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Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:32 PM

 

How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations


By Glenn Greenwald

One of the many pressing stories that remains to be told from the Snowden archive is how western intelligence agencies are attempting to manipulate and control online discourse with extreme tactics of deception and reputation-destruction. It’s time to tell a chunk of that story, complete with the relevant documents.

...

Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable. To see how extremist these programs are, just consider the tactics they boast of using to achieve those ends: “false flag operations” (posting material to the internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting “negative information” on various forums. Here is one illustrative list of tactics from the latest GCHQ document we’re publishing today:

...

But these GCHQ documents are the first to prove that a major western government is using some of the most controversial techniques to disseminate deception online and harm the reputations of targets. Under the tactics they use, the state is deliberately spreading lies on the internet about whichever individuals it targets, including the use of what GCHQ itself calls “false flag operations” and emails to people’s families and friends. Who would possibly trust a government to exercise these powers at all, let alone do so in secret, with virtually no oversight, and outside of any cognizable legal framework?

Then there is the use of psychology and other social sciences to not only understand, but shape and control, how online activism and discourse unfolds. Today’s newly published document touts the work of GCHQ’s “Human Science Operations Cell”, devoted to “online human intelligence” and “strategic influence and disruption”:

...

Under the title “Online Covert Action”, the document details a variety of means to engage in “influence and info ops” as well as “disruption and computer net attack”, while dissecting how human beings can be manipulated using “leaders”, “trust, “obedience” and “compliance”:

...

Whatever else is true, no government should be able to engage in these tactics: what justification is there for having government agencies target people – who have been charged with no crime – for reputation-destruction, infiltrate online political communities, and develop techniques for manipulating online discourse? But to allow those actions with no public knowledge or accountability is particularly unjustifiable.


https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

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Reply How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations (Original post)
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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:29 AM

1. k&r thanks for posting. nm

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:32 AM

2. That of course could never ever happen here.

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:12 AM

19. nope

that would be contrary to sense!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:38 AM

30. Well there was this from Salon

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Response to Autumn (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:22 PM

58. This really has me thinking...are there covert agents here?

 

...and which DU poster is a covert agent or paid-to-post operative?

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #58)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:31 PM

64. non-citizens may have some advantage here

 

much as they try to swap domestic intel jobs between allies,
I would not be surprised if some neighbors to the north were picking up a few Loons involving themselves here.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #58)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:33 PM

66. I doubt one could ever know. If a republican were in office it

would be easy to tell. The differences in policies between Liberals and republicans stand out like a beacon. But if there were any of the covert agent or paid-to-post operatives posting here, they are a real waste of time and money, cause they can't change anyone's mind. People here on DU are very aware of political moves, policies and politicians.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #58)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:50 AM

166. I'd look for someone who is extremely well organized in his/her posts and never says

a critical or "underground" type of thing about our President.

Perhaps someone who posits him- or herself as absolutely and by far more sensible than anyone else on DU.

I can think of at least one person who fits that profile very well. This one combines infiltration and propaganda functions. But what do I know. I'm just guessing.

One thing is certain, a government infiltrator would never agree to criticize the President. would attempt to place him- herself in a psychological position of leader and never express an original idea. I can think of one who fits perfectly.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #166)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:33 AM

171. Holy fucking shit!!11!

 

You've caught them! This is really an EXPLOSIVE revelation!

You've discovered a paid govt operative on the DU!

This is definitely something skinner and the admins should know about.

I'd shoot them an email ASAP.

Well done!

Well. Fucking. Done.


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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #171)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:51 AM

172. Glad you can appreciate.

Someone who toes an ideological line is not to be trusted. It is normal to have a few opinions that diverge from those of the authorities.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:53 PM

75. That is 100% creepy right there.

 

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #75)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:59 PM

79. They're here!

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #79)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:18 PM

104. I wonder if the Administration pays the same if

all one does is keep posting the same inane graphic in various threads.

Any insight on that?

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #104)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:20 PM

105. They pay handsomely

 





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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #104)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 05:33 PM

278. Pay is based on the number of smilies used [n/t]

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #79)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:24 PM

225. Psst...Glenn's book is out on Mar. 25th. Now he has a reason for all the mean Amazon reviews. nt

 

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Response to Autumn (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:15 PM

103. Here are a couple of very interesting paras from that Salon story:

Cass Sunstein has long been one of Barack Obama’s closest confidants. Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obama’s head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for “overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs.” In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-”independent” advocates to “cognitively infiltrate” online groups and websites — as well as other activist groups — which advocate views that Sunstein deems “false conspiracy theories” about the Government. This would be designed to increase citizens’ faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists. The paper’s abstract can be read, and the full paper downloaded, here.

Sunstein advocates that the Government’s stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into “chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups.” He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called “independent” credible voices to bolster the Government’s messaging (on the ground that those who don’t believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government). This program would target those advocating false “conspiracy theories,” which they define to mean: “an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role.” Sunstein’s 2008 paper was flagged by this blogger, and then amplified in an excellent report by Raw Story‘s Daniel Tencer.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #103)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:15 PM

106. very interesting

 

presidency defining.
2014/2016 poison.

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Response to reddread (Reply #106)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:13 PM

116. Indeed. (nt)

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #103)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 11:07 AM

292. Sunstein's the guy who recc'd we forgive Bush war crimes.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:39 AM

3. It's about time this piece of the horror story begins to get some exposure.

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:14 AM - Edit history (2)

What is happening in messaging from our own government is unconscionable, malignant, and creepy as hell.

We've experienced massive betrayals by our government in recent years, but these sorts of revelations....mass spying; smear and disinformation; constant, orchestrated campaigns of manipulation aimed at citizens...

The relationship of the people to the US government has been fundamentally changed, and in a profound way. Perhaps we have not lived in a free country for some time now, but they have destroyed any remaining illusion of life in this country most of us were taught to believe was our own.

These are the tactics of a totalitarian state acting viciously against the interests of its own people, not something any of us should have to associate with the United States of America.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:28 AM

16. +1, well said.

 

It's completely unconscionable, and I find it sickening.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:10 AM

21. Nice!

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:17 AM

42. But we must be grateful, at least, that we have a Dem

president, because it would be much, much worse if a Repuke was president.

Remember, always be grateful for the crumbs...

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:44 PM

92. Woo, you said the same thiong as Greenwald, but...

...you said it so much better:
The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.

[font size=3]It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur.[/font] Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013


Thank You.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #92)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:44 AM

198. No, thank *you.*

That means a lot, coming from you.

Finally, finally, this totalitarian garbage is getting some press. Let's hope it is just the beginning...

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #92)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:42 PM

229. This is just what I see here when certain subjects come up

It makes it impossible to have the discussion because the thread gets sent off course by the same group of people.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:21 PM

107. this response is wrong.

 

Everything that Obama and Congress and the courts and the police and the military do is to better and lift up the people of the US. I think the problem is you may not be clapping hard enough for fascism.

Also asking for extra porridge is a big no-no. Banks and the 1% come first here in this country

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Response to frwrfpos (Reply #107)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:18 AM

170. If you haven't read Greg Palast's Vulture's Picnic, you should.

It exposes the corruption in both parties and the close links between the big corporations and the government.

There are differences between the Republicans and Democrats. Big ones. I prefer the Democrats, but there is disgusting corruption in both parties' leadership. And oddly enough, the same banks and corporations are involved in the corruption.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:07 AM

169. True. Combine surveillance, record-keeping on every individual's whereabouts and activities

and propaganda and you have dictatorship of the worst kind, by the oligarchy in our case.

There is a book on the German experience during WWII, They Thought They Were Free.
Here is an excerpt:

“What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

“This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

“You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ‘expected to’ participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time.”

“Those,” I said, “are the words of my friend the baker. ‘One had no time to think. There was so much going on.’”

https://disinfo.com/2013/10/excerpt-thought-free-germans-1933-45-milton-mayer/

I know I will get flak for comparing our current surveillance and propaganda state to NAZI Germany. We don't have concentration camps. But there was far more to the NAZI state than concentration camps. Far more. I lived in Germany and Austria. When talking about the NAZI period, people would tell me that after all, Hitler did increase the employment rate. After the terrible inflation and then wide unemployment that followed WWI in Germany, the German people felt they were regaining national pride under Hitler. They were wrong. It is easy to be wrong, very wrong in a surveillance state with an effective propaganda arm.

And this information released so recently makes me feel more certain that I am correct in comparing our developing, still in the early stages, surveillance and propaganda state to NAZI Germany in the 1930s. In fact, a major Austrian, the Creditanstalt bank failed in 1931.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creditanstalt

The parallels are frightening.

We are not living in NAZI Germany -- yet, but we need to change our course if we want to avoid it.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #169)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:38 PM

250. We don't have concentration camps

 

but we have 5% of the world's population but 25% of the world's population of prisoners. And honestly, what do we call secret prisons?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #250)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:47 PM

254. You make a good point.

Guantanamo -- practice for the future secret incarceration of Americans without trial and with secret evidence?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #254)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 06:57 PM

281. Maybe they'll just start treating us like email--

"re-routing" us to Poland or Bagram as they purportedly move us from one domestic prison to another…

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:39 AM

4. K&R'd!

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:07 AM - Edit history (1)

and bookmarked.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:40 AM

5. They really are not that hard to spot. And of course, Anonymous confirmed that Glenn Greenwald

himself was a target of such a 'campaign'. It was classic proof of what many had already suspected, so there really IS no denying it.

