There was a point to it, you know

[MannyGoldstein]

I wrote a post last night about Beatles lyrics that caused a hell of a fuss. I'm alternately appalled and amused by that thread.

I'm sure that clarifying my intent won't particularly change anyone's mind about the thing, or about me; but for my own edification, here goes:

What I'd hoped to show is that it's possible to go too far in deconstructing everything in search of nefarious stuff. We all objectify to some extent. Most of us are attracted to people for non-optimal reasons at some point in our lives. Most of us like to look at pretty people, which is why we groom ourselves - so people will look at us.

And sometimes people do bad stuff. It's bad to hate a person because of skin color, or to believe that a person is limited because they are a certain gender, or attractive, or unattractive. And when that happens, it should be dealt with. For the record, I think it's pretty rare on DU.

But sometimes, she's just 17 (you know what I mean) and the way she looks is way beyond compare. And that's OK, I think. We don't need to protect the world from it.

[RiffRandell]

1. I don't think you needed to explain yourself Manny.

I knew exactly what you meant.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. There are a lot of chunks missing from my butt after that thread

Granted, my butt is ample enough to withstand a fair amount of de-chunking, but still...

[Pretzel_Warrior]

4. you should see the other guy

[Scuba]

125. Yeah he did. There's a lot of DU members lacking the sarcasm gene.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

3. deconstructing? objectifying? Sacrebleu!

I will need to read some French philosophers to more appropriately reply to this.

But yeah....sometimes the in-group spends more time looking for the differences among them and qibbling over them rather than pointing gaze (male or female) to the out-groups which are the real cause for consternation.

DU being the in-group. Back to a tangentially Beatles-related callout:

"All we are saying.....is give peace a chance!"

[Drew Richards]

5. No explaining necessary you were just shining a light on hypocrisy in you usual eloquent style

and many fell for it hook, line and sinker showing themselves for what they are..bullies for their own agenda.

[Harmony Blue]

226. This is so true

and why DU is so diverse.

[Autumn]

6. People either get you or they don't Manny.

Most of us get you. The one's who don't, well they still seem to find you or your threads fascinating. You just do what you do cause you do it well.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. Sadly, some people choose to not get it.

It was pretty obvious what he was driving at but to some questioning their assertions or even questioning if you can question is cause for fault-finding.

[Autumn]

20. It does give them something to do and

that's a good thing.

[Vashta Nerada]

7. Things got a little quieter because of that thread.

I thank you for that.

[oldhippie]

22. Yep. nt

[1000words]

8. Don't neuter satire by explaining it

You amused some, pissed off others. Nicely done.

[KentuckyWoman]

10. Well I thought it was well played.

I know the opinion of a noob doesn't hold much. But it was obvious to me where you were going with it.

[MattBaggins]

11. You wanted to stir shit and start a flame war

nothing more

[Squinch]

12. +1

[LittleBlue]

36. Cheeky provocation is just his style

He's been that way since I arrived in 2007.

I get what you're saying but that's just how he's always expressed himself and probably always will. It's amusing and sometimes very insightful, and a great balance to all the depressing seriousness that happens on DU.

[1000words]

39. Manny being Manny ...

[rhett o rick]

37. Some people are looking to "flame". I call them self-righteous bullies.

As far as stirring shit, IMO that's what liberals do. It's conservatives that get so up-tight that they cant stand the diversity of opinions or ideas.

[FSogol]

152. Standard operating procedure for some.

[msanthrope]

160. You Better Believe It! nt

[HERVEPA]

180. You are clueless, nothing more.

[treestar]

207. This ^^^^^^^^^^^

[Hoppy]

13. Satire or not, I didn't get it yesterday and I don't get it today.

[sabrina 1]

27. Don't worry about it, most people here got it ...

[TexasTowelie]

31. It might make more sense if you are aware of Manny's posting history.

I may not agree with Manny every time, but his posts are some of the most thought-provoking by his use of irony and satire.

Welcome to DU!

[MattBaggins]

32. His stuff is not that thought provoking at all

Perhaps if you have the mind of a 12 year old his stuff might be impressive.

[TexasTowelie]

35. Fortunately, I don't get offended easily.

Otherwise, I would alert on your insult opinion that implies that I have a mind of a 12-year-old.

Please have a wonderful night.

[HangOnKids]

69. Gee, does Manny annoy you Matt?

Go Manny!

[pintobean]

79. I agree with HOK

[Feral Child]

229. Self-delete

[rhett o rick]

38. Then I suggest you put Manny on ignore. I dont think he will mind. nm

[cliffordu]

49. That's a fucking bummer.

No, really!!

[Fumesucker]

53. Do you find Monty Python funny?

If not then probably not worth reading any more of Manny's posts, you'll just get confused.

[1000words]

60. And now ...

[MattBaggins]

82. I knew Monty and Manny is no Monty

[Squinch]

114. Yes, but they need to suggest that if you didn't find it funny, you have no sense of humor.

Because that's such an original approach.

[840high]

182. No. I do find Manny funny.

[MattBaggins]

187. Meh.. he tries to hard

Last edited Wed Feb 19, 2014, 03:30 PM - Edit history (1)

more interested in his shtick than making a point.

[Feral Child]

230. Self delete.

EDIT: removed a provocative statement.

[joshcryer]

59. Manny set up a straw man about "dirty music."

The straw man was in response to some critics of objectification of women. See, the basic 'joke' was that his kid listening to "dirty music" was hurting the kid psychologically.

Today he has decided that he'd 'explain' just how 'clever' he was by coming up with that straw man. He claims it's possible to go, "too far in deconstructing everything in search of nefarious stuff." Absolutely, but the critics of the objectification weren't doing that. That's why it's a fucking straw man.

[Fumesucker]

67. Perspective is such a critical thing

As a straight man I definitely feel I'm being berated for something over which I have no conscious control to wit: what I find sexually appealing, that is my perspective right or wrong. I reached puberty when Leave It to Beaver was on Channel 2, that's when my concepts of what is sexually appealing were formed and they haven't changed all that much in the meantime except to slide even more toward finding intelligence sexy.

I'm open to explanation of why that feeling is wrong, give me a different perspective and perhaps I can see it differently.

[MattBaggins]

84. Oh fer fuck sake you have no control over yourself?

[Fumesucker]

89. You think sexual orientation is a choice?

[bettyellen]

104. Orientation. No. Day to day behavior - of course.

No one gives a shit what your personal life is. No one ever said that.

