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DesMoinesDem

(1,569 posts)
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:32 PM Feb 2014

How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations


By Glenn Greenwald

One of the many pressing stories that remains to be told from the Snowden archive is how western intelligence agencies are attempting to manipulate and control online discourse with extreme tactics of deception and reputation-destruction. It’s time to tell a chunk of that story, complete with the relevant documents.

...

Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable. To see how extremist these programs are, just consider the tactics they boast of using to achieve those ends: “false flag operations” (posting material to the internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting “negative information” on various forums. Here is one illustrative list of tactics from the latest GCHQ document we’re publishing today:

...

But these GCHQ documents are the first to prove that a major western government is using some of the most controversial techniques to disseminate deception online and harm the reputations of targets. Under the tactics they use, the state is deliberately spreading lies on the internet about whichever individuals it targets, including the use of what GCHQ itself calls “false flag operations” and emails to people’s families and friends. Who would possibly trust a government to exercise these powers at all, let alone do so in secret, with virtually no oversight, and outside of any cognizable legal framework?

Then there is the use of psychology and other social sciences to not only understand, but shape and control, how online activism and discourse unfolds. Today’s newly published document touts the work of GCHQ’s “Human Science Operations Cell”, devoted to “online human intelligence” and “strategic influence and disruption”:

...

Under the title “Online Covert Action”, the document details a variety of means to engage in “influence and info ops” as well as “disruption and computer net attack”, while dissecting how human beings can be manipulated using “leaders”, “trust, “obedience” and “compliance”:

...

Whatever else is true, no government should be able to engage in these tactics: what justification is there for having government agencies target people – who have been charged with no crime – for reputation-destruction, infiltrate online political communities, and develop techniques for manipulating online discourse? But to allow those actions with no public knowledge or accountability is particularly unjustifiable.


