuland: “My understanding is that the big three (Yatsenyuk, Klitsch and Tyahnybok) were going in to their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a three plus one conversation with you.”

Pyatt: “ That’s what he proposed but knowing the dynamic that’s been with them where Klitsch has been top dog; he’s going to take a while to show up at a meeting, he’s probably talking to his guys at this point so I think you reaching out to him will help with the personality management among the three and gives us a chance to move fast on all this stuff and put us behind it before they all sit down and he explains why he doesn’t like it.”

Nuland: … “when I talked to Jeff Feltman this morning, he had a new name for the UN guy …Robert Serry – he’s now gotten both Serry and Ban ki Moon to agree that Serry could come in Monday or Tuesday… so that would be great I think to help glue this thing and have the UN help glue it and you know fuck the EU.”

Pyatt: “Exactly. I think we’ve got to do something to make it stick together because you can be pretty sure the Russians will be working behind the scenes. ….Let me work on Klitchko and I think we want to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help midwife this thing.”

Nuland: ”…Sullivan’s come back to me saying you need Biden and I said probably tomorrow for an ‘atta boy’ and get the deeds to stick so Biden’s willing.”

February 20, 2014 – Foreign ministers from Poland, Germany and France visiting Kiev secured President Yanukovych’s agreement that would commit the government to an interim administration, constitutional reform and new parliamentary and presidential elections. With “no clear sign that EU or US pressure has achieved” the desired effect, opposition leaders rejected Yanukovych’s compromise which would have ended the three month stand-off. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov called on the German, French and Polish foreign ministers to step in and take responsibility for upholding the deal they helped forge and not let “armed extremists” directly threaten Ukrainian sovereignty.

February 21, 2014 - At a special summit in Brussels, European foreign ministers agreed to adopt sanctions on Ukraine including visa bans and asset freezes. The EU decision followed “immense pressure from the US for the European powers to take punitive action against the Ukrainian regime.” Washington had already imposed travel bans on 20 leading Ukrainians.

February 22, 2014 – An hour after refusing to resign, the Ukrainian Parliament voted, according to Russian president Vladimir Putin, in an unconstitutional action to oust President Yanukovych and that pro-EU forces staged a ‘coup’. Yanukovych departed Kiev in fear for his life.

March 1, 2014 - During a conversation initiated by the vice president, Biden delivered his ‘atta boy’ with a phone call to newly installed prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk (a banker) reaffirming US support for Ukraine’s ‘territorial integrity.”

All of the above machinations expose an incoherent and corrupt American foreign policy with a litany of US hypocrisy that might be hilarious if not for potentially grave global implications. The comment “you just don’t behave by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext” might just win Secretary of State John Kerry the Hypocrisy of the Year Award. Kerry, of course, famously supported the 2003 invasion of Iraq seeking weapons of mass destruction.

But then again, the President’s own comments that “..countries have deep concerns and suspicions about this kind of meddling..” and that “…as long as none of us are inside Ukraine trying to meddle and intervene.. with decisions that properly belong to Ukrainian people…” while announcing $1 billion aid package to Ukraine (but not Detroit) would be a close runner-up for the Award.

This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License.


http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/05-6

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Reply A Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup (Original post)
Catherina Mar 2014 OP
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #1
sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #72
polly7 Mar 2014 #2
Catherina Mar 2014 #6
cheapdate Mar 2014 #87
polly7 Mar 2014 #243
ProSense Mar 2014 #3
LisaL Mar 2014 #4
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MNBrewer Mar 2014 #5
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Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #9
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #10
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #13
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geek tragedy Mar 2014 #22
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #26
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #33
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #36
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polly7 Mar 2014 #106
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Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #23
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ProSense Mar 2014 #135
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polly7 Mar 2014 #211
dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #212
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polly7 Mar 2014 #239
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polly7 Mar 2014 #236
Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #246
Oilwellian Mar 2014 #234
KoKo Mar 2014 #240
woo me with science Mar 2014 #235

Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:24 PM

1. Thank you for the Russian government's perspective on this.

 

We certainly had not seen enough posts providing Vladimir Putin's spin on the situation.

Thank you also for completely ignoring the corruption and repression and human rights violations committed by Putin's puppet, Yanukovych. We certainly would not want those getting in the way of the fairy tale.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:22 PM

72. Corruption? Can you detail for us WHO has been involved in the corruption of most of the EU

Banks, Governments, with a chronology of how many of them have been prosecuted? Iceland is the only one I can think of. And I don't expect, how that the IMF and the World Bank are taking over in Ukraine, much will be done about the corruption in that country, guess why?

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:25 PM

2. Huge K&R. Thank you Catherina. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:35 PM

6. You're welcome Polly. Had to post something factual to counter the MSM's fairytales.



"The Rape of Ukraine: Phase Two Begins
William Engdahl | March 3, 2014"

...

Now that the “opposition” has driven a duly-elected president into exile somewhere unknown, and dissolved the national riot police, Berkut, Washington has demanded that Ukraine submit to onerous IMF conditionalities.

In negotiations last October, the IMF demanded that Ukraine double prices for gas and electricity to industry and homes, that they lift a ban on private sale of Ukraine’s rich agriculture lands, make a major overhaul of their economic holdings, devalue the currency, slash state funds for school children and the elderly to “balance the budget.” In return Ukraine would get a paltry $4 billion.

Before the ouster of the Moscow-leaning Yanukovich government last week, Moscow was prepared to buy some $15 billion of Ukraine debt and to slash its gas prices by fully one-third. Now, understandably, Russia is unlikely to give that support. The economic cooperation between Ukraine and Moscow was something Washington was determined to sabotage at all costs. This drama is far from over. The stakes involve the very future of Russia, the EU-Russian relations, and the global power of Washington, or at least that faction in Washington that sees further wars as the prime instrument of policy.

# # # #

F. William Engdahl, BFP contributing Author & Analyst

William Engdahl is author of A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics in the New World Order. He is a contributing author at BFP and may be contacted through his website at www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net where this article was originally published.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:00 AM

87. A great many DUers don't depend on the MSM to inform their perspective

Last edited Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:48 PM - Edit history (1)

on complex matters of politics and foreign affairs.

I read your timeline and recognize how carefully selected factual information is used with metaphorical framing to weave a narrative. For instance, Parsons notes that Nuland participated in stakeholder meetings that "included" representatives of far-right parties but she neglects to provide any other context. Barack Obama shared a stage with Hugo Chavez at a 2009 meeting of the OAS. Leaders from 35 other states were present as well. The point is that simply observing that Nuland was at a meeting that "included" leaders from two far-right parties doesn't provide enough context to draw much of a conclusion, although Parsons seems to imply that the meeting was a close collaboration between the US and the Ukraine far-right. Which might be true, but the way that Parsons fails to provide important details about the meeting raises doubts in my mind.

Parsons writes : "...As if intent on providing incontrovertible evidence of US involvement" and then notes that the US has invested substantial time and money in influencing US-Ukraine relations. She uses the phrase "incontrovertible evidence" which frames the actions in the terms of crime and guilt or innocence, when in truth, the US or any country is free influence relations with other countries -- it's called diplomacy.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Russia, the EU, and the IMF are free to enter into negotiations with her over trade or economic matters. F. William Engdahl can frame European proposals as "demands", but they're still only proposals. Russia has deep ties and strong legitimate interests in Ukraine. They have an interest in maintaining stability and preventing a chaotic and disastrous civil war on their border.

There are many different perspectives on the situation in Ukraine. I'm not dismissing Parson's piece, but it raises more questions than answers when you look at at critically.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #6)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:37 AM

243. +1000. nt.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:30 PM

3. "Given the Russian Parliament’s approval of Putin’s request for military troops to be moved...

"Given the Russian Parliament’s approval of Putin’s request for military troops to be moved into Crimea"

Yes, of course, the Russian invasion of Ukraine is absolutely justified.

I was wondering when the pro-Russian propaganda would hit full throttle.



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Response to ProSense (Reply #3)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:32 PM

4. There are two sides to every story.

But of course you are welcome to only listen to pro-US propaganda.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:37 PM

8. Does this

"There are two sides to every story. But of course you are welcome to only listen to pro-US propaganda."

...mean you'll "only listen" to the pro-Russian "propaganda"?

Is there room in there for facts?

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:33 PM

5. Cookies AND cakes???

Well NOW I'm convinced!

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:35 PM

7. hahha

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:37 PM

9. You should add a caveat that you're no fan of Yanukowitsch and don't love Putin.

Or you'll spend half of your energy on pointing that out.

Also, let me add that other nations had a heavy influence on the opposition, especially Germany, which has funded most opposition parties ever since the last pro-western government collapsed and has organized many of those "workshops on democracy" that served as a rallying forum and helped to coordinate the actions of a very divergent coalition of pro-western forces within the Ukraine.

I'd say this one is as much a German project as an American one, even though American sources have probably outspent European ones.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:39 PM

10. writing 20 paragraphs of pro-Kremlin and pro-Yankusovych propaganda

 

doesn't get dispelled with a disclaimer claiming to not be a supporter

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:41 PM

13. What would you prefer? Pure, 100% U.S. propaganda? We already have that. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #13)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:45 PM

18. Oh, how about some reality-based discussion instead of this tribal

 

"you're either with Vlad and his puppets or you're with the terrorists" tribalist nonsense offered by the Putinistas.

There are troubling elements in the current Ukrainian government, and that situation is a hot mess, and there needs to be diplomacy instead of war going on.

That does not mean that Russia isn't a regional imperialist power, that Yankusovych wasn't a thuggish despot who stole from his own people, or that the popular discontent in the Ukraine over Yankusovych's misrule was some grand conspiracy dreamed up in Washington.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #18)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:47 PM

19. If you're neither, then go ahead. Introduce your view.

But to throw the typical MSM U.S. propaganda around again, I've had that every day since it began and it's the usual lies. I have to get my news abroad because the U.S. has few truthful news anymore.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #19)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:49 PM

22. Considering that every member state of the EU, Japan, and Canada agree with the US

 

here, I guess that leaves you with Russia Today.