[Fumesucker]

107. Perspective

My perspective and I suspect that of quite a few men on DU is that I am being attacked for what I find sexually appealing. That is how I see things and in my opinion it's a source of a lot of the conflict we see here.

You have no idea what my day to day behavior is, how do you have any basis for criticism of my behavior?

I don't have a clue what it is you want me to actually do, I have never in my life bought an issue of Sports Illustrated, I watched maybe three movies last year and my only real media exposure is music since I don't own a television and loathe advertising. I could easily boycott everything but music and it wouldn't bother me.

Posting the SI OP wasn't done by me and I haven't posted anything like that on DU.

Remember, perspective, people can perceive the same thing very differently.

[bettyellen]

128. Did you really not see the thread about the SI threads making this a hostile place?

If not, and you actually do want to understand , it would be a good place to start.

I'm not judging your personal life - that's the point. No one cares- but it's a political site- and GD is probably not a good place for "one year at band camp" or "hey look - sexy!!" type stuff. Their is the entire net plus the lounge for that.

[gaspee]

112. Do you really not get it?

No one is complaining about people's personal sexual choices - what people are complaining about is that a political discussion board for a party that over half of its members are women, is not the time or place for it.

Publicly claiming the space for males by posting T+A that people know doesn't belong here is hostile to women who want to be treated as human beings who have something to say and not as objects of other people's fantasies.

It's not that hard to get.

Jeezus christ, the resistance to such a simple idea is mind boggling.

[VanillaRhapsody]

168. It's not mind-boggling to me.....it's quite obvious to me what the major malfunction is...

Some people want to talk the talk....they just don't want to have to walk the walk...

[VanillaRhapsody]

85. People who are racist say the same thing....it was so much better in the "olden days"

"why I could get away with saying and doing insulting things" to "certain" people" "they didn't seem to mind in those days....darn rabble rousers"

but YOU don't get the relationship....

[Fumesucker]

90. Do you think sexual orientation is a choice?

[VanillaRhapsody]

91. What does that have to do with what I just said?

I am pointing out that you sound EXACTLY like racists I have heard who say almost the same thing about Black people!

Why I was born in the "olden days" people could say whatever they wanted....so don't blame me for how I act today....

[Fumesucker]

93. When did you choose what turns you on?

[VanillaRhapsody]

94. I am NOT changing the course of this conversation....no matter how hard you try...

I know racists who LITERALLY believe that it was MEANT for them to be superior to Black people ALL Black people....and therefore they are MADE to feel that way....They are SUPPOSED to feel that way...its how "God" intended....SOOOO they think they are BORN that way.....

[Fumesucker]

95. When did you choose what turns you on?

[VanillaRhapsody]

96. Not going to happen....

So do you have an actual woman friend too?

Oh and I forgot....every racist I have ever met...denies they are one!

[Fumesucker]

99. When did you choose what turns you on?

No woman friend these days, a daughter and two granddaughters and a grandson though.

You're not going to make yourself a lot of friends on DU by insisting sexual orientation is a choice.

[boston bean]

101. This isn't about sexual attraction, it's about objectification.

get it right, try to stay on topic and not twist it into something it is not.

[Fumesucker]

103. Perspective

I'm sorry but I still find Emma Peel more attractive than Granny Clampett.

For some reason I get the definite impression that's considered bad by some DUers, that is my perspective and I think it's shared by quite a few men and even some women on DU.

It would be helpful if you would tell me what it is you want me to *do*, what action do you want me to take? Do you want me to boycott advertisers or media companies or something? I haven't bought a Sports Illustrated in my life, including the bikini ones. I might have watched two or three movies last year, mostly I listen to music when it comes to media.

[boston bean]

106. I would like you to do is stop supporting

objectification, by substituting sexual attraction for what is actually being discussed... Objectification .

It's not helpful. And what I mean by support is that doing this frames the discussion in a way and derails from the actual topic. It certainly doesn't help those who are trying to discuss objectification.

[arely staircase]

113. y'all alienate people with accusations like that

I agree with you a lot more than fumesucker on most things. But this is a perfect example how the HoF folks (again people whose politics are closer to my own outside of gender politics). But here fumesucker has made a legit point and you respond with buzzwords about framing and deraling in order to objectify. Most of the world does not talk in whatever wave graduate school women's study feminist speak. That is what drves me nuts is your constant assault on language. It reached a nadir with the redefinition of basic scientific terms the other day.

[boston bean]

120. So, pointing out the difference and explaining

is somehow just so terrible?

[redqueen]

124. Constant assault on language? No, these are basic sociological terms.

Terms which explain relatively simple concepts that have been explained over and over and over and over.

There's even a handy video that been posted repeatedly just in the past few days.

Those who still don't get it simply Do. Not. Want. To.


And as for "graduate school women's study feminist speak"?

Might want to dial back the MRA talking points. This is SOCIOLOGY.

[arely staircase]

134. what is MRA?

[redqueen]

136. A couple of very informative links:

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2012/08/angry-men-feminist-agenda/2/

http://www.salon.com/2009/11/05/mens_rights/

As you can see, people who are actively involved in feminist issues have had these people on their radar for years.

One of their tactics is to frame any big scary elite librul book larnin words as "women's studies" blah blah blah. This helps to instill in readers who are already hostile to the material being discussed the sense that these concepts and terms iz jess too complicated and besides its just them radical feminists and why bother caring about that because third wave sex positive feminism! Hell that objectification stuffs is just a buncha gobbledygook, amirite bro?

Like I said, this concept - objectification - has been explained repeatedly. For decades. By sociologists. By feminists. By people who have studied the oppression of various groups and the methods used to propagate that oppression. Those who still don't get it have a reason why they're refusing to do so. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine for themselves what that is.

[arely staircase]

139. I was actually talking about "framing" and "derailing"

But your post was hysterical.

[Squinch]

116. When did YOU choose that someone needs to put photos of what turns you on in front of

anyone and everyone, whether they want to see it or not?

[VanillaRhapsody]

165. They are the He Men!....DO NOT tell them they aren't allowed to objectify women any

damn place they feel like it.


Back in the "olden days" people said and did horrible things to Black people too...and the EXACT same justifications were used.....they would even tell you that "some Black didn't even mind"!