https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
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How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations (Original Post) DesMoinesDem Feb 2014 OP
k&r thanks for posting. nm rhett o rick Feb 2014 #1
That of course could never ever happen here. nadinbrzezinski Feb 2014 #2
nope bobduca Feb 2014 #19
Well there was this from Salon Autumn Feb 2014 #30
This really has me thinking...are there covert agents here? Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #58
non-citizens may have some advantage here reddread Feb 2014 #64
I doubt one could ever know. If a republican were in office it Autumn Feb 2014 #66
I'd look for someone who is extremely well organized in his/her posts and never says JDPriestly Feb 2014 #166
Holy fucking shit!!11! Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #171
Glad you can appreciate. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #172
That is 100% creepy right there. arcane1 Feb 2014 #75
They're here! Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #79
I wonder if the Administration pays the same if Jackpine Radical Feb 2014 #104
They pay handsomely Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #105
Pay is based on the number of smilies used [n/t] Maedhros Feb 2014 #278
Psst...Glenn's book is out on Mar. 25th. Now he has a reason for all the mean Amazon reviews. nt msanthrope Feb 2014 #225
Here are a couple of very interesting paras from that Salon story: Jackpine Radical Feb 2014 #103
very interesting reddread Feb 2014 #106
Indeed. (nt) Jackpine Radical Feb 2014 #116
Sunstein's the guy who recc'd we forgive Bush war crimes. Octafish Mar 2014 #292
It's about time this piece of the horror story begins to get some exposure. woo me with science Feb 2014 #3
+1, well said. Marr Feb 2014 #16
Nice! Enthusiast Feb 2014 #21
But we must be grateful, at least, that we have a Dem rusty fender Feb 2014 #42
Woo, you said the same thiong as Greenwald, but... bvar22 Feb 2014 #92
No, thank *you.* woo me with science Feb 2014 #198
This is just what I see here when certain subjects come up Mojorabbit Feb 2014 #229
this response is wrong. frwrfpos Feb 2014 #107
If you haven't read Greg Palast's Vulture's Picnic, you should. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #170
True. Combine surveillance, record-keeping on every individual's whereabouts and activities JDPriestly Feb 2014 #169
We don't have concentration camps Aerows Feb 2014 #250
You make a good point. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #254
Maybe they'll just start treating us like email-- Jackpine Radical Feb 2014 #281
K&R'd! snot Feb 2014 #4
They really are not that hard to spot. And of course, Anonymous confirmed that Glenn Greenwald sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #5
"This SHOULD be illegal, but of course we have to be an actual Democracy..." woo me with science Feb 2014 #9
Things are moving fast. The privatization of everything is nearly complete. sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #13
funny how you have zero criticism of the Ukrainian despot who ordered snipers to murder geek tragedy Feb 2014 #35
You mean the protesters that are largely made up of neo-nazis and fascists? qwertyq Feb 2014 #55
if an army sniper suspects someone is a fascist, then it's okay to shoot them in the city street? geek tragedy Feb 2014 #56
No, of course not. Jackpine Radical Feb 2014 #282
inside the US, absolutely not nt geek tragedy Feb 2014 #283
True, we moslty just let the cops eliminate potential problems with their sidearms. Jackpine Radical Feb 2014 #284
a symptom , not the disease ... MindMover Feb 2014 #57
Funny you ignored everything and stuck to the talking point that is supposed to justify sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #87
your crocodile tears for a despot who ordered the murder of political protestors geek tragedy Feb 2014 #88
Your support for coup d'etats in democracies, is also noted. Btw, that 'duly noted' thing, sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #153
How many dead protestors in the US vs Ukraine? geek tragedy Feb 2014 #160
You aren't very fond of the 'left' are you? sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #162
Not an attack on the left, just those who embrace authoritarianism geek tragedy Feb 2014 #163
Like I said, not very fond of the Left, and you provide more of the same old 'commie' sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #167
Sabrina Aerows Feb 2014 #255
When our nation's leaders murder, it doesn't seem so bad. Vattel Feb 2014 #118
Have you read Vultures' Picnic by Greg Palast. It lays out some of the interesting details JDPriestly Feb 2014 #173
I was going to quote the same. It's certainly quote worthy. Enthusiast Feb 2014 #22
+1 jsr Feb 2014 #33
+1 a whole bunch! Enthusiast Feb 2014 #23
then name names. if you have identified government agents posting at DU geek tragedy Feb 2014 #34
If the poster were to name name's..... go west young man Feb 2014 #54
if they named my name, I'd have a good chuckle at their stupidity nt geek tragedy Feb 2014 #62
Then don't invite naming names. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #174
As much as it bothers me to say it Aerows Feb 2014 #259
I've seen it. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #261
Not the first time, Skinner admitted to this during the transition from DU2 to DU3 mrdmk Feb 2014 #287
Go straight to the admins ... tell them who's on your "list". JoePhilly Feb 2014 #109
"Call outs" used to be against the rules on DU BuelahWitch Feb 2014 #61
so observing DU rules is secondary to resisting efforts by the security state to spy on us? nt geek tragedy Feb 2014 #63
This website is privately owned BuelahWitch Feb 2014 #65
So you'd rather "stay here" than fight the security state deploying govt agents to post on DU? Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #76
They don't need government agents on the internet. All they need are willing participants sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #67
Greenwald's personality is really besides the point. geek tragedy Feb 2014 #69
Of course, that is the reason why we need journalists like Greenwald and sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #72
some are agents, some are that agents "personas" questionseverything Feb 2014 #94
The thing about RWers is that they are never conscious enough to realize how transparent Zorra Feb 2014 #41
+1 & LOL. Egalitarian Thug Feb 2014 #46
So you maintain a "list", right? JoePhilly Feb 2014 #110
Who needs any list? I go by the talking points, not the messengers. sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #134
Upton Sinclair 1935 bobduca Feb 2014 #145
Lol, I like that quote ... sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #147
B,but he's a NARCISSIST!!!!!! nt Bonobo Feb 2014 #119
And they also train people to do it for them zeemike Feb 2014 #6
Busted, but no repercussions; like O'keefe and the Acorn fiasco... dougolat Feb 2014 #11
Oh, yeah. It was highly effective. Enthusiast Feb 2014 #25
Effective.... only because the Democratic Party Leadership... bvar22 Feb 2014 #95
Exactly. Enthusiast Feb 2014 #96
Astute post. Really interesting. Thanks. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #175
Well there are a few obvious ones Tumbulu Feb 2014 #7
freedom of the press is a benefit conferred to those who own a press bobduca Feb 2014 #20
That's what is setting off the NSA's efforts to do surveillance and propagandize. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #176
If it's so obvious, then you should have no trouble outing these government agents nt geek tragedy Feb 2014 #37
only a matter of time reddread Feb 2014 #38
It is really not a good idea Aerows Feb 2014 #260
well, well, well. nt grasswire Feb 2014 #8
thank you again, Edward Snowden. nt grasswire Feb 2014 #10
keep this pinned to the top of page 1 reddread Feb 2014 #12
It is coming out, but watch out for the 'explainers' who should be along anytime now. sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #14
We see the results of their work here every day, and it's quite obvious. Marr Feb 2014 #15
put the swooners on Ignore Skittles Feb 2014 #18
better read the comments section. nt grasswire Feb 2014 #17
+1000000000 woo me with science Feb 2014 #26
Yes...interesting read and some nice refresher links from commenters... KoKo Feb 2014 #60
K&R. Of Course we would "never" have them here... Katashi_itto Feb 2014 #24
Yeah, totally ridiculous Puzzledtraveller Feb 2014 #28
DDDD Deny, Disrupt, Degrade, Deceive Octafish Feb 2014 #27
someone on the comments section.. grasswire Feb 2014 #100
No one's going to get the "Dude" anymore. JackRiddler Feb 2014 #102
Expert professional opinions always have the best facts to guide us jsr Feb 2014 #29
K&R Coyotl Feb 2014 #31
The more you go through it, the uglier it is. nt woo me with science Feb 2014 #32
K&R deutsey Feb 2014 #36
But,but,but....Greenwald and Snowden are jerks, therefoe this doesn't matter Armstead Feb 2014 #39
So you think groups like Anonymous should be free to attack the Internet whenever they wish. randome Feb 2014 #40
Who is a legitmate target of such tactics? rusty fender Feb 2014 #43
That is an excellent question. About time someone asked it. randome Feb 2014 #44
No, nor do I think the giovernment should be able to either Armstead Feb 2014 #49
according to the original leaks questionseverything Feb 2014 #93
up up and away reddread Feb 2014 #45
Kick. /nt Marr Feb 2014 #47
Not quite seeing where the "illegal" part is in all of this... Blue_Tires Feb 2014 #48
Isn't that bad enough? Armstead Feb 2014 #50
So are we ato assume that the gov't the the big bad dog in this Sheepshank Feb 2014 #53
typical false equivalence bobduca Feb 2014 #150
of course I'm stating the possibility exists....did you not read it properly? Sheepshank Feb 2014 #194
Koch, Fox and Beck maybe. But Greenwald? You way overestimate or underestimate him. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #178
THERE IS ALWAYS people out there willing to volunteer for their precious cause Sheepshank Feb 2014 #197
Yes Greenwald has hired HBGary to infiltrate forums and post on his behalf bobduca Feb 2014 #201
Depending on how it is done and for what purpose, it could be fraud, defamation (in the case JDPriestly Feb 2014 #177
Gee, I wonder why they were keeping that secret? Thank you, Edward Snowden. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2014 #51
k&r for exposure. n/t Laelth Feb 2014 #52
HUGE K & R !!! WillyT Feb 2014 #59
Project much, Glennie Glenn? We know that your "disciples" dominate the web. Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #68
Too funny. Discredit everyone who criticizes Greenwald. ProSense Feb 2014 #71
Are you saying these documents are fake, and the government isn't actually doing this? /nt Marr Feb 2014 #78
No, ProSense Feb 2014 #80
To borrow a phrase... Marr Feb 2014 #81
LOL! ProSense Feb 2014 #83
Do you think that any of the people posting on DU get paid to do it? JDPriestly Feb 2014 #190
Indeed. I am saying that the U.S. government (including the NSA) isn't actually doing this. ConservativeDemocrat Feb 2014 #140
So... Greenwald just made those documents up? Marr Feb 2014 #143
You actualy will *acknowledge* a fact? ConservativeDemocrat Feb 2014 #154
Look, if this kind of diversionary dissembling is all you're going to offer... Marr Feb 2014 #158
The problem with taking any side for or against Anonymous is that the moniker JDPriestly Feb 2014 #179
And this is a quite excellent post that truly explains Greenwald. This is merely a ramp up to the msanthrope Feb 2014 #209
I keep wondering when the world will figure out that GG is Alex Jones with a better hair stylist. Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #86
smear by association :fail bobduca Feb 2014 #149
Right back atcha, big boy. Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #196
I made no such attempt to associate Greenwald with a screaming picture of Alex Jones. You did that. bobduca Feb 2014 #202
Fuck Glenn Greenwald & Alex Jones, brothers from another Mother. Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #230
repeat the lie, repeat the lie, repeat the lie! bobduca Feb 2014 #231
Ooohhh. Looks like a touched a nerve with one or both of your heroes? Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #236
Here's a clue. bobduca Feb 2014 #240
!!! Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #249
Lol, right on cue. Am I psychic or what? I love it when I make predictions and they arrive, right sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #244
Quick! Tell us how many US households watch the Kremlin sponsored Russia Today? Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #246
So what do you think of the US Government spying on every single American? sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #251
I thought not! Don't ever change sabrina. You are nothing, if not 100% consistent. Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #257
I haven't changed. Remember when Dems were OUTRAGED over Bush spying on the American people?? sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #262
Until you can back this up, I'll refrain from taking your interrogation seriously. Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #263
Spying on the American People is a crime. Which is why Dems were so outraged sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #264
And "consistently" wrong! Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #265
Then you agree NOW with the Government spying on the American people. sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #266
If I say okay, YOU WIN, will that make you go away? Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #267
They are alllll up in this thread, aren't they? As usual Number23 Feb 2014 #268
You can't make this shit up! Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #270
It's unfortunate that people such as myself who know very little about these topics LanternWaste Feb 2014 #276
Rationalize to who? You? My, my someone's feeling mighty self important today. Talk about "Waste". Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #277
Careful, you're going to end up on some one's "list" of JoePhilly Feb 2014 #111
or put on ignore reddread Feb 2014 #112
When they ignore you ... you win. JoePhilly Feb 2014 #127
I don't have anyone on ignore. I am here to exchange information, ideas and points of view, JDPriestly Feb 2014 #180
The fact that the same paranoid clueless crowd lap up these types of threads is proof they wouldn't Number23 Feb 2014 #121
Are you saying you think the documents Greenwald cited are fakes? Marr Feb 2014 #122
I will say the same thing to you that I say every single time you respond to me despite REPEATED Number23 Feb 2014 #123
In other words, you haven't got an answer. Marr Feb 2014 #125
You have been asked REPEATEDLY to leave me alone. You refuse for reasons only you understand Number23 Feb 2014 #126
I will respond to anyone I choose. Marr Feb 2014 #128
You could ask me what the time was and my answer would still be the same Number23 Feb 2014 #136
Again, thank you for your non-answer on the subject of the authenticity of Greenwald's Marr Feb 2014 #137
Spin it as desperately and stupidly as you'd like Number23 Feb 2014 #138
Here's a thought-- don't respond. Marr Feb 2014 #142
Yet ANOTHER request to you to Leave Me Alone. Yet ANOTHER jury verdict that did not go your way Number23 Feb 2014 #155
Are you accusing me of alerting on you? Marr Feb 2014 #156
I am not trying to get you banned. I don't give a damn about anything that you say Number23 Feb 2014 #157
Actually, at this point I'm just wondering if you're constitutionally capable Marr Feb 2014 #159
The only thing "disingenuous" is you trying to pretend that you have anything intelligent to say Number23 Feb 2014 #161
More paranoid accusations. Marr Feb 2014 #164
So "boring" that you WILL NOT leave me the hell alone Number23 Feb 2014 #269
Wow. Not rude and insulting in the least. cui bono Mar 2014 #294
Wow. Not needless, a week late and remarkably pitiful in the least either. Number23 Mar 2014 #295
Just pointing out your hypocrisy. cui bono Mar 2014 #296
Your own hypocricy (not to mention obvious boredom) should be more than enough to keep you Number23 Mar 2014 #297
Your post #15 is pretty clear. JoePhilly Feb 2014 #129
Did I say that? Marr Feb 2014 #131
See, that's how I see some of the disgruntled left OPs here. JoePhilly Feb 2014 #132
It's a reasonable thing to wonder. Marr Feb 2014 #133
The other one is not just idle speculation. The article on another link above JDPriestly Feb 2014 #182
This is the Democratic Underground. It is for opinions of different kinds. We can't learn JDPriestly Feb 2014 #181
They are so fuckin' pathetic, I can't help but scoff at 'em. They don't even know they're being.... Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #195
Exactly, Tarheel Bobbie Jo Feb 2014 #223
I have my own definition, but the "Paulites" are here, and they boast about "stoking it up". Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #232
+1. The irony is a bit much, IMO. nt ecstatic Feb 2014 #215
He needs a reason for the negative reviews---his book is out on the 25th of March. nt msanthrope Feb 2014 #226
Ask Sibel Edmonds about his loony ass followers. They are the "lunatic fringe". n/t Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #238
Sibel got the best of Greenwald. So did Sarah Harrison. msanthrope Feb 2014 #242
Kudos to Sibel Edmonds. She is persistent, and she's not letting up. "Checkbook Journalism".... Tarheel_Dem Feb 2014 #245
Omidyar is going to co-opt Greenwald. Bet on it. nt msanthrope Feb 2014 #271
This post deserves Greatest post status... go west young man Feb 2014 #70
it is THE story of THIS DECADE reddread Feb 2014 #85
Deserves Greatest Page...and lots of daylight... bvar22 Feb 2014 #101
+10000000 woo me with science Feb 2014 #205
So far as reputation, I do not respect big money. hunter Feb 2014 #73
I love your story about your mom! Good for her. She spoke what she felt was right. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #183
again, I urge reading the comments section after that article. grasswire Feb 2014 #74
I Did... it Was a Real Eye-Opener! fascisthunter Feb 2014 #90
Greenwald. LOL...nt SidDithers Feb 2014 #77
SidDithers. LOL... nt hootinholler Feb 2014 #98
Love it! Puglover Feb 2014 #286
Keep quacking.... grasswire Feb 2014 #99
Der Spiegel covering this story. go west young man Feb 2014 #82
After reading the complete article, it occurs to me that all MineralMan Feb 2014 #84
I think that's the point. Not all are so well read as You and I and others who KoKo Feb 2014 #135
It is incompatible with democracy to have the government doing it. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #184
Well, Well, Well... most kinda Knew Something Was Up! fascisthunter Feb 2014 #89
woo me with science.... said the same thing, but so much better: bvar22 Feb 2014 #91
It is surprising to me, sadoldgirl Feb 2014 #97
Yes. As it became evident that the OWS might be shut down perhaps with police brutality, JDPriestly Feb 2014 #185
recommend frwrfpos Feb 2014 #108
this explains the outbreak of snowden lynchings. Warren Stupidity Feb 2014 #113
But we don't have any of those here. pa28 Feb 2014 #114
How would one identify a paid poster? Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #120
That would be difficult. pa28 Feb 2014 #124
Eventually, other DUers would catch on to them. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #187
"Eventually, other DUers would catch on to them" Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #216
You seem upset about the wrong thing LondonReign2 Feb 2014 #239
I seem upset? Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #243
There's this LondonReign2 Feb 2014 #247
I wasn't upset at all Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #252
Goes back to my original point LondonReign2 Feb 2014 #253
Very telling... Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #256
We agree LondonReign2 Feb 2014 #258
An individual violating the law is an unconscionable travesty. Maedhros Feb 2014 #279
I agree. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #186
What a shock! Who knew? Zorra Feb 2014 #115
Fuck our government Vattel Feb 2014 #117
Fuck poor readers... ConservativeDemocrat Feb 2014 #141
Rec,d, those propagandists are right here in this thread too Corruption Inc Feb 2014 #130
Exactly. The ones I suspect of being paid posters don't respond to questions about why JDPriestly Feb 2014 #188
In DC it's called "bipartisanship." blkmusclmachine Feb 2014 #139
K&R DeSwiss Feb 2014 #144
K&RRRR Little_Wing Feb 2014 #146
They're not that covert to me. They're not hard to spot if they're talking, like here on DU. nt ChisolmTrailDem Feb 2014 #148
Blue links n/t Pastiche423 Feb 2014 #151
Woops! No names please. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #189
"YOU MAKE NO SENSE". sibelian Feb 2014 #191
I think a significant chunk of my IGNORE list has just been explained..... mike_c Feb 2014 #152
K&R bobduca Feb 2014 #165
Why does this surprise anyone? davekriss Feb 2014 #168
it doesnt reddread Feb 2014 #193
They are certainly flailing. woo me with science Feb 2014 #208
6. Accusing Greenwald of hiring astroturfers / HBGary to "character asassinate" his critics. bobduca Feb 2014 #234
Bwah! woo me with science Mar 2014 #310
Pretty limited repertoire. What a crappy singing school. jsr Feb 2014 #241
K&R woo me with science Feb 2014 #192
At least he is finally admitting whi he is! whistler162 Feb 2014 #199
I'm not following you. Maedhros Feb 2014 #280
This same thing is posted on DU every 8-12 months. nt stevenleser Feb 2014 #200
link reddread Feb 2014 #203
Here's proof. And you understand the difference between predicting and disproving something, right? stevenleser Feb 2014 #204
so is it ct or is it old news? questionseverything Feb 2014 #206
Both. As I proved, the suggestion keeps getting posted here, and the idea is ridiculous. stevenleser Feb 2014 #210
what provocateurs? reddread Feb 2014 #224
please be exact questionseverything Feb 2014 #227
staking it all right through the heart of the matter reddread Feb 2014 #211
Yep, like anti-vax it's old AND it's ct. stevenleser Feb 2014 #221
predictable reddread Feb 2014 #207
It's either been posted before or it hasn't. It's predictability is irrelevant. nt stevenleser Feb 2014 #219
Wait a minute. So before there was documentary evidence, it was paranoia, and now that there IS Marr Feb 2014 #272
perceptive n/t reddread Feb 2014 #273
Gotta love the dismissal of the evidence in the defense of neverforget Feb 2014 #285
There are all kinds TBF Feb 2014 #214
When something is asserted to be new or special or unique? Yes. nt stevenleser Feb 2014 #220
Where is the commentary making those assertions? TBF Feb 2014 #228
Right there. In Steve's comments. Romulox Feb 2014 #233
Proving what, exactly? Romulox Feb 2014 #217
Damage control. nt Zorra Feb 2014 #248
Pssst.....Glenn's book is out March 25th. He's trying to innoculate himself from criticism. nt msanthrope Feb 2014 #212
Sort of like the attempts to destroy Pres. Obama's reputation? ecstatic Feb 2014 #213
Shhhh, only posts in favor of Obama can be bad. Didn't you get the memo? stevenleser Feb 2014 #222
Never! True, our gov't secretly kills US citizens with drones. But disrupt the internet? Never! nt Romulox Feb 2014 #218
there is a big difference between stopping lies, vs. spreading false information JPZenger Feb 2014 #235
WMD's n/t reddread Feb 2014 #237
kick woo me with science Feb 2014 #274
another........! KoKo Feb 2014 #275
Important. woo me with science Mar 2014 #288
I have here in my hand a LIST! nt Bobbie Jo Mar 2014 #289
Kick for a reminder of the propaganda in our midst. woo me with science Mar 2014 #290
warmongering, overthrowing, assassinating machinery reddread Mar 2014 #291
Thank you. woo me with science Mar 2014 #293
This slide from the GG piece is exemplified by the tactics/behavior of the likely parties. hedda_foil Mar 2014 #298
kick woo me with science Mar 2014 #299
up up and away reddread Mar 2014 #300
Kicking for paranoia-fueled hilariy Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #301
ever been spied upon? reddread Mar 2014 #302
kicking for scaredy cats reddread Mar 2014 #306
There's a word for this: psyops TroglodyteScholar Mar 2014 #303
except in CNN reddread Mar 2014 #304
You can spot them by their shared emoticon Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #305
kick woo me with science Mar 2014 #307
Recommend! KoKo Mar 2014 #308
kick woo me with science Mar 2014 #309
 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
58. This really has me thinking...are there covert agents here?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:22 PM
Feb 2014