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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #22)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:52 PM

26. 1) It's their country, not ours, 2) plotting regime change is getting old and tiring

3) that sort of underhanded U.S. bullying needs to stop already simply because it's wrong and sick. We are not the policemen of the planet, and being the policemen has been damaging to us, rather than beneficial. It has to stop.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #26)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:56 PM

33. 1) Ukraine is not Russia's country; 2) there is nothing to substantiate

 

the silly conspiracy theory that the US orchestrated a mass uprising against a thuggish, corrupt despot.

It's not regime change, it's a really shitty abusive gangster losing legitimacy.

So, no, the 'regime change' and "US-sponsored coup" claims are not facts--they are accusations.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #33)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:02 PM

36. But causing REGIME CHANGE in countries around to manipulate them or others, is SICK

I don't care what this is or that. Regime change is WRONG. W-R-O-N-G.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #36)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:04 PM

39. again, the extraordinary claim that the US caused a mass uprising in Ukraine

 

has not been substantiated.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #39)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:06 PM

41. Oh BS. I'm Latin. Latin America has been the target of U.S. regime changes for, oh forever

And multiple countries around the globe have been regime-changed by the U.S. and it's a constant problem with the U.S., their sick regime-changing around the globe. It's gotten old, it's criminal, and it's got to stop now.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #41)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:07 PM

42. that is not evidence. that is just ranting nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #42)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:14 PM

44. Let's drop this, ok? You're a lover of regime-change, so this convo is over. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #44)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:15 PM

45. false. I favor the right of people to rise up against oppression.

 

regime change from abroad is almost always wrong.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #45)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:30 PM

46. No. You favor manufactured dissent to overthrow democratically elected govts. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #46)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:52 PM

55. You don't get to tell me what I believe.

 

Maybe in Putin's Russia that is considered acceptable. But that kind of authoritarianism doesn't fly here.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #55)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:01 PM

62. You can "believe" whatever you want -

but that doesn't make it factual.

We see what happens when people "rise up" in this country:

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Response to TBF (Reply #62)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:09 PM

67. That cop got fired, his commander suspended, the

 

university chancellor forced to apologize, and the victims paid $30,000 each.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #67)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:12 PM

69. Oh, well that makes it ok then.

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Response to TBF (Reply #69)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:39 PM

84. No, obviously not. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #55)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:51 AM

119. You're denying that the U.S. has its claws all over this regime change. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #45)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:50 AM

118. Wrong. You favor U.S. involvement everywhere. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #41)


Response to polly7 (Reply #106)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:17 AM

107. Yup, same sh*t, different day. Thank you for posting that wonderful article! nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #107)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:26 AM

109. You're very welcome. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #106)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 09:48 PM

226. polly7, thanks for pointing out this article

cheers,
Agony

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #39)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:40 AM

112. Oh yeah, and the U.S. is not responsible for regime changes and coups in endless countries

throughout the globe. It's just all one huge figment of our collective imaginations.

The U.S. School of the Americas, the CIA, the U.S. School of the Americas, the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, the U.S. Special Forces, the DEA, the U.S. State Department, U.S. Embassies, U.S. legislation to crush democratically-elected governments, U.S. approval to destabilize economies, and the acts of many other U.S. organizations and groups are pure innocence, and have nothing to do with the constant regime-changes, coups, and crushings of democratically-elected governments throughout the globe. They've never spent mega-millions, and never recruited military, never recruited "protestors," never recruited one soul to destabilize governments throughout the world.

These are all just some mean, ugly, "unsubstantiated" accusations against such honest, upstanding American organizations.

We're such confused meanies, aren't we?

Look, why don't we just drop the façade, and begin anew? You, by admitting that you know and accept that the U.S. does these things, but that you happen to LIKE it, and I by saying that it is wrong on every level, and must not be permitted to continue. Lying and pretending you don't know the U.S. is in the business of doing these things, is not helping your discussion.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #112)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:52 AM

121. Two points and then this discussion is over.

 

1) the fact that in some cases the US has sponsored and plotted coups does not mean that every uprising against an abusive leader is a US conspiracy. Please read up on logical fallacies.

2) You do not get to tell me what I believe. You are not a cop in Vladimir Putin's Russia trying to browbeat a thought criminal. I and I alone am qualified to say what I believe. You--who know NOTHING about me--are supremely unqualified to declare what I believe. That is abusive, authoritarian behavior that occurs on both the far right and far left.

Toodles. I won't be able to read your responses.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #121)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:02 PM

124. "the fact that in some cases the US has sponsored and plotted coups..."

Some cases? U.S. history on this is long, and bloody, and immoral. And I haven't even mentioned the wars they began under false pretenses.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #36)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:37 PM

81. +1

 

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #26)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:12 PM

48. it's your position that Russia didn't interfere?

 

So Russia DIDN'T threaten retaliation if Yanukovich signed a deal with the EU?

You seem very willing condemn the U.S. and give ole Uncle Pootie a pass. That is ESPECIALLY curious given Russia's long history on imperial domination of Ukraine. How in the world is that fair minded?

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #48)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:55 PM

57. It's my position that it's pure U.S. propaganda that the insurrection was wanted by

the whole country. Just more of the regime-change propaganda this country engages in to justify the BS they do around the world.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #57)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:58 PM

60. I didn't find a single source that said the "whole country."

 

In fact, a LOT of the coverage I read was pretty nuanced.

But... do you deny Russian interference?

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #60)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:49 AM

116. What I deny is that the U.S. was not involved in hiring and promoting this thing

That's what I deny. And that will remain my focus until the truth is out, which is what has happened so far with every country where there's been regime change from a democratically-elected government to another. The U.S. needs to keep its claws out of other countries once and for all.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #22)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:11 AM

89. That fact that you even mention EU as if they have any credibility, well that says it all.

 

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Response to 2banon (Reply #89)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:32 AM

92. ? nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #18)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:56 PM

167. I think I asked you this before, but in case I didn't. Who are the 'putinistas'? The reason I'm

asking is because unless you can actually point them out here, this is reminiscent of the nonsense that came from Bush supporters. I for one do not give ANY credibility to ANYONE who uses the old 'You traitors love Saddam' routine.

Which is why I am asking you to point these Putinistas out, otherwise you ARE resorting to calling Democrats here, traitors and Putin/Saddam/ Bin Ladin lovers. I thought we had enough of that vile garbage aimed at Democrats to last a lifetime, and I sure don't come to a Democratic forum to see it all over again.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #167)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:57 PM

193. Anyone remotely critical of an Obama Administration

 

policy or position is automatically aligned with the tea party/right wing/Republicans/enemy du jour. Same old shit as was alleged during the Bush Administration by those willing to compromise their credibility and values to protect him and the Republican party.

We all know what this is - if this was a Republican president, the name callers would be the first on the bandwagon to criticize the policy and president.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #13)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:32 AM

102. We used to have pure 100% USA propaganda as long as I remember,

but now we only have 1% richest of the rich propaganda.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #102)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:15 AM

105. You're right. I stand corrected! :) nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:42 PM

15. Feel free to add any substantial information or to refute any assertion that I made.

I'll even consider engaging you then.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #15)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:47 PM

20. Well, you advocated she state she's not a fan or loyalist or supporter

 

of Putin and Yankusovych.

And I pointed out that, well, maybe there's a reason no such language is in there.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #20)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:52 PM

27. Bulverisms are the weakest of all ad-hominem arguments. nt

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:44 PM

17. Very true what you wrote. Germany needs the cheap labor badly

This will fit in nicely with that obscene TPP they're ramming down our international throats.

It took just a few hours for the reactionary social content of the upheaval in Ukraine to become clear. The “European values ” allegedly brought to the country by overthrow of the old regime consist of massive attacks on the already impoverished working class. As a condition for loans the country urgently needs to prevent impending bankruptcy, the IMF is demanding the floating of the exchange rate of the hryvna, a brutal austerity program and a six-fold increase in the price of household gas prices.

The floating of the country’s currency will lead to raging inflation, a corresponding increase in the cost of living, and the destruction of any remaining savings by ordinary Ukrainians. The austerity program will be primarily directed against pensions and social spending and the increase in gas prices will mean that many families cannot heat their homes.

Ukraine is to be reduced to a country where well-trained workers and professionals earn wages far below those currently paid in China. This is of especial interest for Germany, Ukraine’s second largest trading partner (after Russia) and, with a volume of $7.4 billion, the second largest investor in the country.

While for the United States the isolation of Russia stands in the foreground, Germany is interested in the economic benefits of Ukraine, which it has already militarily occupied twice, in 1918 and 1941. It wants to exploit the country as a cheap labor platform and use it to drive down wages in Eastern Europe and Germany even further.

According to statistics compiled by the German Economic Institute, labor costs in Ukraine are at the low end of the international scale. At €2.50 per hour worked, average labor costs (gross wages plus other costs) for workers and clerical employees are already well below those of China (€3.17), Poland (€6.46) and Spain (€21.88). In Germany, an hour of labor costs €35.66, i.e 14 times as much.

...

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/27/geop-f27.html

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Response to Catherina (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:50 PM

23. As I said in another thread...

20% budget cuts in Ukraine is basically condemning people to freeze and starve.

And for what? All for a strategic victory that will rapidly become meaningless in this new era of scarcity.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #23)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:04 PM

40. The Orange Revolution we tried failed badly

so now this. I feel so sorry for the people of Ukraine. And a few months, years from now while they're suffering from this austerity and fighting back, all the people backing this madness and pushing the corporate propaganda will have moved on to their next jingoistic exercise without a care in the world.

Like you said- "And for what? All for a strategic victory that will rapidly become meaningless in this new era of scarcity."

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Response to Catherina (Reply #40)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:55 AM

122. Bullshit. You don't feel sorry for the people of Ukraine.

You are drumming up fairy tales for gullible folks that assumes that Ukrainians are too stupid to know what's going on in their own country.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:05 AM

88. Interesting..

 

I became aware "workshops on democracy" during Bush admin, didn't know about Germany.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:45 PM

172. I agree regarding the other countries involved, the EU NATO countries, but it seems from the

conversation in the OP regarding who WE wanted in power, the US, assuming these people are representatives of the US, were impatient with the slow pace of the EU, see the 'and f&*k the EU' comment.