[Squinch]

186. You say that this is sarcasm, but I am being told in another thread that the

reason that T&A pictures are not posted all over the walls of Democratic political offices is because a vocal minority is being Victorian. No kidding. That's almost verbatim. Check the conversation around this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4527535

So it's not really sarcasm at all. You are, unwittingly, accurately repeating their position.

[VanillaRhapsody]

197. I agree....just added the sarcasm because I didn't want it to be misconstrued that "I" was saying it

[bettyellen]

138. You nailed it- after mocking offense at watermelon jokes, he wrote a

Half assed apology arguing that hey maybe African Americans could lighten up. At the same time conceding he hadn't really given the topic much thought at all- despite it being his second thread mocking the subject. Who writes thread after thread mocking shit they demonstrate they have no knowledge or understanding of? And then to come back and "explain"? WTF, we got it yesterday just fine. He's ignorant regarding feminism and wants to stay that way. Fear and ignorance. Poke fun of the other Fodder for morons. Dice-Clay, not Monty Python.

[Squinch]

115. Famesucker, this has nothing to do with your sexuality, and you know it.

This has to do with the fact that you wouldn't post T&A pictures in a place that you share with women in real life, because you know that would be ridiculously disrespectful. Yet there are some who feel compelled to post them here, specifically to show just how much disrespect they feel for the women they interact with here.

And here is Manny to tell us how "oversensitive" we are for pointing out that fact. And then, in typical Manny fashion, to pretend that he was doing nothing of the sort.

[VanillaRhapsody]

166. As soon as I saw the first one...I knew it would be followed by another half-assed

back pedal retraction....with a very sarcastic apology...

[jeff47]

161. So if you see an attractive woman in church, you have to rip her clothes off and fuck her, right?

Right then and there. It's just something you have no conscious control over. She's sexaully appealing.

No? You mean you have self-control?

Then use it.

No one is saying you can not find women attractive. Heck, spend all day looking at porn. Enjoy.

What they're saying is you shouldn't shout "LOOK AT THOSE TITS!!!!!!" at an inappropriate time, or at an inappropriate place.

[Squinch]

188. WWBD?

"What would the bonobos do?"

[gollygee]

213. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

OMG that makes this thread worthwhile.

[bettyellen]

144. It's bizarre that gassing off on topics you do not even understand ....

Whether it be racist jokes or objectification (both of which he betrays ignorance of) is lauded here. He might have something to say- or "explain" if he wasn't painfully out if his depth. Instead it's just hostility with a side of awkward.

[kcr]

14. Right, those throngs of Feminists bagging on Beatles songs were getting out of hand

You'd hoped to show it was possible to go too far. With a ridiculous parody that played right into the stereotype that some on DU take seriously and use to smear other DUers all the time. Including yourself apparently, with that last sentence. The man hating feminists who don't want anyone looking at women and finding them attractive is old, outdated, and strait out of the Rush Limbaugh playbook.

[Squinch]

15. But now he's pointing out all his reasonable goals for the thread. While blinking innocently.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

16. Uhhhmmmm

[dionysus]

154. it was a nice followup to the thread making fun of the fried chicken issue from last week..

[VanillaRhapsody]

167. there seems to be a pattern doesn't there? I noticed it too ..

Not to mention all the fighting about "White male privilege" .....now we KNOW why....it is painfully obvious.

[JI7]

17. kind of like Republicans who said it was just Food

[VanillaRhapsody]

87. Yeah....what's so racist about food? Why you've gone too far now....I cannot even joke

racially with fruit anymore....dammit!

[bettyellen]

105. This thread feels like a Paula Deen plantation themed wedding -

We should be happy we've all had it explained to us that it's a fun theme.

[Squinch]

122. Yes. We are just being silly.

[TDale313]

18. I got where you were coming from, I think,

And appreciate the explanation. But just a couple thoughts, for whatever they're worth (probably not much)

1) When tensions are already high (as I'm sure you know they have been) essentially telling someone they're overreacting and should just get over it? Doesn't usually go over well. Especially when just aimed at one side.

2) I don't think your post was meant in bad faith, or that it was misogynistic, but there have been enough on DU lately that have felt that way by enough posters for it to have become an issue for some of us. When it's mentioned, it's often either shouted down or laughed off. Yeah, it's a thing.

3) you're still the best

[hfojvt]

19. as such though

you were creating a mocking reductio ad absurdum for the people who take their deconstructing seriously.

For those on DU who take things like the SI swimsuit issue as a great evil, and would expect to find people who would fight WITH them and against things like that, rather than mocking them and belittling their efforts.

You created what could easily be seen as a strawman, slippery slope argument. If they object to porn and object to SISI then omigosh they must also object to the Beatles, and if they did that, it would be the end of the world.

"Pornography is not made to educate, but to sell, and, for the most part, what sells in a sexist society is a bunch of lies about women and sex. Women are portrayed as enjoying being raped, spanked or beaten,; tied up, mutilated, or enslaved; or they accept it as their lot as women to be victims of such experiences. In the less sadistic films, women are portrayed as turned on and sexually satisfied by doing anything and everything that men order them to do, and what this involves is for the most part totally contrary to what we know about female sexuality; that is, it is almost totally penis-oriented, often devoid of 'foreplay', tenderness, or caring, to say nothing of love and romance."

"And how can it go on like this, senseless, entirely brutal, inane, day after day and year after year, these images and ideas and values pouring out, packaged, bought and sold, promoted, enduring on and on, and no one stops it, and our darling boy intellectuals defend it, and elegant radical lawyers argue for it, and men of every sort cannot and will not live without it. And life, which means everything to me, becomes meaningless because these celebrations of cruelty destroy my very capacity to feel and to care and to hope. I hate the pornographers most of all for depriving me of hope."

Have no idea whose words those are, they are just quotes from an old notebook of mine. A notebook where I did not bother to cite a source.

And, of course, SISI is a ways away from violent porn, but it also is basically the crass marketing of women's bodies.

[BainsBane]

21. Objectification is a cultural practice that reduces women to things

and thereby promotes inequality. That is the point. It has nothing to do with finding someone attractive. It isn't something "we all do." It's about treating women as objects rather than subjects, as this video makes perfectly clear. This should clear up any confusion. If people don't understand after watching this, it's because they don't have enough respect for significant numbers of people on this site (who rec'd WarrenStupidty's thread) to bother listening. It is because either 1) they don't care if others feel the threads are hostile; or 2) intend to create a hostile environment to exclude significant numbers of members, from feminists to men, gay and straight alike, who find those threads insulting and demeaning.