...and which DU poster is a covert agent or paid-to-post operative?

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
64. non-citizens may have some advantage here
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:31 PM
Feb 2014

much as they try to swap domestic intel jobs between allies,
I would not be surprised if some neighbors to the north were picking up a few Loons involving themselves here.

Autumn

(45,508 posts)
66. I doubt one could ever know. If a republican were in office it
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:33 PM
Feb 2014

would be easy to tell. The differences in policies between Liberals and republicans stand out like a beacon. But if there were any of the covert agent or paid-to-post operatives posting here, they are a real waste of time and money, cause they can't change anyone's mind. People here on DU are very aware of political moves, policies and politicians.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
166. I'd look for someone who is extremely well organized in his/her posts and never says
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:50 AM
Feb 2014

a critical or "underground" type of thing about our President.

Perhaps someone who posits him- or herself as absolutely and by far more sensible than anyone else on DU.

I can think of at least one person who fits that profile very well. This one combines infiltration and propaganda functions. But what do I know. I'm just guessing.

One thing is certain, a government infiltrator would never agree to criticize the President. would attempt to place him- herself in a psychological position of leader and never express an original idea. I can think of one who fits perfectly.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
171. Holy fucking shit!!11!
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:33 AM
Feb 2014

You've caught them! This is really an EXPLOSIVE revelation!

You've discovered a paid govt operative on the DU!

This is definitely something skinner and the admins should know about.

I'd shoot them an email ASAP.

Well done!

Well. Fucking. Done.


JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
172. Glad you can appreciate.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:51 AM
Feb 2014

Someone who toes an ideological line is not to be trusted. It is normal to have a few opinions that diverge from those of the authorities.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
104. I wonder if the Administration pays the same if
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:18 PM
Feb 2014

all one does is keep posting the same inane graphic in various threads.

Any insight on that?

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
103. Here are a couple of very interesting paras from that Salon story:
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:15 PM
Feb 2014
Cass Sunstein has long been one of Barack Obama’s closest confidants. Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obama’s head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for “overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs.” In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-”independent” advocates to “cognitively infiltrate” online groups and websites — as well as other activist groups — which advocate views that Sunstein deems “false conspiracy theories” about the Government. This would be designed to increase citizens’ faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists. The paper’s abstract can be read, and the full paper downloaded, here.

Sunstein advocates that the Government’s stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into “chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups.” He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called “independent” credible voices to bolster the Government’s messaging (on the ground that those who don’t believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government). This program would target those advocating false “conspiracy theories,” which they define to mean: “an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role.” Sunstein’s 2008 paper was flagged by this blogger, and then amplified in an excellent report by Raw Story‘s Daniel Tencer.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
3. It's about time this piece of the horror story begins to get some exposure.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:39 AM
Feb 2014

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:14 AM - Edit history (2)

What is happening in messaging from our own government is unconscionable, malignant, and creepy as hell.

We've experienced massive betrayals by our government in recent years, but these sorts of revelations....mass spying; smear and disinformation; constant, orchestrated campaigns of manipulation aimed at citizens...

The relationship of the people to the US government has been fundamentally changed, and in a profound way. Perhaps we have not lived in a free country for some time now, but they have destroyed any remaining illusion of life in this country most of us were taught to believe was our own.

These are the tactics of a totalitarian state acting viciously against the interests of its own people, not something any of us should have to associate with the United States of America.

 

rusty fender

(3,428 posts)
42. But we must be grateful, at least, that we have a Dem
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:17 PM
Feb 2014

president, because it would be much, much worse if a Repuke was president.

Remember, always be grateful for the crumbs...

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
92. Woo, you said the same thiong as Greenwald, but...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:44 PM
Feb 2014

...you said it so much better:

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.

[font size=3]It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur.[/font] Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013


Thank You.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
198. No, thank *you.*
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:44 AM
Feb 2014

That means a lot, coming from you.

Finally, finally, this totalitarian garbage is getting some press. Let's hope it is just the beginning...

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
229. This is just what I see here when certain subjects come up
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:42 PM
Feb 2014

It makes it impossible to have the discussion because the thread gets sent off course by the same group of people.

 

frwrfpos

(517 posts)
107. this response is wrong.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:21 PM
Feb 2014

Everything that Obama and Congress and the courts and the police and the military do is to better and lift up the people of the US. I think the problem is you may not be clapping hard enough for fascism.

Also asking for extra porridge is a big no-no. Banks and the 1% come first here in this country

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
170. If you haven't read Greg Palast's Vulture's Picnic, you should.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:18 AM
Feb 2014

It exposes the corruption in both parties and the close links between the big corporations and the government.

There are differences between the Republicans and Democrats. Big ones. I prefer the Democrats, but there is disgusting corruption in both parties' leadership. And oddly enough, the same banks and corporations are involved in the corruption.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
169. True. Combine surveillance, record-keeping on every individual's whereabouts and activities
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:07 AM
Feb 2014

and propaganda and you have dictatorship of the worst kind, by the oligarchy in our case.