I've been told here that these two were just acting on their own, having a 'normal' conversation, that the Senators and other US officials who were in Kiev as far back as Dec, just woke up one day and decided to take a vacation, in Kiev. No one has explained the money we are pouring into a country we 'have no interest in'.

There is not much interest in sorting out facts, worse, there is an interest in trying to censor facts, among some here. But the facts appear to keep slipping through, regardless.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:40 PM

11. Thank you. You're right. The entire nation was not out on the streets...

a certain group, a very financed group, was. And thanks for the information re the missiles. I'm passing this on. The U.S. version, as usual, is pure bullsh*t.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #11)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:51 PM

24. The US can't even explain what all those neocons are doing in its state department

When the co-founder of PNAC sits on the State Department's current Advisory board and his wife is directing the Ukraine traffic, well Washington, we have a big problem.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #24)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:44 AM

94. Bush jr had them in there.. didn't realize all these players were still in the game

 

but of course they are. Remember Karen Hughes? Karl Rove was involved in the Georgia crises 2008. PNAC I suspect has been in play since the Clinton administration, if not before.. too bad Obama didn't understand that crowd needed to be gone when he came in.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #94)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:15 PM

146. Clinton (Hillary) brought Nuland in as spokesperson and then Obama brought her in as Asst Sec State

DUer Koko tried to sound the bell about her.

Thursday, 19 May 2011
The strange appointment of Victoria Nuland as State Department Spokesperson
By Patricia H. Kushlis

Update: 7/12/2013 - Toria grilled about Benghazi role at Senate Foreign Relations Committee confirmation hearing today for her next high level position: Assistant Secretary of State for Europe
.
Is Hillary asleep at the switch? What is going on here?

Earlier this week, Josh Rogin at FP and Eric Martin at Progressive Realist both flagged the curious appointment of Victoria Nuland as the next State Department Spokesperson to fill P.J. Crowley’s shoes.

Martin questions whether this has foreign policy implications, in particular the replacement of an anti-torture appointee with someone who served as Principal Deputy National Security Advisor to Vice President Cheney.

Rogin doesn’t directly raise potential administration policy shifts but does point out that once upon a time Nuland was Strobe Talbott’s Chief of Staff when he was Deputy Secretary of State during the Clinton Administration and that Talbott had thought very highly of her at the time and still does. In fact, he, according to Rogin, praised her to the hilt in an interview about the pending appointment. So the seemingly amoral Nuland, we’re led to believe, can and will do anyone’s bidding and do it well – in short, a consummate career diplomat.

Why?

But why would Hillary Clinton and the Obama administration agree to appoint to this politically sensitive position someone who willingly served such a controversial figure in suppporting and implementing the “war on terror” and all the baggage that comes with it? Furthermore, how reliable is a Talbott reference anyway? After all, I understand that he just helped his friend Robert Kagan, Nuland’s neocon husband, get a job at Brookings and Talbott is also a friend of neocon writer Marc Gerecht, the husband of Diane Zeleny who also just latched onto a likely sweetheart deal sort of appointment as Head of External Relations and Congressional Affairs at the Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG). Whether Zeleny deserves or is qualified for the position or not.

From what I know about the Department, an FSO doesn’t just get detailed to the staff of a highly charged and ideological Vice President unless that detailee agrees to follow the boss’s dictates. Cheney’s were all too often forceful and odious. Furthermore, does anyone really think that Cheney –with his penchant for super loyalty and secrecy - would have ever accepted Nuland (or anyone else) for the position without some kind of loyalty test?
Surely the State Department under Hillary Clinton could have found equally (or likely even better) qualified career candidates who do not carry Nuland’s political baggage.

Behind the scenes trade off?
......Continued at the Link.....

http://whirledview.typepad.com/whirledview/2011/05/the-strange-appointment-of-victoria-nuland-as-states-spokesperson.html


Then Obama taped her as Assistant Secretary of State last year. Here's her Sept 13 2013 swearing in, presided over by Kerry, with her PNAC husband on the stage with her.


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Response to Catherina (Reply #146)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:51 PM

153. This is a most odious revelation, but explains a great deal.

 

Anyone following the "Government Continuity" policy (or whatever it's called) closely wouldn't be surprised.

I have not followed it closely, in terms of behind the scenes actors, programs and policies closely enough and continue to be stunned. While I shook off the rose colored glasses in 2008/2009, it appears the veil over my eyes still remained, until now.

thanks for that Catherina.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #153)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:27 PM

157. Odious and depressing. The excuse these are Bush hangovers holds no water

not when a democratic administration is appointing them. I finally admitted to myself that our government is run like any corporation with 15/20 year plans. You're welcome.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #157)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:28 PM

174. Re: Bush Hangovers..

 



The excuse these are Bush hangovers holds no water not when a democratic administration is appointing them. I finally admitted to myself that our government is run like any corporation with 15/20 year plans.


It wouldn't surprise to find hangovers from administrations going back to Raygun, which of course includes Clinton admin. The prospect of Hillary heading the ticket 2016 is just as odious as another Bush or John-hear-me-roar-Mccain.

Obama just a another figure head for the PTB with very little if any independence that he can or chooses not to assert.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #174)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:34 PM

186. Bush Sr under Reagan... and it's like he, and his cronies, never left

This is where Octafish's "BFEE" is important.

I don't think our President, just like in any corporation, makes policy or decides what to implement anymore. It seems the best they have is how to implement and how to drag their feet if they don't like it. We need a top to bottom cleaning.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #186)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:19 PM

199. top to bottom "house cleaning" and a complete paradigm shift

 

Completely agree with you, Catherina but it ain't gonna happen.. but you're quite correct, that is what's needed.

in the meantime..., we'll just have to continue to work to counter the Reich Wing-nut propaganda which seems to be proliferating here.. Thank you again for doing just that!

Some du members would do well to understand that raygun (misspelling intended) isn't held in high esteem for damn good reason.. Nothing but a mild mannered evil fuck he was, in the name of "freedom" and all the euphemisms that he worked into the vernacular was left in the dust bin where it belongs.. to see sneers, jeers and smears by some "long time" members using terms like "putinistas" is classic raygun red bating. It deplorable and should be roundly rejected by all.

(Apology to you Catherina, for using this post to rant)




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Response to 2banon (Reply #199)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:27 PM

210. Yes of course- "and a complete paradigm shift"

Please, keep ranting!

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Response to Catherina (Reply #210)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:32 PM

224. Thanks...

 

Did you see Tom's excellent essay posted this afternoon? It's well written and gives a very balanced analysis.

adding link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=356154

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Response to 2banon (Reply #224)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 06:39 AM

232. I hadn't so thanks for pointing it out. Rec'd to the max! Tom's analysis is spot on

Well done Tom! Thanks 2banon!

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Response to Catherina (Reply #24)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:45 AM

114. It's called American corruption. At the very best of circumstances...

it's the kettle meet pot story. At the very worst, it's just pure American unethical and criminal activity.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #114)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:22 PM

156. +1 for your insightful comment n/t

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #11)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:25 PM

74. it's weird you take the Russian version in large scoops and reflexively say US is bullshit

 

why? Do you have some notion that Russian propagandists don't lie?

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #74)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:43 AM

113. Here's what I no longer do...

I no longer believe ONE word the U.S. says when there's a regime change somewhere.

Someone posted an excellent article that I think will make quite clear why I have gone from skeptical, to simply not believing one word said by the U.S. about a country that is suddenly destabilized, and where a government has been ousted: http://www.alternet.org/world/35-countries-where-us-has-supported-fascists-druglords-and-terrorists?page=0%2C7&akid=11570.44541.DMoSeo&rd=1&src=newsletter966557&t=12

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:48 AM

115. A certain group?



Are you saying all of these people were paid off?

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #115)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:50 AM

117. Yup, like Venezuela. As I said, "same sh*t, different day" - just more of U.S. activity

around the world. Isn't it pretty.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #117)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:52 AM

120. You are a total and complete fool if you believe....

....the US has paid off thousands upon thousands of ordinary Ukrainians to go protest things that many people would protest without needed a single dime of bribery.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #120)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:05 PM

126. Oh wow. The U.S. is a blameless, innocent nation...

I don't know whom you think you're convincing of that. This is the same crap the U.S. has done before, and every time it does it, it claims it hasn't had a hand in it, until documentation comes pouring out proving it did.

Carry on thinking that the U.S. is simply an innocent bystander.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #126)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:36 PM

136. I never said that.

But this isn't Chile or Iran. This wasn't a military coup.

This was a popular uprising comprised of real Ukrainians, not paid by anyone. I know, because I have actual family members of mine participating in it, and none of them saw a single penny for their work.

And the Ukrainians were protesting real and not imaginary issues, issues that anyone in their right mind would have protested. Unless you want to claim there was no rampant corruption in the Yanukovych government.

Is it so hard to believe that people in their own country can be fed up with events in their own country? And that they can take to the streets without any foreign provocation?

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #136)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:15 PM

148. According to you. The same is said after every U.S.-financed coup, until the docs come out nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #148)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:32 PM

151. Is it not true there were thousands of Ukrainian protesters on the street?

Is it or is it not true that the Yanukovych government had been documented as being highly corrupt?

Is it or is it not true that Russia has a long history of meddling in Ukrainian affairs, which can be confirmed by what we see on the news today?

Is it or is it not true that the Svoboda party only constitutes 8% of the Ukrainian Rada, that they are not at the very top of the interim government and they are not expected to win the Ukrainian presidency when elections are held in May? Or that they're not even actually neo-Nazi but instead ultra-nationalist (not that either is in any way good, but they are indeed different things)?

These facts alone controvert the claims in the garbage OP. They are undeniable. You don't need to wait for "docs to come out" to realize that.

Get your head out of your ass, why don't you?