We see the results of that 'security contract' right here on DU regarding Greenwald, almost to the word of what they were 'proposing' in their bid for a 'contract'. This SHOULD be illegal, but of course we have to be an actual Democracy in order for that to happen. There was a proposal from the few Dems left in Congress for an investigation in those tactics exposed by Anonymous, but so far, nothing has come of it.

Most people recognize the talking points, the smear campaigns against anyone who dares to oppose policies that are harmful to the people, but beneficial to the Corporations and Big Banks.

Wikileaks also release documents before the smear campaign against Assange, from a CIA memo planning how to 'discredit him'.

In the end it is up to the people. And the exposure of the tactics on a regular basis helps to counter their smear campaigns. I guess they are getting nervous and pretty desperate due to their failure to totally control information. But don't underestimate them, from the lates leaked Wikileaks Docs on the TPP they fully intend to control the Internet the same way they have controlled the Corporate Media.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:34 AM

9. "This SHOULD be illegal, but of course we have to be an actual Democracy..."



This SHOULD be illegal, but of course we have to be an actual Democracy in order for that to happen.


This is not the country I was taught I lived in.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:00 AM

13. Things are moving fast. The privatization of everything is nearly complete.

They needed the 'left' to put the final nails in the coffin of what was once a Democratic society. And it appears they have succeeded, or have they? It would APPEAR that way from the comments we are now seeing supporting what no DEMOCRAT would ever have have supported just a few short year ago.

Certainly they panicked when OWS spread like wildfire across the country, exposing the deep opposition they probably thought they had suppressed to the change from Democracy to Corporate State. And in other parts of the world, Europe eg, where they installed Corporate candidates to implement their 'Austerity programs' stealing the sovereignty of once first World Nations, like Spain and Ireland, now under the thumb of the IMF and the World Bank.

The uprisings in France, Spain, the Indignados, Greece, brave but to no avail as their country was sold from underneath them to private 'investors'.

And here, where it is progressing as planned after they think they successfully crushed the opposition to their fascist policies.

And now, on to the Ukraine, where the IMF and the World Bank have quickly moved in to impose on that country, their draconian policies of Austerity after ousting their democratically elected government. We CANNOT HAVE ANY opposition to the final takeover of the world's resources.

I wonder why any democrat would support these coups, now happening at record speed in various parts of the world.

By next week, the Ukraine will most likely be enslaved to the World Bank and the IMF with a puppet government installed to make sure there are no more 'glitches' in the plans to control that country.

It's comforting in some ways to watch the consistency of it all play out. Devastating in terms of what it means for the future of the world's 'democracies' now beholden to Wall St. and its unauthorized World Bank and IMF.

They were clever, even we were fooled for a while, getting Dems on board after locking up Republican support for their egregious policies.

But nothing this destructive to so many people can last. And I think they know that, which is why to them, the people, not 'terrorists' are the enemy. Which is why they are spying on EVERYONE. They are paranoid, and they should be. History is not kind to such greedy, power hungry criminals.

Sorry Ukraine to see your country in the grip of the IMF now, and the World Bank. But that is what happens when you choose to remain blind to what is really going on.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:14 AM

35. funny how you have zero criticism of the Ukrainian despot who ordered snipers to murder

 

protestors and stole billions of dollars from the people of Ukraine

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:19 PM

55. You mean the protesters that are largely made up of neo-nazis and fascists?

 

yeah those.

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Response to qwertyq (Reply #55)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:21 PM

56. if an army sniper suspects someone is a fascist, then it's okay to shoot them in the city street?

 

welcome to DU.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #56)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 07:03 PM

282. No, of course not.

But is someone is a suspected Taliban or AQ operative, it IS OK to blow them up in their home with a drone.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #282)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 07:09 PM

283. inside the US, absolutely not nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #283)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 07:14 PM

284. True, we moslty just let the cops eliminate potential problems with their sidearms.

Once in a while they screw up & shoot a white person, though. But hey, that's just collateral damage.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:21 PM

57. a symptom , not the disease ...

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:57 PM

87. Funny you ignored everything and stuck to the talking point that is supposed to justify

the toppling of a democratically elected government rather than use the democratic process to do so.

Bush lied this country into a deadly, brutal war, his criminal policies harmed this country for decades and cost the lives of untold numbers of human beings. Not to mention the financial cost, the profiteering, the corruption. Yet, not one person suggested a coup d'etat rather than using the democratic process.

Why? That should be easy to answer for anyone who understands the difference between a civilized society and a violent, destabilized society where mob rule reigns. Because intelligent people are able to look beyond the immediate problems, bad as they may be, and understand that they will be far, far worse if democracy itself also becomes a victim of the anger, no matter how justified it may be.

It's interesting too that while you support this for other nations, you trashed a peaceful movement here USING the Democratic process to register the people's disagreement with policies and corruption and damaging policies.

I can only imagine your outrage if here, like the Ukraine which you support, protesters had emulated the Ukraine protesters and driven Bush's government from power eg. Would you have been in any way supportive of driving Bush out of office eg, in the same way? No, because you live here. I don't need to live in the Ukraine to know that what has just happened there will have dire consequences for them for decades to come.

An election would have taken care of their issues, IF the majority of the people actually agreed with the protesters. That we will never know.

Now as many of us expected, although I thought they might wait awhile, the IMF and the The World Bank have already moved in. The Ukraine can look forward to the same future as Greece, huge unemployment, the sale of their precious assets to 'pay their debts to the IMF'. Need I go on, every Progressive Democrat KNOWS what being under the thumb of the IMF means to a nation.

But they made their choice, many will come to regret it, after it is too late. Coups don't occur without consequences, most often not the kind expected in the heat of the moment.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #87)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:04 PM

88. your crocodile tears for a despot who ordered the murder of political protestors

 

is duly noted.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #88)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:00 AM

153. Your support for coup d'etats in democracies, is also noted. Btw, that 'duly noted' thing,

brings back old memories. Interesting ...

I get it! Violent protests where police officers are attacked physically in the Ukraine by Western Backed 'protesters' is just great for you.

Peaceful protests using the Democratic Process by movements like OWS are to be condemned.

I'm confused, because airc, you were just outraged by reports of a few broken windows, done by groups who were not part of OWS, but which you and the Faux contingency tried to attach to OWS, were just AWFUL!! And I can only imagine your horror if the OWS protesters had attacked the police!!

Lol, I love these conversations, so much is revealed.



Here's the deal, inconsistencies like this result in a huge lack of credibility.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #153)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:02 AM

160. How many dead protestors in the US vs Ukraine?

 

This is a sad reminder that some on the left cheered for the tanks in Hungary.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #160)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:29 AM

162. You aren't very fond of the 'left' are you?

How many injured cops in the US vs Ukraine?

You were just horrified by a few broken windows, such violence from OWS who didn't have a 'goal', lol!

There were two Iraq Veterans who nearly lost their lives after being beaten nearly to death and shot at by our 'civilian' police here. That was fine by many on the Right, those 'lefties' deserved it, didn't they?

Not a word of condemnation from you for all the brutality suffered by those protesters who were unarmed, peaceful and exercising a right they THOUGHT they had.

Like I said, consistency is everything, if you want any kind of credibility.

And what does Budapest have to do with anyone here? Most here were not even alive at the time, so what's your point?

Oh I get it, that typical attack on the left, the old 'commie' thing we hear so much from limbaugh and faux and it's so old even the ditto heads are bored with it by now. Shame, although no surprise, to see that here.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #162)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:37 AM

163. Not an attack on the left, just those who embrace authoritarianism

 

when it's their team (Putin, Castro, Maduro, Yanukovych) doing the oppressing.

Yanukovych ordered the murder if his political opponents and stole billions of dollars from his own people. He was swept out because he tried to make himself a dictator. Obviously, since he's Putin's lap dog, you support him.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #163)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:58 AM

167. Like I said, not very fond of the Left, and you provide more of the same old 'commie'

diatribe from Limbaugh just to prove me right. We loved Saddam too, or did you forget? And Osama Bin Laden. Well, according to Limbaugh, the main propagandist.

Nothing ever though to say about the Right I've noticed. Have you ever attacked the Right the way you attack the Left? I don't recall?

Me, I despise Right Winger stupidity like Limbaugh and his ridiculous Ditto Heads imitating his 'commie' attacks, so old, so irrelevant in today's world, still living in the past, trying to dig up ANYTHING to attack the Left with.

Carry on, I'm rather enjoying this. It's so familiar, although not so much here on DU.

I'm sure everyone here, democrats, lefties, will remember the old 'you love Saddam' routine from the Faux contingency. The ditto heads loved it.