There is a book on the German experience during WWII, They Thought They Were Free.
Here is an excerpt:

“What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

“This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

“You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ‘expected to’ participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time.”

“Those,” I said, “are the words of my friend the baker. ‘One had no time to think. There was so much going on.’”

https://disinfo.com/2013/10/excerpt-thought-free-germans-1933-45-milton-mayer/

I know I will get flak for comparing our current surveillance and propaganda state to NAZI Germany. We don't have concentration camps. But there was far more to the NAZI state than concentration camps. Far more. I lived in Germany and Austria. When talking about the NAZI period, people would tell me that after all, Hitler did increase the employment rate. After the terrible inflation and then wide unemployment that followed WWI in Germany, the German people felt they were regaining national pride under Hitler. They were wrong. It is easy to be wrong, very wrong in a surveillance state with an effective propaganda arm.

And this information released so recently makes me feel more certain that I am correct in comparing our developing, still in the early stages, surveillance and propaganda state to NAZI Germany in the 1930s. In fact, a major Austrian, the Creditanstalt bank failed in 1931.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creditanstalt

The parallels are frightening.

We are not living in NAZI Germany -- yet, but we need to change our course if we want to avoid it.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
250. We don't have concentration camps
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:38 PM
Feb 2014

but we have 5% of the world's population but 25% of the world's population of prisoners. And honestly, what do we call secret prisons?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
254. You make a good point.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:47 PM
Feb 2014

Guantanamo -- practice for the future secret incarceration of Americans without trial and with secret evidence?

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
281. Maybe they'll just start treating us like email--
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 07:57 PM
Feb 2014

"re-routing" us to Poland or Bagram as they purportedly move us from one domestic prison to another…

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
5. They really are not that hard to spot. And of course, Anonymous confirmed that Glenn Greenwald
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:40 AM
Feb 2014

himself was a target of such a 'campaign'. It was classic proof of what many had already suspected, so there really IS no denying it.

We see the results of that 'security contract' right here on DU regarding Greenwald, almost to the word of what they were 'proposing' in their bid for a 'contract'. This SHOULD be illegal, but of course we have to be an actual Democracy in order for that to happen. There was a proposal from the few Dems left in Congress for an investigation in those tactics exposed by Anonymous, but so far, nothing has come of it.

Most people recognize the talking points, the smear campaigns against anyone who dares to oppose policies that are harmful to the people, but beneficial to the Corporations and Big Banks.

Wikileaks also release documents before the smear campaign against Assange, from a CIA memo planning how to 'discredit him'.

In the end it is up to the people. And the exposure of the tactics on a regular basis helps to counter their smear campaigns. I guess they are getting nervous and pretty desperate due to their failure to totally control information. But don't underestimate them, from the lates leaked Wikileaks Docs on the TPP they fully intend to control the Internet the same way they have controlled the Corporate Media.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
9. "This SHOULD be illegal, but of course we have to be an actual Democracy..."
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:34 AM
Feb 2014


This SHOULD be illegal, but of course we have to be an actual Democracy in order for that to happen.


This is not the country I was taught I lived in.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
13. Things are moving fast. The privatization of everything is nearly complete.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:00 AM
Feb 2014

They needed the 'left' to put the final nails in the coffin of what was once a Democratic society. And it appears they have succeeded, or have they? It would APPEAR that way from the comments we are now seeing supporting what no DEMOCRAT would ever have have supported just a few short year ago.

Certainly they panicked when OWS spread like wildfire across the country, exposing the deep opposition they probably thought they had suppressed to the change from Democracy to Corporate State. And in other parts of the world, Europe eg, where they installed Corporate candidates to implement their 'Austerity programs' stealing the sovereignty of once first World Nations, like Spain and Ireland, now under the thumb of the IMF and the World Bank.

The uprisings in France, Spain, the Indignados, Greece, brave but to no avail as their country was sold from underneath them to private 'investors'.

And here, where it is progressing as planned after they think they successfully crushed the opposition to their fascist policies.

And now, on to the Ukraine, where the IMF and the World Bank have quickly moved in to impose on that country, their draconian policies of Austerity after ousting their democratically elected government. We CANNOT HAVE ANY opposition to the final takeover of the world's resources.

I wonder why any democrat would support these coups, now happening at record speed in various parts of the world.

By next week, the Ukraine will most likely be enslaved to the World Bank and the IMF with a puppet government installed to make sure there are no more 'glitches' in the plans to control that country.

It's comforting in some ways to watch the consistency of it all play out. Devastating in terms of what it means for the future of the world's 'democracies' now beholden to Wall St. and its unauthorized World Bank and IMF.

They were clever, even we were fooled for a while, getting Dems on board after locking up Republican support for their egregious policies.

But nothing this destructive to so many people can last. And I think they know that, which is why to them, the people, not 'terrorists' are the enemy. Which is why they are spying on EVERYONE. They are paranoid, and they should be. History is not kind to such greedy, power hungry criminals.

Sorry Ukraine to see your country in the grip of the IMF now, and the World Bank. But that is what happens when you choose to remain blind to what is really going on.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
35. funny how you have zero criticism of the Ukrainian despot who ordered snipers to murder
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:14 AM
Feb 2014

protestors and stole billions of dollars from the people of Ukraine

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
56. if an army sniper suspects someone is a fascist, then it's okay to shoot them in the city street?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:21 PM
Feb 2014

welcome to DU.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
282. No, of course not.
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 08:03 PM
Feb 2014

But is someone is a suspected Taliban or AQ operative, it IS OK to blow them up in their home with a drone.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
284. True, we moslty just let the cops eliminate potential problems with their sidearms.
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 08:14 PM
Feb 2014

Once in a while they screw up & shoot a white person, though. But hey, that's just collateral damage.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
87. Funny you ignored everything and stuck to the talking point that is supposed to justify
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:57 PM
Feb 2014

the toppling of a democratically elected government rather than use the democratic process to do so.

Bush lied this country into a deadly, brutal war, his criminal policies harmed this country for decades and cost the lives of untold numbers of human beings. Not to mention the financial cost, the profiteering, the corruption. Yet, not one person suggested a coup d'etat rather than using the democratic process.

Why? That should be easy to answer for anyone who understands the difference between a civilized society and a violent, destabilized society where mob rule reigns. Because intelligent people are able to look beyond the immediate problems, bad as they may be, and understand that they will be far, far worse if democracy itself also becomes a victim of the anger, no matter how justified it may be.

It's interesting too that while you support this for other nations, you trashed a peaceful movement here USING the Democratic process to register the people's disagreement with policies and corruption and damaging policies.

I can only imagine your outrage if here, like the Ukraine which you support, protesters had emulated the Ukraine protesters and driven Bush's government from power eg. Would you have been in any way supportive of driving Bush out of office eg, in the same way? No, because you live here. I don't need to live in the Ukraine to know that what has just happened there will have dire consequences for them for decades to come.

An election would have taken care of their issues, IF the majority of the people actually agreed with the protesters. That we will never know.

Now as many of us expected, although I thought they might wait awhile, the IMF and the The World Bank have already moved in. The Ukraine can look forward to the same future as Greece, huge unemployment, the sale of their precious assets to 'pay their debts to the IMF'. Need I go on, every Progressive Democrat KNOWS what being under the thumb of the IMF means to a nation.

But they made their choice, many will come to regret it, after it is too late. Coups don't occur without consequences, most often not the kind expected in the heat of the moment.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
153. Your support for coup d'etats in democracies, is also noted. Btw, that 'duly noted' thing,
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:00 AM
Feb 2014

brings back old memories. Interesting ...

I get it! Violent protests where police officers are attacked physically in the Ukraine by Western Backed 'protesters' is just great for you.

Peaceful protests using the Democratic Process by movements like OWS are to be condemned.

I'm confused, because airc, you were just outraged by reports of a few broken windows, done by groups who were not part of OWS, but which you and the Faux contingency tried to attach to OWS, were just AWFUL!! And I can only imagine your horror if the OWS protesters had attacked the police!!

Lol, I love these conversations, so much is revealed.



Here's the deal, inconsistencies like this result in a huge lack of credibility.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
160. How many dead protestors in the US vs Ukraine?
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:02 AM
Feb 2014

This is a sad reminder that some on the left cheered for the tanks in Hungary.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
162. You aren't very fond of the 'left' are you?
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:29 AM
Feb 2014

How many injured cops in the US vs Ukraine?

You were just horrified by a few broken windows, such violence from OWS who didn't have a 'goal', lol!

There were two Iraq Veterans who nearly lost their lives after being beaten nearly to death and shot at by our 'civilian' police here. That was fine by many on the Right, those 'lefties' deserved it, didn't they?

Not a word of condemnation from you for all the brutality suffered by those protesters who were unarmed, peaceful and exercising a right they THOUGHT they had.

Like I said, consistency is everything, if you want any kind of credibility.

And what does Budapest have to do with anyone here? Most here were not even alive at the time, so what's your point?

Oh I get it, that typical attack on the left, the old 'commie' thing we hear so much from limbaugh and faux and it's so old even the ditto heads are bored with it by now. Shame, although no surprise, to see that here.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
163. Not an attack on the left, just those who embrace authoritarianism
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:37 AM
Feb 2014

when it's their team (Putin, Castro, Maduro, Yanukovych) doing the oppressing.

Yanukovych ordered the murder if his political opponents and stole billions of dollars from his own people. He was swept out because he tried to make himself a dictator. Obviously, since he's Putin's lap dog, you support him.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
167. Like I said, not very fond of the Left, and you provide more of the same old 'commie'
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:58 AM
Feb 2014

diatribe from Limbaugh just to prove me right. We loved Saddam too, or did you forget? And Osama Bin Laden. Well, according to Limbaugh, the main propagandist.