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #155)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:33 PM

162. Wow. I hadn't read that. Thank you, Sarah. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #162)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:54 PM

166. You're welcome! nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #155)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:40 PM

176. Paul Craig Roberts.

Wow. You just posted a Paul Craig Roberts article where his smoking gun that Ukrainian protesters are being paid off are two personal emails....to Paul Craig Roberts.

What's next? Sandy Hook Hoax stories?

Paul Craig Fucking Roberts.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #176)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:43 PM

177. You are having the same reaction of supporters before the documentation is pouring out by the

mega-folios on U.S. involvement in regime change. You're very desperate for the U.S. to maintain control out there.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #177)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:56 PM

178. You've gone totally delusional.

You actually think it is logical that the United States and European Union to be paying people to protest issues that are important to them but which you claim is inconsequential. These were tens of thousands of people, at least. And that was just in downtown Kiev.

Do you have any idea how crazy the logistics of such an operation would be? How hard that would be to keep under the radar?

I'm desperate for nothing. I just care about the interests of my family members and their fellow countrymen and don't much appreciate the slander from bored US conspiracy theorists.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #178)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:21 PM

179. Not at all. You think that a double standard is perfectly fine when it comes to the U.S.

And it isn't.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #179)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:27 PM

181. What the hell does a double standard for the US have to do with anything????

All I care about is a truthful, factual, reality based account of what happened in Ukraine that is free from nonsensical creative speculation by people who know jack shit about what happened but pretend they know all.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #181)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:28 PM

182. As do I, and that's now what you're supporting. You're supporting the U.S. MSM view. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #182)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:29 PM

184. No. I'm supporting my family members view, who've told me firsthand what's going on.

Which is what makes people like you so maddening, because you'll post to Paul Craig Roberts and then claim to be an expert on the situation, when you have no fucking clue on the situation. No fucking clue.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #184)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:33 PM

185. Fine, you'll ignore history and ignore any other facts, so let's agree to disagree. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #185)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:38 PM

188. But you can't just say, "Well we did it in Chile and Iran, so we did it in Ukraine."

It doesn't work like that. What has happened in Ukraine is nothing like what happened in Chile and Iran. The things you are arguing regarding Ukraine are nearly impossible to prove because they are so ludicrous. You just can't pay off thousands and thousands of protesters, nor can you pretend they had nothing to protest.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #188)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:40 PM

189. Ok, but I can say that there are things in this that sound like other regime changes

carried out by the U.S. or with their money, training, arrangement or blessing.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #189)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:44 PM

190. So what other US sponsored revolution involved thousands of protesters being paid off? nt

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #190)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:05 PM

194. Oh come on now. Now you'd like me to explain the tactics of manufacturing dissent?

Here, start with this simple explanation of how the U.S. engages in regime change, and how they attain it while remaining in the background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #194)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:23 PM

200. And name one of those where the US put on its payroll thousands and thousands of protesters..

With the expectation that the government at that time would topple as a result of those mass protests.

We're not talking about a military coup here.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #200)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:31 PM

202. Exactly as in all the cases in which the U.S. created regime change, the names are not known until

later. Right now you are asking the impossible. However, when all of this comes out, it will be (as with all the other regime changes courtesy of the U.S.) much too late to do anything about it.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #202)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:36 PM

205. So you can't answer my question?

There's never been a prior example to your recollection where the US has chosen to enact regime change by paying off thousands of protesters in the hopes that it will end with the desired result with the desired people in power?

Why would anyone want to do something so incredibly inefficient and chancy?

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #205)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:47 PM

206. Wait, let me phone the CIA and find out for you. I'll let you know in a moment

all the operatives of this.

Sheesh. You leave me amazed.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #206)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:50 PM

207. You gave me a Wiki page.

Which lists covert US actions in foreign countries in an attempt to foment regime change.

I asked from those examples, which of those involved the US paying off thousands of protesters for mass protests as the main mechanism to seek such change.

You've yet to give me one example comparable to what has happened in Ukraine.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #207)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:55 PM

213. Oh, hold on, let me zoom to the future when all the data is collected, so I can

provide it all to you.

Really? I mean REALLY?

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #213)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 12:28 AM

227. You know, you can just as easily say, "No."

As in, "No, I'm not aware of any prior example where the US had attempt to covertly achieve regime change by paying off thousands of protesters."

It's not that hard.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #227)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 12:59 AM

228. Let's drop your pointless game. I'll continue to expose the truth, and you, the lies. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #228)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 08:11 AM

233. Except when you can't actually tell me what your "truth" is. nt

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #233)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:19 AM

237. No, I told you what it is. You're the one insisting it is wrong because you support

U.S. intervention just about everywhere.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #237)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:37 AM

242. No.

I support a proper narrative of what happened in Ukraine that is free from baseless, paranoid creative speculation.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #242)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 04:23 PM

244. Yeah right. nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #117)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:52 PM

154. You seem to have fallen for the myth of American Omnipotence more thoroughly than most Neocons...

If this had been your standard vanilla "small group of army officers seize control" sort of deal your suspicions might be reasonable, but when it comes to popular movements like this involving large segments of society, it strains credulity to say that it was planned in advance.

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Response to WatermelonRat (Reply #154)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:08 PM

169. If the original leader had been put there via a military coup, I might be tempted to believe you...

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:41 PM

12. Thanks Catherina

Nice to see you.

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:51 PM

25. Hi Malaise!

Nice to see you too

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:42 PM

14. You linked to Alex Jones

they helped forge and not let “armed extremists” directly threaten Ukrainian sovereignty.

http://www.infowars.com/this-is-how-the-new-government-in-ukraine-deals-with-opponents/


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Response to ProSense (Reply #14)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:00 PM

34. No, the author linked to a youtube video there

and as DU's formatting doesn't allow linking to a video without embedding it, I followed suite. Of course you'd have a problem with the intermediary but that's typical.

Here, allow me to embed the video for you so you can keep your cursor pure or something.


'Like an animal': Video goes viral of Ukraine nationalist activist attacking prosecutor

A video has surfaced online of Alexander Muzychko, a former mercenary who fought in Chechnya, and current leader of the ultra nationalist group known as the Right Sector. It shows his method of dealing with the remaining authorities. Muzychko barged into a prosecutor's office in Central Ukraine and attacked an employee while demanding to see the prosecutor, who was not there. He then began to terrorise staff members, assaulting one of them and threatening to tie him up and drag him out, quote, "like an animal".


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Response to Catherina (Reply #34)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:03 PM

38. It's a link to Alex Jones. The video is being used to push the site's twisted garbage. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #38)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:03 PM

65. then alert it

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Response to ProSense (Reply #38)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:16 PM

70. That's the problem with TRUTH.......

 

...sometimes idiots use it from time to time. Even Alex Jones can say truthful things on occasion. Law of averages and everything, etc.....

- But it's the greedy and pernicious politicians who know they're lying assholes that we have to be concerned about. You know the ones I'm talking about, I'm sure......

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #70)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:18 PM

71. "Even Alex Jones can say truthful things on occasion."

Yeah, the kook is just misunderstood.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #71)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:27 PM

75. Funny......

 

...that's the same thing Obama's supporters say about him.

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #75)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:29 PM

77. Well,

"that's the same thing Obama's supporters say about him. "

...I'll let you defend Alex Jones. He appears to mean something special to you.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #77)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:33 PM

79. All beings are ''special'' to me.

 

- Even Obama. Until we all learn this, there'll be no peace.

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #79)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:38 PM

82. Bush is "special" to you.

Yoo is "special" to you.

"Until we all learn this, there'll be no peace."

Go make "peace" with them.

Alex Jones is still a kook.


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Response to ProSense (Reply #82)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:39 PM

83. You can be their judge.

 

Not me.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:42 PM

16. I'm gonna bet you won't be deterred...

by all the bullshit posts on this thread.

We need more of that.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #16)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:52 PM

28. I can't see them ;)

Life is too short to waste time with misdirection, especially poor misdirection at that.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #28)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:55 PM

32. Good for you....

As my momma always said: Consider the source.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #32)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:15 PM

173. Yes, let us consider the source.

 


During the first weeks of the Libyan Revolution, Catherina started a new thread every day in which she posted hundreds of posts to keep us updated on the events in Libya. Most of these included "proof" that the West was backing Ghadaffi, and that Ghadaffi was a monster who brutalized his own people.

When the West started openly supporting the rebels, Catherina went dark for several hours.

The next day Catherina was back with a new thread in which she posted hundreds of posts to keep us updated on the events in Libya. Most of these included "proof" that the entire rebellion had been orchestrated by the West against Ghadaffi who was the only ruler in North Africa who took decent care of his people.

When I pointed out this blatant reversal, she flat out denied it. I posted a dozen links to her daily threads for the previous dozen days, and Catherina simply continued denying the links existed.


DU loves to accuse people of being paid propagandists. And there are several I would not be shocked to learn were true. But there is only one that I have 0% doubt of being a professional propagandist. And that is Catherina. She has proven this beyond any reasonable doubt.


Concerning the question, “did the West orchestrate the Ukrainian Revolution,” I would answer, “at a bare minimum, the West helped orchestrate it.” Obviously Ukrainians had to be involved (unless we believe they were CIA cyborgs). If the West did not seek them out beforehand, we certainly got in contact early in the process.

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Response to ieoeja (Reply #173)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:29 PM

183. Lol. Too funny. And this from the king, or queen, of self-delete to obliterate your record here

so that no one can keep track of the falsehoods and deceitfulness, like your post above. Thankfully the majority of posters here followed that closely enough to understand how much work and passion I put into those threads when it first looked like a populist uprising and how bitterly disappointed I was when I found out what a sham the precious 'revolution' there was.

LMFAO ieoeja

https://www.google.com/search?q=ieoeja&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com#q=ieoeja+%22This+message+was+self-deleted+by+its+author+%22+site%3Ademocraticunderground.com

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Response to Catherina (Reply #183)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:53 PM

192. PWNED!

 

Awesome job Cat! Gee...no transparency for that one!? Now what could that mean!?