Of course the propagandists knew it was lie, they knew that the Left was opposed to the lies being told that would lead us into war, but that is their tactic, deliberately misinterpret the motives, and then feed the propaganda to the morons who lap it up, thinking it makes them look intelligent. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

I used to have so much fun with them. It was probably cruel of me. Can't say I'm sorry, though. They deserved it.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #167)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:49 PM

255. Sabrina

 

You absolutely rock.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #87)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:25 PM

118. When our nation's leaders murder, it doesn't seem so bad.

 

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:59 AM

173. Have you read Vultures' Picnic by Greg Palast. It lays out some of the interesting details

that support the general factual concepts you just laid forth. I think you might have fun with it. It is written in a roman noir or Humphrey Bogart style.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:21 AM

22. I was going to quote the same. It's certainly quote worthy.

No, it is not the same country. The nation has been changed, fundamentally. IMHO, that is why they LIHOP. Because they wanted to change the nation, to give corporations more hand (Seinfeld reference).

"They" really do not want to relinquish their new found power. They would have us believe that they love the nation so much that they must change it, fundamentally, until it is no longer the same nation. That's asking us to swallow a lot of bull.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:08 AM

33. +1

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:22 AM

23. +1 a whole bunch!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:13 AM

34. then name names. if you have identified government agents posting at DU

 

it's your duty to identify them so that they don't violate other people's rights

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:15 PM

54. If the poster were to name name's.....

 

and say for example, they named yours, wouldn't you then have recourse for getting their posts hidden and having them possibly banned? Just wondering as you often ask this same question, especially to long term DU'ers that post interesting content.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #54)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:29 PM

62. if they named my name, I'd have a good chuckle at their stupidity nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:07 AM

174. Then don't invite naming names.

Because when someone invites another DUer to do something (like naming names) when the first DUer knows that will get the one who names names in trouble, it's called inciting a DUer to doing something stupid. It is not consistent with posting on an open discussion board. It is consistent with trying to shut off the exchange of ideas rather than promote it.

Please.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #174)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:57 PM

259. As much as it bothers me to say it

 

There is a certain contingent that is actively trying to get people to mess up so that they will get their posts hidden or get banned. You have to be extremely careful when engaging with those particular posters because they will hit you with both barrels in an effort to make you upset.

And no, it isn't consistent with just posting - it is exactly attempting to disruption. I don't know if it is a coordinated thing, I just know it is annoying as hell to try to have a conversation with all of that chatter introduced.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #259)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:09 PM

261. I've seen it.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #261)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 04:20 PM

287. Not the first time, Skinner admitted to this during the transition from DU2 to DU3

It was ugly then, just as it is ugly now...

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Response to go west young man (Reply #54)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:24 PM

109. Go straight to the admins ... tell them who's on your "list".

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:28 PM

61. "Call outs" used to be against the rules on DU

The TOS don't specifically say that anymore, but I doubt it's still a good idea. If you've been here for any period of time you should know this. Or maybe you do.

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Response to BuelahWitch (Reply #61)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:30 PM

63. so observing DU rules is secondary to resisting efforts by the security state to spy on us? nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #63)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:32 PM

65. This website is privately owned

And as such we abide by their rules if we want to stay here. But then, you probably know that too.

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Response to BuelahWitch (Reply #65)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:55 PM

76. So you'd rather "stay here" than fight the security state deploying govt agents to post on DU?

 

Talk about fighting for what you believe in!

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:34 PM

67. They don't need government agents on the internet. All they need are willing participants

to feed the propaganda to, as they were proposing with Greenwald eg, as many forums as possible counting on some picking it up for FREE, they don't even have to pay anyone, and repeating the smears for them.

How you recognize that a smear campaign is going on, is easy, always has been. People who are genuine use their own words, they don't use talking points. We learned to recognize the talking points. And of course after reading the proposed smear campaign contract on Greenwald it explained why we were suddenly seeing attacks on him as a person. I am guessing that most who join in are not being paid, just not terribly liberal in their views and more than willing to have phrases and words to use to attack Liberals with. It's not that hard, really.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #67)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:36 PM

69. Greenwald's personality is really besides the point.

 

what matters is getting reform legislation passed

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #69)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:44 PM

72. Of course, that is the reason why we need journalists like Greenwald and

Jeremy Scahill, Matt Taibi, Greg Palast and of course why we need Whistle Blowers, so that the people are informed of what their government is doing in their name and when there is wrongdoing and it is exposed, it should lead to reform legislation being passed, NOT to the punishment of Whistle Blowers or to smear campaigns against journalists. But that is where we are now, so it's imperative to support those willing to risk being targeted for telling the truth.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #67)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:51 PM

94. some are agents, some are that agents "personas"

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8354

they have programs that can handle up to 100 personas easily...now wether the agent can handle the program is different story

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:02 AM

41. The thing about RWers is that they are never conscious enough to realize how transparent

and obvious they are to the left.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #41)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:17 PM

46. +1 & LOL.

 

I swear you can hear them squirming. Suddenly the beltway is a little tight, a little less than comfortable for them than it was before.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:30 PM

110. So you maintain a "list", right?

Those who are oh so easy to spot?

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #110)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:27 PM

134. Who needs any list? I go by the talking points, not the messengers.

Iow, it is easy to see the talking points, surely you too can recognize them when you see them? Btw, why you think anyone would 'keep a list'? Liberals generally deal with smears and lies DIRECTLY when they encounter them. I know this makes it hard for them to spread the lies, but then that's OUR job, isn't it, as Liberals, to make sure the TRUTH and the FACTS get through all the propaganda.

At least that is what we did during the Bush era and eventually it did get through, because we refused to allow lies about Liberal Journalists and good Democrats to stand without challenge.

And by 2008, all the propaganda they tried to push with their talking points and smear campaigns, against Liberal Journalists, like Glenn Greenwald eg, and Liberal Dems could not get them reelected.

THAT is why it is important to recognize the 'campaigns against those who tell the truth'. I could not care LESS about the individuals, don't know them, don't care who they are, but if talking points and smears are in front of me, I will do what I always did. What we all always did.

I mean be honest, when you see confirmation of a an actual Corporate Contract being bidden on by a Security Contractor on a BLOGGER, and you get to read the tactics in their own words, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that the contract is in place regarding Glenn Greenwald, does it? Which is why it has failed. We KNOW where all the attacks on him are coming from. Thanks to Anonymous for that one.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #134)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:38 PM

145. Upton Sinclair 1935

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

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Response to bobduca (Reply #145)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:48 PM

147. Lol, I like that quote ...

But I would add, 'unless he is a person of integrity and honor, like Snowden eg and Ellsberg and Drake, but those are rare people.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:26 PM

119. B,but he's a NARCISSIST!!!!!! nt

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:49 AM

6. And they also train people to do it for them

Like this...

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Response to zeemike (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:47 AM

11. Busted, but no repercussions; like O'keefe and the Acorn fiasco...

When the dishonesty was exposed, not even the Congressional Democrats who had been stampeded insisted on prosecuting O'keefe or re-funding Acorn. Too embarrassed, perhaps.

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Response to dougolat (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:29 AM

25. Oh, yeah. It was highly effective.

That's why it continues today.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:52 PM

95. Effective.... only because the Democratic Party Leadership...

...runs and hides from these kinds of attacks.
They ran away from ACORN, Shirley Sherrod, and Van Jones so fast they left a blur....
because of accusations by Brietbart and the Tea Party.

Odd that they would circle the wagons to protect a Know LIAR, Republican, and International Laughing stock like Clapper (NSA Liar),
when they couldn't run away and hide fast enough when Acorn or Van Jones were attacked.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #95)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:08 PM

96. Exactly.

These "dirty tricks" illustrate just how dysfunctional the nation has become. I could have cried for Shirley Sherrod. And ACORN was providing a vital service. They are validating the woo. Tell me they didn't allow 911 when they could have stopped it anytime along the line.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #95)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:13 AM

175. Astute post. Really interesting. Thanks.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:17 AM

7. Well there are a few obvious ones

on this site regularly and I cannot understand why the moderators allow it. Oh yes, they got rid of moderators.....

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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:13 AM

20. freedom of the press is a benefit conferred to those who own a press

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Response to bobduca (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:17 AM

176. That's what is setting off the NSA's efforts to do surveillance and propagandize.

Suddenly, with the internet we all have our own personal presses. That is way beyond the free press that the American political establishment wants. In its view, too much free press is not a good thing. Ha! Too late. The internet is here.

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Response to Tumbulu (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:15 AM

37. If it's so obvious, then you should have no trouble outing these government agents nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:22 AM

38. only a matter of time

 

its just data, collected somewhere, waiting.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #37)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:06 PM

260. It is really not a good idea

 

to encourage people to break the TOS.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:33 AM

8. well, well, well. nt

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:39 AM

10. thank you again, Edward Snowden. nt

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:55 AM

12. keep this pinned to the top of page 1

 

kick.
kick.
kick.
How many times have I said this is gonna come out?
kick.
ground zero battleground for truth and justice, the soul of a country besieged.

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Response to reddread (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:21 AM

14. It is coming out, but watch out for the 'explainers' who should be along anytime now.

And don't forget, Greenwald and Snowden are 'traitors', according to the smear campaign.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:26 AM

15. We see the results of their work here every day, and it's quite obvious.

 

My personal favorite was the "he's got boxes in his garage/had a stripper girlfriend/had a ballerina girlfriend and left her all alone" lines that were spewed out, rapid fire, when they were desperately, stupidly, fumbling all over each other like Keystone Cops to discredit Snowden early on.