Nothing ever though to say about the Right I've noticed. Have you ever attacked the Right the way you attack the Left? I don't recall?

Me, I despise Right Winger stupidity like Limbaugh and his ridiculous Ditto Heads imitating his 'commie' attacks, so old, so irrelevant in today's world, still living in the past, trying to dig up ANYTHING to attack the Left with.

Carry on, I'm rather enjoying this. It's so familiar, although not so much here on DU.

I'm sure everyone here, democrats, lefties, will remember the old 'you love Saddam' routine from the Faux contingency. The ditto heads loved it.

Of course the propagandists knew it was lie, they knew that the Left was opposed to the lies being told that would lead us into war, but that is their tactic, deliberately misinterpret the motives, and then feed the propaganda to the morons who lap it up, thinking it makes them look intelligent. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

I used to have so much fun with them. It was probably cruel of me. Can't say I'm sorry, though. They deserved it.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
173. Have you read Vultures' Picnic by Greg Palast. It lays out some of the interesting details
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:59 AM
Feb 2014

that support the general factual concepts you just laid forth. I think you might have fun with it. It is written in a roman noir or Humphrey Bogart style.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
22. I was going to quote the same. It's certainly quote worthy.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:21 AM
Feb 2014

No, it is not the same country. The nation has been changed, fundamentally. IMHO, that is why they LIHOP. Because they wanted to change the nation, to give corporations more hand (Seinfeld reference).

"They" really do not want to relinquish their new found power. They would have us believe that they love the nation so much that they must change it, fundamentally, until it is no longer the same nation. That's asking us to swallow a lot of bull.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
34. then name names. if you have identified government agents posting at DU
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:13 AM
Feb 2014

it's your duty to identify them so that they don't violate other people's rights

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
54. If the poster were to name name's.....
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:15 PM
Feb 2014

and say for example, they named yours, wouldn't you then have recourse for getting their posts hidden and having them possibly banned? Just wondering as you often ask this same question, especially to long term DU'ers that post interesting content.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
174. Then don't invite naming names.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:07 AM
Feb 2014

Because when someone invites another DUer to do something (like naming names) when the first DUer knows that will get the one who names names in trouble, it's called inciting a DUer to doing something stupid. It is not consistent with posting on an open discussion board. It is consistent with trying to shut off the exchange of ideas rather than promote it.

Please.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
259. As much as it bothers me to say it
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:57 PM
Feb 2014

There is a certain contingent that is actively trying to get people to mess up so that they will get their posts hidden or get banned. You have to be extremely careful when engaging with those particular posters because they will hit you with both barrels in an effort to make you upset.

And no, it isn't consistent with just posting - it is exactly attempting to disruption. I don't know if it is a coordinated thing, I just know it is annoying as hell to try to have a conversation with all of that chatter introduced.

mrdmk

(2,943 posts)
287. Not the first time, Skinner admitted to this during the transition from DU2 to DU3
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:20 PM
Feb 2014

It was ugly then, just as it is ugly now...

BuelahWitch

(9,083 posts)
61. "Call outs" used to be against the rules on DU
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:28 PM
Feb 2014

The TOS don't specifically say that anymore, but I doubt it's still a good idea. If you've been here for any period of time you should know this. Or maybe you do.

BuelahWitch

(9,083 posts)
65. This website is privately owned
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:32 PM
Feb 2014

And as such we abide by their rules if we want to stay here. But then, you probably know that too.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
76. So you'd rather "stay here" than fight the security state deploying govt agents to post on DU?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:55 PM
Feb 2014

Talk about fighting for what you believe in!

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
67. They don't need government agents on the internet. All they need are willing participants
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:34 PM
Feb 2014

to feed the propaganda to, as they were proposing with Greenwald eg, as many forums as possible counting on some picking it up for FREE, they don't even have to pay anyone, and repeating the smears for them.

How you recognize that a smear campaign is going on, is easy, always has been. People who are genuine use their own words, they don't use talking points. We learned to recognize the talking points. And of course after reading the proposed smear campaign contract on Greenwald it explained why we were suddenly seeing attacks on him as a person. I am guessing that most who join in are not being paid, just not terribly liberal in their views and more than willing to have phrases and words to use to attack Liberals with. It's not that hard, really.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
69. Greenwald's personality is really besides the point.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:36 PM
Feb 2014

what matters is getting reform legislation passed

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
72. Of course, that is the reason why we need journalists like Greenwald and
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:44 PM
Feb 2014

Jeremy Scahill, Matt Taibi, Greg Palast and of course why we need Whistle Blowers, so that the people are informed of what their government is doing in their name and when there is wrongdoing and it is exposed, it should lead to reform legislation being passed, NOT to the punishment of Whistle Blowers or to smear campaigns against journalists. But that is where we are now, so it's imperative to support those willing to risk being targeted for telling the truth.

questionseverything

(9,773 posts)
94. some are agents, some are that agents "personas"
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:51 PM
Feb 2014
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8354

they have programs that can handle up to 100 personas easily...now wether the agent can handle the program is different story

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
41. The thing about RWers is that they are never conscious enough to realize how transparent
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:02 PM
Feb 2014

and obvious they are to the left.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
46. +1 & LOL.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:17 PM
Feb 2014

I swear you can hear them squirming. Suddenly the beltway is a little tight, a little less than comfortable for them than it was before.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
134. Who needs any list? I go by the talking points, not the messengers.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:27 PM
Feb 2014

Iow, it is easy to see the talking points, surely you too can recognize them when you see them? Btw, why you think anyone would 'keep a list'? Liberals generally deal with smears and lies DIRECTLY when they encounter them. I know this makes it hard for them to spread the lies, but then that's OUR job, isn't it, as Liberals, to make sure the TRUTH and the FACTS get through all the propaganda.

At least that is what we did during the Bush era and eventually it did get through, because we refused to allow lies about Liberal Journalists and good Democrats to stand without challenge.

And by 2008, all the propaganda they tried to push with their talking points and smear campaigns, against Liberal Journalists, like Glenn Greenwald eg, and Liberal Dems could not get them reelected.

THAT is why it is important to recognize the 'campaigns against those who tell the truth'. I could not care LESS about the individuals, don't know them, don't care who they are, but if talking points and smears are in front of me, I will do what I always did. What we all always did.

I mean be honest, when you see confirmation of a an actual Corporate Contract being bidden on by a Security Contractor on a BLOGGER, and you get to read the tactics in their own words, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that the contract is in place regarding Glenn Greenwald, does it? Which is why it has failed. We KNOW where all the attacks on him are coming from. Thanks to Anonymous for that one.

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
145. Upton Sinclair 1935
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:38 PM
Feb 2014

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
147. Lol, I like that quote ...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:48 PM
Feb 2014

But I would add, 'unless he is a person of integrity and honor, like Snowden eg and Ellsberg and Drake, but those are rare people.

dougolat

(716 posts)
11. Busted, but no repercussions; like O'keefe and the Acorn fiasco...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:47 AM
Feb 2014

When the dishonesty was exposed, not even the Congressional Democrats who had been stampeded insisted on prosecuting O'keefe or re-funding Acorn. Too embarrassed, perhaps.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
95. Effective.... only because the Democratic Party Leadership...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:52 PM
Feb 2014

...runs and hides from these kinds of attacks.
They ran away from ACORN, Shirley Sherrod, and Van Jones so fast they left a blur....
because of accusations by Brietbart and the Tea Party.

Odd that they would circle the wagons to protect a Know LIAR, Republican, and International Laughing stock like Clapper (NSA Liar),
when they couldn't run away and hide fast enough when Acorn or Van Jones were attacked.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
96. Exactly.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:08 PM
Feb 2014

These "dirty tricks" illustrate just how dysfunctional the nation has become. I could have cried for Shirley Sherrod. And ACORN was providing a vital service. They are validating the woo. Tell me they didn't allow 911 when they could have stopped it anytime along the line.

Tumbulu

(6,384 posts)
7. Well there are a few obvious ones
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:17 AM
Feb 2014

on this site regularly and I cannot understand why the moderators allow it. Oh yes, they got rid of moderators.....

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
176. That's what is setting off the NSA's efforts to do surveillance and propagandize.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:17 AM
Feb 2014

Suddenly, with the internet we all have our own personal presses. That is way beyond the free press that the American political establishment wants. In its view, too much free press is not a good thing. Ha! Too late. The internet is here.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
12. keep this pinned to the top of page 1
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:55 AM
Feb 2014

kick.
kick.
kick.
How many times have I said this is gonna come out?
kick.
ground zero battleground for truth and justice, the soul of a country besieged.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
14. It is coming out, but watch out for the 'explainers' who should be along anytime now.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:21 AM
Feb 2014

And don't forget, Greenwald and Snowden are 'traitors', according to the smear campaign.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
15. We see the results of their work here every day, and it's quite obvious.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:26 AM
Feb 2014

My personal favorite was the "he's got boxes in his garage/had a stripper girlfriend/had a ballerina girlfriend and left her all alone" lines that were spewed out, rapid fire, when they were desperately, stupidly, fumbling all over each other like Keystone Cops to discredit Snowden early on.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
28. Yeah, totally ridiculous
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:29 AM
Feb 2014

anyone who claims that has got to have another agenda and is only trying to marginalize those who do not agree with them, in fact they probably date strippers and keep boxes in their garage, in other words, a total weirdo, not to be trusted, probably a closet teapublicanjihadist who hates women.