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Response to Rex (Reply #192)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:06 PM

195. It's too funny how some here think their indirect slandering won't be noticed

because they make it to a third party and it won't show up under "responses to my posts". Too funny lol.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #195)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:10 PM

196. Oh I noticed 4 or 5 people going directly into 'attack mode' as soon as they saw your name.

 

Pathetic, but predictable.

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Response to Rex (Reply #196)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:29 PM

201. You are being taken for a ride.

 


This poster is a pure propagandist.

The deletes came a couple months back when I became thoroughly disgusted with this site and was going to purge myself of the place. I lurked ... rarely ... for awhile. Got bored. Started lurking more. Saw the occasional thing to which I just HAD to respond.

In fact, I mostly stay logged off because, just prior to saying "fuck it", I first put a bunch of people on ignore, and found I was missing a lot of the more outrageous shit. I only logged on today to warn people about Catherina. Also had to take a couple of posters off ignore the past two days because I just HAD to respond to their shit.

In particular, this one needed laughed at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=747105





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Response to Rex (Reply #196)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:13 PM

208. It's always the same ones too lol.

I think it's the budget cuts

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Response to ieoeja (Reply #173)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:54 PM

225. yowza!

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:49 PM

21. reccing hard

 

Rewriting history is what fascists do best.Glad to see you spell out the actual facts and actual history instead of the sanitized shit coming from the US. Projection comes naturally to economically violent terrorists such as those that occupy positions in our government.

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Response to frwrfpos (Reply #21)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:54 PM

30. I noticed that too. Thankfully there are many solid, respected authors out there

who won't play ball.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:53 PM

29. Nice source: Paul Craig Roberts

"At about the same time Nuland was wooing fascist extremists"
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/23/democracy-murdered-protest-ukraine-falls-intrigue-violence/

Having interfered in Ukraine’s internal affairs and lost control, Washington is now issuing ultimatums to Russia not to interfere in Ukraine. Does the idiot Susan Rice, Obama’s neoconservative National Security Advisor, think Putin is going to pay any attention to her ultimatums or to any instruction from a government so militarily incompetent that it was unable to successfully occupy Baghdad after 8 years or to defeat a few thousand lightly armed Taliban after 12 years? In only took a few hours for Russian troops to destroy the American and Israeli trained and armed Georgian army that Washington sent to invade South Ossetia.

Where does Obama find morons like Susan Rice and Victoria Nuland? These two belong in a kindergarten for mentally handicapped children, not in the government of a superpower where their ignorance and arrogance can start World War 3.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:55 PM

31. that may set the record

 

for the longest propaganda OP in the history of DU

Grats

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:02 PM

35. Wasn't it within the past few days...

that a poster was begging for evidence of Pootiebots on DU?

Gosh and golly. Wherever could they be?

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Response to OilemFirchen (Reply #35)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:00 PM

61. Oh yeah, you remember that too, huh??

You could hear the HARRUMPHING at the mere thought that there were pro-Putin posters here from a mile away. Even denied it when folks kicked up EarlG's graphic from September lampooning said supporters.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:03 PM

37. kick

 

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:11 PM

43. I dont see where the us would do anything different from moscow on this.

 

we screwed the pooch on this one, that's for sure.

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Response to RedstDem (Reply #43)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:53 PM

47. I don't either

All In w/Chris HayesVerified account ‏@allinwithchris

"If I were Putin I would have done exactly what Putin did." - Col. Lawrence Wilkerson #inners

https://twitter.com/allinwithchris/status/440665297805008896


And everyone damn well knows it.

Wilkerson repeated that on Chris Hayes, it's at minute 4:45



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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:12 PM

49. If the corporations support it, it must be a "democracy" worthy of our "protection". K&R

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #49)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:51 PM

54. They sure loved sponsoring Nuland's talk about Austerity and the IMF

The reforms that the IMF insists on are necessary for the long-term economic health of the country. A new deal with the IMF would also send a positive signal to private markets and would increase foreign direct investment that is so urgently needed in Ukraine. Signing the Association Agreement with the EU would also put Ukraine on the path to strengthening the sort of stable and predictable business environment that investors require. (...) it would be a huge shame to see five years’ worth of work and preparation go to waste if the AA is not signed in the near future. So it is time to finish the job.

(..) the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine.
(...)
The support of the people in this room is absolutely essential. We thank you for all you are doing. We thank you for your partnership all these years, and we look forward to continuing to stand shoulder to shoulder with you as we take Ukraine into the future that it deserves.

- Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the State Department, wife of PNAC co-founder Robert Kagan
Friday, December 13, 2014


Sponsors include: U.S.-Ukraine Business Council (USUBC), ExxonMobil, Chevron, Monsanto, System Capital Management, GlobalLogic, Monsanto, Coca-Cola

Cute how the Chevron logo is right behind her

&feature=player_embedded

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Response to Catherina (Reply #54)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:56 AM

97. +1

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:15 PM

50. I'm glad you answered the call: who are the pro-Putin posters on DU?? nt

 

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:17 PM

51. Welcome back!

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #51)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:55 PM

58. Thanks

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:26 PM

52. Thank you, Catherina. I clicked on this link when I saw your name,

 

knowing I would find substantive information. I remain grateful for your compilation of tweets during the Egyptian popular revolt.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #52)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:53 PM

56. Why thank you! And doubly so

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #52)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:44 AM

93. +1 nt

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:26 PM

53. Glad to see someone supporting Russian Imperialism.

Wow.


Those stupid Ukrainians, what did they think, they were allowed to run their own country without Putin's consent?

You either support sovereign nations to have the government they decide to have, or you don't.

I see you don't.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #53)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:34 AM

98. I've spent the last ten minutes looking for who was supporting Imperialism, Russian Imperialism and

I just couldn't find them here.

This is rather ironic though 'You either support sovereign nations to have the government they decide to have, or you don't'.

I do, most definitely, EVEN when the elected leader turns out to be a war criminal, (see eight years of Bush right here) I so respect the Democratic process where people choose who they want for President, that it never even occurred to me that we should consider toppling that horrific and dangerous regime. Why? Because elections keep a country CIVILIZED and when mob rule takes over, serious problems always follow. Countries can split in two, civil wars can start, but toppling governments from the street never turn out well for anyone.

Btw, Yanukovich WAS elected by a majority of the people right? And there was an election coming up. Why on earth would they risk violence when had they waited a few months they could have had what they wanted.

Or could they? Perhaps they didn't think they were in the majority and that they might lose if the issue was to be resolved through the electoral process? Otherwise it makes no sense to topple a government by coup.

I support sovereign nations, even when leaders turn out not to be so great. Elections are the way for sovereign nations to remove bad leaders.

Btw, how do you feel about Crimea choosing to declare their Independence from Ukraine? Will you respect THEIR right to do so?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #98)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:17 AM

108. From the article:

"Let’s be clear about what is at stake here: NATO missiles on the adjacent Ukraine border aimed directly at Russia would make that country extremely vulnerable to Western goals and destabilization efforts while threatening Russia’s only water access to its naval fleet in Crimean peninsula, the Balkans, the Mediterranean Sea and the Middle East....."

This piece is garbage, pure garbage.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #53)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:33 AM

111. "You either support sovereign nations to have the government they decide to have, or you don't."

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Response to polly7 (Reply #111)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:34 PM

134. And two wrongs don't make a right.

Russian Imperialism is a real thing. It is just being ignored by those whose narrative won't accept that reality.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #134)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:30 PM

160. Or, it's being ignored for the bullshit it is in this case regarding Crimea. nt.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:57 PM

59. Catherina

Your detractors don't even seem to appreciate the photo of the neo-nazi standing next to McCain. Did they think he was Kiefer Sutherland/Jack Bauer?

Having watched Ukraine flip at little real cost, it seems that the Empire's cheerleaders still need to feel that smug satisfaction that only being in the right can bring. And they can YOU a propagandist?

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Response to TomClash (Reply #59)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:30 PM

78. Willfully blind. No notice of the Cheney Advisor or PNAC neocons in the State Department either.

Posted by DUer Koko:

Thursday, 19 May 2011
The strange appointment of Victoria Nuland as State Department Spokesperson
By Patricia H. Kushlis

Update: 7/12/2013 - Toria grilled about Benghazi role at Senate Foreign Relations Committee confirmation hearing today for her next high level position: Assistant Secretary of State for Europe.

Is Hillary asleep at the switch? What is going on here?

Earlier this week, Josh Rogin at FP and Eric Martin at Progressive Realist both flagged the curious appointment of Victoria Nuland as the next State Department Spokesperson to fill P.J. Crowley’s shoes.

Martin questions whether this has foreign policy implications, in particular the replacement of an anti-torture appointee with someone who served as Principal Deputy National Security Advisor to Vice President Cheney.

Rogin doesn’t directly raise potential administration policy shifts but does point out that once upon a time Nuland was Strobe Talbott’s Chief of Staff when he was Deputy Secretary of State during the Clinton Administration and that Talbott had thought very highly of her at the time and still does. In fact, he, according to Rogin, praised her to the hilt in an interview about the pending appointment. So the seemingly amoral Nuland, we’re led to believe, can and will do anyone’s bidding and do it well – in short, a consummate career diplomat.

Why?

But why would Hillary Clinton and the Obama administration agree to appoint to this politically sensitive position someone who willingly
served such a controversial figure in supporting and implementing the “war on terror” and all the baggage that comes with it?

Furthermore, how reliable is a Talbott reference anyway? After all, I understand that he just helped his friend Robert Kagan, Nuland’s
neocon husband, get a job at Brookings and Talbott is also a friend of neocon writer Marc Gerecht, the husband of Diane Zeleny who also just latched onto a likely sweetheart deal sort of appointment as Head of External Relations and Congressional Affairs at the Broadcasting

Board of Governors (BBG). Whether Zeleny deserves or is qualified for the position or not.

From what I know about the Department, an FSO doesn’t just get detailed to the staff of a highly charged and ideological Vice President unless that detailee agrees to follow the boss’s dictates. Cheney’s were all too often forceful and odious. Furthermore, does anyone really think that Cheney –with his penchant for super loyalty and secrecy - would have ever accepted Nuland (or anyone else) for the position without some kind of loyalty test?