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Response to Marr (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:56 AM

18. put the swooners on Ignore

they are hypocrites who will come to their senses in 2017

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:33 AM

17. better read the comments section. nt

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Response to grasswire (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:23 AM

26. +1000000000

Wow.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:25 PM

60. Yes...interesting read and some nice refresher links from commenters...

K&R the Article

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:28 AM

24. K&R. Of Course we would "never" have them here...

 

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:29 AM

28. Yeah, totally ridiculous

anyone who claims that has got to have another agenda and is only trying to marginalize those who do not agree with them, in fact they probably date strippers and keep boxes in their garage, in other words, a total weirdo, not to be trusted, probably a closet teapublicanjihadist who hates women.



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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:26 AM

27. DDDD – Deny, Disrupt, Degrade, Deceive

Dude.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:57 PM

100. someone on the comments section..

....added the words "Depose" and then "Decapitate"

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Response to Octafish (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:08 PM

102. No one's going to get the "Dude" anymore.

 

Dude.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:32 AM

29. Expert professional opinions always have the best facts to guide us

so we don't go astray.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:45 AM

31. K&R

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:06 AM

32. The more you go through it, the uglier it is. nt

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:15 AM

36. K&R

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:34 AM

39. But,but,but....Greenwald and Snowden are jerks, therefoe this doesn't matter

 

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Response to Armstead (Reply #39)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:40 AM

40. So you think groups like Anonymous should be free to attack the Internet whenever they wish.

 

Without fear of reprisal because...hey, they say they're the good guys! As for any of the rest, there is no evidence this type of infiltration is being used on any other than legitimate targets other than the amorphous claims in the article.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #40)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:22 AM

43. Who is a legitmate target of such tactics?

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Response to rusty fender (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:39 AM

44. That is an excellent question. About time someone asked it.

 

Funny how the 'get scared quick' articles like this don't even address it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #40)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:00 PM

49. No, nor do I think the giovernment should be able to either

 

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Response to randome (Reply #40)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:45 PM

93. according to the original leaks

the dod thinks it is acceptable to use on reporters

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8354

The plan also involved creating "two fake insider personas", one at VR and another at the unrelated Change To Win organization, which had employed a coalition of union groups to create a non-profit campaign, some months after VR's, called U.S. Chamber Watch. The plan presented by Team Themis, as the three security firms called themselves, would then use one of the "fake personas" as "leverage to discredit the other while confirming the legitimacy of the second" in hopes of publicizing the fraudulent appearance of some sort of "conspiracy" between the various progressive organizations in order to somehow discredit them.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:11 PM

45. up up and away

 

a gentle kick for someone's spoiled fun

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:33 PM

47. Kick. /nt

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:38 PM

48. Not quite seeing where the "illegal" part is in all of this...

unethical and questionable, yes....

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:01 PM

50. Isn't that bad enough?

 

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:08 PM

53. So are we ato assume that the gov't the the big bad dog in this

 

and that Greewald, Koch, Fox, Beck, and any other hack doesn't hire a fleet of people to do the same type of character defamation? The outrage seems quite stupid in this case without invoking the bigger picture.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:58 PM

150. typical false equivalence

You seriously are accusing Greenwald of using these tactics of hiring contractors to defame his critics?

DERP WHAT A DRAMATIC TURNABOUT! I UNDERESTIMATED HIS NEFARIOUS GENIUS!!!!

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Response to bobduca (Reply #150)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:22 AM

194. of course I'm stating the possibility exists....did you not read it properly?

 

are you without any shadow of a doubt, sure Greenwald doesn't do that?

The derp is all in your court, you can't make up shit and pretend that it's a bigger truth than my speculation. Good god, where did you crawl out from?

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #53)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:03 AM

178. Koch, Fox and Beck maybe. But Greenwald? You way overestimate or underestimate him.

Depending on your viewpoint. There is no way Greenwald could hire people to do character defamation. Takes a lot of money. He isn't poor, I would assume. But that rich? No way.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #178)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:39 AM

197. THERE IS ALWAYS people out there willing to volunteer for their precious cause

 

I don't think there is any reason to believe that the character assasinations doesn't occur from every side of every perspective of every political hot button.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #197)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:56 AM

201. Yes Greenwald has hired HBGary to infiltrate forums and post on his behalf



Poor General Clapper! under constant attack from mean old Glennie Greenwald and his cyber minions that he has clearly hired.

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #48)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:01 AM

177. Depending on how it is done and for what purpose, it could be fraud, defamation (in the case

of making statements that destroy reputations unfairly which is apparently part of the plan) or libel. It could conceivably be determined to be a violation of the right of freedom of association guaranteed in the First Amendment. Not all of this sort of thing could violate the freedom of association, but if taken to an extreme, it could.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:03 PM

51. Gee, I wonder why they were keeping that secret? Thank you, Edward Snowden.

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:04 PM

52. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:24 PM

59. HUGE K & R !!!

 


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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:35 PM

68. Project much, Glennie Glenn? We know that your "disciples" dominate the web.



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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #68)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:41 PM

71. Too funny. Discredit everyone who criticizes Greenwald.

See upthread.



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Response to ProSense (Reply #71)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:58 PM

78. Are you saying these documents are fake, and the government isn't actually doing this? /nt

 

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Response to Marr (Reply #78)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:12 PM

80. No,

"Are you saying these documents are fake, and the government isn't actually doing this? "

...I'm saying it's typical Greenwald to take cyber warfare information and turn it into a silly charge that attempts to discredit criticism of anyone who doesn't buy his bullshit.

It's not my interpretation. Look up thread. I've seen this piece posted elsewhere, and the reaction by some is very similar.

If I call you a "hack" and a "sock puppet," does that mean I'm right and you're simply a tool?

When he attacks MSNBC and Rachel Maddow, who is he working for?



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Response to ProSense (Reply #80)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:13 PM

81. To borrow a phrase...

 

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Response to Marr (Reply #81)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:24 PM

83. LOL!

You know what keeps me laughing?

The desperation of the Greenwald hi-fivers is something to behold.





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Response to ProSense (Reply #83)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:49 AM

190. Do you think that any of the people posting on DU get paid to do it?

Why wouldn't they admit it if they were?

Do you think that someone paid to post on DU, say by the government or someone in the Obama campaign or some similar group would feel ashamed or embarrassed by what he/she was doing?

Or do you think they would be proud to be doing it and let other DUers know about what they were doing?

Do you think that it might be very easy for regulars on DU to figure out who might be paid to post here?

Don't you think that people who always perfectly take the side of the government might be suspected by other DUers of being paid shills?

What is your opinion on the substance of the OP?

As I wrote below, I think one indication that someone might be paid to take a particular position would be that the person always followed a particular party line.

I ask that because I have been paid to write during my write -- grant requests and other things -- so I know what it is like to write in a voice and for a purpose that is not personal to you.

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Response to Marr (Reply #78)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:07 PM

140. Indeed. I am saying that the U.S. government (including the NSA) isn't actually doing this.

Let's see if you have any clue at all about what you're talking about.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #140)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:20 PM

143. So... Greenwald just made those documents up?

 

Or is this the part where you tell me GCHQ is in Britain, so it doesn't matter?

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Response to Marr (Reply #143)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:18 AM

154. You actualy will *acknowledge* a fact?

I'm flabbergasted!

Maybe it was my pointing it out, but your tiny inkling of understanding that the United States had nothing to do with this at all makes me feel almost hopeful that you may be able to speak rationally on things.

Yes, indeed. Greenwald's smarmy agitprop is actually partially correct: governments can cause people harm! In fact, as people in the Ukraine, Syria, Venezuela, and Uganda can attest, it usually goes further than to scare a bunch of script-kiddie "hacktivists" away from a site they set up to coordinate their wire-fraud and other assorted computer-related felonies. Personally, I would prefer for most of them to be caught and thrown in jail for their crimes, but governments can be lenient as well. And Great Britain likely felt the need to only be proportional to the damage "Anonymous" inflicted.

No, the interesting thing to note, Marr, is what's not being done. Greenwald clearly has a chubby for harming the U.S. But of late, he's released basically nothing the NSA was responsible for. Last week, it was that the Australians had intercepted some communication between the Indonesians and a U.S. Law Firm. This week, it's the British engaged in some mostly harmless "turnabout is fair play" on the DDOSing Anonymous script kiddies. If there were some amazing anti-American bombshell beyond the known-since-2005 pin register stuff, he would have released it by now. But he hasn't. So one has to conclude that he doesn't have anything more.

Oh, I'm sure there will be ever more desperate releases. Maybe some breathless expose that Brazil's ABIN uncovered (they openly spy on bikini clad girls walking on their beaches!!11!!1!). But all the real stuff has played out. So all they have is foreign stuff which only serves to convince the haters - who can't read, and will blame the NSA and U.S.

I expect to make his millions of dollars, Greenwald will be releasing this kind of stuff for some time.