 

randome

(34,845 posts)
40. So you think groups like Anonymous should be free to attack the Internet whenever they wish.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:40 AM
Feb 2014

Without fear of reprisal because...hey, they say they're the good guys! As for any of the rest, there is no evidence this type of infiltration is being used on any other than legitimate targets other than the amorphous claims in the article.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)
[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
44. That is an excellent question. About time someone asked it.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:39 PM
Feb 2014

Funny how the 'get scared quick' articles like this don't even address it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

questionseverything

(9,773 posts)
93. according to the original leaks
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:45 PM
Feb 2014

the dod thinks it is acceptable to use on reporters

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8354

The plan also involved creating "two fake insider personas", one at VR and another at the unrelated Change To Win organization, which had employed a coalition of union groups to create a non-profit campaign, some months after VR's, called U.S. Chamber Watch. The plan presented by Team Themis, as the three security firms called themselves, would then use one of the "fake personas" as "leverage to discredit the other while confirming the legitimacy of the second" in hopes of publicizing the fraudulent appearance of some sort of "conspiracy" between the various progressive organizations in order to somehow discredit them.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
53. So are we ato assume that the gov't the the big bad dog in this
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:08 PM
Feb 2014

and that Greewald, Koch, Fox, Beck, and any other hack doesn't hire a fleet of people to do the same type of character defamation? The outrage seems quite stupid in this case without invoking the bigger picture.

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
150. typical false equivalence
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:58 PM
Feb 2014

You seriously are accusing Greenwald of using these tactics of hiring contractors to defame his critics?

DERP WHAT A DRAMATIC TURNABOUT! I UNDERESTIMATED HIS NEFARIOUS GENIUS!!!!

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
194. of course I'm stating the possibility exists....did you not read it properly?
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:22 AM
Feb 2014

are you without any shadow of a doubt, sure Greenwald doesn't do that?

The derp is all in your court, you can't make up shit and pretend that it's a bigger truth than my speculation. Good god, where did you crawl out from?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
178. Koch, Fox and Beck maybe. But Greenwald? You way overestimate or underestimate him.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:03 AM
Feb 2014

Depending on your viewpoint. There is no way Greenwald could hire people to do character defamation. Takes a lot of money. He isn't poor, I would assume. But that rich? No way.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
197. THERE IS ALWAYS people out there willing to volunteer for their precious cause
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:39 AM
Feb 2014

I don't think there is any reason to believe that the character assasinations doesn't occur from every side of every perspective of every political hot button.

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
201. Yes Greenwald has hired HBGary to infiltrate forums and post on his behalf
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:56 AM
Feb 2014


Poor General Clapper! under constant attack from mean old Glennie Greenwald and his cyber minions that he has clearly hired.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
177. Depending on how it is done and for what purpose, it could be fraud, defamation (in the case
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:01 AM
Feb 2014

of making statements that destroy reputations unfairly which is apparently part of the plan) or libel. It could conceivably be determined to be a violation of the right of freedom of association guaranteed in the First Amendment. Not all of this sort of thing could violate the freedom of association, but if taken to an extreme, it could.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
80. No,
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:12 PM
Feb 2014

"Are you saying these documents are fake, and the government isn't actually doing this? "

...I'm saying it's typical Greenwald to take cyber warfare information and turn it into a silly charge that attempts to discredit criticism of anyone who doesn't buy his bullshit.

It's not my interpretation. Look up thread. I've seen this piece posted elsewhere, and the reaction by some is very similar.

If I call you a "hack" and a "sock puppet," does that mean I'm right and you're simply a tool?

When he attacks MSNBC and Rachel Maddow, who is he working for?



ProSense

(116,464 posts)
83. LOL!
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:24 PM
Feb 2014

You know what keeps me laughing?

The desperation of the Greenwald hi-fivers is something to behold.





JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
190. Do you think that any of the people posting on DU get paid to do it?
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:49 AM
Feb 2014

Why wouldn't they admit it if they were?

Do you think that someone paid to post on DU, say by the government or someone in the Obama campaign or some similar group would feel ashamed or embarrassed by what he/she was doing?

Or do you think they would be proud to be doing it and let other DUers know about what they were doing?

Do you think that it might be very easy for regulars on DU to figure out who might be paid to post here?

Don't you think that people who always perfectly take the side of the government might be suspected by other DUers of being paid shills?

What is your opinion on the substance of the OP?

As I wrote below, I think one indication that someone might be paid to take a particular position would be that the person always followed a particular party line.

I ask that because I have been paid to write during my write -- grant requests and other things -- so I know what it is like to write in a voice and for a purpose that is not personal to you.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
140. Indeed. I am saying that the U.S. government (including the NSA) isn't actually doing this.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:07 PM
Feb 2014

Let's see if you have any clue at all about what you're talking about.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
143. So... Greenwald just made those documents up?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:20 PM
Feb 2014

Or is this the part where you tell me GCHQ is in Britain, so it doesn't matter?

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
154. You actualy will *acknowledge* a fact?
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:18 AM
Feb 2014

I'm flabbergasted!

Maybe it was my pointing it out, but your tiny inkling of understanding that the United States had nothing to do with this at all makes me feel almost hopeful that you may be able to speak rationally on things.

Yes, indeed. Greenwald's smarmy agitprop is actually partially correct: governments can cause people harm! In fact, as people in the Ukraine, Syria, Venezuela, and Uganda can attest, it usually goes further than to scare a bunch of script-kiddie "hacktivists" away from a site they set up to coordinate their wire-fraud and other assorted computer-related felonies. Personally, I would prefer for most of them to be caught and thrown in jail for their crimes, but governments can be lenient as well. And Great Britain likely felt the need to only be proportional to the damage "Anonymous" inflicted.

No, the interesting thing to note, Marr, is what's not being done. Greenwald clearly has a chubby for harming the U.S. But of late, he's released basically nothing the NSA was responsible for. Last week, it was that the Australians had intercepted some communication between the Indonesians and a U.S. Law Firm. This week, it's the British engaged in some mostly harmless "turnabout is fair play" on the DDOSing Anonymous script kiddies. If there were some amazing anti-American bombshell beyond the known-since-2005 pin register stuff, he would have released it by now. But he hasn't. So one has to conclude that he doesn't have anything more.

Oh, I'm sure there will be ever more desperate releases. Maybe some breathless expose that Brazil's ABIN uncovered (they openly spy on bikini clad girls walking on their beaches!!11!!1!). But all the real stuff has played out. So all they have is foreign stuff which only serves to convince the haters - who can't read, and will blame the NSA and U.S.

I expect to make his millions of dollars, Greenwald will be releasing this kind of stuff for some time.

Well, all except anything that makes the FSB look bad (no matter how truly awful it is). Greenwald and Snowden are anti-American. Not anti-Russian. And they both know who Snowden's real master is now.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
158. Look, if this kind of diversionary dissembling is all you're going to offer...
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:48 AM
Feb 2014

...just let me know now and I won't waste any more time with you.

The GCHQ and the NSA have a long, well-known history of working together closely. Several big stories came out just last year on precisely that topic. The documents in question were specifically presented to the NSA by the GCHQ.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
179. The problem with taking any side for or against Anonymous is that the moniker
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:09 AM
Feb 2014

Anonymous can be anyone with any intention, any point of view. There isn't just one anonymous or even one anonymous group. I believe I recall an instance in which a person claiming to be anonymous posted information about a rape which turned out to be true. That particular anonymous helped to bring an injustice to light. That was good. When people use the name anonymous to hide crimes, that is bad. So it is rather absurd to talk about attacking, condemning or condoning anonymous. It depends on what that particular anonymous is doing.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
209. And this is a quite excellent post that truly explains Greenwald. This is merely a ramp up to the
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:58 PM
Feb 2014

Snowden book he will release...a book already scooped by Luke Harding's Snowden book.

Greenwald's book is due out on March 25th....best to inoculate oneself from the criticism beforehand.

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
202. I made no such attempt to associate Greenwald with a screaming picture of Alex Jones. You did that.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:57 AM
Feb 2014

so right back at you.

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
240. Here's a clue.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:11 PM
Feb 2014

Why would I consider it a smear to associate Greenwald who is a journalist with a crypto-fascist money grubbing conspiracy peddler?
Naturally because Alex Jones and Greenwald are my heroes? That's the conclusion a smear merchant would make.

You: "Hey dawg, I heard you like smears by association so I added another smear by association to your smear-by-association-call-out subthread."

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
244. Lol, right on cue. Am I psychic or what? I love it when I make predictions and they arrive, right
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:25 PM
Feb 2014

on cue.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,325 posts)
246. Quick! Tell us how many US households watch the Kremlin sponsored Russia Today?
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:34 PM
Feb 2014

I'm elated that you finally made a statement that, shall we say, was "correct"?


sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
262. I haven't changed. Remember when Dems were OUTRAGED over Bush spying on the American people??
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:12 PM
Feb 2014

This Democrat is STILL outraged over the Government spying on the American people. How about you? You haven't said.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
264. Spying on the American People is a crime. Which is why Dems were so outraged
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:49 PM
Feb 2014

when Bush was found to be breaking the law. We were even more outraged, remember. when Congress, rather than prosecuting the criminals, changed the law to protect them.

You needn't worry about me changing, I am consistent on expecting our government to take their oaths of office seriously and not to violate them regarding 'defending and protecting the Constitution of the US'.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
266. Then you agree NOW with the Government spying on the American people.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:07 PM
Feb 2014

Did you agree with it when Bush as caught doing it? I didn't and I don't now, which I already said and which you call 'wrong'. So thanks for finally answering.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
268. They are alllll up in this thread, aren't they? As usual
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:11 PM
Feb 2014

Spouting utter nonsense (again, As Usual) and chasing folks around as if anyone is even REMOTELY interested in their opinions.

And as for that post you linked to... All you can do is just shake your head.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
276. It's unfortunate that people such as myself who know very little about these topics
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 05:45 PM
Feb 2014

It's unfortunate that people such as myself who know very little about these topics, have to wade through sub-literate, half-educated, idiotic posts like yours which contain nothing but irrational emotion to find the few gems of actual substance.