Surely the State Department under Hillary Clinton could have found equally (or likely even better) qualified career candidates who do not carry Nuland’s political baggage.

Behind the scenes trade off?
......Continued at the Link.....

http://whirledview.typepad.com/whirledview/2011/05/the-strange-appointment-of-victoria-nuland-as-states-spokesperson.html


Taken from http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024461021#post2

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Response to TomClash (Reply #59)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:40 PM

137. People going apeshit over a single picture of two politicians in the political minority.

And totally ignoring the pictures of thousands upon thousands of Ukrainians from all backgrounds and ideologies.

Notice that was missing from this "journalism." Very little mention at all of the thousands of protesters. Just a few scary ultranationalists and a failed US Presidential candidate.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:01 PM

63. do you like doing all of that extra formatting of bolding, adding images, etc?

 

just curious why you don't provide a couple of teaser lines and just link the write up.

BTW, welcome back.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #63)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:27 PM

76. Do you object to information being made clearly available? I don't, I don't always click links so

appreciate having the information right there. It seems like an odd concern. I haven't read all of it yet, but I intend to. Have you read any of it, what do you think about the information provided? DU has always been a good place to come to to cut through the Corporate Media haze. It's where I learned most of what I know. I'm happy to see more information on current events being provided lately, and hope we see more with lots of discussion so we actually know what we are talking about when we claim to be experts on these events.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #76)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:53 PM

165. Hahahaha. It was a question without agenda

 

Some people would describe you as searching and searching to find "news" sources which confirm your previously held view of the world even if such "news" sources are universally suspect in their accuracy and objectivity.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:02 PM

64. Courage. K&R nt

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:05 PM

66. Nice work Catherina

We can always count on you to drill down into the subject and hit the truth.
Kicked and highly recommended.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #66)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:21 PM

129. Thanks Zee

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:09 PM

68. Source page not found?

This chronology is missing a lot of stuff.
Namely the Russian responses from 2011 to present.
While the chronology as presented is pretty damning, the sourcing for the various statements either don't link to actual data or are from very dubious sources.

One of the things that I keep seeing is that the US wants to put missile bases in Ukraine. To what end?
This kind of fear mongering is a huge problem. We have no need to put missile bases in Ukraine, and the continuing use of this meme underscores the lack of real knowledge about modern warfare. A nuclear exchange is fatal to all sides.

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Response to blackspade (Reply #68)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:39 PM

85. CD's links have been messing up all afternoon (servr maintenance?)

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Response to Catherina (Reply #85)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:44 PM

86. Thanks, but that doesn't address the terrible sourcing for the

Chronology.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:24 PM

73. They're shopping for a war.

 

- Any war will do.

K&R

[center]''The real value of a conflict, the true value, is in the debt that it creates.
You control the debt -- you control everything.''



[center]

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:35 PM

80. k/r

 

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:13 AM

90. god, you fall for russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker...

our media sucks, so you trust one infinitely worse.. oy...

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Response to dionysus (Reply #90)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:06 AM

101. our media is on par with theirs in the world of propaganda

 

certainly not infinitely worse.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #90)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:33 PM

175. Catherina does not fall for Russian propaganda.

 

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:29 AM

91. Seriously? I mean, seriously?

All this piece really is is stringing along various snippets, most of which have no actual correlation to one another, to create one giant bright shiny object for the "It must be the CIA and/or neo-cons" crowd. Neo-Nazis! Western Aid! John McCain!

Meanwhile this piece of tripe you posted fails to even consider for a single minute the fact that thousands upon thousands of Ukrainians who took it upon their own free will to demonstrate against their president his corrupt practices, the evidence of which is nearly undeniable, and Russian meddling in Ukrainian affairs, something long documented by history and something that yet again has manifested itself as we speak.

Yes. You actually forgot to mention the Ukrainian people (spare a few "neo-nazis" and what they did and how they feel. But no need for them to get in the way of a good story.

But sure. You wrote (actually you just posted) a good story. And looking at the rec figures, you got at least 30 people (and counting) to swallow your crap hook line and sinker. The thing is, though, it's nothing new. People have put together a well-written, seemingly well-researched and documented case that the Twin Towers on September 11th were detonated by bombs set off by the US government and that the airplanes people saw hit live on TV really didn't hit the towers after all. And hundreds of thousands of people believe that to be the gospel truth.

This shit belongs in Creative Speculation.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #91)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:55 AM

103. this is how some people view the world

no matter what we discuss. egypt, syria, north korea, ukraine etc .

it's always about some conspiracy involving US organizations .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #103)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 11:28 AM

110. Which is not to say it has never happened....

Iran, Chile....and a few others.

But the narrative that what has happened in Ukraine was a "coup" manufactured by the West (thousands upon thousands of protesters and what they had to say about their own situation be damned) and that "neo-nazis" were "installed" has to be some of the most contemptible, delusional bullshit imaginable.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #110)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 01:10 AM

231. Well, that's the Russian / Putinist narrative.

Putin had to intervene in Crimea because of overwhelming ethnic Russian persecution, etc. That's literally the argument being made. When there exist only persecution of ethnic Russians by Russians. In Moscow (or Donetsk, Ukraine, the only oblast to reach out as pro-Russia, out of all of Ukraine, without an armed occupying force reinstalling their government).

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Response to JI7 (Reply #103)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:43 PM

152. It's the conspiracy theory mindset...

Made hyperlarge by the internet and 24-hour newscycle.

This is where sharp minded, reason oriented, skeptical minded individual need to rise above the lizard brain, knee jerk, reactionary people who run on emotions. I am not talking about one side here; I see both sides sounding like big machines of distorted thought, so much so that I can't decide what to think about Ukraine. Instead, discussion like this lead me to a conclusion away from the subject at hand; this: humanity isn't all that evolved from apes, are doomed to die sooner than we think and wouldn't be that great of loss to the universe anyways.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #103)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 01:06 AM

230. It's American exceptionalism, rebranded.

Basically Americans are so exceptional they have a finger on every single bit of unrest that would be seen as favorable to the United States of America.

Everything. We're so damned good we can foment uprisings in any country we wish. At the snap of a finger.

Pax Americana glorified.

(Oh, except they do it in the small hopes that the unrest works out against America's interests, but it never does, because American interests are rather simple, the march forward of globalization.)

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:53 AM

95. K&R'd

 

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:54 AM

96. Recommend

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:54 AM

99. So happy to see you back. eom

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Response to Cleita (Reply #99)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:03 PM

125. Thanks Cleita!

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:00 AM

100. Omg, that conversation between Nuland and Pyatt! Unbelievable! Americans should be outraged

at what we were doing around the world. Let ANYONE say the US was not involved in all this in the face of all the available evidence now.

Some people can't handle the truth so they point fingers at Russia, or ANYWHERE rather than allow people to focus on the facts.

Just totally disgusted. We railed against Bush/Cheney for this kind of meddling in the affairs of other people. Now we are lauding it. What hypocrites.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #100)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:01 PM

123. It's plain as day that Nuland was there for a specific purpose.

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Response to jsr (Reply #123)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:22 PM

130. I love how none of the detractors still have any comment on Nuland, her PNAC husband on the board

and how this is exactly what PNAC was set up to do.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #100)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:20 PM

128. Agreed- Unbelievable. "They WILL take the IMF deal!"

EU offers Ukraine $15 bln, but help hinges on IMF deal

....

While the EU's $15 billion offer is likely to be warmly received in Kiev, it is still contingent on the government striking a deal with the IMF on a longer-term aid package.

After years of bad relations between Ukraine and the IMF, the indications are that an agreement can be struck, although it will still require some harsh economic medicine for Ukraine.

At the same time, the United States is finalising its plans for assistance to Ukraine's new leaders, including around $1 billion of loan guarantees. It has said it will also send technical experts to advise the central bank and finance ministry on how to tackle economic crisis.

"but help hinges on IMF deal"

So they've installed Yatseniuk, the puppet Nuland wanted in that conversation and he's going to dole out the "harsh austerity medicine". The IMF team was dispatched to Ukraine 6 days ago



and it's already begun lol. The banker they put in charge (Yatseniuk) says, well here:

After taking office late last month, Yatseniuk said the country needed $35 billion to survive the next two years. EU officials are currently in Kiev to assess more exactly its needs, which they have indicated are much lower than that.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/05/eu-ukraine-support-idUSL6N0M227R20140305


Ukraine spends between 1-1.5 Billion a year on gas alone. That loan guarantee we just gave them barely covers one monthly payment (and they're behind in their payments to Gazprom).

Bend over Ukrainian people, losing your gas subsidies and pensions is only the beginning. And you're expected to be thankful the EU is planning to dole gas out to you IF you play ball with the IMF

The EU says it will also work on providing energy to Ukraine via "reverse flows" of gas from the EU. Currently, Ukraine is almost entirely dependent on imports of Russian gas. By using "reverse flows" the EU can supply Ukraine with gas that it has received from Russia or elsewhere.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/05/eu-ukraine-support-idUSL6N0M227R20140305


my friend

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Response to Catherina (Reply #128)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:29 PM

131. The price they will have to pay for that. Already we are hearing about the takeover of people's

pensions. And that will be just the beginning. Any social programs they have going, will be 'cut' and if anyone wants to see this on speed up, just go study what their IMF loans and Austerity did to Greece and Ireland and Spain, and everywhere they economically invaded.

And Ukraine didn't VOTE for this. A small group of, as we now know, technocrats chosen by the US, have been installed and are quickly making decisions before the people even know what is going on.

I dare anyone to deny our economic invasion of Ukraine after seeing that conversation and the completion of the US Plan for Ukraine.

Democracy? Are they KIDDING?

Welcome back btw ...

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #131)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:48 PM

164. The rump parliament is ramming these things in before the people have a chance to revolt

It's going to be Greece all over again, except that in Ukraine the far, far right, neonazis, have a much larger presence, and at higher levels too.