Well, all except anything that makes the FSB look bad (no matter how truly awful it is). Greenwald and Snowden are anti-American. Not anti-Russian. And they both know who Snowden's real master is now.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #154)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:48 AM

158. Look, if this kind of diversionary dissembling is all you're going to offer...

 

...just let me know now and I won't waste any more time with you.

The GCHQ and the NSA have a long, well-known history of working together closely. Several big stories came out just last year on precisely that topic. The documents in question were specifically presented to the NSA by the GCHQ.

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #154)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:09 AM

179. The problem with taking any side for or against Anonymous is that the moniker

Anonymous can be anyone with any intention, any point of view. There isn't just one anonymous or even one anonymous group. I believe I recall an instance in which a person claiming to be anonymous posted information about a rape which turned out to be true. That particular anonymous helped to bring an injustice to light. That was good. When people use the name anonymous to hide crimes, that is bad. So it is rather absurd to talk about attacking, condemning or condoning anonymous. It depends on what that particular anonymous is doing.

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #154)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:58 AM

209. And this is a quite excellent post that truly explains Greenwald. This is merely a ramp up to the

 

Snowden book he will release...a book already scooped by Luke Harding's Snowden book.

Greenwald's book is due out on March 25th....best to inoculate oneself from the criticism beforehand.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #71)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:40 PM

86. I keep wondering when the world will figure out that GG is Alex Jones with a better hair stylist.



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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #86)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:52 PM

149. smear by association :fail

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Response to bobduca (Reply #149)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:33 AM

196. Right back atcha, big boy.




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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #196)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:57 AM

202. I made no such attempt to associate Greenwald with a screaming picture of Alex Jones. You did that.

so right back at you.

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Response to bobduca (Reply #202)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:53 PM

230. Fuck Glenn Greenwald & Alex Jones, brothers from another Mother.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #230)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:54 PM

231. repeat the lie, repeat the lie, repeat the lie!

Also click your jackboot heels while you do it.

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Response to bobduca (Reply #231)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:02 PM

236. Ooohhh. Looks like a touched a nerve with one or both of your heroes?




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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #236)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:11 PM

240. Here's a clue.

Why would I consider it a smear to associate Greenwald who is a journalist with a crypto-fascist money grubbing conspiracy peddler?
Naturally because Alex Jones and Greenwald are my heroes? That's the conclusion a smear merchant would make.

You: "Hey dawg, I heard you like smears by association so I added another smear by association to your smear-by-association-call-out subthread."

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Response to bobduca (Reply #240)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:37 PM

249. !!!





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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #86)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:25 PM

244. Lol, right on cue. Am I psychic or what? I love it when I make predictions and they arrive, right

on cue.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #244)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:34 PM

246. Quick! Tell us how many US households watch the Kremlin sponsored Russia Today?

I'm elated that you finally made a statement that, shall we say, was "correct"?


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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #246)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:39 PM

251. So what do you think of the US Government spying on every single American?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #251)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:52 PM

257. I thought not! Don't ever change sabrina. You are nothing, if not 100% consistent.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #257)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:12 PM

262. I haven't changed. Remember when Dems were OUTRAGED over Bush spying on the American people??

This Democrat is STILL outraged over the Government spying on the American people. How about you? You haven't said.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #262)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:37 PM

263. Until you can back this up, I'll refrain from taking your interrogation seriously.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #263)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:49 PM

264. Spying on the American People is a crime. Which is why Dems were so outraged

when Bush was found to be breaking the law. We were even more outraged, remember. when Congress, rather than prosecuting the criminals, changed the law to protect them.

You needn't worry about me changing, I am consistent on expecting our government to take their oaths of office seriously and not to violate them regarding 'defending and protecting the Constitution of the US'.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #264)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:58 PM

265. And "consistently" wrong!




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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #265)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:07 PM

266. Then you agree NOW with the Government spying on the American people.

Did you agree with it when Bush as caught doing it? I didn't and I don't now, which I already said and which you call 'wrong'. So thanks for finally answering.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #266)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:33 PM

267. If I say okay, YOU WIN, will that make you go away?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #267)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:11 PM

268. They are alllll up in this thread, aren't they? As usual

Spouting utter nonsense (again, As Usual) and chasing folks around as if anyone is even REMOTELY interested in their opinions.

And as for that post you linked to... All you can do is just shake your head.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #268)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:33 PM

270. You can't make this shit up!

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #86)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 04:45 PM

276. It's unfortunate that people such as myself who know very little about these topics

 

It's unfortunate that people such as myself who know very little about these topics, have to wade through sub-literate, half-educated, idiotic posts like yours which contain nothing but irrational emotion to find the few gems of actual substance.

No doubt, you'll certainly rationalize it as something other than what it is, or attempt to justify its very existence, but for all intents and purposes, yours is a petulant, less-than-clever, half-witted waste of people's time.

(insert rationalization here-- so as to feel more clever that you actually come across as...)

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #276)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 04:49 PM

277. Rationalize to who? You? My, my someone's feeling mighty self important today. Talk about "Waste".




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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #68)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:31 PM

111. Careful, you're going to end up on some one's "list" of

government agents infiltrating DU.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #111)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:43 PM

112. or put on ignore

 

like so much worthless spam.
Id say cya later, but

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Response to reddread (Reply #112)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:59 PM

127. When they ignore you ... you win.

You get the last word. And those who lurk have no idea why they don't respond to you, other than they can't refute you.

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Response to reddread (Reply #112)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:11 AM

180. I don't have anyone on ignore. I am here to exchange information, ideas and points of view,

not to ignore ideas, information and points of view I don't agree with.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #111)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:36 PM

121. The fact that the same paranoid clueless crowd lap up these types of threads is proof they wouldn't

know a genuine conspiracy if it came up and slapped them across the face with a dirty sock.

These threads pop up every few months and the fringers here pant with their delusions that they are "outing some conspiracy" of "covert agents" that post on DU. It would be funny if it wasn't so incredibly sad and dumb.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #121)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:38 PM

122. Are you saying you think the documents Greenwald cited are fakes?

 

Otherwise, I don't see how the conspiracy is deniable.

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Response to Marr (Reply #122)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:41 PM

123. I will say the same thing to you that I say every single time you respond to me despite REPEATED

requests for you to leave me alone.

PUT ME ON IGNORE. If you think that you are going to continue to stalk and harass me, I'd say that you are even more disturbed and clueless than you appear to be.

Edit: TWO MINUTES my post sat there before you just simply HAD to respond to it, huh? Is this a game to you?? Keep playing it. I will happily do my part to see you removed from this web site. The sooner you realize I have nothing to say to you and never will, the sooner you can stop wasting everybody's time.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #123)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:46 PM

125. In other words, you haven't got an answer.

 

Just as aside, you are posting on a public message board. People will respond to you, particularly when you make unsupportable statements.

For the thousandth time, I'm not going to help you by putting you on ignore-- and I'd actually say that your repeated, insult-laden demands for such (along with your baseless accusations of stalking) are what is approaching harassment.

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Response to Marr (Reply #125)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:49 PM

126. You have been asked REPEATEDLY to leave me alone. You refuse for reasons only you understand

So if you refuse, I will continue to remind you. The ONLY response you will get from me is the same -- PUT ME ON IGNORE.

I will NOT answer any of your stupid assed and meaningless questions. I will not read your posts. I don't give a damn what you think say or feel about anything. Your stalking has been noted by this entire board and if you're happy looking like a deranged psychopath then that is EXACTLY how I'm going to treat you.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #126)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:02 PM

128. I will respond to anyone I choose.

 

You may, of course, put me on ignore if you find me so deplorable. What you may not do is make baseless accusations of stalking and personal insults. What's more, your admission above of being determined to get me banned from this forum casts those accusations in a decidedly suspicious light.

Anyway, thank you for your non-answer on the subject the documents cited in Greenwald's article. I have to assume that you don't deny their authenticity, and that's why you won't support your previous statement.

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Response to Marr (Reply #128)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:31 PM

136. You could ask me what the time was and my answer would still be the same

PUT ME ON IGNORE. Do not respond to me.

YOU are the one that looks bad in every single one of these exchanges. It's been well established that you goad like this because that's the only way to get someone to respond to you. As your numerous alerts on my posts demanding that you stop following me around have shown (and you can see how well those alerts have worked by my 0% hide rating), you look like the bully and stalker in these exchanges because that is precisely what you are.

I will NOT respond to your posts. My answer to you REGARDLESS OF THE QUESTION will always be the same --Put me on ignore. Or leave me the bloody hell alone. Either one works for me.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #136)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:38 PM

137. Again, thank you for your non-answer on the subject of the authenticity of Greenwald's

 

cited documents. I'm glad you're not making a such a silly denial.

Have a nice evening.

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Response to Marr (Reply #137)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:47 PM

138. Spin it as desperately and stupidly as you'd like

Public board or not, your attention is intrusive and unwanted. And just like in ANY public place, people have the right to ask abusive nuisances to leave them alone. The fact that you think that my asking you to stop bothering ME is the "real harassment" is definitely indicative of some truly tragic "thinking" and explains alot. It really does explain alot.