[Gormy Cuss]

23. Oh, I think that your point came across.

Boys will be boys and chicks should just lighten up. If that wasn't your point, you missed the mark.

Telling other DUers that they're taking it too seriously--excuse me, that they're going too far in deconstructing it -- is just a way of shutting down dissent.

[yewberry]

24. What you'd hoped to do vs what you did:

You might have hoped to "show is that it's possible to go too far in deconstructing everything in search of nefarious stuff."

What you did was reduce the concept of objectification to the point of being ridiculous. You essentially told me (a no-wave, non-HOF, sex-positive feminist) that you think objectification isn't really a bad thing. So yeah, fuck that.

Paul would not approve.

And if you are thinking about making a wrong impression with that thread... no worries. Not a wrong impression. Just a bad impression. Nice work.

[Lex]

25. I remember my neighbor protesting he wasn't being racist while mocking black folks

like the Rev. Al who is always upset about something (he said), and that I was taking things way too far by being offended by his mocking.

Sorry but it read a lot like that.

[BainsBane]

26. +1

[rhett o rick]

46. So you think Manny was mocking? Who was he mocking? nm

[geek tragedy]

48. He was mocking people who objected to GD being turned

into a wall of bikini pin-up photos.

Because, you know, women who complain are such a drag, man.

[rhett o rick]

50. Really? He really said that? Please give me a quote. nm

[geek tragedy]

57. His words:

What I'd hoped to show is that it's possible to go too far in deconstructing everything in search of nefarious stuff. We all objectify to some extent. Most of us are attracted to people for non-optimal reasons at some point in our lives.

He's referring to those he feels stepped out of bounds by protesting objectification, and following that up with an uninformed discussion of objectification that inaccurately assumes attraction and objectification are the same thing.

[joshcryer]

61. Watch it. You wouldn't want to go too far deconstructing everything!

Gotta be careful, tread lightly.

[geek tragedy]

63. If Manny has ever objected to sexism from someone at DU

it has never been observed. In fact, just say "Hillary Clinton" around him and see how feminist he is.

[joshcryer]

64. Greatist satirist on DU!

Or so suggests the self-congratulatory hivemind.

[MannyGoldstein]

66. Um, do you know who founded the Elizabeth Warren group?

Last time I checked, Sen. warren was a woman. Moreover, she supported gay marriage well *before* 50% of Americans did.

Of course, if I'd known that Warren was a woman, or that she supported gay marriage, I'd have never founded the group.

[geek tragedy]

68. Doesn't take much to support

women one is in agreement with.

[MannyGoldstein]

70. So my non-support of a woman I disagree with

demonstrates I'm against feminism. Which is not mitigated by my raging support of a woman I agree with.

My intellect feels so puny in comparison to yours.

[BainsBane]

77. I wouldn't say that

but I would say mocking issues of objectification and concerns about turning DU into a hostile environment shows that you have disagreements with aspects of feminism, such as advances won by the women's movement decades ago through equal opportunity laws.

[VanillaRhapsody]

88. Yes...you even have a woman friend....check!

that makes it all better....

[bettyellen]

146. Some of your best friends, LOL.

[MannyGoldstein]

156. But not yours, eh?!

You're funny.

[MannyGoldstein]

72. E.g.,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024513544

[geek tragedy]

73. That person was trying to be clever and

call out women who protested objectification as being hypocrites for wearing makeup.

They failed.

[boston bean]

102. He's quite confused about the real difference between sexual attraction

and objectification. That's fucking clear as a bell.

[rhett o rick]

150. He is better at words than I am but you are certainly proving his point. Seeking the slightess

thing to justify your outrage. How dare he say "that it's possible to go too far in deconstructing" to find something to be self-righteously offended by, and therefore justify attack. It appears to me that some are here only to find something to attack.

Interesting that you wont put him on ignore. I guess you want to closely monitor his every word, hoping beyond hope to find something to justify an attack.

[geek tragedy]

153. he pulled this crap when the discussion was harassment of women in public.

there was a PSA from INDIA, and a bunch of men felt like they were being oppressed because publicly ogling and leering at women was being criticized. And, of course, anyone who disapproved of men ogling/leering/harassing women in public was labeled a prude by the men's rights crowd around here.

So manny decided to side with the poor oppressed men who would face disapproval for ogling women

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4220760

Manny is very reliable at siding with men over women here at DU on these issues. He's never taken the concerns of women here seriously.

[MannyGoldstein]

58. Relax

We all *just know* it's true. In our guts.

[rhett o rick]

151. I see they have a "swarm" thing going. nm

[VanillaRhapsody]

170. I see you have decided which "swarm" you want to be associated with...THANKS!

Not that I am surprised at all....

[bettyellen]

177. You mean the 160+ on the thread about the hostile

Enviornment deliberately created here in GD by posting T&A? Going to write off a huge segment of DU and ignore the thread so you can pretend it's all about anyone caring about anyone's sex life? Do proceed with your delusions, cling harder!

[VanillaRhapsody]

169. Yeah....thats what all the bigots say about Black people too!

We just know its true in our guts!

[redqueen]

54. +1000000000000000000000000000

[zeemike]

28. No need to explain, I got it

And so did most people...even the ones who hated it.

But there comes a time when you have to say enough...this has to stop before we tear this place up...and you were just pointing out why they need to tone it down.
And I think it did help a bit.

[VanillaRhapsody]

172. then YOU would be wrong...

but thanks for letting us know which position you take!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. "which is why we groom ourselves - so people will look at us."

Then there are those who don't,...but keep quiet about it.

[2naSalit]

47. ...

[LittleBlue]

30. K&R. You took a lot of abuse in that thread

Glad to see it didn't deter you.

[DeSwiss]

33. Manny please explain your explanation.

- And after you've done that, could you also answer: Why?

Many people have been dying to find out the answer to this!

K&R

[obxhead]

34. What amazes me is that a thread on TPP

can go ignored here.

It seems on that [TPP] issue, you either hate the the deal we can't see or you celebrate Obama for his effort to force it through.

The Beatles..... FFS, last I saw (12 hours ago) that thread had 250+ posts.