At the most, there were never more than 50,000 people on the streets who forced this turn of events. That phone conversation is very important. How long does the West think it can control things? Just long enough to impose its 'austerity' and watch the far right rise again as it did once before in Europe when the same players imposed harsh austerity on Germans and the oligarchs, industrialists of the time assured everyone there was no problem, that they could control the ultranationalists, the nazis?

That Ukraine didn't even vote for this is very troubling.


The Clash in Crimea is the Fruit of Western Expansion
The external struggle to dominate Ukraine has put fascists in power and brought the country to the brink of conflict

Seumas Milne
The Guardian, Wednesday 5 March 2014 20.30 GMT

...


Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: NEWSNIGHT
BBC Newsnight BBC Newsnight


Fascist gangs now patrol the streets. But they are also in Kiev's corridors of power. The far right Svoboda party, whose leader has denounced the "criminal activities" of "organised Jewry" and which was condemned by the European parliament for its "racist and antisemitic views", has five ministerial posts in the new government, including deputy prime minister and prosecutor general. The leader of the even more extreme Right Sector, at the heart of the street violence, is now Ukraine's deputy national security chief.

Neo-Nazis in office is a first in post-war Europe. But this is the unelected government now backed by the US and EU. And in a contemptuous rebuff to the ordinary Ukrainians who protested against corruption and hoped for real change, the new administration has appointed two billionaire oligarchs – one who runs his business from Switzerland – to be the new governors of the eastern cities of Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk. Meanwhile, the IMF is preparing an eye-watering austerity plan for the tanking Ukrainian economy which can only swell poverty and unemployment.

From a longer-term perspective, the crisis in Ukraine is a product of the disastrous Versailles-style break-up of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s. As in Yugoslavia, people who were content to be a national minority in an internal administrative unit of a multinational state – Russians in Soviet Ukraine, South Ossetians in Soviet Georgia – felt very differently when those units became states for which they felt little loyalty.

In the case of Crimea, which was only transferred to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev in the 1950s, that is clearly true for the Russian majority. And contrary to undertakings given at the time, the US and its allies have since relentlessly expanded Nato up to Russia's borders, incorporating nine former Warsaw Pact states and three former Soviet republics into what is effectively an anti-Russian military alliance in Europe. The European association agreement which provoked the Ukrainian crisis also included clauses to integrate Ukraine into the EU defence structure.

...

© 2014 Guardian News and Media
Seumas Milne

Seumas Milne is a Guardian columnist and associate editor. His most recent book is The Revenge of History: The Battle for the 21st Century. His previous books include, The Enemy Within and Beyond the Casino Economy (co-authored with Nicholas Costello).


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/clash-crimea-western-expansion-ukraine-fascists


Thanks It's always great to see you

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #100)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:28 AM

238. +1

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:09 AM

104. Poor beleaguered Russia--they didn't WANT to invade Ukraine, they had no choice.

Putin is really the victim here, we can all see that. Teh evil US is always turning his neighbors against him with sandwiches and foreign aid. He's going to win them back with "unidentified gunmen" and tanks--tough love!

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #104)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:33 PM

133. Are you interested in knowing the facts about these issues? What do you think, eg,

about the conversation between Nuland and Pyatt planning for the ousting of Yanukovich and the installing of the US's NOT the people of Ukraine, OUR choice of leader for that nation.

And coincidentally getting everything they wanted??

Did the Ukrainian people have any choice in this? Were they even consulted?

Your comment made no reference to the FACT that we WERE deeply involved in the overthrow of an elected leader of a country where we have zero business being involved.

And we are not even respectful of our allies, the EU who apparently weren't moving fast enough to oust an elected leader. 'F&*K the EU'! Nice. Are Democrats seriously now supporting what under Bush they condemned? I think we need to know the answer to that question.

Airc we opposed Bush's policies. When did that change?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #133)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:36 PM

135. "Airc we opposed Bush's policies. When did that change?"

When you support Putin's invasion and attempt to justify it.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #135)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:52 PM

139. That old diversion thing doesn't work, haven't you learned that by now? We were behind the ousting

of a leader of a democratic state AND the installing, sans elections, of a technocrat, chosen by us while claiming to support Democracy. And at the same time, telling our allies, not exactly free from blame themselves, to 'go f*&k themselves.

Try focusing for a minute. Are you in favor of the US backing coups and then installing leaders who are not elected by the people in foreign countries?

I know that the position has been to deny we were involved, but the leaked phone calls, the conversation between Nuland and Pyatt now prove that was a huge lie.

Do you like being lied to by your own government? I know 'look over there'. Well we are and unfortunately that in no way diminishes the fact that the US is all over the world now, continuing Bush's policies which is exactly what we VOTED AGAINST.

Don't bother responding unless you are willing to address these issues. We are all sick to death of the deceptions, the diversions, the lies and Bush's policies rather than going away, being enhanced.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #133)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:47 PM

138. We didn't "oust" or overthrow anybody.

Whatever our ambassador and State Dept. there does to encourage a western/pro-US direction, it's ultimately up to the people of Ukraine to decide on a course of action--they wanted to join the EU, their president doublecrossed them on it, they got pissed off, and Weird Al disappeared and didn't stick around to fulfill the peace deal (which the US didn't even broker, but still publicly supported) because the terms weren't favorable enough to Russia. "We" didn't do that. But Russia most certainly invaded Crimea. And that's just wrong.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #138)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:54 PM

141. Did the people vote for our choice of leader? n/t

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #141)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:04 PM

143. They're a transitional government, chosen by Parliament in the abdication

of the President and his cabinet and deputies. They're what, two weeks in? They are to hold elections in May, I believe--why is that so threatening to Russia? Here's a link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014736119
http://election.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4550805

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #143)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:18 PM

149. That doesn't answer my question. The leader was clearly the choice of the US

government, see conversation in the OP. They making life changing decisions for Ukraine right now, handing the country over to the IMF and the World Bank.

What I want to know is, how do the people of Ukraine, there are tens of millions of them, feel about having their country handed over to the control of the IMF and the The World Bank. A couple of 'transitionsl' people should NOT be making such incredibly important decisions, imo. They are indebted the country for years to come to entities that are known for their abuses against populations wherever they have intervened.

So again, you admit, these people are not the choice of the people, they are OUR choice. And even if we accept them as 'transitional' that is blown away by the incredible choices they are making without waiting for a referendum from the PEOPLE!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #149)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:29 PM

150. The articles say the Parliament chose the speaker of the Parliament to assume

Presidential duties. They don't say "The United States has chosen the speaker of the Parliament to assume Presidential duties". We have to deal in the facts as known, not on theories.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #150)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:30 PM

161. They don't have to say anything, because we know now what was going on, all they need to say

IF they actually do represent all of the people, to the IMF and the World Bank, 'we need to have an election as soon as possible, presenting these issues to the people, because we are just a transitional government and do not have the right to make these decisions without the approval of the people of the Ukraine.

I would be outraged if what is happening there were happening here. How about you?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #161)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:43 PM

163. Again, we need to deal in facts. Not conspiracy theories, not "connect the dots", not

agendas, not manipulations of emotion and arousals of suspicion. "How would you feel" isn't fact--it's argument. Russia is invading a foreign country, holding one of its regions at gunpoint, disarming and dismissing the Ukraine military on their bases, and commandeering Ukraine's ships--these are FACTS, reported by reputable news sources.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #163)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:04 PM

168. Oh I agree, couldn't agree more in fact. Eg, we were told that the US was not at all involved

in the Ukraine, in any way. Now several leaked conversations prove otherwise. We were apparently VERY involved, from Nulan to US Senators, as far back as December, to one billion dollars, actually more, being offered to the 'new government', the very guy they made clear was the one they wanted, now in power.

Had these leaks not occurred, you would be saying people were imagining things, now that there is no doubt, you are moving the goalposts again.

Just why are we giving billions of dollars to the Ukraine when we have people homeless, jobless, and starving, childrens' school lunches being cut, food stamps etc. Who is going to benefit from these billions of dollars going to a country you are saying we are not involved in??

Please do not assume that the American people are stupid. I detest being lied to by anyone, especially when the proof is right in front of us. Defend if that is your position, but do not try to tell us we are not seeing what we are seeing.

Has the US Government distanced themselves from Nulan and her machinations btw? Have they said what you are saying, 'she had no right to speak for the US'?? That would be helpful.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #168)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:15 PM

197. It is almost lol funny that DUers would read a report about the CIA monitoring

 

Congress critters and then pretend America is some shining beacon of truth and justice in the world! HELL, we cannot even police our own police! We have rogue agencies running roughshod over our supposed defenders of liberty!

BUT YEAH...just this ONE TIME we will be aboveboard!

I am beginning to believe there are huge SUCKERS on DU that actually buy into American propaganda! I only thought GOPuker Socknews peeps were that niave...I have corrected that assessment.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #149)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:14 PM

170. But isn't that the way the U.S. does things when it causes regime change?

It manipulates, spends money subverting, pays protestors, trains para-military personnel, and myriad other ways. Then later, it says, "OH BUT IT WAS ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WANTED THIS CHANGE!" And you're correct, it wasn't the choice of the people.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #170)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:17 PM

198. BUT WHEN WE DO IT

 

IT IS OKAY! GET IT!?

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Response to Rex (Reply #198)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:32 PM

203. Oopsie! Yes, I do get it now! ;-) nt

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #138)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:55 PM

142. Thank you.

A million times, thank you.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #138)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:10 PM

144. I'm following a fascinating series of comments

in a pro-Putin, anti-Hillary diary: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/06/1282523/-The-Guardian-Western-Expansion-Aims-Helped-Put-Fascists-And-Neo-Nazis-in-Power-in-Ukraine

Pro-Putin:

Some may be fascist or even neo-nazis, but what they are not is insane or stupid.

Yeah, in the same way anti-gay racists are not "insane or stupid"

"Putin or Kerry: Who’s Delusional?"


Anti-Putin

"Kerry hasn't sent troops into Ukraine, Putin has."


Didn't Angela Merkel Also Say after a conversation with Putin that he seems to have lost touch with reality?