Soon the realization that this is the ONLY response you are ever going to get me from on any topic at any time has got to sink in.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #138)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:19 PM

142. Here's a thought-- don't respond.

 

Or better yet, put me on ignore.

Anyway, I'm glad you aren't defending your previous statement about paranoia. It would've been pretty silly.

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Response to Marr (Reply #142)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:21 AM

155. Yet ANOTHER request to you to Leave Me Alone. Yet ANOTHER jury verdict that did not go your way

0-6 this time. Like I said, at some point you are going to get the message one way or another.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #155)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:31 AM

156. Are you accusing me of alerting on you?

 

First, I'm not the one trying to get someone banned-- that's you.

Second, as I've told you repeatedly, I'm not going to ignore you. Look up a few posts at JoePhilly's post #127. That's one of the reasons I'm not going to put you on ignore, and I've little doubt it's one of the reasons you want me to.

Third, I didn't alert on your post, and if you're going to accuse others of being paranoid, you might want to check these bizarre, from-the-hip accusations.

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Response to Marr (Reply #156)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:37 AM

157. I am not trying to get you banned. I don't give a damn about anything that you say

And if you never posted here again, I am 100% sure I wouldn't even notice. I am trying to get you to STOP RESPONDING TO ME and to LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE.

THAT is what I am trying to do. You are actually squatting in this thread making yourself look even worse than usual for what?? To prove that you are going to respond to someone who has absolutely no interest in your points, your questions, your thoughts or positions and has taken every single opportunity they can find to tell you that?

And the fact that you cannot see how incredibly, desperately pathetic that makes you look is PRECISELY one of the many, many, MANY reasons I am asking you AGAIN to leave me alone.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #157)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:53 AM

159. Actually, at this point I'm just wondering if you're constitutionally capable

 

of allowing someone else the last word.

By the way, your admission that you wouldn't even notice if I stopped posting (which I completely believe since the last exchange I recall with you was months ago), kind of makes your earlier accusations of "stalking" seem a bit disingenuous.

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Response to Marr (Reply #159)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:11 AM

161. The only thing "disingenuous" is you trying to pretend that you have anything intelligent to say

The amount of times I have asked you to leave me alone show more than anything the truth of the matter which is that you started this stupid little game, you CONTINUE to play it despite repeated requests to stop and have been playing it for a long time.

The person who refuses to stop stalking me, openly acknowledges that they won't leave me alone despite me having asked them (by this count) about ten times over less than a year to do so is is actually saying that my accusations of stalking are "disingenuous." I'd laugh at this shit if it wasn't so stupid, unnecessary and indicative of something that seems to be quite serious on your part. And the jury comments from all the times I've been alerted on show that more and more people are seeing you. That is not something that you should want to happen. People like you do best under the radar.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:39 AM

164. More paranoid accusations.

 

Jesus Christ, you're boring.

It's clear to me now that you have nothing really to say beyond silly insults and loony accusations. As a kindness to the rest of the forum, I will stop responding to your insults now, and cease providing you a platform. Enjoy the last word.

Good night.

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Response to Marr (Reply #164)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:15 PM

269. So "boring" that you WILL NOT leave me the hell alone

And you could have "spared" all of us and done your "kindness" of not responding to me the first 20 damn times I asked you to do so. Your behavior is so unhinged and devoid of logic that I honestly have NO idea what you seek to gain from all of this. The only thing that's come from all of this is that more folks have seen exactly the type of person you are.

You make no sense. And that is the last word on any of this or so I desperately hope.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #126)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 12:50 AM

294. Wow. Not rude and insulting in the least.


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Response to cui bono (Reply #294)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 12:52 AM

295. Wow. Not needless, a week late and remarkably pitiful in the least either.

Like I said, you need to worry about your own behavior. You're beyond embarrassing yourself.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #295)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 12:57 AM

296. Just pointing out your hypocrisy.

Since you're so concerned about rude and insulting posts I was sure you would want yours pointed out to you so you can catch yourself next time.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #296)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:04 AM

297. Your own hypocricy (not to mention obvious boredom) should be more than enough to keep you

occupied.

You are making such a spectacle of yourself. And for absolutely no reason whatsoever. I'm loving it.

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Response to Marr (Reply #122)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:03 PM

129. Your post #15 is pretty clear.

You think DU is over run by government agents.

I'm betting you have a list.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #129)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:09 PM

131. Did I say that?

 

I said the results of their work are clear here every day.

If you're asking for my opinion, I think certain narratives are advanced on blogs and forums by paid posters, yes. The article posted in the OP makes that a pretty safe assumption.

I certainly think those narratives find their way here-- whether they're posted by actual paid posters directly, or just people who read them elsewhere and were inclined to repeat them of their own accord, I cannot say.

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Response to Marr (Reply #131)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:20 PM

132. See, that's how I see some of the disgruntled left OPs here.

Are they agents of the GOP, endlessly complaining about how terrible Democrats are, working to get Democratic voters to give up and stay home.

Or, are they just regular folks who fall for that tactic when used in other media outlets, who then repeat it on DU unaware that they are being used by the GOP to reduce turnout?

I cannot say.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #132)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:25 PM

133. It's a reasonable thing to wonder.

 

On the other hand, the documents posted in the OP's article pretty much prove that one sort exists, while the other is just idle speculation.

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Response to Marr (Reply #133)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:22 AM

182. The other one is not just idle speculation. The article on another link above

discusses the propagandizing by the government very clearly.

And many on DU notice a few never waivering and always positive reciters of propaganda and talking points for the president.

A normal Democrat supports the president on some policies and not on others. That is normal.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #132)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:19 AM

181. This is the Democratic Underground. It is for opinions of different kinds. We can't learn

anything unless we communicate with each other about issues and try to understand each other.

The Democratic Underground is for people who identify strongly as Democrats but don't necessarily agree with everything that the present leadership of the Democratic Party does or says. We would not be "underground" if we were part of the mainstream, overground crowd.

Someone who is mainstream Democratic all the way, 100% can post on many other websites including maybe the one associated with the Obama White House.

Here, we are underground, trying to talk not only about the great things done by Obama but also about the things he could do much better. One of those things is to end most of the surveillance and all of the propaganda. And while he is at it, he should call for the passage of a constitutional amendment that overturns Citizens United.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #111)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:31 AM

195. They are so fuckin' pathetic, I can't help but scoff at 'em. They don't even know they're being....

used to increase GG's wealth, and divert attention away from the issues like women's rights, voter rights, minority rights, access to healthcare, affordable housing that they used to CLAIM to care about. There's definitely been an infiltration, and it ain't who they think.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #195)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:20 PM

223. Exactly, Tarheel

I would love to see some clarification from Admin, as how they define "kooks and crackpots" here:

Don't be a wingnut (right-wing or extreme-fringe).

Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here. Neither are certain extreme-fringe left-wingers, including advocates of violent political/social change, hard-line communists, terrorist-apologists, America-haters, kooks, crackpots, LaRouchies, and the like.


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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #223)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:56 PM

232. I have my own definition, but the "Paulites" are here, and they boast about "stoking it up".

The hands-off approach has definitely allowed a whole lotta wiggle room where the TOS are concerned.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:02 PM

215. +1. The irony is a bit much, IMO. nt

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:25 PM

226. He needs a reason for the negative reviews---his book is out on the 25th of March. nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #226)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:04 PM

238. Ask Sibel Edmonds about his loony ass followers. They are the "lunatic fringe". n/t

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #242)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:32 PM

245. Kudos to Sibel Edmonds. She is persistent, and she's not letting up. "Checkbook Journalism"....

is a rich man's game. GG is rich, and getting richer because he has government secrets that belong to all of us, and he's out making billion dollar deals with the 1% to increase his own wealth and notoriety. He was a scheister hack lawyer, and a dishonest one at that. Fuck him.

"NSA reporter Glenn Greenwald partners with billionaire eBay founder for new venture"



Pierre Omidyar

You know, some time ago GG openly ruminated about some unnamed billionaire running for POTUS, who wouldn't need financial support from either of the two major parties. It can't be his new financial backer, who's a French born Iranian-American. And if DU is still a partisan board, then GG and his followers should be treated like any other opposition political group.



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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #245)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:07 PM

271. Omidyar is going to co-opt Greenwald. Bet on it. nt

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:37 PM

70. This post deserves Greatest post status...

 

alongside Octafish's "Anatomy of a Deep State". The larger picture is now being given lots of daylight. We, the people, are being duped, spied upon and manipulated by our own government. The subject should not be up for debate anymore. The first look link should be recommended reading for all DU'ers now and in the future.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #70)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:39 PM

85. it is THE story of THIS DECADE

 

following on the Crimes of the Century that the Bush Administration was.
and that was no small time Republican operation.
our entire government and military are at fault.
the "media", particularly the corporate culture that buys the media silence.
this is about as big a deal in modern American history as we will live to see.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #70)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:58 PM

101. Deserves Greatest Page...and lots of daylight...

..and there are people here recoiling and writhing from the rays of the Sunlight.
The Bright Sunlight shines right through them,
and makes them soooo transparent.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #70)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:39 AM

205. +10000000

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:46 PM

73. So far as reputation, I do not respect big money.

For that I must thank my religiously insane mom.