Yeah, I know the post was about more than the Beatles and their music, but just the same..... We have shit going on that will DESTROY the middle class going on. Priorities people. When the middle class fails, the globe fails. It's just that f'in simple.

[rhett o rick]

44. Manny is a lightening rod for the self-righteous bullies. nm

[MattBaggins]

86. He is also one of them

[rhett o rick]

149. Then why dont you put him on ignore? Or do you seek an excuse to ridicule and mock? nm

[VanillaRhapsody]

174. Would you tell Black people that if he insulted them? "Just put them on ignore"

How about if he were mocking Gay people?

but its AOK in your book when it is women!

[Squinch]

202. I believe Manny is the one who has posted numerous threads about the

threads he finds objectionable or too "deconstructive." It is really Manny who should be putting people on ignore. His is the most active voice in these two threads about what he is finding objectionable.

But, clearly, instead he seeks an excuse to ridicule and mock.

[rhett o rick]

204. Clearly projection. While Manny may find some posts objectionable, ridicule and mocking are tools

of the Self-Righteous Posse that follows him from thread to thread hoping to catch him saying something that justifies their bully behavior. Their goals are alert, hide, lock, PPR and grave dance.

But you are correct in the fact that he and we should all put the Self-Righteous bullies on ignore. They never add to discussions. Ask one what they think of the TPP or the LX pipeline and see what happens. Ask them if they support ALEC's position on the TPP. That will make them spin.

[Squinch]

208. Clearly basic observation. And you made the rules about "quit yer damn complainin and just

put anything you object to on ignore while you are shutting up."

Down thread, someone mentioned that the vile and lifeless tea baggers who have a whole site devoted to stalking DU simply LOVED Manny's threads. I checked, and the information is correct! Manny is their new hero!

So congratulations to Manny for garnering new fans.

[rhett o rick]

211. I am disappointed at your total misrepresentation of what I said. I guess it makes it easier

for you. I dont put people on ignore because I disagree with them. Again, projection. I very much enjoy debating with those that want to honestly debate. But those that are here to self-righteously bully others, I have no use for. You know those that wont commit to discuss the TPP or XL Pipeline, but seek to eliminate opposition by alerting, hiding, locking, and the PPR methods. It would be very interesting to see just who here does the most alerting. I bet it's the Self-Righteous Posse.

[Squinch]

212. You know you're going in circles, don't you? You tell people to put those they object to on

ignore. I say that the one who is voicing his objections is Manny and by your rules the onus is on him to ignore, you say that is projection.

Okie dokie, then.

"Those that won't commit to discuss the TPP or XL Pipeline." I guess you have been appointed the police of which issues are allowed to be discussed here (.. in your mind...)

And finally, though you admit that you have no idea who does the most alerting, you have decided that you will be mad at a particular group for alerting. Even though you don't know if they do a lot of alerting. But still they make you mad with all that alerting. That you don't know if they do.

Enjoy the silliness. I'm sure there will be more thought spirals in your response to this, but I don't have any interest in pursuing this conversation further.

[rhett o rick]

218. Once again you change my words. I suggest that the bullies be put on ignore.

You know them because they stalk people and alert, hide, lock and go for the PPR.

"I guess you have been appointed the police of which issues are allowed to be discussed here (.. in your mind...)" I dont care what issues are discussed. What I dont like are those that attack DU posters but DO NOT address issues. Their purpose is clearly to disrupt.

[bettyellen]

214. but you're pissed off that Manny is mocked and ridiculed by DUers? and loved by Tea-Baggers?

I thought you LIKED mocking and ridicule. Damn, I'm doing in wrong yet again?!?!

[VanillaRhapsody]

173. so sit back and SHUT UP women....right?

take off those shoes and get back in that kitchen....while the menfolk discuss the REAL important stuff!

[obxhead]

200. You're god damned right!

Of course not. I've never said that and never will. In fact if women ran more things, especially our government there would likely be far more love than war in society.

Who's in the kitchen and what we listen to will be a moot point though after TPP/TTIP is forced through. We won't be able to afford the luxury they call food after they become law.

[VanillaRhapsody]

201. So we should SHUT UP until....YOUR pet issue is addressed with the respect YOU think it

deserves...

You think this because objectification doesn't HURT YOU....

Would you tell the LGBT community to shut up and wait till TPP is discussed to YOUR satisfaction?

Would you tell the Minority community to shut up and wait till TPP is discussed in GD to your satisfaction?


Because NO ONE discusses TPP in GD anymore right?

[obxhead]

209. No I don't think you should shut up

Clearly you feel that way about me though.

Have a wonderful night. I'll be barefoot in my kitchen preparing a wonderful dinner.... While I can still afford a house that has a kitchen. Gotta savor every meal.

[Orrex]

40. The Tiffany cover of that song was much more offensive than your thread.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

43. omg. you are right. yes. yes. I do think we found something more offensive. Proof here:

[2naSalit]

51. Yup! That would be proof right there!

Funny story...

She came careening into a small city I once lived in (had a show at the college) and when that was over I guess she wanted some more attention. I was at a locals bar playing pool with some pals and she came floating in wearing her leather pants, a tank top and a black string of feathers thingy, tried real hard to get noticed by the working class folks who had no clue who she was. When she realized nobody gave a rat's behind, she left in a huff. After she left all the guys were looking at each other wonder what the heck that was all about. (I didn't find out until the next day when someone told me her bus was outside).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

56. ... lol ...

can she spell -clueless- ... poor thing. I had forgotten how bad she was until this thread. Hey!

[Blue_In_AK]

41. I thought it was a great post, Manny,

and your intent was abundantly clear.

[2naSalit]

52. I thought so too.

And I found it rather amusing.

[jtuck004]

42. He who laughs last

didn't get the joke - so sayeth the sign at the rental store.

Nice of you to give peace a chance, however, as someone else said.

I have nothing original

[rhett o rick]

45. The problem is that we have a lot of faux liberals posting here. Closed-minded conservatives

poising as liberals. I think a liberal should be able to discuss just about everything. But here there are certain issues that bring out the self-righteous bullies.
I have to give you credit Manny because you are willing to take the risks that a true liberals should. I am ashamed to say that there are some subjects that I shy away from because if I dare to say the wrong thing I will bring down the wrath of the self-righteous bullies. I have seen good people run out of DU by the self-righteous. Instead of putting you on ignore, they want to smite you so they stalk you waiting for a mistake or misunderstanding that they can exploit. They get their thrills from hiding, locking and, of course, the PPR.
Dont you dare let them change you.