No doubt, you'll certainly rationalize it as something other than what it is, or attempt to justify its very existence, but for all intents and purposes, yours is a petulant, less-than-clever, half-witted waste of people's time.

(insert rationalization here-- so as to feel more clever that you actually come across as...)

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
127. When they ignore you ... you win.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:59 PM
Feb 2014

You get the last word. And those who lurk have no idea why they don't respond to you, other than they can't refute you.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
180. I don't have anyone on ignore. I am here to exchange information, ideas and points of view,
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:11 AM
Feb 2014

not to ignore ideas, information and points of view I don't agree with.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
121. The fact that the same paranoid clueless crowd lap up these types of threads is proof they wouldn't
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:36 PM
Feb 2014

know a genuine conspiracy if it came up and slapped them across the face with a dirty sock.

These threads pop up every few months and the fringers here pant with their delusions that they are "outing some conspiracy" of "covert agents" that post on DU. It would be funny if it wasn't so incredibly sad and dumb.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
122. Are you saying you think the documents Greenwald cited are fakes?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:38 PM
Feb 2014

Otherwise, I don't see how the conspiracy is deniable.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
123. I will say the same thing to you that I say every single time you respond to me despite REPEATED
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:41 PM
Feb 2014

requests for you to leave me alone.

PUT ME ON IGNORE. If you think that you are going to continue to stalk and harass me, I'd say that you are even more disturbed and clueless than you appear to be.

Edit: TWO MINUTES my post sat there before you just simply HAD to respond to it, huh? Is this a game to you?? Keep playing it. I will happily do my part to see you removed from this web site. The sooner you realize I have nothing to say to you and never will, the sooner you can stop wasting everybody's time.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
125. In other words, you haven't got an answer.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:46 PM
Feb 2014

Just as aside, you are posting on a public message board. People will respond to you, particularly when you make unsupportable statements.

For the thousandth time, I'm not going to help you by putting you on ignore-- and I'd actually say that your repeated, insult-laden demands for such (along with your baseless accusations of stalking) are what is approaching harassment.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
126. You have been asked REPEATEDLY to leave me alone. You refuse for reasons only you understand
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:49 PM
Feb 2014

So if you refuse, I will continue to remind you. The ONLY response you will get from me is the same -- PUT ME ON IGNORE.

I will NOT answer any of your stupid assed and meaningless questions. I will not read your posts. I don't give a damn what you think say or feel about anything. Your stalking has been noted by this entire board and if you're happy looking like a deranged psychopath then that is EXACTLY how I'm going to treat you.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
128. I will respond to anyone I choose.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:02 PM
Feb 2014

You may, of course, put me on ignore if you find me so deplorable. What you may not do is make baseless accusations of stalking and personal insults. What's more, your admission above of being determined to get me banned from this forum casts those accusations in a decidedly suspicious light.

Anyway, thank you for your non-answer on the subject the documents cited in Greenwald's article. I have to assume that you don't deny their authenticity, and that's why you won't support your previous statement.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
136. You could ask me what the time was and my answer would still be the same
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:31 PM
Feb 2014

PUT ME ON IGNORE. Do not respond to me.

YOU are the one that looks bad in every single one of these exchanges. It's been well established that you goad like this because that's the only way to get someone to respond to you. As your numerous alerts on my posts demanding that you stop following me around have shown (and you can see how well those alerts have worked by my 0% hide rating), you look like the bully and stalker in these exchanges because that is precisely what you are.

I will NOT respond to your posts. My answer to you REGARDLESS OF THE QUESTION will always be the same --Put me on ignore. Or leave me the bloody hell alone. Either one works for me.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
137. Again, thank you for your non-answer on the subject of the authenticity of Greenwald's
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:38 PM
Feb 2014

cited documents. I'm glad you're not making a such a silly denial.

Have a nice evening.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
138. Spin it as desperately and stupidly as you'd like
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:47 PM
Feb 2014

Public board or not, your attention is intrusive and unwanted. And just like in ANY public place, people have the right to ask abusive nuisances to leave them alone. The fact that you think that my asking you to stop bothering ME is the "real harassment" is definitely indicative of some truly tragic "thinking" and explains alot. It really does explain alot.

Soon the realization that this is the ONLY response you are ever going to get me from on any topic at any time has got to sink in.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
142. Here's a thought-- don't respond.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:19 PM
Feb 2014

Or better yet, put me on ignore.

Anyway, I'm glad you aren't defending your previous statement about paranoia. It would've been pretty silly.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
155. Yet ANOTHER request to you to Leave Me Alone. Yet ANOTHER jury verdict that did not go your way
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:21 AM
Feb 2014

0-6 this time. Like I said, at some point you are going to get the message one way or another.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
156. Are you accusing me of alerting on you?
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:31 AM
Feb 2014

First, I'm not the one trying to get someone banned-- that's you.

Second, as I've told you repeatedly, I'm not going to ignore you. Look up a few posts at JoePhilly's post #127. That's one of the reasons I'm not going to put you on ignore, and I've little doubt it's one of the reasons you want me to.

Third, I didn't alert on your post, and if you're going to accuse others of being paranoid, you might want to check these bizarre, from-the-hip accusations.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
157. I am not trying to get you banned. I don't give a damn about anything that you say
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:37 AM
Feb 2014

And if you never posted here again, I am 100% sure I wouldn't even notice. I am trying to get you to STOP RESPONDING TO ME and to LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE.

THAT is what I am trying to do. You are actually squatting in this thread making yourself look even worse than usual for what?? To prove that you are going to respond to someone who has absolutely no interest in your points, your questions, your thoughts or positions and has taken every single opportunity they can find to tell you that?

And the fact that you cannot see how incredibly, desperately pathetic that makes you look is PRECISELY one of the many, many, MANY reasons I am asking you AGAIN to leave me alone.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
159. Actually, at this point I'm just wondering if you're constitutionally capable
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:53 AM
Feb 2014

of allowing someone else the last word.

By the way, your admission that you wouldn't even notice if I stopped posting (which I completely believe since the last exchange I recall with you was months ago), kind of makes your earlier accusations of "stalking" seem a bit disingenuous.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
161. The only thing "disingenuous" is you trying to pretend that you have anything intelligent to say
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:11 AM
Feb 2014

The amount of times I have asked you to leave me alone show more than anything the truth of the matter which is that you started this stupid little game, you CONTINUE to play it despite repeated requests to stop and have been playing it for a long time.

The person who refuses to stop stalking me, openly acknowledges that they won't leave me alone despite me having asked them (by this count) about ten times over less than a year to do so is is actually saying that my accusations of stalking are "disingenuous." I'd laugh at this shit if it wasn't so stupid, unnecessary and indicative of something that seems to be quite serious on your part. And the jury comments from all the times I've been alerted on show that more and more people are seeing you. That is not something that you should want to happen. People like you do best under the radar.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
164. More paranoid accusations.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:39 AM
Feb 2014

Jesus Christ, you're boring.

It's clear to me now that you have nothing really to say beyond silly insults and loony accusations. As a kindness to the rest of the forum, I will stop responding to your insults now, and cease providing you a platform. Enjoy the last word.

Good night.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
269. So "boring" that you WILL NOT leave me the hell alone
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:15 PM
Feb 2014

And you could have "spared" all of us and done your "kindness" of not responding to me the first 20 damn times I asked you to do so. Your behavior is so unhinged and devoid of logic that I honestly have NO idea what you seek to gain from all of this. The only thing that's come from all of this is that more folks have seen exactly the type of person you are.

You make no sense. And that is the last word on any of this or so I desperately hope.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
295. Wow. Not needless, a week late and remarkably pitiful in the least either.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:52 AM
Mar 2014

Like I said, you need to worry about your own behavior. You're beyond embarrassing yourself.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
296. Just pointing out your hypocrisy.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:57 AM
Mar 2014

Since you're so concerned about rude and insulting posts I was sure you would want yours pointed out to you so you can catch yourself next time.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
297. Your own hypocricy (not to mention obvious boredom) should be more than enough to keep you
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:04 AM
Mar 2014

occupied.

You are making such a spectacle of yourself. And for absolutely no reason whatsoever. I'm loving it.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
129. Your post #15 is pretty clear.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:03 PM
Feb 2014

You think DU is over run by government agents.

I'm betting you have a list.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
131. Did I say that?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:09 PM
Feb 2014

I said the results of their work are clear here every day.

If you're asking for my opinion, I think certain narratives are advanced on blogs and forums by paid posters, yes. The article posted in the OP makes that a pretty safe assumption.

I certainly think those narratives find their way here-- whether they're posted by actual paid posters directly, or just people who read them elsewhere and were inclined to repeat them of their own accord, I cannot say.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
132. See, that's how I see some of the disgruntled left OPs here.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:20 PM
Feb 2014

Are they agents of the GOP, endlessly complaining about how terrible Democrats are, working to get Democratic voters to give up and stay home.

Or, are they just regular folks who fall for that tactic when used in other media outlets, who then repeat it on DU unaware that they are being used by the GOP to reduce turnout?

I cannot say.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
133. It's a reasonable thing to wonder.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:25 PM
Feb 2014

On the other hand, the documents posted in the OP's article pretty much prove that one sort exists, while the other is just idle speculation.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
182. The other one is not just idle speculation. The article on another link above
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:22 AM
Feb 2014

discusses the propagandizing by the government very clearly.

And many on DU notice a few never waivering and always positive reciters of propaganda and talking points for the president.

A normal Democrat supports the president on some policies and not on others. That is normal.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
181. This is the Democratic Underground. It is for opinions of different kinds. We can't learn
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:19 AM
Feb 2014

anything unless we communicate with each other about issues and try to understand each other.

The Democratic Underground is for people who identify strongly as Democrats but don't necessarily agree with everything that the present leadership of the Democratic Party does or says. We would not be "underground" if we were part of the mainstream, overground crowd.