When I was a kid our family would get kicked out of churches. Literally. Big burly bouncers in the foyers.

If what God told my mom differed from what the current church told my mom, well you know who we followed. My mom's God won.

We ended up Quakers. My mom could say what God had told her, people would listen respectfully, and then everyone moved on peacefully...

That sort of thing didn't go over so well with the Catholic church or the Jehovah's Witnesses.

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Response to hunter (Reply #73)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:23 AM

183. I love your story about your mom! Good for her. She spoke what she felt was right.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:51 PM

74. again, I urge reading the comments section after that article.

lots of information there

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Response to grasswire (Reply #74)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:19 PM

90. I Did... it Was a Real Eye-Opener!

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:57 PM

77. Greenwald. LOL...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #77)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:40 PM

98. SidDithers. LOL... nt

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #98)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 11:12 AM

286. Love it!

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #77)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:42 PM

99. Keep quacking....

Your derision is noted.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:25 PM

84. After reading the complete article, it occurs to me that all

of this is standard agitprop strategy, and has been used for just about forever. Discrediting, splitting, infiltration, and reputation destruction have always been standard techniques.

Some nice infographics, though, describing the process, assuming people don't already understand it.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #84)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:30 PM

135. I think that's the point. Not all are so well read as You and I and others who

aren't as old and experienced in the Church Committee, Watergate, Spying on Civil Rights Workers in the 60's, J. Edgar Hoover and more.

So...I think it's a refresher course but also reveals Spying on Steroids.

Old News for You and I....but, that it hasn't ended but only grown with Internet Capabilities does make it "New News for the Newbies."

Just saying....

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #84)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:29 AM

184. It is incompatible with democracy to have the government doing it.

It is sickening. It is OK if the people in the government on their own time and not in their official capacity propagandize, but they need to a) not do the actual mechanical work like GOTV, etc. of party politics on the time they are paid to govern, and b) they should not hire people to propagandize if the people doing the propagandizing are pretending to be unassociated with the government. If people do not state that they are being paid, they are lying by omission, misleading or you could say defrauding other participants on the internet. It makes the administration that pays for that sort of political ad placement look really sleazy once they are found out. That is what causes distrust in the government.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:18 PM

89. Well, Well, Well... most kinda Knew Something Was Up!

 

Read the comments after the article...WOW! This is a massive problem.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:41 PM

91. woo me with science.... said the same thing, but so much better:

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.

[font size=3]It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur.[/font] Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:13 PM

97. It is surprising to me,

that so many here are shocked about this. When I was demonstrating against the VW there were about 200 of us. Later we found out that half of us came from the intelligence services. There are a lot of different ones. They probably even took pictures of each other without realizing that they were in competition.
OWS suffered from the same. Those, who were discovered, showed a clear desire to provoke and stir up the rest.
So, why not the internet? We just have to take everything with a huge, huge grain of salt. IMO

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Response to sadoldgirl (Reply #97)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:34 AM

185. Yes. As it became evident that the OWS might be shut down perhaps with police brutality,

a few of us oldsters from the 'hood went to be present hoping that our presence would warn anyone contemplating any violence that we would not accept that. Of course, we were not the OWS types. We did not look OWS at all. One young man who looked like a police officer in civil clothes kept staring at me as if he was shocked. I think he recognized me from somewhere, and I suspect I know where. It is a place where the police and very respectable people often meet and where the very respectable people are rather in a position higher than the police. I am pleased to think he might have had a little more respect for OWS after that. He was definitely crashing the party to take names. I and my friends there to show support. I felt it was pretty clear that surveillance was in progress.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:22 PM

108. recommend

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:52 PM

113. this explains the outbreak of snowden lynchings.

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:04 PM

114. But we don't have any of those here.

No, not here.



Seriously though. I believe DU should have a rule requiring paid posters to disclose their status. If they are found to have been a paid poster and not revealed that fact those posters should be banned.

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Response to pa28 (Reply #114)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:27 PM

120. How would one identify a paid poster?

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #120)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:44 PM

124. That would be difficult.

However, Wikileaks and Anonymous seem to enjoy exposing the kind of scum who would hang out on political message boards as paid posters.

If they received a list of identities posting on political boards from a known contractor it might make some interesting reading.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #120)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:37 AM

187. Eventually, other DUers would catch on to them.

In fact, they would be surprised about what people say about them in private DU e-mails to each other. Some of those paid folks post some good things. When they go overboard and make fools of themselves, they simply elicit laughter from the real DUers -- but in private.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #187)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:04 PM

216. "Eventually, other DUers would catch on to them"

 

Yup!

Just like you caught on to that one guy/gal....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4566378

Did you tell skinner about your insanely awesome detective skills of being able to identify paid shills and infiltrators?

Thank gawd for REAL DUers like yourself!



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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #216)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:10 PM

239. You seem upset about the wrong thing

Here is (more) evidence that our own government is engaged in psyops against its people, yet the thing you seem upset about is that DUers are concerned that it could/has happened here. Very odd.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #239)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:19 PM

243. I seem upset?

 

You don't know me very well. I'm very easy going and don't get upset easily.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #243)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:34 PM

247. There's this

Cali_Democrat (19,183 posts)
171. Holy fucking shit!!11!

You've caught them! This is really an EXPLOSIVE revelation!

You've discovered a paid govt operative on the DU!

This is definitely something skinner and the admins should know about.

I'd shoot them an email ASAP.

Well done!

Well. Fucking. Done.


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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #247)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:45 PM

252. I wasn't upset at all

 

I was actually having a good laugh as I was typing that out.

The fact that people think they can actually identify paid posters on the interwebz strikes me as very amusing!

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #252)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:47 PM

253. Goes back to my original point

The fact that our own government would do this is not what you chose to comment on...instead you tried to poo-poo the possibility that it has happened here. Telling.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #253)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:51 PM

256. Very telling...

 





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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #256)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:53 PM

258. We agree

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #253)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 05:50 PM

279. An individual violating the law is an unconscionable travesty.

 

The government violating the law? Nothing to see here, move along, go back to demonizing the individual.

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Response to pa28 (Reply #114)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:35 AM

186. I agree.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:08 PM

115. What a shock! Who knew?

Taciturnus Consensu

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:13 PM

117. Fuck our government

 

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Response to Vattel (Reply #117)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:08 PM

141. Fuck poor readers...

Or are you British?

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:06 PM

130. Rec,d, those propagandists are right here in this thread too

 

As others have said, they're very easy to spot too with all their personal insults and talking points.

That's the thing with propaganda, it never changes regardless of the topic. Propaganda tries to elicit an emotional response instead of a rational thought process.

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Response to Corruption Inc (Reply #130)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:41 AM

188. Exactly. The ones I suspect of being paid posters don't respond to questions about why

they think as they do. One of them posts a lot of quotes from here and there, most of which are talking points. Still, some of the information from that person is quite useful and interesting. Still, he or she should let other people know that what he or she posts is not his or her original thought. It is OK to post other people's comments and thoughts some, maybe even much, of the time. But always? That's where you begin to suspect a paid poster.

Also, as someone mentioned, all those personally insulting posts meant to hurt people's feelings. Those who post them are suspect.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:58 PM

139. In DC it's called "bipartisanship."

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:31 PM

144. K&R

 

“Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.

How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. ”
~ Alan Moore, V for Vendetta




- Maybe that's why DU is in so much turmoil. Well, more than usual.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:43 PM

146. K&RRRR

Late to the discussion, but so appreciate this OP. Watching this country disintegrate into a police state is beyond enraging.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:51 PM

148. They're not that covert to me. They're not hard to spot if they're talking, like here on DU. nt

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:11 PM

151. Blue links n/t

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Response to Pastiche423 (Reply #151)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:42 AM

189. Woops! No names please.

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Response to Pastiche423 (Reply #151)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:21 AM

191. "YOU MAKE NO SENSE".


Or has she dropped that now? That used to be her catchphrase. I can't see, she's been on my ignore list for ages.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:43 PM

152. I think a significant chunk of my IGNORE list has just been explained.....

Without having read beyond the OP yet, I'm pretty certain I'm not the first to make this observation.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:42 AM

165. K&R

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:04 AM

168. Why does this surprise anyone?

This from Steve Kangas - last century! - before he killed himself in 1999 (two bullets to the head in the bathrooms of R Scaife offices, iirc):

CIA operations follow the same recurring script. First, American business interests abroad are threatened by a popular or democratically elected leader. The people support their leader because he intends to conduct land reform, strengthen unions, redistribute wealth, nationalize foreign-owned industry, and regulate business to protect workers, consumers and the environment. So, on behalf of American business, and often with their help, the CIA mobilizes the opposition. First it identifies right-wing groups within the country (usually the military), and offers them a deal: "We'll put you in power if you maintain a favorable business climate for us." The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book: propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator’s security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder. The victims are said to be "communists," but almost always they are just peasants, liberals, moderates, labor union leaders, political opponents and advocates of free speech and democracy. Widespread human rights abuses follow.