[bettyellen]

140. Risky asking African Americans to lighten up because it never occurred to him

That watermelon jokes are hostile?
Yeah it is sort of risky advising others how to feel when you admit you've never given the topic any thought. You kind of come off as a clueless ass.

[rhett o rick]

148. So I am a "clueless ass"? I guess you are stepping forward to prove my point.

Some here want nothing more than to find something, anything to justify attacking others with name calling and ridicule. They think that if they ridicule and call people names enough they will drive them away and thus win the day. Sadly that is sometimes true.

[bettyellen]

158. If you post suggestions to people on topics you're

Admittedly ignorant about- IF you do that, you would come off as a clueless arrogant ass. Have you? I don't know.

[VanillaRhapsody]

178. YES you are if YOU think that calling others NOT"true Liberals" for taking the opposing position

...but you don't like it when it is done to YOU! Apparently everyone who disagrees with you on this issue isn't "Liberal enough....

You want to be able to sling labels around...,..but don't DARE label you? u said upthread that people who are not accepting this are not "true Liberals"....

[VanillaRhapsody]

176. "true liberals".....do you really want to go down THAT road?

Are you saying that ALL the MEN and women who have opposed this are not real Liberals?

[joshcryer]

55. "deconstructing everything in search of nefarious stuff"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. I liked it. It was funny.

I think the term flamebait is an interesting term. It implies that there are flames running around out there, looking, looking, looking for some kind of fuel.

Maybe the problem is the flames looking for a raison d'etre, and not the conversations that fuel their rage.

[VanillaRhapsody]

179. and maybe YOU are wrong....

maybe they just happen to be right and YOU are wrong!

[Chaco Dundee]

65. right

Inferiority complexes do make one overreact on many things in life,but on something that simple?

[1000words]

71. What we do need to protect the world from is ...

"loosely-fitting unisex pantsuits."

Freakin' poetry, that is.

[BainsBane]

78. I thought it was the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

That forms the legal basis for EEOC laws prohibiting a hostile environment.
Isn't that what folks here are determined to protect yourselves from? All that radical LBJ stuff is just so preachy.

[fleabiscuit]

74. I'm still not sure you are not a woman.

Not that it matters.

[MannyGoldstein]

75. That's an interesting thought.

Maybe I am a woman. I don't actually remember my bris... perhaps there's a reason why...

[Pretzel_Warrior]

80. I'm still not sure you are a troll

not that it matters. Chris Christie is a bridge troll and people still like him.

it would be funny if you were a seabeyond sockpuppet

[fleabiscuit]

147. No worries.

It's not about you.

[Botany]

217. P.W.'s post needs extra props for the use of "seabeyond sockpuppet."

seabeyond sockpuppet

seabeyond sockpuppet

seabeyond sockpuppet

seabeyond sockpuppet

seabeyond sockpuppet

[JDPriestly]

76. But it is unfortunate when people buy into the corporate stereotypes about what is and is not

attractive.

[adirondacker]

83. I'm just glad you didn't pull out the Big Ten Inch!

[boston bean]

92. The purpose of the thread was to show your support,

you're such a cool dude, for those who can't seem to grasp the concept of objectification.

by using a subject that wasn't even being discussed to rally the troops, you wanted to show solidarity with, but for some reason felt uncomfortable doing so in the threads where objectification was being discussed. There is nothing new about this tactic. In feminist circles it is a constant derailment tactic, a chance for the guys to high five, and fight back against those persons who tend to be a bit more enlightened. A way to keep the chains of oppression tight.

Thanks for nothing Manny.

[defacto7]

97. Manny, You're our DU pastor!

Like our pastor should, he teaches us with parables. And unlike the bible parables, they actually mean something.

Bless you Pastor Goldstein. (or should I say Rabi Goldstein? Pastor sounds more like folks round these parts.)

[JTFrog]

98. mainly because half the people I was with believed it until I explained the situation to them

[pnwmom]

100. That song was written from the point of view of a twenty-something, not a fifty something.

We don't need to protect "the world" from "it." But sometimes we need to protect 17 year olds from dirty old men.

[JustAnotherGen]

108. If you say so!

[The Straight Story]

109. Deconstructing everything

The scene is a college dorm and our two new missionaries are Anna and Beth:

(knocking on door)

Amy: Hi..uh can we help you?

Anna: No, but we can help you. I am Anna and I see you are wearing the chains of the oppressor and myself and Beth are here to help you break them.

Amy and Sandy: What?
Amy: The only thing I am wearing is a dress to the dance tonight. Thank you goodbye!

Beth: Heed our words and open your eyes! That dress you have on was created by men to enhance your figure and how you appear, the makeup you have covered up with is a veil of oppression and objectifying you - you are being painted to be presented to the male of the species for his sexual gratification.

Sandy: You mean men will notice us at the dance tonight? Like the guys over at sigma delta alpha?

(Anna and Beth look sadly at one another and shake their heads)

Anna: A dance? The good book says such things, especially when combined with makeup and dresses, is likened to a female apocalypse brought on by the demon Manispig. Your lives will be terrible if you continue on this path. Yes, those men will 'notice' you if that is what you want to call it. They will lust after you, want to have sex and thus use your body their desires...

Amy: Go on....please, proceed

Beth: Men are the reason you are spending money on make up and dresses. You are selling yourself to them as a product, to be purchased and used solely for their pleasure. Women in our society - well just look at magazine covers. Does it strike you as odd that they don't have women on them who look like they just woke up? They don't care about the contents of women, just the packaging. If a man is attracted to you and wants to use you for his own pleasure is that what you want? Don't you want to be desired for what is inside of you? Since a man wants to be inside you shouldn't he see that as the most important part?

Sandy: We're going to a dance. We want to be noticed. And we plan on scoping out some men we want to have sex with, and trust me when I say we plan on looking at some packaging ourselves.

Anna: So...you are atheists? Can't you see how what you are doing is destroying the rain forests? They test that make up on rabbits and cut down the amazon so you can enjoy others looking at you.

Amy: They cut down trees so I can wipe by butt too, but I am not going to stop.

(Slams door)

Beth (looking horrified): So they libertarians and atheists? What has become of this generation sister Anna?