Someone who is mainstream Democratic all the way, 100% can post on many other websites including maybe the one associated with the Obama White House.

Here, we are underground, trying to talk not only about the great things done by Obama but also about the things he could do much better. One of those things is to end most of the surveillance and all of the propaganda. And while he is at it, he should call for the passage of a constitutional amendment that overturns Citizens United.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,325 posts)
195. They are so fuckin' pathetic, I can't help but scoff at 'em. They don't even know they're being....
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:31 AM
Feb 2014

used to increase GG's wealth, and divert attention away from the issues like women's rights, voter rights, minority rights, access to healthcare, affordable housing that they used to CLAIM to care about. There's definitely been an infiltration, and it ain't who they think.

Bobbie Jo

(14,341 posts)
223. Exactly, Tarheel
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:20 PM
Feb 2014

I would love to see some clarification from Admin, as how they define "kooks and crackpots" here:

Don't be a wingnut (right-wing or extreme-fringe).

Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here. Neither are certain extreme-fringe left-wingers, including advocates of violent political/social change, hard-line communists, terrorist-apologists, America-haters, kooks, crackpots, LaRouchies, and the like.


Tarheel_Dem

(31,325 posts)
232. I have my own definition, but the "Paulites" are here, and they boast about "stoking it up".
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:56 PM
Feb 2014

The hands-off approach has definitely allowed a whole lotta wiggle room where the TOS are concerned.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,325 posts)
245. Kudos to Sibel Edmonds. She is persistent, and she's not letting up. "Checkbook Journalism"....
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:32 PM
Feb 2014

is a rich man's game. GG is rich, and getting richer because he has government secrets that belong to all of us, and he's out making billion dollar deals with the 1% to increase his own wealth and notoriety. He was a scheister hack lawyer, and a dishonest one at that. Fuck him.

"NSA reporter Glenn Greenwald partners with billionaire eBay founder for new venture"



Pierre Omidyar

You know, some time ago GG openly ruminated about some unnamed billionaire running for POTUS, who wouldn't need financial support from either of the two major parties. It can't be his new financial backer, who's a French born Iranian-American. And if DU is still a partisan board, then GG and his followers should be treated like any other opposition political group.



 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
70. This post deserves Greatest post status...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:37 PM
Feb 2014

alongside Octafish's "Anatomy of a Deep State". The larger picture is now being given lots of daylight. We, the people, are being duped, spied upon and manipulated by our own government. The subject should not be up for debate anymore. The first look link should be recommended reading for all DU'ers now and in the future.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
85. it is THE story of THIS DECADE
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:39 PM
Feb 2014

following on the Crimes of the Century that the Bush Administration was.
and that was no small time Republican operation.
our entire government and military are at fault.
the "media", particularly the corporate culture that buys the media silence.
this is about as big a deal in modern American history as we will live to see.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
101. Deserves Greatest Page...and lots of daylight...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:58 PM
Feb 2014

..and there are people here recoiling and writhing from the rays of the Sunlight.
The Bright Sunlight shines right through them,
and makes them soooo transparent.

hunter

(38,590 posts)
73. So far as reputation, I do not respect big money.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:46 PM
Feb 2014

For that I must thank my religiously insane mom.

When I was a kid our family would get kicked out of churches. Literally. Big burly bouncers in the foyers.

If what God told my mom differed from what the current church told my mom, well you know who we followed. My mom's God won.

We ended up Quakers. My mom could say what God had told her, people would listen respectfully, and then everyone moved on peacefully...

That sort of thing didn't go over so well with the Catholic church or the Jehovah's Witnesses.

MineralMan

(146,627 posts)
84. After reading the complete article, it occurs to me that all
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:25 PM
Feb 2014

of this is standard agitprop strategy, and has been used for just about forever. Discrediting, splitting, infiltration, and reputation destruction have always been standard techniques.

Some nice infographics, though, describing the process, assuming people don't already understand it.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
135. I think that's the point. Not all are so well read as You and I and others who
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:30 PM
Feb 2014

aren't as old and experienced in the Church Committee, Watergate, Spying on Civil Rights Workers in the 60's, J. Edgar Hoover and more.

So...I think it's a refresher course but also reveals Spying on Steroids.

Old News for You and I....but, that it hasn't ended but only grown with Internet Capabilities does make it "New News for the Newbies."

Just saying....

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
184. It is incompatible with democracy to have the government doing it.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:29 AM
Feb 2014

It is sickening. It is OK if the people in the government on their own time and not in their official capacity propagandize, but they need to a) not do the actual mechanical work like GOTV, etc. of party politics on the time they are paid to govern, and b) they should not hire people to propagandize if the people doing the propagandizing are pretending to be unassociated with the government. If people do not state that they are being paid, they are lying by omission, misleading or you could say defrauding other participants on the internet. It makes the administration that pays for that sort of political ad placement look really sleazy once they are found out. That is what causes distrust in the government.

 

fascisthunter

(29,381 posts)
89. Well, Well, Well... most kinda Knew Something Was Up!
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:18 PM
Feb 2014

Read the comments after the article...WOW! This is a massive problem.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
91. woo me with science.... said the same thing, but so much better:
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:41 PM
Feb 2014
The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.

[font size=3]It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur.[/font] Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
97. It is surprising to me,
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:13 PM
Feb 2014

that so many here are shocked about this. When I was demonstrating against the VW there were about 200 of us. Later we found out that half of us came from the intelligence services. There are a lot of different ones. They probably even took pictures of each other without realizing that they were in competition.
OWS suffered from the same. Those, who were discovered, showed a clear desire to provoke and stir up the rest.
So, why not the internet? We just have to take everything with a huge, huge grain of salt. IMO

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
185. Yes. As it became evident that the OWS might be shut down perhaps with police brutality,
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:34 AM
Feb 2014

a few of us oldsters from the 'hood went to be present hoping that our presence would warn anyone contemplating any violence that we would not accept that. Of course, we were not the OWS types. We did not look OWS at all. One young man who looked like a police officer in civil clothes kept staring at me as if he was shocked. I think he recognized me from somewhere, and I suspect I know where. It is a place where the police and very respectable people often meet and where the very respectable people are rather in a position higher than the police. I am pleased to think he might have had a little more respect for OWS after that. He was definitely crashing the party to take names. I and my friends there to show support. I felt it was pretty clear that surveillance was in progress.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
114. But we don't have any of those here.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:04 PM
Feb 2014

No, not here.



Seriously though. I believe DU should have a rule requiring paid posters to disclose their status. If they are found to have been a paid poster and not revealed that fact those posters should be banned.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
124. That would be difficult.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:44 PM
Feb 2014

However, Wikileaks and Anonymous seem to enjoy exposing the kind of scum who would hang out on political message boards as paid posters.

If they received a list of identities posting on political boards from a known contractor it might make some interesting reading.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
187. Eventually, other DUers would catch on to them.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:37 AM
Feb 2014

In fact, they would be surprised about what people say about them in private DU e-mails to each other. Some of those paid folks post some good things. When they go overboard and make fools of themselves, they simply elicit laughter from the real DUers -- but in private.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
216. "Eventually, other DUers would catch on to them"
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:04 PM
Feb 2014

Yup!

Just like you caught on to that one guy/gal....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4566378

Did you tell skinner about your insanely awesome detective skills of being able to identify paid shills and infiltrators?

Thank gawd for REAL DUers like yourself!



LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
239. You seem upset about the wrong thing
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:10 PM
Feb 2014

Here is (more) evidence that our own government is engaged in psyops against its people, yet the thing you seem upset about is that DUers are concerned that it could/has happened here. Very odd.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
247. There's this
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:34 PM
Feb 2014

Cali_Democrat (19,183 posts)
171. Holy fucking shit!!11!

You've caught them! This is really an EXPLOSIVE revelation!

You've discovered a paid govt operative on the DU!

This is definitely something skinner and the admins should know about.

I'd shoot them an email ASAP.

Well done!

Well. Fucking. Done.


 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
252. I wasn't upset at all
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:45 PM
Feb 2014

I was actually having a good laugh as I was typing that out.

The fact that people think they can actually identify paid posters on the interwebz strikes me as very amusing!

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
253. Goes back to my original point
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:47 PM
Feb 2014

The fact that our own government would do this is not what you chose to comment on...instead you tried to poo-poo the possibility that it has happened here. Telling.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
279. An individual violating the law is an unconscionable travesty.
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 06:50 PM
Feb 2014

The government violating the law? Nothing to see here, move along, go back to demonizing the individual.

 

Corruption Inc

(1,568 posts)
130. Rec,d, those propagandists are right here in this thread too
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:06 PM
Feb 2014

As others have said, they're very easy to spot too with all their personal insults and talking points.

That's the thing with propaganda, it never changes regardless of the topic. Propaganda tries to elicit an emotional response instead of a rational thought process.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
188. Exactly. The ones I suspect of being paid posters don't respond to questions about why
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:41 AM
Feb 2014

they think as they do. One of them posts a lot of quotes from here and there, most of which are talking points. Still, some of the information from that person is quite useful and interesting. Still, he or she should let other people know that what he or she posts is not his or her original thought. It is OK to post other people's comments and thoughts some, maybe even much, of the time. But always? That's where you begin to suspect a paid poster.

Also, as someone mentioned, all those personally insulting posts meant to hurt people's feelings. Those who post them are suspect.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
144. K&R
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:31 PM
Feb 2014
“Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.

How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. ”
~ Alan Moore, V for Vendetta




- Maybe that's why DU is in so much turmoil. Well, more than usual.

Little_Wing

(417 posts)
146. K&RRRR
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:43 PM
Feb 2014

Late to the discussion, but so appreciate this OP. Watching this country disintegrate into a police state is beyond enraging.

 

ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
148. They're not that covert to me. They're not hard to spot if they're talking, like here on DU. nt
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:51 PM
Feb 2014