Neo-nazis in Russia

If Putin cares so much about stopping the rise of fascists and neo-nazis that he would preemptively invade a neighboring sovereign country, then why does he allow such groups to operate openly and freely within Russia?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/11/russia-violent-anti-gay-groups-vkontakte-lgbt-sochi

Could it be that the fascist/neo-nazi angle is the excuse, not the reason?


The bizarre thing about Kremlin propaganda is that they throw all kinds of slurs at the Ukrainians.

One day, it is "Gayropa" that is at fault.

The next day it is a Jewish conspiracy.

And then it is Neo-Nazis and fascists.

If the Ukrainian revolt is driven by gay, jewish, Neo-Nazis, then Ukraine sure must be an interesting country.


I thought we were against false equivalency here.

But that's exactly what this is. "The other side has some bad elements also, and the West has some blame...

...so it's okay that Putin has invaded another country."


There's neo-Nazis in Ukraine therefore it's cool that snipers were shooting unarmed civilians engaging in public protest.


I see what you did there

Threw up a bunch of persiflage in order to get some strokes from Hillary haters. And bizarrely, after months upon months of raging against the obviously fascist dictatorship of Obama you tell us you're willing to entertain an open mind about the reign of Putin. Extra marks for novelty and entertainment value.

It's wonderful perspective. The pro-Putin comments are eerily similar to the RW's stance that Obama is a fascist/Nazi, but Putin is cool.

In the view of the pro-Putin so-called progressives, the Obama administration is supporting neo-Nazis (pure lunacy), which is why Putin's invasion is justified. Invading a country is cool. Also, never mind Putin's horrible record and actual support for laws that deny human rights, promote hate and trample on free speech and freedom of the press.

Obama is the fascist, therefore Putin is right.



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Response to ProSense (Reply #144)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:13 PM

145. Well if you can have a Muslim communist athiest President who attends a radical black church....

I guess you could have gay, Jewish, Neo-nazi CIA agents mucking things up in Ukraine.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #145)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:24 PM

171. You must spend a lot of time reading garbage from the totally discredited Faux Noose crowd, How do

know all this stuff about what the must stupid people on the planet are talking about? Wait, surely you are not attributing any of that far right wing crap to Democrats are you?

Here's the difference between Ditto Heads, 'cause it looks like YOU are confused, or are trying to blur that huge difference with that tactic THEY use, talk about them all in the same sentence and that will blur the facts with nonsense as people try to sort it out.

Let me explain something, that may work with the stupidest people on the planet, see the Right Wing Noise Machine, any part of it, but Democrats are Democrats rather than Right Wingers because they are NOT so easily bamboozled.

I notice you have a tendency to want to ignore facts as they emergt, to 'point over there' and to imply that Dems who are acknowledging irrefutable, though apparently inconvenient facts for some, are Pootie Lovers which = the old Saddam Lovers routine.

It isn't working, so my advice would be to look at the facts, like the money the US is offering to a country we have been told THEY HAVE NO INTEREST IN. Got any reason for that? Who will profit from this 'investment'?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #144)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:15 PM

147. Really kind of disturbing.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:16 PM

127. k&r

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:30 PM

132. Fantastic. Much needed. Thanks for posting. n/t

 

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #132)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:27 PM

158. Thanks

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:53 PM

140. K&R Please, everyone, distribute this beyond DU.

Thank you, Catherina.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #140)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:28 PM

159. Thanks Woo

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #140)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:33 PM

204. Already have. nt

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:24 PM

180. Thanks for posting. I only have to fit in Verhofstadt

and then it would be ready for press here.

On edit: it's great to see you post!

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Response to BelgianMadCow (Reply #180)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:38 PM

187. Please fit Verhofstadt in!

I noticed while watching DeutcheWelle, that they're very conflicted on this. On one hand they're repulsed by the neonazis and don't want to give Ukraine a dime but on the other, they want Putin out but not if he's going to cut off their gas. Their performance is totally schizophrenic.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #187)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:45 PM

191. He was there on 21st of february

http://www.euractiv.com/video/guy-verhofstadt-speaking-protest-533685



Guy Verhofstadt (Open VLD, Belgium), Liberal and Democrat Group Leader in the European Parliament, spoke to the protesters gathered in Maidan Square in Kiev about the sanctions EU put in place in order to stop the violence.

Verhofstadt was the first of the EU leaders to address those fighting for democracy in Ukraine, after the violent clashes of the last few days. He travelled to Kiev together with ALDE Group Vice-President, Marielle De Sarnez (Modem, France) and Hans van Baalen (VVD, Holland), President of Liberal International.

"We were the first to inform the people there about the EU sanctions. The reaction from the crowds was overwhelming.

I have the greatest respect for the courage of the Ukrainian people engaging in a long battle for their rights and in standing up for their values, European values.", said Verhofstadt.

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Response to BelgianMadCow (Reply #191)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:24 PM

209. "European values"? Like his austerity? LMAO

What an asshole, the Nick Clegg of the 1%! His financial package of 15 billion doesn't even pay the gas bill for a year. What an absolute twit of a man. More passing on of massive private debt onto the backs of ordinary people.

I can't wait to see your addition.


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Response to Catherina (Reply #209)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:38 PM

211. Oops, wrong place. nt.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:40 PM

212. Thanks for the chronology and background info Catherina.

The point at which the late November 2013 talks between Yanukoyvch and the EU , to discuss the trade agreement , collapsed was when the EU offered c. $1 billion despite the fact they were already aware Ukraine needed at least eight billion to get them through to summer 2014.

Special Report - Why Ukraine spurned the EU and embraced Russia

Yanukovich estimated that he needed $160 billion over three years to make up for the trade Ukraine stood to lose with Russia, and to help cushion the pain from reforms the EU was demanding. The EU refused to give such a sum, which it said was exaggerated and unjustified.

The EU offered 610 million euros ($839 million) immediately. EU officials said increased trade, combined with various aid and financing programmes, might go some way to providing Kiev with the investment it needed.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/12/19/uk-ukraine-russia-deal-idUKBRE9BI0E320131219

Increased trade ? Yes - exports to Ukraine but the EU gave no commitments as to how much they would import from Ukraine.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #212)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:55 PM

214. I think Ukraine is to be the EU's new cheap labor. Labor there is cheaper than in China

Thanks for your Reuters link. It's all there if people are smart enough to dig past the US headlines. The European press may be just as complicit but at least it goes into more depth and tries to avoid making total laughingstock out of itself.

The EU has been hilarious with Ukraine. It never offered EU membership, not that Ukraine is even closely eligible for it, but the propagandists there act as if Ukraine just, only, accepts these teeny weeny austerity cuts that will leave people freezing in winter, that they'll each get an engraved ticket to EuroDisneyland.

And here comes putsch Yatseniuk saying he'll make do with 35 billion for the next 3 years and the IMF says even that is way too much. Bend over Ukrainian people. And bend over deep.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #214)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:11 PM

217. Not EU membership but the EU did offer Schengen visas.

which some in Ukraine may not understand are "90 days anywhere within the zone and then go home"

Pretty much the same as 90 days in the US under the visa waiver program for qualifying countries - Ukraine is not a qualifying country.

I doubt they'd get actual EU membership in the foreseeable future anyway.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #217)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:28 PM

221. Yes, the beauty of deceptive packaging

This whole pretense that the fight was over EU membership is such a laughable MSM construct as I know you've already posted but the propaganda marches on. Schengen visas, what a joke.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:58 PM

215. Kick for a great thread. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #215)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:29 PM

222. Thanks Polly!

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:04 PM

216. Yup, the revolt had nothing to do with people starving and disgusted by a corrupt

 

government...nothing...I'm so sick of paranoid BS like this that parades as facts...if the unrec button were still here, you'd have a few hundred.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #216)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:14 PM

218. Why not post links to dispute the facts ?



"people starving" - are you aware of the terms the EU will want for loans which will match those of the IMF ? The terms are so onerous Ukraine will finish up making Greece look like a picnic.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #218)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:16 PM

219. I've been to the Ukraine...I have friends and family there...so unless you have...

 

take this paranoid bullshit elsewhere.

And don't accept this Bullshit op of speculation as fact...it's sickening the crap that is posted here and how many people eat it up.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #219)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:27 PM

220. Spot price for gas is c. $400 / 1000 cu metres

and that's more or less, or will be , the price the Ukraine pays Russia for gas.

Now ask your friends and family how much they pay for it as consumers - you may find its a about 10% of that price. Ukraine will be expected to stop selling gas to consumers at a loss.

They will also be able to expect their currency to devalued and an overall reduction in government costs including the provision of pensions.

All the above is very easy to search so don't tell me its bullshit.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #220)

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 08:30 PM

223. Yeah, and they're all Nazis being lead astray by the West...

 

Yeah it is bullshit...because if you search youn get garbage like the op and so many like them...nothing to do with disgust ata corrupt government right...the people int he Ukraine are idiots and don't know what they're doing, right...fuck that absolute disgusting bullshit.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #219)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 01:00 AM

229. Wow, now even Bozo the Clown has "friends and family' in the Ukraine!

Is it a new fad? Maybe I'll be from the Ukraine too!

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #229)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:32 AM

239. I have an Uncle (in law) from the Ukraine .... that makes me Ukrainian too!

Доброго ранку Сара

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Response to polly7 (Reply #239)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 04:28 PM

245. Hey, I think I'm turning Ukrainian! nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #229)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:36 AM

241. Then you might want to start by stop calling it "the Ukraine."

It's non-standard.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #218)


Response to polly7 (Reply #236)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 04:28 PM

246. Yup. That's what this whole coup was about. nt

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 10:37 AM

234. When you see a PNAC'er passing out cookies...

and McCain standing in solidarity with neo nazi leaders, one has to know things won't end well in Ukraine.

Great post, Catherina. You have been missed.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #234)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:35 AM

240. Nailed It! What's that expression? "One Picture is worth a Thousand Words?"

Here we have two pictures confirming the "influence."

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 11:00 AM

235. kick

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