Anna: It is shocking my friend. We have our work cut out for us. They seem to believe they have a mind of their own and desires of their own. They do not understand that the desires they have are wrong and controlled by men who don't wear makeup or dresses.

Sandy: I think we are needed at this party. We should follow them to it and invade the den on iniquity. We have truth and the word with us.


Tune in next week for the next thrilling episode "Party of the damned"

[Sheldon Cooper]

110. So, it was just as stupid and asinine as I thought?

I'm glad you cleared that up.

[gollygee]

111. +1

[OffWithTheirHeads]

117. FWIW, I got it, loved it, shared it.

[JoePhilly]

118. Its a tough job being one of DU's High Priests of Liberalism.

I wonder if FDR would have posted that OP?

[Squinch]

123. Or Elizabeth Warren.

[JoePhilly]

127. +1

[rhett o rick]

219. I am guessing you think it's soo much easier to be a conservative.

[TBF]

119. I'm often a fan of your OPs

and I know you were just trying to calm folks down.

But tension can be so high at times that even Gandhi would have a hard time cutting through it.

[Warren Stupidity]

121. so do you think that feminists have gone overboard in their control and domination of media and

culture?

'cause I'm just not seeing that.

[JustAnotherGen]

126. Now now Warren

You know we feminists have our boots on the necks of men everywhere!

[RBStevens]

175. +1

[Bonobo]

129. I hope you see how quickly now certain people will throw tar and feathers at you.

Absolutely hate-filled accusations from people that are certain that you have exposed yourself as a woman-hater all now and forever fly your way unless you mea culpa for the next couple of months or years.

You have, quite simply, become a handy foil, a useful tool, a pile of wood that they will build into a rickety soapbox.

You... Manny... have ironically been "objectified" and are no longer human.

On the other hand, if you can learn to sustain your humor with the bitter irony of the situation, you should be okay.

[JustAnotherGen]

130. Over a web site?

On the other hand, if you can learn to sustain your humor with the bitter irony of the situation, you should be okay.

A bunch of people who can't see each other, touch each other, and don't really figure in each other's lives?

I don't know about you Bonobo - but I don't get why anyone would let tar and feathering or support from a social and political commentary forum get to them. It's just the internet. It''s only a web site. It doesn't really mean anything or hold value in the day to day lives of those who participate.

Or am I wrong? It's something more than that? Or - maybe I'm just different. . . and I don't get an emotional payoff good, bad, or indifferent from DU?

Not being snarky - just trying to put in perspective.

[Bonobo]

131. If you have been here a decade or more, it becomes a part of your presence, your identity.

When people ruthlessly smear that identity, it creates injury. Maybe not as severe as if we were in physical contact, but injury nevertheless.

[JustAnotherGen]

133. Hmmm

I'm a founding member for an online support group for women in step - recently stepped down (two weeks ago) from anything and all to do with site Administration, moderating, etc. etc. We literally called each and every member to verify them before allowing them into our inner crew. One of the key things was the connections women made offline via that forum - our 'get togethers' in some circles are legend.

It was actually one of our members there that showed me the way to DU back in 2003 and that used to post links from there in our Political and Social commentary boards. Around the time I finally joined in 2007 - I believe she was given the boot (we have a mod boot at my 'old' site for that reference) from here. We connected like that - we spoke to each other, met each other face to face.

The Beginning Again girls (post ltr break up) could still help those in step - and WoW or GoW - etc. etc. BTDT had the T-Shirt. It's how folks got stuck in the stupid.



What I had to say to an Admin team member two Saturdays ago?

Amber - it's just a web site. No seriously- it's a freaking web site. It's not real. NONE of this is real.

And you know what? That fellow founding member that broke away from another site with us in 2001? She agreed. But she still has work to do there on herself and in her new 'in step' relationship.

We've been through a lot together that woman and I - and you know what? I don't need that web site to connect with her. I can pick up the phone or hop on a plan to Kentucy and see her whenever I want to.

And that's a real and valid connection. Maybe I'm odd in that I don't have folks that I see on a regular basis and speak to at DU.

Am I the only one? Or is there some super secret get together in real life and connect thing going on that I'm not seeing?

Because I'm seriously not seeing it.

It's just a web site. Just the internet. It's not real. If it's starting to give an emotional payoff - again - good, bad, indifferent -

It's being taken too seriously.

I wish you peace Bonobo. And what I've written comes from a place of absolute kindness. Don't ever lose your humanity to something as silly as a message board.

[Bonobo]

135. Thank you.

Your own warmth and humanity shines through your words beautifully.

I know it is just a website but there are real people on the other side of the tube and I try to remember it when possible.

[1000words]

185. You feel this website is so important ...

you feel it necessary to stalk folks:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125537456#post29

[JustAnotherGen]

192. Prove where I have

That said - Now I know who alerted on me.

[1000words]

194. It was alerted multiple times.

It's an ugly post and regardless of "proof," it displays your true motive and mentality.

[JustAnotherGen]

195. Uh

And it stood.

Where did I personally attack anyone?

Where did I break TOS?

If you can prove I broke TOS - then bring it up directly with Skinner/EarlG.

It's not been hidden - because I did not break a single rule. I also didn't use profanity - I know NOW that's a great way to get a hide and a 'vacay'.

[bettyellen]

143. Reacting to someone's behavior (as opposed to their exterior)

Is pretty much the opposite of objectification. I know many are still confused, but seriously- that is also not objectification. And the Beatles had nothing to do with nothing, and human beings are not compelled by hormones or DNA to display their shiny red asses here. Hope that helps.

[seaglass]

132. Manny I am a supporter of your politics but I'm a woman first. It is hurtful to me that people

who I respect their politics don't respect the essence of who and what I am. You may disagree that T&A posts create a hostile environment for women but the go to response doesn't need to be derision.

[bettyellen]

141. Yep, he decided to make GD more hostile with

That ridiculously clueless OP.
He thinks so little of feminism, that he doesn't even feel he needs a grasp of the issues to mock it. It's just a watermelon- lighten up!

[Starry Messenger]

181. +1

[hootinholler]

137. But BAGELS!

With the lox and the cream cheese! Are they ok for Goyem?

[In_The_Wind]

142. I truly hope so or I'm gonna be in a world of trouble.

[Autumn]

145. I tried the gefilte fish Manny suggested and this Goyem is fine.

I was not smited, I didn't even get heartburn. I noticed they had some candles in the food isle but I didn't buy them because I thought I might misunderstand the usage of them and get it, right in the kishke .