This scenario has been repeated so many times that the CIA actually teaches it in a special school, the notorious "School of the Americas." (It opened in Panama but later moved to Fort Benning, Georgia.) Critics have nicknamed it the "School of the Dictators" and "School of the Assassins." Here, the CIA trains Latin American military officers how to conduct coups, including the use of interrogation, torture and murder.


Why would it surprise anyone that the same establishment that sponsored our Central American policy post-Carter has now turned this same apparatus upon its own citizenry?

I mean, cmon', GWB appoints the architects of Honduran and El Salvador death squads to high posts in his domestic administration, burns the constitution in pursuit of wars for crony profit, deepens the entrenchment of shadow government - why is this a surprise?

No candidate at cross-purposes from these powers survives the national stage (think Gross' Friendly Fascism) - thus is spawned Barrack Obama. His progressive instincts were cut off at the knees as soon as he took the oath of office. He has influence, but not too much - otherwise he would not be in office...

What did we expect, given our history?

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Response to davekriss (Reply #168)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:54 AM

193. it doesnt

 

although some interested parties seem to be in Denial mode.
others Disruptive, demanding NAMES! PROOF!
Yet the recs always seem to tell a tail.
Must be serious demerits for hitting the button.
that Greenwald guy has their number, and it seems he has earned their contempt, hatred
and fear.

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Response to reddread (Reply #193)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:57 AM

208. They are certainly flailing.

1. It's all a conspiracy theory.
2. It's old news. Everybody knew this was happening.
3. But it's LEGAL.
4. Something smeary about Glenn Greenwald.
5. It's Obama hate.

Finally, we have media attention to this reeking, totalitarian-style government campaign of smearing, disinformation, and manipulation, targeted at its own citizens.

They honestly don't know what to do.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #208)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:59 PM

234. 6. Accusing Greenwald of hiring astroturfers / HBGary to "character asassinate" his critics.

That's a new hilarious turn of play. Of course its asked as a question.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #208)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:11 PM

241. Pretty limited repertoire. What a crappy singing school.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:26 AM

192. K&R

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:44 AM

199. At least he is finally admitting whi he is!

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Response to whistler162 (Reply #199)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 05:53 PM

280. I'm not following you.

 

What are you getting at?

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:46 AM

200. This same thing is posted on DU every 8-12 months. nt

 

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Response to reddread (Reply #203)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:06 AM

204. Here's proof. And you understand the difference between predicting and disproving something, right?

 

For instance. "I insist 2+2=5. And I'll just bet some smartypants is going to say it's 4. just watch"

That doesnt mean someone responding and pointing out the answer 4 is wrong.

Here is at least one prior thread on this same subject 18 months ago. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1004633

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #204)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:56 AM

206. so is it ct or is it old news?

Star Member stevenleser (17,426 posts)

170. Hate to break it to you, but, the very idea of that is ridiculous.





I'm not saying that it is above the intelligence agency of any country in the world to do something like that if it would yield some kind of important result(s).

But the fact of the matter is, there is nothing that influencing DU would yield any agency in terms of results. No internet forum is nearly big enough to influence enough of the country in any direction on policy. If you took all of the major internet discussion forums of all ideological persuasions in the US, I doubt there are enough people in all of them to where influencing them would matter. That is before you get into the more detail oriented problems like, for instance, trying to get all of DU and all of HotAir to go the same way on an issue.

The only folks that buy stuff like this are the kind that generally buy into creative speculation ideas.

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #206)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:59 AM

210. Both. As I proved, the suggestion keeps getting posted here, and the idea is ridiculous.

 

Your arguing with me is proof of how difficult it is to convince any other DUer of anything.

I've even provided the link and you still dispute that this has been asserted before.

Good luck to an agent provocateur convincing DUers of ANYTHING.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #210)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:22 PM

224. what provocateurs?

 

I suppose the literal interpretation of your last sentence can stand.
But these sorts of GOVERNMENT DEPLOYED SOCK PUPPET OPERATIONS
are not looking to stir up bad behavior in their victims. They are there to keep the bad stuff safely
covered by their "plausible" denials and disruptive attempts. Attempts to silence or remove offending POV's.
Trying to sucker people into violating the board rules.
As far as inciting crimes, thats a tough road for an infiltrator surrounded by peace and justice minded adults.
If they hope to succeed they have to do all the work and prey upon someone of weak mind and
immature spirit.
Having been somewhat famously spied upon by a JTTF infiltrator, I realize that it was not an opportunity
for provoking illegal actions, but if it had been, that surely would have played out.
It is more than enough that OUR government was deploying military "anti-terror" assets on peace advocates,
rather than expending all efforts watching over weak points in infrastructure.
It is almost completely certain that the political movements in opposition to illegal invasions and the usurping of
constitutionally guaranteed protections by a government unwilling to protect its own election process
WAS the main concern.
thats a straw horse youre riding.
Maybe we should take up a collection and buy you a real pony.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #210)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:28 PM

227. please be exact

are you saying this op and greenwald's article are not true?

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #206)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:00 PM

211. staking it all right through the heart of the matter

 

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Response to reddread (Reply #211)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:15 PM

221. Yep, like anti-vax it's old AND it's ct.

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #204)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:57 AM

207. predictable

 

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Response to reddread (Reply #207)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:12 PM

219. It's either been posted before or it hasn't. It's predictability is irrelevant. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #204)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:31 PM

272. Wait a minute. So before there was documentary evidence, it was paranoia, and now that there IS

 

such evidence, it's "old news"?

Huh?

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Response to Marr (Reply #272)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 08:32 PM

273. perceptive n/t

 

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Response to Marr (Reply #272)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 11:51 PM

285. Gotta love the dismissal of the evidence in the defense of

spying. Under Bush or another Republican President, they'd be having conniptions over it.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #200)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:02 PM

214. There are all kinds

of things posted on DU repeatedly. Is there a problem with that?

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Response to TBF (Reply #214)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:14 PM

220. When something is asserted to be new or special or unique? Yes. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #220)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:34 PM

228. Where is the commentary making those assertions?

I must have missed it.

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Response to TBF (Reply #228)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:58 PM

233. Right there. In Steve's comments.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #200)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:05 PM

217. Proving what, exactly?

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #200)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:35 PM

248. Damage control. nt

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:01 PM

212. Pssst.....Glenn's book is out March 25th. He's trying to innoculate himself from criticism. nt

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:01 PM

213. Sort of like the attempts to destroy Pres. Obama's reputation?

Hmmm....

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #213)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:16 PM

222. Shhhh, only posts in favor of Obama can be bad. Didn't you get the memo?

 

Hmmmm indeed.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:07 PM

218. Never! True, our gov't secretly kills US citizens with drones. But disrupt the internet? Never! nt

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:01 PM

235. there is a big difference between stopping lies, vs. spreading false information

If people are being hired to participate in web discussion groups in various languages around the world in order to discredit fake conspiracy theories, that is a good thing. (In the 1960s, US city police forces found that a false rumor could quickly cause violent riots, and they started "rumor control" hotlines where people could find out if a rumor was true.)

Of course, if government agents are spreading lies, that is an entirely different matter.

I believe this effort is probably more concerned about protecting the reputations of the US military than protecting Pres. Obama.

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Response to JPZenger (Reply #235)

Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:03 PM

237. WMD's n/t

 

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 10:27 AM

274. kick

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #274)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 04:43 PM

275. another........!

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 02:20 PM

288. Important.

Should be pinned to the top of every board.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Sat Mar 1, 2014, 02:25 PM

289. I have here in my hand a LIST! nt

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 07:59 AM

290. Kick for a reminder of the propaganda in our midst.

Always the same group.

Thank you, Edward Snowden.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #290)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 10:26 AM

291. warmongering, overthrowing, assassinating machinery

 

no place in this party for murderous punks who care nothing for the suffering of the innocent.
just bloody lust for profits and stolen power.

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Response to reddread (Reply #291)

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 11:27 AM

293. Thank you.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:38 AM

298. This slide from the GG piece is exemplified by the tactics/behavior of the likely parties.

Thanks, folks, for demonstrating to the rest of us, so many of the cointelpro techniques discussed and illustrated in Greenwald' s article. You've made it all so much easier to recognize.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:44 AM

299. kick

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:31 PM

300. up up and away

 

easy as 123, looks like people arent happy with this information?
those charts need to be posted EVERYWHERE!

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Response to reddread (Reply #300)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:34 PM

301. Kicking for paranoia-fueled hilariy

 

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #301)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:12 PM

302. ever been spied upon?

 

and found out about it?
paranoia is so out dated.
i wonder if you have the freedom to admit it?

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #301)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 03:03 PM

306. kicking for scaredy cats

 

too frightened to answer a question.

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:15 PM

303. There's a word for this: psyops

And they're not supposed to practice psyops on US, goddamnit.

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Response to TroglodyteScholar (Reply #303)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:17 PM

304. except in CNN

 

unless they get caught.
then they stop.
really.
they said they did, didnt they?

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:19 PM

305. You can spot them by their shared emoticon

--->

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Mon Mar 3, 2014, 05:19 PM

307. kick

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #307)

Tue Mar 4, 2014, 09:03 AM

308. Recommend!

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Response to DesMoinesDem (Original post)

Tue Mar 4, 2014, 12:37 PM

309. kick

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