[Vashta Nerada]

155. 154 replies, over 3,000 views for this thread

Yet hardly a trickle from anyone here about the TPP, fracking, or the California drought.

That's very telling.

[Autumn]

157. Some people in this thread posted or recced some of those threads

others in here didn't. That's telling also.

[Vashta Nerada]

162. Yep.

The ones who'd rather fling poo didn't.

[Bobbie Jo]

159. Sorry, Manny.....

FWIW...I'm not a big fan of your satirical style.

Good satire relies on the truth of the matter to a large extent, so when you repeatedly go for the extreme analogy.....meh, it's just not that clever, IMO......

[great white snark]

196. I'm with you Bobbie Jo.

Manny's satire makes Chaucer roll in his grave.

[bettyellen]

199. Someone here compared a thirty year old

Pedophilia joke with Twain. Because people are still talking about it.
But people were talking about it only because Woody Allen's creepier side was being discussed.
Sort if like this thread- discussing the hostile underbelly of GD.

[bettyellen]

198. It's either an extreme analogies, or those he seems unaware are

Not analogies- IE: watermelon and gefilte fish!!
Satire needs to be smart to work, OY vey!

[Tikki]

163. Most young ones learn to separate 'words in a song as fantasy, kind of like a cartoon princess...

Some words, the lyrics, might amuse, comfort, energize, or understand the listener, but most listeners
make music an accessory.

If something evil is going on in someone's mind, music is an accomplice unaware.

Tikki

[jeff47]

164. I'm sorry your post demonstrating cluelessness did not get the reaction you wanted.

Perhaps you should think about why instead of insisting everyone else is wrong.

[laundry_queen]

210. This ^^^ nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

171. Meanwhile....

10 Dangerous Anti-Abortion Bills That Are Already Gaining Traction This Year

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/02/18/3299871/terrible-abortion-bills/#

There was an OP about this yesterday, but it pretty much sank like a stone while everybody was on the barricades fighting the good fight.

[Union Scribe]

183. Amid all these attacks on you

I love how some of the loyalists have shown up to pile on.

[BainsBane]

184. I find it fascinating

that the same people most hostile to the voices of women and people of color tend to be the ones who also express the greatest disdain for the Democratic Party, whose primary constituencies are women and people of color. And here I thought the goal of the site was to get Democrats elected. But what would I know? I'm just a woman.

[Union Scribe]

189. Lol.

If only misrepresenting people's words, assigning bad motives and online crap-flinging were Olympic sports. You'd get...silver. Your buddies are a little better than you at it but you're a force to be reckoned with.

[BainsBane]

193. It's an observation of behavior, of patterns

and many others have observed the same thing, especially the African American members of the site. This is not one you can put off on HOF, unless by my "buddies" you mean black folks. So yeah, they are my buddies too, but I'm guessing they are not the ones you like to publicly single out.

[Number23]

216. Hot DAMN

the same people most hostile to the voices of women and people of color tend to be the ones who also express the greatest disdain for the Democratic Party, whose primary constituencies are women and people of color.

Just kind of flabbers your gasts, don't it??

[JustAnotherGen]

227. +1 n/t

[H2O Man]

190. Gosh darned you!

I mean, bad enough that our culture suffered when those freakin' Beatles sang, "I'd love to turn you on" in that song about A Day in the Life. Literally millions of people had their lives utterly destroyed. Crime rates soared. LBJ resigned. And what of the children?










Recommended, and appreciated.

[Ohio Joe]

191. Well... It got high praise on the usual right wing web sites that watch DU

Do you feel good that you got them backing you?

[Squinch]

203. Really?? Well, that's logical.

[Squinch]

206. I looked. OMG, he's their HERO! He must be so proud.

[Number23]

215. And you just won the thread. Though it's so interesting that there is a loud small group

that are determined to characterize opposition to Manny's very obvious anti-woman and anti-minority stance as "anti liberal."



And these same folks also accuse Obama supporters of being "brainwashed." This shit is surreal it's so ass backwards nonsensical.

[Enthusiast]

205. I'm with Manny. K&R!

[Cali_Democrat]

220. As it was pointed out up thread....

many of the same folks that bash Dems constantly are also the same folks trying to start flame wars with women on DU.

That's very telling IMO.

The majority of Dem voters are women.....tear down Dems in office and attack women....

Very telling indeed.....

[MannyGoldstein]

222. Why do you love the TPP?

Why do you love the Catfood Commission?

Why are you cool with futile wars, crony Capitalism, and torture?

Who's really bashing who?

[Cali_Democrat]

223. Nice try, Manny

But you will not be able to find a single post where I said I love TPP or the Catfood Commission.

If you look at my past posts you will also see that I opposed the war in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. I'm also opposed to the drone program and torture.

However, I can find post after post from you CONSTANTLY bashing Dems in office and now you're going after women on DU.

You're the one doing the dividing and bashing for obvious reasons.

You've exposed yourself.

[MannyGoldstein]

224. So you're an enabler, not a "basher"?

"the emperor has no clothes, but let's keep that quiet for now.", eh?

Not the way I roll, sorry.

[Cali_Democrat]

225. I'm not an enabler or a basher. I'm a Dem.

Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2014, 03:22 PM - Edit history (1)

You, on the other hand, are somebody who would rather overturn the 2008 election than the 1980 election.

Your intentions are clear and YOU have no clothes.

[treestar]

221. You see it's an issue that can divide DU

and are hopping onto it. Trouble is this does not work. The left has always had this divide and it means nothing at election time.

Of course if Elizabeth Warren really ran for President, the media would slay her alive over her looks.

[NCTraveler]

228. What I find kind of funny in this...

is that even you have your own camps. I like just about all of your posts. I have recced, kicked, and added comments to many of them. I do not enjoy other posts of yours, including the one in question. Can you believe that? I don't like every single thing you do. Yet some here are convinced that you have to either love everything Manny does, or hate it. It is completely black and white. I think that is actually a reason for this current post, you agitated some members of the club. It has taken time and effort to build up the "Manny Membership" and you may have gone a little too far. You will correct course and all of your fans will fall in line.

As I said, I like almost all of your ops.

So to stay in line with the current du position on social status, I declare myself:

90% lover of Manny, 10% hater.